Tom Foreman: The Soviet Union is long gone, but now there is a Cold War chill between the U.S. and Russia. With Russian tanks in Georgia and new threats over a U.S. missile shield in Poland things could suddenly get very hot, maybe. Joining me now Retired General Wesley Clark the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. Thanks so much for being here. I'm looking forward to our talk.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Tom.

Tom Foreman: Let me start off by asking you a basic question: For all of the concerns about Georgia, for all of the saber-rattling right now - you've been there and you've done that - how worried should we be about the relations between the U.S. and Russia right now?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think we should be very concerned and it's not just the U.S. and Russia. This is really about NATO. It's about the U.S. leadership role in Europe and how European countries respond to the United States. So, we need to be focusing on not just a U.S. - Russia bilateral relationship, but we need to be focusing on Transatlantic unity in- and using that Transatlantic unity to shape the behavior of Russia. That's one of the areas in which I think the administration has frankly not been as effective in the last seven years as it could've been, because there's been a lot of emphasis on U.S. unilateral relations with Russia and elsewhere and not enough emphasis on Transatlantic unity.

Tom Foreman: Even if we consider that though, what do we make of moves like this talk about the missile shield in Poland? Certainly the Russians say that is a direct slap at them over this problem in Georgia. Is it, to your read and is it a smart move?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well no, it's not a direct slap at them, and it's something that's been on the books for a long, long time. We've talked about this for a decade, and they've been consulted on it. They've met with it. They know what the capabilities of the system are. This is just an example of Russian rhetoric aimed at intimidating Europe. It doesn't intimidate the United States. But the United States' reaction then can either bring Europe together with the United States or we can chill the relations with Europe. So, we want to be careful. This, this is not something that the Russians have a right to respond on, and their response is unjustified. But on the other hand, we want to make sure our European allies all see it our way.

Tom Foreman: How do you read Putin's intentions right now when you look at Georgia and you look at his response to the rest of the Western world over issues like Iraq and Iran and oil supplies and everything?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Putin believes in re-establishing Russia's power. He wants Russia to be an important factor in every issue in the world. He'd like to regain the empire that Russia lost with the breakup of the Soviet Union. He'd love to see the reintegration of Ukraine. Belarus wants to be reintegrated. The Russians've put that on hold, because it's such a basket case. But with Ukraine and Belarus together, then the absorption of some of these other countries, he believes, that are on the periphery could happen, and Russia would once again be a, a much great- it'd be a superpower - unlike what it is today except through the nuclear capacity of course. And so, Georgia, in Putin's mind is probably the first step. They've long prepared Ossetia, South Ossetia and, and Abkhazia along with other areas on the periphery of Russia as, as, a-as grips into the near, what they call 'the near abroad'. This is a strategic crisis. It's been building for a long time. It just broke out into the open now, but we've seen its roots back more than a decade.

Tom Foreman: President Saakasvili in Georgia is blaming the West for making this breakout right now because, he said, the West entertained the idea of bringing Georgia into NATO, in which case NATO would've been bound to defend them against the Russians, but didn't bring them in. And that sort of poked Russia in the chest and made this happen. Do you buy his complaint that the West is to blame?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Not exactly. I think that, first of all, I've been, I've been very pleased to see NATO enlarge as it has over the last few years, but every, every step has to be carefully looked at. It has to have the, the backing of all NATO members, and there is some membership criteria that have to be met. One of those membership criteria incidentally is that all the territorial issues have to be resolved. they weren't resolved in the case of Georgia. The United States proposed Georgia for membership. The European allies asked some tough questions. It was decided that to give it a little bit more time. So, I don't think that the United States or NATO's responsible for this. But I do think that we could've seen this crisis coming. I think we should've worked for years to diffuse this and protect Georgia's claims on South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Russian encroachment.

Tom Foreman: H-how would you have done that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I would've insisted a neutral peacekeeping force, not Russian peacekeepers in the area and a real process of addressing the, the, the alleged grievances between Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Georgia.

Tom Foreman: Obviously, the, the Georgians are very concerned about the idea that the Russians are still there despite this agreement. If the Russians, Russians will not leave and will not leave quickly, what should be done?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what has to be done regardless is we've got to get the neutral observers in there. France first proposed this in the cease-fire agreement. I, I think it's absolutely essential. Barack Obama has called for it. We've got to have people on the ground. With all due respect to CNN (chuckles) and, and BBC, we got to have real observers in there who can tell us where the Russian forces are, what they're doing and help us serve as the link to say, to go right back to Moscow and say, say, 'Mr. President or Prime Minster, you said the forces were pulling out, but they've just moved to this village and that village. Get it stopped.' And you've got to have that kind of instant communication from the bottom to the top. That can't be done only through the news media. We've got to have observers in there. And then we've got to use our leverage - economic leverage, political leverage, legal leverage. Russia's done one heck of a lot of financial damage to Georgia. I think they should be held accountable. Take them tr-, to court. I mean, this is a, a world that has law. And we don't know what the economic consequences of this are, but they're profound. And I think Russia needs to leave the Georgian military equipment and bases - some of which were payed by the United States - leave them alone. They're no threat to Russia. Pull out and and pull out now.

Tom Foreman: Are we anywhere in ter- near talking about a military option in that country, or is that something way off in the future?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't think we're talking about a military option there. I'm glad to see a humanitarian airlift in there. I think that's great. But putting-

Tom Foreman: But we have a lot of talking to do between now and that sort of position.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Put, putting U.S. troops in there, i-it just doesn't make sense. It's not what- it's not necessary, and we just shouldn't be talking about this. What we really have to talk about is Transatlantic resolve. Russia has to behave as a responsible member of the international community. It's not behaving, and we need to call it on this bad behavior. And to call it, it takes the united resolve of all the nations of the West, not just the United States.

Tom Foreman: We'll have to see how it turns out. General Wesley Clark, thanks for joining us, as always.

For the record, I think Clark is absolutely wrong about this, particularly on what Russia's ambitions are. I see no reason for Russia to want to reabsorb Belarus or the Ukraine. Instead, I think Russia is interested in not allowing itself to be encircled by what it perceives to be a hostile alliance against it. But it is important to listen to what he has to say on this and other foreign policy issues.

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