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Recap of Obama-McCain Faith Forum

Our earlier thread on this is full. Here's a news article with a recap of Senators Barack Obama and John McCain's answers at tonight's faith forum.

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    If you missed it, you didn't miss much (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Practically Lactating on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 11:50:05 PM EST
    My takeaway is that McCain made some inroads in securing his base and I think his directness will be appreciated by moderates. I most definitely would not say the same thing for Obama.

    I was happy (none / 0) (#27)
    by Makarov on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:23:32 AM EST
    Obama didn't throw anything else under the bus, but he managed to do it. I honestly expected him to cave with federal funding and discrimination by faith-based organizations.

    [ Parent ]
    You're right (none / 0) (#48)
    by DemForever on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:46:08 AM EST
    You definitely would not say that about Obama

    [ Parent ]
    wise men? (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by AlSmith on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 11:51:53 PM EST
    I know I shouldnt look for logic in these candidate answers, but is that grandmother he listed as one of his three wisest people the same women he threw under the bus a couple of months ago?

    That answer was pander-fest for both candidates (none / 0) (#7)
    by catfish on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:00:06 AM EST
    though McCain's answer had substance in its pandering:
    Asked to name three wise people they would listen to, Obama named his wife, Michelle; his maternal grandmother, who lives in Hawaii; and, not limiting himself to only a third, named several Democratic and Republican lawmakers.

    McCain named Gen. David Petreaus, head of U.S. troops in Iraq; U.S. Rep. and veteran civil rights leader John Lewis, D-Ga.; and former eBay CEO Meg Whitman, a top adviser to his campaign.



    [ Parent ]
    I thought it was a great question because it isn't (5.00 / 9) (#20)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:17:42 AM EST
    something most people think a whole lot about -- and I thought the differences in their answers was interesting.  

    Obama picked two people who are personally close to him.  McCain picked a military guy, a black democrat Civil Rights leader, and a woman in business.  

    If McCain thought up those three people on the spot, props to him because he reached across the entire spectrum.  

    [ Parent ]

    Grace (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:23:51 AM EST
    do you have a blog?  I love the way you think!  Thanks for pointing out the more specific info on McCain's choices.

    Not that I would vote McCain but that was pretty smart of him do think of those people.

    That's the kinda thinking that wins elections.

    I think by picking Michelle that may bring into question her writings in college.  [I can see the GOP running an ad, "So, Obama thinks she's one of the smartest people, here's what she had to say while at Princeton...]

    ruh-roh!

    [ Parent ]

    How much smarts (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by lilburro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:27:15 AM EST
    do you think it takes to be Bush's military puppet?

    The political nature of whatever Michelle Obama wrote at college - PRINCETON, btw - should not be part of our political debate.  I hope the GOP isn't dumb enough to attack his wife.

    [ Parent ]

    wow (5.00 / 9) (#44)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:42:06 AM EST
    if you don't think that the GOP isn't going to attack Michelle Obama just ask Teresa Heinz Kerry and HILLARY Clinton about that.

    You CANNOT be that gullible.  Politics is a knife fight all the way.  Did you NOT see the TN GOP already go after her with the "For the first time in my adult life I am proud of America" statement?

    Just wait until after Labor Day.  THAT's when the goons will be let loose.

    [ Parent ]

    Unless Mrs. Obama goes out and (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by zfran on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:44:17 AM EST
    makes speeches, I hope the repubs.don't go after her. I think what she would say in a speech is fair game, but otherwise, they should leave her out of it. I think they have plenty of ammo for her husband.

    [ Parent ]
    Since she's the keynote speaker (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:47:02 AM EST
    on Monday night at the Dem convention, I think we can safely assume she'll be making speeches.

    [ Parent ]
    Michelle gives lots of speeches (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:27:50 AM EST
    She campaigns for her husband frequently.

    [ Parent ]
    But do you (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by lilburro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:59:00 AM EST
    really think the GOP should or will try to rifle through Michelle's college writings for dirt?  And that Obama just invited them to do so by calling her one of the smartest people he knows?

    And even McCain distanced himself from that TN ad.

    Michelle will obviously be held accountable for her stump speeches.  That's fine.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes I do (5.00 / 6) (#61)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:04:34 AM EST
    just like the R's started the false rumor about McCain's adopted daughter.

    If they can do that to one of their own, donchu think that MO will be a target?  They already have their sights set on her.  And her Princeton writings have been a subject of controversy.  Don't think for one minute that if the R's can wedge anything they will.

    The White House is about power.  The R's have had it for 7.5 years.  Doubt they are going to let it go without a knock-down drag out, Michelle Obama or whoever be da**ed.

    [ Parent ]

    I thought Michelle's (5.00 / 0) (#92)
    by lilburro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:42:51 AM EST
    writings at Princeton were about the experience of African Americans at Princeton.  

    If the Repubs would for some reason target that era of her life, I think we will have a full blown race-baiting campaign.  But, from reading descriptions of that thesis, it doesn't seem like there's anything particularly inflammatory there.

    [ Parent ]

    I heard (3.50 / 4) (#96)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 02:12:07 AM EST
    she wrote about all the racism at Princeton and attributed it to the reason she not liked at Princeton.  Apparently Princeton is filled with racists who didn't like Michelle.  

    I find that VERY hard to believe.  I've never met anyone from Princeton who was a racist.  Perhaps Michelle just wasn't very likeable and blamed it on racism.  That was my thought.  She doesn't always come across as warm and fuzzy, or even very likeable.  

    [ Parent ]

    Oh please. (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by lilburro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:02:37 AM EST
    Are you familiar with the concept of institutional racism?

    Politico:  MO's thesis

    No matter how many people you've met at Princeton, I am sure it doesn't compare to going to school with thousands of them at once, in a very elite, traditionally white environment, as a black woman.

    There is no question as to the reality of insitutional racism TODAY, and I am sure it was even greater in 1985, when Michelle Obama wrote her thesis.  That is what she is talking about when she says this - "Predominately white universities like Princeton are socially and academically designed to cater to the needs of the white students comprising the bulk of their enrollments."  And she is right.

    Or, maybe you're right, she was just lashing out about her own inability to be "warm" and "fuzzy" enough.  Even though her work is squarely in an insightful sociological tradition of writing on race relations.

    [ Parent ]

    My mom went to Princeton at the around the same (5.00 / 3) (#150)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:03:01 AM EST
    Time.  She went the first or second year that it let in women and she HATED IT.  Her parents didn't allow her to go to Harvard because it was too far away, so she had to stay there.  At the time (I have a couple of black friends that went there and enjoyed it) it was the SOUTHERN gentleman's school.

    [ Parent ]
    Well Obama felt free to rifle through (5.00 / 6) (#208)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:46:18 AM EST
    Hillary's college work -- are you saying you think the Republicans will be more circumspect?  Not to mention her defense, as a court-appointed attorney, of a rapist early in her career.

    Sure, that got short shrift here (on a defense lawyer's site) as it should, but not only was it all over the netrootz at the time, I still see it brought up elsewhere.

    Two things are really bothersome about Michelle -- the fact that the Obama campaign is happy to have her campaign for him but freak out when ever anybody criticizes her, and second, shouting unfair! unfair! when anything like this comes up.  Ok, so that isn't actually against Michelle, but about Obama's supporters, who think all's fair until it's their turn.

    [ Parent ]

    it might be a good idea then for (4.00 / 3) (#40)
    by hellothere on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:38:18 AM EST
    michelle not to say ugly things about the usa especially while campaigning for her husband to be president.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought Obama's (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:33:21 AM EST
    two female choices sounded like sentimental choices, not necessarily smart choices.

    I guess it's a question of judgment...  ;-)

    (No, I do not have a blog though I keep thinking I need to start one!)

    [ Parent ]

    I thought he was pandering (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:20:58 AM EST
    to his wife, when he gratuitously named her,

    and to the older women demographic that really doesn't support him, when he said his grandmother.

    If he hasn't met smarter, wiser people through his IVY League schooling, and political experiences, then he isn't mingling.


    [ Parent ]

    They may be a cut above everyone else, (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:27:37 AM EST
    but Obama's answer didn't really explain why they are which is where he missed the boat.  McCain was well scripted with a little context about each of his picks.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you are a fabulous blogger, Grace (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by bridget on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:29:22 AM EST
    one of my v. favorites here

    if you have the time and energy to start a blog, go for it. I'll visit :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely. And so was the choice of elderly, ill (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by esmense on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:56:09 AM EST
    Democratic lion, Teddy Kennedy.

    [ Parent ]
    Also, that 'cute' thing of theirs that she (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by andrys on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:19:31 AM EST
    puts him in his place won't play well to men worried about his being so 'pliable' - it's a tiresome thing anyway; it used to be followed by "I'm not a perfect man" but no one had been saying he was.

    [ Parent ]
    Had Obama mentioned Kurt Vonnegut and (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by bridget on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:24:03 AM EST
    Noam Chomsky and Tariq Ali

    I would vote for him.

    A Dream candidate he would be ... sigh

    [ Parent ]

    Your right McCain did have a lot of substance (4.00 / 3) (#116)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 07:20:05 AM EST
    His substance included:
    Life starts at conception
    Rich= 5 million
    Taxes bad


    [ Parent ]
    we don't want to know when life begins (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Fen on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 11:56:10 PM EST
    And it showed that he was humble enough to understand that he does not determine or know when human life begins.

    Does he extend that to SCOTUS? Is it above their pay grade too?

    He can't answer the question?  VERY lame answer.

    And its an easy answer - we don't know with 100% certainty when life begins. And evolved societies err on the side of caution when a human life is involved. But we do the reverse wrt abortion. Why?


    He clearly said he was pro choice (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by coigue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:03:52 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He's pro-choice in the context of what (5.00 / 17) (#26)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:21:52 AM EST
    he believes the right choices are, which is why he keeps attaching conditions and nuance to some of the more controversial aspects of abortion.

    That's not being pro-choice, sorry.

    Being pro-choice means that, regardless of what you believe, or what choice you would make, you respect the right of others to make their own choice, and you do not prevent them from doing so.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely (5.00 / 8) (#33)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:30:31 AM EST
    I may have a few here who disagree with me but I feel that choice is purely a woman's issue. Men like Obama and McCain, please.   I liked Ann Richards' view on family planning:  "Every child should be a wanted child."  The Clintons also offered sound advice:  "Abortions should be safe, rare and LEGAL."

    Men do not have to go through the physical and mental changes women go through to have a child.

    I read one time that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

    [ Parent ]

    Credit goes, I believe (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by oldpro on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:41:52 AM EST
    to Gloria Steinem.

    [ Parent ]
    Flo Kennedy (5.00 / 4) (#193)
    by Redshoes on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:26:21 AM EST
    said that to a taxi cab driver in Boston.  Not sure the story is true but certainly agree with the sentiment.  Of course if males bore children ....

    Second Dr. Molly ... and as to the issue of when does human life begin, why does it matter in the context of whether you believe an individual has the right to make decisions regarding their medical care or whether the state has the right to intervene and dictate that care?   Until the fetus can survive outside the womb (O'Connor's belief that technology will undo Roe) the reality is that an unborn, would-be child isn't viable until such a time.

    As for those who oppose the right to choose an abortion, ask yourself this question, kidney transplants pose less medical risk than pregnancy, should the state force citizens to donate their extra kidney?  It's not about what you believe morally or ethically but rather politically.  Do you want a regime where the power of the government dictates your medical care or do you instead believe that these decisions are better left to the conscience of the individual?

    [ Parent ]

    You're absolutely correct (5.00 / 6) (#200)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:33:30 AM EST
    Sometimes I get sucked into these 'when does life begin' arguments (probably because I can't stand the simplisticness and hypocrisy of those arguments), but I agree with you that it's a canard. What matters is an individual's right to make their own decisions. I agree completely with your entire comment.

    [ Parent ]
    I had a similar problem with his response on (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:40:24 AM EST
    stem cell research.  

    Obama said they were using embryoes that were going to be discarded.  He made it sound like it was no big deal because they were going to throw them out anyway!    

    Every right to life person knows that an embryo is an unborn child.  It's a fertilized egg just waiting to be implanted!  Discarding embryoes should be illegal!      

    [ Parent ]

    Further, the fundies have been (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:38:40 AM EST
    condidtioned to believe that they have a right to take those embryos - other people's embryos - and make "snowflake babies".  Obama should have pointed out that people using the fertility clinics once successful in having a child would choose to help advance life-saving medical treatments by donating their eggs and sperm to research facilities.  That is giving the gift of life potentially to millions of people around the world.

    Obama was supposed to be able to make this kind of broader humanitarian case to this Christian audience, but he kind of missed the boat a few times.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, another instance (none / 0) (#86)
    by SueBonnetSue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:30:35 AM EST
    Where I have no idea what he's saying.  

    [ Parent ]
    he has to say it like that (none / 0) (#93)
    by Fen on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:45:24 AM EST
    Obama said they were using embryoes that were going to be discarded.  He made it sound like it was no big deal because they were going to throw them out anyway!

    Proponents of stem cell research must remind the public that the embryoes are being "recycled" from other uses, instead of "harvested" for the sole purpose of research.

    Its a PR thing.

    [ Parent ]

    So I gather (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:46:50 AM EST
    You must be against in vitro fertilization and all those infertile evangelicals trying to get pregnant that way? Because during the process of IVF, which is HUGELY popular and profitable in all segments of society right now, thousands of fertilized eggs are thrown in the trash.

    [ Parent ]
    When does life begin? (5.00 / 14) (#10)
    by Upstart Crow on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:04:23 AM EST
    I'm with Erma Bombeck:  "When the kids leave home and the dog dies."

    [ Parent ]
    Pay Grade? (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by AlSmith on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:15:26 AM EST

    I saw that in one of the news reports.

    Man, that weasely "thats beyond my pay grade" answer had better be squelched by his advisers but fast. I can see hearing that from a bank teller but when you are president we dont want any measly excuses that you dont have enough authority or arent getting paid enough to be unpopular.

    [ Parent ]

    Why? (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 07:20:58 AM EST
    The answers to that are so obvious and so numerous that it is difficult to see why you would ask why.

    Because TWO lives are involved - and sometimes the health and wellbeing of one are in conflict with the other.

    Because people are sexually irresponsible and because the results of that -- unwanted pregnancies and unwanted children -- can be very bad.

    Because horrible things like rape and incest happen a lot, and most people are not OK gestating and giving birth to the results of that.

    I could go on all day with the reasons, but I'm quite sure you KNOW all these things but are pretending that you don't.

    [ Parent ]

    Molly, thanks for being honest (1.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Fen on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:46:27 AM EST
    The answers to that are so obvious and so numerous that it is difficult to see why you would ask why.

    To explain why we don't want to know the answer to the question.

    We know that birth control is not 100% effective. We know we're taking a risk. We CHOOSE to take that risk anyway. Then, if there is an "accident", we assert that our Liberty trumps a Life.

    We pretend that since there is uncertainty re when life begins, what we're doing isn't really murdering merely to maintain our lifestyle.

    With that in mind, its obvious that the last thing we want is to have that uncertainty removed - we don't want to know when life begins. We might have to make some uncomfortable changes in our lifestyle.  

    [ Parent ]

    I guess I don't totally see it that way... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:00:36 AM EST
    ...although I can understand that a definitive answer on when life begins from a scientific standpoint would influence a lot of people but for me it is more a fundamental question of when rights begin. If you are looking at life from a scientific standpoint, nature does not sanctify or raise human life above any other form of life. Humans abuse "life" on many, many levels every single day. So pinpointing when an embryo is a life doesn't seem to make that much difference to me because for me it is a matter of human rights and human law more than scientific law.

    [ Parent ]
    "maintain our lifestyle" (5.00 / 4) (#155)
    by Fabian on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:14:44 AM EST
    Yeah, I suppose if you think that every woman who gets pregnant has some theoretical "lifestyle" that makes sense.

    The question I have then, is if the current lifestyle is abject poverty and the next rung down is homelessness, then what?  What is in the best interest of woman and child?

    Or is this where people start asserting that "poor women shouldn't have sexual intercourse!" or that poor women are obligated to give up their babies because it would be "for the best"?

    I'm not sure where that leaves poor women.  I'd have to go with third class citizen since it's obviously a step down from second class citizen.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree completely with your premise (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:37:23 AM EST
    I don't think it has anything to do with NOT WANTING to know the answer to the question. I'm a pathetically overeducated biologist, and I can tell you that there is just no easy answer to the question - not because we don't want to know, but because it is complex. Every cell is alive, even viruses are alive by most definitions or life. The uncertainty about the question is not pretending, it is complex religious or philosophical question, not a simplistic one.

    Sex and mistakes are always going to happen. Apparently, rape is always going to happen too. There will always be unwanted and unintended pregnancies. I think Obama is right - try to reduce those as much as possible, but don't shame women and girls for decisions that are deeply complex sometimes involving medical issues, moral issues, sexual abuse issues, etc. That is none of anyone else's business.

    [ Parent ]

    Who's this 'we' of which you speak? (5.00 / 6) (#184)
    by Ellie on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:09:31 AM EST
    We pretend that since there is uncertainty re when life begins, what we're doing isn't really murdering merely to maintain our lifestyle.

    With that in mind, its obvious that the last thing we want is to have that uncertainty removed - we don't want to know when life begins. We might have to make some uncomfortable changes in our lifestyle.

    Well until you and the mouse in your pocket can show legal, ethical, medical or moral standing, what we do isn't your call nor your judgment to make.

    You'll also have to do better than your ridiculous, sweeping assumptions trivializing the choices people have to make in looking after their own and loved ones' well being.

    In the meantime, I'd wrangle an angry mob, head over to the Olympics and arrest every US athlete, female or male, as potential murderers and abetters just to fall hard on the right "side" of life.

    Training for elite athletic competition is a common cause of spontaneous abortion, expulsion of fertilized eggs and a big monkey wrench in the reproductive cycle.

    After that, I'd get to work on purging every pharmacy of OTC pharmaceuticals that endanger Raw Life everywhere along the reproductive chain.

    Following that, perhaps go after the barbers and manicurists ...

    [ Parent ]

    Because people are sexually irresponsible... (none / 0) (#157)
    by wasabi on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:15:57 AM EST
    I can attest to the fact that when people are sexually responsible, stuff happens.  Just ask me.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure (5.00 / 4) (#164)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:31:26 AM EST
    I hope that didn't come off as a judgment, I didn't intend it that way. Humans like sex, and they are going to have lots of it, and sometimes make mistakes or have accidents regarding birth control. I don't think that means they should be forced to bear unwanted children.

    What really gets me sometimes is the self-righteousness of the anti-choice crowd, especially men, because you just KNOW that many of these people had lots and lots of unprotected sex without a thought about the consequence. Stuff happens. We're only human.

    [ Parent ]

    wrong. (none / 0) (#12)
    by coigue on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:07:48 AM EST
    on both counts. Most current societies err on the side of profit.

    And with abortion, we err on the side of the party we KNOW is sentient.

    [ Parent ]

    You're just reinforcing my point (none / 0) (#32)
    by Fen on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:29:16 AM EST
    You admit that you aren't sure whether you are taking a human life. But you will continue to do it anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    So I take it you are against (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:33:44 AM EST
    all wars and the death penalty?

    [ Parent ]
    you can do better (none / 0) (#62)
    by Fen on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:05:45 AM EST
    Yes. I don't trust the State with the power to execute its citizens, even with "reasonable doubt" as a qualifer. And as a former Marine, I hate all wars and believe in ending them quickly and decisively.

    But why do you need to draw equivalence and invoke Tu Quoque? Its a simple question:

    you admit you aren't sure if you are taking a human life, so why do you continue to do it?

    [ Parent ]

    An answer (5.00 / 6) (#154)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:12:55 AM EST
    It only makes sense to define one as alive, when the being can survive in a non (directly) symbiotic relationship.  For humans that is when we have enough surfactant in our lungs to allow the child to to taken from the mother and survive.  That is about at week 24-26 (probably a bit later).

    And in fact, this is the relgious perspective of many Muslims and Jews throughout this world.

    [ Parent ]

    So you are a hypocrite after all. (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:40:42 AM EST
    I hate all wars and believe in ending them quickly and decisively.

    You don't mind killing people as long as it can be done quickly and decisively. Unless of course they are just zygotes, in which case its a mortal sin.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain can say the same things as Bush but (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by catfish on Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 11:57:48 PM EST
    make them seem a lot less infuriating. Eerie.

    It's probably the absence of the (5.00 / 9) (#39)
    by Anne on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:35:48 AM EST
    Beavis/Butthead personality, ya know?  The "heh-heh-heh" at the end of some of the things Bush says have never said "serious, thoughtful leader" as much as they said "development arrested at age 11 - complete with fondness for toilet talk and fart noises."

    Makes a difference.

    [ Parent ]

    grandfather. Ageism is an issue, but not in this. You expect your grandfather to say some cranky things that you must elect to ignore, because he's who he is.  When he says something stupid, you don't think grandpa is a dork he's just . . . beng grandpa, unlike the thought you have of someone your age saying the same stupid thing. For Boomers, he works because he is upholding their right to RULE, even as they hit retirement and have to step aside for 'those kids.' For younger people, who are eyeballing rather than listening with their forebrains, he does not come across as menacing to them or what is important to them, because they are sort of discounting that he really means it. If Obama said the same things at 47, they would be going bananas.

    [ Parent ]
    Didn't hear much of "sounding like (4.14 / 7) (#35)
    by zfran on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:32:01 AM EST
    Bush" What I heard was one candidate who hemmed and hawed alot, was mildly amusing, looked relaxed and gave convoluted answers to some of the questions. What I also heard was one candidate who looked at the audience, was quite amusing, very knowledgeable (altho' he went into more detail at times than was necessary), who seemed to answer some questions before they were posed, and who also looked relaxed. If you look at Obama's answer to the SCOTUS answer and hear his reply to his opinion of Roberts, I find his answer to be slightly different from what I've read about his vote (going to be against)for Roberts. Just one example.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't watch it (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:04:47 AM EST
    but according to this account:

    Obama said the most gut-wrenching decision of his life was to vote against the Iraq War. McCain said it was when he declined an offer to leave a prison camp in Vietnam.

    (emphasis mine)

    Did he misspeak..AGAIN on this issue? He was not in the Senate when that vote took place.. Did he misspeak..AGAIN or did he.....(lied?)

    I would like to add an poignant and superb comment on this by "Hope" at NoQuarter:

    I offer a little scrutiny to Obama's mis statement. If he had actually voted against the war..why does he now proffer that it would have been gut wrenching? Wasn't it supposed to have been his unfaultering, sound judgement that provided him the moral authority over Hillary and McCain for being the sole opponent to the war? He never appeared to have anguished about his [...] opinion at all


    That was my immediate thought as well (5.00 / 7) (#17)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:14:33 AM EST
    If he strongly believes in the wrongness of the war, why is it gut-wrenching to vote against it? The answer makes no sense.

    [ Parent ]
    Found a transcript (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:50:41 AM EST
    it seems OBAMA did NOT SAY he "VOTED" for the war.

    SO what I was told and what that paper I link to is reporting is wrong.

    This is what it says:

    In Part I of the transcript, Page 8, Obama says:

        I GUESS THE OTHER EXAMPLE FROM -- I'M NOT SURE THIS WAS A MORE OF A PARTISAN ISSUE, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING
    THAT I FELT VERY DEEPLY WAS WHEN I OPPOSED THE INITIAL
    DECISION TO GO INTO WAR IN IRAQ. THAT WAS A NOT A POPULAR VIEW AT THE TIME AND I WAS JUST STARTING MY CAMPAIGN FOR THE UNITED STATES SENATE AND I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ADVISED ME, YOU SHOULD BE CAUTIOUS. THIS IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

    on Page 12 of Part I of the transcript, Obama says :

     QUESTION: WHAT'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT -- LET ME ASK IT THIS WAY: WHAT'S THE MOST GUT WRENCHING DECISION YOU'VE EVER HAD TO MAKE AND HOW DID YOU PROCESS THAT, COME TO THAT DECISION?

    ANSWER: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE OPPOSITION TO THE WAR IN IRAQ WAS AS TOUGH A DECISION THAT I'VE HAD TO MAKE NOT ONLY BECAUSE THERE WERE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES BUT ALSO BECAUSE SADDAM HUSSIEM WAS A BAD PERSON AND THERE WAS NO DOUBT THAT HE MET AMERICA ILL, BUT I WAS FIRMLY CONVINCED



    [ Parent ]
    Hmmmm (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:56:41 AM EST
    Why would opposition to war be gut wrenching?  If he felt that the war in Iraq was wrong (as most of the Gore-voting public knew back in 2002) it shouldn't be gut-wrenching, it should be a NO-BRAINER.

    The evidence against Iraq was as thin as Obama's resume.  Couple that with Joe Wilson and others who were advising against the war, no guts should have been wrenching any where.

    Sorry but I don't buy it.  If a leader or someone who is running for higher office is to wage war, it is a categorical imperative.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you. (5.00 / 10) (#66)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:08:52 AM EST
    It wasn't even like he had to VOTE on it and send boys into battle!  He was just picking sides and giving speeches!  

    How will he ever, as President, handle actually having to decide whether to go to war or not when his hardest thing in the past was picking a side?

    I'm sorry, but that was a really bad answer.  It really shows that he is not ready to lead.  

    [ Parent ]

    that response (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:17:19 AM EST
    will probably be used against him in ads this fall.

    [ Parent ]
    the gut wrenching decision (4.70 / 10) (#104)
    by kimsaw on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:39:29 AM EST
    was which side of the fence would be most profitable to his political career. Gut wrenching because he was trying to get elected in "no war" majority district? He chose a safe harbor to bank on as he always does. "Present anyone"?

    [ Parent ]
    This is one issue that makes me not want (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:54:21 AM EST
    to vote for him -- and that is that he seems very indecisive.  We don't need a leader who is incapable of making decisions.  That would be a total disaster for this country since decisions have to be made.

    I don't believe his indecisiveness was as noticeable in the primaries since Axelrod and others appear to have been making most of the decisions.  But, if he gets elected, the buck stops with him.  It's not up to others to make decisions for him.  

    He says he has the judgment to lead -- but I want to know if he has the will to lead.  

    There are a lot of people in this world who have great judgment but they never do anything that signifies making progress towards goals.  They correctly assess situations but are paralyzed when it comes to actually doing things.  Some people are not good in a pinch.  They are not deadline driven.  They can't make decisions.  

    I have a hard time believing Obama's most gut wrenching decision in his lifetime was picking a side to be on concerning war.  Combine that with all of his "Present" votes and you have the very portrait of someone who is not going to make a great leader.  Leaders cannot be indecisive.      

    [ Parent ]

    I have to vote for him - I'm a Democrat, (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:09:30 AM EST
    BUT what really worries me is that a lot of people don't have to vote for him.  A lot of people will see this "thoughtful" thing as hesitance and indecision if he continues to under perform the way he did last night.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm a Democrat too! (5.00 / 11) (#132)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:32:53 AM EST
    I'd like to vote for him since I've voted for every Democrat for president since I registered to vote!  (And that was back in the 1970s!)

    For me, this is the first time in my lifetime that I have had such serious doubts about a candidate that I don't think I can vote for him.  

    Outside of Obama's wonderful speeches and the fact he's a Democrat, there isn't much I like about him.  He lacks experience.  He appears to be indecisive and lacking in personal convictions.  Away from the teleprompter, he appears to be marginal in answering questions and speaking about what he believes in (which leads me to believe, he doesn't hold very strong beliefs of his own).  

    I voted for Jimmy Carter and I've seen what voting for a weak candidate can do to the party for years to come.  I'm not willing to go through 10+ years of Republican rule just because Obama turns out to be another Jimmy Carter.  

    On top of that, I'm not happy about how Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, and others in the DNC forced the superdelegates to endorse Obama.  That's NOT the way the superdelegate system was set up to be.

    If the election were to be held today, I would not vote for Obama.  There is always a chance that he'll pick such an amazing VP that I'll end up voting for him -- but right now, just him alone, it's highly doubtful he'll get my vote.  

    On the flip side, McCain and I share hardly any social values.  I agree with him somewhat on the military and foreign policy.  He has personal convictions.  

    Since my state (California) is overwhelmingly blue, I can cast a vote for McCain in hopes of just getting McCain within shouting distance of Obama and sending a message to the DNC.  

    [ Parent ]

    As I said... (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:58:27 AM EST
    What worries me is that other people don't have to vote for Obama.

    Actually, there are two ways that he could blow even my vote - picking a Republican running mate or Colin Powell as VP.

    But having said that, I understand your reservations, respect them and even agree with them - except that I know John McCain is really a much more malevolent and erractic individual than most people realize - that's because I'm a Washingtonian - he has the distinction of being pretty much the only member of Congress that I know of who has numerous ex-staffers who dislike him so much that they actually talk about their extremely negative experiences with him openly and frankly.  That's pretty rare around these parts - especially for Republicans who are normally very discrete about their negative views of one of their own.  

    If you really are at all liberal or even only "moderate" in your views, you and John McCain have nothing in common.  He was in many ways a role model for Tom DeLay's army of extremists brought into primary out all of the Republican moderates in the early 90's.

    More and more, I think the Congressional Democratic Leadership latched onto Obama because they believed they could control him because he is so green.  They've really gambled with our chances in this race imo.  The fact that any Republican presidential candidate could be above 40% in the polls right now to me indicates that they've really gone out on a ledge right now.  At the end of the day, I don't think the DNC will need your protest vote to see the error of their ways.  I think there will be plenty of people who will choose McCain in earnest - enough to make this too close for comfort or even worse possibly enough for us to lose.

    [ Parent ]

    If I vote for McCain (5.00 / 10) (#163)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:26:05 AM EST
    it's a vote against the DNC plan.  

    I have a friend who lives in Washington who is high enough in his company to pal around with all the DC bigwigs.  He's told me before that they all hang out together so nothing surprises me much when I read it.

    No one has to vote for Obama.  YOUR vote belongs to YOU!!  You can vote for whoever you want to!!  

    I seriously think the Democrats screwed up this season but I think they'll figure that out in November.  I don't believe Obama can carry enough states to become President.  (He lost most of the states that are needed in the primaries.)  

    [ Parent ]

    My friend, (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:59:28 AM EST
    you have no sense of judgement if you agree with McCain on his military and foreign policy. McCain is as ideological a military hawk as they come. The NY Times
    article on how McCain started making a case to invade Iraq 6 months before Bush's WhiteHouse started doing the same is simply scary, it almost makes Bush look like a moderate. McCain is now once again ready to do an encore; this time he will get Russia involved.
    For all his tough talk regarding "rogue state rollback" and America's need to remove disparate regional troublemakers that were autocracies, McCain has always been surprisingly supportive of Pakistan's dictator, Musharaff (despite the fact that it is the only country that has exported nuclear technologies to various autocratic regimes in the world).

    Finally, it is a mistake to blame Jimmy Carter's "weakness" for subsequent Republican Presidencies (other than the 1980 election). Had Democrats not insisted on nominating ideological and non charismatic candidates like Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis, the history of American Presidencies in the last quarter century would have been different.

    [ Parent ]

    Only true if your career is not affected by (none / 0) (#203)
    by Christy1947 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:35:31 AM EST
    your very public choice. One of the problems of internet posting and progressive views generally is that the people who hold them are not taking life risks in exchange for doing so. So the guy in the Burger King will hoot at you. But you won't lose your job and your hopes and a lot of other things for holding that view, and what you can do to act on it in your internet lives is post a lot and perhaps go and picket or send money to a candidate. In McCarthy times, it could destroy your life to have progressive views, but these are not those times.

    [ Parent ]
    I have never seen a politician (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 05:31:23 AM EST
    More adeptly politically exploit a war in my lifetime.

    I was getting used to the idea.

    poor guy.  i feel sorry for him.


    [ Parent ]

    That;s better (4.76 / 13) (#55)
    by RalphB on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:55:08 AM EST
    but if that's as gut-wrenching as it gets for O, he's led a really charmed life.

    By the way, I don't believe what he said for a moment.  It was pure BS.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely. (5.00 / 6) (#99)
    by bridget on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 03:17:35 AM EST
    I second both of your comments - wholeheartedly.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama was representing an anti-war district (5.00 / 8) (#149)
    by andrys on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:01:49 AM EST
    gut-wrenching my foot.  I wish he wouldn't do that.  As soon as I hear something and think I can vote FOR him (rather than not vote at all), he does something like that -- just so he can point once again to his 'judgment' -- which by now we've seen is not anything to rave over.

      And we also heard that, beyond Michelle and his secluded grandmother, the wisest people he'd use for his administration are Sam Nunn (anti gays in the military) and Richard Lugar.

      Maybe while he reaches across the aisle in post-partisanship he could do the same with Clinton supporters like Wes Clark or Charle Rangel, with respect to his own party, but then he doesn't think in terms of the Democratic Party but talks only about his Movement.

      His own district was wholly anti-war.  No agony there.  He didn't run for U.S. Senate until the following year.  And he gave a speech that was so little thought of that there is no tape of it and no transcript (confirmed by Axelrod).  The speech we've seen in ads was re-enacted in a studio just for the ad.  For some reason his own version of the speech was taken off his website.

      As for the debate, I most liked his answer about Evil.

      Too thoughtful for that crowd though.

    [ Parent ]

    It was not taken off his website (none / 0) (#175)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 09:49:46 AM EST
    Where did you hear that?

    [ Parent ]
    He took the speech off his website in May of (5.00 / 4) (#186)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:14:31 AM EST
    2003 when he was running for the US Senate. Bruce Dixon of the Black Commentator called him on it at the time.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, I didn't realize andrys was talking about 2003 (none / 0) (#197)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:30:33 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    decide whether to take that risk and do what he did, or go along with the "You're with us or you're a traitor' crowd. And it was predictable that the 'with us or against us' crowd would indeed do their best to kill his career. Other people folded to the same pressure. It'll do as a gut wrenching choice.

    [ Parent ]
    It was a political answer..... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:31:54 AM EST
    ....but I guess that's par for the course. It was a political venue.

    [ Parent ]
    Can you give us a link to the transcript? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:03:34 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    All transcripts (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:07:55 AM EST
    here

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks tree !! (none / 0) (#79)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:25:05 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And now that you found the exact quote (none / 0) (#63)
    by mbuchel on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:07:25 AM EST
    What's the sound from everyone excited about another Obama "gaffe"?
    <crickets>...


    [ Parent ]
    If you look at the extended (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:12:14 AM EST
    quote it looks like he's trying to blur the line about his one speech against the war before he was in the Senate and his funding of the war until he started running for President.

     Probably not suitable for use in a McCain ad, but certainly not a strong clear answer.

    [ Parent ]

    Two major speeches actually (none / 0) (#74)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:15:05 AM EST
    Not that that matters.  Just happened to read it tonight.

    [ Parent ]
    Ooh, the lost speech. (5.00 / 13) (#78)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:23:52 AM EST
    Kind of like the lost album? I think "major" is a bit overboard as an adjective, since no one seems to have much noted the one at the time, and Obama had to "re-record" it later. And number two, if it exists, was even more obscure if we are just learning about it now.

    [ Parent ]
    You're just learning about it now (2.00 / 5) (#110)
    by robrecht on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 06:51:12 AM EST
    Presumably because one of Hillary's campaign themes was to denigrate Obama's opposition to the Iraq war by referring to his one speech.  It wasn't a lost speech, both were significant enough in the Chicago area--to be fair, Obama was only a state political figure at the time so a "major" speech to him at this point in his career shouldn't be judged by national standards.  He was only an Illinois state senator who had recently lost his bid for Congress.

    [ Parent ]
    Well that's the whole problem..... (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:38:48 AM EST
    ...with Obama for me. Your post underscores the fact that his resume is thin. Actually, I don't have a problem with that on its face. What I have a problem with is ramping up his experience as if it were more significant than it is. Frankly, I think the idealistic message of his campaign early on that it was a movement and yes we can has a lot more appeal than the cult of personality that it seems to have become.

    [ Parent ]
    I keep thinking back to the (5.00 / 10) (#140)
    by Grace on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:51:40 AM EST
    run up to the Iraq war.  

    I was posting on a small board then, with only a handful of posters.  Three of us were Democrats.  There was one Liberatarian and a few typical Republicans.  

    Of the three of us who were Democrats, one was born and raised in Europe and was married to a man in the military and she had a son in the military too.  

    All of us Democrats were against the war.  The issue started to get down to "supporting the troops" and the woman who had family in the military explained you could be against the war while still supporting the troops.  The Republicans disagreed.  The Libertarian thought the war would be over in a week or so and the Iraqis would greet us with flowers because we were liberators.  We were going to bring Democracy to Iraq.    

    Anyway, from what I remember, being a Democrat against the war was NOT a courageous or difficult position to take since MANY Democrats were against the war.  (I wish someone could get polling statistics from then.)  

    The only Democratic politicians I can imagine having a conflicted view is those who represented districts affected by 9/11 (like Hillary) because those Democrats in those areas were more gung ho on going to war.  

    Chicago was not affected by 9/11 except in the very broadest of measures (it was in the United States -- that's about as broad as you can get).  Obama was running for office and represented a liberal district.  It should have been very easy for him to speak out against war.  

    If anything, I think he would have had more problems if he had spoken FOR war given the liberal nature of his district.  

    [ Parent ]

    Grace (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:38:20 AM EST
    you nail it every time in your comments!! I love the way you think and write. I second the idea of  you starting a nice blog.

    I would be signing up first thing ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Not significant enough in the Chicago area (5.00 / 7) (#187)
    by Valhalla on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 10:21:05 AM EST
    to have been given much note by the Chicago media, however.

    He was a local politician giving a local speech in which he took a 'side' that was the same as his very anti-war district and the anti-war crowd he was talking to.  Not exactly Profiles in Courage.

    [ Parent ]

    It was a pat political answer (4.50 / 2) (#127)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 08:20:51 AM EST
    designed to play up his opposition to the war.  It felt forced to me - and the gaffe in there was right out of the gate where he talked about the political risk to him before anything else.  

    I would have counseled him to present that very differently.  I would have had him say, "At the time, the majority of the people and leaders in this country were convinced that invading Iraq was the right thing to do.  But I was not.  I felt it was my duty as an American to speak up.  My political career will never be more important that my country or the lives of those we send to fight for us."

    [ Parent ]

    Yes tree, I had (none / 0) (#80)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:26:12 AM EST
    the exact same impression.

    [ Parent ]
    I would HAVE (none / 0) (#22)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:19:37 AM EST
    to google/youtube that to believe it.  Man, that kind of statement is something the GOP could drive an 18 wheeler through.  Wonder how MoveOn and the Kos/HuffPo crowd would respond????

    OMYGOSH!

    [ Parent ]

    Haven't found a transcript (none / 0) (#34)
    by Andy08 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 12:30:33 AM EST
    I agree that we need the exact words he said...because it is hard to believe he could say this ...He wasn't even in the Senate then.

    Someone else that saw it wrote in disbelief about it. There is a link above to one news-site writing this in their article.

    [ Parent ]

    Here's a quote (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:01:04 AM EST
    from a transcript here.

    WHAT'S THE MOST SIGNIFICANT -- LET ME ASK IT THIS    WAY:  WHAT'S THE MOST GUT WRENCHING DECISION YOU'VE EVER HAD TO MAKE AND HOW DID YOU PROCESS THAT, COME TO THAT DECISION?

     A    WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE OPPOSITION TO THE WAR IN IRAQ WAS AS TOUGH A DECISION THAT I'VE HAD TO MAKE NOT ONLY BECAUSE THERE WERE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES BUT ALSO BECAUSE SADDAM HUSSIEM WAS A BAD PERSON AND THERE WAS NO DOUBT THAT HE MET AMERICA ILL, BUT I WAS FIRMLY CONVINCED                                                                            AT THE TIME THAT WE DID NOT HAVE STRONG EVIDENCE OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND THERE WERE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT AS I SPOKE TO EXPERTS KEPT ON COMING UP, DO WE KNOW HOW THE SHIITES AND THE SUNNIS AND THE KURDS ARE GOING TO GET ALONG IN A POST SADDAM SITUATION, WHAT'S OUR ASSESSMENT AS TO HOW THIS WILL AFFECT THE BATTLE AGAINST TERRORIST LIKE AL-QAEDA, HAVE WE FINISHED THE JOB IN
    AFGHANISTAN SO I AGONIZED OVER THAT AND I THINK QUESTIONS OF WAR AND PEACE GENERALLY ARE SO PROFOUND YOU KNOW WHEN YOU MEET THE TROOPS, THEY ARE 19, 20, 21-YEAR OLD KIDS AND YOU ARE PUTTING THEM INTO HARM'S WAY THERE IS A SOLEMN OBLIGATION THAT YOU DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THAT
    DECISION RIGHT.  AND NOW AS THE WAR WENT FORWARD, VERY DIFFICULT ABOUT HOW LONG DO YOU KEEP FUNDING THE WAR IF YOU STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT IT'S NOT AMERICA'S NATIONAL INTEREST AT THE SAME TIME YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE TROOPS WHO ARE OUT THERE WITHOUT THE EQUIPMENT THEY NEED.  SO THAT ALL THOSE QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THE WAR HAVE BEEN
    VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME.

    My apologies for the all-caps and the odd kerning. It was not an easy copy and paste.


    [ Parent ]

    Experts???? Bwahahahaha. (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by masslib on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:10:13 AM EST
    I'm sure experts were lining up to speak to an Illinois state senator.

    [ Parent ]
    I suspect that the only "experts" (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by tree on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:27:15 AM EST
    he consulted were consulted about whether his speech would advance his political career or not.

    [ Parent ]
    Rezko and Rev Wright (3.25 / 4) (#95)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Aug 17, 2008 at 01:46:02 AM EST
    THOSE were his experts.  Now, if FOX gets to mediate a debate they should ask, "Senator Obama, who were these experts you met with prior to the war?