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Explaining What Being A Democrat Means

It is most revealing that the pundits who, apparently looking for things to criticize about Hillary Clinton, complain that Hillary's speech was not about Obama the person, it was about why Democrats should support the Democratic nominee. This is classic personality driven punditry. They do not believe the issues matter. To them it is not about the American People and their lives and issues, it is about their silly Freak Show. Anglachel captures why Hillary Clinton's speech was so powerful and why it was the best possible endorsement that could be delivered for Barack Obama:

It was, first and foremost, a speech about politics. It had plenty of "human interest" and even humor in it. We most certainly got a look into the mind and heart of this woman. But what it was, from the first line to the last, was a full-force evocation of what it means to be a Democrat. In a season where we have been bombarded by bipartisan, everybody let's hug, don't say anything bad about the Republicans, don't be partisan be Obamacan, Unity Ponies for everyone balderdash, Hillary took the party by the scruff of its dithering neck and made it look at the reason we are a party in the first place.

It was a Politics of Contrast/Fighting Dem speech, and the type of speech Barack Obama and every Democrat should be giving. It was about why folks should vote for Democrats and why they should not vote for Republicans. The reasons are bigger than Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    She showed why she should be President (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by myiq2xu on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:49:55 AM EST
    Quality is non-transferable

    Or, at the very least, (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:51:44 AM EST
    Vice President. Why isn't she the VP nominee? I will keep asking until I get an honest answer.

    Parent
    The honest answer is (5.00 / 10) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:54:13 AM EST
    Obama is a petty person.

    It demonstrated a personality driven approach that is problematic.  It is definitely a strike against Obama.

    But in the end, to forward Democratic views, voting for Obama over McCain remains a no brainer.

    Parent

    One last thing.... (5.00 / 18) (#44)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:06:38 AM EST
    and then I'm done with this topic because I respect you very much and what you're trying to do.

    To me, Obama's VP choice demonstrated a bit more than just a personality driven approach that is problematic, as you say. It demonstrated that he is willing to capitulate to the worst tendencies in the party rather than to reach towards the loftiest ones. He capitulated to those who will keep trying to keep women down and who are on board with what was done to the Clintons. End of my story now.

    Parent

    I want to forward liberal views (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by myiq2xu on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:08:36 AM EST
    The Democratic party doesn't.

    Parent
    No... the answer is that (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Exeter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:28:18 AM EST
    Biden was the only Democratic Senator to say that he would would run as McCain's vice president.  Biden was a hot commodity-- if he wouldn't have picked him, McCain would have!


    Parent
    I didn't know that (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:42:12 AM EST
    Guess that answers my question, and explains how he got selected as VP.

    this is such a cluster----  .  They don't want to run on Dem principles, which makes it a personality based campaign. So they are going to rely on making McCain's personal characteristics unacceptable, and whine when he tries to do the same about Onbama. I am really going to hate the next 3 months.

    Parent

    Luckily for us, it's only two months now (none / 0) (#197)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:02:53 AM EST
    at least luckily for us in that sense.

    Maybe not so lucky for the Dems in terms of needing the time to turn this around and win.

    Two months plus a couple of days.  That's it.

    Parent

    thank you for that honesty (5.00 / 11) (#112)
    by Klio on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:32:21 AM EST
    This is truly excruciating.  You're saying that I need to rise above my own personal concerns, which aren't petty, and support the guy who was petty about something of vital importance to all of us.  How did it happen that the voters need to be the magnanimous ones?

    You know, like a lot of people I had a stake in Hillary's campaign not just for her or even her policies, but for me!  It surprises me still, but there it is.

    Parent

    That's what I am telling you (none / 0) (#121)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:35:35 AM EST
    Then you should cut it out (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by RalphB on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:39:10 AM EST
    Since when did the losing candidate have to explain what it means to be a Democrat?  Why is that not a dead loser?

    Seems to me that she is right in what should be supported and voted for.  Now all we need to do is vote for the person who represents those ideals.  Oh wait, she lost so all bets are off.


    Parent

    We've NEVER (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Claw on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:57:26 AM EST
    Had a losing candidate like Clinton.  That's why her speech had to be unusual.  What did you want her to do?  Not support Obama--who's waaay closer to her on everything?  She gave a speech that every American should be proud of.
    Clinton understands what it means to be a democrat.  It means you fight for what you believe in even if you aren't getting everything you want.

    Parent
    That's some tough love big daddy (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:30 AM EST
    See - I'm already regaining my sense of humor.

    Parent
    Hey Dr. Molly, that's cause..... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:43:48 AM EST
    ...you can't keep a good woman down!

    Parent
    Maria.... (none / 0) (#157)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:48:12 AM EST
    yes, plus:  BTD is a smooth talker, no? He usually makes me feel better.

    Parent
    The assumption being... (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by pmj6 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:09:01 AM EST
    ...that Obama will actually advance progressive policies. Nothing he's done so far has convinced me he's anything other than a power-hungry opportunist with no discernible political principles. He's the wrong person for the job, and his pettiness (shades of George W. Bush there, no?) is not a small matter.

    Parent
    Thank you (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:00:25 AM EST
    Looking forward to Biden's speech (none / 0) (#33)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:13 AM EST
    Interesting to see what approach he takes. I'd rather see a positive exposition of what the Dems stand for than an attack-dog style against McCain.

    Parent
    I'm done asking. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:55:04 AM EST
    All I hear are excuses.  Like "B-b-but BILL...!" when Obama will probably want Bill to stump for him.

    Parent
    Did you notice Biden looking a little guilty (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:56:12 AM EST
    when Hillary was greeted with that ovation?  I think it must be obvious to all that the wrong choice was made.

    Parent
    He SHOULD feel guilty (5.00 / 16) (#19)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:56:59 AM EST
    They should all feel guilty.

    Parent
    I don't think (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by justonevoice on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:31:22 AM EST
    that Joe Biden should feel guilty.  He's put his time in as a senator.  And he made his stance clear, if asked he would do it.  The VP slot was Obama's call, not anyone elses.

    I don't think there should be any finger-pointing at Joe Biden.  He's like any other politician seeking higher office.  Besides, I think that HRC was darned if she does darned is she doesn't.  If she would have been VP and they lost, it would have been her fault.  Now there's a cry about her NOT being picked.

    Can't we agree that this is OBAMA's campaign and HIS choices?  I am a fervent Hillary supporter (Personally I am RELIEVED she isn't his VP.)  I would like to think that her choice would have been respected for her VP selection.

    It's Obama/Biden.  Let's move on.

    Parent

    You're right, it's not Biden's fault (5.00 / 5) (#166)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:44 AM EST
    But I still think they should all feel guilty. Anyone who watched her speech last night should realize what a huge mistake it was not to have her on the ticket. The reason they should all feel guilty is because she showed how much better she was than all the small-minded cruelty that's been shoveled her way.

    Remember - I'm not even a Hillary supporter (voted for Obama), I've just been transformed by seeing what's been done to her over the last year. Something snapped. It just wasn't right.

    Parent

    Biden shouldn't feel guilty. (5.00 / 3) (#219)
    by kimsaw on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:25:37 AM EST
    As an independent Obama's pick of VP speaks volumes to me. It offers that Obama thinks he is above the party and not of the party. He has chosen to dismiss his rival and 18 million voters to build on questionable coalition divorced from its core.  Even as an independent I believe you have to stand for something. I just don't see Obama standing up for anything that involves political risk.  He chose Biden, the second best and not the first. Sorry Sen. Biden no disrespect intended. If Obama's going to lead shouldn't he put the interest of his party and the nation above himself. He tells us we will have  to sacrifice for the good of our nation, but he chooses not to sacrifice his ego and picks the second best instead of the best. His choice either shows a lack of confidence or arrogance or both, I don't care what you call it but it is not leadership.

    I would also offer that if Clinton would have been his pick and after her performance last night he would have given him my vote. But a new day brings more clarity and with my deepest respect for Sen. Clinton and the sacrifices she has made. I won't offer my vote in support of a candidate I do not trust will stand up when he needs to.

    Parent

    Maybe guilty is the wrong word (none / 0) (#189)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    I know he didn't do anything wrong.  He jsut looked a little worried at one point, or maybe just emotional for her.  I like him, so I'll give him that.

    Parent
    They should feel stupid. (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Faust on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    It's not like they did anything sneaky and clever. It's not like they were caught with their hand in the cookie jar. They were caught ear-boxing themselves with a pair of bricks.

    Parent
    stupid AND guilty (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:03:26 AM EST
    Stupid -- for not picking her for VP when she brings so much fire and passion and intellect, and for not seeing that, no matter what anyone thought of her before, she transformed herself during this primary into someone who millions want on the ticket.

    Guilty -- for the villification of her that they allowed happen.

    It could have been one, big, happy, redemptive, feelgood ticket.

    They chose Biden.


    Parent

    Seeing that speech (5.00 / 9) (#17)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:56:37 AM EST
    really did make me wonder.  It would have been a lock with her on the ticket.  I don't think that we are going to get a good answer.  But I am going to let it go because there has been too much disappointment in politics since 2000.  I am going to move on and look forward to her leadership in the Senate, no matter what happens.  She was a real star last night.

    Parent
    Hillary is not the VP (1.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Angry Black Guy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:51 AM EST
    Because she and Obama do not get along.

    It's really that simple I think.

    Parent

    They're adults. (5.00 / 11) (#181)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:56:18 AM EST
    She has demonstrated her ability to get along with anyone. If he is so immature that he can't put aside his personal feelings to do what's best to win, then maybe he shouldn't win. The President can't function effectively if he's making decisions based on petty things like personal likes and dislikes. I don't really care if he even hates her. It should have been about the task at hand.

    Parent
    Playing nice (5.00 / 5) (#215)
    by marian evans on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:11:26 AM EST
    Goodness golly, who would have thunk it! It's a spat in the playground..."I'm not playing with you Hillary. I don't want you on my team. Who wants a silly girl in a pantsuit anyway..."

    I thought it was all those over-emotional womenfolk who were supposed to bring their sticky little feelings into the public arena.

    Yet Hillary Clinton just gave us a perfect example of putting public service and party loyalty before personal feelings. Fancy that.

    Parent

    This is (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM EST
    a rejection of what Hillary talked about last night.

    Do you claim to support Hillary's politics? Your comment betrays to me at least that you support Hillary Clinton the person, not the politics Hillary Clinton believes in.

    Parent

    Amen (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jb64 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:54:15 AM EST
    Although I agree partially with this, (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:56:14 AM EST
    I don't think it is quite that black and white. Hillary Clinton's politics do not include the kind of things that have been said and done during this primary campaign.  Hillary Clinton's politics -- democratic politics -- include respect for women's rights and gay rights, and those politics are not fully in display right now. Hillary Clinton's politics would not include shafting the woman who earned a spot on the ticket, and who would perform better on the ticket, than Joe Freaking Biden.

    Parent
    when will Obama address his supporters? (5.00 / 6) (#133)
    by Josey on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:11 AM EST
    who have acted like sexist misogynistic a-holes and continue the "Clintons are racists" narrative - and tell them it's not OK.

    How does it benefit Obama or the Dem Party to leave intact that false narrative?? - especially associated with Bill Clinton.

    Parent

    And McCain? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:00:30 AM EST
    McCain is worse than the democratic ticket (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:04 AM EST
    obviously.

    I am angrier than I was before after seeing her last night. That's all I'm going to say.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:16:44 AM EST
    Maybe we should hide Hillary then.

    It did occur to me that Hillary killing last night may actually be counterproductive.

    I hope that is not true.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 7) (#86)
    by CST on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:20:05 AM EST
    It depends entirely on how Obama's speech goes.  If he continues this theme, her speech will have helped by focusing people on this message.  If he goes into "post-partisan, untiy mode", it will have been counter-productive by highlighting that difference between the two.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:26:58 AM EST
    Well, that's all on Obama then (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by jb64 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:25:40 AM EST
    Hillary set an incredibly high bar last night IMO, and given the fact that the big Dog speaks tonight this thing will either crescendo to a peak not seen in modern Convention annals, or if will piffle out like a dud firecracker.  

    A lot rides on Joe Biden tonight, but I have a feeling that Obama and the Clintons know exactly what they are doing.

    My own opinion is that, with this speech, Hillary will now be the singular Clinton, as opposed to some sort of media created package deal. Her future looks incredibly bright.

    Parent

    I thought so (5.00 / 2) (#216)
    by Faust on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:11:38 AM EST
    In this respect: Hillary's strength was so palpable that it really did invite the question "why is she not VP?"

    Not even in the sense of party unity and resolving the dynamic of the primary conflict though that by itself would have been enough.

    Because she is so strong in and of herself, because her attack on McCain was as good as anything that Biden will come up with (though I think he will do fine) it just highlights the mmmm arbitrariness of a non-Clinton choice for VP.

    That will in my opinion exacerbate the wounds for some people and not close them. As we have already seen in this thread.

    I do hope, however, that people can actually listen to the content of her speech and follow her advice, even though the emotional impact of her presence and excellence of her delivery might overshadow the concrete substance of what she said.

    In fact I advise people who are in anguish over this READ what she said. Read it. Think about it. Read it again. Hillary Clinton imparted an actual message here. It's worth listening to.

    Parent

    It's a mixture (none / 0) (#100)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:28:24 AM EST
    I'll get over it.

    Parent
    The politics Obama believes in (5.00 / 10) (#20)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:57:10 AM EST
    are what worry me.  Not what Hillary believes.

    Unless you think they are somehow interchangeable and that a Clinton presidency would be almost identical to an Obama presidency?

    Parent

    Does McCain? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:00:08 AM EST
    Who comes closer? Obama or McCain?

    Parent
    Gridlock (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:47 AM EST
    in government is not the end of the world.  In fact, often it's more acceptable.

    Parent
    Totally clueless (1.50 / 2) (#40)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:04:49 AM EST
    Don't worry Teresa. (5.00 / 7) (#60)
    by dk on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:39 AM EST
    Andgarden is just practicing his punditry skills.  My prediction...in the next Presidential campaign season, he'll be the new Ezra Klein.

    Aim high, man!

    Parent

    ...still thinking... (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    That's a tough one.

    I think it will depend on the Congressional leaders, to be honest.  I really, really have very little faith in Obama to be a Democrat when it counts the most.  (cough, FISA, cough - thanks Reid/Pelosi)

    Parent

    Hard to tell (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by myiq2xu on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:04:00 AM EST
    They are both so far away in the "right" direction

    Parent
    Obama, being a Democrat, is ipso facto a better (5.00 / 12) (#126)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:38:09 AM EST
    choice than McCain. Is he the best choice for the Dems to be making this week? I still think not.

    My problem has been and still is: What does Obama really plan to do? What does he really believe in? What will we get with an Obama presidency?

    We have precious few real world examples of what Obama has done, how he has voted. It's somewhat difficult to see the trajectory of his actions as president. Some votes have been problematic for me.

    Obama promised to stand against immunity for the telcos--he then voted for FISA. And against our 4th Amendment Rights. Obama voted for the Cheney energy bill. Obama told the workers of some major appliance company in IL he would work for them, but really did nothing, they say. Obama prepared a strong bill to hold nuclear power plants responsible for informing the public and government officials of any leaks which could get into ground water; he eventually dropped requirments and offered a voluntary compliance bill after working across the aisle and with Excelon. He wanted to vote for John Roberts until told by his chief of staff it was politically dangerous; has he learned? or is he again saying the politic thing? And how do we know? He was overheard saying Blackwater had been given a bad rap; what will he do about hiring private military force?

    Oh, and he gave a speech against going into Iraq in a very liberal anti-war district when running for reelection to the IL state senate; he says now he was running for the US Senate when he took that unpopular stand. However, as Kristen Breitweiser has asked, where was he when the anti-war movement needed strong spokespeople? What marches or rallies did he attend or speak at? None. And, once in the US Senate, he did vote to fund the Iraq War/Occupation. Now, he's chosen a man who voted for the Iraq resolution (a vote he held so strongly against Hillary, even tho' she gave a floor speech about that vote explaining just what she was trying to accomplish) as his VP.

    Last night, on Charlie Rose, Charlie and his panel actually began asking just what Obama will do as president. There were few firm answers. But now that he's on the verge of being the actual nominee, the MCMers are beginning to look at what he'll actually DO? Thanks a lot, gang--Not.

    That's why I still have reservations about Obama as president. Does he actually want all those powers Bush/Cheney have accrued to the Unitary Executive? He has said he himself will not use them all, but he doesn't want to take proactive steps to delegitimate them. They'll be there if he "needs" them, as they will be for all following presidents, wise ones or not.

    It's a basic problem of what are his values. Does he actually share all those Democratic Party values Hillary set forth so firmly and clearly last night? Or, does he have other values we're not really sure of? BTW, an Obama supporter on Rose said Obama has been very specific, that he had counted 147 specific proposals in Obama's econ plans. Jacob Weisberg replied that there may be planks, but they're not put together into anything people can grasp (he said not made into a boat or some such metaphor).

    Today, it was reported that Obama's campaign is saying that now there will be strong compare and contrast. Did not say detail or clear explanations.

    What will we get with an Obama presidency? Hillary made the case that only with a Dem prez can a Dem Congress actually get any good legislation it passes signed into law. And the Senate needs to be fiibuster proof (Monday's speech to the NY delegation).

    She made a great argument for Democratic Party values and for voting without being sure about the Dem nominee even if we're not sure what he will do.  Hillary could not make assurances of what Obama will do--she would be guessing and I don't think she wants that flung back on her. She made the best argument a Dem pol who fervently believes in what Dems can accomplish could make: Vote for the Dem to get legislation signed.

    (Question: What things might Obama veto??? Question 2: Will an Obama administration treat legislators the way they treated anyone who didn't support his candidacy? How will he and his staff/supporters treat Dem legislators who don't "get in line" and support his proposals???)

    Oh my. Very young female Obama delegate just on WNYC saying, in response to what do Dems stand for, said: Hope for the future. Hope we can change.

    Gag me.

    Parent

    LOL - I saw that Rose gang (none / 0) (#192)
    by Josey on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:00:43 AM EST
    They were even making suggestions how Bill Clinton could help Obama! you know - Clinton could campaign with Obama in small towns and rural areas and motivate those bitter white Dems that Obama claimed were racists for not supporting him.
    It was all a hoot!
    They still don't 'get it' - that most of the white working class rejects Obama's empty suit, not his race. But Obama's been wearing that empty suit since he entered the presidential race - touting gimmicks and chants while copying policy proposals and solutions from Hillary and Edwards.
    So why change now? - especially since media pundits seem opposed to discussing issues and specifics.

    And the Invesco celebrity shindig continues that narrative -highlighting Obama's speechifying wrapped in elitism and rockstar image.
    It's all so funny. Pundits claim voters "don't know Obama's positions" - but they capitalize on anything but!

    At least McCain's positions are known and many voters aren't willing to turn over the WH to a community organizer.


    Parent

    I support both (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by myiq2xu on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:57:52 AM EST
    The current party leadership does not.

    Neither does the presumptive nominee

    Parent

    I support Hillary Clinton's politics, (5.00 / 11) (#28)
    by sleepwalker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:21 AM EST
    which is why I can't support Obama. Understand, I don't support McCain either - at least not yet. Obama may be closer to Hillary than McCain is, but close only counts in horseshoes. I can't betray my personal principles about how democracy is supposed to work for someone who "isn't John McCain". You've said that you were "tepidly" supporting Obama because you thought he was more electable. Now that he's not, you expect the real Democrat and the real Democrats who support her to carry this sham across the finish line. Get me a real Democrat, and I'll carry my share of the load.

    Parent
    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by blogtopus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:17:01 AM EST
    But I viewed similarly, but with a slight difference: I support everything Hillary stands for, qualities in which many find Obama's policies lacking.

    I, however, and not voting for policies because that choice is not available to me anymore. So I'm voting for the idea: Symbol for President!

    Parent

    As usual, (5.00 / 9) (#202)
    by litigatormom on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:05:44 AM EST
    Hillary is being held to a higher standard than men in similar positions have been.

    Ted Kennedy, beloved as he is, challenged a sitting president, went through the roll call, gave a rousing speech glorifying himself, and then made Carter run after him on the stage to get a handshake. He didn't campaign for Carter. Did anyone blame him when Carter lost?

    Ron Reagan did the same thin in 1976 -- though he might not have run off the stage.  But he certainly didn't work for Ford's election after the convention. Did anyone blame him for Ford's defeat?

    But now Hillary is being given the entire responsibility for Obama's victory by the MCM -- AND she's supposed to LOVE doing it.  Her heart must be pure, she's can't be doing it out of a since of principle or duty.  It's not enough for her to be a loyal Democrat, to urge people to vote in favor of Democratic values.  She has to endorse him in a specific, particular way.

    I think she did what she had to do.  "Barack Obama is MY candidate."  Does she have to say that he'll make a better president than she would have?  IMO, that's a standard no man would ever be asked to meet.

    Parent

    It's funny that you're invoking Pat Buchanan (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:53:14 AM EST
    because he gave a very partisan and divisive speech at a convention once, and quite possibly caused George Bush Sr. to lose (which might anyway have been his intention, who knows).

    Pat understands that if Hillary's speech is seen exclusively through to lens of personal admiration for her, it will not help Obama.

    But unfortunately for Mr. Racist, it was about Hillary and about the party and ideas she cares about so much.

    Parent

    There may indeed be a similarity here... (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by pmj6 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:54 AM EST
    ...though not in the sense that both speakers want the nominees to lose.

    Rather, they were trying to push their party's nominees toward embracing what they considered the fundamental, core principles of the party. GHWB was considered to be a weak conservative, and likewise Obama is practically embarrassed to be called a Democrat, let alone a liberal (the campaign lit I keep getting makes no mention of him being a Democrat, for example). In effect, Hillary gave Obama a lecture on what it means to be a Democrat.

    Of course, he'll ignore that advice. And lose.

    Parent

    I agree, Hillary gave a primer on being a Dem (5.00 / 6) (#150)
    by befuddledvoter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:45:13 AM EST
    It was sorely needed and inspirationally presented.  So very intellectually and emotionally compelling.  When she beseeched her supporters, "Was this all just for me?," it brought tears to my eyes.  Emphatically no!!  It was for the bald-headed woman undergoing chemo with no medical insurance for herself and her two adopted children; it was for the mother whose job hours had been cut back; it was for all those people and heart wrenching stories.  Hillary's speech struck at the very core of what Democrats have always been about.  When you listen to that speech, don't you wonder how someone like Ted Kennedy could have promoted and annointed Barach Obama??  

    Obama needed to be taught what it is to be a Democrat.  His inner circle needed to be reminded that there is a chasm between Republicans and Democrats.  It is NOT just about putting people in boxes; those boxes have real meaning and define how we see the world; what our priorities are; and how we respond to challenges.  

    OBAMA NEEDED THIS LESSON.  IF I DO VOTE FOR HIM, IT WILL BE BECAUSE OF HILLARY'S SPEECH.  
               

    Parent

    It was indeed a partisan speech (5.00 / 8) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:50:05 AM EST
    but a) partisan speeches are good; and b) partisan speeches are especially good when your party has a 10pt ID advantage.

    I think HIllary did more for Obama last night than most people realize.

    And that last point (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:52:21 AM EST
    makes me very sick to my stomach on multiple levels.

    Parent
    Especially at a party convention (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:54:53 AM EST
    If you can't be partisan there, where can you?

    It will be interesting to see how partisan Obama is in his speech. I hope taking it out of the convention hall was not a move away from partisanship.

    Parent

    I wish someone (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by standingup on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:57:55 AM EST
    could explain why Obama and the DNC (from my perspective) seem to be running away a running a partisan Democratic campaign?  The Democratic brand appears to be what people are finally looking to this election and they have the brilliant idea instead to rebrand the party?  This is very discouraging.  

    I remember the hand wringing after 2004 with the candidates that lost in some of the red states.  They kept pushing the idea that Democrats had to change to be able to get the religious voters, pro-life voters and so on to win.  I thought it was a mistake then and fear that wing of the party has won the battle in 2008 only to help us lose the war.  

    Parent

    My opinion is that (5.00 / 12) (#29)
    by dk on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:31 AM EST
    the reason is because Obama and many in the Democratic party leadership simply do not believe in Democratic principles.  They believe in more conservative economic policies on issues such as health care, and in some elements of religious social conservatism on matters relating to women's rights, gay rights, etc.

    I know some disagree with me, and think that Obama believes in the same Democratic principles that the Clintons, for example, do.  I take Obama at his word and by his actions.

    Parent

    Wrong! (none / 0) (#165)
    by Cugel on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:25 AM EST
    Americans are hypocrites. They all LIKE "post-partisanship" so that's popular. Every politician has to genuflect to the icon of "getting past the partisan divisions." Hillary did it last night.

    But, what that really means is "you should do what I think is right." If you don't that's "partisan." Since the right has dominated political discourse in America since 1980, anybody who proposes to change things is "partisan" by definition.

    Obama is smart to play up "post-partisanship." That's exactly what Bush did in 2000, remember?
    Bush's mistake was GOVERNING like it was an election for 4 years.

    His bitter partisanship and big middle-finger to everybody who didn't support him left him absolutely NO room for the slightest failure. In fact, he would have been a 1 term President except for the gift of 9-11 and he managed to totally blow even that advantage. Having once had a 90% approval rating, he lost 60%.

    Parent

    Because that's the kind of campaign (5.00 / 7) (#35)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:36 AM EST
    Axelrod believes in.

    Honestly, I think Mark Penn would do a better job, and that's not saying much.

    At the very least, Obama needs a stronger message and a better media shop.

    Parent

    Roger that. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:09:05 AM EST
    At the very least, Obama needs a stronger message and a better media shop.

    I keep hoping that Obama didn't think that this convention was going to cure what ails his campaign.  It's easy to believe, but it's so very wrong.

    Parent

    The "better message" should have (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:13:30 AM EST
    come months ago, Instead came his "bitter" message. Changing it now might sound and ring false. Phrasing is everything and if he phrased the better message using other dems words and the force behind it, maybe some might pay attention and believe him.

    Parent
    Well Axelrod (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by standingup on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:10:10 AM EST
    did start out in the media and maybe you can take the man out of the media easier than you can take the media misconceptions out of the man.  

    I think they hit it correctly on the change message but missed it with defining the change as post partisan.  

    Parent

    True, that. Chicago is bad training (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:10:50 AM EST
    for being partisan about Republicans, since there are so few there.

    So all Axelrod knows is how to beat (up on) Democrats.

    Parent

    Axelrod does give the impression (none / 0) (#64)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:12:50 AM EST
    that he is out of his league. But I personally just can't get over how much his ads s*ck.

    Parent
    True that, too. And Chicago is a great (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:28:31 AM EST
    center of the ad industry.  Largest ad agency office in the country, and many companies elsewhere in the country come there to get their ads done there.  

    That said, a lot of the local political ads are still laughably stuck in the past.  Not the same level at all.  So maybe the ones I've seen were overseen by Axelrod, since his experience apparently is primarily in Illinois politics, not national politics?

    Parent

    Not exactly (none / 0) (#111)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:32:00 AM EST
    Axelrod has also done local races elsewhere. For example, he was John Street's media guy in his Philly Mayoral race four years ago. (Bleh)

    Parent
    So still primarily in local politics (none / 0) (#208)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:07:18 AM EST
    unquote.  And no national politics.  There it is.

    I have heard things about Philly politics that sound a lot like Chicago, i.e., Dem machine politics?  

    Parent

    Hmm. Because Obama and the DNC (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:09:13 AM EST
    want the surveillance powers in FISA?  So making this a partisan campaign would mean having to explain that vote -- the one since the primaries, so it can't be about Clinton but is about Dem values?

    I can't imagine that it was because Obama and the DNC want McCain to have those powers.

    Parent

    I have to say, it's kind of (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by dk on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:40 AM EST
    bizarre to me that no one takes Obama at his word when he talks the post-partisan, religious game.  

    Parent
    since Obama began his campaign (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Josey on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:20:26 AM EST
    he's rarely mentioned "Democrat" or "Democratic Party." It's like he wanted to reap the benefits of the party without becoming a staunch supporter.
    iirc - BTD wrote a diary about that last year.


    Parent
    Not sure it is just FISA (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by standingup on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:27:27 AM EST
    I saw a replay of a 2007 C-Span Q&A with Stephanie Tubbs Jones the other day.  I was struck, and saddened, at how succinctly she described how the Republicans had shut out Democrats in any legislative matters over the previous six years.  The Dems were not even allowed to participate in committee meetings where both parties are usually present.  We need to explain and emphasize that to the public rather than to act as if the Democrats were just as responsible for any perceived gridlock.  Heck if anything, the Dems biggest failure was acquiescing to the Republicans.  

    Parent
    True. I just specified since the primaries (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:33:50 AM EST
    to shorten the laundry list.  But his actions before the primaries, the time period you cite here, also cannot be excused by the "but he was battling Clinton" line -- unless he was, of course, since we now can see that he was picked to start running for president at the 2004 convention.:-)

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by standingup on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:53:27 AM EST
    and I don't even want to go back to how we have arrived where we are today.  I did enough digging into Obama's rise to know that our votes are really nothing more than an affirmation of what others have already determined.  

    Seems like a good time for a break from the things I cannot change to work in the yard/flowers where I have a little control ;-)

    Parent

    I think the partisanship (none / 0) (#43)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:06:28 AM EST
    last night got a good reaction and will make people rethink this.  It was totally different from the first night, and a LOT better.

    Parent
    That is exactly right! (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Cugel on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:32:52 AM EST
    People overrate the person and underrate the power of the coalition. The base of institutional support is what matters.

    That's why Noam Chomsky calls Richard Nixon the "last liberal president." Not because Nixon wanted to be a liberal, but because he was president in an era when liberalism still had some power. Thus, he enacted the EPA, passed the environmental statutes, created a "war on drugs" that emphasized drug-treatment rather than incarceration, negotiated an arms limitation treaty with Russia, etc.

    Thus, despite all his personal demons, he enacted more progressive legislation than Bill Clinton did. Why? Because Clinton became President during an era of right-wing ascendance. He had to fight just to survive impeachment, let alone accomplish anything.

    I sincerely hope Hillary becomes Senate Majority leader and holds Obama's feet to the fire on health care. She deserves it and I think she'll get it too.

    She is a natural leader of our party and a needed voice in Congress for change.

    Parent

    So do I (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:41:12 AM EST
    Only if Obama picks up on (none / 0) (#18)
    by dk on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:56:53 AM EST
    Hillary's methods and gives partisan speeches himself for the next two months.  

    And that is the problem for him:  If he doesn't, he probably won't win.  If he does, that will involve actually changes his positions on the issues, and he will have to successfully defend against flip-flopperism.

    Parent

    Flip flopping isn't the end (none / 0) (#71)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:22 AM EST
    of the world.

    You just need to push your new position with passion, conviction and substance.  It's not flip flopping, it's a New Improved Position!

    It can be done.  This is just marketing after all, the art of selling whatever the product is.  The product isn't as important as the selling is.

    Parent

    I agree with that in theory. (5.00 / 0) (#80)
    by dk on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:17:41 AM EST
    But again, this will first involve Obama actually changing his position on certain issues (mostly because it's hard to fake the passion and conviction), and then he will need to surround himself with advisors and marketers who can help.

    That's expecting a lot.

    Parent

    A-freaking-men (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by dws3665 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:53:03 AM EST
    The question is, will anyone get it? The media figures, for all their faux-surprise, will soon begin to reconsider the sincerity of her speech simply because, to be blunt, they can't stand her.

    Hillary showed how to have sharp elbows without being angry and scary. Is anyone on Team Obama paying attention?

    And she specifically addressed ... (5.00 / 10) (#8)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:53:26 AM EST
    the issue of personality politics in relation to herself and her voters:

    I want you to ask yourselves: Were you in this campaign just for me? Or were you in it for that young Marine and others like him? Were you in it for that mom struggling with cancer while raising her kids? Were you in it for that boy and his mom surviving on the minimum wage? Were you in it for all the people in this country who feel invisible?

    That in a nutshell is why we're Democrats.

    Exactly (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:54:53 AM EST
    So the question remains (5.00 / 14) (#26)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:12 AM EST
    Were Obama supporters in it for those things or just in it to defeat Clinton???

    That is a qustion Obama now must ask of his supporters to unite the party.


    Parent

    Ahhh. Good reverse analysis. Thanks. (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:54 AM EST
    But to look deeper into this ... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:21:22 AM EST
    analysis we must ask ourselves:  Who ultimately pays the price if you don't support Obama?

    Is it Obama or the invisible people Hillary refers to?

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:35:16 AM EST
    No one can win this election for Obama.

    We can help him, if he lets us.  But if Obama won't let people help him, like the Clintons are trying to do (You're a Democrat - act like one!) and he shakes us off, then he's on his own.

    Parent

    Again, don't get lost in the ... (none / 0) (#214)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:11:24 AM EST
    personality politics.

    You and I might survive a McCain presidency.

    But there are others who won't.

    Or as Biden might put it:

    "Who literally won't."

    ;)

    There are things that even the worst Democrat president will do that a Republican never will.

    It may be a thin reed on which to base a vote.  But it may be all we have.

    Do we react to Obama's pettiness by being petty ourselves, or do we think of the people (however few) who will benefit from an Obama presidency but won't benefit from a McCain one?
     

    Parent

    there are those of us who believe (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    those invisible people might be helped more in the long run by not letting the Obama brigades take over the party.
    you could believe that too could be true and still agree every word Hillary said

    Parent
    At least (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by standingup on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:53 AM EST
    one question we won't have to ask the press.  The answer to their feelings about the Clintons could not be more obvious.  


    Parent
    A very fair question (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:03:55 AM EST
    Wow (none / 0) (#140)
    by justonevoice on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:41:45 AM EST
    You could knock me over with a feather with THAT post!

    Parent
    We've been taught as dems that (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:16:11 AM EST
    dems help their fellow men/women/children. She is the very definition of a democrat. He, on the other hand, has blurred so many lines between the two parties, god-liked himself to everyone, and somewhere he lost the dem. message.

    Parent
    that is (2.00 / 1) (#108)
    by pennypacker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:31:01 AM EST
    delusional...he has an extremely progressive record and his voting record is more progressive then hers.

    Parent
    FISA (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:39:01 AM EST
    But hey, who needs all those civil rights anyway?

    Parent
    not really progressive at all (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by befuddledvoter on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:21 AM EST
    Have you ever seen Obama's record in the state legislature.  I would not call that progressive.

    Parent
    And the answer to that question if the person is (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:46:21 AM EST
    Obama???

    How would many Obama supporters respond to the questions Hillary posed? I don't think he could askd that question of his followers, nor would he want to. He does not want to depend on people who share Democractic Party values--he wants people who have "seen the light."

    If the young Obama delegate I just heart on WNYC were asked that question, she would say the person. Her idea of what the Dems stand for is hope for the future and hope for change.

    Parent

    Supporter now on WNYC saying Obama sees the (none / 0) (#158)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:48:35 AM EST
    Democratic Party as not a party of "special interests," but of "universal interests." OKaaaaaay. Getting into the 4th and 5th dimensions here?

    ObamaNation becomes ObamaUniverse!


    Parent

    She struck a remarkable balance (5.00 / 7) (#10)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 09:54:13 AM EST
    She supported the Democratic nominee, strongly, forcefully, but did not look weak in doing so. It isn't easy to concede that you lost without looking defeated. And she did it by focusing on the Democratic values for which we all need to fight, including Sen. Obama.

    She threw down the gauntlet to her supporters, and to Sen. Obama and his supporters too.  Very well done indeed.

    TPM (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by ding7777 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:04:03 AM EST
    posted 2 emails this morning.

    The 1st is from a former Hillary supporter who will now support Obama but noted Obama's lack of "voltage", "fire-in-the-belly", fighting Dem spitit.

    Then Josh posted a reply from an Obama supporter stating Obama can't be "an angry firebrand" Dem candidate because Obama is black and the country is white.

    IMO, the Obama supporter is missing the point: Obama is losing the Democratic base, the very people who will support him because he is black, by being a milquetoast.

     

    That's a new one (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    Obama supposedly can't running a winning campaign because America is racist. heh.

    Parent
    And If You Believe That (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by BDB on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:09:05 AM EST
    then why would you have supported him in the primaries?  Nobility is nice and everything, but I would think after eight years of Bush, winning would be the top priority.


    Parent
    Piffle. (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:21 AM EST
    A winning narrative would be that Obama is such a great candidate that even the racists can't keep him down.  He is just that awesome!  

    (not my opinion - just speculation)

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#203)
    by Lahdee on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:05:52 AM EST
    funniest line all morning, (not my opinion - just speculation)

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 6) (#62)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:12:21 AM EST
    I don't think anyone is demanding that Obama start going around giving speeches like Dennis Kucinich's from yesterday (did folks see it?  it was a lot of fun!).  This is not about being "angry."

    Hillary gave a great, fiery, partisan speech last night.  But I saw a comment from a conservative Democrat who said you know, what I liked best about that speech was how she framed it in a spirit of optimism, of American exceptionalism that I don't hear from enough Democrats these days.  Which I think was valid.  So you can definitely give a passionate speech without coming across as negative or angry, if you do it right.

    Parent

    I think this is why (none / 0) (#146)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:44:20 AM EST
    So many people like Obama.  Many of hear that optimism.  

    Parent
    Yeh. Women don't face that (5.00 / 7) (#89)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:20:54 AM EST
    problem every day if we're assertive.  We get called aggressive, for the nicest term for it.  You can fill in the blanks for other terms like b_tch, b_all b_uster, etc.  

    Yet somehow, Clinton surmounted that problem in the primaries sufficient to win the most votes, and she surmounted that problem again last night.

    So it would seem that rather than the wringing of hands, Obama's supporters could expect that the best candidate ever knows how to do it.  And he was watching last night, so he saw again how to do it. If what the comment is saying is that he won't do it, that's another matter.  

    Every minority leader and every woman leader and a lot of others have faced this, and the winners have dealt with it well.  This really is not entirely uncharted territory.:-)

    Parent

    If Obama cannot be a firebrand (5.00 / 4) (#128)
    by Landulph on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:38:47 AM EST
    because of his ethnicity, then he should never have been the nominee. PERIOD. Do these people even bother to think about the implications of theie statements? Do they want to win and to effect progressive change, or do they want to pat themselves on the back and say (pace Bowers) "Wow, we nominated the black guy!"

    Parent
    That's been my feeling all along (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:51:39 AM EST
    We know there is racism in this country.  The Republicans have been using it to win elections for years. If the Dems don't think they can overcome it this time around, they are nominating the wrong guy.

    Personally, I don't think Obama has to be an angry firebrand to win.  Hillary did not come across angry last night at all, and still got the message across. But if he refuses to be a partisan Dem, he really limits his options.

    Parent

    We could cure Obama (none / 0) (#59)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:22 AM EST
    with a few lessons from Gov. Schweitzer.

    Now THAT is file-in-the-belly.

    Parent

    Oooh, (none / 0) (#72)
    by sleepwalker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:36 AM EST
    that's got to hurt! Fingernail or hardened steel?

    Parent
    Nice catch (none / 0) (#88)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:20:52 AM EST
    guess I should proofread.  In my defense, I celebrated Hillary's speech a little too much last night and am a little bleary-eyed.

    Parent
    that writer is nuts (none / 0) (#106)
    by dws3665 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:30:27 AM EST
    He absolutely did NOT have the audience from the get-go. The first several minutes of his speech were painful to watch for his obvious level of discomfort. He got better as he went, and when he exhorted the crowd to stand up.

    Parent
    At about the 5 minute mark (none / 0) (#117)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:33:55 AM EST
    is when he got going.

    Parent
    I dunno (none / 0) (#125)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:37:09 AM EST
    I was tuning out most of the speeches, but he had me at "I'm a rancher."

    Parent
    maybe (none / 0) (#138)
    by dws3665 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:52 AM EST
    I had a hard time getting past his resemblance to Tom Arnold, but I did like that he could get the crowd going after the dullsville and uninspiring other speeches (Warner was only okay, imo).

    Parent
    I found him very endearing (none / 0) (#148)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:44:58 AM EST
    The thing that I most like (none / 0) (#152)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:46:19 AM EST
    was his look.  He had that unbuttoned shirt and a bolo tie.  In my world, that is a ridiculous way to go on stage on national television.  But this is America, so why not?  I love how he mixes that pro-American rah rah stuff with Democratic values.  It isn't something you see much of.

    Parent
    I'd like to have a beer with Schweitzer (none / 0) (#163)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:17 AM EST
    and I don't even like beer.

    But isn't that still the big test with the populi?

    This is not a guy who would offer a wine spritzer.:-)

    Parent

    We'll See (5.00 / 7) (#46)
    by BDB on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:07:59 AM EST
    I still think there's a 50% chance Obama and the party leaders will p+ss it away by going back to the politics of personality and by continuing to care more about sticking it to Clinton and her supporters than by winning them over.  If they do that, then Clinton  hurt them last night by highlighting their pettiness (which is not a quality most people want in a leader).

    The one thing that is quite clear is that if Pelosi, Dean, Brazile, Obama, et al, thought that this would be Hillary Clinton's swan song, they're the ones that need to get over it.  Barring some unexpected event, she's going to be a player in national politics for the next decade and they can either accept that and have a good chance of Obama winning the WH or they can fight it and give McCain a real chance.  Based on past performance I'm not at all sure they'll choose the latter.

    I think your probability is optimistic (none / 0) (#82)
    by BrianJ on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:19:00 AM EST
    They think that Hillary Clinton is the past.  If she is partisan, therefore, they MUST NOT BE.

    Since there's no open thread at the moment, I also wanted to bring attention to the track of Tropical Storm (soon to be Hurricane) Gustav:

    http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at2.shtml?5day#contents

    That's right:  The GOoPer convention could be held in the midst of Katrina II.

    Parent

    It was the right approach (5.00 / 7) (#48)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:08:30 AM EST
    People who are drawn to and inspired personally by Obama as a leader are already on board.

    The way you sell Obama to people who are not yet convinced that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread is not to insist that yes, he really is that awesome.  It is to emphasize the fact that he represents values and issues that are bigger than just himself.

    If people want a hagiography then whatever, they can bring the Chicago City Clerk back on stage.  But cult of personality politics only get you so far, and that's why Hillary correctly put the focus back on the issues and the principles that the Democratic Party stands for.

    This seems obvious to me (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:13:42 AM EST
    Some pundits can not get their head out of the freak show.

    Parent
    It seems pretty obvious that (none / 0) (#83)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:19:33 AM EST
    along with the Obama people convincing non-believers that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread according to them, is for Obama to convince people he is a true dem, willing to work with the other side, compromise where appropriate. But he comes across as GWB3 in his leanings, temperment, votes, rheteric, etc. Why should anyone believe him?

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:28:29 AM EST
    Sometimes Obama sounds like a good Dem to me, other times he sounds like Bland Unity Guy.

    The reason I vote for him is that, even though I fear he may not be enough of a fighter to push through a Democratic agenda, my fears might be wrong.  Certainly I've been wrong about things before.  And I know I'm not getting anything good from the other guy.

    Parent

    Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by JThomas on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:10:00 AM EST
    made me proud to be a democrat last nite. It is the party of all americans,not just the wealthy and intolerant. She knows the stakes in November. She knows that over 2500 young men and women have perished in Iraq since the last election in a war that was based on deceiving the american people as Suskind's book exposes.
    She knows that we still have 150,000 of those patiots,like my son, still in Iraq,sitting ducks if an imperialist like McCain attacks Iran.
    Hillary has been to Walter Reed where the limbless young people valiantly try to piece their lives back together. She gets it. McCain cannot be handed the keys to the kingdom with Norman Podhertz of the American Enterprise Institiute,one of his closest foreign policy advisors, whispering neo-con ideals in his ear.
    As Buchanan himself said '' John McCain will make Dick Cheney look like Ghandi''.

    Thanks, Hillary.

    Hillary made me proud last night too, (5.00 / 8) (#69)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:14:31 AM EST
    but not proud to be a democrat. There are too few of her kind in the democratic party.

    Parent
    Took the words out of my mouth (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by angie on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:21:07 AM EST
    In fact, everything you've written in this thread "took the words out of my mouth" -- If I could rate you 10s I would.


    Parent
    True - after watching some of the other speeches (none / 0) (#180)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:56:11 AM EST
    I was having my doubts.

    Parent
    To look at it a bit differently (5.00 / 10) (#63)
    by suskin on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:12:42 AM EST
    but to arrive at the same conclusion, Hillary knew that many of her supporters cannot support the man - BO - so she asked them to support the ideals and progressive positions that the Democratic Party supports.  She out smarted the pundits and the Obamocrats - for their own good - because she is a dedicated party player who is deeply committed to those ideals and issues.  

    Problem was, in doing such a magnificent job, she drew a contrast between herself and the man she was asking us to support, and raised once again the question we are all asking ourselves - how did we end up with such an unqualified, ill-prepared and questionable candidate when we could have had her.


    Can I rate your comment a 10? (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by abfabdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:38:37 AM EST
    The woman interviewed last night who was sobbing with despair that Hillary was not the nominee articulated what many of us are experiencing.  What an awesome President she would have been!!

    Parent
    A clear challenge to Obama (5.00 / 14) (#78)
    by herb the verb on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:16:52 AM EST
    I posted this at Corrente:

    So what did she do? Well, she came damn, damn close to getting my wife and I to drink the koolaid. Masterfully done to talk about all of the people she had met who were suffering and to challenge her supporters to think of them over thinking of her. But more importantly, she challenged OBAMA to run for those people too. This was every bit the challenge to Obama as it was to her supporters. I don't think that really sunk in at the time due to her very artful use of emotion in that appeal, and her very forceful statements of belief in Obama carrying her goals forward. It will sink in though. The premise for her appeal to support Obama is that he WILL fight for those Democratic values that SHE based her presidential bid on. If he doesn't, if he continues to mouth mealy platitudes, the entire premise of her appeal is GONE.

    Obama got what he asked for, the best possible, the strongest possible appeal from Clinton to her supporters and voters to unite behind Obama. I think it is going to dawn on him that he may not have wanted what he asked for.

    I also posted this separately, the kicker:

    Sometimes the key line is the speech is not necessarily the most powerful or most memorable line.

    This is the key line said after she runs through the very powerful (and very Democratic) list of why she ran:

    "Those are the reasons I ran for President. Those are the reasons I support Barack Obama. And those are the reasons you should too."

    Basically, if he does not follow through on those "reasons", you have no "reason" to vote for Obama. Plus, throughout she emphasized fighting for those reasons, that it will be hard work, that it will require pushing through adversity and against rabid opposition.

    Brilliant, effective, powerful. The ball is indeed in Obama's court now.



    That's a good point (5.00 / 4) (#84)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:19:37 AM EST
    Bill Clinton will futher challenge him (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by herb the verb on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:33:15 AM EST
    Watch for that. He will give a typically brilliant, cogent, accessible argument for why we need a DEMOCRAT fighting for DEMOCRATIC values in the White House. He won't be talking about Obama's wonderful character or judgement, he will be talking about him as a strong leader of the Democratic party and advocate for Democratic ideals.
    Bill may or may not be as powerful as Hillary (she really did lay down a marker), but only Obama himself will give a more important speech this week than either of the Clintons.

    And everybody knows it, sorry Joe.

    Parent

    I hope he does (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:39:25 AM EST
    Hope for the best (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by lambert on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:02:13 AM EST
    Plan for the worst.

    Parent
    Nothing else he CAN do (none / 0) (#213)
    by herb the verb on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:11:00 AM EST
    There is nothing Bill Clinton can do tonight except be an advocate for the Democratic party, Democratic ideals, and Barack Obama in that role as the leader of the party.

    I don't think Obama really understands what that means yet. He is the LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. Because of that he cannot by definition be post-partisan. Bill Clinton is going to explain it to him tonight, in front of the entire Democratic party and in front of most of the free world which has televisions. He will explain what Democrats have always stood for, how Democrats are better than Republicans, and what Democrats will do to improve our future.

    The only variables are how the Village will take it and what Obama will do Thursday in response. This is a battle for the soul of the party, or rather, whether the party will have a soul or not. The ball is in Obama's court after tonight, is he up to the challenge?

    Parent

    After reading your post (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:55:00 AM EST
    I think that regardless of what Obama does or doesn't do, we have a voice in the Democratic Party. I know she'll use it too.  I am comforted by that.

    Parent
    I liked the sense of history... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by EL seattle on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:30:54 AM EST
    ... that I thought filled Clinton's speech.  

    Not just personal history, or recent history, but call outs to the founders and pioneers of the principles that became the core of the democratic party.

    I sometimes get the feeling that the new "progressive" movement wants to think that everything good's only been invented in the since PC's and Mac's came along, and old stuff like unions aren't really worth spending time talking about.

    (This is why I hope that if Springsteen gives the closing concert, he doesn't do a greatest hits show, but  brings on something from the Seeger Sessions project.  That's the sort of history that I think that Clinton was channeling last night.  In my opinion, anyway.)

    I liked that, too. Except that (5.00 / 5) (#134)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:28 AM EST
    I beg to differ on one point.  Women's rights, re that portion of her wonderful history lesson, never have become part of the core of either party.  

    Women's rights have been part of the political calculations of both parties at different points in history.  But that is different.*  

    And we now see the result of treating the rights of the majority of Democratic voters, by far, as a political caulcation rather than a core value.

    *For just one example, the one to which she spoke, woman suffrage never was part of the Democratic platform -- and only was part of the political calculations pre-1920, and especially in 1916 when millions of women already voted, only because of that.

    Parent

    I heard this morning that The Boss (none / 0) (#161)
    by americanincanada on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:10 AM EST
    is not playing the convention and never had any intention of doing so.

    LINK

    Parent

    Makes sense, with his schedule. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    as I've been saying here.  So eat your hearts out, conventioneers.  Looks like I'll be the one to see The Boss again.  (Yep, there may be one of the hottest tickets in my town coming my way for this weekend. . . .:-)

    Weird, though, these sorts of wrong leaks from the Obama camp throughout the primaries, too.  Or from the Republicans trying to mix it up again.

    Parent

    Confirmed via Armbinder (none / 0) (#179)
    by americanincanada on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:55:52 AM EST
    An Obama aide e-mails: "Since there have been some inaccurate reports out there, wanted to make sure you knew that Bruce Springsteen will not, in fact, be performing at the convention."  An accompanying statement from Springsteen's manager, Jon Landeau: "Bruce has been and continues to be an ardent supporter of Barack Obama's."

    Parent
    Hillary Clinton's speech last night was a (5.00 / 7) (#110)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:31:44 AM EST
    call to arms for people to remember what Democrats are supposed to be, what we care about, and that there are, indeed, stark differences between us and the GOP.

    The Obama campaign has deliberately blurred the lines between us and them, in an effort to appeal to voters who may be tired of the partisan fighting.  While I believe people do get tired of it, their frustration comes when nothing is getting done, not when a battle hard-fought results in positive movement, because, in their heart of hearts, they do want someone to fight for the issues they care about, not water them down to meaningless gruel that satisfies no one.

    You have only to listen to the crowd.  Say what you will about Kucinich, but his speech had the crowd roaring and on its feet.  Mark Warner?  Not so much.  The difference?  Kucinich wants to fight for the things Democrats believe in and Warner wants to hold hands and sing Kumbaya around the campfire.

    Kumbaya doesn't cut it.  Not now.  Not this year.  Hillary Clinton gets that, and it was clear in what she said, in the exhortations to the crowd; I have to believe that the roar of approval was not just for her, but for what she was saying.

    I think Joe Biden will continue to sharpen the lines that Hillary drew last night, and if he is smart, Barack Obama will ditch what I expect to be a quasi-religious spectacle at Invesco for a meat-and-potatoes, we-are-Democrats-and proud-of-it continuation of the call to arms.

    He could very well do that.  The question will be, does he mean it?  Will it be a repeat of leaning-left-to-win-the-nomination, followed by the really-more-comfortable-over-here-on-the-right president who will forget about us once he gets where he wants to be?

    I have no reason to trust him.  I have no reason to trust Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the rest of the people who will be steering the party and the country in their roles in the DNC and in the Congress.

    I am a real Democrat.  I am not brainless.  It is Obama and the party who need to show their loyalty to me, not the other way around.


    Not quite correct (none / 0) (#199)
    by lambert on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:04:20 AM EST
    You have every reason not to trust them. FISA, FISA, FISA.

    Parent
    What Anglachel wrote (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by MichaelGale on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:33:34 AM EST
    when I read that part of her post,..." what it was, from the first line to the last, was a full-force evocation of what it means to be a Democrat", I was joyful. I wanted to shout out YES.

    Also, I know I am not crazy, or too old or feeling like I have to catch up on some change if I want to stay a Democrat.

    I feel like something big and important but misplaced has been found.

     

    She brought home our Democratic values (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:43:56 AM EST
    She mentioned health care several times. You can tell she wants that fixed badly. That alone is a winning issue and yet, it is hardly mentioned anymore. When she went through her litany of Civil Rights to labor right to women's rights to Gay rights, and ending discrimination she included all Democrats. If you listen to her speech a few times you will realize she covered every Democratic base. From Global warming to deficit to Putin to Gas prices to the middle class. She ran the gambit of issues that are important to Democrats. She separated the difference from the GOP. We need to stop blurring the issues to gain GOP votes while throwing the Democratic values into the background. She reminded people that Bill fixed the economy before. And she threw down the challenge to Barrack to get that health care plan passed. She said everything that Obama should be saying. I hope he was listening.

    If Senator Clinton has to clear all obstacles (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by kateNC on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:46:55 AM EST
    from Obama's path, persuade millions of voters to cast their votes for Obama, make the argument as to why he'd be a good commander and chief, provide counter arguments for each and every slam at him, then it becomes clear:

    Obama needs a nanny to clear obstacles, pad sharp corners, bring all of the reluctant Democrats to his play group, prop him up as he learns to walk through the GOP minefield, and pat him on the head telling him what a smart young man he is, yes he is.

    Good gawd, the guy is running for president. Can't he do it without a Clinton nanny?

    I question any candidate that risk winning the GE (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by Saul on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:49:01 AM EST
    Obama IMO is taking a risk with Biden when there was no need to take this risk. He's irresponsibly  betting the farm  with his choice   Hilary had to speak last night solely to convince her supporters to vote for Obama.  This was not a speech that would have been necessary had he picked Hilary.   So not only did Hilary lose the nomination, she also had to go out of her way so Obama does not lose the GE.

    What does this say about Obama.  

    Obama does not support ideals (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Prabhata on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:51:42 AM EST
    that molded the present Democratic Party.  I wouldn't be surprised that Obama grew up in a home with Kansas Republican ideals. That's why I don't believe Obama. I don't trust Obama. I won't vote for Obama.

    I feel depressed and yet vindicated..... (5.00 / 4) (#170)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:52:58 AM EST
    ... time. I'm depressed that we can't as a party and a nation rise above the bs, spin, manipulation, and phoniness that surrounds our political discourse. But I feel vindicated that Hillary showed the world what it should mean to be a Democrat. When so many people cast doubts on your own perceptions any sane person has to begin to doubt their own judgment. The drumbeat of Clinton hate was getting to me. I wasn't going to change my views of Hillary, but I was changing my views of myself...thinking maybe that I was just a bitter dead ender that needed to be left behind for the sake of progress.

    But dangit, no. I was right. Hillary Clinton is a force for good. The more Obama embraces her the better off he will be. But here's where the depression kicks in: I don't think the Obama campaign even begins to know how to do this. So, my ultimate hope is that they just move beyond the Clinton's entirely. Mistakes were made. They can't be undone. Just learn this one thing from Hillary if nothing else: FIGHT.

    I realized last night (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:01:25 AM EST
    that Clinton sort of speaks like a football coach at halftime - this is what's going wrong, we're down 30 points, but we can do it.  

    She has given Obama a great opening to speak to Reagan Dems and place himself in the Democratic tradition.  I hope he does.

    The past state history still so blurry (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Missblu on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:05:19 AM EST
    I think things would be clearer for us in regard to his Democratic party soul if we knew the answers to these questions.  

    In his career as state representative, who were his closest associates and what were their roles in his political life?

    Did he regularly attend state Democratic meetings and functions?

    What were the five top issues he felt passionately about and what efforts did he make to obtain success with them?

    In reality did he tend to favor business over community ?

    Did he give time in campaigning for other Democratic candidates and loyally
    support them?  Did he ever sacrifice for another Dem?

    Anyone know?


    The problem for Democrats... (5.00 / 3) (#205)
    by bmc on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:06:13 AM EST
    Is that they dismissed Democrats, disenfranchised Democrats, cheated Democrats, and told Democrats to "stay home" in November when they supported Hillary Clinton with a majority of votes during the primary.

    Now, a large percentage of those Democrats know more about "what being a Democrat means" than they wanted to know. And, they aren't happy with the definition of "what being a Democrat means" anymore.

    Er. That would be me.

    So, while I am a sadder, wiser voter than I was in, say, the middle of May, 2008, I'm no longer a Democratic Party partisan. What "being a Democrat means" to me, doesn't include stealing delegates and awarding delegates to a candidate who wasn't even on the ballot. With that act, "what being a Democrat means" was cheating Democrats out of their best candidate.

    So, "what being a Democrat means" has different meanings for different Democrats. Those in the DNC have a different idea about it than I do. And, the fact that Hillary Clinton has been practically forced to grovel at the feet of Barack Obama to prop him up, just proves my point. That's not "what being a Democrat means" either.

    They want to "drill into our brains," according to Nancy Pelosi. Well, dismissing Democrats who question cheaters isn't what "being a Democrat means" to me.

     

    She expanded expectations of Obama... (5.00 / 3) (#210)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:08:59 AM EST
    by strongly advocating things he has not seriously approached, like rights for all, including gay rights; like truly universal health care; like never giving up - i.e., fight through Obama's campaign and presidency to make him "heel" to what being a Democrat really mneans....she stretched beyond his silly "post-partisanship" and I bet Bill will do the same tonight. She gave reality to Obama's vapid rhetoric and in the Senate she can hold him to it.

    Harriet Tubman - Hillary Clinton:

    "Time and trouble will tame an advanced young woman, but an advanced old woman is uncontrollable by any earthly force."
    - Dorothy Sayers

    O's only entitled to equal-oppt to ASK for my vote (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by Ellie on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:36:05 AM EST
    He nor anyone else, nor a party or organization or cause is entitled to that vote.

    He and his team, supporters and fans aren't entitled to demand to know my current plans about voting.

    If they assume my thoughts and feelings today or behind the future event of casting my vote, they're not entitled to bash me for that or their own speculations and strategies.

    Obama and Bob Casey Jr have exercised their choice to use their respective offices to deprive women and others of our choice to determine our own lives ... and live by the choices Obama and Bob Casey Jr have made for us.

    If Obama still doesn't understand the illegality, injustice and unconstitutional crime in all of the above, he's not only undeserving of the office but unfit to serve.

    He's told me in advance -- and I AM ENTITLED TO MAKE THIS DETERMINATION -- that he has no intention of honoring his oath of office to uphold and defend the Constitution.

    Sen Clinton helped clear away a lot of accumulated fog yesterday.

    The gaggle of Hillary Haters and micro-nitpicking media gossipmongers helped me rest even more easily about exercising the diminishing choices in my life.

    They made me realize I'm treating these matters with more consideration and respect than they've shown.

    Sen Clinton ASKED for my vote and with her words and actions gave me solid reasons to give her my support.

    Never again will I hold my nose and support a party and "my" elected representitives who'll just once again dump their responsibilities and befriend the enemies of my freedom.

    Sen Clinton is entitled like anyone else to ASK for it for herself or consider giving it to a colleague and she did that beyond reproach yesterday (though you'd never know it from the bobbleheads.)

    It's not that I won't accept a substitute for Sen Clinton but that I won't accept anyone less in public office.

    Yeah, she set the bar high, given the dismal state of "New" Politics, but her showing should be the everyday standard.

    From now on, it's my minimum. I deserve exactly that much: the best. Obama and the Dems still have time to bring their A-game to this "contest".

    If their offer seems to have merit, I'll be a Dem for a Day, but barring any big changes in the political landscape, I expect to be Independent for life.

    Obama's supporters aren't simply voters, they are (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by esmense on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:46:58 AM EST
    believers.

    And they don't want others anything less from others than that they be Obama believers -- your  vote isn't enough for them, they want your devotion.

    Hillary gave Democrats important, vital, pragmatic reasons to vote for Obama.

    But she didn't enumerate all the personal qualities and abstract reasons that inspire Obama's most dedicated supporters' belief in him. She also didn't acknowledge his superiority. In their minds he won the primary because he is a better, purer person than Hillary. And they want nothing less than for her to acknowledge that.

    Instead, she treated him as an important political figure -- the leader of the political party she is totally devoted to -- but not as a unique, special and transcedent human being.

    It was the right speech, but (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by pluege on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 01:47:07 PM EST
    180 degrees out from Obama's "lets all get along and reach across the aisle" shtick. What Obama does with that remains to be seen.

    The fact that Hillary had to explain (4.91 / 12) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:04:59 AM EST
    what it is to be a Democrat and she gets praise for that means that the Democratic Party as it stands now has become warped to the whims of a nominee who really doesn't accept its charter, and certainly feels no need to fight for it.

    The fighting for it question (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    is indeed open.

    Parent
    IMHO (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:19:58 AM EST
    If you aren't willing to fight for a cause -- especially as a politician whose job description is to fight for causes -- then you really have little interest or stake in that cause.

    Parent
    But you can be pushed to adopt it (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:25:21 AM EST
    Obama will be pushed IF we push him.

    Indeed, if you think about it, Hillary pushed him last night. Let's follow her example.

    Parent

    Voting for him anyway is (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:29:38 AM EST
    pushing him how? How do you suggest we push him, like Hillary pushed him?

    Parent
    Excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:44:11 AM EST
    If he is not President, then how do you propose to push McCain?

    Life is choices. The choice is Obama or McCain.

    You have to accept that fact.

    Parent

    BTD, we've had this discussion (none / 0) (#178)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:55:07 AM EST
    before. Are you proposing electing Obama because he's a democrat, no matter what, and try and "fix" him after he's in the White House? So we'll have a Obama as president with a do-nothing dem congress with no one being able to hold either of their feet to the fire and running wild. All we'd be able to do is to sit back and watch. McCain, on the other hand, other than it would be a divided gov't, is not much better or worse. If Obama keeps blurring the lines, it won't really matter anyway!

    Parent
    Do you think (5.00 / 4) (#105)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:30:07 AM EST
    Obama was pushed at all to reject FISA?  

    Doesn't seem to work well with him.

    Parent

    I like how she mentioned (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by abfabdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:34:28 AM EST
    he would sign her health care legislation. Woo-woo!

    Parent
    I'll believe that (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Nadai on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:04:32 AM EST
    when he's lifting the pen from the paper after signing.

    Parent
    Yes, that was great (none / 0) (#173)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:53:47 AM EST
    That is what I call pushing him.  We need to see a lot of that if he wins.

    Parent
    And our leverage will be...WHAT? once he's elected (none / 0) (#174)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:54:27 AM EST
    That's the problem--if we haven't been able to use our actual votes to gain some leverage over his policies, what makes us think progressive/lib Dems are going to have influence on him as prez?

    I did hear Hillary laying out issues she as a Dem senators will fight for strongly. But she can't make him fight for them, she can only remind people of what Dem values are.

    Parent

    I don't believe (none / 0) (#27)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:02:16 AM EST
    Obama will change his approach on the campaign. To do so would be an admission of error. It will be left up to the rest of the party to draw the division. (If he lets them)

    I think his speech will tell us of how he intends to win in Nov.

    It will also tell us how he will govern (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:11:00 AM EST
    The ability to admit error and to change course is sadly lacking in our current President. If Sen. Obama can grow as a candidate and adopt a strategy that better reflects the Democratic principles that Sen. Clinton laid out, it will tell me something very positive about how he would govern. If he stays on the same kumbaya path, that will tell me something different.

    Parent
    If Obama wants to win (4.50 / 2) (#47)
    by sleepwalker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    the election, he needs to cancel the Parthenon and Invesco Field, and sit down on a stool in front of the cameras and talk to us about what it means to him to be a Democrat. Otherwise, McCain's negative ad writes itself, and we walk away with the Obama Party candidate.

    Parent
    Just looking at his backdrop and (none / 0) (#91)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:21:18 AM EST
    podium at the site of his speech says alot about Obama and that his message will be the same. I hope he doesn't use that voice. Annoying to me as GWB's twang.

    Parent
    Obama is petty because he didn't choose Clinton?? (none / 0) (#67)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:14:08 AM EST
    Is it not the candidates choice to choose their running mate? Who is being petty here? Clinton would have made a great president, but that does not mean she would have been the ideal vice president. Hillary as VP would have played right into the republican hands.

    uhhhh, OK (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:15:45 AM EST
    Obama is being petty (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:18:48 AM EST
    The most important factor in choosing a VP candidate is who can help you win?

    This was a no brainer - Hillary  helped Obama the most. By far.

    It can only be ascribed to pettiness that he did not choose her.

    Parent

    And there (none / 0) (#119)
    by pennypacker on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:34:49 AM EST
    would be no problems with that ticket? With a former President as the vice-presidents spouse. Or a vice-president who thinks she should have won. (maybe correctly) There would have been a lot of problems with that ticket in terms of governing.

    Parent
    Yes, a true disaster (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:37:05 AM EST
    Having the most successful Democratic President since FDR around would be just terrible.

    Parent
    Look (5.00 / 4) (#130)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:39:01 AM EST
    You want to defend the choice, that is your perogative.

    I wrote plenty about it these past months.

    IF you think the problems you think Hillary would bring were more important than the positives, that is on you. I think only someone blinded by Clinton hate could come to that conclusion frankly.

    I ascribe it to pettiness in credit to Obama's intelligence.

    Parent

    It is not about Hillary! (none / 0) (#183)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:58:01 AM EST
    I believe she stated that fact more than once last night! It is about putting a democrat in the white house. And after a long primary we now have a capable nominee. Contray to your opinion I happen to admire Hillary and she holds a soft spot in my heart. I also admire barack and believe that at this time he is the right choice for the president of these United States.

    Parent
    See new polls even now (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by Cream City on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:47:29 AM EST
    at realclearpolitics.com on favorability ratings.  For one, Bill Clinton gets higher favorability ratings than Obama.

    So, no problem in terms of winning.  As for your argument about governing, it really is an anti-Obama argument that suggests he sure would have trouble dealing with the likes of Putin, if Obama fears having to deal with a former President.

    Even Bush has been able to cope with Carter going his own way.  And I really doubt that Bill Clinton would do so.  See the recent campaign and how it went after he saw the ridiculous reaction to anything he said.  He went off the radar -- and off to Africa.

    Parent

    Good point (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by eric on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:53:39 AM EST
    the reality is that Bill Clinton is an asset and should be celebrated.  The establishment media doesn't like him, and this view has been adopted by establishment Democrats.  Couple this with the kids in the Obama movement that don't remember the 90's, and you get this anti-Clinton movement that is detrimental to us and our chances of winning.

    Parent
    The pettiness isn't all his (none / 0) (#162)
    by blogtopus on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:50:15 AM EST
    You saw it in Michelle's face last night during this speech... she's not 'over it'.

    Parent
    you need to watch Michelle more!! (none / 0) (#190)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:59:36 AM EST
    Michelle Obama had same expression on her face when her brother spoke!

    Parent
    Did they show her face when her brother spoke? (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Maria Garcia on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:01:43 AM EST
    I thought she was backstage? Anyway, I don't remember. Just asking.

    Parent
    I don't think he's being petty. (none / 0) (#185)
    by steviez314 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:58:16 AM EST
    Clearly, Obama does not like the Clintons and would not relish the idea of governing with Hillary.

    That said, it's not just pettiness.  He's making a calculation:

    If I'm at 80% D's, I select Hillary and get +10% more, but may lose 10% Independents (who polls show did not favor HRC to the extent D's did)...so pretty much a wash.

    Maybe if I choose Biden, I can get 5-10% more D's, and maybe even get 5% more I's.  That's a gain.

    Now, his calculations may be way wrong, but I'm not sure I'd call that pettiness.

    Parent

    Choosing a candidate who (none / 0) (#93)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:22:25 AM EST
    won half the vote in the primary shows that you respect her voters.  Doing otherwise?

    Nuff said.

    Parent

    Winning 1/2 the votes more or less doesn't=vp (none / 0) (#103)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:29:32 AM EST
    There is certainly more to it than winning 1/2 the votes in the primary to qualify one for the vp. If that was the case hillary would be the vp nominee and November 4th would be locked up for the dems. I'm reading here that Obama is vindictive, petty and now utterly stupid?? It does not compute. Like it or not a Barack and Hillary ticket  would add too much baggage for them to carry. The republicans would eat that ticket up!

    your assertions do you no credit (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by dws3665 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:36:53 AM EST
    The point of picking a VP isn't to appeal to republicans, or to get the republicans to take it easy on the ticket. That's not going to happen, no matter who is on the top or bottom of the ticket.

    Obama has weaknesses as a candidate. Hillary shores up virtually all of them. It's really that simple. How the GOP would have responded to that ticket is with fear, but that is beside the point. The point is what would make Obama a better, more-likely-to-win candidate. And the answer is Hillary.

    Parent

    nor is it to placate the loser in a primary! (none / 0) (#154)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:46:39 AM EST
    Hillary obviously has a weakness as a candidate as well. Biden was not chosen to appeal to the republicans. He was chosen because he brings a lot to the ticket. As Hillary said it is time to move on and defeat McCain.

    Parent
    Indeed. (5.00 / 2) (#218)
    by Landulph on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    To wit, he brings Delaware's 3 EVs and a full head of plugs.

    Parent
    Please read Amendment 12 (none / 0) (#191)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    of the Constitution regarding the choice of vp. If we actually did it that way today, she would have been the veep!

    Parent
    And if she'd gotten more delegates she would be (none / 0) (#207)
    by irishdem on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:06:40 AM EST
    the nominee! I got it!

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:42:24 AM EST
    Sorry, your comment does not compute.

    You write "If that was the case hillary would be the vp nominee and November 4th would be locked up for the dems."

    Is SHOULD  be and WOULD be so IF Obama had picked Hillary.

    So you can attribute to stupidity or pettiness.

    I choose pettiness.

    Parent

    OT: Fox news is showing a tick (none / 0) (#122)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:36:21 AM EST
    that says Obama having second thoughts about Invesco field. They are going ahead with it anyway
    because at least they'll get text messages. That's whay this guy is saying!

    Seriously, they're getting cold feet about the (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by jawbone on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:13:11 AM EST
    stadium venue? Or about the Greek temple stage setting?

    Parent
    If they had to do it over (none / 0) (#136)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:40:36 AM EST
    They would not do it in Invesco, imo.

    But obviously it is too late.

    Parent

    Maybe they'll get lucky (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:44:39 AM EST
    and it will rain, forcing them back to the convention center....

    Parent
    Via Arthur Silber (5.00 / 3) (#169)
    by BDB on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:52:01 AM EST
    Here's what they have planned for Invesco:

    Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's big speech on Thursday night will be delivered from an elaborate columned stage resembling a miniature Greek temple.

    The stage, similar to structures used for rock concerts, has been set up at the 50-yard-line, the midpoint of Invesco Field, the stadium where the Denver Broncos' National Football League team plays.

    Some 80,000 supporters will see Obama appear from between plywood columns painted off-white, reminiscent of Washington's Capitol building or even the White House, to accept the party's nomination for president.

    He will stride out to a raised platform to a podium that can be raised from beneath the floor.

    [snip]

    Once Obama speaks, confetti will rain down on him and fireworks will be fired off from locations around the stadium wall.

    Democratic convention organizers said the theme for the evening is "Change We Can Believe In," which has been a consistent message of Obama's presidential campaign.

    Oscar-winning actress and singer Jennifer Hudson will sing the national anthem that night.

    Could not fit more into GOP framing if they tried.  This is part of  what I meant about p+ssing away all of Hillary's good work.   The venue is going to work against any Obama attempts to show himself a serious leader for a troubled time, but then the venue was Obama's choice.


    Parent

    Will a stripper pop out of a cake? (5.00 / 7) (#206)
    by lambert on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:06:19 AM EST
    Seems like that's the only thing that's missing.

    Parent
    Invesco (none / 0) (#149)
    by Angry Black Guy on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:45:07 AM EST
    I think it is a great idea. The key is that they have to stop letting McCain define what it means.

    Kennedy did it in a stadium for goodness sakes. It is the anniversary of the MLK speech. I have friends and family members flying to parties just to watch the speech on TV together.

    No, I think you're wrong. If Obama does this the right way (and the man has a way with words)and the press gives him a fair review, this could be a huge for the campaign.

    Does anyone remember another convention speech with this much buzz. Republicans who never watch the dem convention are tuning in just to see if what they've been hearing is true.

    That, IMHO, is exactly what Obama wants. He rarely fails to impress wants he gets you listening.

    Parent

    Just making the speech at this (none / 0) (#159)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:48:49 AM EST
    field might be okay to accommodate many, but all the glitz and staging is too much. We are at war and GWB was criticized at his 2004 for having parties after he won. We are paying for all this glitz. Our tax dollars at work and yet our bridges are falling!

    Parent
    This was a guy from Politico (none / 0) (#151)
    by zfran on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    talking about this. Also, the delegations will be down front and he will jettison to and fro from them (I sincerely  hope that is not what I heard!)

    Parent
    Here's the thing (none / 0) (#209)
    by Claw on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 11:08:22 AM EST
    It won't be gridlock.  It will be more making up euphamisms for war/torture, more terrible economics, and the continued destruction of our justice system.  

    It's pretty interesting (none / 0) (#222)
    by OldCity on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 12:18:57 PM EST
    That Obama supporters are charaterized as believers, but HRC's are just, you know, committed.

    BTD is right, as are many peolpe who seem to see the forest for the trees.  The Democrats should have the White House.  Since the only other option is a Republican, one would think the choice relatively clear.  

    Further, how in the world could HRC accept the VP nomination from a candidate she consistently called "unqualified" and not appear to be the world's biggest opportunist?  If one looks past the instant gratification and considers the attacks that would have immediately flown from the other side, Obama's decision makes sense.

    HRC is a smart politician and a pro.  She provided a clear justification for voting Obama.  Her really committed supporters can't have it both ways...they can't support her and then accuse her of being disingenuous to preserve her position.  She either is a reliable truth teller or not.  

    Choosing not to participate in the election, merely because you're not fond of the choices invalidates any future complaints you might make.  For example...if McCain gets elected and Congress fails to prevent him from succeeding with a conservative nomionee to the Court, what's the root cause?  It isn't McCain, or Congress...it's the failure of preventing the possibility of a nominee in the first place.    

    I've written before that a substantial number of Republicans actively despise McCain; despite his slavish support of the Bush agenda, he's not "conservative" enough.  But they're moving mountains to get him elected.  

    Isn't there a lesson there?      

    Tired and happy (none / 0) (#223)
    by Oceandweller on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 01:34:07 PM EST
    Tired because it took me all day to find this speech on the web as it was not shown or at ungodly hours on our side of the Thames , but very happy as Senator Clinton gave a smashing speech and proved that we still can count on our iron lady and this time a much likable one that Lady T.
    Hillary is really a great politician , and I am very proud of her and her great statesman of a husband...which brings me to my tiredness of this perpetual feud supposedly ongoing between Bill and Barry
    this man was applauding his wife praising his wife opponent and he was sincerely appreciative and approuving
    he was and is great so what is all the fuss about
    is it the press making a molehill out of a few and healed since ages bruises...
    is it that some people still cannont accept that real people and not robots not believers - hey people we are speaking politics here not religion please
    if I voted Brack, it is not because I despised Hillary it is not because I am a brain dead stark mad raving lunatic or because i BELIEVE bILL IS A RACIST
    no I just felt better with him than with her
    which is why we have long standing friends and we also have lovers
    my friends mean a world to me
    my lovers also
    my lovers have to make do with my friends they may not like
    my friends consider I could have done better and that he does not deserve me
    and we all care for each other
    Hillary and Barack are much smarter than us all
    and sometimes I THINK they deserve better people than us

    Obama isn't interested in what being a democrat (none / 0) (#225)
    by frenly on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 02:47:34 PM EST
    means, at least not from what I can tell.  His candidacy, in stark contrast to Clinton's speech last night, is really about electing him - not about forwarding the Democratic Party agenda.  That is what I see as the chief difference, and frankly that is what is most frightening to the old, now under the bus Democratic coalition, and even to those moderate Republicans who voted for Clinton in the 1990's.  It is not partisanship that scares people but demagogues, and Obama comes across to many people as being about him -- his supporters are worse.

    I cast my first vote in 1992 for Bill Clinton and have always voted democratic (except for a couple of votes for one of the few Republican congressmen who voted against Iraq).  This year I was dead set to vote for Clinton, or for any Democrat, for the reasons Clinton espoused last night.  However, since the end of the primaries what I have seen from the Obama campaign and from Obama himself has not been about those values, but about Obama.  Frankly I don't need to elect a messiah -- I already have one.  I became more and more troubled when I heard people endorse Obama not because of his values or experience or wisdom, but because he was a "symbol."

    That stuff works with latte liberals and AA's (which I am), but it sticks in the gut for other people and seems to be the epitome of affirmative action politics.  That is NOT how you win a national election.  Obama seems like someone who is using the party apparatus to build himself, not the country.  Thus he has recently alienated the far left of his base without gaining the moderate middle.  So he keeps asking Clinton to do it for him.  I'm rambling now, but my point is that when I listen to him, for all his rhetoric, I get the feeling that the election is about him, not me.

    Barack, Bill, and Hillary as Democrats to me (none / 0) (#226)
    by zvs888 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 at 05:22:50 PM EST
    To be honest, I know everyone likes to make a huge difference between the Clintons and Obama, but I think Bill and Barack are very similar whereas Hillary is very different.

    Bill put together his own machinery to get elected and govern how he wanted to on the issues that he wanted to favor, i.e. NAFTA etc.  The problem of course was that Gore didn't use Bill's tools to get elected.

    Obama is similar to Bill; he has his own positions on some things which are more centrist than liberal Democrat, but he is combining his machinery with the DNC's machinery (in Chicago which I think is a bad idea, the last thing he wants to do is stamp the DNC with a Chicago political brand). Even though I do think the whole "50 state strategy" of at least trying to pump voters out in every district (i.e. the south) is good for the long run, since the DNC will carry that forward even if Obama loses.

    Hillary is the most true Democrat of the three.  That speech she gave last night struck me as much as Kennedy's speech back in 1980.  He gave a defense of liberalism much in the same way that Hillary did last night.  The core themes struck me in the way that only a Democrat could see it as all of you did.

    In any case I'm going to support Obama simply because I think he'll govern like Bill (as much as I dislike that) even though I think Hillary would be a better choice.