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Wednesday Night Convention Open Thread 2

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Democratic National Convention 2008
Posted on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:14:56 PM EST
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I'll have some thoughts on Biden when he speaks at 10:30. Share you thoughts here.

This is a Convention Open Thread.

Beau Biden doing a very nice job in the intro for Biden.

This is a subjective thing, but personally, I do not care for Biden's delivery. To me, it is over the top. Maybe it works like gangbusters in Scranton. Does not work for me.

I dunno, I wanted an attack dog, but Biden makes it look like blowhard. Again, this is a subjective thing, but his style ain't working for me. I thought they would smooth him out a bit more than this. The alternating shouting and then into the quiet, emotional voice, too jarring.

Barack Obama arrives. He's definitely a rock star, and I mean that in a good way.

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    Wednesday Night Convention Open Thread 2 | 133 comments (133 topical)

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    You must have a lot of thoughts BTD :) (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Teresa on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:20:18 PM EST


    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Coldblue on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:22:51 PM EST
    but we like him just the same ;)

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:23:01 PM EST
    Well, fixed now.

    Parent
    No bounce? (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by janarchy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:23:02 PM EST
    I haven't seen any polls but on Fox, Chris Wallace just mentioned there's been no bounce from either first two nights of the convention while talking to Howard Dean and all Dean could do was say that it didn't matter, that people would 'get to know the real Barack Obama' from now on.

    Anyone have any more info on the polls?

    (And unfortunate choice of words from Dean -- should we take from that that there's been a fake Obama for the past 18 months and the 'real' one is about to be revealed?)

    The Real (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:33:29 PM EST
    Barack Obama? Is Dean delusional? Yes, the "real barack obama" will be what the GOP decides it will be since Obama failed to use the time he has had to define himself.

    Expect a negative bump from the convention. If Hillary couldn't deliver anything for him last night then when the "Obama temple" opens for business, it's all going to be downhill.

    Parent

    Polls within 24 hours (none / 0) (#32)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:34:59 PM EST
    of Hillary's great endorsement, before Bill's and before Barack's speech, are pretty much useless to me.

    What kind of pollster polls, compiles, and expects insta-bump?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:38:27 PM EST
    Dean didn't seem to think there would be a bump. I guess we'll see.

    Parent
    Howard Dean (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:39:54 PM EST
    need we say more!  

    Thank goodness the Clintons are there to help us realize that this party is not just a trifecta of losers (Dean, Pelosi, Kerry).

    Parent

    I know. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:42:13 PM EST
    I gives me no confidence however that the trifecta of losers are the ones who picked the candidate.

    Parent
    Well of course Chris Wallace would say that (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by litigatormom on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:43:12 PM EST
    It doesn't matter whether its true or not.

    Dean's response, on the other hand, sounds pathetic.

    Parent

    That's why I was asking (none / 0) (#76)
    by janarchy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:46:37 PM EST
    I don't put a lot of stock into what Wallace says, but he asked Dean to his face and that was the response. I was just wondering about the actual numbers as I haven't seen anything myself

    Parent
    a little early (none / 0) (#6)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:25:50 PM EST
    I think you really have to wait until friday or saturday or monday to really know. I think we do know enough from a few polls that Biden had no bounce <insert hair joke here>.

    Parent
    I was surprised (none / 0) (#13)
    by janarchy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:29:16 PM EST
    that Dean didn't at least say something like that. Instead, he looked kind of miserable and accepted it as gospel and nattered on about how it was going to change.

    Parent
    See (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:34:18 PM EST
    I knew I was picking up on a death pall from the convention.

    Parent
    It's weird (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by janarchy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:40:25 PM EST
    They should be triumphant the way they've bamboozled everyone.

    My mom (who still tunes into CNN, unlike me) said Donna B. looked miserable today also. I wonder what went on behind the scenes with the delegates today.

    Parent

    That's true about Brazile (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by andrys on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:26:19 PM EST
    It was as if all her energy left her.  And she seemed somewhat nostalgic and even maybe mildly regretful about something when they were talking about Hillary.  Very quiet and low key and not engaged. Maybe no sleep.

    Parent
    Funny, you'd think she would have (none / 0) (#119)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:03:33 PM EST
    been elated!

    Parent
    Maybe she sensed she'd have to (none / 0) (#120)
    by Valhalla on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:11:29 PM EST
    sit through 5 solid minutes of applause for Bill.

    Parent
    Today's Gallup and Rasmussen (none / 0) (#88)
    by andrys on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:53:33 PM EST
    2 DAYS BEFORE
     Gallup:
       Tied
     Rasmussen:
       Obama:  3 ahead of McCain

    1 DAY BEFORE
     Gallup:
       McCain: 2 ahead of Obama  (first time McCain had a lead)
     Rasmussen:
       Tied

    ***
    *TODAY
    *    ***
     Gallup:
       Obama:  1 ahead of McCain
     Rasmussen:
       McCain: 1 ahead of Obama

    Watching this. page


    Parent

    Biden should have asked (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:24:48 PM EST
    Hillary's video people to do his.  

    The Clinton's old friends the Thomassons (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:26:38 PM EST
    did theirs. I'm sure they took special pride in doing it.

    Parent
    Aw, Jill Biden (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:26:21 PM EST
    is really sweet.  I think it is great that the Clintons made a point of setting the nation up for this family.

    Bo not bad either (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Redshoes on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:27:46 PM EST


    that's Beau's (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Redshoes on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:29:17 PM EST
    I type with my toes!

    Parent
    You and me both! (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST


    Parent
    Hmm, Beau (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:28:53 PM EST
    speaks about the Crime bill...some are clapping...but I respect Jeralyn for I am sure, not doing so!

    Bo Biden is looking good (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:30:00 PM EST
    If he sounds like Patrick Murphy, well, that's no an accident--that's the (mild) Philly Accent. /Regional Pride

    Too bad I can't spell his name. . . (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:30:25 PM EST


    Parent
    Setting the plagiarism charge straight: It was an (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:32:13 PM EST
    early example of the MCM acting as the deciderers of who our candidates would be.

    Media Matters covers it very well.

    I had never realized Dukakis was involved in this charge, but it was the big important newspapers who never reported the truth. Small ones did. They were obviously playing the game they love so well: Bringing down Dems who might rock the boat and choosing our candidates.

    That, I think, is the real story. Until the internet we didn't have a way to figure out why the MCM was covering some things and not others, coming up with stupid charges against some candidates and ignoring real charges against others.

    Wow. Been going on how damn long?

    Tonight Brian Williams asked Kerry why he didn't go after the Swift Boaters until "too late." Kerry pointed out that they did respond, that some news agencies DID cover their responses. He did not name those who did not. But, the big ones? They let it fester. They had an agenda.

    We need and deserve a much better free press. Heck, a free press instead of the MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) would be great!

    I have to say that is spin. (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Romberry on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:12:38 PM EST
    I was 26 years old when the Biden plagiarism issue popped up and Media Matters here is closer to making excuses for Biden than they are to setting anything straight.

    David Greenberg at Slate had a good article on this issue, "The Write Stuff." Also see the article by Jack Shafer.

    It doesn't matter that Biden had credited Neil Kinnock previously. It matters that he not only stopped crediting Kinnock but stood before an audience an appropriated portions of Kinnock's bio as if it were his own.

    Parent

    Thank you. I read the apologists (none / 0) (#139)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 09:50:00 AM EST
    for Biden on this yesterday and thought I recalled it quite differently.  You saved me finding the sources on the other side of this debate.  And as one who has been plagiarized, it matters to me a lot more, apparently, than to many here.

    Parent
    Thank you so much, Romberry, Cream City--I also (none / 0) (#140)
    by jawbone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:05:43 AM EST
    remembered the plagiarism charge as being more serious and serial than Media Matters wrote, but I blamed my aging gray cells and thyroid brain fog for misremembering.

    So, my memory was correct--and Media Matters, gasp, is playing a bit facilely with facts and history. Oh, no! Media Matters messing up? Now I have to double check them as well?

    It's too much work!

    Thanks for the links, the correction. I apologize for posting without doing more checking. I know enough to fact check some of the fact checkers, but I was feeling MM was pretty accurate. They need to amend this piece as it is misleading.

    Another day, another email....

    Parent

    The Clintons seem to really like Joe Biden. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:33:43 PM EST
    ...and it seems like its pretty mutual.

    Joe and Bill and Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:36:25 PM EST
    are not part of the 'Washington social scene.'

    Down-to-earth working-class boys who made it.

    Parent

    Biden is a really nice guy. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Grace on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:41:31 PM EST
    I loved his son Beau's intro...  It was a touching speech.  

    Parent
    Yes. Only problem (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:34 PM EST
    (see if any Republicans even know this) was claiming that his father wrote the Violence Against Women Act.

    Biden's office merged in portions of another bill, but the significant portions of it and the significant push for it came from the great Rep. Pat Schroeder's bill in the House.

    It would have been favorable enough, pandering to the women's vote, for the son to give his father credit for being the Senate sponsor.  Especially seeing as both Dem candidates have this plagiarism thing to deal with now.  Not serious plagiarism to the point of some we've seen -- but best not to open that door at all for the GOP to play with the perceptions on this.

    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Iphie on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:19:28 PM EST
    Somewhere in the back of my mind I had Pat Schroeder connected to the Violence Against Women Act -- thanks for reminding me why.


    And yeah, I may be looking too cynically at this, but all of this talk about equal pay and combating domestic violence seems incredibly convenient and transparent to me. Where was this kind of talk from either Obama or Biden for the last 18 months? If I'm supposed to be swayed by this it's not working -- all that is going through my head is a reminder that Obama once told us he was against retroactive telecom immunity, so his word that he is going to fight for these issues isn't incredibly persuasive.

    Parent

    And my thanks go to the ocmmente (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Cream City on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 08:56:10 AM EST
    I can't recall from the other night who got into this, and something about it nagged at me, too.  So I looked it up again.

    Btw, I got to meet the great Pat Schroeder at an incredible women's event at the Capitol -- adding to a memorable event for me in many ways.  I had brought my daughter, too, and felt a bit like the people in the balcony in To Kill A Mockingbird telling Scout to stand up, because her father was walking by.  My daughter was so young then, but she remembered just recently that I told her that she had just met a person of greatness and courage.  And she since has learned why.

    Parent

    Now THAT... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by sj on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 09:39:37 AM EST
    ... brought a tear to my eye.

    Parent
    Romberry's Comment #121, just above, has links (none / 0) (#141)
    by jawbone on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:16:57 AM EST
    showing Biden's lifting of Kinnock's words--and bio, and ignoring his own actual bio!!--do make his more serious than Media Matters says. I feel mislead by MM--now we were mislead on a fact which is knowable and would have been just as effective if the whole truth had been told. And would haved scored points with women by honoring the role of  Rep. Pat Schroeder.

    Do go the #121 links--and get the whole background. (I think it's accurate!)

    Damn, what's wrong with the Obama fact checkers? They misnamed Eugene McCarthy as Joe! eeek! They must be terribly, terribly young...or something.

    Now, this howler in Biden's big speech>

    What's saving him from being savaged again is that the MCM has decided to let Obama have a chance at winning. They're putting their thumb on the scale differently this year, to the detriment of McCain. As Somerby points out, if you didn't ike their doing against our pols, you shouldn't like it when they do for our pols.

    But, we'll live with it, right? And Somerby will be castigated by the Official Obama Fan Base for not going along; but, he's used to that by now.

    Parent

    Nice call out to Bill and HIllary (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:33:56 PM EST
    Clinton.  Classy.

    Even if I don't like Biden's politics (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Redshoes on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:34:01 PM EST
    much of the time.  It's nice that's he's likable.

    Biden needs to dial back the emotion (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:34:24 PM EST
    It is over the top.

    I think he's doing ok (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:37:04 PM EST


    Parent
    He didn't get the memo tonight's (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:41:29 PM EST
    theme is national security.  He did get "single mom" in though.  

    Parent
    Naw (5.00 / 0) (#49)
    by Redshoes on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:38:06 PM EST
    You gotta touch people.  One of my criticisms of Obama is that he appears emotionally too detached.  You cann't accuse Biden of that.

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:38:24 PM EST
    And far too personal...seems like he's wandering his way through the speech...a bit disconnected, one sentence from another...

    Parent
    Maybe crazy uncle (none / 0) (#40)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:36:49 PM EST
    will become fighter for the people?  He seems to be building up to it...we'll see.

    Parent
    Yeah, he's really on the edge (none / 0) (#43)
    by DemForever on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:37:19 PM EST


    Parent
    It will be a nice mix with Obama's cool though (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:37:46 PM EST
    in the long run - just over the top for these few minutes.  

    Parent
    He's playing to the women... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:39:46 PM EST
    it's a good story.

    I sense, though, that this speech could go on for a long, long time.

    Parent

    I agree. It sent me back to the computer (none / 0) (#98)
    by andrys on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:01:39 PM EST
    because I can't take sustained high levels...

    Parent
    Hey, Biden thanked Clinton (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by litigatormom on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:35:22 PM EST
    Praised his presidency as bringing back peace and prosperity, and said "I only hope that Barack and I can do the same."

    Has the rejection of Clintonism ended?

    Let's HOPE so. (none / 0) (#100)
    by andrys on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:29 PM EST
    It's even happening on dailykos where they are contributing one after the other to pay off Hillary's campaign debt which has only one more day.

    http://hillaryclinton.com

    Parent

    It needs to come from Obama (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by pmj6 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:48:39 PM EST
    Obama got everything he could hope for from the Clintons, the endorsements, the kudos, the (undeserved) praise. Now it's his turn to return the favor.

    Parent
    McCain's mom could debate Biden's mom... (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:36:15 PM EST
    ...they are both adorable.

    I'm having a wee bit of trouble (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by chel2551 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:40:53 PM EST
    with Biden talking about the American Dream slipping away when he's also known as Biden, D-MBNA.

    Biden tells a story well (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:41:49 PM EST
    but there he goes with the single mom raising kids on her own thing. Didn't she remarry and move to Indonesia with her husband?

    Yes. (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:45:51 PM EST
    She was a single mom for a few years. I don't know why they continue to lie about this. We're going to look like a bunch of fools when the GOP cracks that nut. It's like his step father never existed in the biography. I think his mother stayed married to him for quite a while.

    Parent
    Not that long, I think (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by litigatormom on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:48:35 PM EST
    Although longer than Barack Senior. And Barack Junior was five before she married the second husband.  

    Anyway, it's not a fabrication, if not as dire as some people may think.

    Parent

    To me (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:53:34 PM EST
    being raised by a single mother means the majority of your life not a couple of preschool years. Really, from what I understand, the people who really raised him were his grandparents. It would be more truthful and a testament to a least his grandmother to tell it this way.

    Parent
    If it was a few years it is a little better (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:51:26 PM EST
    Not stretching it as much as I thought. I thought it was only a year or two - not that that is not hard.

    Parent
    It was 2 years, age 4 to age 6 (none / 0) (#129)
    by andrys on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 01:31:50 AM EST
    And the grandparents were there.

    They need to cut this 'single mom' stuff because it'll look strange to others (as it does to us) and speak to credibility, since other parts of history, the missing years he just keeps quieter on, are being brought out last week in a mainstream paper or magazine with questions as to why he hasn't mentioned them.  It creates unnecessary mystery.  

    Ages 6-10 he spent in Indonesia, which he's credited (in the San Francisco mansion talk) toward his foreign affairs experience that has left him somewhat more experienced there than Hillary or McCain (this was said seriously).

    Parent

    Close, or correct - who knows (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 02:13:27 AM EST
    She was single from the time he was 2-4. But, you're right, his book said they arrived in Indonesia when he was 6. Hard to keep all the stories straight.

    Then, if she also left her second husband prior to his being out of high school, he was living with his grandparents. He went to live with his grandparents at the age of 10.

    Not sure when the food stamp section was, but his mother refused child support from both husbands. And, food stamps were not unusual for students. She was getting her graduate degrees. Not sure how she paid for her education.

    No matter what, the story he was raised by a single mother on food stamps is a really, really big stretch of truth.


    Parent

    It's a useful fiction that no one will (none / 0) (#68)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:43:38 PM EST
    seriously question.

    Parent
    Except Jeralyn. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:44:15 PM EST


    Parent
    Um, QED (none / 0) (#74)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:45:52 PM EST


    Parent
    Don't bet (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:47:40 PM EST
    on it. Have you forgotten that there's a Republican party out there? They'll use this bit of fiction to talk about Obama lies about his background playing right into their narrative. I don't know why I am constantly amazed that Dems shoot themselves in the foot when they do it regularly. How many times do they have to be thrashed before they learn? Thousands it would seem.

    Parent
    It just jars me when I hear it (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:49:18 PM EST
    And everyone repeats it as a talking point. Dangerous.

    Parent
    It's not even a fiction (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Faust on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:31:51 PM EST
    at worst it's an overly suggestive decontextualization.

    Parent
    Biden biden biden... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:48:37 PM EST
    what is your role going to be?  I hear him attacking McCain and it is certainly a good development.  But he lacks the Clinton flair for doing so.  [I think Biden may need more time to develop his own sense of what he will do as VP].

    Though I think he's a bit of an easy target for the GOP, the thought of Bayh or Kaine doing this makes me thank my lucky stars.  Thank God it's Biden.

    He is trading (none / 0) (#85)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:51:14 PM EST
    the goofy for FP expertise.  I'm not convinced he will be good at balancing the two though.  But this Russian/Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran section is decent.

    Parent
    Biden, McCain, the Clintons (none / 0) (#97)
    by Grace on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:01:36 PM EST
    They're all like old friends.  It's Obama that's the outsider.  

    This is going to be an interesting campaign season.  I can see Biden and McCain going after each other on policy issues, not on personal issues.  

    Parent

    I hope so. (none / 0) (#115)
    by Faust on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:26:25 PM EST
    If McCain actually starts talking about policy he's sunk.

    Parent
    FOX news is covering (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Grace on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:09:53 PM EST
    how hard it has been to "talk up" Obama's experience because his resume is so thin.  Aside from winning this campaign, he really hasn't done a lot.  

    Pretty interesting.  

    As opposed to (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by DemForever on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:57 PM EST
    George Bush's and Ronald Reagan's foreign affairs experience?
    I don't know why the Dems don't hammer them more on this hypocrisy.  

    Parent
    Not foreign affairs experience (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Grace on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:21:15 PM EST
    any kind of experience.  Even his community activist experience which they said he covered in his books:  He spent 3 years and didn't accomplish anything except getting asbestos out of one building.  
     

    Parent
    They were both governors, though (none / 0) (#113)
    by andrys on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:22:40 PM EST
    Bush's was more a facade type, from what I've read.

    Reagan was two-term governor of California, not a small job...
    and they both had served full terms.

    Parent

    It might make an effective hammer if (none / 0) (#126)
    by tree on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:24:07 AM EST
    Reagan or Bush was running this year. They aren't. And, repulsive as Reagan was, at least he had executive experience as Governor of California. Bush? Pfffft.

    Parent
    And you REALLY don't want to (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by tree on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 12:26:58 AM EST
    be bringing up experience comparisons with Bush. Stupid, stupid move. "So what if Obama doesn't have any experience, neither did Bush," is not the kind of argument you ever want to make.

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by janarchy on Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 03:10:20 AM EST
    Because the only answer to that is 'and you see how well that worked out for us, right?'

    Parent
    Why would she be surprised? (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by sleepwalker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:15:43 PM EST
    She's just a woman.

    Biden's (5.00 / 2) (