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McCain = Bush's Third Term

One of my major frustrations with the tack taken by Obama supporters in the blogs and the Media last week (the obsession with Sarah Palin, both on issues and the personal) was that it lost the most important political narrative coming out of the Democratic Convention - that John McCain represents George Bush's Third Term. To its credit, the Obama campaign fought hard to keep that narrative going, not getting caught in the Palin cul-de-sac.

For the most part, I am happy to see that Obama supporters in the Media and the blogs have come to realize that focusing on Sarah Palin is a self defeating approach (Palin became a standard for the GOP base to rally behind, performed extremely well in her speech and was perceived as unfairly attacked by many, if not most, Americans). This focus underlined the experience issue, an Obama weakness. But George Bush still seems an afterthought. For example, Ezra Klein writes:

[T]onight's speech was all about [McCain.] The policies are his qualities, the vision is his story, the vice president is his understudy. . . . When you stepped outside of McCain, however, there was very little to the speech. Over the course of nearly an hour, he managed to detail exactly three policies. Taxes, which he will push lower. Education, which he will make more competitive. And high energy costs, which he will solve with a drill and a dream. Where policies would ordinarily have gone, McCain instead substituted qualities. He's a fighter, he said. He's a patriot.

Indeed. Because John McCain is running for George Bush's Third Term, but can not say so. That is why Democrats must say so and CAN say so. It should be the central Democratic message of the next two months.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Imagine The GOP Convention Without Sarah Palin | Palin's Miranda Bashing >
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    IMO (5.00 / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:33:31 AM EST
    running for Bush's third term is really not that great of an idea. It makes the whole thing personal.

    Here's the problem I'm seeing with Obama's campaign:

    He's not making a case against conservatism. Conservatism is the problem not specifically Bush. Conservatism has failed the country. Anyone who holds the conservative philosophy will fail the country.

    He also needs to pivot and start talking about why liberalism is a great philosophy. Talk about the positives of liberalism. Don't use progressive, it means nothing to most voters.

    That begs the question... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Cairo Faulkner on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:04:18 AM EST
    ...is Bush a conservative? I'm not sure he is. The government has expanded under him, the constitution has been trampelled on, and the war on Iraq was a very radical thing to do. There are a lot of conservatives who are angry at Bush I think. They'll rally to defend him because he's got an R after his name, but the support for Palin (and new found support for McCain) from the conservative base is, in part, because they believe these 'mavericks' are the real thing.

    That energy and passion shouldn't be underestimated, and should be met with a passion of its own from the Democrats. I hate to sound like a broken record, but picking Clinton would have done that. I don't think Obama can on his own. Before Palin, I reckoned McCain was going to suffer from a low turnout. For many, many months the Republicans had an 'enthusiasm deficit'. They don't any more. That matters.

    Parent

    Modern conservatives are not (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:19:16 AM EST
    classical conservatives. Ron Paul is a classical conservative, a true "small government" libertarian.

    Modern conservatives not only believe that government shouldn't interfere with the creation and conservation of wealth, they are also quite willing to use government affirmatively to facilitate the creation and conservation of wealth. Now, in theory that's not so bad, right?  If more wealth is created, isn't that better for everyone?

    Well, if trickle down economics really worked, it would be just great.  But it doesn't, and the truly horrific fact about the last eight years is that the government has been used to force the trickle back up.  As the pie keeps shrinking, it becomes paramount to keep the wealthy's piece of the buy intact. Which means that everyone else's piece shrinks not just in absolute terms but in relative terms.  The disparity of wealth in this country is at its greatest point in more than half a century, and that's just fine with the Republicans, and with McCain. He didn't say one thing last night about inequality. And he won't. When he talks about fixing the economy, he's not talking about the average American.  

    We've got to go easy on the wealth generators otherwise they won't generate more wealth. So what if we have to keep giving them a bigger and bigger proportion of the wealth. Shouldn't we be grateful for the golden crumbs that fall off the plate.  And if after a while there are no more crumbs? Well, that's when government will refrain from interfering with your ability to start your own small business!

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:36:45 AM EST
    As I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    I disagree with yours obviously.

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:41:21 AM EST
    do you think that Bush was a failure simply because of who he was or because of his ideology?

    Parent
    Both (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:47:17 AM EST
    but that does not matter in terms of political messaging.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:49:01 AM EST
    then that's what needs to be sold. I see the McCain is Bush's third term as a repeat of what Kerry did in 2004. It hasn't worked before but I guess we can always hope it works this time.

    Parent
    Things are worse now (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:09:30 AM EST
    than they were in 2004 -- see, McCain is right about something! -- people were still in denial about the war's failures in 2004, Bush still had that heroic 9/11 aura (ugh) and the economy wasn't as bad.  

    This ain't no ordinary recession folks. People down here on Wall Street are rather freaked out, shall we say, by the failure of Bear Stearns, Lehman's serious problems (they're talking about doing a "good bank/bad bank" deal, the last resort of the truly desperate), the huge buy backs that other investment firms are doing for auction rate securities.  There is a fundamental upheaval going on at financial houses that people thought would last forever.

    And it ain't just working class folks losing their jobs. Bankers and lawyers are being let go in droves, and it's just starting. Remember the old joke about a conservative is a liberal who's gotten mugged?  Well, some liberals are conservatives who've gotten laid off. I'm not asking you to bleed for them; I'm just saying that the worst is yet to come, and even the master of the universe class going to get scared.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:06:10 AM EST
    but Obama is going to have to get people to trust him on the economy. You can't just expect circumstances to deliver the election. There were a million reasons to get rid of Bush in 2004 and they didn't happen.

    I keep hearing "things are bad but Obama's going to make them worse". Granted, I live in GA and I'm sure that skews things.

    Parent

    Right (none / 0) (#120)
    by Emma on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:40:11 PM EST
    I still don't get how Obama is going to make things better.  It's all about how McCain doesn't know anything about the economy.  Well, what does Obama know about the economy?  It's a big ol' mystery to me.

    Parent
    I think the GOP win many (none / 0) (#51)
    by Salo on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:25:48 AM EST
    of the intellectual arguments.

    Parent
    We shouldn't be having (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:31:23 AM EST
    "intellectual arguments" with the electorate.

    I'm not saying we should engage in the same empty rhetoric that the Goopers do. You can distill the issues into clear, short AND accurate points. That was one of Bill Clinton's great strengths. And part of every pitch -- and I agree, the Dems need to carpet bomb the talk shows, both on TV and on radio -- is the growing disparity between rich and poor.  The rich are taking more than their share to they can insulate themselves from loss, and they are taking it out of the pockets of you and your friends and your Aunt Louise.

    Parent

    Both, IMO (none / 0) (#16)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:47:18 AM EST
    Bush took conservative ideas that might not have worked anyway, ran with them, and turned them into utter catastrophes.

    It was like giving a bazooka to a three year old.

    Parent

    You said it much better than I (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:39:32 AM EST
    If they are going to go negative, tell what conservative policies have failed.  Saying "Bush's Third Term" isn't doing it, in my view.

    I also would rather see liberal policies touted and explained than see a negative message. This is our chance to do that well since we have a candidate people actually like to listen to.

    Parent

    I don't (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:44:49 AM EST
    know why the campaign isn't picking up on Bill Clinton's compare and contrast ad campaign from the 90's. You paint the GOP in a negative light and Dems in a positive light.

    Parent
    Obama made this case... (none / 0) (#125)
    by prose on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:29:32 PM EST
    In his speech.  He talked about the political philosophy and the problems inherent with it.  The truth is we just haven't heard much from Obama this week.  As things level back out and he gets some coverage again, I suspect that we'll hear him making this case a little more.

    Parent
    He needs (none / 0) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:38:04 PM EST
    to run ads that make his case not depend on speeches and rallies.

    Parent
    I agree completely (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Makarov on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:41:49 AM EST
    and think it was always going to be this way.

    Unlike BTD, it was also a part of why I supported Hillary Clinton. Hillary was able to really convince me she cared about the issues important to me and clearly explain her policies.

    I don't think Obama is as good at doing the same by a long shot. His slip of the tongue with Bill O'Reilly last night ("the surge succeeded beyond anyone's wildest expectations") is yet more evidence of that. His speech is highly nuanced and open to wide interpretation, that Republicans will use to their advantage.

    While BTD always believed, correctly, that Obama was the media darling, I never felt that was enough to win an election. Hillary proved time and again her ability to attract people based on the issues. This is how Democrats win elections, when issues trump personalities.

    Now, the Republican narratives are written - McCain, a straight talking maverick war hero is running on a ticket with another maverick, maligned by sexism. Watching McCain's speech last night, I wondered how anyone with an ounce of critical thought could vote for him. I quickly remembered I felt very much the same in 1988, 2000, and 2004. This election is going to be close, and it didn't have to be.

    Tell me the NEW policies Obama outlined in his (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by esmense on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:43:00 AM EST
    acceptance speech. The theme and the ideas that went beyond generic Democratic promises; more cops, more teachers, make college more affordable, higher minimum wage, pay equity,  health care, higher taxes on the rich, lower taxes on the middle class. All wonderful stuff, but basically a Clinton 3rd term.

    My point is this; Obama would have better luck pinning the Bush 3rd term label on McCain if he was, at the same time, doing a better idea of communicating what would be NEW (not just reactive, nostalgic or "historic") about an Obama presidency. What unique, new programs? What new challenges will be top priority? What is his unique vision for the nation's future?

    W ran as a "compassionate conservative" and backed those words up with specific programs; "the faith based initiative," "no child left behind."

    Clinton ran on "building a bridge to the 21st Century" and backed it up with job retraining, programs to make education more affordable, etc.

    "My opponent is just another Bush" is not a theme. It's a valid criticism. It gladdens the hearts of the bush-hating partisan base. But if you aren't defining exactly what YOU are in contrast, it doesn't have the kind of impact you need with the average.

    Obama touched on this (none / 0) (#13)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:45:35 AM EST
    when he paid tribute to the Clinton years as the last period of sustained prosperity and peace we've seen.

    And Hillary had that great line about how "Democrats know how to do this, we did it when President Clinton was in office."

    You don't have to label it Clinton III (although that would be FINE for me).  It's "Democrats KNOW how to make the economy work, we did it coming out of the recession of the early 90s (when another Bush was in office) and we'll do it again."

    Parent

    Where's his "New Deal" (none / 0) (#28)
    by esmense on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:57:00 AM EST
    the "New Frontier," the "Bridge to the 21st Century?"

    I agree that Obama did, and had to, call on the Clinton legacy and his party's legacy of achievement and competence to argue for his party's return to power.

    But he still needs a powerful theme and new proposals of his own. He needs to tell voters what the next step is for America. Specifically define HIS vision for the future, and simply define what an "Obama Democrat" is.

    Parent

    Agreed, (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM EST
    He needs to tell voters what the next step is for America. Specifically define HIS vision for the future, and simply define what an "Obama Democrat" but in spite of continuously being forwarned, Obama has been beating around the "bush" and still no "original" theme YET! The campaign is running the risk of falling behind in securing the electoral votes needed for a democratic win in November and they're still dilly-dallying!
    More substance, less style.

     

    Parent

    The bridge was good stuff. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by votus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:29:59 AM EST
    I wrote to Hillary last spring to suggest she provide us with her "vision" as winning candidates have done.  A shining city on a hill, a great society, a new frontier,  a bridge to a new century, and, yes, morning in America were powerful tools.  The leaders who so named their campaigns and projects demonstrated their visionary strength, their imagination and confidence in the future, their personal creativity and artistry, all part of the panoply of skills a  nation, a people, requires of its leaders.

    I believe Hillary would have fared better had she campaigned with a "vision" rather than a slogan, and I am afraid Obama's "Yes we can" and "Change" mantras fall short of "vision."  

    Obama, what does it look like?  What do you see up there?

    Parent

    Palin proves substance doesn't matter (none / 0) (#63)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:37:01 AM EST
    Interesting article in Salon (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    Interesting parallels... (none / 0) (#118)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:37:04 PM EST
    He's not a "New Deal" ... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:15:16 AM EST
    or "Great Society" style Democrat.

    I don't think we're ever going to have one of those again ... sadly.

    New Frontier ... maybe.  Bridge to the 21st Century ... sorta.

    But, like it or not, his political strategy was mainly to sell his personal magnetism.  And suggest that this would allow to raise an army of followers to help him fix the country.

    This is a problematic argument to make in a democracy,  and it's why half the party voted against him.

    Parent

    Magnetism or Idealism (4.00 / 0) (#101)
    by liberalone on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:37:42 AM EST
    I am not certain that his goal was to sell his magnetism, and I don't believe that his charm was the only reason that so many folks gravitate to him.  I believe he was selling an idea of a more inclusive, more transparent. more responsive government.  I think it was idealism and not necessarily his magnetism that attracted voters, especially the young folks.  His relative youth helped him in this respect.  His organizing and looks helped with the old school leftists and those praying for another JKF.

    Parent
    "Rock star" is not ... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:08:04 PM EST
    something you call a mere idealist.

    And we were sold that hard.

    I think you're right that his appeal is more as an idealist.  His base of support is much closer to Adlai Stevenson than it is to JFK.  

    Young voters, and college educated people.  The addition of African Americans allowed him to squeak out a narrow win in the primaries.

    But this isn't how he was sold.  He was sold as the magnetic leader who would rally a country.  Not as the bright college professor who would rally a wine tasting, which is more what he is.

    Parent

    Idealist is the last (none / 0) (#123)
    by oldpro on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:09:17 PM EST
    word I would use to describe Obama.  But it is descriptive of many he attracted to 'the movement,' whatever the Hell that is supposed to be.

    No one knows.  That's now the problem.

    That and he's not a fighting Dem.

    Parent

    The difference is... (none / 0) (#127)
    by prose on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:33:56 PM EST
    his policies haven't been enacted.  We've never had the health care plan he supports.  It's what we've been saying for a long time, because we've been right.  But our policies haven't been tried since the Clinton years.  

    Parent
    Obama should take all the (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:43:26 AM EST
    issues on which McCain claims to have been a maverick, and show how McCain's alleged differences with Bush are either insubstantial, or how he has changed his prior position to conform to Bush.

    On the fundamental question of the economy, what is McCain's difference from Bush?  He's going to cut earmarks.  How in God's name is he going to balance the budget by cutting earmarks -- earkmarks which HE himself has gotten, and that Sarah Palin has accepted.

    BTW, it's not just that Palin was FOR the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it. Even after she was against it, she didn't say thanks but no thanks to the money. She took the money to use for something else.

    So much for McCain's big economic difference from Bush.  Everything else he wants to do -- cut taxes, cut taxes, drill, drill, cut taxes, drill, cut taxes, a "get government out of the way of interfering" with peoples' economic difficulties -- is the same as Bush.

    Also BTW, one of the stories McCain told last night was about how tax hikes would adversely affect some couple trying to open a gas station.  This is an area where a personal attack on Palin might resonate: she and her husband failed to pay taxes on one of their own gas stations up in Alaska. They may still be delinquent.

    Good points... (none / 0) (#88)
    by santarita on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:09:46 AM EST
    At one point - McCain was more independent of Bush and the Republicans on the environment, immigration, torture, and even the war (not the decision to invade so much but Rumsfeld's mishandling of the occupation).  But then he always seemed to cave in to the Republican majority.  Maybe Obama can make some hay out of the gap between McCain's talking and doing.

    Parent
    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by JAB on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:49:40 AM EST
    needs to tell us what he is FOR.  I've asked this of my friends who support him and get blank looks. What is his main issue?  McCain=Bush III isn't going to work.

    John Edwards = eradication of poverty
    Hillary Clinton = UHC
    Dennis Kucinich = against abuse of executive power
    McCain = national security

    Heck, I can even tell you that Ron Paul = very little government / pull out of Iraq.

    What does Obama stand for?

    Obama stands for everything (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by fercryinoutloud on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:24:28 AM EST
    And nothing at the same time. That's a problem. You can't promise the world as Obama did in his speech and expect people to take you seriously.

    As for this McCain = Bush's Third Term. I don't think it will work. For one McCain is clearly distancing himself from Bush. He has a different approach to education and energy (yes he continues to mention the development of alternative fuels as did Palin even though the Left blogs refuse to acknowledged it). He is for expanding the child tax credit. And he is for shrinking government waste so other things can be done. Yes he is for lower taxes but who doesn't like lower taxes if higher taxes are not needed because you cut out pork? McCain says he will use the veto to rid us of pork, while Obama continues to rail against lobbyists which does little regarding pork.

    Obama tries to broad brush McCain as Bush when in fact McCain is not - and McCain continues to chip away at Obama's inexperience and shallowness. One is doing a meta-theme with no real details to back it up and the other is going right to the fabric of the opposition themselves. I think I know which argument will win and it isn't the meta-theme.

    I'm not a McCain supporter but I do believe it is important to look at election strategies and tactics with a balanced mind and not through the filter of a biased lens. FWIW I originally supported Edwards and then moved to Clinton before Edwards dropped out. I see Obama as a very weak candidate who is too middle of the road for my taste in governing.

    Like I said in a previous post, the average of the polls are tight and if McCain gets a bounce then this thing is tied. Looking at the previous leads Obama has held if we go to a tie it is easy to see which side has the momentum and which sides message and personal story is winning so far.

    Parent

    McCain... (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by prose on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:36:37 PM EST
    talks about alternative energy but has consistantly voted against it.  I wish some of you Obama-haters on this blog were half as critical in your thinking about McCain as you are about Obama.

    Parent
    Obama stands for Obama ... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:16:55 AM EST
    and that's both his blessing and his curse.

    Parent
    Obama stands for Obama... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:15:45 PM EST
    it is his curse IMHO! Personality cult is insufficient for a win. It may have worked in the primaries, but it sure has served the Republicans well!
    Efficiently opened the "Obama, maybe not", underscoring every flaw: personal, political message, campaign tactics, etc. etc.

    Thinking that the latter would be effective in the real, national election is a grave mistake that might lead to the grave of his campaign.

    No use talking about the "spilt milk" but then again, we HAVE TO revisit in order to make corrections. Sadly, revisiting to revise is not being considered, at least not that I can tell.

    To paraphrase one of his lines: You cannot keep doing the same thing and expect different results.
    Obama, please don't let those be Just Words

    Parent

    He (2.00 / 0) (#29)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:58:01 AM EST
    did a lot of this at his convention speech.  If you remember he started with McCain and the third bush administration, then pointed out that McCain was stuck in the same old conservative arguments of the last 30 years (thereby arguing against conservatism), moved on to the critique of the "ownership society" where you are left on your own, and then articulated a vision of government enabling communities, cutting down inequality, and a move towards what Martin Luther King would have called a beloved community.
    BTD is right that a lot of time and energy has been wasted on Palin (although I do think that she needs to be critiqued and the culture war narrative that the republicans are developing needs to be confronted) but Obama did develop a large critique of recent conservatism and articulate a much more open and democratic vision as the aim of his administration.

    Parent
    He (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by JAB on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:10:20 AM EST
    gave a laundry list of the Democratic platform (or at least, what they stand for in theory).

    He does not have a signature issue, aside from "hope" and "change". He does not show passion for anything besides revving up crowds to chant his name.

    Obama's speech could have been given by any generic Democrat.

    Again - what does HE stand for?

    Parent

    Not that you're (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:19:12 AM EST
    interested, but one of Obama's pet projects is education. He wants to give a 4,000 tax credit to any student wanting to go to college that first either serves a tour in the military OR does a prerequisite amount of time doing community organizing and work. Again, for those who are less interested in politics and fawning/comtemputous media coverage and more into what candidates want to do, there is a lot to mull over.

    Parent
    That is excellent (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by ineedalife on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:43:09 AM EST
    But I think the critique is that he isn't communicating this. Most Americans probably don't have a clue. They are blinded by the glare of his Oneness.

    Every day spent in sophomoric spats with the opposition VP is a day that he can't get his message across.

    Parent

    Education support for service was a Clinton idea (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by esmense on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:56:37 AM EST
    ("Hope Scholarships") I was glad to see Obama support the idea in a slightly different way. But he has to put policies like this within a new context -- tell people how they solve the problems of today and meet the challenges of the future. (As Clinton did with his "Bridge to the 21st Century.)

    Such themes may seem hokey and "uncool" -- but they are extremely effective communication devices.

    Parent

    Yep Hope scholarships (none / 0) (#124)
    by oldpro on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:28:43 PM EST
    were smashingly successful after a rocky start and a few adjustments.  Likewise, Clinton's Lifetime Learning credits.

    I can't document it with a link (maybe someone else can?) but I remember hearing that more low-income students were helped to go to college with this program than any other.

    If Obama could bring himself to mention the name "Clinton," he could piggyback on hope and Clinton's Hope Scholarships and make it his own issue now....give credit/take credit, so to speak.

    Parent

    I doubt (none / 0) (#67)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:45:09 AM EST
    that any generic democrat could or would have laid out that vision.  What Obama was laying out was a critique of the growth of inequality and the dying on the vine of our democracy, he outlined a series of proposals through which government could protect people from the market, and his campaign's efforts to organize and register is a real effort to expand the polity.  Obama articulated a country in crisis and offered an alternative vision from the american past to respond to that crisis.  Would you prefer that he only care about a "signature" issue.  That would be putting branding over substance.

    Parent
    I want him to communicate more quickly and (none / 0) (#80)
    by esmense on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:59:04 AM EST
    directly. He's running for office. Not conducting a seminar.

    Parent
    Marketing (none / 0) (#107)
    by liberalone on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:54:02 AM EST
    I agree that Obama needs to get pithy.  If the C-Span set represents a diverse group of Americans, then your comment is well noted.  

    Americans have become far too dependent on short answers and sound bites.  We don't appreciate thoughtful responses.  Obama needs a good marketing team to come up with pithy slogans like 'drill here, drill now.'  I don't think we can understand anything else.


    Parent

    Marketing and Advertising are America's native (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by esmense on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:35:34 PM EST
    art forms. Liberals and academics need to get over their disdain for it and understand that their fellow Americans appreciate, and are very well schooled in how to throw, a good sales pitch -- and, they are insulted by those who don't have enough respect for them to offer one. Americans enjoy being sold. We admire a man or woman who can make a good pitch and we're rightly distrustful of one who can't or won't.

    The sales pitch is our lingua franca.

    And, frankly, most of us pride ourselves on being able to tell the differance between bullsh** and a novel, attention-getting, dramatic, but valid, argument. We are connoisseurs. And, we are, for the most part, practioners.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#137)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 04:45:22 PM EST
    that Obama needs to do a better job of getting across his vision in shorter, crisper ways (although I don't know that advertising is america's native art form--it actually has a long european pedigree and americans have a lot of other cultural things going for them).  I was only objecting to the suggestions that he was offering nothing of substance and had no program.

    I think that the communication business will be especially important now that the McCain camp has decided that there only hope is to re-open the culture wars.  The question is whether Obama and his campaign can respond effectively (and frankly with enough subtle negativity to McCain/Palin) and promote a more positive vision of the future.  And on that I agree that the jury is still out.

    Parent

    I get (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:53:55 AM EST
    this too. I just about voting against McCain because Bush isn't running.

    Parent
    Pay attention... (none / 0) (#128)
    by prose on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:34:53 PM EST
    This same dumb talking point has been addressed over, and over, and over, and over.

    Parent
    Attacking Palin strickly on issues (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by cannondaddy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:50:41 AM EST
    could work.  Especially if it's issues which sour conservatives on her.  Like her windfall profits tax on Alaskan oil.  The "large portion" she returned to the people of Alaska was 1.3% of what they raked in.

    There's so much on Palin (none / 0) (#45)
    by magster on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:20:06 AM EST
    that it's still worth pursuing to drag down McCain.  Today there's the story of her refusing to speak to the press for the remainder of the campaign, more news on her ties to her ties to the Abramoff lobbyist also representing Wasilla.  Obama's campaign can and should stay above the fray, but her mounds of dirty laundry shouldn't be ignored either.

    Parent
    If we had real journalists (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:23:03 AM EST
    we could count on them to do some digging. {{sigh}}

    Palin's part of the "just say no to science" cultural conservative movement.  Isn't there a way to tie this kind of anti-scientific, dumbing down of education to the fact that we're falling behind in global competitiveness?

    Parent

    Assuming Obama is the (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:29:57 AM EST
    "media darling," is that enough if Palin is getting all the media attention, even if negative?  Election day is so very soon.

    Parent
    It's time for the Republicans own their failure. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by steviez314 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:53:09 AM EST
    I hate posting that again and again, but I think it speaks more to the anger people feel than just "Bush's 3rd term."

    It makes McCain more the " Generic Republican" than "the 3rd Bush."

    And how does he respond?  We havn't failed? (see mental recession, nation of whiners)

    And it makes people feel that a vote for Obama is them punishing the Republicans.

    I cannot believe they have (none / 0) (#32)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:02:32 AM EST
    let Gramm out of his cage so that he can continue accusing people with economic problems of being whiners.

    If THAT is not a sign that McCain is just more of the same, I don't know what is.

    Parent

    McCain/Palin Does Not Equal Bush/Cheney (none / 0) (#68)
    by bmc on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:46:03 AM EST
    McCain was emphatic and clear about the failures of the Republican Party in his acceptance speech last night. And, he specifically made it a point to elaborate that the party was going to change if he becomes President.

    So, McCain has already claimed the mantle of being the "unbush." With Palin, he's already shed that label, because of the huge impact of her candidacy in the minds of voters. So, sorry, that won't work anymore.

    McCain/Palin does not equal Bush/Cheney.

    I have to say, that this whole campaign has reinforced the meme that Democrats are weak, ineffectual, complacent, and overly cautious. And, that's why they lose elections.

    McCain, by contrast, looks brave, bold and daring for choosing the first woman in the party's history to be his VP. She's personable, likeable, and has some rhetorical talent. The American people have clearly liked her, and are excited to see her speak.

    I think it's just not going to work to push the meme that McCain = Bush. That ship sailed a long time ago. With Palin, it's clear that McCain is NOT Bush3.

    Parent

    McCain may not be Bush (none / 0) (#79)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:57:31 AM EST
    but he is a Republican and has supported 90% of their policies since he has been in the Senate. Hammer that home.


    Parent
    Where have I heard this before? (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Doc Rock on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:06:24 AM EST
    I'll restore dignity to the office of President? I am a uniter, not a divider?

    Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me!

    McCain is already moving away from Bush (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by stefystef on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:08:22 AM EST
    as is the entire  Republican Party.  There must be more to the Obama campaign than "McSame" and "Bush's Third Term".  Enough catch phrases- it's time to get down to substance.

    McCain, who hates Bush  on so many levels, will not allow his presidency to be attached to George W. in any way, but the Democrats must make people know that McCain is no maverick, no trailblazer.

    Expose McCain's record on a basic level and make sure your base is behind you.  No one said it would be easy...

    I have never seen a campaign (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by BrianJ on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:48:48 AM EST
    With so little substance, on either side.  Obama's "substance" in his acceptance speech was a rehash of his TV commercials, and it looks like McCain didn't even give us that much.

    Both candidates stood for "Change" and "Experience" and then appointed VPs that nullified these themes-  Obama appointed a man who's been in the Senate since Obama was 11, and McCain appointed a woman who had been mayor of a town smaller than my hometown until two years ago.  (To which the Democrats spectacularly overreacted.)

    "Exposing" McCain would be a good idea except that it would lead to the "Exposure" of Obama in exactly the same way-  both candidates have cheerfully erased basic parts of their own platforms for political expediency, as Obama did again last night.

    If I worked for either of these guys, the first thing I'd do is... quit.  Play piano in a whorehouse.  You know, something more respectable.

    Parent

    I agree but (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by oldpro on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:01:54 PM EST
    the Rs have all the soundbites and catchy slogans.

    Dems have crap themes and narratives and paragraph after paragraph of 'explanations.'

    It can't be Obama vs. McCain.  It's not working.  McCain got his maverick mojo back with Palin.  It doesn't have to be true...it just has to be saleable...and it is.

    I guess if your mantra is reaching across aisles and bringing us all together, you really can't run a campaign of back to basics:  Dems vs. Republicans.  But that's the only winning campaign.

    As in ads/TV/billboards:  Republicans:  More war - more debt - fewer jobs.  Throw the bums out.  Or:  Republicans - 28 years of destroying the economy.  Don't be fooled.  

    There are endless simple variations on this theme because it's STILL the economy, stupid!  THAT is the winning issue once again, so tie all this R talk about Victory! to victory over the economy here at home.

    Parent

    Does Palin counter that? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by ineedalife on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:09:25 AM EST
    She showed that the Republican Party can be gutted and reformed from within, while retaining office. I think that is the symbolic message of her candidacy.


    She is primarily a religious heroine (none / 0) (#59)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:32:06 AM EST
    But that's not (none / 0) (#132)
    by oldpro on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 02:07:39 PM EST
    what they're selling.

    Perception is everything.

    Parent

    Third Bush Term is effective ... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:19:21 AM EST
    but it's a negative frame.

    In order to lock up the election, Obama must focus on his plans to fix the economy.

    This should be easy, because McCain's economic plan is dismal.

    He offers no immediate tax relief.  And no immediate plan to deal with high energy costs.  All his plans are long term.

    Obama's economic plan is clearly superior.  But I don't think it's been effectively communicated. And that's what he needs to do to lock down the key swing states, especially Michigan and Ohio.

    In short, stating the problem (Bush third term) isn't enough, you need to offer solutions.

    Note: Energy Costs (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:22:26 AM EST
    Obams's plan to deal with high energy costs still needs some work.  And I think this is the pressing economic concern of most Americans.  

    (For instance, there's nothing on high energy costs on the economy page of his website.  Makes the page seem out of touch.)  

    But he may be able to solve this with some message retooling.

    Parent

    Robert, this is one of the (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:41:33 AM EST
    things that I think Americans mean by saying the Dem ticket is "risky". The electorate is so clearly saying they don't want McCain because they already KNOW what he stands for. Obama SOUNDS right to a person's heart, but they can't quite figure out the details. The reason they can't figure out the details is because the problems are enormous and complicated. Let's face it: whether it's true or not, the country BELIEVES the next decade is going to be really really tough. We know we need something new, but nobody can 100% define what "new" is. That's the point of "new"- it's largely not what came before.
    What bugs me is that Obama and the Dems are trying to be honest about energy and jobs. The only way to meaningfully reduce energy costs is to introduce competing sources. Business 101 stuff. This would also at least blunt if not revitalize the struggling job market that is due to the evolving global economy. THAT's what the Dems and Obama are saying, but it's the voters that must accept this. Robert, you're dead on with your critique though.

    Parent
    But the fact (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by JAB on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:01:24 AM EST
    That when it comes down to pulling the lever in the booth, people always go with "known" over "risky".  

    But I don't agree that Obama and the Dems have been "honest about energy and jobs".  Look at the Cheney Energy bill he voted for (that even McCain voted against).

    Parent

    Agreed ... (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:13:49 PM EST
    I think risk is the determining factor in presidential elections, not past vs. future as some would have you believe.

    But the Bush Third Term idea increases the sense of risk in voting McCain. And a strongly argued economic plan decreases the sense of risk in choosing Obama.

    Parent

    Thanks ... (none / 0) (#83)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:01:15 AM EST
    but it's Robot, not Robert.

    Robot as in ... whirrr ... click ... beep.

    ;)

    Parent

    I'm so glad you're back (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Klio on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:31:19 AM EST
    but I'm not sure I agree with you this morning.  

    I'm clearly in the minority but frankly, I found McCain's speech better than I expected it to be, or rather, not as terrible as it could have been.  I don't think anyone was expecting rhetorical flourishes.  He didn't mangle it and he had some effective lines.  I thought the close was a masterpiece of emotional manipulation; it was a very deftly structured speech.  

    Furthermore, he really looked terrific - all praise to his makeup team - and presented as gritty yet puckish (among other things).

    But what he did best was carve out space as the legitimate critic of his own party, or at least of the current officeholders.  I'm not hearing about that portion of his speech, which I think took much of the sting out of the charge that equates him to Bush's 3rd term.  That moment may have passed.

    [No, I am not voting for him, I'm no kind of Republican supporter, just making my observations....]

    He SAYS he was a critic of his party (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:46:12 AM EST
    but how much of that can he talk about now?

    He was against tax cuts before he was for them.

    He was against torture before he decided that the President could decide that he wasn't bound by the anti-torture legislation.

    He was against global warming until he failed to vote on relevant legislation.

    He was for immigration reform until he decided that he was against his own proposal until his critics finish building a fence across the entire Mexican border.

    He was for the veterans until he voted against increased GI benefits, against giving them as much stateside time as Iraq time, against fixing the abhorrent and immoral failure to properly care for physically or mentally wounded troops.

    He criticized the tactics that Bush used in Iraq, but still believes that Iraq is the central front in the war on terror, and that we were right to go in, leaving one to conclude that he will be willing to commit military forces in other equally stupid situations. Georgia! Iran! Who knows where else?

    Has he criticized his party for acquiescing in Bush's rape of the Constitution?

    Has he criticized his party for cheering on the contempt of Karl Rove, Harriet Miers, Alberto Gonzalez, Michael Mukasey and others of Congressional subpoenas?

    Has he criticized his party for outing a covert agent working on WMD and then covering up the crime?

    Has he criticized his party for turning the Justice Department into another branch office for the RNC?  

    Has he criticized his party for making it harder for poor people and people of color to vote?

    Has he criticized his party for outsourcing vital government functions?  For no-bid contracts that result in the waste of billions of taxpayer dollars for badly built or unusable buildings in Iraq?

    Has he criticized his party for being on the brink of breaking the military?

    He wants the voters to think that Republican corruption is just a few guys like Ted Stevens (ordinary misuse of public funds) and Larry Craig (foot tapping in mens' rooms).  

    He doesn't want them think about the ubiquitous corruption by Republicans of the very functions of government.

    Parent

    litigatormom (none / 0) (#90)
    by Klio on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:10:28 AM EST
    I'm not making the argument that McCain is a reformer; all I'm saying is that last night, he clearly and effectively criticized his own party and fellow politicians for having failed the people.  I don't think he was speaking about a few bad apples.  He indicted "them" wholesale as good people who got turned around and offered himself as a plausible way to keep the faith and get change too.  That was shrewd.

    Parent
    My point is that he's (none / 0) (#134)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 04:04:31 PM EST
    "criticizing" them for garden variety corruption when the real corruption in the party goes way deeper than that. People understand a little embezzlement here, a little pocket-lining there, a little pedophilia here. They think of it as personal conduct.

    McCain has never addressed the abuses of power, the contempt for the law and the Constitution, the lies and the cover-ups. He never will.  Gerald Ford couldn't pretend that Watergate was just about a little burglary. But McCain is going to pretend that the GOP just got a little fat and lazy, not they have tried to break the government.

    Parent

    Well, his teeth looked yellow to me (1.50 / 2) (#62)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:34:47 AM EST
    Palin's were movie star white....

    I kept thinking if he were elected, he probably wouldn't last a full four years and we would get a President Palin.

    Parent

    Anyone with bad teeth can (none / 0) (#119)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:38:40 PM EST
    have them capped with veneers....especially someone with his money.

    Parent
    The end was good (none / 0) (#74)
    by davnee on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:49:50 AM EST
    Overall the speech was pedestrian to bad, but I do agree that the last minute or so of the speech was very strong.  Of course, you hope for more than one good minute.  I'd give the speech a C- on the basis of the last minute alone.  But I do believe McCain is better off the cuff than in the can, so he may surprise people in the debates, particularly since Obama is far, far better canned than off the cuff.  McCain may be able to reel Obama in a bit in the debates.  Obama still has all the advantages in this race, but I don't think McCain is a goner yet.  That he still has a shot is remarkable.

    Parent
    It is remarkable, isn't it? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Klio on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:12:45 AM EST
    We can all marvel at that.

    I thought he had a more than a good last minute.  His "I hate war" portion was brilliant, and even had the bonus of feeling utterly sincere.  And I thought his whole 'Republicans have lost their way, but you can count on me to straighten it out' shtick was also very good.

    Parent

    But did you believe him? (none / 0) (#135)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 04:05:18 PM EST
    I did not.

    Parent
    Let me remind you (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM EST
    of Obama's response to Palin's speech:

    The speech that Governor Palin gave was well delivered, but it was written by George Bush's speechwriter and sounds exactly like the same divisive, partisan attacks we've heard from George Bush for the last eight years. If Governor Palin and John McCain want to define 'change' as voting with George Bush 90% of the time, that's their choice, but we don't think the American people are ready to take a 10% chance on change.

    See, it's really not that hard to stay on message, if you try!  Even Palin can be linked to George Bush.  The campaign seems to be getting it, other Dems need to start getting it too.  This election will not be about the PTA or whether Palin's husband once shot a man just for snoring too loud.

    John Wesley Hardin (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:46:04 AM EST
    Made me chuckle.

    Parent
    That last sentence (none / 0) (#104)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:41:45 AM EST
    needs to be repeated often and LOUDER. Or at least with more passion, like he means it. I heard him make that statement and it could have used a more forceful delivery.

    Parent
    Connecting with the voters (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Manuel on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:54:14 AM EST
    Krugman describes the Republican framing well.  I disagree with him in that there is considerable evidence both on the blogs and the media that some parts of the Democratic party do look down their noses at less educated voters.

    What Obama needs to do is to explain to those voters how the Bush/McCain policies hurt them and how his policies will benefit them.  Take tax policy, McCain will frame this as a higher tax rate hurting the economy overall.  Obama needs to show that a higher tax rate on some individuals and corporations won't hurt the economy.  Lather, rinse, repeat for health care, education, building infrastructure, and energy.  Hillary was very good at this towards the end of her campaign but I don't think a surragte can close the deal for Obama.  He needs to do it himself.

    Say so by example (none / 0) (#2)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:35:24 AM EST
    without using the shorthand. I think the slogan itself, "Bush's Third Term" is tired and a turn-off. In some ways saying something so abhorrent sticks to the one saying it and not the object.

    But then I've always been turned off by canned slogans, so I guess I'm a bad test case.

    Rewarding failure (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:52:08 AM EST
    John McCain wants you to reward the failures of the Bush administration, instead of fixing them and reversing course.

    When people get fired for doing a bad job, they're not supposed to be replaced by someone with a more inspiring biography who pledges to do the exact same thing.

    Note also that McCain has not said anything about the OTHER kind of corruption of the last eight years: the corruption of the Constitution.

    Parent

    The Obama (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:58:23 AM EST
    campaign should read your posts and take it to heart. You are doing some excellent messaging here today.

    Parent
    According to Mitch McConnell, (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:20:36 AM EST
    who was interviewed by NPR last night, it's all the Democrats fault, as they have had the majority in Congress since 2006; if only they had reached across the aisle, all would be fine now.

    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:26:43 AM EST
    Just like being next to Siberia makes Sarah Palin an experienced diplomat.  I heard that again this morning.  And Mika Brzezinski laughed her ass off, but didn't tell him to just stop it. Laughing off the talking points doesn't stop them. They have to be forcefully rebutted, and since we can't really count of the MCM to do so, we have to get our surrogates out there 24/7 laying waste to the Republicans.

    Parent
    I thought it was a pretty effective (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:33:18 AM EST
    soundbite and cleverly undermined Obama's bi-partisan schtick.

    Parent
    Tell me when the Republicans (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:50:18 AM EST
    reached across the aisle when they were control of both the White House and the Congress? They had sole control of the government for six years and when did they engage in any sort of bipartisanship.  It was my way or the high way.

    And once the Dems took control of Congress -- by the slimmest of margins in the Senate -- they became obstructionists. How many times did they hold up the Senate with filibuster threats?  Reid was the always the one who backed down, not them.

    Parent

    And where is Harry Reid? (none / 0) (#73)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:49:22 AM EST
    Why isn't he out there on NPR and everywhere countering that message with the truth. The truth that Republicans have voted lock step with Bush and will not budge an inch and filibuster every bi-partisan bill or amendment that even some of their Republican colleagues have made . That's not "reaching across the aisle", that's surrender. I get the feeling that the Democrats really want to lose.


    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:36:13 AM EST
    Yes, let's complicate the shorthand.

    No, let's not.

    Parent

    You say that like its a bad thing ;-) (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:40:38 AM EST
    I know what you mean. That would be bad.  Isn't there another slogan though?  

    Parent
    I am sure there is (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:46:14 AM EST
    I am talking about what we should talk about. I am open to a different slogan - as long as the message sent is "McCain=Bush's Third Term."

    Parent
    How (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:50:10 AM EST
    about conservatism is the problem?

    Parent
    I'm the reason Dems lose elections (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:43:54 AM EST
    they always try to appeal to people like me, and then they lose half of everyone else. Hope their strategists are smarter than I am about how to win this time.

    Parent
    slogans (none / 0) (#18)
    by bobbski on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:47:52 AM EST
    I think the slogan itself, "Bush's Third Term" is tired -- ruffian

    Indeed, and the hopey, changey shtick is not unlike a ¨Carter´s Second Term¨ slogan, eh?

    I would have voted for McCain in 2000.  I voted for Carter in 1976.

    I will not vote for McCain or Obama in 2008.

    Another Florida under vote coming up.

    The coming global sh*tstorm will bury whomever is elected, unfortunately.

    I find it ironic that I was born in the last days of the Great Depression and it seems likely that I shall die in the early days of the Greater Depression.

    A depressing thought, indeed but by and large the intervening years have been very good to me so I cannot complain.  ;)


    Parent

    John (none / 0) (#17)
    by Lahdee on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:47:18 AM EST
    may be hoping that with the lipsticked pit bull by his side people will forget he's a bush supporter. Why change policy when it's apparent he's comfortable with the ones in place now; those have been working out oh so well haven't they. John McCain is a third term of dubya from his domestic policies to his chest beating foreign policy. We forget that at our own peril.

    Michigan commercials (none / 0) (#24)
    by Emma on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:52:57 AM EST
    for Obama are drawing the line between McCain and Bush and hitting the economy.

    The only do that LOCALLY however (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by lambert on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    No national message. No link, sorry, but it's the plan.

    Economic pain for the local markets, hopey-changey for the national markets.

    Another lost opportunity to lead.

    Parent

    If that's the plan (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:33:30 AM EST
    it is stupid.

    Sure, there should tailored local ad campaigns, but it's not just Michigan that's having trouble!  It's all over.  This is a national theme: the Republicans want to protect corporations and their overcompensate executives at YOUR expense.  You are Peter, and they are robbing you to pay Paul.

    Parent

    The other thing (none / 0) (#116)
    by Emma on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:34:08 PM EST
    is that they're negative ads about McCain, about how he doesn't know anything about the economy.  

    Well, I still don't know what Obama knows about the economy.  He's going to be defined by his flip-flops on the gas tax holiday and NAFTA and this newest thing about $1,000 tax refunds -- which sounds a lot like the Bush stimulus checks.  When do I get to find out more about Obama besides "I'm not Bush -- he is!"?

    Parent

    Bush's Third Term (none / 0) (#27)
    by NealB on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 09:56:36 AM EST
    McCain will be worse that Bush. Unbelievably, unbearably worse. While I was watching McCain's video and speech last night, that was the thought in the back of my mind: what are we going to do if this guy wins and all the crap of the past eight (hell, the past twenty-eight) years continues? Watching McCain was frightening. If he is elected, I think he'll probably make the Bush years look like the good old days. But that's me.

    I think you're right, BTD. For most folks who haven't already made up their minds, that "Bush's Third Term" theme will win them over.

    Now that all the Hoopla is over (none / 0) (#33)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:02:58 AM EST
    can we focus on the economy? Unemployment is now at 6.1% and another 86,000 jobs have disappeared. The stock market is bouncing up and down like a yo-yo and is more down than up these past couple of weeks.The economy may not be in recession (lots of argument there) but there is certainly was has been labeled "stagflation". Never mind community organizer vs small town mayor experience and whatever experience, it's irrelevant. These are the candidates of the 2 major parties and we are stuck with them. Obama needs to take a page from Bill Clinton's book and hammer home, "It's the economy, stupid". Republicans have been in charge of Congress and or the White House for 28 years and have been nothing but obstructionists for the last 2 years in the Senate. Maverick, my butt. McCain caved to supporting the Bush-Cheney tax and spend policies.  Make McCain own the mess he and his Republican cronies created.  Obama's campaign needs to be drilling that into every speech he gives.

    He's been saying that over (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptainAmerica08 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:12:42 AM EST
    and over and over again but all the media wants to talk about is Palin Palin Palin! I had Obama fatigue a month ago now I'm getting sick of the newest media sensation. If you really are interested in the message and policies instead of the politics, watch campaign trail videos on c-span.org.

    Parent
    I don't need to watch c-span (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    This is the message Obama needs to get out there and not in flowery speeches that are barely covered by the media. He and his economic advisers need to get on every talk show that will have them. You and I may have Obama fatigue but why? Because he is not taking the lead and getting his message across to the rest of the voters who aren't that interested and aren't going to watch c-span.


    Parent
    They haven't come to realize anything... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:12:44 AM EST
    ...about Palin.  They reacted when she was nominated, and to her wretched, disgusting, lying speech at the convention.  Now, as usual, the VP will cease to mean much of anything, except to the nutcases who are only going to vote for McCain BECAUSE of Palin -- voters whom the Democrats never would've gottan and who, almost assuredly, would've voted for McCain anyway.  Did you really expect there to be no loud cry over her nomination?  You can try to qualify her all you want, but the truth remains, she is probably the most out of touch extremist, the biggest amateur on the national stage, to be nominated ever.  Sorry, but when you nominate someone who has lived their ENTIRE life in relative isolation and segregation, you are going to get noise made.  It was made, it's now largely over, and she can go about her merry business of preaching to the nutcase converted.

    Rasmussen (none / 0) (#56)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:31:02 AM EST
    has Obama over McCain 48-46 today.

    In order to get that as a three day average, Thursday's total would have to be McCain over Obama 48-44.  Obama had been at 50 points for three days in a row and McCain at about 45.

    As the good Obama days drop off, McCain will improve in the average.

    McCain should have the lead in Rasmussen by Sunday....

    Perhaps the good news is that 4 points may be the ceiling on McCain's lead because of the bounce...

    I hope McCain doesn't get the lead (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by stefystef on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:50:37 AM EST
     in the polls, but we will see by Sunday.  What is clear that any bounce that Obama got last week just got erased.

    Parent
    Actually that's not quite true (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by steviez314 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:00:13 AM EST
    Remember, Monday night's result gets dropped out of the average--and it was a big one for Obama, since it made the 3 day go from +3 to +6.

    It's actually very possible that last night was  an O+3 or so, since it probably dropped out at O+12.

    Parent

    Interesting point (none / 0) (#121)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:40:11 PM EST
    Poblano has a better analysis (none / 0) (#129)
    by MKS on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:36:21 PM EST
    He says Obama was plus 2 last night.

    Monday, Obama was plus 11 and that day dropped out of today's polling.

    Parent

    3rd Term of Stupid too--too funny! (none / 0) (#69)
    by steviez314 on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:46:05 AM EST

    If you were wondering what that building was behind McCain on the sceren during his speech, it was Walter Reed Middle School in CA.

    Obviously they tried to "the google" Walter Reed Hospital for a stock photo and got that instead.

    I thought it was one of his homes! n/t (none / 0) (#71)
    by litigatormom on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 10:46:43 AM EST
    I agree (none / 0) (#82)
    by AccidentalTourist on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:01:10 AM EST
    We look silly complaining about a politician being young, inexperienced and getting by on charisma now that the shoe is on the other foot. One of the silliest lines of attack I've heard is the one that belittles Palin for knowing how to read a Teleprompter. These kinds of arguments shine an unfavorable light right back on our own candidate and are a wash, at best.

    McCain = Bush III should be part of Obama's strategy, but I also think Obama himself needs a message more substantive than "hope" and "change." IMO he has not yet found a signature issue or concrete policy idea that substantiates his promises of hope and change, which actually resonates with the public. Not in the way Bill Clinton did, in '92 and '96.

    I am a fan (none / 0) (#85)
    by CST on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:02:29 AM EST
    Of the 10% change line.  It hits home that McCain = Bush, while acknowledging the 10% that makes everyone think he's a maverick.  It's a way of saying "sure, sometimes he disagrees, but not nearly enough".

    Although I am curious: what (none / 0) (#89)
    by oculus on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:10:12 AM EST
    is Obama's voie percentage vis a vis Bush?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#94)
    by CST on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    I don't know about his whole career, or even Bush's whole term.  But here is a decent breakdown of 2007 that gives a good picture of what this all means.

    Basically in 2007 McCain voted with Bush 95% of the time and Obama did about 40% of the time (which was similar to other Dems).  Obama also voted with the Democrats over 95% of the time for most of his senate career.

    Parent

    votes (none / 0) (#136)
    by bobbski on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    Basically in 2007 McCain voted with Bush 95% of the time and Obama did about 40% of the time (which was similar to other Dems) -- CST

    If this is true, why did Bush get to have his way these past 2 years?  I mean, didn´t democrats control the congressional purse strings?

    Parent

    Not sure (none / 0) (#145)
    by CST on Sat Sep 06, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    I did hear the republicans in congress have filibustered the dems more than any time in history by a long shot.  Not trying to make excuses for congress, but that's just how it went down.  The 40%/95% I got from factcheck, I am not sure how many of those votes passed though.  I don't know that Bush got everything he's wanted the last 2 years, I think it's more like nothing at all has gotten done.  Except FISA of course...

    Parent
    First let's see a response to the McCain bounce (none / 0) (#86)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST


    He got a bounce? (none / 0) (#95)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:20:17 AM EST
    He was a POW... (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:24:46 AM EST
    He spent five and a half years without a bounce.  

    Parent
    I may not support McCain (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:35:05 AM EST
    and I'm a little peeved at his constantly pushing his POW status but I respect his service. I have a lot of friends who did not come back from Viet Nam and quite a few who did come back had a lot of problems that did not get treated very well by either the American people or the American government. So, if your comment was meant to be amusing it was lost on me.


    Parent
    And did I say anything about... (none / 0) (#114)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:16:12 PM EST
    ...not respecting his service?  

    Parent
    His POW status is part of his service (none / 0) (#115)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:24:17 PM EST
    His 5 1/2 years is not a joke, either to him or me.
     Do I need to make myself clearer?


    Parent
    His POW "status" was... (none / 0) (#126)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 01:29:55 PM EST
    a result of his service.  

    It is John McCain, himself, is the one making it into a campaign issue--not me.  

    I've lived through 40 years of severe pain and suffering--does that make me fit to be POTUS?  It doesn't, just like being a POW doesn't make JSM3 anymore qualified for the position.  It defines who you are, not what you're qualified to do.

    But, if it you makes you feel better, go right ahead and "make yourself clearer".

    Parent

    AND I did not say (none / 0) (#139)
    by themomcat on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:47:54 PM EST
    his military service or his POW Status made him fit to be POTUS. Perhaps you need to re-read what I said in mt first response at your lame attempt at a  humor. Maybe you just stick to the topic of McCain's alleged "bounce" in the polls.
    Have a lovely night.


    Parent
    Don't be so sure of this (none / 0) (#110)
    by Manuel on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:58:04 AM EST
    His speech wasn't great but he closed strong.  His base is energezied.  If he can tap into the resentment and frustration many voters feel, he can keep this election closer than it should be.

    Parent
    slogans (none / 0) (#97)
    by bobbski on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:28:38 AM EST
    Who will you vote for?  Or will you not vote at all? -- litigatormom

    In answer to your first question, unless both McCain and Obama start speaking of what they will do and how they will do it rather than regurgitating talking points and empty rhetoric, I will likely vote for neither.

    In answer to your second question, I will vote for the other offices on the ballot and likely will vote against every incumbent regardless of party.

    I have been voting for some 48 years and in all that time I have never been one to blindly follow a party line and at this point in my life, I have no intention to start.

    The incumbents, of both parties, have enabled Bush to run the country into the ground.  The democrats are especially deserving of scorn because they have done nothing to curtail the worthless bastard.  (pardon my language)

    They have tried to play it safe for the past two years despite promising to put a leash on the Bush/Cheney disaster.  They have done this in the hope that if they let the country go further down the road to disaster they would have a better chance at the White House in 2008.

    Pelosi and Reid are almost as despicable and incompetent as Bush, IMO.

    Sorry to vent but I am more that fed up with these worthless politicians.

    Two great tastes taste great together? (none / 0) (#106)
    by doxastic on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 11:49:29 AM EST
    I agree for the most part with your argument, but how about a marriage of the two--rather than focus solely on McCain-Bush, the links can also be made between Palin's allergy to telling the truth and use of executive privilege as well as her social conservatism. This approach would both attack head-on her claim to executive experience (she's got enough experience to know how to abuse power) and highlight the lack of accountability that Americans dislike in Bush and that has been on parade during the convention.

    Change we can believe in, (none / 0) (#122)
    by KeysDan on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 12:51:39 PM EST
    is the change that is evident in John McCain. While I was never swayed by the maverick label or the Mr. Nice Guy attempt through media accessibility, many do, or did, believe it. But now, even Mr. Magoo should be able to see the morphing into Bush, if not Cheney.  The once valiant POW has, once again, been captured.   This time by his own opportunism and his subscription to the failed, Republican policies.  Sadly,  as the convention demonstrates, he has become a different kind of POW--a prisoner of wingnuts.

    Bush's Third Term (none / 0) (#138)
    by leftfielder on Fri Sep 05, 2008 at 05:30:52 PM EST
    Hey Guys,

    There will be some veterans who will take what he is doing as a punch in the face. Some veterans will say to the guy: "You sold me out and now you want me to fight for you?". "You stupid Judas". "My sergeant in command of the unit would never go out and find me". There are Army sergeants who would go to him and cut his face open because he never returned to the line and he became a POW himself. All on his own, because he would never retreat behind the line and fight with his team. An Army soldier's job is to avoid situations where he is going to be captured.