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Labor Day Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 12:53:57 PM EST
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I hope some of you take some time to celebrate the holiday. The summer sure went by fast.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome, with the caveat I stated below. Please read it before commenting.

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    Labor Day Open Thread | 173 comments (173 topical)

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    The lefts reaction to Palin... (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by cosbo on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:05:44 PM EST
    is starting to be COMPLETELY embarrassing.

    Watch P. Diddy make a complete ass of himself here...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thmueS0ngAs

    What the hell is happening! OMG

    Wow, Obama's People (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:08:59 PM EST
    better get that video off the Net as quickly as possible
    if they know what's good for him.
    That's all I'm going to say.

    Parent
    Exactly how many people is Obama responsible (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by steviez314 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:13:43 PM EST
    for?  Is P. Diddy an Obama spokesman now?  

    I think the Obama people have a campaign to run, not an internet to monitor.

    Parent

    Obama's brilliant use of the internets (5.00 / 7) (#12)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:19:40 PM EST
    was claimed to be a big part of the reason for his success, reaching out to youth and all.

    So it won't wash to now say that it's just too much harrrd worrrrk for the Obama camp to not even watch what's on the internet.  

    Same reasoning applies re dealing with Diddy.  Obama spoke out about another rapper, but two is just too many for him to do?

    Parent

    I hate to say it, but . . . (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by nycstray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:30:29 PM EST
    Obama needs to issue a firmly written statement or 2 about all the BS and try and reign it in. He should implore anyone who supports him to stick to the issues of Dems vs Repubs and make the campaign about that. He should direct what he wants his campaign and "The Movement" to be about. His whole "ground game" could end up in the mud if this isn't stopped.

    Parent
    Actually, Obama needs to do whatever (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:36:48 PM EST
    Obama thinks is right. We can get a much better vision of what kind of leader he is if he is allowed to do what comes naturally to him.

    If he continues following the lead of his handlers and advisers, we also get a chance to evaluate how he would govern.

    It's a fact, not a criticism.


    Parent

    Obama needs to take (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:55:06 PM EST
    action.  That video is threatening in my opinion. "Colors, blacks, youths" we are taking over?

    Threatening a presidential candidate and the electorate?

    It will backfire big time.

    I used to like Sean Combs. Appreciated his Get Out The Vote work and his passion.  This is just immature, reactive, attention seeking trash.

    Parent

    what caught my attention (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by ccpup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:40:23 PM EST
    was the singer Chris Brown being photographed a day or so ago jogging in an "Obama or Die" t-shirt.

    "Obama or Die"?  Seems to me to be a very odd message to send to ... well, to anyone, actually!

    Whatever happened to "Vote Obama"?  Or "Obama '08"?

    I feel so old now.

    :-)

    Parent

    Yeah.... (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    I prefer "live free or die" myself.

    I've never known of a politician worth dying for...that's crazy talk.

    Parent

    That's Disgusting (none / 0) (#74)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:51:38 PM EST
    And quite possibly just as disgusting as having
    Obama's face on men's underwear.

    I'm not sure who'd be more offended: Obama, for seeing his face printed next to a man's bits or ... hmm, nevermind, I guess he'll be the only one offended. LOL.

    Parent

    Thanks, Jim (none / 0) (#220)
    by suki on Tue Sep 02, 2008 at 12:28:37 PM EST
    I'll now have to try and scrub that visual from my brain.
    And try to stop hysterical laughter and the da#m hiccups.

    Parent
    But even if he does... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by dutchfox on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:46:37 PM EST
    I think the whole point is that whatever damage to his campaign is done (and no, he can't control the internet stuff), it's happened and requires more energy away from the main foci of his campaign. And I think these kinds of things
    create confusion among voters who may not be as media savvy as TL readers, and that confusion changes their opinions about Obama (or McCain, or whatever dissin' untruths are made about any candidate).

    I also blame the MSM for creating stories that sell their news as entertainment, with scant amount of coverage about substantive issues.

    Parent

    Obama's campaign (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Josey on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:27:02 PM EST
    seems to be "anything goes." And I mean anything. Whatever it takes for Obama to win.
    Obama never denounced the ridiculous racist and sexist remarks about Hillary circulated by his campaign - as reported by the media.
    Remember when his surrogates and supporters were claiming Hillary's RFK remark was based on her wish that Obama would be assassinated so that SHE could be the nominee??  It would have been refreshing if Obama had stood up to his "reality-based" supporters and interjected some reality and common sense into the hysteria.
    But apparently he assumed he'd get all the Hillary supporters anyway, so no reason to step up and LEAD.
    Obama knows what his campaign is manufacturing and accomplishing - with the media's assistance.
    And so, his followers follow his lead - anything goes.

    Parent
    Sean "Diddy" Combs (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:24:02 PM EST
    isn't a nobody in this country with a digital video camera and few minutes to spare that puts up daily blog videos on YouTube.

    Sad to say, Diddy's a known figure who's commanded that he be a representative for young voters (one of Obama's main supporter blocks) and AAs (another supporter block). He has gone out and campaigned for Obama, incl. on national TV.

    There are at least 4 groups of people that Diddy insulted in that video, and they are going to see him -- a well-known personality -- as a representation of Obama and his campaign. They are not going to care if he was doing it as an official of the campaign or not.

    Parent

    Oh, And Might I Add (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:29:16 PM EST
    Diddy's potty-mouth ... all that gratuitous cussing* in that video ...  will not sit well with many voters ... especially the core groups (I'm not going to name them due to a risk of stereotyping or generalizing) that Obama needs to win over.

    *I'm no angel and but even I found that much cussing to be unacceptable.

    Parent

    If P. Diddy of all people... (4.40 / 5) (#73)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:50:25 PM EST
    is influencing how you vote, you've got issues...to say the least.

    Parent
    Oh, Please... (none / 0) (#90)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:03:05 PM EST
    I made up my mind about Obama AND McCain a long time ago.

    But thanks so much for your concern. I do agree with your comment though, and do not think endorsements (political or celebrity) should dictate how someone votes.

    Though I can see how they might cause some to change their minds.

    Parent

    It may cause.... (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:10:22 PM EST
    the weak-minded to change their minds, but I don't think celebrity endorsements sway those of us with half a functioning brain one way or the other.  Or at least I hope so:)

    BTW...I didn't mean to imply you personally, just talkin' generalities.  

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:25:41 PM EST
    here is that Obama has a "movement" and as such is defined moreso by the people who support it than a regular campaign. Every campaign has nuts that support it. A movement tends to reflect on the leader of said movement. That's why I'm not a big advocate of personality movements and more inclined toward issue movements.

    Parent
    I say each candidate should issue a blanket (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by steviez314 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:29:56 PM EST
    "Reject and Denounce" of any comments made by anyone they know or don't know, even if they didn't hear of the comments beforehand, if the comments offend anyone.

    That will save eveyone a bunch of reject and denounce time and we can get back to issues.

    Parent

    I'd imagine to you and I.... (none / 0) (#172)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:07:02 PM EST
    such a statement goes without saying.

    To those who require such a statement to be uttered, it probably wouldn't do any good.

    Parent

    Part of his campaign (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by standingup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:55:37 PM EST
    includes videos like P. Diddy's that can be successfully used by the GOP to scare off voters in swing states like Missouri.  I can see this becoming viral via GOP emails.  Not a good decision by Diddy and one that Obama may not have asked to have out there but his enemies will make certain he owns it.

    Parent
    The left wing crowd is playing perfectly (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:12:35 PM EST
    to the tune the McCain campaign wants them to play. This is like watching a bad movie where you keep screaming "don't do that, that is the stupidest thing you could do." But we all know what the protagonist does anyway!

    Parent
    Almost daily ... (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:15:13 PM EST
    I expect someone to finally admit this campaign has just been a satiric hoax.

    And that the actual presidential campaign starts tomorrow.

    Parent

    You are right, Congressman PDiddy (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:15:51 PM EST
    is making a huge mistake.  I am starting to think that most people with keyboards should have their hands cut off.  I am sure this ruins Obama's plans to make P Diddy Surgeon General.

    Parent
    Well I was referring to pretty much the entire (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:21:51 PM EST
    Left blogosphere, and their clever "gotchas." But ok, you got me on P Diddy. Because we all know celebrities and the theme of celebrity is not at all important in this election.

    Parent
    exactly, Marvin (none / 0) (#23)
    by kempis on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:27:28 PM EST
    At this point, I'm just going to give up and watch my DVD rental of Prime Suspect, season one.

    I've labored for three solid days on lesson plans, so it's time to kick back and fuggedabout work and the election for a bit.

    Y'all have a good one. Drive carefully--on the highways and online.

    Parent

    Ahh... Prime Suspect (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by shoephone on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:28:44 PM EST
    The best series ever. Helen Mirren rocks. Enjoy it.

    Parent
    Spinning! Spinning! (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by EL seattle on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:16:25 PM EST
    "Go forwards, not backwards, upwards not forwards! and ever spinning spinning to freedom"

    Keep spinning, Diddy.

    Kodos for President 2008!

    Parent

    I want Kang, not Kodos! (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by scribe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:55:18 PM EST
    The "up"-side of one of them being elected is Bushie will get his space-missile zapping laser built, finally.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:31:24 PM EST
    P Diddy is playing into McCain's hands. Obama's supporters are his absolute worst advocates.

    Parent
    Diddy........ (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by vml68 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    What an articulate man. He definitely convinced me!..... :-)

    Parent
    With respect, cosbo ... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:27:28 PM EST
    I wouldn't call P. Diddy a member of "the left."

    Parent
    No? (none / 0) (#32)
    by cosbo on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:30:24 PM EST
    then what's his label?

    Parent
    Too many punchlines, Cosbo. (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:43:13 PM EST
    Too many punchlines spring to mind.  I'll let everyone write their own.

    But the serious answer would be:  He's an entertainer.

    Parent

    He has several... (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:46:28 PM EST
    record mogul, producer, crappy MC.

    He's got the right to his opinion, same as anyone else...his microphone is just bigger than most.  

    It's silly to hold what Diddy says against Obama, or what I say against Ralph Nader, or what you say against your preferred candidate...no?

    Parent

    Obama/Axelrod (none / 0) (#94)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06:44 PM EST
    didn't share such lofty notions when it was Geraldine Ferraro giving her opinion

    Parent
    The Clinton and McCain teams didn't..... (5.00 / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:28:00 PM EST
    when Rev. Wright was giving his.

    Its politics...they all splash around in the gutter playing gotcha while Rome burns.  They'll talk about anything except why we have a prison population to rival totalitarian nations, why people are in cages over plants, and why it is good that the machinery is being dismantled and shipped to China and the thirld world.

    Parent

    Watching this made me nauseous (none / 0) (#70)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:49:29 PM EST
    because of the moving camera. But the message wasn't helping either, so I clicked it off. Democrats are channeling Karl Rove and Co and it's making me despair.

    Parent
    The question now should (none / 0) (#162)
    by zfran on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:57:29 PM EST
    be would Diddy have made that same video had Sen. Clinton been the dem nominee? Perhaps someone should ask him.  

    Parent
    Thatcher (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Manuel on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:13:11 PM EST
    One of the interesting questions raised by the controversy over Palin is whether equality for women can progress independently of liberal women issues.  I wonder how those who feel most insulted by Palin's selection feel about the significance of Thatcher for feminism.  Here is an interesting take on the subject.

    This is what I don't get (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by nycstray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:22:03 PM EST
    SP has accomplished a lot on her own. I may not agree with her views on issues, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to compete and succeed in life equally. Why can't she be a role model in some respects for all women, and in other respects, for women that share her views? She seems to be a very competent woman.

    Parent
    bless you (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by ccpup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:43:02 PM EST
    for bringing up Thatcher.

    Gives me the perfect opportunity to share my favorite quote of hers:

    "In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man; if you want anything done, ask a woman." -- Margaret Thatcher

    Parent

    She has been diagnosed (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:18:15 PM EST
    with dementia.
    Thatcher's condition has deteriorated so much she forgets that her husband, Denis Thatcher, died in 2003,
    She is 82.

    Parent
    Very interesting (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Valhalla on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:17:15 PM EST
    I'd be interested to hear what Cream and our other historians think of it.

    My first thought was that the author is setting up Thatcher vs feminists dichotomy as more of a zero sum game than it really is.

    My second thought is this idea that academic feminists and feminists like Andrea Dworkin having lost, having been beaten by Thatcher feminists is far too narrow an analysis, to prove a point that I'm not sure is true.

    Academics and thinkers on the extreme of any political spectrum almost never 'win', but they are valuable in moving the discussion toward one end of the spectrum or the other.  It certainly wasn't Thatcher or Thatcher-like feminists who fought for and won anti-sexual-harrasments laws, anti-stalking laws, better parental leave policies, etc. etc.  Virtually every pro-equality idea, law, or cause we take for granted today was born out of a small group of people who were considered 'extremist' when they started.

    Parent

    I don't see it as either/or (none / 0) (#199)
    by Manuel on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:47:10 PM EST
    The central idea of the article is that Thatcher represented some fundamental change.  As Gordon Brown said recently she was a principled politician.  Without agreeing with her principles at all (and it is clear the author doesn't) one can recognize that she helped eliminate the idea of women as incapable of participating in the political arena.

    The main take away for Democrats from Palin and Thatcher is that the economic issues are as important as the hot button issues.  Democrats need to demonstrate why their economic policies will be better for working class women.  Getting sidetracked into Palin's qualifications, scandals, or experience does not help advance the argument.  It is her ideas that must be fought not the fact that she is a woman.

    Parent

    An interesting topic, (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:07:34 PM EST
    and one that has come up frequently in recent days in my conversations with other women (whom, despite the assertions on this blog, appear to be split about whether voting for Palin is a feminist thing to do or not). It is not black and white.

    Are Palin's policies on abortion and equal pay anti-feminist? Of course.

    Does the fact that the democratic party appears to be unable to stop itself from sexist smearing of female candidates, buying and selling nutcracker imitations of Hillary, using pornographic imagery and language to demean powerful women in politics on their blogs, and so much else also indicate anti-feminism? Of course. I personally don't think the left is less sexist than the right in many ways that really count. Are women supposed to only be happy about policies, and not notice what happens to women running for president?

    There are different ways of being sexist and different ways of being feminist. It would be great if we got it all 100% perfect but we won't.

    Although I won't vote for Palin, I do think that her election to the vice presidency would be a step forward for feminism IN ONE RESPECT. And, from my conversations with lots of women over the last few days, there's a lot of that thinking out there.

    Parent

    Furthermore (none / 0) (#107)
    by Monda on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:13:51 PM EST
    It is also interesting to point out that in Europe, powerful women politicians are women of the right.  Merkel, for example (Forbes most influential, powerful woman in the world.  Hillary was in the twenties, if I'm not mistaken, but above Oprah lol.)  Dora Bakoyanis of Greece etc etc etc.

    Thatcher, whether you agree with her policies or not, is a role model.    

    Parent

    James Dobson thinks so (none / 0) (#192)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:33:16 PM EST
    Thatcher was a conservative. The radical right, including James Dobson, likes both.

    Minnery added that his boss, Dobson, has yearned for a conservative female leader like Margaret Thatcher to emerge on the American scene. And while Palin is no Thatcher, "she has not rejected the feminine side of who she is, so for that reason, she will be attractive to conservative voters."


    Parent
    The right doesn't get it. (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Manuel on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:25:11 PM EST
    Equality isn't about rejecting part of who you are.  It is about having equal opportunity no mater who you are.

    We don't want to underedtimate the Palins and Jindals on the right.  Condescending attacks based on who they are undermine our arguments and our ideals.  It is their ideas we need to fight.

    Parent

    Bringing up Thatcher (none / 0) (#180)
    by lilburro on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:13:49 PM EST
    is very smart.  Here is one among the fine things that passed into law while Thatcher was Prime Minister:

    Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988 was a controversial amendment to the United Kingdom's Local Government Act 1986, enacted on 24 May 1988 and repealed on 21 June 2000 in Scotland, and on 18 November 2003 in the rest of the UK by section(122) of the Local Government Act 2003[1]. The amendment stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship".[2]

    I would be far too distracted by the horror of a President Palin's policies to admire her presidency.  It wouldn't be worth the legislated hate.

    Parent

    Hmm (none / 0) (#191)
    by lilburro on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:29:54 PM EST
    "Bringing Up Thatcher" sounds like a pretty entertaining sitcom though.  "How we raised a most hateful girl/in conservative ways/to rule the world/In 10 Downing/With Ronnie clowning/How we raised a girl/Who grew up to hate the world!"  Or something.

    Parent
    To daring grace (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:14:09 PM EST
    and to quote Jeralyn, please read my comments before posting about them.  The thread closes before I can come back to ask you to, well, please read my comments before posting about them.

    Better yet, don't reply to my comments, since you don't read them.  You write that I didn't say what I did say or that I did say what I didn't say.  That sort of trickery used to not be the norm here.

    That sort of trickery only started (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by scribe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    when the (wannabe) Rethuglicans showed up earlier this spring to take over threads with their back-and-forth pot-stirring, trying then to keep the (illusory) HRC-Obama rift open.

    Used to be, a thread was fortunate to get 20 or 30 comments (except when it was about the Duke Lacrosse case - that got so out-of-hand parsing who said/did what to whom that TL set up a separate site devoted to that case alone), much as the crime and injustice posts get now.

    The gift of traffic ... brings with it all sorts of riff-raff.

    You can expect the silliness to subside after the election.

    Parent

    I only found this website (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Grace on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:50:02 PM EST
    by accident, looking for a place where there were some Hillary supporters before the primaries ended.  It was a blessing to find it.  

    I may have posted here before when the Plame thing was going on but I'm not sure.  I had about 10 liberal blogs bookmarked back then (that were covering Plame) but I got a new computer and lost all those bookmarks.  

    Parent

    Note (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:10:26 PM EST
    The HRC-Obama rift was in no way illusory, here or anywhere else.


    Parent
    And for the record (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:11:47 PM EST
    I don't believe Daring Grace is a "rethuglican," real or wannabe.


    Parent
    If I've Misinterpreted Your Comment (none / 0) (#169)
    by daring grace on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:04:11 PM EST
    on the other thread, then I apologize.

    I'm glad you called me out about it here, because I noticed your "1" rating and assumed that it might relate to the fact that the thread closed before you could reply.

    I've re-read the exchange and I see where my lines got crossed in understanding your point.

    I was saying Governor Palin mentioned Clinton and Ferraro as a cynical ploy to woo disaffected Clinton supporters. You (I guess?) were saying she was doing exactly what Clinton did in citing Margaret Chase Smith--acknowledging another women who broke ground for those who follow her.

    I was looking at the closeness in political position of Clinton and Chase Smith and the distance in Clinton and Palin and I wasn't seeing the occasion of Palin mentioning Clinton as something similar.

    Am I actually getting it now?

    Parent

    The candidates' stands on sex education: (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by steviez314 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:19:20 PM EST
    Barack Obama, US Senator (D-IL), stated in an Apr. 20, 2008 article titled "Encore: Democratic Candidates Compassion Forum" on CNN.com:

    "...[W]hat I have consistently talked about is to take a comprehensive approach where we focus on abstinence, where we are teaching the sacredness of sexuality to our children.
    But we also recognize the importance of good medical care for women, that we're also recognizing the importance of age-appropriate education to reduce risks. I do believe that contraception has to be part of that education process."
    Apr. 20, 2008 Barack Obama

    John McCain, US Senator (R-AZ), stated at in a Mar. 16, 2007 New York Times article titled "McCain Stumbles on H.I.V. Prevention":

    "Q: What about grants for sex education in the United States? Should they include instructions about using contraceptives? Or should it be Bush's policy, which is just abstinence?
    Mr. McCain: (Long pause) Ahhh. I think I support the president's policy."
    Mar. 16, 2007 John McCain



    labor day (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:20:17 PM EST
    How come I'm working on labor day. I've been robbed. This is just not fair. Wait, I think I feel a sour throat coming on... :-)

    Everyone go out and enjoy yourselves. If you have to work like this poor sucker, then still get out of the office a bit.

    Seriously, test drive a tractor. It's fun. :-)

    I'd love to test drive a tractor! (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by nycstray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:24:35 PM EST
    I should be working, but I'm going to retire to the kitchen and do some canning while watching baseball :) Too much allergens outside for my poor eyes to even consider a day in the park with the dog :(

    Parent
    There are fresh peaches in the fridge (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by scribe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:46:15 PM EST
    but they'll be in a pie before dinnertime....

    Took the dog for a long walk in the country yesterday, and she's sleeping it off still.

    Parent

    I canned some peaches, nectarines (none / 0) (#130)
    by nycstray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:28:07 PM EST
    and blueberries simmered in wine and vanilla sugar last night. I'll be getting more this week, so maybe I should go the pie route also :)

    Parent
    You have my sympathy. Just (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:38:29 PM EST
    this morning I was remembering the very first time I got paid on a national holiday.  There I was, sitting on the beach with a gin and tonic and exclaiming, I'm getting pd. for this!

    Parent
    What part of (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:28:38 PM EST
    This site will not host personal attacks against Sarah Palin, rumors of a personal nature or a discussion of her personal life or that of her children. All such comments will be deleted and repeat offenders banned.

    did you not understand?

    that commenter has been (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:56:28 PM EST
    vaporized.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#88)
    by themomcat on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:59:11 PM EST
    We were getting tired or repeating ourselves. ;-)


    Parent
    wow! (none / 0) (#106)
    by cpinva on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:12:28 PM EST
    vaporized.

    i had no idea you could do that, just from a blog site! lol

    Parent

    Don't mess with Jeralyn ... (none / 0) (#125)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:26:39 PM EST
    she's got special powers!

    I think she's going to be on HEROES this season.

    ;)

    Parent

    I wish I lived in a swing state (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Valhalla on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:28:48 PM EST
    So Clinton would visit here and I might get a chance to see her.  Totally independent of any other politics going on now.

    I Hear Ya! (none / 0) (#39)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:31:53 PM EST
    I wish I was back in my home-state, as it is now seeing so much political activity since being crowned a new swing state.


    Parent
    Just think of all the endless (none / 0) (#51)
    by nycstray on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39:22 PM EST
    commercials! lol!~

    Parent
    Aah, There Goes That Wish (none / 0) (#61)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:44:03 PM EST
    Heh, I forgot the ads for a second. But, come to think of it, DC isn't exactly sheltered from the ads, but I can imagine that it'll be 2-3 times the assault in a swing state.

    I haven't seen one all yesterday and today, so maybe the campaigns are keeping to their pledge of stopping all advertising during this horrible time down in the Gulf.

    Parent

    I live in NC (none / 0) (#86)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:58:10 PM EST
    and am praying that Hillary comes here often to campaign for Kay Hagan for Senate. The party must believe Hagan has a good chance to oust Dole because it is running ads hammering Dole for living in DC, not here and for being so ineffective. They wouldn't spend the money if they didn't think the odds look good for Hagan.

    I think Hillary could really help put Hagan over the top which would be really gratifying to all of us women who worked for Hillary here in NC and would help move the Dems closer towards a veto-proof majority.

    Parent

    Come visit me! (none / 0) (#161)
    by Fabian on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:55:36 PM EST
    Well, not me.  Obama was just in Dublin, OH.  Wealthy suburb a few miles from here.

    Hillary will not end up in the wealthy suburbs.  She will end up in small town, rural Ohio.  Oh, puh-lease let them send her to the Paw Paw Festival sponsored by OU's Office of Sustainability.

    (Actually scratch that.  I'll be in NE OH that weekend.  No can do.  mooooooan.)

    Parent

    Please recall, when you write (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by scribe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:42:36 PM EST
    I just find it absurd that Jeralyn would declare it off limits to talk about the very real consequences of Sarah Palin's political views manifesting themselves in her private life to be absurd.

    That this is TL's site, and she gets to set the rules.  If you don't like them, you can leave.

    Since that story's all over the news blogs, we are all therefore aware of it and can appreciate the irony, with our mouths shut.

    She sold the plane on Ebay? (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by BernieO on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:50:10 PM EST
    Wow.

    Palin's a pistol (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:08:59 PM EST
    whatever one thinks of her politics.  She seems not to be afraid of much.

    Parent
    I have added Barack Obama's statement (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:17:30 PM EST
    agreeing Palin family issues are unworthy of discussion to my post warning commenters not to discuss it here.

    No discussion of it please as it leads to comments of what isn't to be discussed.

    Every other blog and news source in the country is writing about it, feel free to comment on their sites.

    This thread is for other topics.

    Apologies, Jeralyn (none / 0) (#178)
    by Upstart Crow on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:12:06 PM EST
    for post above. I appreciate your point about his statement. Did like it though!

    Parent
    ok, i've looked at all the threads here, (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by cpinva on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:21:01 PM EST
    for the past couple of days. am i the only one who's seen the news, about the pre-emptive police strikes, against those planning to protest at the RNC, in minneapolis?

    with no warrants, they broke into rented and owned houses, "detained" people, with no charges filed, didn't allow them to contact attorneys (some of the detained are attorneys), and have consistently refused to make any public comment, regarding the legal basis for their actions.

    this, being a defense attorney blog, i would have expected some comments about this situation, or did i just miss it entirely?

    This blog is currently obsessed (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:24:27 PM EST
    with Sen. McCain's choice of Gov. Palin.  Stay tuned.

    Parent
    T Chris (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:27:35 PM EST
    blogged on it the other day. He did a good job. Check for the blog posting. But, yeah, it didn't get nearly the response that the Palin stuff does.

    Parent
    Maybe.... (none / 0) (#134)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:29:52 PM EST
    we're getting used to such things.

    Scary thought.

    Parent

    Similar incidents happened (none / 0) (#152)
    by themomcat on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:43:02 PM EST
    at the Democratic Convention, too. ABC reporter and his crew were arrested and their video equipment confiscated because they were filming people coming from a private breakfast for high end contributers. The video was to be used by Charles Gibson for a piece about Obama's campaign contributions.
     These actions are not isolated. They are becoming the "norm". Look what happened in NYC during the Republican Convention in 2004. NYC just had to settle with some of those arrested for a chunk of tax payers change.
    http://www.saveourcivilliberties.org/en/2005/04/1026.shtml
    $230k + lawyers fees may not be a fortune but it is another example of our government misuse of authority and the rest of us having to pay for it.
    In NYC, there are now police cameras everywhere. Most people think this is OK reasoning that if you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have to worry. Really?
    In the wake of 9/11, I think we have allowed government to step on our Constitutional rights. We need to reign in authority. This is a topic I want to hear discussed by both our Presidential candidates.


    Parent
    TC hris has been covering it (none / 0) (#202)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:00:16 PM EST
    I'm not following Minneapolis.

    Parent
    Looks like all those people telling me (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:24:39 PM EST
    Palin and Senator Stevens were mortal foes were.. uh ... wrong

    As with the bridge to nowhere she was fer Stevens before she was agin him.

    Palin's name is listed on 2003 incorporation papers of the "Ted Stevens Excellence in Public Service, Inc.," a 527 group that could raise unlimited funds from corporate donors.

    Palin, an anti-corruption crusader in Alaska, had called on Stevens to be open about the issues behind the investigation. But she also held a joint news conference with him in July, before he was indicted, to make clear she had not abandoned him politically.

    Stevens had been helpful to Palin during her run for governor, swooping in with a last moment endorsement. And the two filmed a campaign commercial together to highlight Stevens's endorsement of Palin during the 2006 race.

    .

    Rezko-esque. (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:27:51 PM EST


    Parent
    Whenever BTD says a pol is a pol .. (5.00 / 3) (#150)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:40:09 PM EST
    I always want to respond with this from Groucho:

    Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... now you tell me what you know.
    Smart guy that Groucho.... (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:51:58 PM EST
    didn't he also say he would never join an organization that would have him as a member?

    Real smart guy...

    Parent

    Yes ... (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:13:53 PM EST
    he also said:

    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies."


    Parent
    I am not thrilled with FISA (5.00 / 0) (#155)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:47:33 PM EST
    But this anti corruption thing just smelled funny to me from the get go.

    As Big Daddy would say

    What's that smell in this room? Didn't you notice it Brick? Didn't you notice a powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity in this room?...There ain't nothin' more powerful than the odor of mendacity....

    I think this a much more promising venue with which to use Palin against McCain.


    I view as similar to claiming (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:50:43 PM EST
    I don't have any federally-registered lobbyists on my campaign staff and don't accept any money raised or contributed by them.

    Parent
    I refer you to FDR on Somoza (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:59:31 PM EST
    Which you can read here.

    For the record, I didn't think much of the registered lobbyist affair either. I did not and would not have criticized HRC.

    But someone near and dear was wishing we could discuss tmerits of the McCain campaign...

    Parent

    I absolutely agree with you and (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:09:47 PM EST
    am quite certain (and have proposed, in fact) you write one post as to the reasons to support Obama and another as to the reasons not to support McCain.  

    Parent
    Labor Day (5.00 / 0) (#184)
    by frenly on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:15:50 PM EST
    I used to think Labor Day meant a day set aside to do labor, since my mom would make us do all sorts of yard work and housecleaning on that day.

    More appropiate day for me. (none / 0) (#194)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:39:49 PM EST
    Labor Day. The day I was born. Yeah, each year it moves around to different days but I always get the mileage out of it. This year, Wed. I am off to a BBQ at my neighbors now. I love 3 day weekends. I made the Cole-Slaw. Am famous for it which is funny. I don't really cook otherwise. Ha. Two absolutely beautiful days of weather in the Northeast. I always think of 911 on days like this because I remember when I got up on that day I was like, Wow, such a beautiful day today. Then the horror happened.

    Parent
    Oh for God's Sake (3.00 / 2) (#154)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:46:25 PM EST
    Nothing I wrote or write on this site or on my own modest little blog, about Palin, is personal. Ideologically she is an intimate of Santorum's.  But go ahead, defend her because she's a woman.

    I've deleted the insults to Glanton (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:21:22 PM EST
    his comment was not out of line or a sexist attack because it used the word "red meat."

    Glanton and KDog are valued members of the TalkLeft community and have been here for years. They will be here when this election is over.

    This is not a feminist blog, it's a blog devoted to promoting constitutional rights and civil liberties -- And promoting candidates that will further those goals.

    We are respectful of women's rights and issues here and I run a pretty tight ship against personal attacks, but I won't have readers insulted because they use a term some readers find objectionable.

    Parent

    Thank you Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:26:39 PM EST


    Parent
    kdog (2.66 / 3) (#108)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:17:09 PM EST
    Long time, indeed.  And it will please you to know that I still refuse to stay alert, and I still refuse to stay with FOX.  ;-)  

    The times were good enough that I figured I'd use this Open Thread, and come back to pay my respects to what used to be fairly decent discussion. The posts and links here remain for the most part solid, but go to the comments and it drops off the cliff almost instantly.  Infected, thy name is TalkLeft.   Consider.  Who would have ever thought that TalkLeft would have become a haven of sympathy and spin for Rick Santorum, minus the chromosome?

    Hmmm.  BTW I'm surprised you're still here at all.  I'd wager your premium on Liberty above all else gets scant respect, or even acknowledgment.  I said it at the beginning of the primary and it remains true: all identity politics, all the time.

    What has happened with the commenting aspect of TL is pretty sad, though I suppose from a traffic perspective it's a good thing.  

    There are still.... (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:39:46 PM EST
    enough knuckleheads around to make me think and question...and the election will be over soon enough.

    Besides...where else is there to go?  The few other blogs I've checked out still pale in comparison.  

    Liberty gets little love, but what else is new?  Fighting the good fight in an inconsequential way that won't get me locked up...and it helps keep me semi-sane:)  

    Parent

    Kudos and Condolences (1.25 / 4) (#66)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:47:11 PM EST
    Kudos to Jeralyn for supporting Hillary Clinton so honorably during the primary; as a fellow Hillary supporter and longtime commenter on TL, I took your example seriously.

    Condolences to what has become of the TL commenter's box, however.  The sheer deluge of people so upset by the way the primary went down, they are more than willing to cut off their nose despite their face.

    I see people here talking about how "embarrassing" the response to Palin is, among progressives.  No.  Truly embarrassing are the people who are looking for ways to spin Palin, a red meat extremist ideologue, as providing "PUMAS" an incentive to vote McCain.
    She is every bit as much to be reviled as Rick Santorum would have been, had McCain picked her.

    No, sorry (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:18:18 PM EST
    it is you who are spinning Palin as something she is not.  I wouldn't vote for her, but she's light years away from Rick Santorum.

    I find it fascinating that people like you feel such a compelling need to grossly exaggerrate and distort this woman's record.

    Parent

    Light Years Away (2.33 / 3) (#138)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:33:30 PM EST
    Thank you for exemplifying the nature of the comements over the last several months.

    BTW, I don't know if you supported Hillary Clinton or not, but either way, hopefully at least a few of the disgruntled here, understand that she and Sarah Palin are ideological opposites.  McCain and Palin are rubbing people's identity politics in their faces: how they must enjoy invoking Hillay Clinton's name in their ads and speeches.  

    Note to the obtuse: It is called "rubbing it in."  

    But back to your primary claim.  Because yes, being so extreme on the Abortion issue as to wish to criminalize it even in the case of Rape is light years away from Santorum, indeed.

    And, relatedly, defunding any sex education in here state beyond abstience advocacy, that was light years away from Santorum.

    And, arguing that creationism is just as credible as  evolution in the scientific community is light years away. "Why not teach them side by side?"

    And, sticking with Bush's bellicose foreign policy and his concrete jungle economic agenda today, in 2008, even as many moderate Republicans have turned away from such things, is light years away from Rick Santorum.  And, her health care policy of, "nothing to see here, keep moving along" is light years away from Rick Santorum.

    The list goes on and if you would try a little intellectual honesty and look at where this politician stands on issues, then you would come back in fifteen minutes to add to the list.

    One caveat.  Apparently Palin doesn't equate homosexual sex withg bestiality, and isn't eager to throw homosexuals in jail.  So that seperates her from Santorum.  Bully for her.

    Parent

    Yes, Palin's view is (none / 0) (#193)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:39:24 PM EST
    light years away from teaching creationism only.

    "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."


    Parent
    I didn't say "teaching creationism only" (5.00 / 0) (#198)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST
    But then, neither has Santorum.

    They have both, however, innocently asked the following question:

    Why not teach both theories side by side?

    And both of them would undoubtedly consider the science teacher bringing creationism up, an instance of "it coming up in class."

    Finally, when Santorum and Palin say "it doesn't have to be a part of the curriculum," it just makes me so grateful for their generosity.

    But in truth, beneath the shilling that you are engaged in, remains this: When it comes to Contempt for Science and Public Education, Santorum and Palin are ideologicaly peas in a pod.

    Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    :-O

    Parent

    There are people who believe (none / 0) (#205)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:14:36 PM EST
    in creationism, whether you approve of it or not.

    To allow debate about creationism doesn't mean that a kid will suddenly become a "creationist" anymore than debating any issue will somehow transform a kid from believing A to believing B.

    I'm not engaging in "shilling" but this past year has taught me that many so-called progressives are anything but progressive when its their belief system that is being challenged.

    Parent

    We're talking About Science Curricula, (none / 0) (#209)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:30:48 PM EST
    I am not denigrating anyone's beliefs, nor would I.  And, you don't know a friggin' thing about my belief system, nor, I suspect, do you know a scintilla about those from whom you have "learned" in this past year.

    But we are talking about Science Curricula.
    It would be different if we were talking about a humanities class like History, English, Philosophy, Religion, &c.  Setting up Science or Math Classes, for that matter, as forums for "debate," where what you believe is given as much weight as Discourses in the Sicentific Community, is a very different proposition altogether.  Anti-intellectualism, who are those scientists to teach us what is going on in Science?

    All of which is beside the point, of course.    By defending Palin and Santorum's position on this issue, are we to take it that you're retracting your ridiculous claim that they are "light years apart" on the issue?

    And of course, you are indeed shillinh.  And of course, you know it.  

    Parent

    This is such a stupid argument. (none / 0) (#213)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:13:24 PM EST
    Of course creationism should be discussed in schools. As per Riverdaughter (goldberry here - who IS a scientist):

    Creationism is one of many theories about the origin of life.  Yep.  Betcha you guys forgot about spontaneous generation and the garbage theory (sort of like scientology).  In fact, in my 10th grade biology class, all theories were presented.  It took about 2 days to go through spontaneous generation, the garbage theory and creationism ...  Once that was over, we spent the rest of the quarter talking about natural selection.  You may be surprised to know that some Christian colleges like Messiah College where Monica Goodling was an undergrad are very natural selection friendly.  They have to be if they are teaching biology in an accredited program.  That's the way life and biology work and they acknowledge it.  Students are presented with many theories and they are left to sort it out for themselves in an atmosphere that respects evidence based science.  That's the way it should be.  Besides, you can believe in natural selection and also that your creator caused it to be the way life originated.  Ain't nobody's business if you do.  And it keeps the crackpots out of the science class.

    I was taught spontaneous generation and the garbage theory too, as well as creationism. I grew up to become an atheist.  Really do not see what the problem is.

    Parent

    It's not a stupid argument (none / 0) (#214)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:47:08 PM EST
    First of all, to debate theology's place in science education.  And then of course, it's soooo easy, isn't it, to decide which creation stories to hold up as a "theory," and which ones to dismiss.  Blech.

    And besides, you probably didn't read the whole thread. If you did you'd know the point is, McCain's nominee is in the mold of Rick Santorum.  On a litany of issues.  Including this one. If you agree with McCain, Bush, Palin. and Santorum about Education, then that's crazy, but whaveter.  

    Just don't pretend the GOP ticket isn't extremist.

    Parent

    Theology's place in scientific education (none / 0) (#215)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:13:34 PM EST
    is to act as a contrast, a history, and a foil for scientific method. That's what it's always been and should continue to be.

    Why is that so hard for you to see?

    I read the whole thread. Don't you fooking dare patronize me.

    I am talking about how the notion of discussing creationism in the schools is not extremist whatsoever. Nor is it new. You are the one extrapolating from that that you know anything about what I do or do not agree with other than this.

    Which is just another stupid argument. But hey, don't let that stop you.

    Parent

    Hmmmmm (none / 0) (#216)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:21:54 PM EST
    If Hillary Clinton were at the top of the Dem ticket, a lot of the people who are now "nuancing" Palin's and Santorum's positions on these issues, would be doing something quite different, today.

    If you don't grasp that the people Obama and Biden are running against are dangerous as hell, on multiple levels, then you deserve to be patronized.  If you are willing to turn your head at what McCain wants to do on the global stage and at home, in order to prove your point, then you deserve to be patronized.

    Many dead people, many rights rolled back, much gutting of what's left of our safety nets, in the event of a McCain victory.  Put that in the bank. For it deserves to be patronized.  

    And one more thing.

    Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Parent

    You don't know that. (none / 0) (#218)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:47:51 PM EST
    You have utterly no basis to speculate on what would be happening if Hillary were the nominee - other than that the Democrats would probably not be in such a frenzy about the threat of a woman on the R ticket. Unless you're Madam Cleo, and even then.

    I'm not talking about the "dangerousness" (clutch those pearls!) of McCain and Palin. I'm talking about how science is taught and has been taught in public schools. As much as you would like to make this about something else, it isn't, as far as I am concerned. I am rebutting part of your argument. Don't try to hammer me with ignoring the rest just because you cannot refute the point I'm making.

    Do try to follow along (there's some patronization, because you insist on it), because that's what I am talking about. Attempting to make it into something else makes you look reading-comprehension-challenged, not me.

    And BTW, saying I deserve to be patronized? Does nothing to make your argument or convince me.

    Parent

    Seems that Hillary supporters (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:24:22 PM EST
    who have not (yet) declared that Obama is the ONE, can look forward to being met with insults such as cutting off their nose despite their face.

    or that they are

    these working class women, not college educated, who, the blue collar women who were voting for Hillary Clinton and may be more conservative on social causes.


    Parent
    Oh, Please..... (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:42:42 PM EST
    If you're at all interested, feel free to go back and look at comments I made during the Primary.  Then and now, neither candidate was progressive enough for me; and I supported Hillary Clinton because I felt, and still feel, that she's a bit more progressive than Obama.  
    But you look at what is left and if you are being honest, you say, GOP dangerousness is no theory.  It has been tested and proven.  

    You don't have to think of Obama as "the One" to see that. It kight feel good for you to write it, but remember that when you write it, you will almost always be addressing a straw man.   I sure as heck haven't thought of him as anything more or less than a politico who will be much, much less dangerous to the country than the alternative.

    Parent

    And a Democratic Congress (none / 0) (#196)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:43:47 PM EST
    will go along with a "less progressive than Hillary" Obama; whereas maybe - just maybe - a Democratic Congress will actually oppose McCain's wild-eye programs

    Parent
    That is just sad, ding (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by glanton on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:55:17 PM EST
    He is less progressive than Clinton, but stratospheres moreso than either McCain or Palin.

    Good luck with Demo Congress stopping him from starting more Wars, BTW.  And, Good Luck with the Same Congress, making him or Palin either one, place reasonable people on the Supreme Court.  

    Jeez.  You and those who are partaking of your Paltry Line deserve everything that will happen with McCain and Palin running the show.  But the rest of the people in this country do not.  

    Parent

    Will Sen. Obama be in Detroit (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:24:55 PM EST
    today?  

    Obama at LaborFest in Milwaukee (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:10:07 PM EST
    tonight, in the heart of the Rustbelt, for those interested.  The Marquette Tribune campus crew is planning on doing video of it and has a website.  There probably also will be video on WTMJ, WITI, WISN TVs, all with websites, and WTMJ video usually is linked from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel at jsonline.com.

    I got an offer for tickets but won't be going, as it came with a requirement for four hours of campaign work today -- a day when there is much to do, and I'm nervous enough about meeting more than 300 students within hours now!  And the speech may not be much of a stemwinder, since Obama promised to tone down campaign rhetoric during the disaster in NOLA.  

    But I think we can bet that it will speak to labor issues -- and I hope that his staff knows and notes that he will be speaking at our great Summerfest park near the site of the Bay View Massacre of 1886.  You labor historians who know about Haymarket Square may not know about what happened not far to the north the next day.  Here is Howard Zinn's quickie read and recap on it.

    Parent

    So now peole won't be able to see him speak (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by allimom99 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:43:49 PM EST
    without volunteering for the campaign. Tell me how this is supposed to bring in new voters? It's really pretty much the same as Bush prescreening his audiences, and I like it just as much. Way to go Ds.

    Parent
    Labor Day (none / 0) (#197)
    by Brookhaven on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:46:39 PM EST
    Thanks for the link about the Bay View Massacre.  I was familiar with the Haymarket Massacre but not the Bay View one.  

    John Peter Altgeld was that rare pol who had moral courage who sacrificed his office to do what was morally and ethically right.  How many in public office today would do what he did?  

    I liked what Zinn said about history and how it was almost exclusively told from the pov of the powerful and rarely of the individual without much power but who made a difference.  

    The history of the Labor Movement in this country is one that really needs to be more fully told.  But, what an incredibly potent and moving history it is.  

    And, all of the tragedies and sacrifices so many men and women made so that American men and women could belong to unions without fear of being fired and to earn a decent wage for their hard work.

    Here in New York, for those unaware, one of the most tragic events which spurred the growth of the
    ILGWU (the International Ladies Garment Workers Union)was the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire.

    This tragedy resonates with me not only on a  human level but as a woman, a union supporter and Dem. But, also because part of my family immigrated to the US in 1892 from Italy and could have been among (although lucky for us none were) the young women working at that factory alongside the immigrants from Germany and Eastern Europe.

    What also needs to be more fully documented for popular consumption is to tell the story of those well to do women (like Eleanor Roosevelt) in New York who walked the talk when it came to helping the working class.  One woman, in particular, Frances Perkins, witnessed the Triangle fire, gave money and picketed alongside the unions and was appointed by FDR to be his Secretary of Labor.  Perkins with other powerful citizens and pols "pushed for comprehensive safety and workers' compensation laws.  And, the ILGWU leadership formed bonds with those reformer like Perkins  and politicians like FDR that would continue for another forty years, through the New Deal and beyond".

    If HRC had been of Perkins and Roosevelt's generation, she would have been fighting right alongside them.   There is a continuity here of women activists and pols who did so much for the common good especially of working men and women.  And, that needs to be celebrated and
    remembered today.

    This is such a rich history.  It's almost tragic that it's not more fully known by all of us especially those under 40.  

    Parent

    Ah, what a warming comment (none / 0) (#204)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:06:31 PM EST
    to know that someone else knows of all this.  I bet you also are an admirer of Zinn's marvelous People's History of the United States.

    I teach in a department that long has had labor history as a central mission (thus the impact of so much attention to labor history in our community, thanks to longtimers among my colleagues).  And my students, like me, mainly come from working-class union families.  

    So I give a lot of attention to the tragic Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, to Frances Perkins -- the first woman ever in a presidential cabinet, btw, and she still holds the record for longevity, and the Dept of Labor building is named for her -- and others in ER's network.  

    Hope that helps make your day to know that out here in the heartland, hundreds of those under-40s are learning about this and more every semester.     And you helped to energize me for the first day of the semester tomorrow for those who will hear a lot and see PowerPoints of the fire site, of Perkins, and much more in coming weeks.:-)

    Btw, you no doubt know that the fire site now is a Columbia U classroom building -- and that it put up a terrific website about the tragedy.  

    Parent

    Yes, but he apparently didn't (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:30:48 PM EST
    give the traditional speech supporting labor unions.

    Detroit

    Parent

    I'd imagine that all the events... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by EL seattle on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:42:26 PM EST
    ...that are scheduled for today (almost anywhere in the US) have been toned down.  Sometimes sensibility happens on all sides, at least for a few hours.

    Parent
    From your link ... (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:18:40 PM EST
    one of the people who came to hear him speak said:

    "He focused more about what is going on today, which is good ... I guess."

    She was also surprised he only spoke for 11 minutes.

    I'll reiterate her comments.  He only spoke about the hurricane.  That's good ... I guess.

    Parent

    We can only hope and pray... (none / 0) (#136)
    by EL seattle on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:30:11 PM EST
    ... that the hurricane disaster will wind up being "manageable" enough that there's no reason for it to push politics our of the news cycle for more than one day.  (Discussion of rumours and scandal is a much better way to be spending time than being witness to ongoing major flooding.)

    And hopefully Hannah just dissipates before hitting land.

    Parent

    He focused more, not exclusively, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:14:24 PM EST
    per her comments. I saw a few minutes on c-span and he was talking about unions.

    Parent
    Did you not read JM's previous post? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:25:19 PM EST


    McCain "might" give his acceptance (none / 0) (#69)
    by scribe on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:49:20 PM EST
    via satellite from the Gulf Coast, instead of going to Mpls-St.Paul, at all.

    This was in an exclusive he gave to MSNBC, as reported on their crawl.

    Anyone want to comment on the upside and downside for the respective campaigns from that?

    Also, Bushie and Deadeye Dick are taking the opportunity to avoid further sullying the Rethug brand, by ducking out of the convention (they were supposed to be there tonight) entirely.

    this will be interesting indeed (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:55:16 PM EST
    to watch how this plays out. If there isn't too much damage, and things are handled well, I suspect the convention will go on, albeit toned down. If things aren't good, I wouldn't be surprised by such a drastic change in plans. I have no idea how it will play though.

    Parent
    I told (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:55:53 PM EST
    people (Obama supporters didn't want to believe it) that this could be a win/win for McCain. He looks like he "cares" and there's the mental comparison with this and the greek stage.

    McCain is using Bill Clinton's playbook more than Obama is unfortunately.

    Parent

    Or... (5.00 / 0) (#93)
    by CoralGables on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06:38 PM EST
    It could also be seen as McCain finally understanding that being photographed with George Bush and a birthday cake, while people drown, isn't the hurricane photo you want to be remembered by. Sadly for him, and try as he might, it will still be the one everyone remembers.

    Parent
    When (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:39:34 PM EST
    you can tell me what Dems were doing that day then you might have a case to make. Otherwise, I think it's probably not a good road to go down. What if Obama was sitting in DC? Is that any better? Do you see my point?

    I think it reflects very poorly on Bush no doubt about it.

    Parent

    The only time natural disasters (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Grace on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:08:45 PM EST
    are winning situations for politicians is when it happens in the politician's state and the politician jumps in and everything ends up being taken care of extremely well.  

    I think Jindahl is going to look good after this.  

    Arnold, in California, has handled disasters quite well here.  Guiliani handled 9/11 well.  Jeb Bush did pretty good with his hurricanes.  

    McCain is an outsider and has no power to lead anything in this situation.  

    Parent

    this is true (none / 0) (#104)
    by bjorn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:11:44 PM EST
    Jeb Bush was in part loved in FL because he was always on top of the hurricane situation.  He had it nailed every time.  I guess it helped that his brother was the President!

    Parent
    Yes, well, it also helped the (none / 0) (#206)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    president-elect that his brother was the Gov of Florida, as I recall.


    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#89)
    by standingup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:02:21 PM EST
    Perfect response would be, "Now that John McCain is running for president, he cares.  But where was he when Katrina hit the gulf coast?"  Flash to the picture of Bush and McCain celebrating McCain's birthday at the airport in California while people where drowning in New Orleans.    

    Parent
    Ai applaud him for that statement. (none / 0) (#92)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:05:31 PM EST
    It was perfect.

    Parent
    I mean "I" (none / 0) (#95)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:06:57 PM EST
    Ai's still angry at Sean Combs.

    Parent
    You're (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:36:42 PM EST
    kidding right? The person responsible for that disaster was Bush alone. What was anyone on the Dem side doing either? I think that is a bad road to go down. What was Obama doing when Katrina hit? Hillary? I know Bill went down after but did McCain see anything wrong with Bush's response? There lies your story.

    Parent
    Also proposed legislation (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by themomcat on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:05:16 PM EST
    that would have restored FEMA to a cabinet level position. Both proposals failed to get a 2/3's majority vote to even be considered. And even if they had passed, Bush would have either veto them of ignored with the brush of a "signing statement".


    Parent
    I know (none / 0) (#189)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:27:58 PM EST
    she was trying to do something. And I'm not putting any of them down for what they did. I'm just saying that trying to make McCain responsible because he had birthday cake with Bush is silly. They keep trying to make this personal is the problem. The fault with McCain is that he shared Bush's ideology NOT the fact that he ate some cake.

    Parent
    Jesse Jackson, Jr (none / 0) (#203)
    by Brookhaven on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:03:19 PM EST
    Never got that memo or conveniently forgot about it.  He needs to keep as low a profile in the next couple of months as is possible. He did a lot of harm to the Obama campaign.  I know I don't want to see or hear his voice ever again and that's not soon enough.  

    Jesse Jackson, Jr. you are no Jesse Jackson.

    Parent

    I can't see an upside (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by standingup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:58:42 PM EST
    but plenty of downsides.  I wouldn't open the door for any response that would include a "remember this?" shot of McCain and Bush cutting birthday cake during Katrina.  And I don't think people are going to fall for anything that is such a blatant politicization of a tragic event.  

    Parent
    And if they just went on with (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:20:17 PM EST
    their convention as if nothing was happening, we'd be crucifying them for that.

    In all fairness, they're in a nearly impossible position.


    Parent

    It's not impossible (none / 0) (#141)
    by standingup on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:34:34 PM EST
    I don't think it is reasonable to expect them to postpone or delay the convention.  It is perfectly understandable and expected that certain members will not be able to attend.  The governors of affected states in addition to Bush, Cheney and any other officials who should be focusing on the response should not be at the convention.  But who else and what else is needed or can be done?  I think there is a risk of overkill that will not help rebuild the public's confidence in their competency.  

    Parent
    No, really, postponing the convention (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:01:19 PM EST
    would be financially disastrous for both the city and their party, and logistically essentially impossible to find another place that could host it (think of the thousands of hotel rooms needed) on short order.

    I've had some involvement in major business conference/convention planning, and I'm tellin' ya, it's not realistically possible.

    They seem to be feeling their way along on this, and if the report on McCain giving his acceptance speech from the hurricane zone is false, which I suspect it may be since it's so preposterous, they're doing a fairly good job in a miserable situation for everyone.

    Parent

    Here's a good one - this morning I heard someone (none / 0) (#156)
    by allimom99 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:50:03 PM EST
    asking if the Rs would be having their convention's corporate sponsors donate the 50 million to hurricane relief instead. My answer would be that we'll follow the Ds lead on this one. I agree that they're between a rock and a hard place on this one, but I think the delay was actually the right move.

    Parent
    lol (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Valhalla on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:26:26 PM EST
    An exclusive from MSNBC?

    When other outlets with more credibility report it, I'll believe it.  Otherwise it sounds just like typical msnbc haka to rile their audience.

    Parent

    Unless he'll be.... (3.66 / 3) (#85)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 01:57:53 PM EST
    shoveling sandbags or helping in some other capacity, I don't see the point.

    Get outta the way old man, people have work to do!

    Parent

    Symbolbism matters (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:19:31 PM EST
    or Obama wouldn't have announced his own campaign and his VP in Lincoln's shadow in Springfield.


    Parent
    Seriously.... (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:01:30 PM EST
    does standing around giving a speech during a hurricane, diverting resources away from the disaster to your security, symbolize anything but placing your political career above human life?

    Parent
    Add... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:13:46 PM EST
    unless he takes my advice and brings work gloves, that would be a winner.

    If I was his campaign manager, and sun god forbid Gustav hits hard...I'd send him down there and tell him to do his best Sean Penn impression, and tell the country this is no time for campaign speeches or conventions.

    Parent

    That's the problem with symbolism (none / 0) (#187)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:24:01 PM EST
    of course, is that people bring their own baggage to it.  So any symbolism from McCain is going to be seen cynically by those of us who are complete cynics about Republicans.

    But then, if you have been watching him of late, or at least reading the blog host here, everything he is doing now is to reach out to Republicans -- not to you, not to me.  See if you can think through what this would symbolize to them.

    That is, if you're interested in dispassionate analysis.  It seemed so from your previous comments.  But maybe I misread them, and you just want to add to the clutter here.  Of course, that's fine and can be fun.  It just would mean that I misread you.

    Parent

    Ummm (5.00 / 0) (#171)
    by rdandrea on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:06:20 PM EST
    Springfield is where he got his start in elected office.

    Parent
    Actually, he got his start (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Cream City on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:14:47 PM EST
    in the streets of Chicago, of course.  They sent him to Springfield.  I think it would have been very cool to launch his campaign in his state senate district.  Do you?

    But let's look at another instance.  Why did Edwards fly from the Carolinas to give his endorsement of Obama in Michigan instead of either the Carolinas or Illinois?

    Parent

    I know you are joking (none / 0) (#186)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:21:47 PM EST
    But I am sorry, that is rude. I guess old people should just go crawl under a rock and die. Sheesh!

    Parent
    To me, it reminds me of (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:08:26 PM EST
    George W. Bush's pathetic decision to stage his Katrina empathy speech in Jackson Square.

    Parent
    Jeralyn what happent to no personal attacks. (none / 0) (#123)
    by Saul on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:25:58 PM EST
    By allowing a commenter to put on a video that is personally  attacking Palin is just as bad as a commenter making a personal attack not the commenter that put posted the video on is agreeing with the video but you still see the personal attack by a Obama supporter.  Just because Diddy is not physically posting on the blog does not make it right.  You should be objecting to any form of personal Palin attack on your blog

    Looks like a double standard because you want the viewers on your blog to see the video.  

    Sure wish we could discuss the (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:31:33 PM EST
    merits of the McCain campaign discussing what we can't discuss here and what Obama says we shouldn't discuss.

    Parent
    More interesting still... (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:38:28 PM EST
    The anti Palin video is posted by an anti Obama commenter. You can't tell the players without a program anymore.

    Parent
    Yeah, really. (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:09:19 PM EST
    And that includes non-Clinton supporters telling Clinton supporters how they think, who they'll vote for, and when and by what they should be swayed or insulted.

    Parent
    this site supports the Democratic ticket (5.00 / 0) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:40:45 PM EST
    and will urge people to vote for it repeatedly between now and November. If you object to that,it's time to go elsewhere.

    Parent
    Where in my post (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 05:01:08 PM EST
    is there a single word about not supporting the Democratic ticket? Where is there a single word about objecting to this site's support of that ticket?


    Parent
    I thought you were referring to this site (none / 0) (#217)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 06:54:03 PM EST
    by this comment: "non-Clinton supporters telling Clinton supporters". Who were you talking about?

    Parent
    Nobody, including non-Clinton supporters (none / 0) (#219)
    by echinopsia on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 08:58:23 PM EST
    (and Clinton supporters, for that matter) on this site or elsewhere has a right to tell me when and by what I should be insulted, what I think, or how I will vote.

    That's what I'm here for. I can express my thoughts and actions perfectly well myself.

    Parent

    Fiscal policies on target? (none / 0) (#147)
    by jtaylorr on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:39:14 PM EST
    She left Wasilla with $20 million in debt.

    Sounds about right (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by CoralGables on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 02:52:28 PM EST
    That sounds right in line with Ronald Reagan, George H Bush and George W Bush. Line the pockets of your friends with taxpayer money, bankrupt it, and move on. It was very republican of her. I can see why she has a fan base. Gotta love those that govern with credit card mentality on the taxpayers dime.

    Parent
    AK largest budget (none / 0) (#190)
    by waldenpond on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:29:20 PM EST
    I read she signed the largest AK budget ever which isn't particularly relevant. Was this a lower or higher percentage increase than prior Govs and how does she compare to budget growth with other states.... if she has a higher percent growth than prior years and isn't low per capita compared to other states, I am wondering why she was picked.  

    The Dems better know what programs that 20 million was used to fund before they attack.  They can get her if any money went to friends, but if she used it for healthcare, children or infrastructure (deterioration of infrastructure is an issue) Biden will need to be prepared that she can show she's 'principle rather than party' in the debate.

    Parent

    Bob Somerby.... (none / 0) (#165)
    by Oje on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 03:00:59 PM EST
    on the Bridge to Nowhere.

    Huh? (none / 0) (#207)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:23:35 PM EST
     Biden decides not to march in Pittsburgh parade

    Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden came to Pittsburgh today, but decided not to march in the Labor Day Parade. He said Hurricane Gustav in the Gulf Coast made it inappropriate for him to campaign in the festive setting of the parade.

    "This is just not a day for national politics. Our focus should be what's happening in the Gulf," Mr. Biden said during a Downtown news conference while the parade was under way a few blocks away.

    Gov. Ed Rendell, U.S. Sen. Bob Casey and numerous Allegheny County politicians marched at the front of the parade. Mr. Biden said he had no problem with them participating, as the Labor Day Parade is an annual event for them and their attendance is expected. But the standard is different for someone on a national ticket, he said.
    Like the price of a stock, (none / 0) (#210)
    by NYShooter on Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 04:32:33 PM EST
    everything is discounted and factored in.
    The only thing that matters is:
    Sarah Palin's approval rating in AK....80+%

    Unless the locals can't see, hear, or read, the line of attack I've seen so far is going nowhere but to the benefit of John McCain.

    Labor Day Open Thread | 173 comments (173 topical)

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