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Tuesday Open Thread

I'll be out for several hours, TChris is in trial and I'm not sure about BTD, who wrote a lot of good posts this morning on the economy, just scroll down.

Here's an open thread for those of you with other topics to discuss.

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    Political ads - downticket (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by liminal on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:57:15 PM EST
    I don't really think that Bruce Lunsford has any chance of unseating Mitch McConnell in Kentucky this year, given that a midsummer poll had him down by 13-14 points, but it's a weird year, and Lunsford has come up with a clever ad, citing McCain's calls for change, and McCain's characterization of Mitch as one of the most corrupt members of the Senate.  HRC made a few campaign stops for Lunsford in Kentucky this week, too.

    Meanwhile, here in the Mountain State, our sole Republican, Shelly Moore Capito, can probably expect comfortable re-election, but she's feeling enough pressure to run an ad touting the fact when she broke ranks with the Republican party once in a really long while and how often (hahaha!) she stood up to Bush.  (I think she has a voting record that is 80 to 90% pro-Bush, but if you watch that ad, you'd think she running around knee-capping the Republicans at every turn.)

    Tweedle dee and dumb (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:29:24 PM EST
    "Democrats to Let Offshore Drilling Ban Expire.
    Democrats have decided to allow a quarter-century ban on drilling for oil off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to expire next week..." (AP)

    Ah yes.

    Nader is sooo wrong when he says that the same corporations control both parties.

    I'm so glad that he has been excluded from the debates.
    We wouldn't want nasty issues and alternative solutions brought up. It would only disrupt the semi-comatose tranquility engendered by a debate in which both parties accept the same  talking points.


    Yes, another under the bus moment... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:38:02 PM EST
    from the Democrats.  D**n right Nader is correct!

    However, we still control the votes until November 4 so get on the phone to your reps and demand that the monies go to the people and not the fat ats.

    [ Parent ]

    Almost 70% of American support offshore drilling. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:01:43 PM EST
    And it's a big rallying cry for Republicans and appealing to over half of liberals and moderates.

    The Dems want to win.  Bucking the preferences of voters regarding an outright ban isn't going to help.  End the ban, get elected, then control the process of phasing in drilling in limited places with strong environmental protections in place, or insist upon the ban, see Republicans gain in power, and watch shoddy, unsafe, polluting drilling platforms pop up everywhere.

    [ Parent ]

    Wrong and bad politics and policy! (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    It is the Dems and Obama's job to take that meme away and effectively explain why it is not going to help them and how bad the idea is and demonstrate effectively, their energy plan.

    Instead, the Dems cave again without a whimper of protest.

    [ Parent ]

    Too late. Time to win the election. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:16:10 PM EST
    Take the meme away and effectively explain and convert opinion after winning.  No new drilling platforms are going to pop up before January.

    [ Parent ]
    Once again... (none / 0) (#70)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:20:34 PM EST
    we're being told to vote for someone not on what they say, but what we are supposed to think they believe in spite of what they say. "After they're elected, they'll do the right thing". Never works. B.S. is b.s. Once these guys get adept at it, they never give it up. They will continue to support those who give them big bucks and the illusion of power. We will always come in second, if at all, with these guys. Don't be naive.

    [ Parent ]
    70% (none / 0) (#72)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:32:30 PM EST
    70% of the American people want an end to the war in Iraq.
    Doesn't mean sh-t to the dems or repubs.

    But off-shore drilling - oh yeah! Suddenly, it's the will of the people.

    You want us to believe that the dems will be real careful with the rigs - unlike the greedy careless republicans. I'm sure all the fish will be glad to hear about it.

    And when there is the inevitable spill or accident, and all the muck flows our way, we will all take comfort from the hearty apology that will extended to us in a truly heartfelt manner.

    [ Parent ]

    FBI inverstigating Fanny, Freddie, AIG, Lehman (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:31:18 PM EST
    for fraud.  Just in on CNN.

    First scape goats for this debacle.. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:40:16 PM EST
    expect many more! Although, I'm not saying these corporations aren't culpable, it is the Repubs and Bush and I expect them to come out fine as far as wealth and no jail time.

    [ Parent ]
    Seeing as how the Demos (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:02:47 PM EST
    opposed Bush's regulation improvements in 2003, do they get the next cell over?

    ''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

    Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

    ''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.



    [ Parent ]
    McBama and O'Cain (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:46:17 PM EST
    Look at this video.
    It really expresses how I have come to feel.
    Relegated to the sidelines.

    Echo chamber


    yep, this time Nader is right! (none / 0) (#49)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:03:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    This is snark right? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:19:44 PM EST
    Seriously, after 2000 anyone who thinks "the two parties are the same" frankly isn't very smart.

    [ Parent ]
    what if is the other way around (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Florida Resident on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:32:29 PM EST
    and those of us hoping they are different are wrong?

    [ Parent ]
    Not very smart... (none / 0) (#71)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:24:12 PM EST
    Let us remember that the democrats controlled the Senate in the early days of the Bush administration. If they had stood for anything approaching integrity, we would not have had the Iraq war. They still stand for nothing.

    But - if it is comforting for you to feel that they are the good guys, dream on.

    [ Parent ]

    Then by all means... (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 10:16:30 PM EST
    call me a dummy.

    Not exactly the same, more not different enough, there are superficial differences on issues of less importance, in my not very smart opinion.

    [ Parent ]

    Ha Ha (none / 0) (#64)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:17:02 PM EST
    That's a great video.

    I can't believe I think Nader is right.

    [ Parent ]

    John McCain story (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by zyx on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:32:51 PM EST
    whoo-hoo, at the NYTimes. His campaign manager Rick Davis said he hadn't taken money from Freddy for ever so long or had "any involvement". Looks like he had just a little, not so long ago--$15,000/month.

    Wow, to me, that is such a LOT of money. Just--wow.

    This is (none / 0) (#1)
    by domerdem on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:27:53 PM EST
    priceless:

    "We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself."


    To be fair. . . (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:31:34 PM EST
    It sounds like there's plenty of opposition to the bailout from Republicans in Congress.

    [ Parent ]
    I've never been one for accepting the bum's rush (none / 0) (#11)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:00:25 PM EST
    which Bushie and Deadeye are so fond of using to get their way.

    Let's just kick this whole bailout thing down the road until after the election - the markets are going to continue to go down and there's not much anyone can do about it.

    It will also allow for more study of the situation, and depoliticize it for the election.

    And, if by chance McCain wins, then we can saddle him with it.

    [ Parent ]

    I see you still put politcs ahead (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:15:00 PM EST
    of everything else.

    If we don't get the "bail out" in place very quickly then you are going to see millions of Americans unable to support themselves in retirement.

    That serves no one and Obama will not profit from it.

    [ Parent ]

    millions of Americans (none / 0) (#19)
    by of1000Kings on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:28:33 PM EST
    were probably unable to support themselves in retirement before all of this...where the outrage for that...

    millions of Americans are unable to support themselves even as they are of working age (unless you consider $180 a week supporting oneself)...no one really cares about that...

    coming from the poorest of the poor, you'll have to do a lot better than that before I believe that an immediate bailout without thoughtful consideration is the only way to ensure that the world doesn't fall apart in the next week...

    [ Parent ]

    Here's a small clue ... (none / 0) (#20)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:33:40 PM EST
    about "how that bailout will affect millions of Americans:

    "NEW YORK (Reuters) - Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said on Tuesday a $700 billion Wall Street rescue plan would likely delay some campaign spending promises, as the reality sank in of the costs of the mammoth bailout.

    Obama, who faces Republican John McCain in their first face-to-face debate on Friday in Mississippi, said if elected he might have to phase in some of his plans such as an overhaul of the U.S. health care system."

    [ Parent ]

    That makes me so mad. Isn't there (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Teresa on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:08:23 PM EST
    something else they can postpone? I can't put into words (that would make it through J's rules) how very angry I am.

    [ Parent ]
    I would hope that work could still be done (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:16:11 PM EST
    on developing specifics of any health care reform, but I thought that was an odd one to pick because it seems like something that is going to take a lot of planning, negotiating and vetting first anyway - a few years to even begin to see substantial budgeting in place.  Maybe I am misunderstanding.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is throwing health care... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:24:30 PM EST
    under the bus.  He chose that one because he now has an "out" to do nothing.  That is why we must get this Congress to pass Conyers' health care bill.

    [ Parent ]
    Health care is my #1 issue, next (none / 0) (#67)
    by kenosharick on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:53:59 PM EST
    to gay issues, which Obama has already thrown under the bus- it's getting really crowded under here. I guess he thinks taking care of Wall Street is more important than his other promises.

    [ Parent ]
    Look, we have to get the Democrats... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:22:51 PM EST
    to bailout Main street.  We have to call our representatives and get them to be real Democrats and put a "New, New Deal" in place.  Obama is not the answer - it is now that we have to get this done.

    Immediate freeze on foreclosures
    Immediate re-working of mortgage loans to keep people in their homes
    Large infusion of funds to FDIC and community banks to help with credit, mortgages, heat etal
    Large infusion of funds to states with strict guidelines and requirements that those funds be used to help their citizens with heating and food costs
    Institute the HOLC now
    Expand the FDIC to take over institutions
    Charge an oil windfalls tax
    Pass Conyers' health care bill

    These are minimum talking points and what the Dems need to do.

    [ Parent ]

    Yesterday Bill Clinton was on the view (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by hairspray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:06:50 PM EST
    and said the way to stop the spiral was to keep people in their homes and that is where the bailout needs to be.  GO HOLC.  So how come we aren't seeing this in the news reports?

    [ Parent ]
    Because the MSM is... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:10:53 PM EST
    the corporate propaganda wing.  We as voters have to force this issue - call your reps, demand these items and then vote accordingly.  It will be too late after the election - we will have lost all of our leverage.

    [ Parent ]
    Why don't we just (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:53:25 PM EST
    start drilling for oil and solve the problems in just one stroke.

    [ Parent ]
    Annual US oil consumption is (none / 0) (#68)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:14:15 PM EST
    7.5 billion barrels of oil per year.

    Of that, we import over half (4.3 billion barrels a year) from outside the US.

    Our proven reserves are 20.972 billion barrels.

    So, the reserves would last for 2.79 years, assuming that the oil companies were able to get drilling and production going on all oil fields, including those located in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

    Link

    And as Olbermann said this year on his program:

    OLBERMANN:  In fact, Mr. Bush is right here.  A few years ago, the EIA, the United States Energy Information Administration, considered the impact of drilling in Anwar, and said that gasoline prices would go down, dropping one cent per gallon by the year 2025.  

    "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

    H.L. Mencken



    [ Parent ]
    heh (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 10:06:06 PM EST
    The outer continental shelf has around 100 billion barrels and now we have the Bakken field... ANWR and oil shale...

    It is time we do something. If we sit around and complain we will die.

    I never watch Olberman. If I want to puke I just stick my finger down my throat.

    [ Parent ]

    100 billion barrels (none / 0) (#77)
    by Dark Avenger on Wed Sep 24, 2008 at 12:08:17 AM EST
    only extends the time to depletion to 15 years.

    Link

    How Much Oil Does the OCS Have?

    Before talking about whether or not increased oil supply from the OCS and its impact on prices, it's good to get a handle on just how much oil we can expect to find and produce. Below is Table 1 from the 2006 MMS resource assessment for undiscovered technically recoverable* oil and gas resources in the OCS regions. Reviewing the methods of calculation and determination of resources is way beyond the scope of this post. For the sake of discussion, let's assume their numbers are correct.

    The numbers are divided into oil (in billions of barrels) and natural gas (in trillions of cubic feet). For now, let's focus on oil - I've circled in red the total of all four regions, which comes to 86 billion barrels of oil.

    If you incorporate the low and high estimates, then it would be 9 and 15 years, respectively. For the sake of argument, let's go ahead and use the "optimistic" estimate that the OCS would give us 15 years worth of oil.

    Just think of this as a different unit for oil ... the volume unit is put into the context of time. Kind of like putting distance into time with the light-year unit. This doesn't mean it will actually take 15 years to use it, it's simply another way to visualize the amount. (Of course, unlike the speed of light, the consumption rate could certainly change, which would affect that calculation.) UPDATE3: Multiple readers/commenters have brought up the point that this `oil-years' unit is misleading ... I agree. I certainly don't want anyone to cite Clastic Detritus as saying X billion barrels would last X years. It's simply another way to visualize it. One would want to compare other resource assessments like this within that same `unit'.

    and  

    How Long Until We Can Get That Oil?

    Let's assume the offshore drilling ban was lifted later today ... just like that. Would the oil start flowing tomorrow? Of course not.

    Firstly, there is currently a five-year backlog for offshore drilling rigs/ships. As other nations such as China and India start developing their offshore resources, the demand for drilling equipment as skyrocketed. Ship builders are answering the call by building more equipment but, as you might guess, building a vessel that can drill in 3,000 m of water and 8,000 m into the subsurface can't be done on a weekend.

    Secondly, drilling an exploration well is but one step in a long process of getting the resource to market. Depending on the depths and other geologic factors, just drilling a hole to test the hypothesis of the presence of oil could take several months. Then, the company, country, or joint-venture needs to decide whether or not to proceed with the project ... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. If they do decide there's enough oil to make the project economic then a development plan needs to be hammered out ... those other wells need to be drilled. That's just the drilling ... we haven't even gotten to the actual production facilities yet! You get the picture. Depending on water depths, distance from pipelines, and so on and so forth, getting an oil field online from time of discovery can take anywhere from a few years to more than a decade.

    Thirdly, only a handful of fields would come online in, let's be optimistic, a decade from now (2018). It's not like those 86 billion barrels are all going to magically be delivered to the refineries all at once. It would take many decades to deliver that resource.

    -

    Commodity Trading and the Price of Oil

    Another part of this discussion is the fact that oil is a commodity like any other and is traded on an open market. Fluctuations in price are driven by the interactions of the traders themselves. I would be way out of my bounds if I went any further down this path trying to explain the dynamics of commodities trading. I don't have a deep understanding of how that all works.

    Some argue that lifting the ban will "send a message" to the rest of the world that we are serious about increasing our own domestic supply, which will influence the commodities traders and thus the price. My intuition (for what it's worth) is that it might drive the price down for a short time. Daily/weekly fluctuations in the price of oil do seem to be influenced by global events, economic announcements, and so on. But, over the long term (months to years), the price seems to be driven by basics of supply and demand.

    -

    Opportunism for Pro-Drilling Advocates

    Finally ... the op-ed part of the post!

    It should be obvious to most, that the politicians who favor offshore petroleum resource development are citing the current high-gasoline-price situation as the main reason for why the drilling ban needs to be lifted. The argument is simple: lift the drilling ban > oil exporation/production occurs > oil supplies increase > gasoline prices go down.

    There are several layers of complexity in this issue, but the two aspects that I've discussed in this post, the estimated amount of undiscovered oil and the time it would take to get it to market, are not mentioned by these politicians. Reporters, other bloggers, and, even more telling, those that actually work in this industry, have mentioned this:

        As politicians debate whether to open federal offshore waters to oil and natural-gas drilling, there is agreement on at least one point: It isn't a short-term fix.

        If the bans were lifted tomorrow, it would be at least seven years -- and likely as long as a decade -- before the first oil began to flow off the coasts of Florida, California and the eastern seaboard.

        "Is it going to happen overnight? No," said Dan Naatz, vice president of the Independent Petroleum Association of America. "Is it going to solve all of our nation's energy problems? No."

    That's a report from The Wall Street Journal quoting the vice president of the Independent Petroleum Association of America (bold emphasis mine). These people actually work in the industry ... they know what's up.

    McCain should know better, he should know the realities of the oil and gas industry ... instead he's pandering:

        ...[McCain] said his proposal would "be very helpful in the short term resolving our energy crisis."

    He's specifically saying the "short term". He's not talking philosophically about energy independence in the 21st century or anything like that. He's talking about right now. UPDATE: McCain has back-flopped, or flip-tracked, or something ... he's now saying that the short-term benefits of opening up drilling will be "psychological". Okay, so no immediate economic benefits after all ... darn. UPDATE2: U.S. government's top energy forecaster says allowing drilling "would be a relatively small effect" on prices.

    All of the sudden, lifting the ban on offshore drilling is the most important issue of the day for some conservatives (e.g., here). Now, let's be clear ... I'm not saying that allowing development and production of these resources wouldn't impact our dependence on foreign oil in the long term. It most certainly would. My point is that implying that lifting the ban would somehow magically result in an immediate return to cheap (and sustained) gasoline prices is disingenuous. Moreover, if you do peruse the pro-drilling websites, you probably won't find much quantification of undiscovered resources ... just phrases like "vast amounts" and "a lot". If long-term prices are indeed driven by supply-demand, to what degree will 15 oil-years affect global supply-demand dynamics?
    The debate over whether or not to lift the ban should continue. It is an important debate because it will keep the overarching problem of energy in the forefront. When the drilling moratorium was enacted I presume it was primarily to protect areas from direct impacts of drilling and production  - it was local to regional. Now, superimposed on the direct impacts, is the global problem of eventually burning those hydrocarbons for energy and its subsequent impact on the atmosphere.

    Here's what the head of the EIA said a few months ago:

    However, Guy Caruso, who heads the federal Energy Information Administration, said consumers would see little savings at the pump.

    "It would be a relatively small effect, because it would take such a long time to bring those supplies on," Caruso said during a briefing at the Center for Strategic and International Studies on the EIA's new long-term international energy forecast. "It doesn't affect prices that much."

    Most energy experts say it would take five to 10 years to find oil in the closed areas and bring the crude to market. Caruso said the additional supplies would amount to only a couple of hundred thousand barrels of oil a day.

    "It does take a long time to develop these resources, and therefore the price impact is muted by that," he said.

       "For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

        H.L. Mencken

    If I want to puke I just stick my finger down my throat.

    If I want to puke, I just read your blog.

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    Well, I dunno about might (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:50:46 PM EST
    but first of all he has to do two things.

    1. Win the election.

    2. Get his bill through Congress.

    Neither are a given.

    [ Parent ]
    It may just be (none / 0) (#28)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:23:41 PM EST
    an 'Arlen Specter' show for the camera and the folks back home.  Come vote time, it may be different.

    [ Parent ]
    No, the Republicans are getting.... (none / 0) (#33)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:29:04 PM EST
    political advantage and will not vote for this bill.   This gives them a huge separation from the Bush Administration and tying the Democrats to Bush and it gives voters the impression that Republicans are principled and not going for bailouts for their constituents (the wealthy).  The public will not understand the total cynicism being displayed by the Repubs who know full well that the Dems will pass this.

    [ Parent ]
    RNC platform (none / 0) (#2)
    by domerdem on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:29:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Remember when (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:29:54 PM EST
    Rick Davis said "watch California"? Never mind.

    No, no, no. He said. . . (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:32:10 PM EST
    "Watch Californication".  He has the hots for David Duchovney.

    [ Parent ]
    That makes two of us (none / 0) (#6)
    by CST on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:38:28 PM EST
    :)

    [ Parent ]
    Don't be so sure about California (none / 0) (#23)
    by stefystef on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:03:22 PM EST
    Isn't this the same state that polled that Tom Bradley would be the first African American governor in the state of California.  Mayor Bradley lost, badly.

    The results of that election gave us the phrase "The Bradley Effect".  

    Always remember people say one thing and do another in private.

    [ Parent ]

    A variation of that is being raised (none / 0) (#26)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:19:46 PM EST
    in some articles about still-undecided Hillary supporters - that many still want to hold Obama's feet to the fire some and still can't publicly support Obama or even personally commit to being behind him, but may vote for him in the privacy of the voting booth.  If true, I wonder how those might balance out.

    [ Parent ]
    I might (none / 0) (#63)
    by nell on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:08:32 PM EST
    be one of those people...

    Not sure yet...

    I cannot stand the thought of voting for Obama because I do not have a lot of respect for him as a person, BUT I will not vote for McCain. So, do I just not vote? I have a feeling I might walk into the voting booth and grudgingly vote for Obama...

    [ Parent ]

    C'mon. If you're going to cite history ... (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:14:35 PM EST
    "Isn't this the same state that polled that Tom Bradley would be the first African American governor in the state of California.  Mayor Bradley lost, badly."

    ... then at least try to be accurate.

    Tom Bradley very narrowly lost to George Deukmajian in the 1982 California gubernatorial race by approximately 100,000 votes, or less than 1.2% of the 7.5 million ballots cast, despite being ahead in the polls during the final days of the campaign.  It was the 1986 rematch between the two that was not even close; Gov. Deukmejian won re-election with just over 60% of the vote.

    Those who do not recall history are doomed to repeat it. Those who would rewrite history to suit their own purposes are doomed to an inevitable public disgrace, preferably at the hands of a smart-alecky 8th grade honor student.

    [ Parent ]

    Those diabetics... (none / 0) (#7)
    by desertswine on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:46:14 PM EST
    they have the strength of 10 men.

    ...officers repeatedly struck the man during a struggle in which he reached for an insulin pump...

    It does look like Obama's gains ... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:52:55 PM EST
    last week because of the economic meltdown were just another short term bounce.

    Ras has it back at a tie, and his six-point lead in Gallup has dropped to three.

    Although the economic news should favor a Democrat.  I think that the news essentially side-lined Obama's campaign as a story.  And that's already hurting him.

    I think if Obama wants to use the economy to create a commanding lead, he needs to be at the center of the story.

    Right now the Presidential campaign is a sideshow.  Their debate this Friday on national security probably won't help much.

    If McCain or Obama were not running (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:27:59 PM EST
    for president, no one would have asked either one of their opinions about this issue.  Neither has a track record of credibility on the economy.  Obama's best bet is what he did - cloak himself in Bill Clinton's credibility.  But that only gets him so far.  I don't know how he gets the initiative on this particular issue.

    [ Parent ]
    And he (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:00:22 PM EST
    pretty much rolled all his plans under the bus today too.

    The electorate seems to be reistant to electing him. It seems largely due to his inexperience. I just hope he doesn't hurt downtickets.

    [ Parent ]

    I was mostly glad to see that he did that. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:26:43 PM EST
    I thought it showed a realism and dedication to seriousness of purpose to acknowledge that most of the partisan-favored issues are of lesser significance while this issue is front-and-center. Obama is showing he is for everyone (other than those CEOs), not just for Democrats.

    It seems to me that what could erase the inexperience concern is to have three stellar debates where he can keep focused on big picture issues rather than Democratic party wishlists.  McCain is flailing around so wildly that Obama's ability to be calm, consistent, and (uh oh) concise could be very important.  I'll be chewing on my fingernails.

    Still a ways to go yet.  Much of America still hasn't seen more than brief snippets of him on TV.

    [ Parent ]

    Give me a break! (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:32:48 PM EST
    Those aren't partisan issues, those are the American people's needs.  This is disgraceful.  I am wondering if we can draft Hillary to run against both of these fools!

    In the meantime, the Dem Congress has to pivot and focus on Main street and stop catering to the Repubs base.

    [ Parent ]

    The money isn't going to be there (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:38:04 PM EST
    to jump on everything right away, it doesn't matter who will be President.

    [ Parent ]
    Only we need a leader who... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:50:55 PM EST
    will instill confidence.  Also, now do what many economists, some politicians including Hillary are suggesting and not wait for the next President, which will be too late.

    That is, not the massive bail out to the failures on Wall Street, but, selective for those that can make it and give the bail out to Main street.

    The housing bubble sucked all the money because there was no alternatives for investment and this just caused the huge shell game.  Alternative energy is a huge investment opportunity while providing high wage jobs across the nation.  The Dems have solid frameworks to design legislation to stop the bleeding and do the right thing and bring about real change to the corrupt system.  It is political will that is missing.

    [ Parent ]

    I realize this is a tough time, but those (none / 0) (#31)
    by Teresa on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:28:38 PM EST
    Democratic Party "wishlists" are why I am a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too (none / 0) (#39)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:35:27 PM EST
    And I hope to see them all accomplished or at least steadily moving forward over the course of a term.  But for those who are undecided, seeing Obama insist that we'll press forward ASAP on Dem goals torpedoes be damned could turn them away.  He seemed to carefully say he wasn't dropping anything, but that some things will need to be phased in based on new economic realities.  

    [ Parent ]
    He was being careful because he doesn't ... (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by alexei on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:55:40 PM EST
    want to lose voters like you who believe that he will do the policies. New economic realities bullsh**t - this trainwreck has been forecast by many including Hillary.

    Let's not wait for the next President - make the Dems do these measures now.  Health care would save billions for business, government and of course, Americans.  Stop the Obama spinning - he should be leading on this and pushing for Main Street issues, not stepping back on them.

    [ Parent ]

    He is leading. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:12:52 PM EST
    Forecasts are not realities.  There isn't the budget for everyting right now, so he can pretend that there is to please voters like you (I guess that's what you're saying), or acknowledge that plans have to be altered and earn the respect of undecided voters.

    Even if all the Dems were behind immediate healthcare reform, it needs to happen in stages or risk another 90's style debacle.  People want healthcare reform, but are concerned about costs (as well as service availability and quality).  When people are freaked out, and they are now, it's not a good time to push for quick, radical reform.  The Dems aren't in control of the executive branch and couldn't possibly get this over a veto.

    [ Parent ]

    The ones he'll lose are those to the left (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by sallywally on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:39:58 PM EST
    not the ones who want a Republican or Republican lite in the WH.

    The last thing he needs to do is alienate the base even more.

    Why do you think those folks who are now undecided supported Hillary? She is more liberal than Obama!

    This move to the right crap is why the Dems have lost all these years.

    People want a real Democrat. If Obama is a real Democrat now, he will win. If he moves to the right in more areas, he will lose to someone who more completely represents the right wing.

    [ Parent ]

    Eh? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:52:10 PM EST
    Moving to the right?  By acknowledging that there isn't enough money to immediately implement everything in his proposed budget?  I think its just recognizing reality.

    I do agree that he's done several rightward jaunts, and some capitulations, and each time, I've ranged from losing some steam to losing some faith.  I'm still not over the FISA vote for one thing.

    I don't think it's a move to the right to say that if 700 billion is removed from the national coffers, not everything on the proposed platform is going to be able to be implemented right away.

    [ Parent ]

    I believe that Obama would be wise (none / 0) (#53)
    by hairspray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:12:42 PM EST
    to stick to several obvious flaws in our system and leave a long wish list home.  People are already wondering where the money is coming from.  If he sticks with tough financial reforms and using HOLC as a solution to mainstreet, alternative fuels and getting us out of Iraq he will keep it simple and doable. Lots of lofty rhetoric time is OVER.

    [ Parent ]
    I think he should be near-center, but not center (none / 0) (#35)
    by Realleft on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:30:56 PM EST
    1. Emphasize that there is a whole Democratic team, and he will depend on those with specific expertise rather than try to steal the spotlight when having others at the center is in the best interests of governing.
    2. Protect himself from potential political fallout if things backfire.


    [ Parent ]
    He's already bailed, imo (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:38:35 PM EST
    He stated 4 things he would like to see in the bailout, but like McCain, wouldn't commit to vote against. He said he would "strongly recommend" etc. I wonder if strongly recommend will be in a sternly written letter . . . .

    It seems this wouldn't be a bad time to appear to be leading with Dems behind him. They seem to agree what needs to be done and some republicans agree. They've (Rs) already said they wouldn't back the bailout if McCain didn't and from the snippets I caught, Obama and McCain seem to agree on the main street issue, CEO compensation etc. Heh, maybe McCain and Obama could draft a bill . . .

    [ Parent ]

    I really disagree (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 07:40:49 PM EST
    and I'm not stark raving mad about Obama either.  I think he'll do very well.  I'm not expecting him to lose any ground at all, he will only gain ground and firm up swings that have been swinging wildly.  Just because McCain will bomb bomb bomb Iran doesn't mean that the country can't see right through him to his unprincipled inner child during a presidential debate on national security.  We can always talk about how much security for our dollar Iraq has bought all of us.

    [ Parent ]
    Most Colorado polls (none / 0) (#10)
    by WS on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 04:58:29 PM EST
    have good news for Obama.  Anybody familiar with Colorado tell us about how the CO campaign stands at your vantage point?

    There's an extended post (none / 0) (#16)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:15:16 PM EST
    down the site about Colorado, with a lot of commentary.

    [ Parent ]
    Welp, here come the budget cuts (none / 0) (#12)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:03:01 PM EST
    1/2 Billion this year and 1 billion next due to loss of WS tax revenues. Cuts across the board. Bloomberg has been putting budget dollars aside for the past couple/few yrs once he got the city on track, so I guess things could be a lot worse . . .

    Also, a 7% property tax. . . (none / 0) (#13)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:10:11 PM EST
    increase is proposed (basically wiping out last year's 7% decrease).

    [ Parent ]
    That's right, forgot about that one (none / 0) (#14)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:14:13 PM EST
    well, at least he has a history of giving back what he takes away? Are we back to limited trash PU again . . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Repeal (none / 0) (#32)
    by WS on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:28:41 PM EST
    Is the city going to repeal the two term term limit in NYC?

    [ Parent ]
    Leave it to New York to do it one better (none / 0) (#17)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:17:20 PM EST
    "Twenty Years in Solitary", an article about a NY state prisoner who has been in solitary for 20 years and is scheduled to be released from solitary confinement around 2046.

    Revolting.  I hope Governor Carey and the rest of New York State are duly proud all their tax dollars go to this kind of torture.

    Warren Buffet (none / 0) (#21)
    by themomcat on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 05:49:48 PM EST
    today invested $5 billion in the investment bank Goldman Sachs.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/business/24goldman.html?hp
     

    Good! (none / 0) (#38)
    by Radiowalla on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 06:32:59 PM EST
    Then maybe they will need less of OUR money.

    [ Parent ]
    So far (none / 0) (#65)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 08:29:55 PM EST
    Buffett buys Goldman...their stock went up from $14 and cents to $125 +. BA buys Merrill and and it becomes a holding bank, what ever that means. Sounds like these guys are making out okay.

    The Democrats present a plan; the Republicans will veto it. The Democrats will present another plan with less, the Republicans will veto it. Now it' going to be October 31 and the Democrats will surrender to with the original plan.

    Wanna bet?

    [ Parent ]

    Field & Stream candidate interviews (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 10:51:13 PM EST
    October issue arrived yesterday* and it has interviews with both of the candidates on conservation, gun rights and the outdoors if anyone is interested.

    * for some strange reason, they just started sending me this magazine a couple of months ago.