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That Was Then, This Is Now: Combat As Qualification Edition

Saying this was not outrageous at one time:

[Fox's Mort Kondracke said] "It does not qualify you to be the commander in chief of all the Armed Forces because you were a Swift boat commander." And Kathleen Parker: "[M]ilitary service neither qualifies nor disqualifies one for political office."

This year it is. Read Jamison Foser's whole post. Get a feel for what political cowards Dems are and what they take from the Media and the GOP.

And a note. In my threads, asking how people will vote is a deletable offense. Do not do it anymore.

This is an Open Thread.

< On Flip Flops And Contrast | Why Dems Lose >
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    The Kerry swiftboat attacks were (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:47:55 AM EST
    really low, however, Kerry's non-response was worse, I thought. Kerry came out at the convention "reporting for duty" and then cowered. I think nothing is off base (with the exception of one's children)during a campaign. Everything s/b examined, questioned (if needed) and answered (each side). If a candidate thinks something is off-limits, say so. Hey, let's have an honest campaign one of these years. What an insane idea@! I saw nothing wrong w/what Clark said and glad he didn't back down. Obama did!

    What I quoted was NOT an attack (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:53:05 AM EST
    on Kerry. The questioning of his military credentials and the veracity of his reocrd with lies was.

    that was swiftboating. What I quoted was not. It was perfectly appropriate then and no one thought it outrageous.

    It is not an attack now when applied to McCain.

    Parent

    Ironically (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by daring grace on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:51:33 PM EST
    for McCain I think the aggressive questioning of Kerry's military credentials (as opposed to the scurrilous lies and distortions of them) opened wide the door for this to be a legitimate question in a way that got tiptoed around before:

    Does (or how does) military service qualify someone for the presidency?

    Of course, we saw the diminishing of military service as sacred, unquestionable asset with the despicable savaging of Max Cleland earlier by those allegedly military-revering Repubs.

    Parent

    The media took it as an attack (none / 0) (#3)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:55:12 AM EST
    as referenced by the hoopla. I did not find it as an attack, just another piece to the puzzle. Anything to do with military service probably from now on when it is used, will probably come to mean swiftboating.

    Parent
    The swiftboaters were so tenaciously deceitful (none / 0) (#24)
    by hairspray on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 04:52:59 PM EST
    that they were able to make white into black right before everyone's eyes.  I found myself searching for evidence that what they said were lies.  The responses by Kerry et al.were so muddled (the media was partly to blame) that the whole issue became confused.  I never believed them, but I could see how some who had no use for a vietnam protester might.

    Parent
    Media also knowingly repeated debunked lies ... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Ellie on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 05:17:05 PM EST
    ... as a fraudulent "fair and balancing" and, IMO, cheesy way to whip up fluff "controversy" instead of reporting on substantial stories and issues.

    The Bush admin priss-mouthed baloney that it was wrong to "politicize" stories during an election season should never have been allowed sway.

    The worst admin ever did nothing BUT politicize ["stories", issues, government, institutions] that neutrally belong to the people, not the Republican party, and whatever the free and unfettered media asks on behalf of the public that endows them with special rights and privilege is fair game.

    Team Kerry and the Dems should have smacked back at the media -- on camera -- every time a zombie lie rose from the dead and walked again. For good measure, the Dem "side" should have demanded equal time once the media 'moderator' had time to correct the falsehood, or tacked on something pointed like, "But we know that as a Bush supporter you're not going to correct this debunked information."

    They should have. They didn't. They apologized. They're idiots.

    (Sadly, we have two parties getting each others' backs, a collusive media, a crony-stacked judicial arm and corporate privateers drawing a curtain around themselves and sucking out the marrow of the public trust, who's kept immobile and under continual surveillance so as not to disrupt the locust feast.)

    Parent

    Great Article (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:24:26 PM EST
    The insanity of how this upside down topsy turvy media dissembling slips by without massive public outrage, is a testament to our blase comfort with the bald face lies we absorb hundred of times a day through exposure to corporate advertising.

    I can't think of any other reason these outrageous fictions are  tolerated. McCain's image is made for teevee as is Obama's. But the all time master, imo was JFK with Reagan coming in a close second.

    The only comfort is that people are only half awake and do not really buy any of it compared to the reality that McSame will be another Edsel, aka GWB.  

    I have been thinking a lot about (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by bjorn on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:31:20 PM EST
    this lately and what we can do about it. Everyone is so numb to everything.  We all live in our little cubicles and only seem to react to something if it directly effects our own comfort level or salary or whatever.  I am not sure how we got here but is does seem like we are all sleeping through the sh!t of what our government and country have become.

    Parent
    Yes... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by magisterludi on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:38:17 PM EST
    We have behaved like Good Germans.

    Parent
    that's what I thought about the media (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:56:57 PM EST
    throughout the primary.

    Parent
    "Reality TV" (none / 0) (#11)
    by daring grace on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:53:17 PM EST
    we're all numbed to the 'concept' of reality if we rely on the MSM and even to the blogs as well for our sense of truth.

    Parent
    Combat experience (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:29:43 PM EST
    kept women from higher ranks in the military.
    If it's important for a President we'll never have a woman President, much less a DFH Prez.

    Excellent! (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:52:02 PM EST
    BTW, what is the site policy - "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"?

    My policy for my threads only (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:55:41 PM EST
    That is how it will be, in both directions.

    No urging you to vote for Obama and no urging ME and others NOT to vote for him.

    Parent

    in a different thread,, where I will be deleting it:

    Well that is interesting (3.66 / 3) (#15)

    by talex on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:39:50 PM EST

    because all over the Liberal blogs the subject of how people will vote, or vote at all , is a topic of much discussion.

    And why should my asking, for example, how you will vote be unacceptable when you opened the door to that topic by first saying your vote for Obama was "unshakable" and then stating on your own free will that his FISA actions may be a "deal breaker" for you?

    If you bring up a topic Armando then you are opening it up for discussion.

    And speaking of discussion - there have been many posts here between posters discussing how thy would vote and asking others how they will vote so your silly threat makes not sense in that never have I seen those kind of posts stricken. BTW your threats to me and others is unbecoming to this blog. I think you know that.

    To continue; People have posted to Jeralyn if she is going to change her vote or not vote on the heels of some of her posted complaints about Obama and she didn't threaten to delete their posts. I don't think what you are threatening here is within her rules.

    Again what you post is open for discussion. You have freely and openly discussed your vote as have other. And in fact you have questioned other people on their votes. So if you can ask so can anyone else.

    And their are no separate board rules for me and rules for others. As long as I and other people stay within the posted rules by Jeralyn then we are withing the rules. Rules BTW that you break often as you have in the last few days.

    Now quit trying to bully me. I will not be bullied.

    to be sure (none / 0) (#23)

    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:50:24 PM EST

    This rule applies to everybody in my threads. No one can ask you or berate you to vote for Obama either.

    But I confess my preference is for you to NOT participate in my threads at all.

    but I do assure you your questioning on voting will be deleted.

    Complain now to Jeralyn please so that you can see that I can enforce my rule in my threads.




    Parent
    I was more concerned with the 'Don't Tell' part (none / 0) (#28)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 09:34:00 PM EST
    Am I not permitted to disclose how I intend to vote? Or at a minimum, that I reject a certain argument for voting a certain way?

    Parent
    BTW folks (none / 0) (#18)
    by talex on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:15:42 PM EST
    in Armando's comment below that was not the complete discussion. I have no problem with what Armando posted of mine but he did leave out several posts of both of ours that were part of that discussion. I'd have no problem with his posting all of what I said. He probably has a problem posting all of what he said though as it has been scrubbed from the original thread.

    Parent
    Military service / combat (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by cmugirl on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:54:01 PM EST
    This was supposedly a requirement even before John Kerry.  Anyone remember how Bill Clinton was pillored becuase he "dodged the draft" and went against a fighter pilot who had to bail out of his plane (GHWB) and a wounded veteran (Dole)?  While he still won those elections, we had many days of conversation dealing with military service.  GHWB and Dole's problems were that they seemed out of touch, so their military service didn't help them.  Today, McCain seems to connect with more people and Obama seems out of touch to many (even Dems and former Dems), so McCain's military service and POW narrative may have a greater impact this election than in previous elections.

    And JFK sunk PT 109 (none / 0) (#19)
    by Cream City on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:18:43 PM EST
    singlehandedly with his incompetence, as I recall one of the attacks on him in '60.  It's just that other attacks -- on his Catholicism, especially -- got a lot more attention then and from historians since.

    Parent
    vy a duck? (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by cpinva on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:57:29 PM EST
    sorry, low-hanging fruit!

    the issue isn't "does military service alone qualify you to be president?", it's "does screeching that your military service is being dishonored, when it's actually the polar opposite." qualify you to be president?

    i'd say that, so far, mccain wins this round, foaming at the mouth at windmills. it is a thing of beauty, that all the media, in their cosmic ineptitude and complicity, have been swept up in.

    BTD, what's that you were saying, about sen. obama being the golden media child? lol

    Military Service = Racism? (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Grace on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:42:08 PM EST
    This is the first election where we have had a black candidate facing a white candidate this far into the race.  

    The black candidate has issues that cannot be brought up because everyone screams "Racism!"  

    The white candidate has Military Service that cannot be brought up because everyone screams "Patriotism!"

    I think McCain's military service is a leveler against Obama's race.  

    Venus won Wimbledon again! (none / 0) (#4)
    by bjorn on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:23:19 PM EST
    5 times now

    Mid East Peace Tour (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:58:59 PM EST
    And they were, indeed, basic, relating to our expectations for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Then one of us mentioned Hamas, and the exchange that ensued went something like this:

    "Vait, vait. Vat's zee connection between a political movement and food. Vy hummus?"

    We exchanged astonished glances. "Hamas," we explained, "is a Palestinian Islamist political movement. Hummus is a food."

    "Ya, but vy hummus? Yesterday I had to throw away my pita bread because it vas dripping hummus. Unt it's too high in carbohydrates."

    The Hamas-hummus confusion went on for several minutes. Then, the interviewer declared: "Your conflict is not so bad. Jennifer-Angelina is worse."

    Link via War & Piece


    My thoughts on the stuff we're not supposed to be (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:22:16 PM EST
    doing now...


    I think it would be very tedious if every single thread devolved into a "who ya gonna vote for or not vote for" war.

    At the same time, when you get a group of people together who all agree on an issue, it's perfectly natural for discussion to move away from the issue itself, and gravitate towards what should be done (or not done) to pursue the goal.

    Now I delve deeper.  It seems to me that because sites like No Quarter now exist (which I visit by the way!!!!), there also exists some pressure on a Dem Supporting blog to not let themselves, by virtue of fighting for specific issues, be associated with the dirty and divisive PUMAs.

    Here's something controversial:  Also, I think PUMAs themselves would like to exploit some issue activism for their own ends.   (I come to this conclusion because I don't think anyone's ever gone too far out of their way to argue that Clinton would be vastly different than Obama on FISA).

    Anyway, because all of these other tensions exist, one does feel compelled to caveat fighting for an issue with the disclaimer: "I will vote for the Democrat."

    In any other environment, that disclaimer would go without saying.

    BUT....

    I still believe this environment was not created by a Clinton supporting contingent who finds Obama unacceptable.

    I still believe this environment was created by a group of bloggers who said things (and still believe it's acceptable to say such things) while fighting for issues that make the things said on this blog look like, well, polite nudgings by mildly dissappointed people.

    So some irony is not lost on me at least.  That disclaimers now have to be made to placate some people who have, historically, been known to be much much worse in terms of their divisiveness.



    That all may be (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:33:56 PM EST
    But it has nothing to do with my decision on MY threads.

    Please note that the rule I imposed is of my threads only, not for those of TChris and Jeralyn. Presumably that battle you refer to can continue apace right here at Talk Left, just not in MY threads.

    Parent

    I think the new rules haven't been written down. (none / 0) (#21)
    by EL seattle on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:22:33 PM EST
    9/11 changed everything.

    But, as a society, we haven't really decided exactly how everything has been changed.

    I think that we're making it up as we go along, but on one's really keeping a clear record of the new "rules". (As opposed to new laws, or course, which are written down even if a lot of people don't often don't seem to read them and realize exactly what they say.)

    You mean the left flip-flopped one way (none / 0) (#26)
    by daryl herbert on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 05:44:02 PM EST
    and the right flip-flopped the other way, just because the candidates changed?  No!  Say it ain't so!

    I'm left with just one question: in light of this information, how am I going to vote?

    Oops.  Don't answer that.

    Media Darling (none / 0) (#27)
    by Lora on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:16:38 PM EST
    I predicted that the media would favor McCain after Obama won the nomination.  The neocons have an organized campaign strategy and that includes the media.

    Good luck, Senator Obama.  You're going to need it.

    My threads (none / 0) (#29)
    by Coldblue on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:01:24 PM EST
    So are you suggesting that we comment on YOUR threads on another blog?

    Not that you have ever done that...

    Spineless Democrats (none / 0) (#30)
    by Lora on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:16:03 PM EST
    Did I say that one reason for the Spineless Democrats could be that they were making deals with the devil?  Why yes, so I did.

    Here's an example.

    (emphasis mine)

     In exchange for another "blank check" for a year of war, the Democrats have wrested from their Republican colleagues and the White House a host of domestic benefits - tens of billions of dollars in educational funding for returning GIs, a thirteen-week extension of unemployment insurance, millions for Midwest flood relief and other laudable projects.