home

Obama's "Dogwhistle"

Fred Hiatt gives the Left a lesson on how to keep your eye on the issues you care about and not fully focus on the fate of the candidates. There is nothing Hiatt cares about more than continuing the Iraq Debacle. Nothing. Barack Obama's weeks of "moving to the middle" coupled with his inartful use of the word "refine" in reference to his Iraq policy has given Hiatt his opening. Writing for the WaPo Ed Board, Hiatt states:

BARACK OBAMA has taken a small but important step toward adjusting his outdated position on Iraq to the military and strategic realities of the war he may inherit. . . . Mr. Obama's shift came when he was asked last week about his withdrawal plan, which he first proposed in late 2006, a time when Iraq appeared to be sliding into a sectarian civil war. . . . As we see it, [Obama's shift is] a modest but real step toward a responsible position on a conflict that, like it or not, involves vital U.S. interests.

Maybe this is what Obama intends - a wink towards the Hiatts of the world on Iraq. Maybe not. In either event, Hiatt saw his opportunity and he took it. And the debate on Iraq policy has shifted. More . . .

Consider how some on the Left react to any criticism of Barack Obama. Instead of thinking about the ramifications for the policies they claim to support (or oppose), their kneejerk reaction is to defend Obama at all costs and to lash out at anyone who criticizes Obama.

Do they care about the effect on the actual policies? Not so much. By attempting to create a political landscape where Obama can do no wrong - they lose the war on issues. Hiatt knows better. For all the criticism we have of Hiatt on policy, it is clear he knows how to play this game. Certainly much better than some segments of the Left.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< McCain on Rights of the Disabled | D-Day for FISA Capitulation >
  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Shut the f*** up and send Obama more money! (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by lambertstrether on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:06:09 AM EST
    What's wrong with you?

    The same thing that has been wrong with me (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:19:36 AM EST
    since I began blogging - I realize that pols are just a means to an end - the policies you want.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD some are beginning to see the light (5.00 / 5) (#128)
    by BernieO on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:29:51 AM EST
    At least some of the people who defended Obama no matter what are changing their tune. The Nation has an article by Naomi Klein about Obama's "Chicago Boys" complaining about his ties to people from the Chicago free market school of economics. And Bob Herbert goes after Obama in his column today, which is a huge turnaround. Why he was naive enough to buy into Obama's "I'm a new kind of politician" schtick is beyond me. Anyone who has written about politics for years should not be that gullible. I can understand why young people who have paid little attention to politics before and do not know much about history were taken in, but a columnist for the New York Times? Had Herbert bothered to research Obama's record (like his phoney claim about passing a bill to force nuclear power plants to disclose any leaks when he actually watered it down when his buddies at Exelon pressured him) he would have known that Obama was - and is - a typical politician.

    [ Parent ]
    Phonier yet (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:27:29 PM EST
    is that no bill was ever passed.  Watered down to please his backers and Republicans, the bill never made it to the floor.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank You (3.00 / 2) (#97)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:00 AM EST
    That is what I have been saying since you started apologizing for Obama with your "Pols are Pols" thing. I have said "Issues", another one of your dog whistles, and Politicians are inseparable and that Politicians are the ultimate vehicle in getting the Issues you want instituted actually instituted via the Politicians vote.

    If you knew this when you started blogging you sure didn't express that up until now, but it is welcome. Realism is always welcome.

    [ Parent ]

    criminy (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:12:29 AM EST
    and I thought I picked fights.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not picking a fight (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:15:54 AM EST
    Like with any other poster that any of us disagrees with during the course of this election I am only pointing out their change in position toward my own the same as you would point out a posters shift to your stated position.

    [ Parent ]
    S.C.A.R.Y. (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:31:22 AM EST
    "I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views."  - Obama

    Obama's slick manipulation of words is similar to Bush claiming he never said Saddam was connected to Sept. 11 - but 70% of the American people believed he was!

     

    [ Parent ]

    the erie similarities (3.66 / 3) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:39 AM EST
    between Bush and Obama are growing by the day.

    [ Parent ]
    Outfits' stock code varies but both are mannequins (3.00 / 2) (#151)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:09 AM EST
    It's like the pre-Father's Day weekend flyer with underwear modeled by Pointless White Guy in mock conversation with Bland Nonthreatening Black Guy.

    Facing Page: Thoughtful Asian, Pointing Brown Man.

    [ Parent ]

    Well you're wrong (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:24:43 AM EST
    I sense a focus away from media criticism and onto issue activism but as far as those two topics are concerned I dont see how anyone here is being inconsistent.


    [ Parent ]
    Any shift to "issues activism" (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:56:40 AM EST
    is countered by the continued argument for electability, too.  Can't have it both ways.  

    [ Parent ]
    I have some thoughts on this (none / 0) (#163)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:21:44 AM EST
    simmering.

    [ Parent ]
    I look forward to that, Edgar (none / 0) (#164)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:24:16 AM EST
    as the contradiction has been simmering on the back burner for me, too -- still trying to formulate the words but busy writing other words for work, too.  No doubt you will do so sooner and far better, so simmer away, and I'll be watching for it.

    [ Parent ]
    Let's just call a (none / 0) (#131)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:32:55 AM EST
    "refining" of position instead of, as you are calling it, inconsistent.

    [ Parent ]
    it's quite possible, (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:44:51 AM EST
    though, that Obama's move to the middle was done before he shored up "his" Base.  The same base that voted for his Opponent in the Big States and Battleground States.  The same base (post-February) which increasingly tuned him out and expressed buyer's remorse ... and voted for his Opponent.  And the same base he's made almost no discernible entreaties to.

    I don't know if he and his campaign understand that, for some voters (blue collar, older, women, Hispanic/Latino, rural) having a D after his name won't be enough to guarantee their vote.  And his dash to the right/middle before shoring up these voters sets him up to look like he's pandering when he finds he has to backtrack to get the people he should have gotten FIRST!

    Add to that the growing Media Narrative of "the Straight Talker" against the man who speaks "inartfully" and needs to "refine" and that task becomes more difficult.

    Has Obama lost control (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lilburro on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:54:30 AM EST
    of the conversation?  Possibly.  The NYTimes Opinion section is filled with articles questioning him.  Not a good trend, and I don't know if he has enough experience to be able to change the conversation swiftly and effectively.

    and he's unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:08 AM EST
    painted himself into a corner where any change to lead the conversation back to where he wants it could be easily branded as more "refining" or (gasp!) flip-flopping, whether the charge is true or not.

    He's branding himself -- and not in a good way -- before the GOP can do it for him!  

    [ Parent ]

    they are defining obama and not in a (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:25:01 AM EST
    positive manner either. i have read that whoever does the defining wins. oh the shift has come. ko is holding his finger in the dike but the water is coming in from other holes. ko can't run fast enough from hole to hole.

    [ Parent ]
    A letter doing ditto is in my paper (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:58 AM EST
    this morn, the leading paper in so-pro-Obama Wisconsin.  There have been several.

    [ Parent ]
    Has the OC lost control? (none / 0) (#161)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:21 AM EST
    Yep. Flailing comes to mind.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is already running for re-election (none / 0) (#173)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:35:02 AM EST
    Humility is not his strong suit.

    [ Parent ]
    The other day Obama was quoted as (none / 0) (#236)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:15:43 PM EST
    saying "when I was a senator" as if he is now the president, I guess.  Either he is arrogant or he is delusional.

    [ Parent ]
    He's not just a Senator now (none / 0) (#241)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:47:30 PM EST
    He's our Dem candidate.  It's not arrogant or delusional to speak from the perspective of this new role.

    Parse, parse, parse.

    [ Parent ]

    Parse the past-tense verb. (none / 0) (#242)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I'm going to (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:55:18 AM EST
    misspell his name, but c'mon, we all know what Petraeus will say.  He knows he has compromised himself on the altar of Shrub, he's gone all-in, and he has lost the respect of a lot of his mates.  He's going to tell Obama that everything is peachy keen and we're "this close" to ultimate victory, and he'll make sure that it's leaked publicly that he did so.  So Obama's position, if he means it, means except for those that have to leave due to their time in country, the vast bulk of our troops aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

    Sure, I'll grant you that with parsing that yes, he technically didn't flip flop on the issue, but he emphasized the he would be C-in-C and that he would take the troops out on his terms.  (And he'd be right, unless we want the Generals to control the Fed. Govt., and I know none of us want that.  Well, maybe Gen. Clark, but that's not exactly what I meant.)  He said that he would get them out faster than Clinton, and he stressed that MUCH more than the conditions on the ground stuff.  Maybe we heard it the way we heard it because that's what he wanted us to hear!  

    Hey, he is a pol, but I don't remember most of the blogs acknowledging that, instead they destroyed (or tried to at least, they got their man, but they did not destroy her) Clinton as a Republican hack who wanted our troops to die.  I know that is your general point, that issues should drive the blogosphere, not personalities.  But you just have to excuse those of us who saw a good and decent public servant raked mercilessly over the coals just so that Obama could do exactly what she would do getting a wee bit mad at him for it.  Kerry's "I voted for it before I voted against it" was a 100% accurate and honest statement, but it didn't do him one bit of good, did it?  So even if Obama is being 100% honest and accurate on his Iraq position, which he is, it hurts him because it seems like waffling.  

    IMHO at least.

    Jackson

    Sorry BTD... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:04:45 AM EST
    That "don't blame us for being mad" wasn't directed at you, you've been good about allowing criticism of Obama.  I'm a Left Coaster with insomnia, so my wording on that last paragraph was inartful to coin a phrase, it was directed at others.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    sorry Jackson... (none / 0) (#27)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:17:00 AM EST
    But, that would be to "borrow a phrase" not coin one.

    [ Parent ]
    I know... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:18:54 AM EST
    I was trying to be sarcastic, I should have snark-tagged or air-quoted that line.  :)

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:23 AM EST
    Obama probably got it from Deval Patrick anyway...

    [ Parent ]
    This is all correct (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by pluege on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:10:53 AM EST
    Hiatt is correct that Obama will fall in line with the right on Iraq if elected, i.e., very few troops are coming home anytime soon.

    BTD is correct that the hollowing beasts of the left shrieking 'Obama can do no wrong' are both wrong and in for a very rude awakening when Obama does little more in Iraq than a republican would do.

    I Don't Worry (3.66 / 3) (#133)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:36:16 AM EST
    about any of this.  Obama is never going to be elected.  If Dems nominate him in Denver they're done.

    And I have to add, thank dog.

    [ Parent ]

    Yup, this pretty much (none / 0) (#118)
    by dk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:34 AM EST
    says it all in a nutshell.

    [ Parent ]
    i predict the great awakening of the (none / 0) (#166)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:26:57 AM EST
    creative class and kool kids has begun. oh well!

    [ Parent ]
    Sheesh. (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:12:04 AM EST
    There are a lot of things I'm not happy with Obama moving to the center on, but this isn't one of them. Redesigning a plan FOR withdrawal isn't exactly a flip-flop. Not committing to withdrawing or changing your position to leave troops "indefinitely" would be a flip-flop and I don't really see that here. This really IS refining his position, for me at least, and I have no problem when politicians do that.

    The "Out! Now!" folks (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:53:37 AM EST
    didn't want to listen when I said that NO politician would be yanking our troops with all due speed.

    No, they just moaned about Hillary and the AUMF and declared only Change would do.

    Now they have their Change guy.  

    [ Parent ]

    For anyone who chose to really look at (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    everything the top candidates were saying about Iraq, it was obvious that American troops would remain there for years to come. Some troops reductions? Maybe or even probably due to military necessity. (It is possible that even McCain would be forced to do this) Actually end the occupation of Iraq anytime in the near future. None of the top candidates for either party were going to do that IMO. For all the talk coming from the Dems about ending the war, they had no intention of ending the occupation.

    [ Parent ]
    in one debate they asked all them dems (5.00 / 3) (#205)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:49:40 AM EST
    to commit that all troops would beout of Iraq by 2013.  NONE of them would do it.  Not Obama, Clinton or Edwards.  It was a BIG talking point for about a day and a half.

    [ Parent ]
    I saw Hillary being interviewed on O'Reilly (5.00 / 1) (#238)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:25:23 PM EST
    on Iraq (actually his interviews were the best) and he asked her the question; 'What if Petraeus came to you and said everything is working fine, we don't need to pull out now' would you agree? She said NO, and here is why...Then she went on to outline the pitfalls in his position and why withdrawal was absolutely imperative, period. So at least she laid out the possible scenario with a promise to be accountable for her position.

    [ Parent ]
    The Flip-Flop (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:55:36 AM EST
    was in misleading the Left during the primaries that he was going to do one thing and now he is "refining" (an Obama weasel word)and doing what he KNEW he would have to do all along.

    Only the most uninformed among us thought we could pull a bunch of troops out of Iraq with no consequences, there were even some on this blog saying so right up to the primaries. But the realists knew we could not and in this case so did Obama.

    So he pandered (lied) to the Left to get nominated. And now as he has done with more that a few promises he is going where he knew he would go all along. But yet if he would have been truthful he would have not been nominated - so he lied.

    Yeah, as Dean said yesterday, he is the Change Candidate. What Dean didn't say that Change means saying one thing to get nominated and then Changing your mind to your real plans after you are nominated. That is what Bush did isn't it? Promised to be a Compassionate Conservative, but when elected Changed his mind too.


    [ Parent ]

    sad to see dean who really did stand up (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:28:52 AM EST
    against the war in 04 go over to the "what i really meant side".

    [ Parent ]
    the point is - (4.20 / 5) (#69)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:48:25 AM EST
    Obama has refined his position on Iraq to reflect Hillary's. You remember her - right?  Obama supporters characterized her as an evil warmonger who would keep us in Iraq 99 years - whereas Obama would begin withdrawing troops "immediately."
    These are the same Obama supporters who spent time and money marching and protesting the war prior to the 2002 vote - while Obama gave his only anti-war remarks to a small gathering of liberal Democrats. Obama didn't have the political courage to march against the war or speak out against it during large rallies.
    And yet he has no problem looking into the camera and claiming he was "always against the war."

    [ Parent ]
    Point taken. (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:10:15 AM EST
    Although for me, I try to look at it as an Obama vs. McCain thing now. Yes, it's true that he's changing his position to something more in line with Hillary's position now, BUT, and it's a big but, Sen. Clinton is no longer part of the equation. I don't think it serves us well to continue to battle over Clinton and Obama right now as we have our nominee. Lots of bad things happened in the past, but we can't go back and erase them or change them.

    However, this is not a "flip-flop", as that indicates the changing from one side to another on an issue. This is a honing down of a position instead from something more ambiguous. It isn't blatant hypocrisy to me, as FISa was. It's the remodeling of an issue for the general election campaign, which is something that I would expect any good politician (including Sen. Clinton) to do.

    [ Parent ]

    Dalton, (5.00 / 5) (#122)
    by dk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    It's not that I'm completely disagreeing with you, but this isn't just any old issue.  This was, essentially, THE defining issue of the Obama campaign for the most part.  He quite consciously stayed squishy on every single other issue during the primary (in the sense that he was vague on his positions..I don't think anyone can deny that Obama's was a personality, rather than an issue driven, campaign).  But the one thing he focussed on in appealing to the left was to appeal to the anti-war sentiment.

    Now, technically it may be true that he kept his prescription for Iraq so vague that nothing he will do in the future can specifically be labeled a flip-flop.  But, on this definining issue, he is at least flip-flopping in spirit, if not in substance.  And, again given the importance of this particular issue, I don't think arguing over semantics of literal vs. figurative flip-flopping is enough.  

    [ Parent ]

    Obama was ambiguous on Iraq? (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:47:20 AM EST
    >>>This is a honing down of a position instead from something more ambiguous

    Well of course he was - and good for you to admit it. But most of his followers disguised it by focusing on his "opposition" to the war when he couldn't vote and downplaying his numerous votes to fund the war.
    Like Bushies, Obama supporters lied to themselves and played along with Obama's war games.

    [ Parent ]

    Dalton, you need to read this: (none / 0) (#239)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:31:34 PM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, my linking is awful. (none / 0) (#240)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:43:42 PM EST
    just go over to the side bar and read Anglachel's journal dated July 01, 2008

    [ Parent ]
    I've decided that (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:14:57 AM EST
    Obama doesn't flip flop.  Oh, gracious, no.

    He "refines his positions artfully."

    Pretty phrasing, isn't it.

    What a world.

    the title of the post is perfect (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:17:44 AM EST
    I think that is exactly what he is doing.  and not only on this subject.  I dont know what it will do to his election chances but I dont like what it implies if he should win.


    Don't be mistaken (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:21:12 AM EST
    There are two "Wars on Issues" that I look at.

    One is something like "which party is right on a particular issue this election cycle?" which the Dems are leading in vigorously (the public trusts us on 9 of the top 10 issues).

    Second is the real "war" for issues by which a party fights for what are planks of their platform. Take some conservatives on the right who are taking some pretty ugly steps against their nominee to keep things like global warming and alternative fuel investment out of the Republican platform. The right, though the political climate is sucky for them, still fight pretty hard for their issues. Compare that with the Left, and you see a lot less people actually FIGHTING for their issues. It's partly due to the nature of Obama's campaign (one which is based on intangibles and so support has broad brushstrokes) and partly due to the nature of the post-2000 Democratic Party by which we say "oh that's nice" and then roll over and die on most anything.

    We ARE losing this war. We are NOT fighting for our issues by criticizing our nominee. This Iraq thing isn't something I think he should really be criticized for, but other things (FISA, death penalty, abortion) ARE.

    Activists (none / 0) (#50)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:37:37 AM EST
    always believe that politicians don't fight enough.

    Doesn't matter what their political stripe is.

    [ Parent ]

    Useful you are (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:46:17 AM EST
    to Fred Hiatt.

    [ Parent ]
    First "Caddyshack" (none / 0) (#72)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:50:07 AM EST
    and now Yoda?  I didn't think you lawerly types got to watch that much entertainment!  LOL

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    ha (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:53:04 AM EST
    I thought I was the only one who imagined BTD green and three feet tall saying that.

    [ Parent ]
    If you can be certain of one thing (none / 0) (#92)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:02:42 AM EST
    it is that I will never be useful for anyone that supports continue military interventions in the Middle East.

    [ Parent ]
    Not intentionally (none / 0) (#99)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:05:33 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hmm (none / 0) (#105)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:10:44 AM EST
    Do you not consider Afghanistan to be part of the Middle East?  Your position might need a little "refinement."

    [ Parent ]
    Oh yeah... (none / 0) (#168)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:29:39 AM EST
    ...let's repeat the USSR's great blunder.

    [ Parent ]
    Interesting (none / 0) (#227)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:51:09 PM EST
    Comparing blunders in Afghanistan should start with our vigorous involvement in the 80s in opposition to the Soviets.

    The larger of the blunders, IMO, is ours.

    If the Soviets and their Afghan allies had prevailed, would Afghanistan have degenerated into a failed state?

    [ Parent ]

    There is a big difference on (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:31:43 AM EST
    what Obama's position on ending the war was during the primaries and what many of his supporters THINK his position was.

    As I recall there were only two candidate that were for bringing ALL the troops home and ending the war.  They were Kucinich and Gravel.

    Of the top tier candidates Obama, Clinton and Edwards, there was very little difference in positions, although Edwards plan was more aggressive in getting more troops out sooner.  And, any troops left in the area according to Edwards, were to be located in a neighboring coutry instead of directly in Iraq.  Edwards kept saying in debates he would have ALL combat troops OUT of Iraq and always challenged Obama and Clinton on the fact that they planned to leave many combat troops in Iraq.

    Both Obama and Clinotn countered Edwards by saying the combat troops they would leave in Irag would be there just to contend with left over pieces of AlQaeda.  Plus they would have troops to protect the embassy, contractors and finish training Iraqis.

    The only difference I ever saw between Obama and Clinton's plans were that Obama always said it would take 16 months to get the troops out at a rate of removing 1 - 2 brigades per month.  Clinton always said she would start removing the troops at 1 - 2 brigades per month within 60 days of taking office.  But, she would never say how many months it would take.  But, since they both would be working in an environment with the same number of brigades, the fact that one did the math and the other didn't never seemed like much of a difference to me.

    Neither Obama or Clinton ever gave an actual number of how many troops their plans would LEAVE in Iraq.  So, their supporters were always free to imagine what ever made them happy.  There seems to be an abundance of this ability among hard core Obama supporters anyway.

    But, there was one uproar when a senior military adviser to Obama, and i don't remember his name, gave an interview about HIS OWN PERSONAL OPINION and said he would leave 80,000 troops in Iraq.  That was AFTER the Samatha Powers bruhaha, so it was the first glimpse, to me anyway, that Obama's actual position of getting all the COMBAT troops out of Iraq may not have been as aggressive as his supporters thought.

    Other differences (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:19 AM EST
    I remember Obama talking about increasing troops 80-100k in Afghanistan.  Obama supporters never got that... 'I am against dumb wars'... even if he was going to take troops out of Iraq, they were going to be sent to Afghanistan.

    I also remember that Obama approves of using private security corporations (Clinton does not) like Blackwater that have no accountability and that cost the taxpayer a premium as they are much more expensive than troops.  There was one connection to Obama that wanted energy contracts in Iraq and another that wanted a security contract.  I questioned whether Obama would ever get out of Iraq with those types of connections.  

    I want to know what other business deals there are going on in Iraq.

    [ Parent ]

    how can you say that? (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:32:31 AM EST
    that Obama supporters never "got that"? Thats absurd. Withdrawing forces from Iraq so that some could be sent to take down the people that actually attacked us, especially in Afghanistan, has been a central theme espoused not only be Obama supporters but by most progressive Democrats since 2002.

    [ Parent ]
    Easy.... (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:50:03 AM EST
    some of them did not get this.  I don't happen to think of Obama supporters as a monolithic group.  Some find Obama's position on the wars as a flip-flop.  I don't.  Some did not listen to his words.  I know a couple of Obama supporters who are now disappointed and I had to remind them that I had told them Obama was not ending the occupation in Iraq, that none of the most likely candidates would.

    [ Parent ]
    for the record (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by CST on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:59:22 AM EST
    I have yet to meet an Obama supporter who didn't know that he wasn't pulling out of Afghanistan, and probably adding more troops.  His whole "speech against the war" was all about how we shouldn't abandon the real fight in Afghanistan and we were wasting our resources in Iraq.  

    Any one who didn't think that really wasn't paying attention at all.  The Iraq flip or not a flip is a lot more nuanced so I understand the confusion there.

    Glad to know we are no longer a monolithic group though :) And I concede your point that SOME supporters may not have known about Afghanistan.  Just that those supporters must really not know anything about their candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    And Many Here (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:04:48 PM EST
    Also believed Hillary was going to end the war. Both of them crafted positions that allowed for tremendous leeway while sounding definite, as any pol worth their salt would do.

    [ Parent ]
    Afghanistan is a stupid (none / 0) (#162)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:20:46 AM EST
    stupid area to base an army.  

    [ Parent ]
    i am sure the russians would agree. (none / 0) (#169)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:30:03 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No Difference There Either (none / 0) (#183)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:06:37 AM EST
    Hillary was also for taking the war to Afghanistan where we were really needed.

    [ Parent ]
    So what? CDS alert. (none / 0) (#185)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:12:23 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    well the point I was trying to make (none / 0) (#188)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:21:23 AM EST
    was that from what I have seen here since Obama's "refining Iraq stratgey" remark was a good number of Obama supporters that are of the opinion that Obama had a much more aggressive position on getting the troops out of Iraq (during the primaries) than Clinton did.  I never saw much difference between the two myself.  The only difference I ever saw was his actual use of the 16 month timeframe.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:28:00 AM EST
    Maybe you need to adjust your browser.
    Other differences (none / 0) (#152)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:59:19 AM EST
    I remember Obama talking about increasing troops 80-100k in Afghanistan.
     I was responding to the claim that she was different than Obama on this. And I have never had even a slight case of CDS. I voted for her and would have liked to see her as President.

    [ Parent ]
    Apologies. (none / 0) (#194)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:35:43 AM EST
    I must have been confusing you with . . . oh, no, he posted below.  Predictably.

    [ Parent ]
    Differ on private security (none / 0) (#203)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:43:56 AM EST
    corporations like Blackwater.  I wasn't clear.  I thought that the separate statements with Clinton in parenthesis in the second would make the point.

    I never thought the candidates differed on Afghanistan, just that there was a lack of knowledge on the part of some Obama supporters that he was bringing troops home.  His positions indicate he is shifting troops.

    Clinton and Obama differ on security corps in Iraq.  I happened to agree with Clinton on this one as I prefer accountability.

    [ Parent ]

    Although (none / 0) (#207)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:50:46 AM EST
    Her call to eliminate contract employees was seriously limited.

    The legislation requires that all personnel at any U.S. diplomatic or consular mission in Iraq be provided security services only by Federal Government Personnel.

    The rest of the 140,000 or so get to stay.


    [ Parent ]

    Not contract employees (none / 0) (#221)
    by waldenpond on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:28:23 PM EST
    I don't believe all contract employees (some are Iraqi citizens) need to be kicked out.  I am referring to the lack of accountability and cost of corporate security.

    There are a total of what? 180k civilian contractors providing everything including garbage collection.  I am talking specifically corporate 'security' contracts.  There are about 20-30k of them used by the DoD and other intelligence agencies.  They are the ones used to escort convoys of food for troops etc and are also the ones used to escort officials.  I want the US to use troops for convoy security because the corporate security personnel have no accountability.  If they aren't eliminated they should be subject to prosecution under Iraqi and US law.  Then there is the issue of cost.  Corporate security is costing twice the amount of troop security.  I, personally, want the profit motive taken out of the wars.

    [ Parent ]

    I Am With You 100% (none / 0) (#223)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:38:38 PM EST
    But neither Hillary or Obama are for that. Hillary was fine with Blackwater until Obama took a position supporting them. It was then she saw an opportunity to score political points by offering a band aid, as Blackwater is very unpopular.

    Her plan would eliminate 1400 or so private security forces.

    Here is some background.

    [ Parent ]

    At least she didn't flip-flop. (none / 0) (#243)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:38:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:44:59 AM EST
    This is exactly who Obama is dogwhistling to on Iraq, too.  He's not hinting at a move to the center, he's hinting at a move to the Beltway media position.  Lord knows there is no giant mass of centrist voters hoping the war drags on just a little longer.

    I assume you have seen the recent polling where voters declare by a 2-1 margin that the next President's priority should be "bringing the troops home" rather than "winning the war."  That's a pretty conclusive result, considering it's not like the numbers just got that overnight.

    The problem is that Obama laid out a pretty concrete position in order to win the bidding war in the Democratic primary and has been trying ever since to send out signals that he doesn't really stand behind it.  Voters pick up on the cues a lot more than they sit there and parse the precise language.  I'm so tired of listening to people who buy the "responsible" flim-flam and insist that as long as Obama continues to say he'll do the responsible thing, he hasn't shifted one iota.  The "responsible thing" could be literally anything.

    Who was it, James Carville, that advised Obama not to answer hypothetical questions on this subject?  Exactly so.  If you decide you want to change your position at some point, then change it, but up until that point stop advertising that you reserve the option to change it.  It just creates needless doubt and, other than Fred Hiatt, there is no constituency out there that wants to hear that Obama might not necessarily stick with the position he took in the primary.

    Carvill bugs the %$#@ out of me (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:51:53 AM EST
    but he is so right sometimes.
    "there is no such thing as a hypothetical presidency"
    such an easy answer.

    [ Parent ]
    The 2-1 ratio (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:07:01 AM EST
    is exactly what bothers me about all this. Obama isn't neutralizing McCain; he's neutralizing HIMSELF (in the time honored traditions of his party), on what should be favorable Democratic issue turf. Surely this is exactly the game McCain wants to play.

    [ Parent ]
    ah the usual contingent of "advisors" (none / 0) (#170)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:31:27 AM EST
    have struck again. why do democratic contenders always have the strums brazile etc screw with their campaign?

    [ Parent ]
    Well put (none / 0) (#76)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:40 AM EST
    The only question that remains is whether or not Obama's constant changing of position will be visible only to those who seek political news or to the wider voting public.  Of course, the Rethugs have plenty of material now for their sound-bite ads showing Obama as a "flip-flopper" and "waffler."  Kerry redux.

    [ Parent ]
    How well I remember (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:59:41 AM EST
    all the people, Democrats included, who said in 2004 that they couldn't figure out exactly what Kerry's position on Iraq was.  This is politics, and what's important is what people perceive your position to be, not what your position is in the view of your most starry-eyed supporters.

    Obama can insist all he wants that he's been 100% consistent on Iraq, but if people are questioning what your position is, you're doing something wrong no matter how unjustified you feel they are.  Mind you, I'm not naive enough to believe that Obama is actually puzzled by why people perceive an ambiguity in his position.  The ambiguity is obviously a very deliberate creation and, as a cynic who questions whether any Democrat will actually end this war in the foreseeable future, I find it extremely unwelcome.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama would help himself a lot (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:09:57 AM EST
    if he would lose the "uhhhhs."  They suggest a lack of firmness on whatever he's saying.  What happened to practicing a candidate on anticipated questions?    Cut and paste his positions from his website to a teleprompter, if they must, but the speech pattern is problematic and counter to sounding forceful.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:17:51 AM EST
    Obama tries to choose his words carefully, and like a good lawyer, he uses lawyer words ("inartful" is a great lawyer word") in order to leave himself wiggle room by appearing to commit on an issue without actually committing.  The only problem is that there's a difference between politics and law.

    Take campaign finance, where Obama pledged to "vigorously pursue" an agreement with his opponent to accept public financing.  Most people took that as a pledge to accept public financing if the other guy did, which was the intended effect.  But yeah, if we want to argue the point in a lawyer way, he didn't really commit to that, he simply said he would try to reach an agreement.  (Better still, "vigorously" is an unprovable matter of opinion and therefore meaningless, but it sounded good when he said it.)  So that's how Obama and his most zealous supporters can argue that he didn't actually break his pledge.

    In politics, though, what counts is the ordinary understanding of his words, not the outcome of some legal argument.  If President Obama starts going back on his word on any number of issues, people are going to be unhappy no matter how much wiggle room he left himself as a technical matter.  Count me as one who believes he should give up the cuteness already.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:28:40 AM EST
    I know this re his substance.  I think that is beyond fixing, as he has no firm positions, really.

    I'm talking about style, not substance -- about at least projecting firmness, if he is to win.  I know a lot of litigators, and they know what I mean.  In the courtroom of public opinion, he comes off as a law prof in a classroom, instead.

    [ Parent ]

    In politics PERCEPTION is everything (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    Don't think the majority of Americans are going to spend the time playing WORM (i.e. parsing to get to a favorable opinion) on Obama's statements. Agree, Obama is being too cute and it could come back and bite him in the a$$.

    [ Parent ]
    A4 ??? (5.00 / 0) (#224)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:38:40 PM EST
    are you in the UK?

    [ Parent ]
    it is so very apparent to anyone watching (none / 0) (#209)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:57:13 AM EST
    when he umms and takes so  long to select the "just right" word.  YOu can tell that he is doing exactly what you describe.  And, it has irritated me throughout the entire campaign.

    To me it makes him sound untrustworthy when he is being so overly cautious about selecting just the right word.

    [ Parent ]

    I used to love watching Blair (none / 0) (#229)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:19:34 PM EST
    on Prime Minister's Questions.  I don't recall any "uuuhhh"-ing at all.  But yeah, he picks the words carefully.  Just a lot faster and smarter than Obama does.  Not that that will keep one from being branded a liar, eventually.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you are right (none / 0) (#233)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:49:15 PM EST
    Really, I liked Blair a lot at first.  He's not just smart - he's funny and witty.  When he became Bush's lapdog I was appalled.  Blair is SO much smarter and better than Bush.  But it just goes to show that even someone like Blair can make a fool of himself.  I hadn't thought about the rookie thing, but that makes sense.  The reason that rookie Bush got the upper hand is that he's not bright and he is incapable of self-analysis and therefore thinks he is right.  Blair is capable of analyzing and thinking deeply, so he doesn't immediately think he is God' gift to the planet.  That may have made him hesitate, or take guidance from Bush since Bush seemed so sure.

    [ Parent ]
    the thing is the british parliament (none / 0) (#235)
    by hellothere on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:05:48 PM EST
    system and the pm questions instills a sense that you will need to answer for your actions in front of your peers. that along with other influences results in many of the british politicans actually quite verbal and able to support their actions much better than i see most american politicans. of course we have finegold, clark, the clintons and others. so we do have our well spoken polls. today sound bites and running a emotional pull is more the campaign and order of the day here.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#237)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    Things like Prime Minister's Questions are great.  I wish the U.S. did stuff like this!

    [ Parent ]
    yeah, its what people sound like (none / 0) (#191)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:33:51 AM EST
    when they think before they speak.

    Cant have that.

    [ Parent ]

    I love this (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:36:57 AM EST
    Even an "uh" becomes a positive, if you're far enough in the tank.

    [ Parent ]
    hey, I do it all the time (none / 0) (#202)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:43:01 AM EST
    so why should I criticize him. Makes me like him more.
    I guess you want the plastic packaged kind of candidate. Your choice.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep! (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    Anyone who doesn't say "uh" all the time is the plastic packaged kind of candidate!  

    Your comments really are unintentionally hilarious.

    [ Parent ]

    Brings up the question... (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    Hasn't he had enough time BY NOW to have thought out his positions on these questions?  Sheeee-it.  The fact that he still goes "uh" so frequently suggests that he still hasn't done his homework, still hasn't put in the time to really think about these issues, still is pandering because he doesn't trust his positions, still hasn't figured out whom he's trying to appeal to, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. Obama speaks before (none / 0) (#197)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:39:23 AM EST
    he thinks lately.  And then has to "refine" his "inartful," unpracticed statements.  And, as I said, good candidates (and good managers and good teachers and etc.) think ahead, anticipate questions, and prep for them.

    Maybe you ought to think before you type, Ben.

    [ Parent ]

    Bingo! (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:15:56 AM EST
    In our current discourse, sadly, perception IS reality. And that's exactly what BTD's been getting at the past couple of days, I think. If Obama is PERCEIVED as having flip-flopped on Iraq, it is just as bad for him as if he actually has done so.

    And there's another dynamic as well. Note the tack Hiatt's taking: Obama changed his Iraq position to conform to the new, rosier outlook over there. And why does this new situation exist? Becuase of The Surge (or so we are told) which St. McCain backed through thick and thin, defying the nattering nabobs of negativism (hat tip: S. Agnew, aka Inmate 84628). Not good.

    [ Parent ]

    honestly (none / 0) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:58:08 AM EST
    I think their list is so long and flip floping is so far down it they may never even get to it.
    they may not need to.

    [ Parent ]
    You may be right (none / 0) (#231)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    We're in for some ugly campaigning.

    [ Parent ]
    Did You See This? (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by creeper on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:31:48 AM EST
    http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/tuesday-phoning-it-in/

    Obama was supposed to be campaigning in Charlotte last night on behalf of Beverly Perdue.  His airplane had mechanical trouble out of Chicago and landed (for some reason I don't understand, it not being on the route) in Saint Louis at 9:51.  With all day to find alternate transportation to Charlotte, the campaign decided instead to phone in the speech.

    Which would've been great if he could have remembered the name of the lady he was campaigning for.

    Click the link to get mad all over again.

    Btw, diversion to St. Louis (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:15:02 AM EST
    is no surprise.  It's a major hub, so likely to be good for getting another flight to get on the way again.  Going back to Chicago rarely is a good option if you want to actually get on the ground, as O'Hare is impossible.  Can't tell you how many times we have had to circle and circle, waiting for clearance even on scheduled flights without an emergency such as this.  Not fun to be flying over your own home, almost a hundred miles north of Chicago, and wishing for a parachute -- but knowing it will be hours before you land, having missed a connecting flight, and hours before finally getting back to the home you saw below, hours before.

    If connecting through the Midwest region, avoid O'Hare and do Detroit or St. Louis.  Oh, and avoid Midwest Airlines now.

    [ Parent ]

    The news I heard said the (none / 0) (#138)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:41:20 AM EST
    trouble on the plane was highly unusual to happen in the air (it had happened on the ground). They are investigating.

    [ Parent ]
    The plane's nose kept drifting up. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:41:08 AM EST
    Remind you of anybody?

    [ Parent ]
    Good. That's Midwest Airlines (none / 0) (#155)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:05:55 AM EST
    which once was great but has been destroyed since it was bought out.  Being in its hq city, we flew it whenever we could -- but after a recent experience (hey, at least Obama took off on time and had working bathrooms), no more Midwest for us.  And it is cutting back on service by the day.  There's more detail on the cutbacks, for those who may have flown it before but had best be warned, as well as details on the problems on Obama's flight, btw, in the local media of the airline's hq; see jsonline.com.

    [ Parent ]
    It is possible (none / 0) (#145)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:48:56 AM EST
    that he got the name wrong, but it also seems possible that it is an inaccurate transcription.  I didn't find any source other than Fox News.

    [ Parent ]
    in any case (none / 0) (#156)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:06:14 AM EST
    it seems to be a growing tsunami of bad press for Obama these days.  And the campaign seems utterly ineffectual in responding to it.  If Obama continues running his campaign this way, all McCain will need to do is speak somewhat coherently, stand upright without tipping over and landing in the Mayor's lap and he'll forever be the "Straight Talking POW".

    I said up-thread that Obama's constant need to "refine" what he says has painted him into a corner where any attempt he makes to redirect the conversation will now be seen by some as "refining" which, in today's media narrative, is just another euphemism for flip-flopping.  

    Only "refine" and "inartful" are fancy words many rural, blue collar voters will raise their eyebrows at before deciding 'this guy has no clue what I need or want from a President'.  

    With all the other stuff in Obama's overstuffed closet (what we know now and what we'll find out come Fall), it wo