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Obama Denies He's Moving to the Middle

In Georgia today, Sen. Barack Obama today denied allegations he's moving to the middle, including on guns, the death penalty and Iraq.

"The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me"....

Obama blamed criticism from "my friends on the left" and "some of the media" in part on cynicism that ascribes political motives for every move candidates make. "You're not going to agree with me on 100 percent of what I think, but don't assume that if I don't agree with you on something that it must be because I'm doing that politically," he said. "I may just disagree with you."

Obama then went on to explain his views on faith and government. [More...]

"I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

So, he said when he talks about the idea of recruiting churches and other religious groups to provide community services through faith-based initiatives, as he did last week, "that's not something new. I've been talking about that for years now. I've been organizing with churches for years in the community. So the notion that somehow that's me trying to look more centered, more centrist, is just not true."

On guns,

He also raised the Supreme Court ruling that upheld the rights of individuals to bear arms and said: "I actually have said that I agree with that for years, even before the ruling came down." He said that doesn't contradict his view that "we've got decent controls over the use of illegal firearms in our community."

Small point, but he also supports controls on legal firearms.

Obama on his progressive views:

I am somebody who is no doubt progressive. I believe in a tax code that we need to make more fair. I believe in universal health care. I believe in making college affordable. I believe in paying our teachers more money. I believe in early childhood education,"

He clarified his position on Iraq:

opposed this war from the start" and "I have also consistently said that once we were in, we had to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in."

< What is DOJ's OPR Doing? | Obama's Statement on Disagreement With His FISA Position >
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  • Display: Sort:
    If it looks like the center (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Lahdee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:48:24 PM EST
    and it quacks like the center, then it's the center.


    Calling MO Blue to explain again (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:55:17 PM EST
    that it's not the center.  We-the-people are the center, and based on what we tell the pollsters re FISA, abortion, etc., we are to the left of Obama now.  

    So Obama is right of center, of the public, now.

    MO Blue, pls feel free to amend if I have not summarized well or have done so too succinctly -- in my apologia for my earlier comment when I so sloppily wrote of Obama moving to the center.  Mea culpa. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    C'mon... abortion? (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:00:44 PM EST
    That dog don't hunt.  100% from NARAL, three years running.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 10) (#21)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:06:50 PM EST
    that's because legislative ratings are based upon things like Obama's sponsorship of a bill providing for a mental health exception for late-term abortions, rather than his statement to the Christian magazine that there would have to be a "serious physical issue" for a late-term abortion to be permissible.

    The rating, however, does not make his statement go away, nor does it establish that he is not trying to have it both ways on this issue.

    [ Parent ]

    NARAL's endorsement of Obama (5.00 / 8) (#32)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:12:06 PM EST
    was a huge, controversial mistake. It fractured the group into regional and national pieces. The New York chapters were especially angry that Senator Clinton, who has a far more progressive record on womens' rights, was not endorsed by the national chapter.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, right (5.00 / 7) (#46)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:20:18 PM EST
    but I was talking just about the ratings, which are actually sort of hackish to be perfectly honest.  For example, one of the reasons many people were outraged over NARAL's endorsement of Lincoln Chafee is that Chafee voted for cloture on the Alito nomination, helping to break the filibuster.  NARAL's response was to simply refrain from scoring the cloture vote at all, scoring only the vote on confirmation, where Chafee got to cast a noble and meaningless no vote to preserve his record.

    I don't think any good progressive should take NARAL or its ratings seriously given their demonstrated predilection for gaming the system in order to make their preferred candidates score better.  Their defense of Obama on the whole "present" vote thing is another one of those "who are they kidding?" moments.  I just couldn't be more contemptuous of them as an organization.

    [ Parent ]

    NARAL Is a Joke (5.00 / 6) (#55)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:27:10 PM EST
    At least the national PAC is.  They sold their souls a long time ago.  But they sold cheap and the money ran out and so this year it was time to refinance with Obama.  Although I guess at least they were honest about their endorsement being because of the $.  That's more than I'd say about a lot of "progressive" groups.

    [ Parent ]
    NARAL lost all credibility with me (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by madamab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:56:31 PM EST
    when they endorsed Joe "Short Bus Ride" Lieberman. He said it was fine for women who had been raped to be denied the morning-after pill by "pro-life" doctors or nurses. "There are lots of hospitals in Connecticut - they can just take a short bus ride," he said.

    They are a terrible organization.

    [ Parent ]

    He was ASKED to make those present votes. (3.50 / 2) (#52)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:25:59 PM EST
    Learn the history if you want to be credible on this.  Planned Parenthood requested he vote present on them, and he agreed to.

    Re: ratings, they reflect votes, not rhetoric, and I'll take votes as the standard 11 times out of 10.  Obviously they're an imperfect mechanism, but then... I guarantee you can't cite me a bad vote of Obama's on choice.

    [ Parent ]

    I've Learned the History (5.00 / 5) (#59)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:29:29 PM EST
    and I don't believe it.  It runs counter to common sense and the memories of others, including other legislators, other abortion rights supporters, and at least one friend of Obama's.  The current president of Planned Parenthood of Illinois decided to cover for Obama and, as with everything having to do with Obama, much of the "progressive" blogosphere bought it without asking any questions or applying any critical thought to it.  

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:32:57 PM EST
    "Everybody is lying if it contradicts my confirmation bias!!"

    Priceless.

    [ Parent ]
    It is priceless (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:36:42 PM EST
    considering YOU are the only one claiming "everyone is lying."  BDB offered the far more plausible explanation that the current president of Planned Parenthood of Illinois is lying and everyone else is telling the truth.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not claiming anyone is lying. (2.66 / 3) (#98)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:54:44 PM EST
    I think some people are letting their bias cloud their reasoning, but that's not "lying."

    [ Parent ]
    Let me get this straight (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:05:56 PM EST
    The "other legislators, other abortion rights supporters, and at least one friend of Obama's" who disagree with Planned Parenthood's story about the "present" votes are letting their bias cloud their reasoning?

    [ Parent ]
    "Do not recall" = "disagree"? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:09:18 PM EST
    Pretty high standard, there.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#67)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:35:17 PM EST
    The story that an organization tells about one of the candidates it supports is not "the history."  It very much annoys me to see that particular fairy tale constantly sold as the gospel truth.

    Gee, let's put on our thinking caps and look at that story for just a second.  We're told that there was a coordinated strategy where solidly pro-choice legislators were urged to vote "present" in order to provide cover for legislators in more conservative districts who wanted to oppose the bill without incurring political risk.  You agree that that's the story, right?

    Okay, so pretend you're a Blue Dog, trying to persuade your conservative constituents that you're with them on abortion even though you voted against abortion restrictions by voting "present."  Gosh, would your claim be more persuasive if all the pro-choice liberals voted "present" just like you, or would it be more persuasive if you could point out that you actually voted DIFFERENTLY from the pro-choice liberals?

    Just let it sink in for a moment.  If all the liberals voted "no," you could tell your constituents that you didn't agree with the liberals, but you voted "present" because you had some other random issue with the bill.  But if all the liberals voted "present," how does your own "present" vote help you defend yourself with your conservative constituents?  When the liberals vote the exact same way you did, guess what, you look more liberal and not less liberal!

    [ Parent ]

    I didn't say it's a good strategy. (3.50 / 2) (#85)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:42:01 PM EST
    Frankly, it seems pointless to me (cover with... whom, exactly?).  But I think it's hilarious that some people have decided that Illinois PP are just liars!!! because they just know that Obama is anti-choice.  

    Whatever Obama did, for whatever reasons, Planned Parenthood likes him very much as a candidate.  Seriously, that gives you no confidence on his choice bona fides?

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#113)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:12:07 PM EST
    Of course Obama is just fine on choice.  Even on his worst days I don't see him as any worse than a solid Dem.  I don't expect any acts of pro-choice heroism out of him, to be sure.

    I have decided that Illinois PP are telling a fairy tale, not because I "know Obama is anti-choice," but because the strategy they allege simply makes no sense.  It's like Obama's claim that he voted against a 30% cap on credit card interest rates, thus leaving no cap at all in place, because he thought the cap ought to be lower.  You can tell any old story about why you voted a certain way.  I'm not required to believe it if it's totally implausible.

    What I see from Obama is not so much an unacceptable amount of centrism so much as a serious lack of political courage, the kind of thing that has increasingly grown to characterize the Democratic Party as a whole in recent years.  "Present" votes on thorny abortion bills are an example.  Skipping the MoveOn/Betrayus vote was another (and another case where I'm not required to buy the silly cover story).  Refusing to be photographed with Gavin Newsom in an election year is another.

    I just see spinelessness as the major problem with the Democratic Party of late, and I see Obama as bound and determined to take us further down that road.  Believe me, on the occasions when Obama decides to stand up and defend a controversial Democratic stance because it's the right thing to do, I cheer for him just as much as you do.  It just doesn't happen enough.

    [ Parent ]

    Cool. (1.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Pegasus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:15:45 PM EST
    I'm not asking for enthusiasm by any means.  God knows mine comes and goes (it's not really here today, BTW; I'm just killing time on a slow work day).  But this idea that Obama might compromise on abortion is so silly that it gets me riled up.

    [ Parent ]
    You're male, right? (3.50 / 2) (#178)
    by pie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:33:20 PM EST
    But this idea that Obama might compromise on abortion is so silly that it gets me riled up.

    Pardon me if I couldn't care less about your anger issue.

    [ Parent ]

    Being pro choice is being pro family (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:19 PM EST
    Supporting choice is not just a XX thing.  

    [ Parent ]
    I don't see the statement as anti choice (none / 0) (#189)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    He says he supports a womens right to choose.  Again the issue is feeling bad vs. clinically depressed.  First this is sorta a non issue, since generally speaking women who have abortions in the third trimester are doing so because 1)their health is at stake or 2) the child will will not live.  (these are wanted pregnancies that went wrong)

    But lets assume those things aren't the issue. An abortion after about week 26th week is not just a simple matter of choice.  The child has a working heart, lungs, brain, etc.  Many of children born this early die, and many more have tons of health issues, but many survive and lead very healthy lives.  Even something as significant as schizophrenia doesn't change the fact that the fetus is less fetus and more child at this point.

    [ Parent ]

    Why do you so distrust doctors (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:18:06 PM EST
    that you think that they would approve and do abortions on any basis but what the law specifies?

    [ Parent ]
    I don't distrust doctors (none / 0) (#204)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:39:24 PM EST
    I am 2 years away from being a doctor. (don't ask what type- I haven't figured that out yet:)

    [ Parent ]
    If you are a medical student (none / 0) (#214)
    by Mari on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 01:01:26 AM EST
    you have a lot to learn about medicine. Enlighten us about pregnancy and choice after you have finished your OB-GYNE rotation and you learn a little bit more about the doctor-patient relationship.

    [ Parent ]
    C'mon. Have you really missed (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:24:42 PM EST
    thread after thread on this, this week?  Let's not have another one; the host asks that we reserve blog bandwidth by not rehashing what is available via searching.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly... (none / 0) (#220)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:54:11 AM EST
    and that's why often TL gets tiresome!

    [ Parent ]
    Got it right (5.00 / 10) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:08:13 PM EST
    Calling right wing positions the center is erroneous. Polls indicate that the majority of American do not support telecom immunity and we want the government to use warrants. Opposition to FISA is an American issue and not a left, progressive or even Democratic position. Accurate reporting based on factual data would indicate the actual "center of public opinion" supports many of the issues that are erroneously being described as positions of the left or even "far left."  By adopting the meme that Republican positions are moderate or the "center", we are promoting a picture that our positions are outside the mainstream of public thinking (i.e. outside the norm).

    [ Parent ]
    Actually he hasn't (none / 0) (#210)
    by cal1942 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:02:43 AM EST
    moved to the center at all, just as he says.

    He's been to the right of center for some time if anyone cared to listen without degenerating into projection.

    Just as MO Blue says; Obama's positions on various issues are nowhere near the center.  An Obama Presidency would keep government in the position it's been most of the time since 1981.

    [ Parent ]

    Jeralyn, are you buying what Obama (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:49:17 PM EST
    is selling today?

    He's absolutely right (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:27:45 PM EST
    about this part: "The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me"

    [ Parent ]
    posted the same comment further down (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:28:29 PM EST
    he has never deceived us.


    [ Parent ]
    Did you catch (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:16:22 PM EST
    the fact that Obama used a "shill" to ask the question:

    The Illinois senator was responding to a question from a self-described "reformed Republican" who said he worked for Democrat Bobby Kennedy four decades ago and thanked Obama for restoring "that faith."

    "You had an interesting week of being accused of flip-flopping, which is mostly nonsense," the man said. He then asked Obama to restate his Iraq position, and Obama used the opportunity to dispel the idea he had generally changed his stances.

    AP Article Link

    I mean WOW!!! This questioner hit the Trifecta plus the bonus.

    • A reformed Republican

    • a Bobby Kennedy man

    • Obama restored his Bobby Kennedy faith

    • The bonus: Calls BS on the flip-flopping

    Did this guy miss a trick? I mean if you were cynical you'd swear he was scripted and coached on delivery by Obama himself.

    Being cynical on what I read in the article I think that is exactly what happened. Who wouldn't?

    [ Parent ]

    Obama weasels like the worst: Agree 100%? Huh? (3.66 / 3) (#151)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:08:30 PM EST
    Obama blamed criticism from "my friends on the left" and "some of the media" in part on cynicism that ascribes political motives for every move candidates make. "You're not going to agree with me on 100 percent of what I think

    First of all, criticizing Obama for his stated or ever shifting positions does not catapult the critic, skeptic, doubter or person loudly going OH COME ON to being a "leftist". (Whatever the frack THAT is by today's shifting measure.)

    The issue isn't ascribing political motive NOR agreeing with him "100 percent" on his "thinking".

    It's calling him out on his LYING.

    On his saying one thing one day, and the exact OPPOSITE the next depending on the dollars he wants from the audience he is conning for their support and cash.

    It's not an intellectual argument but one of trust that he asked for in the absence of a proven record, and which he disgraced by then claiming people should have known better than to trust the likes of him.

    So, no, there's no weaseling around where the "problem" lays here. It's not with the audience but the speaker.

    [ Parent ]

    What A Joker Obama Is (4.00 / 4) (#146)
    by talex26 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:57:38 PM EST
    He thinks people will buy that?!!!

    Yeah right, I'm not moving to the middle we just disagree! Sure thing.

    Obama has so many clever 'outs' one can only surmise that he is well practiced at doing this his entire life.

    I mean this kind of stuff isn't made up in a speech room by speech writers. This is Obama speaking off the cuff. These 'excuses', 'redirections', 'reframing' - call them what you want they are part of his fabric - and that is scary.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, this is really what Obama (none / 0) (#216)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:15:29 AM EST
    is all about... using the language to reframe discusion so that he can slip and slide around issues hopefully without stepping on any toes. You don't really need spine to do that, just a lot of wormlike agility.

    What does Obama have a solid position on? Obama will fit in very nicely with the Nancy and Harry show. McCain's alternatives are frightening. Fortunately he will not be elected. But still Dems will diddle around for four years and accomplish nothing. And Bush and Cheney will snicker as they slither off FREE to dwell under the rocks they slithered out from under seven and a half years ago.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama is correct (2.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:01:06 PM EST
    Yes, he is correct in saying that "The people who say this haven't apparently been listening to me". I have closely followed what he said during the primary campaign, there has been no shift in the positions that he mentioned.
    There are many HRC supporters who think that Universal Health Care means Free Health Care. Has HRC ever said that UHC means Free Health Care? The answer is "No". If HRC won the nomination and some of her supporters became disappointed when they found out that Universal Health Care did not mean Free Health Care, would it be fair to say that HRC duped her supporters? The answer is NO! People should listen carefully to what the candidates say.


    [ Parent ]
    you have got to be kidding (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by kimsaw on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:47:14 PM EST
    this isn't about Clinton. Where's the info on people believing UHC would be free from Clinton. Trying to tie Clinton's position on UHC to Obama's flip flopping is beyond ridiculous.   He can't even keep track of what he says from moment to moment. How many times can one candidate clarify a position on how many different  subjects. It's always someone else's fault and its never Obama's words. Now its the press's fault, at least it wasn't his grandma. It's all rather ironic. His words are catching up to him.

    I've listened and heard from the very beginning, every debate and every teleprompter moment. I still don't believe a word the guy says. Sorry the bottom line is Obama doesn't like what the people who are listening have to say. Perhaps he should remember that "words matter". No pun intended.

    [ Parent ]

    Try again (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by mwb on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:53:54 PM EST
    "I am somebody who is no doubt progressive."

    Talk about politico speak.

    Come on say it, Senator.  Just say it right out loud.

    "I am a progressive."  

    You won't spontaneously combust.  Maybe your nose might grow, but we won't know until you start make direct statements.

    h/t to BTD: (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:14:36 PM EST
     
    He does not control his own statements?


    [ Parent ]
    Channelling MoDo making up a John Kerry quote (none / 0) (#170)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:43:37 PM EST
    Whom among us would doubt I'm progressive?

    [ Parent ]
    Fair enough. (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:54:32 PM EST
    On some of the issues he cites it is, in fact, true that the people who convinced themselves that Obama is a liberal messiah were kidding themselves.

    On other issues, his position is really all things to all people -- like supporting the right to bear arms and restrictions on that right.

    And on others, particularly telecom immunity, he seems be shifting his position very substantially.

    those gun postions are NOT (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    "all things to all people". They are, however, a pretty rational and intellegent position.

    NRA types do NOT want restrictions on guns. Hard-line anti-gun types DO NOT recognize a personal right to bear arms.

    Obama's position - that there is a personal right, and communities have the power to regulate that right, is a specific position - similar, btw, to Dean's position in '04 - which sorta became the accepted Dem position over the past few years.  

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:10:31 PM EST
    It is not a "specific position."  It is an attempt to claim all the territory other than the two extremes.

    Very few people, including "NRA types," believe that there should be a completely unfettered right to own guns.

    Distancing yourself from an extreme position that barely anyone holds in the real world ("I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything") is a very standard political gambit designed to convey the message "I'm totally mainstream, just like all of you."  But please don't be naive enough to confuse it for a specific position.  It's the exact opposite of specific.

    [ Parent ]

    it is not a traditional Democratic position (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    or the Brady Bill would have survived the latest SCOTUS review. When DiFi sponsored that bill, she held the views Democrats hold today about guns.

    By slithering around with words and phrases that are no doubt focus grouped before delivered,Obama gives the impression that he is willing to split the baby in two to get the vote.

    When Bill Clinton stood up to Newt Gingrich and it resulted in shutting the government, he stood for something. I'm that kind of Democrat, take a stand, let the chips fall where they may.

    The recent Democrats are way too timid for my tastes, and frankly I don't like it.Its Fear. D**it the Republicans did it to us!#~

    It makes Obama a disappointment to those of us who claimed Democrats and were proud of the line  that defined us from the Republicans.

    Obama's "new politics" is the way he wants it to be. Some of the 18 million that voted for Hillary don't agree - the reality based ones. His approach is the same strategy that GWB has used to have the weak government we have now, stradled with debt and loss of prestiege not to mention the people's trust.

    An example; when the Bush adminsitration called it the Clean Air initiative. It called for easing up on rules so that plants spewing junk in the air would be allowed to do so through relaxed enforcement. That meant that the air would not be cleaner but dirtier, but the name stayed. It had the desired perception but the reality was different.

    I think the image based candidate with the big bankroll, should pay attention to what this all means. He can't buy everyone's vote.

    [ Parent ]

    I think it will be more accurate (none / 0) (#152)
    by Politalkix on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:11:59 PM EST
    to say that BC and HRC managed to survive Republicans instead of saying that they stood up to Republicans. Surviving is different from standing up without backing down. Surviving to fight another day is not a bad trait at all, IMO.

    [ Parent ]
    what is not specific about it, pray tell? (2.00 / 0) (#39)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:17:12 PM EST
    There are many people, not just extremists, who were against the personal right to bear arms. Including nearly half the SC.

    The NRA most certainly is opposed to almost all regulation of guns. Where have you been sleeping?

    You may think that half the SC is extreme, as are the tens of millions of loyal NRA supporters, but thats your problem. Obama's postion, and mine, occupy a very specific place on the spectrum of ideas on this subject.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, a "very specific place" (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:27:25 PM EST
    somewhere between 0% and 100%.  Congratulations on managing to call the entire middle of the spectrum "specific."

    The NRA is not a purist organization on gun rights - check their amici brief in the Heller case if you doubt me.  Moreover, it is a serious mistake to assume that all NRA members share the exact same set of beliefs.

    For example, nearly 90% of Americans agree that it's okay to ban ex-cons or mentally ill people from owning a handgun.  Okay, Senator Obama, congratulations on establishing that you're not part of the extremist 10%!  Way to stake out a "specific position."

    The idea that Obama has a "specific position" on guns is a joke, and not a very funny one at that.  Saying "I'm not at either extreme" is not a specific position.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm getting the sense (1.00 / 1) (#164)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    though you dont come out and say it, that you basically agree with Obama on this issue.

    What a torturous reality. What extraordinary contortions you must go through in order to deliver the necessarily robust denunciation of him, while hiding the fact that you agree with him.

    [ Parent ]

    There's nothing to agree with!!!!!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    Every single person in the country, other than the extremists at the 0% or 100% end of the spectrum, "agrees" with Obama's incredibly vague position.  I can't believe you think you have a gotcha here.  It's like saying that if you believe abortion should be legal in some cases, but not in all cases, presto you agree with Obama!  Do you truly not see what a vacuous argument this is?

    [ Parent ]
    calm down Steve (2.00 / 1) (#184)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:58 PM EST
    Life is not one big gotcha game, and that is not my purpose here, though it does seem to be yours.

    Your claim that the postion that the 2nd amendment confers an individual right is something that almost no one holds is patently untrue. It is, rather, the standard postion for probably half the people that have ever thought about the issue. Until the recent decision, it was the reigning Constitutional interpretation, dating from a case back in the thirties. It is also the current opinion of almost half the SC. How can you state, with a straight face, that it is a very rare extreme postion?

    Seriously, I am becoming absolutely convinced that you would say absolutely anything so long as it comes out as a criticism of Obama. Your postion here is completely divorced from the real world.

    Same with community regulation of the right to bear arms. If OBama supports the Chicago laws, and thinks the DC laws (an almost absolute bar) go to far, then you have a pretty clear indication of his precise stand. It is, once again, patently absurd to claim that this is an  ubiquitous position. There are tens of millions of people who would fight to the death, and do so with their checkbooks, against the type of regulation that Obama supports. Others, like almost all the pols in DC City, support very strict regulation, without any recognition of the right to bear arms.

    When you combine these two positions, the number of people who hold both is even smaller.

    I dont know why you are pursuing this argument - it really seems totally ludicrous.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (none / 0) (#186)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:04:56 PM EST
    Could you link to the post where I say that the individual right position is extreme?  Don't spend the rest of your life looking for it, you won't find it.

    What I said is that the position that there can be no restrictions whatsoever on the right to bear arms is an extreme position.  I gave the example of how nearly 90% of Americans agree that it is permissible to bar ex-felons and the mentally ill from owning a gun.  I think it was pretty flippin' obvious from that example that I was arguing the "no restrictions whatsoever" position is extreme, not that I was arguing the basic individual right position is extreme.

    Obama is saying nothing more than that he disagrees with both extremes in the debate, both the "guns should be completely banned" extreme and the "there should be no restrictions whatsoever" extreme.  He is saying nothing more than that.  It is exactly the same as saying that abortion should be legal in some cases but not all.

    Trying to claim that I agree with Obama because I, like most Americans, am somewhere between the two extremes of the debate is such a stupid argument I can't believe you are continuing to push it.  Guess what, we all agree that war is wrong in some cases, and that war is justified in other cases.  Hooray, we all agree on the war issue!

    [ Parent ]

    yes, sorry (none / 0) (#191)
    by tben on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:27:51 PM EST
    I miswrote that. Of course, your position is that the lack of an individual right is extreme. Obama upholds an individual right, and you claim that EVERYONE, or nearly everyone agrees with that. Only extremists disagree. Thats patently wrong, as I explained after that mistake.

    And of course, pointing to the fact that even an NRA member might want to keep guns out of the hands of a psychotic mass murderer is hardly relevant to this discussion. The issue is whether the level of restrictions on guns that Obama says he supports is at anything near a 90% level. I really cant beleive that you beleive that.

    Do you agree that there is an individual right to bear arms? If not, you disagree with Obama. Does that make you an extremist? Careful, I betcha that the majority of people 'round here reject the individual right.
    If you do agree there is such a right, then you agree with Obama, and disagree with tens of millions of Americans.

    Do you support the type of gun control that Obama is on record supporting? If so, then you are disagreeing with tens of millions of Americans.

    And they are not the same tens of millions as in the earlier question.
    Your claim that Obamas position represents what 99% (or some large number like that) of Americans believe is completely ridiculous. And I sense you know that.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:42:28 PM EST
    In an earlier age, people might have saddled up the horse and buggy and traveled from miles around just to gaze upon your disaster of an argument.

    Saying that you're not at either extreme of the gun debate is not a specific position, or a position at all, no matter how many times you claim otherwise.  It's something a politician says to duck the issue and try to get everyone to believe that he agrees with them.  

    Saying that you believe a total ban on handguns is constitutional, and then turning around and saying that the earlier statement was inartful and of course you believe in a right to bear arms, is a change of position no matter how many supporters try to rationalize it.

    And arguing that someone who is somewhere between the two extremes is trying to run from the fact that he "agrees" with Obama, because Obama is also  somewhere between the two extremes, is weaselly and I wish I could say I expected better from you.

    [ Parent ]

    He's actually been pretty consistent (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:23:25 PM EST
    on guns. He takes a decentralizing approach - that restrictions should be locally appropriate and locally imposed. It isn't enough for the NRA but it's pragmatic enough to appeal to most other people.

    His FISA position is a real outlier. The only thing that makes sense to me is that the existing leadership who've been compromised by their actions on this all along really really want this bill. Who knows - maybe their support for him in the primaries was premised on his agreeing not to rock the boat on it.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:41:05 PM EST
    aside from that questionnaire in the 90s (the one filled out by an anonymous aide without his knowledge, that didn't express his true position) and the statement from his office that "the DC gun ban is constitutional" (which was also made by an anonymous aide, and also didn't express his true position) yeah, he's pretty much been on board with the mainstream Dem position on guns.

    [ Parent ]
    Is that inconsistent? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:07:55 PM EST
    He said he's long believed in the individual right to bear arms and that the locality, DC, could pass the restrictions it needed to meet local needs and conditions. Nothing inconsistent at all in that that I can see. Maybe you'd care to point out where the inconsistency is instead of just lazily insinuating that there is one.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:15:13 PM EST
    if the statement that the DC gun ban is constitutional wasn't inconsistent with his current position, why did he feel the need to take it back?

    Frankly, I understand that the standard Democratic position is to give localities the flexibility they need to deal with their own circumstances, but I think extending that to say "it's fine if a locality wants to ban handguns altogether" is going a little too far - as Obama's current stand recognizes.  If Democrats are going to play this game in order to gain some credibility with pro-gun voters, I don't think they can ever be on board with a complete ban on handguns.

    [ Parent ]

    Huh? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:25:58 PM EST
    Acknowledging that the SC has now ruled that a total ban is unconstitutional is not being inconsistent, it's accepting reality. Pre-Heller, not unconstitutional (his opinion and his preference), post-Heller, acknowledging what the court has ruled. What do you expect him to do, keep insisting a total ban is constitutional now that the SC has ruled it isn't?

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, come on! (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:32:38 PM EST
    He felt entirely free to disagree with the SC about the death penalty.  He was free to disagree with it about the DC handgun ban and explicitly said he did not.

    The pretzel-making around here is getting pretty amazing.


    [ Parent ]

    Because Heller (none / 0) (#147)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:00:33 PM EST
    didn't close the door on his existing position, as Scalia made quite clear himself - the question was the breadth of that particular restriction. His response was specifically on that point, that the DC restriction had been ruled to be too broad and more carefully crafted restrictions now have to be devised.

    I'm not saying no political positioning was going on in his response, but if you're looking for pretzels all you'll see is pretzels.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:37:37 PM EST
    He wasn't a news reporter informing us what the Supreme Court had ruled, he was stating his newfound position on gun control.  In fact, he had no problem whatsoever saying the Supreme Court got it wrong in the child rape case, so the argument that "gosh, he's bound by what the Supreme Court ruled" hardly holds water.  I guess that was like 24 hours previously or something, though, so I see why this would be different.

    If you understand the facts of what Obama said on the gun ban and you still want to argue that he didn't change his stance, you're through the looking glass and I'm not going to go there with you.  But understand this is the sort of argument that gets people around here infuriated with Obama supporters, because they seem to be creating their own reality just like the Bushies.

    [ Parent ]

    Newfound? (2.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:07:52 PM EST
    I took it as a pragmatic acceptance that the SC has ruled on the extent of the ban and that since even Scalia himself left avenues all around the ruling for local regulation one can shrug and still get to the local results needed without making a fuss. I don't know how you can read his statements as any less. I think he missed an opportunity to move the window on the gun issue, and critiqued him for that, but to say "you're through the looking glass if you think he didn't change his position" - well, all I can say is to say that you seem to be pretty far through the looking glass yourself and creating your own reality like the Bushies. (Do you like it when I say your nasty words back to you?)

    [ Parent ]
    Shrug (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:45:19 PM EST
    It bothers me exactly as much as Jonah Goldberg arguing that liberals are the real fascists, a statement with equal credibility.

    Kinda funny how you're trying to claim there has been no change in Obama's position from an earlier statement that Obama himself rejected.

    [ Parent ]

    I find your argument very peculiar (none / 0) (#212)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 12:20:57 AM EST
    Saying he believed before the ruling that the DC ban was constitutional is in no way contradicted by what he said after the ruling:

    "I have always believed that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to bear arms, but I also identify with the need for crime-ravaged communities to save their children from the violence that plagues our streets through common-sense, effective safety measures. The Supreme Court has now endorsed that view, and while it ruled that the D.C. gun ban went too far, Justice Scalia himself acknowledged that this right is not absolute and subject to reasonable regulations enacted by local communities to keep their streets safe. Today's ruling, the first clear statement on this issue in 127 years, will provide much-needed guidance to local jurisdictions across the country.

    "As President, I will uphold the constitutional rights of law-abiding gun-owners, hunters, and sportsmen. I know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together to enact common-sense laws, like closing the gun show loophole and improving our background check system, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Today's decision reinforces that if we act responsibly, we can both protect the constitutional right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."

    He's putting his pragmatic view forward that it changes nothing for his position. I see NO change in position in terms of his approach to the issue. Do you see him embracing that ruling? I don't. I see him saying it's not going to make one whit of difference.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#218)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:44:21 AM EST
    I don't think you can believe both in an individual right to bear arms and in the right of government to enact a total handgun ban.

    The ruling certainly made a heck of a difference in DC, not to mention any other locality that might have considered passing a total handgun ban.

    [ Parent ]

    I would expect him to say that he disagreed (none / 0) (#145)
    by sassysenora on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:45:51 PM EST
    with the Supreme Court's decision.

    given Obama's recent statements, was Obama's spokesperson being less than truthful when he told the Chicago Tribune that "Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional"? was Obama being less than truthful when he said "The notion that somehow local jurisdictions can't initiate gun safety laws to deal with gang bangers and random shootings on the street isn't born out by our Constitution,"? was he being less than truthful when he "voiced support for the District of Columbia's ban on handguns"

    if the above are true, why did he tell ABC News "Well, Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to the briefs and looked at all the evidence." (i.e., I'm not going to answer your question)? shouldn't he have known about the case before having a spokesperson say that Obama thought the DC ban was constitutional or saying that he supported the DC ban?

    now Obama says that "I don't know what my aide said but I've been very consistent. . ..  in fact what I've been saying consistently is what the Supreme Court essentially said today."

    Obama has NOT consistently been saying that he is opposed to the DC gun ban or that it is unconstitutional.  

    lawyers and politicians often say that they think the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution is wrong. I.e., that something the SC thinks is unconstitutional is, in fact, constitutional. or that something that the SC thinks is constitutional is, in fact, unconstitutional. it's part of their responsibility, especially as a Senator and President. i expect Obama to actually be consistent and say that he disagrees with the Supreme Court ruling because he supports the DC ban. he can say that, as president, he'd enforce the Supreme Court ruling even though he disagrees with it. that's what the POTUS (or candidates for POTUS) usually do when they disagree with a SCOTUS ruling.

    [ Parent ]

    You seem to be saying (2.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:31:57 PM EST
    you think the fact that he believed the DC ban was constitutional and then recognized it was unconstitutional after it was ruled that way is some sort of lie/ flipflop/ inconsistency on his part. Heller doesn't keep local jurisdictions from initiating gun safety laws and other restrictions, as Scalia himself said.

    How about that Obama sees the ruling has no significant impact on his base position, that localities can set their own restrictions (now short of the most extreme position, outright ban in the home)?

    [ Parent ]

    Pure speculation (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:43:09 PM EST
    But still an interesting thought.

    I've always wondered if there were some dirty Dems afraid of being caught up in an impeachment drag net.

    [ Parent ]

    Except. . . (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:52:21 PM EST
    that restrictions should be locally appropriate and locally imposed.

    that his current position (not the original one) on the DC ban goes against your view of his position on guns.

    And, in fact, his statements are general enough that they could either encompass or oppose the DC gun ban -- and Obama has, within the last few months, held both those positions.

    [ Parent ]

    I think you're wrong about that (none / 0) (#155)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:18:58 PM EST
    his current position (not the original one) on the DC ban goes against your view of his position on guns

    Can you give me a link to what you mean specifically?

    [ Parent ]

    Actually his musings on the "crisis" in (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:01:14 PM EST
    Social security was another outlier for me. Yesterday there was a long discussion here on it and I learned a lot.  Then we had another outlier with the abortion issue when he said a woman should make the decision with her physician, pastor and family members. Sort of like a committee heavily populated with men.  The outliers are looking like stars in the sky at night.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, let's acknowledge that many of us (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:25:09 PM EST
    have women ministers.  But yeh, I'm not sure that Obama thinks so.

    [ Parent ]
    Correct... (none / 0) (#222)
    by dutchfox on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 03:08:18 AM EST
    his position is really all things to all people

    Bill Clinton, the "people pleaser," did the same thing.

    [ Parent ]

    Look (5.00 / 12) (#6)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:54:59 PM EST
    I am just not going to buy that some anonymous aide from Obama's campaign decided on his own initiative to say "Obama thinks the DC gun ban is constitutional," and that the campaign never saw fit to correct that for however many months until it suddenly became "inartful" in light of the Supreme Court's ruling.

    No one is fooled by all these "nuanced" positions that Democrats always adopt in an attempt to find common ground with every single person in existence.  "Gee, I believe government can do good things, but I'm not one of those people who believes government is the solution to everything!"  Well golly Senator Obama, who IS one of those people, aside from cartoonish caricatures of liberals you might find on the Rush Limbaugh show?

    Look, say whatever you think you gotta do to get elected, I'm not foolish enough to expect different.  Just don't insult my intelligence along the way by pretending that you're not doing it.

    Has anyone noticed (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Landulph on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:24:43 PM EST
    that in his rhetoric since clinching the nom, Obama is doing what Bill Clinton was (largely unfairly) accused of: creating a straw-man caricautre of "lib'ruls" derived from right-wing propaganda mill sources, which phantom he can then distance himself from to appear "moderate" (by the village barometer). In doing this, he is simply reinforcing right-wing frames. Hard to believe Lakoff is supporting this guy.

    [ Parent ]
    I do believe that Obama will stand firm (5.00 / 11) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:55:30 PM EST
    on his faith based initiative program and that religion will be stressed as much if not more in his administration than it was in the Bush administration.

    It is sad that while I have major doubts that he will stand firm on issues that are important to me,  I'm convinced he will remain constant on an issue I oppose 100%.

     

    "I Believe In Faith" (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by MsExPat on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:19:30 PM EST
    Yeah, this part of his speech is right out of the Reagan-Bush hymnal:

    "I'm not just somebody who is talking about government as the solution to everything. I also believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in faith."

    Government can't solve our problems--check
    It's your responsibility, get tough you get no help from the government (unless you're a mortgage bank or a telecom)--check
    Confidential to evangelicals: I believe in an awesome God!--check

    (Speaking of that last one, how does one "believe" in "faith"? Think about it. It's an empty phrase. One has, or doesn't have faith. )

    [ Parent ]

    Yikes, I missed that -- thanks (none / 0) (#158)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:26:33 PM EST
    as it's a perfect example to use with my students, when I try to get them to stop writing such silliness.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm trying to figure out what believing in faith (none / 0) (#174)
    by jawbone on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:59:40 PM EST
    means--faith is believing without proof, right?

    So, what does it mean to believe in beleiving without proof?

    Or, is he using faith to mean his religious belief; ergo, he can believe in his belief.

    faith--Noun

    1. strong belief in something, esp. without proof
    2. a specific system of religious beliefs
    3. complete confidence or trust, such as in a person or remedy
    4. allegiance to a person or cause
    5. bad faith dishonesty
    6. good faith honesty [Latin fides trust, confidence]

    Words, just words....

    [ Parent ]
    "Faith is the substance (none / 0) (#217)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:44:21 AM EST
    of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen." But this is not the issue. The issue is the separation of Church and State. Faith based Initiatives is fundamentally wrong. It gets government involved with questions of who should get how much and for what purposes. This breeds corruption in both the government and religious groups.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, MO Blue (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:03:39 PM EST
    He didn't sit in that church for 20 years for nothing.

    [ Parent ]
    and yet (5.00 / 0) (#172)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:52:42 PM EST
    somehow he seemed to miss some pretty provocative sermons.

    Quite the puzzler there.

    The impression Sentor Obama leaves me with is that he seems to have the sae problem wth being truthful that our present President seems to have. Then again, that's what happens when you choose the strategy to try to be all things to all people, instead of being who you are and leting the chips fall where they may.

    [ Parent ]

    I think he's always been center (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:56:13 PM EST
    It's the "change" I've never bought into. But he's no more center than anyone else. As between centrist candidates, since Hillary isn't the nominee, he's the best we are going to do. I'm okay with it and him.

    My preference would be an electable candidate with Kucinich's views. That just isn't in the cards.

    Back when I was in college (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:58:12 PM EST
    there was a local candidate who ran on the slogan, "No Worse Than The Rest."  Of course he won.

    [ Parent ]
    As lomg as people keep accepting (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by Anne on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:04:12 PM EST
    mediocre candidates by voting for them, the worse they are going to get.

    And if we don't get serious about public financing, the only candidates we will have will be fund-raising behemoths, who also happen to be mediocre.

    [ Parent ]

    He got all the college kids (none / 0) (#219)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 02:53:39 AM EST
    in astonishing numbers by the millions all across the country through the use of digital toys and he did it all with slogans and jingles. What a testament to our time.

    go team go, go team go, go team go, USA, USA, USA, yes we can, yes we can, yes we can...

    The problem is, this isn't a football game. This is out country's future at stake.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm waiting for the "I'm the Lesser (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:28:00 PM EST
    of Two Evils" campaign poster.  I hear it often enough as an argument -- much as I still can't figure out why it's okay to be evil at all, even if less so.  Evil is evil.  And petty evil is the most insiduous.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm on board for an electable Kucinich-thinker (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by RosieScenario on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:13:05 PM EST
    Keep hope alive.

    [ Parent ]
    You, too? Every time I took (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:31:35 PM EST
    one of those polls to see to which candidate I was closest, it was Kucinich.  When that would come up in conversation with colleagues, some were quite surprised.  But my spouse and others who know me better were not surprised at all.

    That just told me how much some people misread many of us based on superficial characteristics and/or what they want to see.

    [ Parent ]

    I've always put O in the Mod-Lib (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by brodie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    category, moderately liberal on most key issues.  Lately he's been emphasizing, or refining in some instances, the moderate part of his political profile.

    But as someone has wisely noted elsewhere, he misstepped today in his remarks about moving to the center.

    1. Don't restate your opponent's accusation.  It just re-enforces the false meme.

    2. Don't deny it -- that tends to make him look weak and too defensive.  Maybe there's some there there, folks might conclude.

    3. With a Major League Flip-Flopper like McCain as an opponent, he should be spending his time going after McCain's numerous and objectively incontrovertible flip-flops.  Attack the other guy -- make him defend.

    Otherwise, imo most of the recent flop flippery against O involves (excepting FISA) some pretty marginal stuff, for the most part.  Carving out or re-emphasizing some differences with the liberal base on some fairly mid-level stuff.  In the end, it probably won't be even close to fatal for his chances, though he needs to stop now and begin restating and asserting his more progressive stances, starting with the economy.

    I remain confident about our chances and for fairly major change next year.

    Oui, nous pouvons ...

    [ Parent ]

    Center-Right (4.88 / 9) (#24)
    by BDB on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:07:43 PM EST
    I  think Obama is actually a Center-Right candidate.  His initial economic stimulus stressed tax cuts far more than Clinton's (center or a bit center-left as a candidate) and Edwards' (center-left this year).  His healthcare does not include mandates and is not truly universal (it's centrist at best, being less progressive than either mandates or single-payer).  His embrace of right-wing framing on abortion rights, praise for Republican presidents (remember his promise to return us to the foreign policy of Reagan, Nixon and Kennedy?), praise for deregulation, and his use of Christian faith also tend towards the right more than the center or center-left.

    It wasn't that many years ago that Obama would've fit comfortably into the Republican party except for the color of his skin (no small matter, of course).  I'd say he would've been right at home in the party under Eisenhower or Ford.  

    Basically, under Obama/Reid/Pelosi/Daschle we have the choice between a center-right party or a far-right party.  In a Democratic year, that's damned depressing.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (none / 0) (#89)
    by oneangryslav on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    But the media the whole political establishment will never allow a Kucinich to inhabit the White House.

    I'm a supporter of Obama not because he's a messiah, but because out of the whole bunch he's the least bad.  Plus, I think that he's ultimately a decent person, which I can't say about many of those running for office.

    [ Parent ]

    I may vote (none / 0) (#221)
    by weltec2 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 03:00:11 AM EST
    for Obama. I have not yet decided. But I simply cannot support him. I have not yet gotten over Hillary. Then again, I haven't gotten over Kerry or Gore either.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm shocked (none / 0) (#123)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:23:17 PM EST
    Kuchinich is borderline marxist.

    [ Parent ]