home

The Politics of Contrast: Americans Believe It Is Time For New Deal Type Change

Barack Obama take notice - according to a new Greenberg poll (PDF), Americans are ready for REAL change (PDF), not post partisan unity schticks. Greenberg writes:

When asked to compare the current times and the types of solutions needed to deal with their problems to three other difficult eras – FDR’s “New Deal” era in the 1930s, the late 1970s and early 1980s when Reagan was elected, and the early 1990s of Bill Clinton – voters’ preferences are striking: By significant margins, voters believe Roosevelt’s times and solutions are more analogous to ours than Reagan’s, but that Reagan’s are closer to ours than Clinton’s. These feelings center largely around a desire to restore an American middle class that has declined steadily in recent decades.

More . . .

As a result, voters are open to bold policy prescriptions to restore the middle class, particularly a commitment to invest in quality middle class jobs. They rate a set of bold policy alternatives nearly as high as the actual proposals Barack Obama has advanced during the current campaign, and both sets of proposals prove equally effective in the vote against McCain. In short, there is strong support for a New Deal-style investment in infrastructure, energy and technology designed to create millions of quality middle class jobs and reinvigorate the economy.

(Emphasis supplied.) In the 90s, Bill Clinton governed in a different political environment and incrementalism was what was possible. Obama needs to wake up and realize that REAL transformative substantive change is what Americans crave. Obama needs to get with the program.

Barack Obama will be the next President of the United States. The question is what mandate will he bring for governance. He needs to run a bold, substantive campaign to gain the political mandate for the change America craves. "Changing politics" is not the change America craves. Changing GOVERNANCE and adoption of bold progressive policies is the change America craves.

Let's hope that Obama comes back from his Hawaii vacation ready to fight for the change America needs and wants. The country is ripe for it. Obama can win a sweeping landslide victory that will give him the mandate to REALLY CHANGE the nation, to REALLY be the change we have been waiting for. Let's hope he grabs this opportunity.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Celebrities | Turning a Solution Into a Problem >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    The problem has been that neither (5.00 / 17) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:30:50 AM EST
    obama nor the DNC is interested in this information...he is lacking in his ability to speak to issues and imo, seems to only be interested in winning.  He is no longer middle class and he doesn't appear interested in restoring it.

    Actually, Obama Will Help The Middle Class (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:48:52 PM EST
    If he can get elected and then if he sticks to his campaign promises.

    Like BTD suggests, Obama needs to market these ideas more aggressively because apparently people aren't hearing about this. (Like you.)

    CNN

    "His plan calls for short-term relief, such as a $500 tax credit per person to offset rising gas prices and an extension of unemployment benefits. He also wants to put in place longer-term measures, including a $10 billion infusion for state and local governments and a $150 billion investment in clean energy, both of which he says will spur job growth. Obama has suggested raising taxes on those earning more than $250,000 to pay for the policies.

    "The Illinois senator would raise the national minimum wage to $9.50 an hour, up from today's recently increased rate of $6.55, and index it to inflation. And he would advocate for stronger unionization by protecting workers' ability to bargain collectively and by appointing union-friendly officials to the National Labor Relations Board."

    Think Progress  

    "According to a non-partisan analysis of the presidential candidates' tax plans, Barack Obama "offers three times the break for middle class families" than proposals of John McCain, who "would steer the bulk of the benefits to the wealthiest families":

    "Families making between $37,595 and $66,354 of annual income with Obama would get an average tax cut of $1,042 per family while McCain's tax cut for this group would be $319, the report states."

    Parent

    No, you're not getting it. (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by dk on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    Great, so Obama's plan would give $700 more dollars to lower middle class families than McCain's plan would.  Don't get me wrong, I know that people can use the $700, but now we're getting back to gas tax holiday kind of stuff...and I thought that in Obamaland that kind of thing is evil.

    It is astonishing that someone could think that a candidate who won the primaries in large measure because he told young healthy people that they did not have to sacrifice one cent of their earnings even if it meant achieving the goal of universal healthcare would be in the mood to ask all of the American people for the kind of sacrifice that would bring about a second New Deal.

    Parent

    I Get It (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:12:48 PM EST
    I was responding to a post that stated Obama is uninterested in restoring the middle class. And I cited just two sets of his policy positions I was able to quick-google that disputes that.

    If you want to reduce it to Obama's tax relief plan putting seven hundred more dollars in the pockets of the lower middle class earner, go ahead. Myself, I think the increase and indexing of the federal minimum wage is a very welcome start. And criminally long overdue.

    Parent

    The policy positions are wonderful. (none / 0) (#149)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:47:34 PM EST
    However, I have never seen Obama DO anything that makes me believe this is aything but hype. How say you?

    Parent
    policy positions on campaign websites (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ford Prefect on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:52:37 PM EST
    You really dont seriously believe that policy positions/papers on campaign websites will eventually turn into real policies of either McCain or Obama admin, do you? Heck Obama's policy positions have already flipped from before primary to after primary situation and the promise to filibuster FISA went under the bus right after the primary. If you really believe you are getting a check from the govt based on either of their campaign website statements, then could you please buy a brand new recently painted bridge I have in Brooklyn? I will be happy to take $1042 for it.

    Once elected, if you ask Obama as to why he changed his mind, he would say he has had the same position of lower tax cuts all along, just that his opponents mischaracterized him or his campaign staff made a mistake (like he claimed in the case of IL independent voter questionniare he filed, in his handwriting). Not to say McCain would be any better. But at least I have seen McCain do some plaintalk and keep some commitments in the past. I dont have any evidence Obama has ever done any plaintalking and has any committed positions on anything. Evidence contrary to that would be great.


    Parent

    Politicians Are Politicians (5.00 / 0) (#126)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:16:57 PM EST
    First, these policy positions I posted were not from campaign web sites. They were (as indicated) from CNN and Think Progress.

    Second, I think Obama will be a better president than McCain. And infinitely better than the Current Occupant.

    He says what he says. Just like every other politician running for office in this country. The only way to prove he will or will not live up to his commitments is to elect him. And that's what I hope we'll do.


    Parent

    Sorry, pal, I can't AFFORD to elect him. (none / 0) (#133)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:40:44 PM EST
    Your Choice n/t (none / 0) (#138)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:18:25 PM EST
    That is faith based rather than reality based (none / 0) (#145)
    by Ford Prefect on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 06:15:33 PM EST
    No, I meant to say that whatever CNN and TP are commenting on is based on what Obama or McCain campaigns say "they will do" for tax policy. The question is if you believe those to become reality as they are?

    Your statement: "The only way to prove he will or will not live up to his commitments is to elect him"

    Not true and is not the way we judge applicants for any job on this planet. Let alone one of the most important jobs. When somebody promises to do certain things, you dont say well let me give you the job and see if you will do it. You look at the past history and see if they have always kept their promises and if they are qualified for the job. If you just look back to June you realize Obama just broke a promise fresh out of the primary. And changed positions on at least a few issues while pretending not to. That in my opinion was audacious changing positions before and after primary. That to me is saying to us "Look, you have no choice now. I can change my positions. What are you going to do, vote for the republican?" SO, there is evidence of how much a candidate keeps promises if you care to look back at his campaign positions vs on the job positions.

    also if a guy stands up and loudly proclaims he will be the leader and transformational agent, you cheer for his enthusiasm and ask him OK, now where have you been a leader before and what kind of transformations have you brought into the organizations you worked for? Not say, Oh what a great leader and transformational agent you are going to be. I will give you the job and wait for you to lead and transform. If we do, we deserve what we get like Bush for example. I remember many democrats including myself saying the same thing about Bush in 2000. This standard doesnt apply only to republican candidates. It applies to our candidates too. Electing a dem is only the means to achieve another end. Not end in and of itself.

    Parent

    But but but (none / 0) (#134)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:41:40 PM EST
    Obama has not stuck to his primary positions - let alone any campaign promises.  I have seen no evidence that he will stick his neck out to protect the middle class any more than any other group.  So far as my observation, he only protects corporate interests.  Please do show me evidence to the contrary.  I'm waiting to be convinced to vote for the Democrat.

    Parent
    Not Here To Convince Anyone (5.00 / 0) (#143)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:56:10 PM EST
    There are plenty of places online to find answers like this one--or not. Your curiosity may lead you there--or not.

    If people don't want to vote for or support Obama, that's their business. If they want to actively oppose him or question him, that's not a problem for me either. I question some of his positions too, like his swerve on FISA. But I also believe McCain would certainly serve corporate interests more.

    I simply get annoyed when people distort facts or deliberately misrepresent them in service of a silly, repetitive expression of opposition. That's why I posted what I did above.

     

    Parent

    they're paid well (none / 0) (#108)
    by sancho on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:04:33 PM EST
    not to listen. representative government in action. or the best govt. corporations can buy.

    Parent
    And Lest We Forget (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by The Maven on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:59:02 AM EST
    FDR was villified for many years by many Americans (and most of the Republican Party) because his programs were viewed as too far-reaching and involved the federal government into so many aspects of society where government had never before extended.  FDR was seen as a polarizing figure up through the time of the U.S. entry into WWII.  Obama has never really shown that he is willing to be despised by those who would thwart his policies, choosing instead to collaberate with everyone, including those policy opponents.  He wants to avoid being disliked by any large segment of the country, which means boldness must be cast aside.

    As has been noted in the past, here and elsewhere, we run the best chance of success by engaging in the politics of contrast and distinction, but there is little evidence that Obama is willing to upend his post-partisan unity cart unless he is forced into it.  So long as he maintains a reasonable lead in the electoral race, there's no reason for him to deviate from his present accomodationist course.

    Roosevelt (none / 0) (#88)
    by tek on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:56:37 PM EST
    was mainly vilified by his own elite social class and Republicans who always hold a grudge when they get turned out of office.

    Parent
    And the fact that he changed the (none / 0) (#150)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:51:15 PM EST
    role of government in the lives of people.

    Parent
    but it's the GE primary . . . (none / 0) (#103)
    by Howard Zinn on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:44:10 PM EST
    appealing to the middle of the road is what you have to do to get elected, isn't it?  Even W was a "uniter, not a divider", who even campaigned on environmentalism!  Once he got into office, we saw who he really was.

    Parent
    But Every Examination (none / 0) (#142)
    by The Maven on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:49:37 PM EST
    of Obama's record and background evinces this same tendency to meet the other side in the middle.  Are we to believe that his entire public career has basically been a feint, a misdirection designed to get him into the White House, where he will govern as a hard-hitting liberal?  More likely, Obama intends to bring triangulation to new heights, positioning himself as being unconstrained by Democratic versus Republican struggles.  Bush's handlers came up with the uniter theme in 1999, as he was being promoted for his presidential run; Obama's been claiming it for himself since the early 1990s.

    Parent
    And he ran against (none / 0) (#144)
    by nemo52 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 06:09:02 PM EST
    the "old politics" of triangulation.  Heh. New politics, my foot!

    Parent
    Oh, BTD. I want the same thing. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by rooge04 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
    Prepared to be sorely disappointed even if Obama wins in November.  

    Me too (none / 0) (#42)
    by nemo52 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:37:53 PM EST
    And I am finding it near impossible to get behind Obama, even though I don't want more of the Republicans.  It's clothespin on the nose time.

    Parent
    Yes. I'm going to probably not be able (none / 0) (#114)
    by rooge04 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:20:09 PM EST
    to breathe that day.

    Parent
    When I hear a candidate say something like this (5.00 / 7) (#14)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:59:40 AM EST
    "Changing politics" is not the change America craves. Changing GOVERNANCE and adoption of bold progressive policies is the change America craves.

    I will be very happy. I don't expect it anytime soon, at least not from this cowardly Dem party. They are convinced any success they have had in the last 3 years is due to either people just not liking Bush and the war, or Dems being centrist.  And I'm not sure they are wrong.  But it is time to stand for something. There has never been less risk for doing so.

    To clarify: I mean centrist in the bad (none / 0) (#51)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:55:09 PM EST
    Unity Schtick 'meet the Reps in the middle' way, not in the good 'calling my position the center because it is most popular' way.

    Parent
    I am so saddened that (none / 0) (#124)
    by Xanthe on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:59:46 PM EST
    this is after 8 years of Bush.  repeat:  8 years of bush and the corporations that run our lives.  If we can't come up with progressive government now - when?  What the heck are the Dems afraid of?  Well, I mean except losing their excellent jobs.  

    Parent
    But the Democrats (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:59:59 AM EST
    in Congress don't want FDR-type change.

    So we get Obama and we don't get FDR-type change.

    The Dems in Congress won't lead on change... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:18:01 PM EST
    ... but they might follow if Obama will lead. I don't think that's his plan, though.

    Parent
    i have reached the conclusion that (none / 0) (#40)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:34:10 PM EST
    the majority of dems in congress are looking to protect their own seat, collect their paycheck and cover themselves. not much else!

    Parent
    That's why it would be Obama's job... (none / 0) (#92)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:15:54 PM EST
    ... to convince them that any kind of real change is in their interest.

    Parent
    true but sorry to say i don't see him (none / 0) (#98)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:31:44 PM EST
    going anywhere in that direction.

    Parent
    The Dems in Congress (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:54:56 PM EST
    Pelosi, Kerry, are responsible for Obama.  They wanted Obama because they want their own version of the status quo.

    Mr. Hopey-Changey is in reality a follower.  He'll do their bidding.

    Parent

    I think they got one look at Obama's (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:57:37 PM EST
    potential as a charismatic public figure at the 2004 convention and decided he was the right one to front their poilicies.  It is as simple as that, in my view.

    Parent
    Not quite. (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:09:37 PM EST
    He was the only one who had a chance to beat the Clintons by taking AA votes away from Hillary.  It wasn't automatic...they had to insinuate racism to 'bring it home.'

    Thoroughly disgusting.

    There will be longterm consequences in race relations because of this and the Democratic Party will pay bigtime.

    Parent

    I agree about the tactics (none / 0) (#73)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:26:49 PM EST
    But I think they would have gotten behind Obama as a Dem with the charisma Kerry, Dukakis, Mondale, etc lacked whether Hillary had run or not.


    Parent
    I doubt it (none / 0) (#87)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:54:27 PM EST
    but we are both just guessing.

    The whole reason for Obama's candidacy was to 'get rid of the Clintons once and for all...'  If Hillary had not run, they might have backed another solid Dem rather than draft a newcomer...or Kerry might have run again or...Biden or Dodd or, sigh, probably not Richardson...not Edwards, I think...class war and all...

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda...quien sabe?

    Parent

    I was appalled that (none / 0) (#91)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:14:40 PM EST
    Washington State Governor Gregoire was using the "racism" charge.  It will be destructive to Democrats if others follow suit.

    Parent
    Got a link? (none / 0) (#109)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:08:47 PM EST
    If you are referring to (none / 0) (#115)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:21:43 PM EST
    the Rossi TV ads linking Gregoire and the Tribes re the casino issues, I agree with Gregoire...not subtle and racism on its face.

    Gregoire was also charged with racism in the Sims/Greoire primary in '04 race for governor.  She had, as a college student, belonged to a sorority which did not welcome AAs/minorities.  Didn't work for Ron in the primary but hurt Chris in the general.

    Haven't come far on the racism front, have we?  Set back 20 years by current national campaign.

    Depressing.  And ugly.

    Parent

    And if you're Kerry, why the heck not? (none / 0) (#57)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    you get to set the agenda without having to run for president and get ridiculed again, or drag your family into the White House fishbowl. I don't blame him at all.  I just wish he were a little bolder in his vision.

    Parent
    You don't blame Kerry? (none / 0) (#62)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:12:38 PM EST
    I do.

    It's not about him.

    It's about us.  And public policy.

    And class war.

    His wife and kids have all the class.  Kerry?  An embarrassment, politically and as a human being.

    Parent

    Yeah, when you put it that way (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:21:46 PM EST
    I know what you mean. He is doing what is best for himself, like 99% of everyone else. I guess I have stopped expecting exceptional behavior from elected officials. I've never really condsidered him a leader.

    Parent
    Good luck (5.00 / 14) (#16)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:00:29 PM EST
    I had trouble finding a single Obama supporter during the primary who didn't fervently believe that something as trivial as mandates for health care was politically impossible to sell.

    The country may be ready for transformative change.  But Obama's advisors and supporters clearly don't think so.  We're going to get the kind of cautious incrementalism that would have made Dick Morris proud.

    You just reminded me (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:27:08 PM EST
    and I think you are right.  Every Obama supporter who actually supported UHC said that it was political suicide to actually campaign on it, so they gave Obama a pass on it.

    UHC is an issue that acts like a one way street - once people are sold on it, they don't go back.  The trick is to get enough people to make that journey to accumulate a majority.  Then once you have the will, Congress needs to find a way.

    Parent

    By the way (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:30:15 PM EST
    I want to be clear, because I am always sounding like a naysayer on posts like this one.

    I agree completely with BTD and I love the fact that he is willing to keep pushing Obama towards a progressive direction, the way the rest of the blogosphere should be doing.

    I just can't get away from how futile it is to expect more from Obama than what he was willing to promise even during the Democratic primary.  Maybe I should stop harping on that because I totally don't want to discourage BTD from making these posts.  He's doing God's work in my estimation.

    Parent

    The question is (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:46:09 PM EST
    how far in a progressive direction can you go and still come up with the 300 mil or whatever it takes to make a serious run at the Presidency?

    Not very. And please, dont nry to tell me Bill Clinton was, in any meaningful way, a progressive.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#130)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:27:02 PM EST
    The relevant point is that you will always get more progressive results if you apply pressure from the left than if you don't.

    Your argument is a good reason not to become a purity troll and insist on sitting the election out unless the nominee is the second coming of Paul Wellstone.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.  If you don't apply pressure because you figure your beliefs aren't politically tenable, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Parent

    progressive influence on Obama (none / 0) (#139)
    by pluege on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:23:08 PM EST
    peaked 5 months ago. Obama is fully prepared to ignore what progressives have to say, fully.


    Parent
    yup they'll be against it till they are older (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:29:46 PM EST
    and need it. or marry and have a child with medical issues, or get a serious illness, or have a terrible wreck. yup, they'll get change alright. they'll be changing their minds big time.

    Parent
    i was channel surfing last night and (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:36:51 PM EST
    happened on lou dobbs. he was talking about predicting that the dems would change their position on offshore drilling. he was laughing that pelosi along with the rest of the dem leadership had changed their tune. i suppose they actually listened to what the voters in their district were saying. and pelosi sent the dems on vacation while the repubs stayed there to make her look bad. what is going to take for these so called dem leaders to get the message. going along with what they do and voting for them because they have a small d in front of their names leaves me cold.

    Parent
    I had trouble finding a single Obama supporter (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by denise on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    who didn't adapt all his beliefs to match Obama's, and I do mean ALL. He's infallible. Nor could I get one of them to clarify what the nature of this transformative change was. They just want him. The policies are irrelevant.

    Parent
    You can certainly find some (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:07:48 PM EST
    but I noted way back in January that we seemed to be getting to a point where "progressive" was simply a synonym for "whatever Barack Obama happens to be for."

    I don't really know what Obama himself believes about any of these issues, but when someone is supported by a bunch of people who are becoming less and less recognizable to me as progressives with each passing day, it makes me worry.

    I don't think these people are being dishonest at all when they seek to redefine "progressivism" from how I understand the term.  Rather, it increasingly seems to me that they simply understand "progressive" to mean whatever Barack Obama happens to be for.  If Obama makes a disdainful comment about unions, well then, unions are no longer an essential part of the progressive movement, they're just a special interest.  Ultimately you arrive in a place where progressivism is not about Paul Krugman's economic arguments, it's not about the netroots agenda, it's simply about "bringing people together" and restructuring "our participatory form of government," as the above comments suggest.  It's almost as if the rest of us had no idea what progressivism meant before Obama came along.



    Parent
    When the big orange people (none / 0) (#151)
    by hairspray on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:06:08 PM EST
    starting trashing Wes Clark after he endorsed Hillary Clinton I saw that in spades.  After that it was Valerie Plane and Joe Wilson and a number of others.  This worries me because this is how megalomania starts.  We've had Bush with idiocy, we don't need another dysfunctional individual running our country.  Since the congress is so invested in BHO I worry that they will go along and hide the warts so as to be seen as competent.  My husband, a smart cookie with degrees from 2 of the best universities in the US says that what worries him most is Obama's plan to oversee and be the idea person (paraphrasing).  Husband who has many, many years in top management and also adjunct professor in business strategy thinks that O doesn't know what he is talking about.  He will vote for him, BUT....with real concern.

    Parent
    yeah, but I still think... (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:33:51 PM EST
    unlike BTD, that he is not a shoe-in for the presidency.

    Parent
    Let Me Introduce Myself (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:59:34 PM EST
    I must be the single Obama supporter who doesn't adapt her beliefs to match his, and who does not believe he's infallible.

    To me, he's not a messiah, an icon or a hero. He's a politician whose policies match my values well enough on the issues that really matter to me.

    As far as transformative change is concerned I believe that will occur if he, is elected president as the first African American, just as it would have occurred if Hillary Clinton was elected as the first women.

    Beyond that, his fundraising and ground organizing has also been groundbreaking and (I hope) transforms the way politics operates in the future.

    Parent

    Do you (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:11:20 PM EST
    believe that mandating everyone purchase health insurance is a sure-fire political loser of an idea?

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#116)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:22:44 PM EST
    But I must confess I am not at all well versed in this issue.

    So I guess my 'no' might be better an 'I don't know.'

    Maybe I should further confess that I am less policy wonk than pragmatic idealist (oxymoron, I know).

    I'd like to believe that if a policy is good, a savvy politician with an effective campaign operation can sell it. How it all gets implemented in office...like I said I'm not so much well versed in this.

    Parent

    You haven't done your homework, then? (2.00 / 0) (#146)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:13:46 PM EST
    So like with other Obama supporters, it's not the issues for you then....or at least not any issue that affects you right now? Are you too young - and your parents too young - for you to care about healthcare, which is so central to our future national solvency, not to mention the economic stability of our citizenry? This isn't a little side issue....

    Clinton won as many as or more votes than Obama by being very specific about policies and inviting voters to hold her responsible. Her supporters don't say we're not too familiar with this or that issue....the whole point is her (and his) stances on the issues.

    Another few weeks of that "long, long" primary and she'd have creamed Obama, despite the DNC and the SDs, because she was giving what the voters wanted - and still want: straightforward, detailed, progressive policies.

    Parent

    Hey, Sally (5.00 / 0) (#148)
    by daring grace on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:03:17 AM EST
    Why on earth do you imagine that only older voters care about health care reform? By the way, I AM an elder myself (52) and even when I was in my 20's I struggled with handling medical needs sans insurance. So I need no lectures from you. But you might try approaching politics without such a sense of segmentation. It doesn't have to be seniors vs kidz or women vs men or Clinton vs Obama. Many, many people share your values and your concerns across all these lines.

    So I haven't studied the details of the candidates' health care programs. Guess what? That doesn't define me as an Obama supporter. It defines me as a typical voter who acquainted herself enough with the candidates' positions to know that both of them were putting significant health care coverage reforms on the table. And McCain is not.

    As for Hillary Clinton, if you ever read my posts here you might know that I believe, given her strengths as a campaigner, she should have won the primaries, and that if her campaign operations were as effective early on as they were later, she probably would have won. And if she had, I would have supported her and I would not be here now flinging kneejerk insults at those who always supported her.

    But she didn't.

    Parent

    well if he gets elected, they'll (none / 0) (#101)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:34:10 PM EST
    be changing their tune as reality sets in. shame!

    Parent
    Right on the nail. (none / 0) (#56)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:04:58 PM EST
    Bloggers were willing to let healthcare as a priority slide, but were all raves (Stoller) for net neutrality.

    "In mid-November, Barack Obama laid down some truly remarkable and transformative proposals for the internet, including a strong embrace of net neutrality. ..."

    Stoller/H Post

    Transformative proposal.

    Parent

    Right bark, wrong tree (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by pluege on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:02:31 PM EST
    Obama is center-right thru and thru - its all he is interested in: playing the (current) game. There is no way he ushers in a new deal no matter what the American people want.

    Obama is wide awake and ready to make change (5.00 / 9) (#18)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:04:41 PM EST
    Unfortunately, it's not the change you've been waiting for.

    Obama sees himself as the transformational figure who will lead the Democratic Party (or at least, major factions thereof) out of the wilderness.

    What wilderness would that be? The wilderness of their longstanding attachment to the idea that government can solve problems.

    At heart, Obama is much more comfortable with the idea that "government is the problem, not the solution".

    He's bright enough not to repeat Reagan's errors step for step ... but if the next Mr. Laffer approaches him with the next cocktail napkin theory of minimalist action, he's all in.

    He knows Democratic constituencies have to be brought around slowly to this point of view, and he thinks he's the man to do it.

    We're too 'Regulation-happy' (none / 0) (#128)
    by catfish on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:19:39 PM EST
    is the problem, Obama says:
    Obama said government should become more consumer friendly and accused Democrats of getting too "regulation happy" by inundating the system with red tape.

    So we're going to follow a Republican administration who grows government spending (and cuts government oversight) with a Democratic administration who cuts government oversight (and grows government spending.)

    Awesome.

    Parent

    St. Ronnie (none / 0) (#129)
    by catfish on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:21:31 PM EST
    sure did a number on our nominee. Must have been right when Obama was hitting a formative phase in the 1980s.

    Parent
    Less than three months. Are you (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:09:31 PM EST
    optimistic Obama will do this and is it too late even if  he does?

    There is nothing about Obama that (5.00 / 20) (#23)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:13:26 PM EST
    would lead anyone to think he can be the bold, decisive leader who can push the agenda that America needs.

    Obama is a thinker.  He is a student.  He watches and he waits to see where the herd is going and then he runs to the head of it and acts as if he was there the whole time.  If the herd splits and goes in different directions, he is paralyzed until he figures out which group is larger.

    He may be at the head of the pack, but he isn't so much leading the pack as he is managing the symbiotic relationship between the herd and himself that keeps him there.

    So, forget the bold agenda with Obama in the WH - that isn't who Obama is; bold is too risky for someone who has as much need to be loved as he does.

    He did not come to the race as a bold initiator of change - you can't find it in his votes - and his sloughing off of Senate assignments and his glomming onto others' accomplishments are not the traits of someone who is going to lead us into the light.  They are the traits of someone who is bored by the grunt work, who fades when the spotlights are off and the applause dies.  He will need constant cheering on to stay on task, and while there seems to be no shortage of sycophants on tap to keep the dream alive, keeping Obama propped up is going to make for terrible governance.

    I just do not see Obama as an agent of the kind of changes we must have.

    OUCH!! But right on the money, Anne. (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:32:29 PM EST
    We need to ban rose-colored glasses so people can get a clear view of how lacking the "might be" dem
    nominee is when it comes to anything that might bring America to a better place.  Empty promises are not going to cut it.

    Parent
    Anne, Commpletely spot on assessment. (none / 0) (#54)
    by MMW on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    Your second paragraph is pure brilliance.

    Parent
    With the current system (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:53:32 PM EST
    of patronage with it's dependence on the status quo, under what possible scenario could we look for any "bold initiators of change" to come to the fore?

    Parent
    Is there anyone who would do this? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:18:02 PM EST
    Is there a leader in Congress or elsewhere who would push this kind of change? I'm a big Hillary fan, but I think she's probably too centrist for this (although she became much more populist during her campaign). Sen. Obama is too centrist and far too cautious and I think he has misread the mood of the counrty. Sadly, I think this is going to be a big missed -- or at least delayed --opportunity, but maybe I am being too pessimistic.

    You may laugh at this (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:11:49 PM EST
    if you never listened to his old radio show on Air America, but the only one I see on the horizon who would do this is Al Franken. If he makes it to the Senate, of course. That is where my GE campaign dollars are going.

    Parent
    Change Agent (5.00 / 7) (#28)
    by Missblu on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:20:00 PM EST
    The real change agent was waiting in the wings with a policy agenda stretching back 32 years.  This particular agent had an abundance of ideas ready to go from universal health care to green jobs for energy. The agent's name was Hillary Clinton and super delegates it is not too late to reconsider your vote.  A recent poll by Politico of the current leanings of 747 SDs: shows Clinton 268.5, Obama 271, Uncommitted 207.5. A convention roll call is in order for all of the almost 18 million of us who had our made in heaven change agent.

    Question: (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:20:29 PM EST
    Is there a single advisor (other than Rubin) in his inside circle who would advance such proposals to Obama?

    The issues about revenue to pay for infrastructure (raised in above comments) is real, but adding to deficit spending isn't the only way to pay besides raising tazes on the wealthy a la Bill Clinton levels.

    Infrastructure jobs usually pay union wages to skilled (but not college-educated) workers...roads, bridges, school construction, dams, etc.)  Those people pay taxes when employed!  That is revenue.

    In manufacturing, there will be increased investment in replacing all that military equipment destroyed or left in Iraq after withdrawal...'rebuilding the military.'  That will sell to the American people...mostly...for everyone knows it has to happen.  Post-partisan investment, bigtime.  But it must wear a 'made in America' label!  No exporting that stuff as they are doing now...talk about endangering our security.

    Talk about THAT, Obama.

    I'm not holding my breath.

    and hearing that the dems run to the right (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:21:13 PM EST
    as fast as they can. I feel like I'm in some parallel universe where up is down and left is right. Americans want this, they've been telling us since the '06 election that they want fighters and not compromisers. They want someone to stand up to repubs and hold them accountable. And given that clear message, the dems run to the right and compromise and desperately don't hold repubs accountable.

    Oh I'm so motivated to support the dems. Hey, maybe we should all run to the right like them. After all, they're our role models aren't they. snark.

    FDR (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by miriam on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:26:02 PM EST
    was a real leader, who was willing to take incoming flak because he had vision that looked beyond today.  He was also a problem solver and a pragmatist--I see none of these attributes in Obama.  Instead I see, in Kipling's words, "the man who would be king."  I am still vainly trying to figure out what it was in Obama that led the DNC to believe he was the president we need in today's world.  

    I don't think..... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by trillian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:33:59 PM EST
    ......the DNC think along those lines.

    I am still vainly trying to figure out what it was in Obama that led the DNC to believe he was the president we need in today's world.
     

    It's all about gaining personal power and mailing lists.

    really

    Parent

    Craving fresh marrow from New Voters cause the (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Ellie on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:25:57 PM EST
    ... old loyal support has been vacuumed clean.

    Suggested NuDem Motto: bring us the fresh stuff and watch us suck harder than you ever thought possible.

    Just to show I'm not just contentious for its own sake, by what logic did anyone in Dem Leadership hope to sell the idea that all The One has to do was make yet another Best Speech Evah -- and flaunt his 'brilliant' campaign strategy -- to get his new right wing BFFs voting with him on anything?

    Really, will Obama's offer of big love halt the Rethuggernaut cause he's just THAT charismatic?

    I keep thinking of the Iggy Pop line from Lust for Life:

    Something called Love,
    Something called Love,
    Well that's like hypnotizin' chickens.

    (Or maybe finding out where Nom-Phenom got that lotion will halt their instinctive intent to crush Dem Presidents.)

    Still baffled about how this grand plan's supposed to work.

    Parent

    short and sweet, obama is no fdr. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by hellothere on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:30:39 PM EST
    wake up america, this is not an american idol contest. there are real results to your vote.

    Totally agree. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:38:32 PM EST
    Enough with this hopey-changey, talking about himself mush. He needs to be a Leader with a capital L. People are hurting and they want some concrete policy regarding getting this country out of the mess it's in and back to what they have been brought up to believe it should be: the America where hard work is rewarded, the poor are assisted and the rich contribute their fair share. It's not surprising that Americans are looking back to FDR-our parents/grandparents admired him and shared the view of America that they passed on to us.


    Obama needs to come up with (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:50:09 PM EST
    a cohesive economic vision.  He simply has not done that at all.  "Go to my website for more details" is not good politicking IMO.  He needs to go to the people, not vice versa.

    Obama has had a crappy month.  The trip abroad was good but McCain has spent the past two weeks souring it.  And now Obama's on vacation.

    He needs to grab the reins.  His team is WAAAYYY more afraid of the right-wing than they claimed they would be.  What other explanation is there for their conservative campaign?

    What I would like to see (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:50:37 PM EST
    I'd like to see the next big Obama ad buy be one touting the advantages of his health care plan, and nothing else. Better yet, I'd like to see the ad recommend something a little bolder than his current health care plan.

    No tying McCain to Bush or saying anything at all about the last 8 years.  Just blanket the airwaves with a positive health care message.  That would set the stage for it legislatively after he is elected.  It would also be a change to how politics are usually conducted.

    And then another ad about voting rights. And one about restoring the Constitution.

    It seems like they are afraid to run issues ads.  The only positive ads they run are the Obama personality ads.  I'd like to see less about the candidate and more about the issues.  Sell the public on the issues first.

    He has enough money to run the ads about McCain if he still thinks he needs them.  

    They are falling into the Rep trap (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:52:12 PM EST
    of making the campaign about Obama rather than the issues.

    Parent
    And the Clintonistas are falling into the trap (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Christy1947 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:19:38 PM EST
    of seeing their candidate so uncritically that they will split the party without a qualm, thereby handing it all to McC and his. And feel morally superior for having done it, wanting the part of the responsbility that validates their egos but not the responsibility that they have imposed McC and the neocons and the Christian Ayatollahs on all of us, because 'that's not our fault.' Obliviousness to anything that doesn't agree with their point of view and their unfettered and unencumbered right to have their way. They really do need to decide whether vindicating their Hillary position is worth four more years of anti abortion, strange wars, bankrupt government, people losing their homes out of the mortgage crisis because that is their personal fault but all the mortgage packagers getting bailouts, abolishing Social Security and medicare and medicaid, giving the national assets away to favored Republicans, and people out of work who are not their neighbors, until it is too late and the ones out of work are them.

    Parent
    I take full responsibility ... (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:28:30 PM EST
    ... for acting on my belief that four years of McCain would preserve progressive possibilities that four years of Obama would extinguish.

    It's a rotten deal -- but if you get your way, it's the only deal on the table.

    Parent

    Thought I was the only one (none / 0) (#131)
    by catfish on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    Exactly where I've been since about January.

    Parent
    Ah. (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by Fabian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:46:22 PM EST
    A rant of superiority and condescension!  Bravo!

    Now about Universal Health Care?

    Parent

    Club Obama doesn't need us, remember? (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Ellie on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:13:05 PM EST
    Why does this complaining persist? And why are Obama supporters still fixated on Sen. Clinton?

    He and Dem leadership claimed to have enough new first time voters, enuogh African American support and all those Dems for a Day to win and win big.

    Sen. Clinton generously threw her personal support behind Obama, so any complaints the Obama campaign has about voters only hurt him in the GE.

    The virtual guarantee of swarms and armies of new voters and volunteers armed with -- get this -- the awesome power to transmit voices through and something called "email" and "txt msgs" over the ether were the reasons behind the Dem's switcheroo's of the Roolz to reward Obama and punish Clinton whenever possible.

    And once again, no party or individual has the right to expect support, demand justifications for it, or even ask the Election Day intentions of potential voters. THAT is against the REAL rules of Democracy.

    Parent

    We truly find ourselves in... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:18:38 PM EST
    a Catch-22 type of situation. Unfortunately, we can no longer afford to cast a castigating partisan vote. Neither party in the last eight years has met the challenge of representing the American people nor addresses the needs and expectations of our nation; ergo the state of crisis it faces.

    Reality is what it is, and deep, thoughtful reflection needs to take place about for whom to vote. The choices leave a lot to be desired for many different reasons, but also for some similar ones: I doubt that either of the two candidates is any one's first choice.

    The statement you've made has an implicit blame before-the-fact, that Mr. Obama's or the DNC's possible demise could be placed on the Clintonistas. When are the Obamaphiles going to stop beating that dead horse, and accept the consequences of their own actions?


    Parent

    Voting rights? (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:20:55 PM EST
    You want Obama to do an ad about voting rights?

    Irony is dead.

    Parent

    ha. I suppose so. (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:39:35 PM EST
    If only Obama was a credible voice (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by shoephone on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:25:38 PM EST
    on health care and restoring the Constitution.

    Parent
    why not just leave the silly rhetoric (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:20:22 PM EST
    about Clinton out of this.  The point still stands without it.

    Probably even stronger without it.

    People want to call the job creation and people raised out of poverty in the 90s "incrementalism", oh well, but it only makes sense to me if one merely keeps an issue activist scorecard and doesn't measure real impact on society.

    I can quite easily imagine Obama having a better issue activist scorecard at the end of his admin, but having less of a positive impact on society.

    I guess were gonna see what happens.

     

    I have had it with you too (none / 0) (#72)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:25:57 PM EST
    One more comment like that and you are gone.

    I am heartily sick of a whole bunch of you.

    Talk about the issues in the post or stop commenting.

    Last warning for all of you.


    Parent

    You're the one who brought up Clinton (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:48:27 PM EST
    and I get to have an opnion about that too.  Even in your threads.

    The charge of incrementalism is phony.  I challenge it.  The contrast between the Clinton years with the bush years preceding and the bush years following is anything but incremental.  I can think of little that is more UNincremental than that.

    I think I have a right to challenge that meme/assumption if you bring it up first.

    Parent

    You're gone (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:57:43 PM EST
    Do not comment in my posts anymore.

    Parent
    Looking how to see if you can say he is (none / 0) (#94)
    by Christy1947 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:25:32 PM EST
    not good but without mentioning her name, doesn't work at this point. It's too obvious.

    Parent
    if that was a reply to me (none / 0) (#96)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:29:50 PM EST
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

    Parent
    Tell me (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by tek on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:53:31 PM EST
    again what Reagan did to create and expand the middle class?  And how Clinton shrunk it?

    Yes, please, I want another 8 years of Ronald Reagan. <Snark.>

    You Want FDR Changes? (4.75 / 12) (#7)
    by Alegre on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:45:21 AM EST
    Then the Supers need to send Hillary up as our nominee.

    She's the ONLY one who can beat McCain and get the job done.

    Craving versus reality (none / 0) (#2)
    by OldCity on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:36:17 AM EST
    The new Deal was not without its costs.  Similar efforts by a government facing a historic deficit would by necessity involve revenue issues.

    Thus the question:  could Obama possibly campaign successfully on a platform that included the virtual certainty of tax increases?

    I doubt it.  He's demonized already as the classic "tax and spend liberal".  Any allusion to a New deal-type initiative would expose him to far more probing questions specifically addressing funding models.  Ending the war certainly would be helpful, but the large scale infrastructural efforts referenced carry huge price tags, far in excess of the aggregate savings realized by a troop pullout.

     

    Well (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    He's running on it now.

    Parent
    He is proposing a tax cut for middle class (none / 0) (#5)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:44:26 AM EST
    families.

    Parent
    He is proposing (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:49:33 AM EST
    to raise taxes to Clinton levels on the rich.

    Parent
    Yah, but I thought (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by dk on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:51:50 AM EST
    your point is that he now needs to go farther than Clinton.

    Parent
    Aside of that (none / 0) (#22)
    by OldCity on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:10:35 PM EST
    increased taxes on the rich are salable elements of an economic program...taxes on the middle class are not.  

    I don't think there's a parallel between this period in our history and the Great Depression.  The US, almost unilaterally, destoyed it's own domestic manufacturing base.  I don't think it's the government's obligation to recreate a sector of the economy, nor is it possible.  

    If you read the Obama program it is, like McCain's full of vagaries.  Sure, we can invest in re-training, but there have to be markets for the labor.  And, as long as we continue to buy our consumer goods from abroad, the demand for skilled labor will be very low.  

    That said, it's about as optimistic a document as we've seen from a candidate in quite a while, and it acknowledges many of the fundamental realties foisted upon us by Bush economic policy.  Merely by doing so, it's better than McCain's.

    Parent

    Clinton (Bill) called for shared sacrifice (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:10:22 PM EST
    ... at a time when the consensus (left, right, and center) said America could neither compete globally nor balance her budget domestically.

    Parent
    Knight-Ridder, January 24, 1993 (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:19:44 PM EST
    One day after Bill Clinton's inaugural call for sacrifice to cut the budget deficit, the new president and Congress showed how hard it is ... speaker of the House said sacrifice meant hiking the gasoline tax ... leader of the Senate nixed that idea ... To 45 freshmen House Republicans, sacrifice entails spending cuts without tax increases ... House Democrats claimed sacrifice requires tax increases without spending cuts.

    ...

    Polls show the public is willing to do its part if the sacrifice is shared fairly.

    But the thought of making the average citizen pay more taxes for fewer services remains a frightening prospect for politicians ...

    Long analysis, much worth reading in retrospect.

    Parent
    And here's an amusing companion piece (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:32:10 PM EST
    ... on Clinton Era sacrifice outrage from Snopes.com.

    Parent
    So? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:30:48 PM EST
    At this point, I think it is pretty clear to most Americans that the rich can afford a tax increase and that the majority of Americans in the middle class could use a break.

    Of course, John McCain is going around erroneously claiming that Obama is going to raise everybody's taxes - but even if Obama were saying that he'd shut down the IRS McCain would still be making this claim.

    Parent

    Um (none / 0) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:35:11 PM EST
    Not sure what your point is. I was saying that Obama is proposing to raise taxes, on the rich.

    I am all for it.

    Parent

    My point is that he's not (none / 0) (#82)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:42:24 PM EST
    raising taxes across the board at all which your first comment as written suggested.  

    And I think Americans are at a point where they'd just like to see something come of their tax contributions other than freshly painted Iraqi schools and blown up Iraqi bridges that we end up rebuilding.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:50:08 AM EST
    he started to vote against it in the last 2 years.

    Parent
    Sheesh (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:19:43 PM EST
    You are really daft.

    Starting in 2007, he voted against Iraq War Funding.

    WTF is wrong with some of you?

    Has anyone been reading for the past few years?

    I can tell you right now, I am heartily sick of the BS coming from a lot of you directed at me and I have a hair trigger now for bannings from my thread.

    I am tempted to ban you right now. Stop the BS. NOW.

    Parent

    Do You Deny (none / 0) (#78)
    by flashman on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:34:51 PM EST
    that he voted FOR funding untl last year?  Are we supposed to feign ignorance of his record just to be allowed to discuss issues here?  Censorship and propaganda aren't what most of us desire.

    Parent
    Are you effing kidding me? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:37:14 PM EST
    I discussed it in real effing time. I was responding to the claim that is was NOT true that Obama voted against funding for the Iraq War in the last 2 years.

    I have had it with you too.

    Last warning.

    I am about to clean house of the likes of you, Truth Sayer and Edgar.

    One more time from any of you and you are all gone from my threads.

    Parent

    Well, that wasn't the claim being made (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by flashman on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:32:40 PM EST
    If I have to be banned for speaking the truth, then so be it.

    Parent
    You're banned (none / 0) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:42:04 PM EST
    from my threads for not speaking the truth.

    NEVER comment in my threads again.

    Parent

    It will all come down to whether or not (none / 0) (#4)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:43:23 AM EST
    Obama and his team figure out that their chances of winning states like Utah are just as remote regardless of how timid or bold he is in his policy proposals.

    but, (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:53:08 AM EST
    he won BIG victories in Utah, Idaho and Alaska and the like with his 46 state strategy.  Yes, I know there ar 50 states.  But, I'm not counting MI, FL, WV and KY because Obama ignored those states.  So, "Yes he Can" turn those RED states blue.

    that's what I heard on the internets anyway.

    Parent

    Yeah out of the ten registered Democrats (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:34:18 PM EST
    in Wyoming he got like eight of them.  The question is whether or not he thinks that he can get a majority out of the tens of thousands of registered Republicans to add to the ten Democrats and if he will think that taking bold positions will scare avowed McCain supporters away.  /snark & sigh.

    Parent
    The New Deal was only successful (none / 0) (#19)
    by jtaylorr on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:09:20 PM EST
    because of the Great Depression. No one cared about inflation because everyone was already poor and the government put price controls on food. By 1942 inflation was above 13%. Our economy is bad, but it's not bad enough that the inflation caused by the money printing required to fund New Deal-like programs wouldn't have an effect on consumers.

    This sounds like an old fashioned (none / 0) (#24)
    by Lahdee on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:15:26 PM EST
    Democratic agenda to me. No post anything here, just pocketbook politics.

    sorry about OT (none / 0) (#38)
    by CHDmom on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:33:45 PM EST
    Did you see the report from Denver about the man found dead in a hotel POSSIBLE cyanide found?http://tinyurl.com/58fwuc

    DENVER (CBS4) ― It has the makings of international intrigue. Less than two weeks before the Democratic National Convention a man has been found dead in a Denver hotel room with a container of what authorities initially suspect to be the deadly poison cyanide.
    Adding to the intrigue is that the dead man, Saleman Abdirahman Dirie, 29, appears to be from outside the U.S. No passport was found on Dirie, who is believed to have entered the country from Canada.
    A large container of a white powdery substance was found in the man's room on the fourth floor of The Burnsley Hotel at 10th Avenue and Grant Street.


    Apologies for OT (none / 0) (#52)
    by NJDem on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 12:56:44 PM EST
    AP: Arkansas Democratic Party chairman in critical condition after a shooting at party headquarters, according to party executive.

    link

    This post reminds me of (none / 0) (#60)
    by eric on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:11:40 PM EST
    an article by Christopher Hayes in 2004 entitled, "Decision Makers".  It is an essay about how undecided voters are essentially irrational, clueless people and don't "get" politics.  My favorite passage is here:
    As far as I could tell, the problem wasn't the word "issue"; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the "political." The undecideds I spoke to didn't seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances.

    So, when I read this post and see that people do support all these bold initiatives, I am not as encouraged as I should be.  I do not have faith that American's can tie the candidate and his "issues" with their general sense that something needs to be done.  They don't understand that politics is there to fix the things they don't like.  In the Hayes piece, he writes,

    I would engage undecided voters, they would list concerns, such as the rising cost of health care; but when I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief--not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue.

    So, when people register support for bold changes, I don't have faith that they'll even be able to connect the change they want with any particular issue or policy - or even any particular candidate.


    Interesting insights there (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM EST
    I think making that conenction is the job of the candidate.  It has to be explained to people over and over, without seeming like you are being condescending. Bill and Hillary are great at that.

    Parent
    I agree Bill is good at this (none / 0) (#83)
    by eric on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:45:46 PM EST
    I remember seeing Bill the summer before the election of 2000.  He was making an appearance here in Minneapolis but wasn't asked to campaign for Gore.  Big mistake.  Anyway, he still made some good plugs in his speech.  And the key point that I most remember was Bill' ability to emphasize that there were REAL differences between Gore and Bush and that there would be REAL consequences for choosing badly.

    Wow was he right.

    Parent

    The interesting thing about this thread... (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by OldCity on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:25:55 PM EST
    is the assumption by all of the HRC backers that she, not he is capable of engendering such a sweeping change in policy.

    Come on, everyone.  There will be no sweeping change.  Our system is inefficient for a reason, to ensure adequate debate and representation of all interested parties.  Huge increasees in spending without commensurate cuts, a probable tax increase, growth in social programs (most  of which I agree with, by the way) simply aren't going to occur.  

    The center, the folks who aren't policy zealots, apply very different tests to economic policy than do most on this thread.  Their representatives are going to weigh in, and no one should be surprised when Congress doesn't act in lockstep with any economic agenda.

    I think you can expect infrastructural spending.  Maybe even some re-training efforts.  But if anyone is looking for immediate action on either candidate's plan, they're deluded.  And, if anyone really expects that the majority of people truly believe in any candidate's economic
    promises, you're even more deluded.  

    We still suffer from the sequellae of Reganomics...

    Parent

    I just meant they are good at (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    explaining it. Of course actually doing it is very slow and inefficient. But if the people don't understand what can be done, they sure are not going to ask there representatives to do it.

    Parent
    There are no guarantees, of course, (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 01:46:50 PM EST
    but she, at least, likes the work of making people's lives better, loves the wonky details that drive the issues, knows the issues inside and out, and backwards and can discuss them regardless of whether the discussion starts at the beginning, the middle or the end.  And she can do it without a teleprompter, without notes - it's all in her head and she understands it.

    Is she perfect?  Of course not - but she has a record of working for the issues she cares about, and what we really need right now is someone who can hunker down for the long haul of what will probably be more about grit than glory.  I don't see Obama being able to leave the glory behind for the grit - do you?

    As inefficient as government can often be, we could be looking at an opportunity to have a Democratic president working with a Democratic Congress, and for me, anyway, I see an Obama presidency using it to put forth an agenda that starts from a position of weakness rooted in compormise and Kumbayah, which the GOP minority can and will exploit to the nth degree.

    We need someone who can take that Democratic majority and use it to kick a$$ and take names - for us.  This primary season showed me that Hillary Clinton has that in her - and it showed me that Obama did not.

    But we shall see.

    Parent

    well, we've already seen (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by OldCity on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:11:38 PM EST
    what we get when one party pursues an agenda without adequate compromise.  I'm a stone lefty, but I'm certain that an effort by the majority that doesn't include consideration of minority positions is doomed to failure.

    You seem to think that HRC and Obama are separated by her legitimate desire to improve our lives and his self-aggrandizing impulses.  I can't accept that, won't.  It's baseless, for starters.  He's worked for the betterment of people his entire career, and gave up a great deal to do so.  She, similarly, worked for the public good but was equally, if not more so, ambitious.

    They're both qualified people with good ideas for America.  They both MUST have a genuine desire to serve the public...no one would go through the rigors of campaigning, subject themselves to the endless scrutiny, otherwise.  The fact that your choice is not the presumtive nominee is a poor reason to impugn him or his motives or to assume that he's uninformed.  

    Frnakly, the fact that he's less polarizing makes me more optimistic for his chances of success.  Read HRC's own take on how she handled the healthcare iniative in the 90's.  She acknowleged that her failure to entertain any compromise or alternative doomed the measure.

    Obama will get some of what he wants, which is some of what we want.  I'll take some over none, any day.

    Parent

    Yes, but what will Obama give up (5.00 / 0) (#112)
    by dk on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:14:43 PM EST
    to get that "some"?  Will he sacrifice, to some extent, women's control over their own bodies (think "mental distress").  Will he sacrifice the separation of church and state (think legitimizing homophobia, think Department of Faith, etc.)?  Will he sacrifice our fourth amendment rights (we already know the answer to that question).  Will he sacrifice an efficient and fair healthcare system (we already know the answer to that one too).  Etc.

    Maybe you're willing to give in on those things to get some of what you want.  If the leader of the Deomocratic party is willing to give them up, well, that's a Democratic party in trouble.

    Parent

    Less polarizing???!!!! (2.00 / 0) (#147)
    by sallywally on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 11:31:04 PM EST
    He's split the Democratic Party in half and thrown the "other" half under the bus!

    Parent
    I think we'd all take some over none, but (none / 0) (#102)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:41:38 PM EST
    in order to get some - when you must negotiate a position - it is generally better to ask for more than you will get at the outset - how much more you ask for depends on the conditions and popularity of your proposal.  For some reason, many Senators are under the impression that the American public is not very supportive of UHC - fact is a lot more than they think are very open to big solutions to this problem - the next problem is that Kerry is not in favor of testing just how far Americans will go down that road and he is advising Obama on this front - which is one reason why Obama's healthcare plan is far less aggressive than Clintons or Edwards' proposed plans.  Not that it isn't better than McCain's non-plan, but it doesn't exactly win the Obama camp an "A" for effort in the minds of voters.  The study that BTD cites shows that these "A" for effort proposals might inspire voters to attach themselves to a candidate.  

    One of the common problems with legislators who run for office at this level is that they trap themselves into thinking about legislative realities when they campaign when people are often looking for policies that offer a vision of fullfilling their hopes and dreams.

    Obama says he offers hope and change - the reality is that he has to start attaching specifics to that promise and he needs to stop worrying so much about what Senate GOP members will think and more about what voters want.  That's my take as of today anyway.

    Parent

    This is demonstrably false (none / 0) (#120)
    by sj on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:49:05 PM EST
    They both MUST have a genuine desire to serve the public...no one would go through the rigors of campaigning, subject themselves to the endless scrutiny, otherwise.

    Exhibit A:  George Bush

    For purposes of this comment, I make no assumption about the "genuine desire" of either Clinton or Obama.  But if you believe what you wrote, you need to take a step back and re-evaluate.


    Parent

    I think Americans do want real change (none / 0) (#97)
    by jb64 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:30:30 PM EST
    But the reality is that the economic policies of the past 8 years coupled with a disastrous war policy have left the nation bankrupt, with a currency worth half of what it was in 2000.

    Whichever candidate wins (and I believe it will be Obama) will be faced with a financial crisis that dwarfed the mess Bill Clinton inherited in 1993. I suspect that it will require sacrifice in the form of both tax increases and either spending cuts/spending freezes. We simply can't afford to continue to print money and expect it to be worth anything. We need a strong dollar to offset inflation and to encourage re-investment in our country.

    The genius of what Bill Clinton did was in balancing the budget, had Gore been elected he would have had plenty of opportunity to enact real progressive programs and reforms that would have transformed society. It aint sexy, but necessary.

    Sen. Obama rests. (none / 0) (#100)
    by wurman on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 02:33:28 PM EST
    It seems unlikely to me that a Chicago-machine style politician, via Daley, Jr., etc., would take up any bold, new, substantive issues in the first 2 years.  As prez, Mr. Obama will have to dung out the Augean Stables left by Bu$hInc.

    Un-doing the damages will burn up time & energy.

    Perhaps, in the 3rd year, there may be some room for a couple of major initiatives.  Maybe, by then, the Obama admin. will have discovered "the art of what's possible" & attempt to implement some of the "do-able."

    btd's topic needs real conversation. Without the (none / 0) (#113)
    by Christy1947 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:20:01 PM EST
    mustard and the sub rosa agenda.

    A lot of what can be done will depend on what the Congress looks like in January, and exactly which awful messes will have to be cleared up on a priority basis, since we have a large selection and a lot of them are not particulary NEW DEAL. We're gonna have to set priorities on those, that is, this one first and this one next and this one after that, and to be prepared to discover whole worlds of problems which were kept secret. No matter how awful what we find is.

    It will be hard to get anything through unless there are at least sixty-one D senators, because the discipline of the Republican party to have forty one who will talk anything to death is so good. This had made the majority needed to pass anything in the Senate 61, not 51. 68 if you have to beat down rivers of amendments. That is so because of Republican discipline and the willingness they have to put ideology before their constituents, and distract from what they are doing with slogans. We can criticize it but criticism won't change it. And they are true believers who really do believe their economic theory is more important than all the people in the country, and we can't talk them out of it. It's a fact of life. we gotta have more Ds.

    Part of what will have to be done is to repair the now mostly gone safety net, which was the New Deal gift. Figure out how to reduce the deficit, by getting corporations actually to pay taxes (the report out yesterday from the Government accountability office is that most corporations . . . pay no taxes at all, so its on the very small business and the individual taxpayers) AMT just for corporations above a certain size, maybe? Stop the raids on Social Security and increase both the payroll cap and the categories of income which can be taxed --if you get it in exchange for labor, it should be FICA taxable, not like those hedge funders who call it capital gains because they get it in stock and other securities. Tighten up seriously the SEC so the free-market driven strange instruments which are killing the markets and which were all outside the SEC rules and for which bailouts are being demanded, are now inside the rules and disciplined. tighten up bank and other financial institution rules so we won't be seening banks going down because of a part of their business which is not regulated by the SEC or Fed or whoever is killing them, as it is now. We are being killed now by the overuse of dubious financial instruments which were beyond any regulatory jurisdiction, and where the much tooted free market regulation . . . didn't. this will take a lot of noise and negotiation, but you can't get there if you don't start. Just keep saying Bear Stearns, Bear Stearns.

    Amend the bankruptcy code so debtors can discuss their principal residence mortgages and credit cards there - a lot of those few which do get examined produce relief for debtors on already well known legal principles, and will have a salutary effect on lending practices for it, also a good thing. And individual consideration will require the institutions to demonstrate their bona fides in the lending, if there were any.

    On Health, See exactly how Mass is doing with UHC, and what is to be learned from that to make it work well enough to make it national - insurance is not ideology, it is practice, and private insurance with its tendency to exclude this condition or that customer entirely, cap the amount which may be paid for medicine or procedures when the free market makes them cost more than that,  and the larger overhead over against Medicare and its ilk are practical problems, which private enterprise and the free market have had the chance to solve and have failed. Do the numbers to demonstrate how the cost of single payer or Universal will affect individuals and businesses--that may or may not demonstrate that when the risk is spread differently the costs to businesses and individuals and families change in ways we couldn't see  until we looked.  

    On Education, change No Child so that children who are going to affect the numbers are not shuttled off to Special Ed to take them out of the scored test pool. Stop fussing and teach bilingual students to speak and read and write English, early on and consistently. Use after school programs for that if must be, but do it. Provide adult reading, writing and speaking programs.

    On jobs forbid using independent contractor status for long term workers or standing jobs which will be there for the long haul. So that if the boss gets benefits, so do the ones doing the work in his or her office or business.  

    On the environment, some states are doing interesting things already which can be examined for efficaciousness, and those encouraged by credits of some kind when they do work. Reinstate the credits for alternative energies and reduce those for oil. Reinstate the difference in futures regulation for hedgers who are doing it because they intend to use the oil, and investors, who aren't and have more stringent rules for investors. Don't give oil leases to anybody who has one and has not done its best to exploit it already- they are given to be used, now, not banked against production some day in the future when the profit is higher.

    Get rid of the government by executive order regime, and get those executive orders disclosed and changed or eliminated. Pass provisions that make executive signing statements invalid or at least not binding in favor of any President other than the one who signed them. Clarify the issue so that a foreign state cannot make a deal with the executive which does not go through the Senate. Clarify and narrow what is a national security issue. Reinstitute regular criminal treatment of criminals and terrorists alike - it works. Eliminate detention without limit for the unconvicted.

    Change incentive industrial programs so that incentives go to the Rust Belt and other places where industry has vanished, not to the states of well connected politicians, or right to work states where businesses go because they can pay less, always. this may take national rules on right to work, because of the large number of galloping industries and of desperate states who will do ANYthing to get this plant or that factory, including making them tax free. Put in serious incentives for newly developed energy sources, non-corn ethanol additives, and the engineering and development for fuel efficient vehicles, to replace the dying auto industry and all of its suppliers. Undo the bush administration's denial of the California waiver on air quality, and allow other states to adopt it. Eliminate the 1872 mining statute which allows private comapnies to mine without cost on public land, or land that used to be public.

    Paying for it is a problem. Useless wars and ridiculous private contracting by the Pentagon has got to stop, now. Reinstitute the paygo program seriously, and find an institutional way, perhaps a quota per seat, of pork and porklike programs. Prohibit any congressperson who has taken money from lobbyists from voting on what the lobbyists asked for - a toughie but worth it even if we only get half or a part in round one.

    Can this be done. Don't know, but if you don't do the prep, it will not happen, whether it could have or not.  
    These are finite tasks which require data to back them up so that rs can't fall back again and again on ideology unsupported by reality. This means a very busy Congress and one where we can't write off the Blue Dogs and others who might work with us on this, but not on that.  And if it is pitched correctly as things which will directly benefit the constituents who vote, it will be easier to get people working on it.

    I am not terribly interested if somebody thinks the candidate will take too middle a road on this one or that one. I am interested in setting a specific shopping list of  specific things which must get done and a candidate who formulates an executable plan to get them done. this is a first list, and some notions on how to do it. This is not a personlity issue between you know who and you know who else. It's a work order.

    I hope this is responsive to btd.  

    It's been amazing to me (none / 0) (#135)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:47:02 PM EST
    what Republicans have been able to (un)do with fewer than 61 senators, whether in the majority or not.

    Parent
    Two reasons I can name at once. (none / 0) (#136)
    by Christy1947 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:04:19 PM EST
    1. the Democratic leadership has not been prepared to fight off a flock of filibusters, which is what not having 61 gets for a lot of things the Dems are interested in.
    2. With just enough to have a majority at all only if you count the no longer D Liebermann, and with Blue Dogs who are conservative on many issues and as to them in particular, more like Rs than Ds, there was on too many things a chance of outright loss. which is worse, an outright loss on something you care about, or a crazy compromise when you can get at least some of it. This is one of those questions where the answers are personal to each commenter here.

    Those two make a compromise a really good choice, but Rs hate compromises when they can boast that they protected the nation from traitors and tax increases,  and are benefited in each situation in which something they like cannot be changed, which means few are available.  We might do better even with less than 61 if we were as a group close enough that we didn't need to get a fifth of the entire R delegation to get there. If we were two or three away, the sometimes centerists would have something more to work with than we do now.

    Parent
    Dems would do better (none / 0) (#140)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:45:01 PM EST
    without Reid as speaker, honoring Republican filibusters and not Democratic ones.

    Parent
    You don't understand how filibusters work. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Christy1947 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:48:07 PM EST
    The problem is not Reid, the problem is Republican discipline, in making sure that there are forty votes not to cut off debate, and then debating and debating when not calling on the legislation to be read in full. It is used to block legislation from moving forward, and any fulibuster stops all other legislation as well.

    Reid does have to figure out how to move things through his chamber with the horribly untrustworthy  Lieberman being the nominal majority maker. A lot of that legislation is essential, and filibusters and threats of them also block those. I'm sorry you don't like Reid and don't document the events which makes you not like him and fault him on this issue, but this is a structural problem, not a personality problem. Do you have any real evidence that your candidate Ms. Clinton, would do any better in getting enough votes to move legislation opposed by Republicans? She has not been able to do so in the past while in the Senate. Nor to do negotiations which solve the principled differences between Republicans and Democrats. I invite you to post that evidence.

    Parent

    Harry Reid is the Senate Majority Leader (none / 0) (#156)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 20, 2008 at 09:59:02 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton is not the Senate Majority Leader.  It's up to Reid to set the agenda and get legislation passed and not be held hostage to Republican tactics.

    Parent
    today.

    Edgar08

    flashman

    Truth Sayer.

    This a permanent ban.


    How will this impact the election? (none / 0) (#132)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 04:38:46 PM EST
    Your analysis of what the electorate needs is probably spot on.  What, in recent experience, makes you think that Obamba cares about that?  Or the Democratic party?

    want to step on his correct priority here, a number of these have flitted by during the campaign from the O camp, although not all of them. Bankrupty reform as to mortgages, for example has been mentioned. This campaign has not talked a lot about taxes, but one of them was raising the Social Security payroll tax to increase the fund's solvency, which O has supported. O has specifically mentioned the housecleaning on executive orders and that lot as an 'as soon as I sit down at that desk" item. Bankrupting us by paying for stupid wars we all know about. Generally tax discussions in this campaign have been general - the b.......over there is going to Raise Your Taxes, rather than specific, AMT for corporations, abolition of the differential treatment for compensation for work which is not classic wages and salary under FLSA.  O has mentioned incentives for alternative energy industry, and retooling the auto industry for the energy-saving cars we want.

    Some of them are too new to get there, such as the GAO notice that most corporations pay zero taxes, which appeared when the article appeared this week. Non-ethanol is a maturing issue as originally the farm lobby loved the idea and still does, but the horrible derangement on food issues dependent on corn  which has happened and is leaving people starving in lots of places and the resulting need to find non-food sources for ethanol, and the relative energy inefficiency of producing ethanol, have only appeared as I understand it after the campaign got started. The hundred billion dollar bill due for military contractors is also a this-week issue.

    I hope this addresses your question in part, as I don't want this one to be as long as my immediately prior post which was about three acres.

    Parent

    Your reply covers items which O (none / 0) (#141)
    by lizpolaris on Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 05:48:18 PM EST
    has mentioned or are on his campaign website.  My question is related to his likelyhood of doing what he says.  There's no evidence of follow through on his promises over time nor of leadership on any of the above issues.

    Parent
    that Clinton demonstrate any such thing, and she has not done so. The question indicates to me that there is no proof which would satisfy you, since the future has not happened yet. When you provide proof that your candidate has done something more than talk, I will do so as well.Until then, you're using the question to fish for an excuse which is socially acceptable to you for not supporting the party's candidate.

    Parent
    The Politics of Contrast (none / 0) (#152)
    by navyvet48 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:41:34 PM EST
    Hahahahaha! According to latest polls Obama will not be president by a landslide. Local economic professionals have said that Obamanomics will kill the economy. His higher capital gains taxes are already resonating in anyone who has any kind of investment. This will stop investment in the country. I can't and won't support him as a fraudulent lying, crooked candidate. No one can handle Obama the fool as president! PUMA '08