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McCain v. Palin On Preemptive War

John McCain defending preemptive war against Iraq:

Sarah Palin arguing that going to war is a last resort against an "imminent strike" against the American People:

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Media Taking Note of McCain's Dishonest Campaigning | Clueless Sarah Palin: ABC Interview >
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  • Display: Sort:
    What intelligence about imminence (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:18:36 PM EST
    does she think would be reliable? Revelations?

    Wow... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kredwyn on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:16:28 PM EST
    interesting...mean...but interesting...

    Parent
    Mean? Bush and McCain had little use (none / 0) (#26)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:26:23 PM EST
    for NIE's. They knew. Why wouldn't she?

    She already knows the Russians were unprovoked.

    Parent

    what does that have to do (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kredwyn on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:29:09 PM EST
    with Revelations?

    Parent
    There's an interesting wedge. (none / 0) (#1)
    by Salo on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:47:23 PM EST
    well done there. See if the wizzards at the DNC can use it to create a winning argument.

    I wouldn't count on it... (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by skuld1 on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:05:02 PM EST
    How did the rest of the interview go? (none / 0) (#2)
    by coigue on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:50:06 PM EST


    No idea (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:58:24 PM EST
    A fuller transcript than others at the moment (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by andrys on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:29:22 PM EST
    on the war segments

    He misquotes here again leaving out the prefacing sentence on the "task from God" thing...

    Her full statement as published in a few papers
    was a call that they pray THAT this war is 'a task from god' ... said in fragmented sentences, parts of which were picked up as whole, standalone sentences.

    An AP story at HuffPost

    http://volokh.com/posts/1220914092.shtml

    WashPost story

    Wall Street Best of the Web Today 9/9/08

    Matching the statement today, she seems in past fuller reports to be asking the congregants to pray, "also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

        At first, I'd thought her phrase was scary/dangerous, but it seems she was voicing doubt about leaders and a questionable war in a more fitting way for church atmosphere.

        The missing words or preface "[pray] ... that]"
    tend to change the thrust of that.

        Gibson was actually using the quoted sentences without any of the 'praying that' which came up in the fuller-text stories.

    Parent

    I noticed that too (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by BernieO on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 06:52:29 AM EST
    When I first heard about this statement I watched the video clip of her entire statement and it sure sounded to be like she was saying let us pray that ...... our leaders are sending them on a task from God. But that is not how it is being reported.

    Parent
    This rap on Palin has been debunked on several (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by jawbone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 10:51:25 AM EST
    sites, but I fear the MCM* has managed to create new truthiness to fit its Narrative.

    I hated the MCM playing Narrative Editor and Writer when it was done to Dems--and I don't like it now when it's being done to Repubs.

    Just give us the freakin' facts, as best knowable and provable. PLEEEEEEZE!

    It does seem the Repubs are quicker to call out the MCM on distortions against Repubs than Dems often are when it's against Dems--but that may bcz the MCM is owned by those more attuned to the Repub side of things.

    *MCM--Mainstream Corporate Media

    Parent

    McCain shouldn't lose heart though (none / 0) (#3)
    by glanton on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:53:05 PM EST
    And neither should the neocons. Plenty of war to go around for everybody with McCain/Palin Administration.

    Because Palin said in this same bareknuckle interview, that Russia was "unprovoked" in the Georgia conflict.  Unprovoked was the word she used. And said that Georgia and Ukraine should be in NATO.  And expressed perfect willingness to wage war with Russia if that's what the NATO admission were to bring.  

    Last resorts? Hmmm.  Anything can be described as a last resort.  Bush said he'd exhausted diplomacy when he invaded Iraq.

    You might want to read the (none / 0) (#9)
    by nycstray on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:01:27 PM EST
    transcript. Maybe then you won't be blinded by her presence  ;)

    Parent
    I know, I know. PDS (none / 0) (#21)
    by glanton on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:33:33 PM EST
    That's what causes resistance to her expressly cavalier attitude towards the US getting into a war with Russia over the Caucuses.

    If Bush saber rattles or wazes cavalier about War, it's reasonable to call him on it. Same with McCain. Or with any of these clowns running the GOP.  But if it's Palin and you call it out, it's either PDS, sexism, or both.

    Blech.

    Parent

    I think you mean the Caucasus (none / 0) (#27)
    by Don in Seattle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:27:42 PM EST
    The war over the Caucuses happened earlier this year. Mark Penn lost.

    Parent
    Touche (none / 0) (#31)
    by glanton on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:34:30 PM EST
    Freudian slip?  A subliminal error, triggered by reading reams of TL commenters who are angry at the primaries, but pretty darned okay with the spectacle we just witnessed.  Jeez.  When Charlie Gibson wipes up the floor with someone on the verge of getting hands on the levers of power, you know the shark has been jumped.

    Parent
    Thank you for your gracious reaction. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Don in Seattle on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:48:32 PM EST
    I get a bit nervous cracking wise sometimes, especially when it touches on what I know is a sore spot for many. Still, I can't resist a pun.

    Parent
    Yummy, the ticket that promises something for (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:55:26 PM EST
    everyone except a home to live in, and a way to get to and from work that you can afford and a decent education for your children that you can afford so that they too can enjoy a future in the hamster wheel of repaying the unrepayable  national debt....just rambling

    No one (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:59:43 PM EST
    is doing anything on the economic front. Maybe if Obama stood up and said "I'll be Bill Clinton when it comes to ecnomics" that would say something.

    Parent
    After trashing Bill economic legacy? (2.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Prabhata on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:38:09 PM EST
    People forget, but I'm keeping score.  Obama trashed Bill Clinton's economic legacy.   
    The minute he praises Bill, the Republican's will have an ad ready to go.

    Obama attacks Bill Clinton's economic legacy
    By Edward Luce in Washington DC
    Thursday Mar 27 2008 12:40

    Barack Obama on Thursday laid much of the blame for America's unfolding credit crisis on the financial deregulation of the 1990s in his hardest hitting attack so far on the economic legacy of Bill Clinton's administration.


    Link

    Parent
    "World's worst weapons"... (none / 0) (#5)
    by DanAllNews on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:55:45 PM EST
    Love it. Was he quoting Bush, or vice versa?

    Okay (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 09:58:28 PM EST
    So he's an ignorant fool and she's trying hard to convince us she won't be as belligerent as he is.  You really think she's being honest?  Come on, you're not that naive.  If she thinks war should be a last resort, then she would, logically, assert that both Afghanistan and Iraq were awful ideas, since Iraq needs no explanation and Afghanistan was not in any way undertaken with the preparation or planning or cultural committment necessary.  She's spinning a bunch of packaged crap.  Her job is to lie nicely for him.

    They're both nuts.  

    What politician do you honestly (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:02:07 PM EST
    believe?  Particularly you Dadler.  I mean, I've learned the hard way to honestly believe none of them and you knew that ages ago.  Palin looks good when it comes to WAR and she sounds good when it comes to WAR and in the end that will probably be what decides how indys will vote if and when they consider Palin and her stance on when to go to war.

    Parent
    She might end up sounding good (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by nycstray on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:07:06 PM EST
    on energy and a few kitchen table issue. Not necessarily right in our view, but right enough for some with some directness and passion behind it . . .

    Obama really needs to serve some stuff up on that table.

    Parent

    If she thinks war should be a last resort (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:02:37 PM EST
    she probably wouldn't be his running mate....

    Parent
    you know this how, exactly? (none / 0) (#25)
    by kredwyn on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:17:14 PM EST
    Same way you know the reverse. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:28:00 PM EST
    I don't know the reverse... (2.00 / 0) (#30)
    by kredwyn on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:31:11 PM EST
    but then again, I'm not psychic and fully acknowledge that I don't know...

    Parent
    Like when you just knew... (3.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 12:50:15 AM EST
    Obama would flip on abortion?  Its conjecture on Edgers part, just like it was on yours.

    Parent
    I didn't "just know" (none / 0) (#37)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 08:32:04 AM EST
    anything. I cited statements made...and inferred from there re: pandering that I didn't care for.

    And I also pointed out that I didn't like his pandering to the anti-choice crew. I still don't...

    Parent

    My point was... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 08:53:22 AM EST
    your belief on that isnt based off of what hes actually done (voting record) but what you think he'll do, going off of lip service to evangelicals -- none of which said he'd do anything anti choice -- and his vote on a totally separate issue.

    So Id say that any defense Edgar would have put up to support his assertion would have had the same weight as yours did on the abortion issue.

    Parent

    I don't have a belief... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 09:05:37 AM EST
    and when I asked for Edger's process, I got nothing.

    You've asked me for, and I provided, cited evidence with regards to my unease re: Obama and pandering to anti-choice advocates in both the GOP and the Democratic Party.

    I asked for evidence from Edger--links...quotes...something other than what I got.


    Parent

    Little fuzzy on this... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 09:19:18 AM EST
    So you dont believe that Obama will flip on abortion?  Because I was quite sure in that conversation you were saying he would and you based that off of conjecture.

    Parent
    My unease...and my concerns (none / 0) (#41)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 09:44:37 AM EST
    re: Obama

    You've asked me for, and I provided, cited evidence with regards to my unease re: Obama and pandering to anti-choice advocates in both the GOP and the Democratic Party.

    He has, as with other issues (e.g. FISA), been equivocal in his statements on Choice. And that gives me no confidence that he is as pro-choice as some folks think he is.

    The pandering, waffling, and "pastor" quote do not give me confidence that when push comes to shove he will stand up on this issue any more than he stood up on FISA.

    But if you go back to my initial response to Edger, you'll see that I asked after his/her process. And I got nothing...

    Parent

    Ok... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 05:35:08 PM EST
    I was pretty sure you were going beyond expressing mere concern/unease and outright stating that Obama would flip on abortion, based off of conjecture... but I dont feel like going back through 300 posts ago just to make sure.

    Parent
    ummm... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 06:47:07 PM EST
    no.

    Since I don't know where he truly stands on the issue, I don't think that I did that.

    To say that I think he flipped, I'd have to know where he stood in the first place.

    Do I not like his pandering to the anti-choice voters? Absolutely...I do not like that.

    And I don't trust him to take a stand.

    Parent

    I teach argument and critical thinking (none / 0) (#46)
    by kredwyn on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 06:59:03 PM EST
    and frankly, it'd be nice to see how Edger gets to his/her conclusions and what information he/she used to get there.

    Parent
    Fair enough (none / 0) (#47)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 07:07:47 PM EST
    Nice one (none / 0) (#14)
    by s5 on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:14:20 PM EST
    Though I'm not sure it's a winning argument. Both are trying to demonstrate "toughness" and "resolve". In fact, I think you just convinced me of the opposite argument that you're making. If Sarah Palin had come out making the same exact case, but sounded sufficiently secure in her answer (rather than like she was flailing around for it), the inconsistencies between the two would be irrelevant. They could both respond with "we want to protect America!" and that would be that.

    I think you're trying to make a "gotcha" argument, and I'm unconvinced that people care. Keep trying with this one, though. I would love it if you were right and I was wrong.

    Yep (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:22:05 PM EST
    that Bush Doctrine one is a winner.

    You know what the definition of stupidity is right? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

    the Left blogs are proving that that hey are pretty stupid imo.

    Parent

    The original quote was ... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:26:49 PM EST
    from Einstein and it was a definition not of stupidity, but insanity.

    Yup, BTD, you're right the Left Blogs are pretty stupid, and they're also pretty ...

    You fill in the rest.

    Parent

    Or she could wake up the Independents who do not (none / 0) (#15)
    by Christy1947 on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:15:25 PM EST
    like anything about Iraq, and hear somebody who will decide at the drop of intelligence to invade anybody or go to war with Russia. The issue has been fading over against the economy and lipstick on a pig sexism, but the interview tonight could wake them up again.

    It was a gotcha question ... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 10:17:11 PM EST
    and the most the Progosphere can do with her answer is call her a dummy.

    That charge was so effective against Reagan and W.

    And, frankly, even if you accept that she doesn't know what the Bush Doctrine is, I think her answer to the second question makes it clear she does, how does that counter her current narrative:  Hockey Mom going to Washington to clean things up.

    Bush Doctrine (none / 0) (#23)
    by DeanOR on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:09:55 PM EST
    The official Bush US security policy asserts the right to both preemptive and preventive attack.
    At the risk of over-simplification:
    Preemptive: I have the right to shoot my neighbor who has been threatening me and points a gun in my direction.
    Preventive: I have the right to shoot my neighbor because I think he has a gun and think he might use it against me. (The Iraq war.)
    Gibson let her answer the preemptive part and then dropped it without pursuing the more controversial preventive war doctrine.
    He also dropped the Russian attack on Georgia after he said "not provoked" and she said "yes", with no mention of Georgia attacking a disputed territory before the Russians attacked.
    The campaign chose Gibson for a reason.

    Just watched the first part of ABC News... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Oje on Thu Sep 11, 2008 at 11:48:05 PM EST
    I have to say this interview was a 7 on a 10 point scale (or a C-), but that she will not suffer with American voters.

    First, she was not well-prepared for personal questions like her decision to accept the offer. Gov. Palin has had months to think about becoming the VP of the United States, since the first request for vetting materials. She could simply state, I made that decision the day I agreed to John McCain's request to consider me for the vice presidency.

    Second, domestic vs. foreign policy (energy independence). The historical precedent here is FDR (though will a Republican remember him fondly?). In the midst of the Great Depression - when both fascists and communists in Europe were looking outward for colonies and more territory - FDR made it Americans' goal to reform the US government and political economy. In the midst of economic crisis, the U.S. looked relatively inward at a time when other nations became bellicose, and the reform-mindedness and character of our president was no small part (strike against McCain, though). She could have emphasized that the reasonableness - and the flexibility - of our foreign policy options often begin at home, and the crisis facing Americans today is energy independence ("The world becomes more threatening the longer we remain dependent on foreign oil. The more independent we are, the more we can change the threat level throughout the world. For that, I am uniquely qualified as...").

    Third, the "Bush Doctrine" segment looks more damaging in clips. In the midst of an interview with an unfriendly (and at time condescending man), her colloquialisms and her accent help carry  her through this land mine. I side with those who see this as classic redirect. In the process, she uses the phrase "imminent strike" rather than "imminent threat." Is she backing off the Bush Doctrine? That is not something a grizzled Republican insider is going to step out on a limb to answer, so I do not anticipate an Alaskan political tyro to the national stage to go there. It was a careful response.

    Does Palin have "teh gravitas"? Hard to say in one interview. How much of her edginess, her defensiveness is warranted in her place (not just her nomination, but as a bright red target for the media)? How much is the viewers' (or, I should just say, my reaction) expectations accustomed to the mannerisms and the voice of men on matters of national security? I wince whenever Republicans mention "teh evil" in the world, and she dropped that word, I believe, twice in reference to the terruhrrist. Add one point for speaking to Americans fears in the terms that worked for Bush, so add an +1 out-of-touch elitist demerit to my judgment, and that is 8 out of 10.

    WNYC* caller said later broadcast editing was much (none / 0) (#42)
    by jawbone on Fri Sep 12, 2008 at 10:38:39 AM EST
    different from the editing used on the ABC evening news, and that Palin came off much better in the more expanded version he saw later. He said he was somewhat stunned at the difference the editing made in his opinion of her answers and of her.

    He felt those seeing the evening news version would probably have a much worse opinion of her than those seeing the other version. So, your take on the interview seems to fit with what this caller experienced.

    When people have time and access to the internet, they can form opinions based more on reality--but, I bet even those longer clips have been edited--and the edits will favor the MCM interviewer and the MCM take on things.

    That's why some pols won't go on shows which are taped and edited to be shown later. They've been burned once too often.

    The power to shape what people see is an immense one. We need more and better journalists and much less journamalism.

    *WNYC--NYCity public radio station (listener/foundation owned); wnyc.org has podcasts.