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Tuesday Evening Open Thread

I haven't seen any news today, or even opened my e-mail, but I can tell from BTD's last post, it's still being dominated by Gov. Sarah Palin. I hope he noticed I did not write about the tanning bed even though I read about it last night -- I agree it's petty, silly and has zero to do with her governing, since her spokesman said she paid for it with her own money.

I'm still at work and the TL kid is coming over for dinner, so here's an open thread for those of you that were paying attention to the world at large today.

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    Does Obama have a (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:36:43 PM EST
    plan for mass transit?  Increased mass transit funding would go a long way to removing cars from the road and reduce a city's carbon footprint.  Many cities are clamoring for it but the capital funding for it isn't there yet.  

    Along with more fuel efficient cars and renewable energy, mass transit should get the funding that it deserves.    

    Just today: (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by steviez314 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:40:57 PM EST
    The man who wears his daily commute like a badge of honor, Joe Biden took the opportunity Tuesday to take some of the media with him on his Amtrak trip from D.C.'s Union Station to Wilmington, Del. TV and print reporters accompanied him, while the rest of the traveling press corps took the bus to his campaign stop in Media, Pa.

    In the next car, Biden told another passenger that "If we get elected, it will be the most train-friendly administration ever."


    Parent
    Hillary was speaking about Trans (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:59:46 PM EST
    the other day

    maybe congress will do some work?

    Parent

    You go Girl! (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:04:10 PM EST
    Go Hillary!

    Parent
    She's been a busy little bee lately :) (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:13:42 PM EST
    Children's Health and AIDs also have her attention

    Parent
    California (none / 0) (#15)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:52:27 PM EST
    has a High Speed Rail initiative on the ballot in November.  I hope it passes. The Northeast has the Acela, but upgrades can make it a truly high speed corridor.  

    The Midwest and the South needs one too.  In the Midwest, Chicago can be the hub sort of like thisthis but it'll require a lot of hard work.  

    So much work needs to be done and that's why I hope Obama wins.  Hillary can continue the advancements in 2016!  

    Parent

    I watched the news (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by CST on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:37:02 PM EST
    Yesterday for the first time in a while.

    Ugly.

    One economist said "the light at the end of the tunnel" is really a "freight train headed our way" and that it is only gonna get worse.  Frightening stuff.

    Also the media is turning on Palin with respect to lack of accessibility.  I even saw the boys over at Fox complaining about this.

    The bad economic news has definitely taken over the airwaves.  The "silly season" is on temporary leave.

    One of the many things that bothers me (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:09:09 PM EST
    about McCain is that he still adheres to the view that the only mistake we made in Vietnam was not staying until we had achieved "victory."
    This view clearly motivates his mantra that we can't leave Iraq until we achieve victory, whatever that means.  Of course, the insistence on victory makes me wonder why he thinks we would be staying there for a hundred years after we've gotten people to stop shooting at us (assuming that ever happens).

    So I think that John McCain didn't win the Vietnam War for us, but we would have if we'd only listened to him. And he will win the Iraq War for us now, even if it kills us.

    Winning the Iraq War only evens the score up 1-1 (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by steviez314 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:26:08 PM EST
    He'll need a new war to break the tie.

    Parent
    I hear that.... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:31:02 PM EST
    people still running around saying the problem in Vietnam was that we didn't drop enough bombs are people I want nowhere near the controls of our war machine.

    Parent
    Who says Republicans aren't socialists? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by steviez314 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:30:49 PM EST
    Fed to Give A.I.G. $85 Billion Loan and Take 80% Stake


    I'm so sick of these.... (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:37:14 PM EST
    welfare queens...I wish these lazy incompetent people would just lift themselves up by their bootstraps and achieve anyway, in spite of the obstacles....I know its hard to be blue-blood ivy league masters of the universe, but nobody said life was fair...:)

    Parent
    25 billion more (none / 0) (#35)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:35:18 PM EST
    and we can have universal health care for a year.  Hillary's health care plans cost $110 billion a year and I hope Obama takes it up if he wins.  

    Parent
    The real reason why Obama may lose (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Lora on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:29:19 PM EST
    It's long but it's worth it:  a post today at the Brad Blog by Mark Crispin Miller.
    Some outstanding quotes:

    In fact, the only way that Palin and her doddering partner can prevail in this election is by stealing it, as Bush and Cheney did (both times). Certainly the ground has been prepared for yet another stolen race, Bush/Cheney's party having made enormous strides in sabotaging our election system (while the Democrats just sat there, whistling). Now, from coast to coast, it's far more difficult (for Democrats) to register to vote, and far more difficult (for Democrats) to cast their votes, while countless (Democratic) voters have been stricken from the rolls, through purges carried out by the Department of Justice.

    That is what it takes to steal elections in America--all of that, and also something else: a quick-'n-easy explanation for the outcome. For if those final numbers are surprising, there must be some rationale that can (apparently) account for them. And that is why the Bush machine put Sarah Palin next to John McCain. By arousing the hard core of vocal Christianists, they prepared the ground for the eventual redeployment of the same canard with which they justified their last unlikely "win": that millions of believers did the trick.

    Obama cannot win without challenging the dirty tricks at every point, and without the rest of us opening our eyes to the lies and cover-ups the media is so eager to embrace and promote.

    Have you seen the stories on foreclosures? (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:44:01 PM EST
    Mark Crispin Miller's book is a must read: Fooled Again; The Real Case for Electoral Reform. He details how the right stole the 2004 Election and how they're planning to steal 2008.

    Further to that end, it looks like the GOP is in the process of using home foreclosure lists to kick people off the voter rolls. These are lower income folks who tend to vote Democratic. Talk about getting screwed coming and going.

    So far, I've seen the following two stories on the subject; one from Ohio and one from Michigan.

    LINK: Will Foreclosures Affect Voting Rolls? Ohio Election Officials Worry About Voters Still Registered At Houses They've Lost.(COLUMBUS, Ohio, 7/06/08).

    LINK: Lose your house, lose your vote Michigan Republicans plan to foreclose African-American voters (9/10/08).

    Parent

    Today (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:32:08 PM EST
    the Obama campaign filed a lawsuit in federal court in Michigan to shut down the GOP plan to disenfranchise voters using foreclosure lists.  So they're taking it seriously.  We'll see what happens.

    Parent
    I hoped you'd pick up on this again... (none / 0) (#55)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:46:58 PM EST
    Why do you think Obama isn't making an issue of this on the stump, in interviews, etc? A few days ago, I thought he should hold back till non-pols got the ball rolling.  

    Do you know if any other entity is suing over this.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#60)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:47:37 PM EST
    the Michigan Democratic Party is a plaintiff in the lawsuit, along with a number of Michigan residents who are apparently on the foreclosure lists.

    I would speculate that since they decided to pursue the legal route, making a big issue of it on the stump might hurt the lawsuit and make the judge think it was filed just as a way of scoring political points.  I'm very interested to see what judge the case gets assigned to.

    Parent

    You're right, it wouldn't be (none / 0) (#69)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 12:39:10 PM EST
    appropriate for Obama to be stumping about the issue in view of the lawsuit. But the silence is maddening!

    Parent
    How does the use of foreclosure lists... (none / 0) (#63)
    by EL seattle on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 12:37:20 AM EST
    ... to disenfranchise voters compare with the sort of "bareknuckle political techniques" that were used by Obama's team in one of his first election fights?

    I'm sure they're very different, but his team probably wants to be careful not to provide "then and now" ammo for negative ads against his candidacy.

    Parent

    I wish (none / 0) (#50)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:26:11 PM EST
    more people would pay attention to what you are posting.

    Parent
    According to NPR's (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:28:07 PM EST
    man on the ground, Palin dropped the bridge to nowhere stuff from her stump speech today.  

    She did that once before (none / 0) (#13)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    only to resurrect it a few days later.

    Even this morning, McCain was still saying that she never requested earmarks after she became governor.

    A bigger question, IMO, is the extent to which the McCain campaign in involved in Palin's attempts to avoid being questioned in the Troopergate investigation.  Both McCain and Palin are now claiming that the investigation is "partisan" and intended to distract from the campaign.

    Of course, when the investigation started, it was well before Palin became a national candidate, and Palin initially said it was an appropriate subject to investigate and pledged cooperation. I guess its only become partisan because now it will be embarrassing to McCain as well as her.

    Parent

    In my opinion (none / 0) (#16)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    they have started to seriously overplay their hand in the last few days concerning the Palin backlash.  She was a sympathetic figure at first, but now they're just starting to look paranoid.

    Parent
    eh (none / 0) (#3)
    by connecticut yankee on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:30:46 PM EST
    Think I just got a political call in spanish (in FL).  I dont have the slightest idea who it was for but I read McCain was push-polling hispanics down here.

    I tried to get further by hitting buttons but it disconnected me.

    If you get one, it's not one or two. heh.

    Bushie learned something from Katrina (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:34:21 PM EST
    "Don't let the TV show dead bodies floating in America."

    So, we are starting to get reports that there are about 1500 dead bodies stuck in trees and floating in the Galveston area.

    And the Army is taking all cameras and the local governments will not talk to the press.

    Not for nothing, during the immediate post-landfall coverage during the day Saturday, after the worst of the storm had passed, I was watching MSNBC and they apologized a couple times for being unable to get helicopter videos of the damage, and what we were able to get were pictures of boats on streets and such.  Their excuses were basically that they could not get to the Galveston area because the airspace had been closed to all except rescue flights.

    It's been the better part of a week, and still, no pictures.

    I think the reports of thousands of dead are, likely, true.

    So, are you going to sit back and swallow another city destroyed by Bushie's crew, or are you going to push to find out the truth?


    On one of the evening news broadcasts, video of (none / 0) (#14)
    by jawbone on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:52:09 PM EST
    Bolivar Point shown. On penninsula with lots of houses--none. And a whole lot more sand closer to building still standing.

    People interviewed said there were many missing--no idea where they were. Helicopter which was supposed to come to rescue some never made it....

    You may be correct. Amazing how they treat the American public like children who aren't able to stand the idea of deaths. Wow. But we shall see, right.

    How may were never recovered from Katrina? Close to a 1000?

    See Dr. Jeff Master's blog for before and after photos of Bolivar Pt.

    Parent

    To all the follow-up posters (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:26:13 PM EST
    you just don't seem to get the point of my main post:

    1.  A lot of Galveston and many smaller towns along the Texas coast were wiped off the map.  In some cases, the whole island(s) on which the towns were built was moved.
    2.  Many people lived there.  Some evacuated, some not.
    3.  Since Saturday, no one not in the military, police and selected public utilities/public servants has been allowed in there, especially the press.  And that goes doubly for helicopters and planes.  The weather has nicened up since Saturday, such that the airspace does not have to be closed.
    4.  The reports are starting to filter out (as in the linked report), that the military is confiscating cameras.  Local government officials have been forbidden to speak to the press.
    5.  The people who did not evacuate are not showing up - if they were still on the islands, and alive, doubtless you would have seen reports from someone allowed to ride along as the food, water and ice were being handed out by the heroic rescue workers.  You haven't seen that, have you?
    6.  The reports are starting to filter out that there are many, many bodies in the trees, debris and floating in the waterways.  But there are no pictures.  The stories about survivors are not supported with pictures, and are quick confirmations from Deputy Fife or someone similar that everything's fine here, nothing to see.

    So, unless and until the people who did not evacuate start showing up, I contend that what you are seeing is what a declaration of martial law in a limited area looks like from the outside, and that the rescue workers are busy collecting corpses for quiet disposal.

    I suspect the story will start to fall together after the election, when it cannot hurt Republicans the way pictures of people wallowing in New Orleans and dying in the streets did.

    Parent

    Scribe, this is astounding news... (none / 0) (#47)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:49:34 PM EST
    And you're right. If the area is devastated with more than a thousand people dead, the GOP will muzzle the media to suppress the story for as long as humanly possible.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#18)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:59:47 PM EST
    gotta explain how this is the evil bush fault.

    Parent
    Ditto. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:53:52 PM EST
    After Katrina, after Galveston 1906, I think people ought to understand what it means to be on low lying coasts or islands directly in the path of a major hurricane.  It means that you'd best hope that G_d saves you, because no one else is that powerful.

    I'm beginning to be resigned to the fact that some people will just not listen to any argument and will do what they want, no matter how dangerous.

    Parent

    While the two of you are correct (none / 0) (#45)
    by scribe on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:30:01 PM EST
    in noting the idiocy of anyone remaining on the barrier islands and towns built on them during a hurricane, that is the theme being pushed to keep people diverted from asking the dirty questions:

    1.  Where are the people who did not evacuate?
    2.  Why cannot the press come into the areas worst hit?
    3.  How many people are missing?

    The idiocy of remaining is a bright, shiny object being used to both distract from those questions, and allow easy passing judgment on the missing and dead such that they won't be missed.  After all, it was all their own fault.

    Parent
    If they are alive (none / 0) (#66)
    by Fabian on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 04:10:38 AM EST
    then I'm interested.  If they are dead, then I am no longer interested.  I assume their bodies will be found in due course.  Besides, if one were trying to find survivors who require assistance, it would be very helpful to remove anyone who doesn't require assistance or isn't in the business of providing assistance from the scene.

    I really don't understand the public's compulsion to be present at the scene of a disaster.  Or perhaps I do, it's just that I'd prefer all that energy be used for NOT being at or in a disaster.  I had only a few glimpses of cable coverage immediately before and during Ike, but what I did did not please me.  The presence of media tends to keep people in dangerous areas, people who don't have the same resources that a cable crew does.

    Parent

    I think that, once again, (none / 0) (#21)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:03:59 PM EST
    they relied on compliance with the evacuation order, and weren't prepared to do large scale search and rescue.

    People got into NOLA, how come they can't get into Galveston? Are there no bridges left?

    Parent

    I was wondering (none / 0) (#23)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:05:26 PM EST
    what happened to all the people who stayed behind. It wasn't a small number, yet not much news on them. And the numbers that I heard, as far as being rescued, seemed too low.

    Parent
    There have been sporadic reports (none / 0) (#27)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:13:41 PM EST
    and videotaped interviews of people who stayed behind but subsequently got out.  But I haven't seen anything about people who remain stranded, or casualties.

    Where is Anderson Cooper when you need him?

    Parent

    Exactly, there's a weird void there (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:22:59 PM EST
    I wish I could remember the numbers they were talking about before Ike hit, but it seems to have contrasted from the numbers they said needed rescue after.

    AC was up in Houston during the storm. I'm trying to remember who was down by the bay/island/etc.

    Parent

    In fairness to the media and the Government... (none / 0) (#38)
    by santarita on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:57:36 PM EST
    Saturday the weather was still pretty bad.  They have now had two good days to start going from house to house (or the remnants thereof) and look for survivors and non-survivors.  Their task is made difficult by the debris and flood waters and they have to ascertain whether the people got out before the hurricane.  There was one chilling tale by a survivor on Bolivar who talked about seeing her friend swept away.  

    I'm not saying that local, state and federal officials didn't drop the ball again.  I think they and media needed to educate the public beforehand about the dangers and I think they needed to somehow do a better job of making evacuation more palatable.

    The media take their eye off the story for the new news.  The story of the devastation in Texas is not over.  It may just be beginning.

    Parent

    This wasn't the worst case scenario. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 08:15:34 PM EST
    No matter how bad it is and will be - this wasn't even the worst case scenario.  Ike wasn't even a Cat 3, moved fast, the surge wasn't as high as predicted, and he didn't stall and dump rain on one spot or pound one area with high winds.

    Evacuation will always be a trial and trauma and expensive.  People who stay will use the strain of evacuation to justify facing the dangers they face.  "Oh, it's just not worth all that." and they'll insist that they have prepared adequately.

    Enforced evacuation of the highest risk areas will reduce the number of holdouts, but we'll never reduce the number to zero.

    Parent

    It's being dominated by the economy (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:36:57 PM EST
    actually.

    Very MUCH so! (none / 0) (#11)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:44:46 PM EST
    It's got equal time with the power outage here - and that is saying something.

    BTW - just got power back.  Still got a downed tree lying on top of my paw paw patch, which I was quite pleased with.  

    (Unfortunately, I rather expected that to happen.  Not my tree, just a spindly remnant that the developer left exposed to the winds.  It beats my bro whose silver maple dropped a chunk of itself on his house.  Damage uncertain - but he never lost power.  Comme ci, comme ca.)

    Parent

    PPP Va. poll (none / 0) (#8)
    by WS on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 05:38:42 PM EST
    is said to have good news for Obama according to Open Left.

    Pakistan (none / 0) (#19)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:00:56 PM EST
    I had lunch with a friend who voted for Gore in 2000, and Bush in 2004 (yeah, I  know). He is now a "probable" Obama supporter, based on  economic issues, but he still thinks that McCain is better on national security.  We discussed the Bush Doctrine -- he, a securities lawyer, was fully conversant with it! -- and whether the Iraq War has in fact made us safer.  His view is that it has, because now "the Arabs know not to f*** with us."  My view that this sort of approach has been counterproductive didn't make much of an impression on him. When I pointed out the Pakistani order to shoot US and NATO troops to him, his response was, "They don't mean it."

    Now this is an intelligent, sophisticated man.  And he thinks that we can just ignore how the Muslim world reacts to us, and can ignore their resistance to our aggression. (He also didn't have an answer to why Bush let OBL escape to Pakistan in the first place, or why he didn't chase him there when we first invaded Afghanistan, when there would have been far more international support for such a move.)

    Anyway, the point of my rambling is that media coverage of the situation in Pakistan may not affect all voters the way that we expect it too. It surprises me, but in even liberal NYC, there are some people who actually support the continuation of a cowboy foreign policy.

    Fortunately, my friend thinks McCain is an economic moron.

    Hey now (none / 0) (#20)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:02:46 PM EST
    You are making us securities lawyers look bad.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:06:24 PM EST
    the basic rule of politics: Strong and wrong beats weak and right everytime.

    You can try to reason with people but the majority of people are never going to buy Obama's national security argument. A lot of his problem is cultural not just his lack of experience.

    Parent

    Cultural? (none / 0) (#26)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:12:10 PM EST
    I don't understand that.

    BTW, I am a securities lawyer too.

    Parent

    How do all you security lawyers have time to post? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by steviez314 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:18:54 PM EST
    You're going to be the busiest people in the world for the next few years, right behind the bankruptcy lawyers.

    And I'm a trader!

    Parent

    You can do a lot of posting (none / 0) (#56)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:49:58 PM EST
    during really large conference calls that drone on and one and on.....

    Parent
    yeah. (2.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:17:54 PM EST
    He comes off as more european than american. Or like an american ex pat. Hailing from the south side of chicago, living as a child in indonesia, growing up in hawaii, going to private schools etc.

    Parent
    Seriously? (none / 0) (#48)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:20:08 PM EST
    I'm sure you are well aware that McCain spent years in Vietnam, went to prestigious private schools, and travels abroad!  And Arizona used to be part of Spanish territory.  My god, these furrners.

    Parent
    AND he was born in the Panama C.Z. (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by litigatormom on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:54:00 PM EST
    There was a whole debate earlier in the campaign (generated mostly by his GOP rivals) that he wasn't eligible to be President because he wasn't a "natural born" citizen because he wasn't born in a state -- even though he was born to two U.S. citizens. It had something to do with the timing of  various statutes governing the citizenship of people born overseas to U.S. citizens.

    It was a fairly stupid argument, IMO, but Hawaii has got to be less "foreign" than the Canal Zone.

    IMO, the whole "foreign" meme is a euphemism for his being, you know, black.  

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
    I don't think it's race based. He does have dual citizenship and his father was not an American citizen plays more into that.

    Parent
    I don't see race. (none / 0) (#62)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:20:42 PM EST
    However, I find it difficult to see Obama when he stands in corners....<snark>

    Parent
    McCain (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:24:35 PM EST
    didn't grow up overseas did he? He was in Vietnam as an adult. Also his name contributes to that belief along with his dual citizenship.

    You can make fun of this kind of stuff but it matters to voters. Especially those voters that Obama so desperately needs right now.

    Parent

    It actually matter to voters? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by onemanrules on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 01:30:05 AM EST
    That's is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. I've heard nobody say they won't vote for Obama because of any point you mentioned, or that they even care about any of that crap. To come up with such an assinine assertion just means you have way too much time on your hands or that you enjoy displaying your ignorance. The major non-issue problem that Obama has is the color of his skin which is a very sad commentary on the state of affairs here in america.
    I'll take somebody who forgoes a big money job to become a community organizer for $12000/year over a guy with seven houses anyday. At least one of the two showed they actually cared about the common person.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 04:07:19 AM EST
    are using anecdotal information. Why isn't Obama doing better in the polls? You tell me what the problem is then?

    Parent
    Prove to me that it does. (none / 0) (#51)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:27:13 PM EST
    Prove to me that this isn't just right wing nonsense about even being American being something that one has to be "experienced enough" to be.  

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:32:57 PM EST
    are talking in circles.

    There's nothing about experience. It's about having lived in an exotic foreign country. Kerry's going to school in Switzerland hurt him in 2004. Why don't you think that Obama's name, background and dual citizenship won't hurt him?

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#54)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 09:45:27 PM EST
    that was Kerry's biggest problem.

    Please explain again, as to why McCain's vast experience, private schooling, and wealth, are not alienating to American voters, while maintaining your framework of "living in foreign countries sucks, even if you're 8."

    Parent

    You (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 10:12:09 PM EST
    want my personal opinion? It's not alienating lots of Americans because he 1. doesn't talk down to the voters like Obama. 2. Obama has lots of wealth too so that's a wash with the voters. 3. Private schools? Obama's were even more elite than McCain's I believe but even if they aren't it's still a wash right?

    Obama has even touted his living in Indonesia as qualifications for the Presidency right?

    Parent

    I can't believe (none / 0) (#61)
    by lilburro on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 11:19:34 PM EST
    that much of the electorate associates Obama with Indonesia...he has sort of played it down (guess why).  I doubt it is CW.  I doubt it ranks up there with "Change" and "Hope."  What was he supposed to do?  Scream "return me to America!!!" to his mom...when he was 8?????

    Also, McCain went to one of the preppiest of the prep high schools.  DC area.  That phrase IMO has meaning to non-DC ers.  Maybe I'm just a Philly fanatic.  But I think we are fired up always to see through the BS.  So, one state is blue.  I don't think Obama went to a school with nearly the sense of privilege and entitlement until he was in his college years.

    Not that it matters much.  Common sense is what people respect, and if the economy is an issue, Obama has winning odds, IMO.


    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 04:11:19 AM EST
    not. A lot of his cultural problems are not of his own making but lots of them are.

    Look, all of this is a matter of perception. Obama's sense of entitlement plays right into his cultural problems. It doesn't matter than Obama has only one mansion while McCain has several. It's just like 2004 unfortunately. McCain comes off as the "regular guy" and Obama comes off as "the european".

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    How on earth... (none / 0) (#68)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Sep 17, 2008 at 08:36:05 AM EST
    ...is the Southside of Chicago even remotely "European"?  Unless you're comparing it to London after the Blitz--even that is a stretch.

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    Hallelujah! AIG is saved! (none / 0) (#39)
    by ChiTownDenny on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 06:58:25 PM EST
    We can all sleep well tonight.

    Looks Like Uncle Sam Just Got ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by santarita on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    into the insurance business - big time.  80% stake in AIG.  Or so the NYTimes reports.

    Can we expect a slice.... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 16, 2008 at 07:13:04 PM EST
    if AIG starts turning a profit again, like how every Alaskan gets a cut of the oil money?

    Parent