Victims and the Cycle of Violence

By TChris, Section Death Penalty
Posted on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 02:55:30 PM EST
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One of the murderers of Deborah Thornton was executed for that crime. Here's what Deborah's brother, Ronald Carlson, thinks of that:

Wanting to see those who killed your loved ones suffer the same fate is understandable — no one can sit in judgment of those who have faced such loss — but our justice system should not be dictated by vengeance. As a society, shouldn’t we be more civilized than the murderers we condemn? ... The death penalty does nothing more than continue the cycle of violence that is corroding our society.
I have stood more than one time with Death Row families as they prepared to watch their loved ones head to the execution chamber. The pain that they feel is no different from the pain that I felt for my sister. When we engage in the practice of capital punishment, we force more people to suffer through the tragic loss I had to endure. We simply create more victims — victims of the very criminal justice system meant to protect us....

[more ...]

Watching the execution [of Karla Faye, the woman convicted of murdering his sister] left me with horror and emptiness, confirming what I had already come to realize: Capital punishment only continues the violence that has a powerful, corrosive effect on society. ...
As I watched Karla Faye die, all I could think was this: I can’t see Jesus pulling the switch.

When death penalty advocates say that executions help families of victims, they never mention people like Ronald Carlson.

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Victims and the Cycle of Violence | 13 comments (13 topical)

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glad you wrote this up (5.00 / 2) (#1)
by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 02:58:29 PM EST

I almost did earlier. Readers should also check out the great organization, Murder Victims Families for Reconciliation. More from our archives on MVFR here.

I wish that as a society we paid more attention (5.00 / 3) (#2)
by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:08:38 PM EST

to the expression of Mr. Carlson's attitude rather than the vengeance seekers. I rarely see this position represented, and it is the one I think we all should aspire to if we are unfortunate enough to be in that situation.

It is the loud voices of the 'vengeance lobby' that get the ears of the politicians and shape our death penalty laws.

My only objection to the death penalty (5.00 / 0) (#11)
by Faust on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:42:09 PM EST

is that it seems that one can never reach 100% certainty that innocents will not be put to death as a result of it. There is plenty of evidence that many innocent people have been killed by the state even though they were innocent.

Until I am convinced that 100% of those killed via the death penalty are guilty of the crimes they are charged with I cannot support it. 1 innocent death is too large a price to pay for a death penalty system.

That's the only reason I'm against the death penalty, but I'll stand by it.

Well (none / 0) (#3)
by Steve M on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:10:36 PM EST

It seems to me that we are taking the position that the victim's opinion is significant when they happen to agree with us.

It's true, not all victims are interested in vengeance. I assume we all know the story of Daniel Pearl's father, for example. But what about the victims who do want retribution? We still don't think they should get it, do we?

: I think their opinions are significant (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by ruffian on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:53:36 PM EST

regardless. I think they should all be heard. But if the vengeance they seek requires death, I just don't think we have the right to oblige them.

: actually, no, (none / 0) (#12)
by cpinva on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 05:13:54 AM EST

they shouldn't.

But what about the victims who do want retribution? We still don't think they should get it, do we?
that's not our system's purpose, technically speaking. it supposedly is what sets us apart from tribalism. supposedly.
executions do not, will not and probably never have brought "closure" to any victim's family or friends. simply put, again, that isn't its purpose. nor, is it the state's job to provide it. anyone claiming otherwise is either a fool, a liar, or a republican running for office. or all three.
executions are merely state sanctioned murder; the way the state shows who's in charge, and the level of its power over the rest of us.
while i'm sympathetic to victims of crime, and their families, their opinion, with respect to the punishment meted out is of no consequence whatever. if they can be compensated for any economic loss, or physical damages, clearly they should be, by the perpetrator. aside from that, nowhere in our constitution are they granted any special rights, as crime victims. the whole concept is anethema to our system of law; it's a fraud.

Venegence is victim rage (none / 0) (#4)
by MichaelGale on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 03:44:58 PM EST

I would like someone to do some kind of followup to execution and the result 5 or 10 years later of how the families of victims respond.

People appear to believe that executing someone for the crime will bring closure. I am not sure of that.

I can't say for sure how I would react to a murder of someone I loved or a member of my family. I truly do not know. I think that I would, however, take responsibility for my own grief and not expect an execution to make it go away.

: Not from anything I've ever heard (none / 0) (#7)
by JavaCityPal on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 05:56:17 PM EST

the families say after the murderer was executed. In fact, those I've heard have said it didn't bring them the satisfaction they expected.
The victim is not available to speak to their need for revenge. Losing a relative, particularly a close relative, to anything other than natural cause is extremely difficult to accept. Nothing changes when punishment is delivered. The person remains gone.
I can't even sit on a jury that wants to put someone in prison for a month, I sure couldn't be a participant in demanding someone be put to death.

From the column (none / 0) (#6)
by Callimachus on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 04:08:45 PM EST

"Karla Faye's religious conversion while on Death Row had led many, including Pope John Paul II, to express support for clemency, but it was to no avail."

Ought it to have mattered?

I don't want execution for revenge (none / 0) (#8)
by dianem on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 07:52:33 PM EST

I don't want any person in jail to avenge their crime. We get entirely too focused on vengeance and forget justice and deterrence. Punishment should be fair and it should discourage crimes. I support the death penalty because I want to have that one punishment available for the very worst crimes. We vastly overuse it - it should not be available for "routine" murder. It should be used only in very special circumstances - rape and murder, multiple murders, assassinations, mass murder. I want the death penalty to be reserved for people who have committed crimes so horrible that they have given up their personhood - their right to live. I want rapists to know in the back of their mind that if they kill their victim they face death if they are caught. And no death penalty on circumstantial evidence. It should only be available for cases where the evidence is irrefutable - based on hard evidence, not witness testimony or snitches. This is too important to use lightly. In my world, executions would be rare. At most a few a year. Maybe entire years without any.

Just to be fair, there is another POV. (none / 0) (#9)
by jccamp on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 08:01:49 PM EST

"When they entered the apartment they found Jerry Dean asleep. Garrett attacked Dean with a hammer. Dean was making a gurgling sound so Karla finished him off with the pick axe...Karla attacked Deborah Thornton with the pickaxe, raining numerous blows into her body and finally leaving the pick axe embedded in her torso...Tucker later was heard on a police wiretap saying she had an orgasm every time she sank the pickaxe into Dean and Thornton's bodies...The pair stole Jerry Dean's money and car before they left."

Richard Thornton, the victim's husband, and her son, Bucky David, 24, and step-daughter, Kathryn Thornton, 26, were among those who watched the execution. Afterwards Thornton said: "I want to say to every victim in the world, demand this execution. This day belongs to Deborah Ruth Thornton. Her killer has been sent to a place we're all going to go to sometime, some place my wife already is. He also dismissed Ms. Tucker's apology to his family as "staged." "I don't believe in her Christianity. I don't believe in her conversion" he said.

So the Ms. Tucker and her companion went to an occupied apartment to steal a Harley Davidson. They found the occupant asleep, and murdered him even though he was sleeping, and obviously, neither resisting or trying to summon help. Then they found the female victim and killed her because she was an eyewitness. This was a crime for financial gain, not a crime of passion, involving the savage and cold-blooded murder of two innocent victims.

One can make a reasonable argument that there is a governmental interest in seeking capital punishment for some small selection of particularly heinous crimes. Calling this "vengeance" is to misrepresent - to trivialize - the opposing POV.

Personally, I think CP is applied unevenly, and given the typical length of appellate process, meaningless as a disincentive to other committing similar crimes. I think it's a waste of time and money better spent elsewhere. But I defend the right of government to demand justice on behalf of the victims, who have been rendered powerless to demand such themselves by the intentional and premeditated actions of Ms. Tucker and her male companion. There's plenty of room for a reasoned debate, but to term people like Mr Thornton the "vengeance lobby" is a cheap shot.

Prosecutors are very selective with c/punishment (none / 0) (#10)
by ChuckieTomato on Sun Aug 03, 2008 at 09:23:27 PM EST

That issue needs to be addressed, but many crimes are deserving of the death penalty.


: Good point. (none / 0) (#13)
by jccamp on Mon Aug 04, 2008 at 07:57:56 AM EST

I agree that's a genuine issue, but as long as prosecutors are generally elected locally, we will continue to have varying standards. Prosecutors will be responsive to what their local constituents want (or what the local papers are saying).