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Like Bush, McCain Lies To The American People

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:14:18 PM EST
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Via Josh Marshall, the John McCain campaign admits he will lie to the American People as the candidate and if he becomes President:

McCain seems to have made a choice that many politicians succumb to but that he had always promised to avoid — he appears ready to do whatever it takes to win, even it if soils his reputation. . . . McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said . . . "We recognize it’s not going to be 2000 again . . . But he lost then. We’re running a campaign to win. And we’re not too concerned about what the media filter tries to say about it.”

George Bush won in 2000 by lying and continued lying to the American People as President. John McCain promises more of the same - the same Bush lies to the American People we have seen for 8 years. As Barack Obama says, it is time to say "enough!" Enough of the Bush policies and the Bush lies. Even if they now come from John McCain.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Like Bush, McCain Lies To The American People | 59 comments (59 topical)

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    Too Late. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Brillo on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:29:44 PM EST
    The press could spend every day till the election pointing out the fact that McCain is lying through his teeth, and it wouldn't matter.  Everybody in the public knows that he's a straight talking maverickey reformer.  

    It appears (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by rooge04 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:44:12 PM EST
    that rational thought on the Democratic side of political discourse has gone the way of the dodo bird.  Good heavens there is an ENORMOUS gulf of difference betweeen Obama's policies and McCain's.  They are not the same.  I'm not even a big fan of Obama. But I'm a huge fan of the Democratic party platform...and even when I feel it's failing, I'm invested in helping it up.

    Derangement is not pretty in any of its forms.

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:32:09 PM EST
    Too late for the Obama haters, many of whom are posting in this thread.

    A bunch of idiots who are the flip side of Josh Marshall.

    Parent

    You have (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:15:28 PM EST
    to realize that McCain has been cultivating that image for years while people don't know much about Obama still. You can call him a liar and I think most people will believe it but they also believe that Obama is a liar. FISA could be used as an example of lying to voters.  It's the all politicians lie mindset. It's also another personal attack that's not about issues. How is calling McCain names any better than doing it to Palin other than she's the VP candidate?

    I think Obama may be too late with some of this stuff. It's starting to remind me of Kerry in 2004 when he ran a great campaign after Labor day but it wasn't enough. He should have spent the summer doing the kind of thing that you are advocating.

    Parent

    You have to realize (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:23:13 PM EST
    that images can be broken and McCain is breaking his and now Obama is piling on.

    Conme on. What is going here with some of you?

    Parent

    Nothing (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:29:52 PM EST
    Just keeping it in the real zone. I know you desperately want Obama to win. Just don't let it cloud your judgement on some issues.

    I know that images can be broken. The problem is that it's a lot harder to do with a known quantity, a point you seem to be missing here. The kind of thing that Obama is NOW should have been done literally months ago. It looks like sheer desperation right now. And it probably is coming from desperation but maybe Obama being desperate is a GOOD thing because the hubris has been absolutely deadly so far.

    Remember in 2004 when you said Kerry ran a good campaign after Labor day until the election? Obama seems to be following that pattern and it's very frustrating to see the same losing pattern over and over again.

    Parent

    Wrong People... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Brillo on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:42:34 PM EST
    I'm not talking about them, I'm talking about the various 'swing' voters, independents, moderates, etc.  The Obama haters don't care if McCain is a liar, the Obama lovers already know he is.  The rest aren't gonna change their mind just cause Chuck Todd or the NYT says McCain isn't the Straight Talking Maverick they've already decided he is.  

    Parent
    Nooo (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:45:02 PM EST
    You are imagining such people.

    Parent
    Nah... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Brillo on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:49:12 PM EST
    I know em.  

    Parent
    Ah (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:51:00 PM EST
    The famous anecdotal conclusions.

    Sheesh.

    I thought we had gotten rid of your type from my threads.

    Parent

    Oh Yeah... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Brillo on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:04:21 PM EST
    'My type.'  Your assertion that those people don't exist is just as unsupported as mine that they do.  Are you sure you're not 'one of us'?  

    Anyways, I'm pretty well convinced that attacking McCain's truthfulness isn't going to work.  Trying to change people's minds on something they've already gotten so fixed in their heads usually just fails.  

    Parent

    Anecdotal evdience (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:05:38 PM EST
    for providing political advice is what I meant.

    There are people who believe there are little green men at Area 51. I do not consider them politically significant.

    Parent

    Anecdotes Suck... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Brillo on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:13:19 PM EST
    But they're quicker to throw out than looking up some actual poll numbers to illustrate my point.  For example, how many people think Saddam was responsible for 911, or that John McCain is Pro-Choice, or that Barack Obama is a Muslim.  You get these ideas into people's heads, and they don't come out.  At least not from a pretty significant number of people.  

    All I was trying to say is that the public is more likely to trust their years of understanding of McCain as a 'straight talker' and maverick, than they are the media suddenly pointing out that he's lying through his teeth.  

    Do you honestly think that a few news stories this week calling McCain out for lying are really going to undo years of public perception of who he is?

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:14:48 PM EST
    Bring back some quantitative data please.

    My threads are replete with polling analysis.

    Parent

    36% of independents have a (none / 0) (#48)
    by steviez314 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:19:03 PM EST
    'somewhat favorable' view of McCain.  That's a big pool to work with to get them to unfavorable and move a few percent.

    Parent
    Though I wish you weren't right about this (none / 0) (#57)
    by shoephone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:24:45 PM EST
    I'm afraid you are. Brooke Gladstone make the exact same point last night on Bill Moyers -- the theory of not being able to "unring the bell" once it has been rung, whether there is truth to it or not.

    McCain is a lying snake but the voters who think he is a straight talker will not be moved.

    Parent

    It is really good... (none / 0) (#60)
    by prose on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:02:43 PM EST
    to see you say that.  

    Parent
    Attack The Enemy's Strengths (none / 0) (#28)
    by FreakyBeaky on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:43:41 PM EST
    That was someone's advice, and although he was one loathsome dude, you have to admit it works ... and in this case you don't have to make up any lies to do it.  McCain/Palin is manufacturing them left and right.  

    Parent
    When he is sitting on the couch on The View (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:19:08 PM EST
    and even they are calling him a liar, I think it is safe to say that it has some traction.  

    He got a little maverick injection from the Palin pick, but it would wear off if Dems started treating her like any other boring VP candidate.


    Parent

    God forbid! (none / 0) (#53)
    by rooge04 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:38:15 PM EST
    They know the way to win and make her a non-issue is to ignore her.  But they cannot help themselves. They are as riled up about her as the right-wing is.

    Parent
    Doesn't this describe MANY politicians (2.25 / 4) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:17:06 PM EST
    from both sides?

    Didn't Josh Marshall say the same (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:25:03 PM EST
    about Hillary over and over?  Josh Marshall's outrage simply doesn't move me. I think McCain is all wrong for the country, but too many of the people Like Josh, Joshua Green at Atlantic.com The Nation, Ezra Klein, Harold Meyerson and the list is endless took the same tack with Hillary.  They are simply shills.

    Parent
    Atre you capable of any outrage on your own? (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:29:54 PM EST
    Do you really want McCain's drive to win Bush's Third Term using Bush's Rovian tactics defeated?

    Some of you Obama haters are no better than Marshall.

    Parent

    Unfortunately all of those I mentioned (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by hairspray on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:11:05 AM EST
    had no journalistic standards of fairness. Now I could care less what happens to them.  It has nothing to do with Obama.

    Parent
    It's true JMM is a twit ... (2.00 / 0) (#24)
    by FreakyBeaky on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:39:46 PM EST
    ... but that doesn't mean 2+2=5 of he says its 4.  Look, the McCain campaign is playing fast and loose with the facts the same way the Bush campaign did twice.  How'd that work out?  You don't have to depend on zeroes like Marshall - I don't.  

    Parent
    Typical logic" (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Faust on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:36:33 PM EST
    "It's all the same so it doesn't matter what I do."

    This attitude didn't do the country a lot of favors in 2000 and it won't do the country a lot of favors now.  

    Parent

    No (2.00 / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:23:04 PM EST
    This describes George Bush and John McCain.

    Parent
    Only in your partisan mind (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by cib on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:26:06 PM EST
    Sorry BTD. Too much lying on both sides. Even if I eventaully vote for one party or the other I'm not going to stop praying for the destruction of both. Luckily the liars on both sides are helping to bring my wish to fruition.

    Parent
    Excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:30:50 PM EST
    Onyl an idiot could equate Goerge Bush's lies and John McCain's lies to the typical actions of politicans.

    Have you learned nothing these past 8 years.

    Some of you are just as idiotic as Josh Marshall.

    Parent

    Remember when idiots claimed (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Gabriel on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:33:45 PM EST
    there was no difference between Bush or Gore as President?

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:35:25 PM EST
    And here they are again.

    Parent
    Sorry but I don't buy that cute little excuse (1.00 / 1) (#25)
    by cib on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:41:13 PM EST
    A liar is a liar is a liar. Why the heck you should think we should believe Barack OChicago is any more honest than George W Bush or John McCain?

    Until people like you start punishing your own parties when they misbheave, we can expect nothing but lies from our politicians. Guess what my brothers did last election? They both voted for an imaginary candidate. That's what elections in this country have come to, and excuse making for OBama won't help at all. Nor will calling people who don't like shams of elections stupid.

    Vote for Obama because you think he'll gore your ox less than the other guy, or because one of your political friends will benefit, or because he's beholden to your special interest group. But don't you dare compare Obama to Bush or McCain when you know nothing about how honest Obama will be when in office. He might manage to outlie Georgie Porgie Bushie, he might not. Hypotheticals, hypotheticals.  Cast your vote, take your chances!

    Parent

    I could not care less what you buy (2.00 / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:46:24 PM EST
    You want buy 4 more years of Bush's policies apparently.

    To me, that makes you a n idiot.

    You can take your nonsense to other threads. Stay out of my posts.

    Parent

    NBC rips into McCain... (none / 0) (#2)
    by white n az on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:22:58 PM EST
    Wheels Come Off the Straight Talk Express

    Politico explains it all

    Clearly the press is turning on McCain - I wonder if it's a winning strategy

    I quoted the McCain spokesman (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:23:39 PM EST
    Not NBC or anyone else.

    Parent
    I know (none / 0) (#11)
    by white n az on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:29:35 PM EST
    but both of those links dissect the McCain messaging philosophy with more verbiage.

    Parent
    I should add... (none / 0) (#8)
    by white n az on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:27:34 PM EST
    that the press sort of gave Bush a pass because he was the guy they wanted to have a beer with - but I suspect they liked him because he was unexceptional, unremarkable and not expected to know any better.

    I think that the press has higher expectations of McCain and he's failing to reach them. Plus there is a big difference between 2000 and 2008 - i.e, a pointless war, prosperity vs. looming depression, health care system completely out of whack, a mismanaged government, etc.

    Thanks for that list! (none / 0) (#9)
    by steviez314 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:29:20 PM EST
    Now I want to have a beer, with a valium chaser :)

    Parent
    But BTD... (none / 0) (#26)
    by lambert on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:42:28 PM EST
    What McCain says is:

    And we're not too concerned about what the media filter tries to say about it."

    It's Marshall that equates that to lying.

    I equate it to lying (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:44:27 PM EST
    And when he compares what happened in 2000 with Bush, that makes the equation quite sound.

    Parent
    Feh (none / 0) (#39)
    by lambert on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:01:07 PM EST
    We truly are doomed. Silber, God help us all, is right.

    Parent
    We're doomed if wer get 4 more years of Bush via (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:03:13 PM EST
    McCain.

    I did not click your link.

    My proposition is simple, I have no patience for those who think there is no difference between McCain and Obama.

    Parent

    If it's NOT the economy, stupid... (none / 0) (#63)
    by lambert on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:14:29 PM EST
    ... we're doomed either way. Different speeds and momentums of doom, I grant, so, not the same, as you say. Sorry -- I'm just a citizen: Tier Three, if you will (or possibly Zero).

    Parent
    Josh Marshall's statement doesn't (none / 0) (#65)
    by Bob K on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:58:33 PM EST
    say the Mccain campaign admitted to lying. He made statement that allows the reader to infer he is talking about McCain.

    You on the other hand say as fact, the Mcain campaign admits to lying. No where have they made any such admission.

    I'm surprised you would deceive your own readers. Maybe you should consider rephrasing what you wrote. It doesn't reflect well on you or the Democratic party.

    Parent

    I am surprised (none / 0) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:13:05 AM EST
    That you need it spelt out for you.

    But some people are stupid.

    Oh, I called you stupid.

    Parent

    BTD why the irrational response? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Bob K on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 09:09:19 AM EST
    I'm sure your readers appreciate accuracy. Don't they deserve it?

    You don't attempt to disprove anything I wrote. I suggested the possibility of rephrasing what you wrote. You didn't even have to reply. A simple rephrasing of what you wrote would have been enough.    

    You use the word democrat in your nom de plume. Do you think what you write will not be interpreted by some as possibly typical of the Democratic party brand?

    I'm unaffiliated and frankly I say a pox on both your brands. Unfortunately, one of the two brands is going to win. I have to make a decision. Why do you want to drive people like me away?

    Parent

    Saying "like Bush, McCain ... (none / 0) (#37)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 08:59:40 PM EST
    lies to the American public" is the right construction.

    It equates McCain's lies to very specific type of lies.  A type of lie the public doesn't like.

    It creates a picture in voters' minds of the specific nature of McCain's lies.

    That's politics done right.

    This is only a joke I heard (none / 0) (#44)
    by steviez314 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:13:35 PM EST
    It has not been approved by the candidate:)

    Q:  How can you tell when McCain and Palin are lying?

    A:  Their lipstick moves.

    McCain Lies In Spanish Too! (none / 0) (#54)
    by john horse on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 09:48:06 PM EST
    You know I never thought any politician could top George Bush in the category of serial lying but Bush has met his match in McCain.

    Per TPM, McCain not only lies in English but, now he also lies in Spanish.  Even Bush didn't do that.

    i'm sorry (none / 0) (#59)
    by DefenderOfPants on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 10:57:30 PM EST
    but those are some pretty weak examples. especially compared to the lies coming from the McCain camp.

    are you serious? (none / 0) (#70)
    by DefenderOfPants on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:23:33 AM EST
    i didn't think it was really necessary to make a list of examples where McCain lied about Obama to point out that your post was ridiculous.

    i mean, really? Obama lied about McCain not being tech-savvy? is that best you could come up with?

    though, something tells me you won't be impressed, here you go:

    just recently, the McCain camp attributed all of the lies and smears directed toward Palin to Barack Obama.

    one ad suggested that Obama skipped visiting injured troops in Germany so that he could work out at the gym and because the Pentagon wouldn't allow him to bring cameras, press, etc.

    McCain has threatened that Obama will raise taxes on Lower and Middle class families. he also blamed Obama for high gas prices?

    i think the worst of all, though, is that ad where McCain tried to paint Obama as sort of creepy pervert by claiming he supported a bill that would teach kindergarteners explicit sex ed.

    despicable.

    there are a lot of examples, but i don't know if i'd call them egregious.

    Parent

    McCain, himself, said (none / 0) (#61)
    by shoephone on Sat Sep 13, 2008 at 11:08:46 PM EST
    he doesn't know much about the economy. Obama was simply repeating what McCain already acknowledged.

    It's fun to see (none / 0) (#67)
    by shoephone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:28:23 AM EST
    how many Republicans are freaked out enough to be commenting at Talk Left these days.

    Parent
    And what was his remedy for not knowing as much (none / 0) (#68)
    by shoephone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 12:37:56 AM EST
    about the economy as he should?

    "I've got Greeenspan's book", he promised.

    He also told David Brooks that in looking for a running mate he would seek someone with qualifications of being well-grounded in economic matters to balance out his lack thereof.

    Need I say more?

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#69)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 02:18:54 AM EST
    he did pick the person who knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America. What more do you want?

    Parent
    She knows more about energy (none / 0) (#71)
    by shoephone on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 03:04:30 AM EST
    than anyone else in America?

    This blog gets funnier day by day.

    Goodnight.


    Parent

    Um (none / 0) (#80)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:48:30 PM EST
    I really shouldn't say things like that here without adding a snark face. It's too much like what people here say and actually mean.

    I'm quoting John McCain, and yes, it is funny, in a sad kind of way.

    Parent

    McCain's Economic Advisors Unimpressive (none / 0) (#79)
    by daring grace on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 11:26:08 AM EST
    See: Gramm, Phil

         "whiners, Nation of"

    Parent

    Constant use of the term "lie" (none / 0) (#72)
    by Prof G on Sun Sep 14, 2008 at 08:07:36 AM EST
    in campaign commentary is misguided.  The term lumps together widely divergent types of political rhetoric, most of which would not be deemed "lies" in ordinary usage.  

    (1) Here is a dictionary definition of lie: "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive."  McCain's statement that the jet was "sold at a profit" is false, although intent to deceive seems questionable.

    (2) Political hyperbole is often conflated with lying.  Thus, Palin's claim to have stopped the "Bridge to Nowhere," and to have said "Thanks, but no thanks," are widely held up as instances of egregious lying.  The first statement is objectively true, however, as she did terminate the bridge, in its existing form, in Sept. 2007.  The validity of the second statement is a matter of interpretation.  Congress as a whole was not actually pushing the bridge at the time she rejected it, and she did not return to Washington the funds that had been allocated to the project.  But members of Alaska's Congressional delegation were still pushing the project at the time it was terminated, and use of the funds for worthier projects obviated the need for at least some future Federal funding.  Palin may have given an excessively populist spin to the episode, but this strikes me as mere exaggeration.  To call this a "lie" seems like a careless overstatement.  

    (3) The term "lie" has been frequently applied to differences in subjective interpretation.  Thus, many claim that the McCain campaign is "lying" when it interprets Obama's "lipstick on a pig" comment as a slur on Palin.  Based on my viewing of the video, however, it seems incontrovertible that the audience made this interpretation.  It strains credulity, in my opinion, to imagine that Obama did not intend at least some connection to Palin's "lipstick" quip.  Clearly, McCain's claim is not false in any objective sense, nor is there intent to deceive.  For such matters of subjective interpretation, the use of the term "lie" is entirely inappropriate.  I believe that the "sex education" ad also falls into this category; McCain's interpretation of the matter is strained, to say the least, but not objectively false.

    I submit that political discourse would become more coherent, and criticisms of the McCain/Palin ticket would earn greater credibility, if the term "lie" were applied only to the first category of political claims.  Claims in the second category are more properly deemed "exaggerations" (as in "Palin exaggerated her role in killing the Bridge to Nowhere"), while claims in the third category are "unpersuasive" (as in "McCain's interpretation of Obama's comment is unpersuasive").  Remember, the first goal of political rhetoric is communication.  Broad-brush application of the term "lie" obscures rather than enlightens.

    Like Bush, McCain Lies To The American People | 59 comments (59 topical)

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