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Fourth of July Afternoon Open Thread

Enjoy your day. This is an Open Thread.

Update (TL): I've added the graphic and will repost some thoughts from a prior year: Given our President's stunning disregard for the rule of law and that it's the Fourth of July, I'm wondering what thoughts you all have on patriotism and liberty and on how this Administration has driven a stake in the heart of both. For opposing the war, we're called unpatriotic. Our civil liberties have been disregarded by everything from the NSA warrantless monitoring program to no-fly lists, the Real I.D. Act and federal immigration raids on workplaces.

One of the best tools we have is the ability to cast a vote and take our country back. 8 Years of Republican rule must come to an end. November can't come fast enough for me, and I'll be voting for every Democrat on the ballot. I encourage you to do the same.

(Again, Big Tent Democrat started this thread, the graphic and update are mine. J.)
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    Happy Fourth (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Lahdee on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:20:52 AM EST
    On this day in 1863 John Pemberton surrendered Vicksburg to US Grant believing he could get better terms on a Holiday. He did.

    The Fourth of July was not celebrated in Vicksburg for many years after that.

    And Mr. Lincoln? He spent the day urging Gen. Meade to finish off Lee's army.


    i know a woman over 80 in (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by sancho on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:54:20 PM EST
    vicksburg who wears mourning black on the 4th of july in remembrance.

    Parent
    Enjoy the festivities.... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:27:39 AM EST
    everybody, and this one goes out to all of you on this day of celebration of our independence....We Gotta Be Free.

    So Just Like Pepsi... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by DoggieDaddy on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:49:00 AM EST
    It's all gas and no substance.

    Seconded. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:07:53 PM EST
    Biked to third shift the night of the downtown fireworks.  Traffic is always a nightmare then.  Went down the street of a troubled neighborhood with residents setting off bottle rockets and other fireworks.  Contemplated how often people remarked they heard something like a firecracker when they got shot.  Was glad to get to work at the children's hospital, where the ER docs were standing by to treat the depressingly predictable injuries.

    Fingers are surprisingly fragile things.  It just takes a little damage to connective tissue to destroy a joint.

    Charlie Crist getting married in the fall (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:10:52 PM EST
    He popped the question to Carole Rome yesterday.

    Someone really wants to be VP.

    To A Woman? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:06:56 PM EST
    Err... nevermind. :P

    But, congratulations to the couple. From interviews I've seen with him on TV -- esp. on CNN with Wolf Blitzer, where he never fails to mention that Wolf's mother is a very happy resident of his state -- he seems like a good guy.

    My relatives and friends in FL, all liberals, actually have good things to say about him too; though I've not checked in with them recently in light of (offshore) Drillgate.

    Parent

    He's more tolerable than many Republicans (none / 0) (#130)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:40:07 PM EST
    I'll say that for him. I'm never going to agree with him on most policy issues, but he is a low-key guy and easy to take.

    He offset his offshore drilling sins with a big buyout deal for Everglades restoration, which from what I read he pretty much came up with himself, so I am inclined to be charitable for a while.

    My big gripe with him is the usual Republican obstinacy on taxes, even when it means gutting the university system.  

    Parent

    Bride-to-be is a costume company heiress (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:07:28 PM EST
    Causing one dog-park cynic to remark this morning "Aren't they all?"

    Parent
    hehehe (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:12:07 PM EST
    Patriotism (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by nellre on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:24:25 PM EST
    My hero is Thomas Jefferson. His writings reveal how he and our other founding fathers invisioned the future for America. He also cautioned us to what could destroy it.
    My patriotism is a love for that vision, and effort toward keeping it in focus.

    I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be.

    Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.



    A hottie of the Revolution, my eHarmony soulmate (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:34:25 PM EST
    Enlightened, brainy foodie, master gardener, alpha inventor -- a pasta machine! how cool is that? -- and putterer and able to yap about it at a diverse table.

    I'd marry TJ (and keep Che on the side). Actually, either option wouldn't be bad.

    Damn, it's after 3pm and I still haven't had breakfast cause I've been doing brunch, lunch and blunch for everyone else.

    I've been so busy flipping I haven't had a chance to flop on the nearest lounge and chew on something more nutritious than occasional insects or the sticky fist of a random baby.

    Menu today: Japanese style buckwheat Okonomiyaki (sweet or savory pancakes w/choice of toppings), Freedom Muffins* and a cavalcade of grill and griddle fare .

    *It's my twist on the Corporate Clown McMuff or Corporate Ruling Class'ammitch.

    Parent

    Also ... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:56:26 PM EST
    "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.

    The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
    And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers [and candidates!] are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance?

    Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
    time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

    Parent

    Heros of the Revolution (none / 0) (#195)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:46:18 PM EST
    We could stand a few today, or even one ...

    "The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable-and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
    It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! " -- Patrick Henry, 1775



    Parent
    Commenter Andersen @ Corrente posted this link (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:32:56 PM EST
    to Jan Crawford Greenberg's take on Obama's takes on recent highly controversial Supreme Court rulings, then discusses his recent remarks about late-term abortion and no need to consider "mental distress."  

    Guess who on the SCOTUS agrees with that? Scalia and Thomas...so far.

    OK, I am well and truly scared of our Dem presumptive nominee.

    In a recent interview, Obama appears to back away from his long-stated positions on abortion (and a proposed federal abortion rights law he had co-sponsored), repudiate 35 years of accepted Supreme Court rulings on the issue and embrace a view on abortion restrictions that has been expressed on the Court only by Justices Thomas and Scalia.

    Obama's remarks are printed verbatim in the interview, published yesterday in Relevant Magazine. Read them  -- there's no mistaking that Obama says he no longer will support what's long been a cornerstone of the abortion rights debate: The Court's insistence that laws banning abortions after the fetus is viable (now about 22 weeks) contain an exception to allow doctors to perform them if necessary to protect a pregnant woman's mental health.

    Interesting addition to Jeralyn's post and the comments below. And, of course, what's a woman's mental health in comparison to having her bear a baby to term? As used to be said in the pre-Roe days: If men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacred rite.

    Just remember that Jan Crawford Greenburg (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:37:38 PM EST
    is seriously tied in with the Federalist Society, though it is not immediately evident.

    You will not get straight analysis out of her.  Period.

    Parent

    Does mental distress (2.00 / 0) (#62)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:34:46 PM EST
    equal mental health?

    Given that "mental distress" is not some precise medial diagnosis, but can literally refer to anything, and need have nothing whatsoever to do with any real health issue, are you basically claiming that there should be no restrictions whatsoever on late-term abortion?

    Are you seriously trying to claim that Obama's position, accuraltly stated, is one that is held only by people like Thomas and Scalia?

    Parent

    If you don't like late-term abortions (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:25:40 PM EST
    then you are free to not have one.

    Parent
    Simple answers to simple questions (5.00 / 6) (#94)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:01:49 PM EST
    ...are you basically claiming that there should be no restrictions whatsoever on late-term abortion?

    Yes

    Are you seriously trying to claim that Obama's position, accuraltly stated, is one that is held only by people like Thomas and Scalia?

    Yes.

    This has been another edition of "Simple Answers to Simple Questionbs".


    Parent

    the first (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:10:53 PM EST
    answer is, imho, a perfectly legitmate opinion and position. I just wanted to know whether that is what was implied by the argument here, as it seemed to me to necessarily be.

    The second answer seems extraordinarily distant from the reality that I percieve as I look across the American political landscape.

    Parent

    Do you actually believe that a licensed (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:29:36 PM EST
    physician would terminate a viable 3rd term  pregnancy if a woman walked into a clinic and said she had "mental distress?"

    Parent
    Of course not... (5.00 / 4) (#127)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:35:40 PM EST
    it's a right-wing meme just like so much of the abortion debate is.

    "I mean, if those pesky wimminfolks had their way, they'd all be orderin' up abortions like we order chicken dinners! Lord knows they don't know what to do with their very ownselves unless we menfolks tell 'em!"

    The next time a man tells me what I can do with my own ovaries, I'll start talking about mandatory vasectomies. I hope that will shut them the f*ck up.

    Parent

    of course not? (none / 0) (#135)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:47:08 PM EST
    I dont follow your logic. Please explain.

    You too seem to imply that there would be something very wrong with such a late term abortion for frivolous reasons. Right? I mean, why else would you say "of course not"?

    So what is wrong with Obama saying the same thing that you seem to be implying? And, of course, what would be wrong with enforcing a law against such rare occurances?

    I am not sure how the little "wimminfolk" quote fits into this. There are many serous people, including (gasp) women, who feel it is entirely proper to have such very late term abortions, that do not endanger life or health, be illegal.

    As I try to figure out what exactly your postion is, it seems that you think the practice describe should never happen, but no man should have a role in passing a law to that effect? Does that summarize it?

    Parent

    republican talk (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:53:04 PM EST
    There are many serous people, including (gasp) women, who feel it is entirely proper to have such very late term abortions, that do not endanger life or health, be illegal.

    yeah, they're republicans. or they're people wanting to impose their religious convictions or morality on others. who cares what they think? they're are also lots of them who hate gay people, etc.

    Parent

    Doctors have morals too, you know? (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:16:10 PM EST
    No doctor is going to give a woman a late term abortion just because she wants one.  That would be like cutting a healthy leg off a person just because they would prefer to be an amputee.  It just ain't gonna happen.    

    Parent
    but grace (1.00 / 1) (#191)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    the issue is not what most doctors would do. Most people have morals. Most people dont go around stealing or murdering. That is not an argument against having a law against the activity - even if only a very few ever break that law.

    Parent
    Doesn't matter. (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:46:24 PM EST
    That is not an argument against having a law against the activity

    You don't get it.

    I repeat: You don't get to say what I do with my body.

    You're not going to win this one.

    Parent

    I have no interest in (none / 0) (#200)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:51:10 PM EST
    telling you what to do with your body.

    Now why dont you actually track what we are talking about and focus your comments on the relevant issues at hand.

    Parent

    Wow. (5.00 / 2) (#209)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:59:06 PM EST
    You aren't getting it.

    It's none of your business what a woman does concerning her body.

    Any woman.

    If you're married to one, she may consider your opinion, as will a daughter for a few years.  If you have a mother or grandmother, she also might listen.

    But each is her own person who doesn't need someone to legislate what happens to her body.

    It's as simple as that.

    Parent

    Regardless of your feelings about abortion- (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by PamFl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:36:37 PM EST
    I don't believe that ANY MALE has the right to control a woman's physical, mental, or emotional health in ANY way. That includes the 8 male Supreme Court justices and male politions.
    Give them an inch, and they will take a mile.

    Parent
    Should I answer tben? (3.00 / 2) (#141)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:54:12 PM EST
    Seems to me it would be a waste of time.

    Parent
    You Probably Should (1.00 / 1) (#143)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM EST
    Or he'll downrate you for no reason.

    He loves those 1s and 2s.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#148)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:02:11 PM EST
    Troll downratings do not concern me. :-)

    Parent
    I think you're right (none / 0) (#142)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:55:37 PM EST
    tee hee :-) (none / 0) (#146)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:01:20 PM EST
    Madamab....NO...you are correct. Tben (none / 0) (#202)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:52:24 PM EST
    is on here everyday either baiting the commenters or insulting them, sometimes both and then feigns ignorance (although not completely sure it is feigned).  Welcome back...

    Parent
    That's what I was thinking too... (5.00 / 0) (#147)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:01:51 PM EST
    There is no way a doctor would terminate a viable late pregnancy for "mental distress" unless there was something more to it.


    Parent
    Mental Distress (4.40 / 5) (#166)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    Is a broad term that covers different mental health issues.  Having worked near the mental health field, I am familiar with the terminology...

    Mental Distress...generic (anxiety disorders, manic depression, schizophrenia, etc)
    Mental Distress... wikiMental Distress... Veterans PTSD

    Mental Distress covers a broad range of mental health issues.  My familiarity with the term... and active mental health event.

    The concern over Obama's position for me... what physical health reasons would he use as criteria, what mental health issues would he use as criteria... is a full-blown, suicidal schizophrenic event legitimate or not?  Where is the line?  My belief is the line should be determined by the woman and her doctor.

    Parent

    As I said... (5.00 / 0) (#170)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:26:06 PM EST
    they're changing the framing.

    We will not allow any return to coathangers.

    Parent

    well, that is not the law (none / 0) (#175)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:31:35 PM EST
    AS I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, the states do have the right to ban post-viability abortions, so long as there is an exception for mental and physical health. Right?

    So it is not now a question simply between a woman and her doctor - the doctor must satisfy the state that the post-viability abortion is medically necessary.

    Do you object to this current state of affairs? Do you think there should be no legal oversight whatsoever, until birth?

    Or do you support the current state of affairs and just fear that Obama is playing into arguments made by those who want to erode the current state of rights?

    Parent

    At last! (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:49:02 PM EST
    Do you object to this current state of affairs? Do you think there should be no legal oversight whatsoever, until birth?

    You got it, dude.

    Parent

    I support the woman (3.66 / 3) (#203)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:53:13 PM EST
    making the decision.  Obama's statements were contrary to a state having the right to set limits with exceptions to the physical and mental health of the woman.  I don't fear Obama is playing into arguments, I understand that he disagrees with the law....

    His words were that..... In an interview this week with "Relevant," a Christian magazine, Obama said prohibitions on late-term abortions must contain "a strict, well defined exception for the health of the mother."

    Obama then added: "Now, I don't think that 'mental distress' qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue....

    I believe it should be left to the woman as the legislation regarding the issue would be impossible to manage.  What is ok, what isn't and who decides?  Not me.  The issue of morality is personal... I do not believe in imposing my morals on a woman who makes this decision for herself.


    Parent

    but the issue is... (none / 0) (#154)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:07:29 PM EST
    should they be prosecuted if they did.


    Parent
    No, that's not the issue, actually. (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:12:53 PM EST
    Or it's an "issue" of your making.

    You won't win this one.

    Trust me.

    Parent

    win what? (2.00 / 0) (#169)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:25:27 PM EST
    Have you read the article that we are supposedly discussing? It relates to Obama's comments about the mental health exception (which he supports) to the ban on late term abortions. He merely mentioned that he did not think the exception should be construed so broadly (any mental distress) that it would effectivly legalize all such abortions.

    That seems to be much less an issue than many here seem determined to make it, and I wonder why that is.

    So yes, many people here seem to think that these type of abortions are wrong - no doctor would  ever do them. Obama seems to agree with them. But if some doctor did do one - well, should that be allowed? Should he be allowed to claim that there was some danger of "distress", and that be enough to render the otherwise illegal abortion legal?
    That IS the question.

    And I am just exploring these ideas. I would probably come down not too far from your position, but I do think it interesting to think about what people beleive and why.

    Parent

    Yep! (none / 0) (#177)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:32:27 PM EST
    Performing late term abortions is a very specialized field.  It's much more risky than a first trimester abortion.  Most doctors don't/won't do them.  

    Parent
    And it's all about (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:39:44 PM EST
    saving the life of the mother when the baby is not viable.

    But this isn't where they're going, of course.  It's an attempt to make all abortion illegal.

    You don't get to tell me what I can do with my body.

    Happy Independence Day.
      :)


    Parent

    not many, but some, yes (2.00 / 0) (#126)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:34:40 PM EST
    especially if it were unambiguously legal.

    But it is an interesting question. By asking as you have, you imply that maybe there is something wrong with that. Right off, that seems to put you to the "right" of some of the commenters here.

    And more to the point - if that is something that no physician would ever do, then what is wrong with Obama saying that it shouldn't be done?

    Parent

    Not that I think you'll absorb this, but (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:46:43 PM EST
    what is wrong with Obama saying that it shouldn't be done?

    A woman's personal moral decisions about abortion are none of your business, Obama's business, the government's business, or anyone else's business.

    What an eclipse of history we are living through these days. We have heard all of these talking points and fought against them all before. It just goes round and round.


    Parent

    ok, I am just (none / 0) (#138)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:51:55 PM EST
    interested in where people really stand on these issues. It really is quite complicated, and lots of people, in my experience, act as if their position - not just on the surface, but down to first principles - are shared by large number of people, when there really is a lot of differneces on all the levels.

    So basically, would it be correct to say that your position is that the only legal rights or standing involved are the mothers - until birth, or cutting the cord, or some time around then? The fetus has no standing until it breathes on its own?

    Parent

    Read (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:48:16 PM EST
    this, and focus, if you will, on what is said here:

    Eight years after the anti-choice movement first introduced "partial birth" abortion legislation in the U.S. Congress and state houses across the country, it is still not recognized for what it is: part of a carefully crafted, national strategy to ban all abortion.  It's easy to understand why anti-choice zealots portray the bans as narrowly drawn for the limited purpose of stopping a certain late-term abortion procedure. The mystery is why many pro-choice leaders and the mainstream media have been slow to expose the reality that nowhere in most of the bills is there any reference to stage of pregnancy - not viability, not trimesters nor weeks of gestation. A simple look at the legislation reveals that calling these bills bans on late-term abortion is factually inaccurate.

    The term "partial birth" abortion cannot be found in any medical dictionary because it is a political term that anti-choice zealots made up as part of their public relations campaign to stigmatize all abortion. When talking about the bans, advocates use graphic language about late-term abortion that is different from anything found in the legislation itself. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), which represents most ob-gyn specialists, has rejected these bans, which fail "to use recognized medical terminology and fail to define explicitly the prohibited medical techniques it criminalizes."

    Just for starters.


    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:22:04 PM EST
    I always wonder how you could have a "partial birth".

    Parent
    this strikes me as having nothing whatsoever (1.00 / 1) (#145)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:00:58 PM EST
    to do with the topic under discussion.

    We are not revisiting the so-called-partial-birth abortion question. The issue is late term abortions - and yes there is a time factor mentioned in the very comment that started this thread - and the question of whether the effect on a woman's health is to be defined so broadly as to encompass "distress" of any kind - i.e effectivly making any late term abortion, for any reason, legal.

    This has nothing to do wiht "partial birth abortion". Pay attention.

    Parent

    Dismissive and ignorant. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    What a winning combination.

    Parent
    Uh huh. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:16:24 PM EST
    They've just changed the framing.

    Parent
    You have no idea what you (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:51:53 PM EST
    are talking about. You pose a ciruclar argument in your last thought.  But more to the point, do you know of "some" physicians who have actually aborted live fetuses and then smothered them as they took their first breath when there was no medical justification for the abortion? If you believe that you really don't know what you are talking about.

    Parent
    i am not sure how you define circular (none / 0) (#151)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:05:56 PM EST
    I think my last line makes perfect sense.

    And the issue is not aborting live fetuses either. Geez people are you guys actually reading the original comment and the link, before you start spouting off about my comments?

    The issue is late-term abortions and how one crafts the mental health exemption to the current ban on such abortions. Obama supports the mental health exception - unambiguously, even though Greenburg falsly claims he doesnt. He just doesnt think it should include any old "distress" - i.e. that it really should be limited to cases where there really is a danger to health. Whats wrong with that?

    Parent

    Obama's an idiot (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:11:33 PM EST
    if he goes anywhere near this issue.

    I'll kick his a$$ myself.

    Parent

    Who do you think (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by PamFl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:40:57 PM EST
    should be designated to make this decision of a woman's mental or emotional health?

    Parent
    ah! someone (2.00 / 0) (#199)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:49:13 PM EST
    who is actually tracking the real issue.

    I think it primarily should be made by the woman's doctor, of course. But there is oversignt of doctors, no?

    If a doctor said that continuing a pregnancy would lead to highly dangerous blood pressure levels, and so a physical exception to the abortion ban were justified - but if fact he just made that up and there was no real danger - then how is that overseen, discovered, adjudicated? I imagine it would be the same for any spurious mental health diagnoses.

    No doubt it would be rare, but I think a lot of people feel it important - because a fetus that has reached viability is seen as having some right to some consideration.

    Parent

    Wrong again. (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:52:14 PM EST
    who is actually tracking the real issue.

    No one gets to decide.

    tben, I think you should get pregnant.

    Really, I do.

    Parent

    'Any Old Distress' (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by daring grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:07:18 PM EST
    I confess I'm feeling kind of holiday-lazy and not interested in googling right now.

    Is this really an issue? I mean, my sense is that the vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester and that those done afterwards are largely related to health issues.

    When I read this statement by Obama, I found myself questioning what the point of making this point is, beyond (yes, sorry to say, it feels this way to me) some kind of low grade pander. Low grade because it could (does) serve to infuriate a substantial part of his base while gaining him little, if any, ground from the other side.

    Is this an issue really, based on the numbers, or what?

    Parent

    Yes, what you are arguing is. (none / 0) (#172)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:27:42 PM EST
    And the issue is not aborting live fetuses either.

    A fetus that is 7+ months (which is the definition of late term:  3rd trimester) is a viable baby!  (Unless there is something seriously wrong with it!)  

    Parent

    Exactly!!! (5.00 / 0) (#181)
    by pie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:35:06 PM EST
    A fetus that is 7+ months (which is the definition of late term:  3rd trimester) is a viable baby!  (Unless there is something seriously wrong with it!)

    Effingdemocrats.  

    Those who can't stand for something stand for nothing.

    Parent

    actually no (none / 0) (#186)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:39:39 PM EST
    its considered a baby if it is delivered. The term "fetus" applies till birth.

    Parent
    Happy 4th July TL readers (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by outsider on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:33:40 PM EST
    I stopped by here for a while during the primaries to join in the discussion, and indulge my interest in US politics, although oddly I'm a Brit (you won't be surprised to hear that most of us badly want to see a Dem back in the White House, though my choice was for HRC - hence my gravitation towards this site).  But I enjoyed the site enough that I still pop by for a read every now and again... Anyway, all the best from across the pond!

    I vow (5.00 / 7) (#39)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:37:16 PM EST
    To support and vote for every Democrat who stands for Democratic Principles.  You can count on that.

    The rest? The DINO's?  Not so much.

    The problem with our latest contender (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:34:32 PM EST
    is that he is not a Democrat, he is an independent and therefore a basic tenent of the FDR Democratic party, 'to improve the material well being of the lowliest citizens of our country' is not an issue. In fact Michelle Obama complimented Hillary for making them aware of the plight of so many of our citizens!  Oh well, maybe the Stevensonian wing of the party is still part of the Democratic party.  But first we must have moral and inner renewal.

    Parent
    Anglachel (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:44:14 PM EST
    had a great post on this very thing.

    Parent
    Absolutely the best thing I have (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:53:51 PM EST
    read on why the Democratic party is split almost down the middle.

    Parent
    ah yes the 4th of July, Independence day (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:45:40 PM EST
    Increasingly the country finds itself losing more of it to corporations while taxpayer funds pay for wars on their behalf and the words associated with the 4th of July, freedom and liberty, pose threats to national security - so we are told.

    Not much into celebrating that!

    It's my birthday (5.00 / 9) (#53)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:56:20 PM EST
    Not as old as the USA, and not young enough to invite clowns to the party.

    :)

    Parent

    Hey, Happy Birthday! (-: (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:33:05 PM EST
    Java....you are never too old to invite (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:12:15 PM EST
    clowns to your party...how are you doing?

    Parent
    Happy Birthday Java (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:55:16 PM EST
    And my best to you and your family.  I've been thinking of you since your post the other day.

    Parent
    Happy Bithday!!!!!!!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:06:19 PM EST
    Happy Birthday! (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:08:28 PM EST
    And many happy returns!

    Parent
    Happy Birthday! (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:05:07 PM EST
    send in the clowns, it couldn't hurt

    Parent
    Happy Birthday Java! (none / 0) (#101)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:11:44 PM EST
    Hope you are having a great Fourth; what an honor!

    ---

    And Happy Fourth to one and all; Webmistress, Webmasters and visitors at TalkLeft!

    Parent

    Happiest of Birthdays to you, Java! (none / 0) (#118)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:25:21 PM EST
    Will include a birthday wish for you with the one I am making for the country!

    Parent
    After some of the other comments, (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:58:34 PM EST
     I realized I must have missed something from the other night.  Java, I clicked on your name to see your recent comments and saw what everyone was referring to.

    I feel so terrible wishing you the happiest of birthdays, when of course, this may be one of the worst.

    Deepest apologies and heartfelt sympathy for you and your family.

    Parent

    Nice to see you posting; you were in our thoughts (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:35:43 PM EST
    Happy Planetary Arrival Day!

    Throwing this out for the freak-factor, since this is an idiosyncratically important weekend for myself, too -- ;-D -- how freaky is this ... ?!?

    I always get calls from two of my ex-boyfriends on this day. They're on different continents. They always call at the same time, so that while I'm talking to one, it's virtually guaranteed that the other will be on my voicemail shouting out wishes and tunes.

    How's that for star-crossed lovers?

    It. Happened. Again. Today. Just. Moments. Ago.

    (Oh, and I know they don't arrange this because they hate each other.)

    Parent

    You must be very independent (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:42:46 PM EST
    and Independence Day reminds them of you!

    Parent
    HAPPY BIRTHDAY (none / 0) (#178)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:33:48 PM EST
    I hope that you have a great one JCP!

    Jackson

    Parent

    Happy birthday! (none / 0) (#190)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:41:49 PM EST
    and here's to many more!!  :)

    Parent
    but a good day to BBQ. :-) (none / 0) (#47)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:48:04 PM EST
    On patriotism and liberty (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:47:53 PM EST
    What has been lost over time is the idea that citizens need to have the courage to defend liberty. We all salute the courage of our men and women in uniform, as of course we should, but we need the same courage here at home so that we do not hand our liberties over to the government in the name of security.  We can't expect the people in the military to be the only ones prepared to die for our ideals and liberties.

    We have not done a good enough job communicating our courage to our leaders.  And they have not done anything to model courage to us.


    Okay, I admit it. I'm wearing my flag shirt (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:52:19 PM EST
    that I found on sale years ago.  It comes out once a year, if only to embarrass my children, fated to have an American historian for a mom.  The flag shirt is the least of it.  You oughta hear their riff on some of our dinner-table conversations.  Okay, so I talk in footnotes sometimes.:-)

    And yes! the musical 1776 is on tap tonight, as ever, when they will be here to again have to endure hearing me sing along . . . and see me getting all moved by so many marvelous, poignant moments amid the laffs.  For those here who may not ever have seen it, don't miss it.  I'll be the first to admit that sometimes history is taught better with a bit of fictionalizing to fill it in.  And music.

    My husband and I drove our smart car (none / 0) (#129)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:39:31 PM EST
    in the annual 4th parade (small town-77k) with flags and banners, etc. It was a celebration to include conservation and green.  I admit to cringing at the words of one song "It won't be over til its over over there, and the yanks are coming." What George has done to my love of country is shameful.

    Parent
    When was the first 4th of July Celebrated? (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    When Was the 4th of July First Celebrated? Greg Soltis
    LiveScience Staff
    LiveScience. com
    Tue Jul 1, 5:11 PM ET

    John Adams predicted in a letter to his wife Abigail that Americans
    would celebrate their Independence Day on July 2. Off by two days -
    not too bad for government work.

    On July 2, 1776, Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence,
    signed only by Charles Thompson (the secretary of Congress) and John
    Hancock (the presiding officer). Two days later Congress approved the
    revised version and ordered it to be printed and distributed to the
    states and military officers. The other signatures would have to
    wait.

    Many actually viewed the Declaration of Independence as a yawner - a
    rehashing of arguments already made against the British government.
    John Adams would later describe the Declaration as "dress and
    ornament rather than Body, Soul, or Substance." The exception was the
    last paragraph that said the united colonies "are and of Right ought
    to be Free and Independent states" and were "Absolved of all
    Allegiance to the British Crown."

    For Adams, it was the momentum towards achieving American
    independence initiated on July 2 that future generations would
    consider worth celebrating, not the approval of this document on July
    4.

    Interestingly, the pomp and circumstance that many Americans presume
    took place on July 4, 1776, actually occurred days to weeks
    afterwards.

    The Philadelphia Evening Post published the Declaration' s full text
    in its July 6 newspaper. And the Declaration of Independence was
    publicly read from the State House in Philadelphia on July 8. Later
    that day, it was read in Easton, PA, Trenton, NJ, and to the local
    embryonic militia to provide much-needed inspiration against the
    formidable British.

    The shouting and firing of muskets that followed these first public
    readings represent America's first celebrations of independence.

    As copies spread, the Declaration of Independence would be read at
    town meetings and religious services. In response, Americans lit
    bonfires, fired guns, rang bells, and removed symbols of the British
    monarchy.

    The following year, no member of Congress thought about commemorating
    the adoption of the Declaration of Independence until July 3 - one
    day too late. So the first organized elaborate celebration of
    independence occurred the following day: July 4, 1777, in
    Philadelphia. Ships in the harbor were decked in the nation's colors.
    Cannons rained 13-gun salutes in honor of each state. And parades and
    fireworks spiced up the festivities.

    Fireworks did not become staples of July 4 celebrations until after
    1816, when Americans began producing their own pyrotechnics and no
    longer relied on expensive fireworks from across the pond.

    Since 1777, the tradition of celebrating America's independence on
    July 4 has continued.


    A Native American view of the 4th (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:34:07 PM EST
    from my state historical society's enewsletter today -- of especial interest, perhaps, to you New Yorkers, too.  Your loss, our gain, when the last of the Mahicans moved here:

    In July 1854, John W. Quinney (1797-1855) returned home from Wisconsin. A leader of the Stockbridge (Mahican) Indians who helped organize the tribe's emigration to Wisconsin in the 1820s, Quinney had been invited to speak at July 4th celebrations in Reidsville, N.Y.

    In his speech there to 2,000 listeners, he described how to him the festivities marked "the triumphal days of a people who occupy by conquest, or have usurped the possession of, the territories of my fathers, and have laid, and carefully preserved, a train of terrible misseries."

    His speech was printed in an Albany newspaper and later reprinted in Madison. It traces the history of the Mohican nation and tells exactly how they had been dispossessed of the Hudson River Valley, reduced to starvation, and ultimately moved to the frontier wilderness of Wisconsin.

    "I have been taught in the schools and been able to read your histories and accounts of Europeans, yourselves, and the red man: which instruct me, that while your rejoicings to-day are commemorative of the free birth of this Giant Nation, they simply convey to my mind, the recollection of a transfer of the miserable weakness and dependence of my people from one great power to another."

    You can learn more about Indian views of white historyat the Web site of the Stockbridge-Munsee Community.

    Btw, his sister Electa -- a highly educated and assimilated woman also forced from New York to the West -- was our first public schoolteacher in Wisconsin in 1828.  Thanks again, Easterners!

    Celbrating the 4 th of July and our (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by my opinion on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:54:24 PM EST
    country is very important. Always country before party. Political parties are not bound to anything.

    Some people would claim freedom... (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:02:51 PM EST
    ...is the reason they can criticize and slander those who dissent from the government line.  The right does this: they'll say it's a free country and that means they're free to go after those who dissent.  Problem is, it requires no freedom at all to call someone criticizing the government a traitor or whatever invective one chooses.  You can go after the government's critics in any tyranny in the world and do well for it.  Increasingly, and disturbingly, the same is true in "we're number one!" America.  

    and a song for how i feel (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:08:32 PM EST
    A little ditty called "Who the F*ck?" by the inimitable PJ Harvey.

    Favorite line: "I'm not like other girls/You can't straighten my curls."

    Happy fourth, y'all.

    Parent

    Love PJ! (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:45:48 PM EST
    Thanks everyone for the TUNES!!! (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:43:07 PM EST
    I cached all the TL tunes via You Tube into my Real Player, then shuffled through my speakers.

    Nice mix!

    Parent

    I hate to go over old ideas (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Montague on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:14:39 PM EST
    But Republican rule would already be over if the Dems in Congress would grow a spine!  I've voted for them all my life but I'm not sure they are getting the message.  I'm beginning to believe my only way of sending a message that will resonate (and yes, I DO send emails and make phone calls to the offices of my reps on a regular basis for all the good it does) is to stop enabling them and sit out the election.  Honestly, with a rare few exceptions, even the Dems care more about their own cush jobs than they do about their constituents and the Constitution.

    It's remarkably freeing (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:03:56 PM EST
    to take that step.  I went 'Unaffiliated' in June and am sitting out the top of the ticket and also supporting the DNC.

    I'm putting my money and time into very particularly the causes I care about, my local candidates (one of whom is running a sticker campaign because of admin problems getting on the primary ballot), and national-level candidates I care about.

    I'm supporting those who speak for me and stand up for me in the times and places where I can't.

    It feels good.

    Parent

    July 4th (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by cmugirl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:19:12 PM EST
    I went to the National Archives in DC today and on stage they had Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Ben Frankin reading the Declaration of Indpendence. This is truly a remarkable piece of writing when you really stop and think about what the founders were doing when they signed their names to this document - they were committing treason, and in effect, possibly signing their death warrants. When you read the grievances against King George III here, think about who it reminds you of today. And yet, remember that like the Phoenix, we too shall rise above the disaster that is our own King George (even if I don't have faith in either presidential candidate, I do have faith in the American people).

    =========

    IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    The concept of sacrifice (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:53:46 PM EST
    must be re-introduced to the American people. The Founding Fathers sacrificed everything to establish our nation, and look what we've become.

    Bush told us to go shopping after 9/11. I knew he was going to be a terrible president, but to me, that was the first sign of how much trouble we were in.

    People in a real war, not a war on a feeling, don't get to buy iPods and choose from eighteen types of lettuce at Whole Foods.

    No wonder the troops think we've forgotten them. What impact do Iraq and Afghanistan have on the lives of most Americans?

    Parent

    Abstractions (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:16:55 PM EST
    The war is largely an abstract issue to most Americans.  It's stats on the news (sometimes) and a political issue to be swatted back and forth by many.

    I have relatives in military service, including a cousin who was stationed in Afghanistan.

    Of course, everyone is free to have an opinion, and say what they like, but it is sometimes difficult to not be annoyed by people on both sides of the issue who spend enormous amounts of energy at their keyboards bemoaning or cheering the war (as the case may be) whose connection to it is largely academic.

    Parent

    Keyboard kommandos... (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:28:30 PM EST
    I have the same reaction sometimes, especially when it's an American Enterprise Institute type bloviating on how we are "fighting for freedom." And I don't even have anyone in the Service in my family, so sometimes I annoy myself!

    True story: My dad was almost drafted. He was the last kid in line, and the guy looked at him and said, "What's a nice Jewish kid like you doing in a place like this?" My dad shrugged and said, "I dunno."

    The guy said, "You got anything wrong with you?" Dad said, "I had asthma as a kid."

    The guy stamped his application 4-F. Sometimes you get lucky.

    My heart goes out to you and all the military family and friends today, and I hope they come home safely and soon.

    Parent

    Rove and John Edwards to debate (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:44:35 PM EST
    in Buffalo, 9/26.  Tickets to go on sale soon.

    I can't get my linking button to work (go figure), so I'll just tell you to go to the Buffalo News site (www dot buffalonews dot com) to read about it.

    I hope John gets sharpened up and a moderator who will tell Rove to STFU when he starts lying and interrupting.

    Think this means that Edwards won't (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:53:42 PM EST
    be Obama's VP?

    Or is this a head feint to throw us off the track?

    Parent

    Will Edwards be debating the (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:11:48 PM EST
    "new progressive agenda" or the old Democratic party platform?

    I'd love to see Hillary debate Rove.

    Parent

    Oh, me too. (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:15:54 PM EST
    Rove is going to be really, really tough. We will need a master debater to combat him.

    I hope Edwards is up to the challenge.

    Parent

    WE THE PEOPLE did not do our job (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Saul on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:00:37 PM EST
    against the Bush administration.  If ever there was  a president that should have been impeached it was Bush.  The powers of the president were abused and    since Bush was not impeached then those extended abusive powers are there to be used by the next president if he so wishes.   When you read the constitution it was all about rebelling  against a tyrant like the crown of England and to never ever let such tyrants exist again.   So why didn't we do it again against Bush?

    Because when the dems won in 2006 (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:06:13 PM EST
    they said impeachment was off the table. Where are the dems any better than the repubs on issues. The dems have caved since they came to power in 2006. Obama has caved (let's call it that anyway)as well. To me, the only power we the people have left so they'll hear us is our vote or lack thereof. I truly believe that our country is in very serious trouble!

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:17:34 PM EST
    And when our nominating process of a president has become akin to American Idol, covered minute-by-minute by starry-eyed media types, and parsing of candidates' and surrogates' words take over the headlines, we ARE in trouble.

    The media's behavior during these past 8-10 months has been reprehensible, to the point that it's almost criminal. But, it didn't start now. I think it started right around the 2nd-half of 2002 as W & Co. were prepping for Iraq. Its role, or the lack of it in trying to prevent the war, is undeniable.

    Parent

    The media (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:23:11 PM EST
    has been a disgrace for a very, very long time.

    Remember how they crucified Carter for being "afraid" of a rabbit?

    And what about the way the media treated Bill Clinton?

    Parent

    My Bad, You're Right (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:28:07 PM EST
    I wasn't thinking that far back, because the going-ons in our country and politics (I'm ashamed to admit) only entered my consciousness during, or rather after the fiasco of 2000 election when I'd just cast my very first vote.

    Parent
    Awwww.... (none / 0) (#184)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:36:56 PM EST
    you're a youngster! Good for you for being so politically active. :-)

    Parent
    Lottery/Money Spams (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:17:30 PM EST
    They are getting awfully creative these days. I've been "winning" money from the United Nations and just now I go this one:

    Your email has won $5,500,000.00 ON SENATE COMMITEE ON APPROPRIATION Contact. Person: DR. EZE AYOGU  
    your personal data

    Our tax dollars at work?!

    :-P

    The fascist takeover of America (4.00 / 1) (#214)
    by magnetics on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:09:18 PM EST
    has already occurred; but the people have not yet noticed.

    The two major parties have finally coalesced; and the meme of my apolitical friends, whom I for years attempted to get to the polls to vote Democratic, has finally become truth.

    I still believe (with Bill Clinton) that what's wrong with America can be fixed by what's right here; but I no longer like our chances of having that come to pass.

    Happy FISA; Happy 4th.

    what say ye (none / 0) (#3)
    by NJDem on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:33:13 AM EST
    link

    Obama may accept nomination at NFL stadium [CNN]

    Imagine (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Lahdee on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:55:33 AM EST
    the symbolism if it rains?

    Parent
    Sounds like a replay (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:12:38 PM EST
    of the stadium scene in Meet John Doe, but I doubt Obama has the character of Gary Cooper's character.


    Parent
    Would be a shame if it rained on Obama's (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:25 PM EST
    parade.

    One problem could be the weather. The stadium is open aired, and susceptible to afternoon and evening summer thunderstorms, while the arena is closed to the elements.


    Parent
    MO Blue....who cares if it rains on his (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:16:21 PM EST
    parade...he rains on our parade every damn day!

    Parent
    There is... (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:41:53 PM EST
    ...a good deal of inherent beauty in an afternoon thunderstorm in Colorado.  They can be awe inspiring, a treat for all of the senses.  

    My personal favorite is when it's raining but the sun is shining brightly.  Mother Nature at her finest.  

    Besides, a little rain is a good thing when you live in a semi-arid climate.  We will take any moisture we can get.  

    Parent

    Obama the Rain God! The One! n/t (none / 0) (#49)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:50:21 PM EST
    The Obama campaign graphics (none / 0) (#52)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:55:54 PM EST
    always position him as more like the Sun God, though, with those rays from his head -- when not using the halo. :-)

    That said, the campaign graphics this year -- and not just by Obama -- will have impact for years to come, much as the Woodstock dove did (and still does).

    Parent

    Stadiums are rock-concert venues, too (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:29 PM EST
    more than football stadiums to a certain demographic.

    So this doesn't surprise me at all.  Will there be a totally awesome light show, too?  Way cool.  Bring a lighter to wave.

    Parent

    Maybe obama should just cut a record, (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:23:26 PM EST
    and leave the "presidenting" to someone qualified to do so; and in whom America might have some trust.

    Parent
    Cream dear (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:33:41 PM EST
    lighters are outre.

    Now all the cool kids hold up their cell phones, lit up.  

    Parent

    Well, my last stadium rock concert (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:36:21 PM EST
    was to see Sir Paul McCartney return to my town, where I had been to the Beatles concert in 1964.

    So you can see that I'm still getting used to cell phones.

    Parent

    I've not seen the phenomenon (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    myself, although I've heard rumors.

    Doesn't have quite the oomph and symbolism of fire, though.  Although I suppose, as a symbol of the generation, it's perfect.

    Parent

    It plays to his presumed strength (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by EL seattle on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:22:00 PM EST
    ... as a public speaker.  So it would make sense for the Obama team to try to schedule as many big forum speeches as they can, and try to build and maintain an image of inevitability for his campaign.  

    If used carefully and infrequently, this will be very effective.  But if they try it too often, it might become schtick, and folks won't remember the big speeches as much as they wil remember the frequent parodies that SNL and the late night comics will start to do.  And if frequent parodies become constant parodies, that could be a sign that the public has developed fatigue towards Obama inevitability.  

    Parent

    I have no doubt that the whole thing (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:03:12 PM EST
    is to create awesome inspiring symbolism.  Lit candles or cell phones (thousands of them) will the stadium light up and make it like the second coming.  Have you any doubt about it?

    Parent
    If so, please no hip-hop music (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:44:35 PM EST
    like "Dirt Off My Shoulder."  I would have to hurt my tv.

    Parent
    Probably a Christian Gospel Group (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:47:04 PM EST
    Extra points if it is a evangelical gospel group.

    Parent
    Good point, they need a concert (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:14:14 PM EST
    in order to get 50,000 people there. They wouldn't come for a political candidate alone. Isn't that how they got the crowd in Portland? They had Obama follow a concert. In fact, I'm going to do a new post on this.

    Question: Who will it be? Springsteen and Stevie Wonder or The Black Eyed Peas?

    I'd rather see Bon Jovi or the Eagles. Or Tom Petty (they sure use his songs enough, between American Girl and Won't Back Down.) Of course, none of those groups were declared Obama supporters before the nomination was decided.

    Mellencamp played at the DNC in Boston in 2004 in in 2008 he campaigned for Edwards in Iowa and elsewhere. He never chose between the candidates before the primary was decided -- his last shows after Edwards dropped out were one for Obama and one for Hillary. The Goo Goo Dolls also played for both candidates.

    I've got to head out for the afternoon but I'll do a new post on this tonight. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Parent

    Yes, jeralyn, it was a concert (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:29:51 PM EST
    Obama's big event here in Portland took place on one of the only fabulous days we had this spring. It was a big concert, and it was free. I think 15 bands. And the Decemberists, a very popular band here, played.

    Parent
    I got the smack down on another (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:35:56 PM EST
    forum for mentioning the free concert! I obviously haven't learned all the Obama Roolz yet . . . .

    Parent
    A Concert (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:38:59 PM EST
    is a sure-fire way to gather his core group of supporters -- the college young'ins -- to come out for him.

    I'd expect Will-i-am and Jay-Z to be there for sure. And maybe Halle Barry and Scarlett Johansson will be there too (all public supporters of him). Oh of course, daytime TV doyenne Oprah Winfrey would be there too.

    I've also heard rumors that poptart Mariah Carey has penned a song called "100 Percent" or "100%" to be debuted right around the convention as a theme song for the GE campaign.

    Can you spell c-h-e-e-s-y? His campaign is oozing with it, that's for sure.

    Parent

    100% what? (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:21:40 PM EST
    Baloney?

    Parent
    Why 100% Hope and Change of course (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:32:22 PM EST
    That certainly seems specific enough.

    Parent
    OOOOOooooo! Maybe Oprah (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:33:16 PM EST
    could give everyone who attends a free car?!!!!  Could you imagine the publicity from that?  Wow!  EVERYONE would vote for Obama then!!!  

    Parent
    They need to get (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:22:57 PM EST
    David Archuletta, David Cook, Kelly Clarkson, and Carrie Underwood to play.  All of the "American Idols."  

    It just seems appropriate.  ;-)


    Parent

    Doesn't Christina (none / 0) (#210)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:59:50 PM EST
    Aguliera (sp?) support Obama? She could help with the Latino vote.....

    Parent
    It's Just Too Much (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:24:57 PM EST
    All this razz-matazz for one guy; who do they think he is? (Yeah, I'm gonna leave that open.)

    It would be so wonderful to see it really pour down; like blowing winds and thunder and lightning, just as he begins to start speaking.

    I wonder if they'll have really strict rules on who can get in so that no protestors; Republicans, PUMAs etc. can get in. Sort of like how they staged that Unity, N.H. rubbish-of-a-show by busing people in after patting them down.

    After seeing his supporters; handlers and the DNC trip over themselves silly and invest so much time and money in elevating this guy, it'd be a hoot to see him lose.

    Parent

    JimWash08...wouldn't mind that myself... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:51:52 PM EST
    "It would be so wonderful to see it really pour down; like blowing winds and thunder and lightning, just as he begins speaking."

    Although, I don't think this is allowed in obama's world :)

    Parent

    Ha! Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:59:21 PM EST
    It's one of those unmentionables around him.
    Wouldn't want to get the Boy Wonder upset now!

    But, in all seriousness, if they're going to turn this into a pop concert/circus, it just denigrates the importance; the tradition of nominating a Presidential nominee for a major national political party.

    Not that I really care anymore, because it ain't my party anymore, but for the history books, do we really need to jump hoops just because the nation's finally got it's first black nominee with a real shot at the White House?

    And no, I wouldn't condone such plans for Hillary either.

    It just reeks of overconfidence and aloofness (oh wait, I forgot who the presumptuous nominee is...).


    Parent

    I couldn't see Hillary doing this - or even (5.00 / 10) (#104)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:13:12 PM EST
    considering doing it - not in a million years.

    For her, this would not be a coronation, or an induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame; it would be another step toward getting the country back from the criminals who have been running it for the last 8 years.

    I can only speak for myself - and maybe it's my age and the realization of how much is at stake - but the whole stadium thing, no doubt glittering with big names and rock stars, is inappropriate, tasteless and tacky.

    We have a war going on.  A serious, soul-killing, treasury-draining, reputation-killing war going on.  We have people in this country without health insurance, without jobs, struggling to keep the jobs they have with prices going through the roof.  A stadium event is overkill.

    Just when I think my antipathy for Obama has peaked, it manages to grow.

    Parent

    I want to personally say to you (5.00 / 6) (#106)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:16:34 PM EST
    Anne, that I totally agree with absolutely everything you are saying and thought it deserved more than just a "5" rating to show you. Thank you.

    Parent
    You're welcome, zfran - (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:20:31 PM EST
    and thank you for your kind comment.

    I often wish there were a way to include a message with a rating, since I almost always think the rating alone is not enough to express my feeling about the comment!

    Parent

    ditto on Anne's message.... (none / 0) (#192)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:43:50 PM EST
    Why don't they just put the "crown" (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:59:43 PM EST
    on his head for the country to see. Why even vote! Why isn't he giving his speech in front of the delegates who actually cast their votes for him? Someone please tell me why I should vote for top of the ticket dem and bottom of the ticket dems when I see no change in the dem party from the repub party in policy. What wonderful "compromise" are we getting from the FISA bill Obama so supports (and pres. Obama will be listening too)?We still have the Patriot Act, we are still in Iraq...need I go on.

    Parent
    The "Crown" (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by cmugirl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:18:12 PM EST
    I hear Burger King still gives them away for free if you ask.

    Parent
    Perhaps it's time (5.00 / 5) (#112)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:20:44 PM EST
    for someone to be running behind him, holding a laurel wreath over his head (but never placing it on his head) and whispering memento mori in his ear.

    Parent
    HA! (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by cmugirl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:23:37 PM EST
    Rated a "5" for being both funny and for using Latin!

    Parent
    One of the benefits (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:41:32 PM EST
    of having a daughter who's a Classics major.

    Parent
    Learned that from a Batman comic. (none / 0) (#197)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:47:26 PM EST
    It's astonishing how comics range from the truly cheesy to the amazingly well read - sometimes with the same character.

    Sandman falls under the "well read" category, but I got exposed to a lot reading Batman too.  Now I shall have to dig out Alex Ross' Uncle Sam.

    Originally I was going with Transmetropolitan for this election, but perhaps Uncle Sam is a better match.  It pits the original spirit of America against the mass produced, mass marketed Media version.  Not one of Alex Ross' better known works due to the lack of super hero cachet.

    Parent

    Will there be cheerleaders? (5.00 / 8) (#99)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:09:10 PM EST
    ...the boys from MSNBC would look cute in the little outfits.

    Parent
    Ok, that I would actually watch n/t (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:19:13 PM EST
    KO would have some serious shaving (none / 0) (#194)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:45:41 PM EST
    to do....blech

    Parent
    Just like the one they did in (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by hairspray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:13:51 PM EST
    Oregon and then published the 70k picture to prove that the "candidate" realy can draw a crowd.

    Parent
    He's out of control. (4.63 / 11) (#7)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:54:16 AM EST
    Someone with an ego this massive needs to be kept far, far away from the reins of government.

    On the practical side, I think it will never happen, just because the security logistics would be unmanaageable.

    Parent

    I laughed at the second comment (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by tree on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:12:27 PM EST
    N
    FL football stadium - I don't know, it may not be big enough to fit his ego in.

    This campaign year seems to be turning into a farce. On some days I wonder if Obama's first acts as President will be to declare Swedish the new official language and require us all to wear our underwear on the outside. Some days I just hope I'll wake up and it will be early 2000 again.  

    Parent

    Oops! Maybe its time to start drinking (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by tree on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:14:43 PM EST
    That lone "N" should be part of the quote. "NFL", not "FL".

    Parent
    It's even funnier (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by badger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:23:16 PM EST
    (and more typically arrogant) to think that the stadium would be in  FL.


    Parent
    No - it's all about making himself (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:25:10 PM EST
    the second coming of both MLK, Jr (anniversary of the "I Have a Dream" speech) and JFK (who accepted in LA Coliseum) - over and over and over, the media will remind us of these two events.

    Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

    Parent

    Anne...Not to worry as he has not shown (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:33:05 PM EST
    himself to be MLK or JFK-like.  And now, even the NYT's is turning on him...

    link

    Parent

    I wonder if BTD's media darling theory (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:55:17 PM EST
    is still in effect?

    [waves at PsstCmere08]

    Parent

    Great article, however, what is it (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:31:38 PM EST
    going to take to dispel the reasoning of why people should vote for him. Will it be the Iraq issue in which Obama and McCain are closer in thinking on, what will it take. Many are rumbling, but still cling to Obama. He lied, he is not the man he told us he was and to me, the oval office with him in it, is extremely dangerous.  

    Parent
    Good point. But it's a lost cause. (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    As quite a few frequent posters here have said, and I guess BTD and Jeralyn too, that voting for a Democrat is the only way they'll go. No ifs. No buts. And I suspect millions of other Americans feel the same way.

    Whether he is "extremely dangerous" or not, Obama is going to get millions of votes because those people just will not stand to vote in another Republican.

    Nevermind if McCain's intentions are nothing like the last 7+ years, or they are, and that he has a much more respectable record while being a senator and a military serviceman. He just won't get their votes (well mine neither, as of now)

    Obama's got a (D) after his name. And all the other big-name pols say he's good. Heck, even Hillary (did what she practically was arm-twisted to do and) said to vote for him. So, he must be good and the answer to our prayers, right? -sigh-

    Parent

    I don't care for it (3.50 / 2) (#9)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:57:18 AM EST
    but I expect they'll do it.  It's tacky.  I prefer a more dignified event in line with a possible President not a contrived, product placement, media event at a football stadium (yes, I watch football.)  

    [A bigger crowd could make for a more compelling picture and image.]  

    I don't think it's a positive image to have this at a football stadium.  For me, football is drinking beer, yelling at the tv, watching cheesy commercials, and a really bad half-time show (I remember Prince and Janet Jackson.)


    Parent

    Just reinforces the whole rock-star (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:11 PM EST
    campaign to me, which is why I started to get nervous about him back in January anyway.

    Parent
    Already got mine... (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:20:19 PM EST
    it is predictable, isn't it?

    Parent
    Tacky seems to be something (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:12:11 PM EST
    his campaign likes.  Remember the "Truthful Possum" seal?  

    NFL stadiums are nice because there is room for thousands and thousands of American flags, not to mention the big "Obama Hope & Change" banner that can be hung between the goalposts.  

    Parent

    A Re-entrance Of The Seal, Maybe? (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by JimWash08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:17:52 PM EST
    And they'll probably have the works -- Air Force flypast, superstar singing the National Anthem, opening and closing popstar acts, a celestial choir (he loves those) and fireworks.

    And maybe goodie bags for the simplefolk in the stands -- pins, stickers, and placards with the ticket names and his mug emblazoned on them, and those plastic clappers (ooh, he loves those too)

    Parent

    They'll do the wave (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by cmugirl on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:21:28 PM EST
    Hey - maybe this isn't a bad idea.  Instead of the MSNBC dunderhead political team, they could get the guys from NFL Sunday on FOX (Terry Bradshaw, Howie Long, Jimmie Johnson, etc.)   Then they could break and go over to the in-studio football field for the "coach's corner" segment to show how the Democrats should run the next play (where the guys could act it out in slo-mo)!

    Parent
    They can paint that seal right on the (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:27:55 PM EST
    50 yard line.  

    Also, perhaps they could allow the Nascar drivers to slowly parade around the outside of the field.  Shouldn't Miss America be there too?  

    ******
    And meanwhile, the RNC will be planning for McCain's event at the local American Legion.  They'll invite the residents of the local nursing homes to come and surround the stage with their wheelchairs.

    Such a study in contrasts!    

    Parent

    Uh... I don't think you'll have many (none / 0) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:40:02 PM EST
    NASCAR drivers there.

    Parent
    Flag pins, too ... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by camellia on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:34:02 PM EST
    Don't forget those.  

    Happy birthday to the USA.  I am an immigrant, a naturalized citizen now for many years and although I still love my country of birth I love this country too.  For a couple of years I taught classes for immigrants studying to become citizens and that really helped me to retain my faith in this country and its essential goodness.  It wasn't easy though to stand in front of a group of wide-eyed old ladies(I taught the afternoon class and most young people were working, so I got the grandmas) from Eritrea or Bolivia or Congo and tell about the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution, while the Bush administration was setting out to destroy those very freedoms.  But, you know, they all got it -- i.e., the idea of freedom of speech, of the press, and most of all  they got the freedom of religion idea.  And it was so satisfying to me when one of my students would phone to say "I did it!  I passed!  Now I am a citizen, and I will be able to vote!"

    So  -- Happy Birthday, USA!!!  And thank you to Jeralyn and BTD for the opportunity to exercise one of those freedoms here.  

    Parent

    Flag pins with obama's face painted (none / 0) (#185)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:39:18 PM EST
    right in the middle of the stars and stripes..doesn't get more patriotic than that....

    Waving back at madamab...welcome back!

    Parent

    I say... (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:01:10 PM EST
    ...so what?

    An NFL stadium vs a NBA/NHL arena?  Both are very nice venues, one holds more people.  Inside vs. outside?  I'd rather be outside enjoying the beauty that is Colorado.  Makes for better staging as well with the mountains on one side and the downtown Denver on the other.  But, in the end, does the venue really matter?  

    Since this is the 2nd time you've posted this, either you have a point to make.  So, let's hear it.

    Parent

    IMO - It's about the drama. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:13:53 PM EST
    It makes it more accessible to more people, but that's not really so important.  

    It's about the drama, the image.  But who is going to pay for all that?  The security alone is a nightmare.  

    Parent

    People who know say... (none / 0) (#30)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:30:20 PM EST
    'Mayor John Hickenlooper said he hadn't heard the rumor directly from the Obama campaign, but added it would be "amazing" if it happened.

    "It would be difficult, but not impossible," Hickenlooper said. "You would have to adapt. You would have to make sure you got the right people in the right places - if it's something the Obama campaign wants to do."'
    -Rocky Mountain News

    Parent

    ..and pay for. (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:35:14 PM EST
    With all the money woes the Convention has, I hope Obama is ponying up the cash for this.

    Parent
    According to a link above to NYTimes editorial, (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jawbone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:49:23 PM EST
    Obama is on a high-rollers hunt, setting up fundraisers with a target price for quality time with the candidate is more than $30,000 per person.

    Don't miss this NYTimes editorial.

    (Sorry to not have attributed link to commenter, but feared losing my comment... Anne?)

    Parent

    That was me. (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:30:04 PM EST
    That one was good and also the one in the Philadelphia Enquirer.  (I thought Philly was an Obama town?)  

    Parent
    Nope, wasn't me - (none / 0) (#105)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 03:16:31 PM EST
    but that was some editorial, wasn't it?

    Parent
    Again, from the Rocky... (none / 0) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:51:58 PM EST
    'Chris Lopez, spokesman for the Denver 2008 Host Committee, said they were continuing with the original plan of having the nomination speech at the Pepsi Center. Convention planners get access starting Monday to begin build-out of the Pepsi Center for the event.

    With less than two months to go, the host committee is still raising money. It fell short of the contractual obligation of raising $40.6 million in cash and $9.7 million of in-kind services by June 16 - though Hickenlooper said that since Obama became the nominee, things have gotten smoother.

    Obama said he is not worried about the cash crunch.

    "I have not been involved in the day-to-day organization of the convention, as you might expect. I was pretty busy with the primary and wasn't even sure I'd be the nominee," Obama said.

    "So now that the nomination has been decided, we'll work with the mayor and all the other parties involved to make sure it goes off without a hitch."'

    Parent

    It's just so gauche.... (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by MichaelGale on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:53:53 PM EST
    I'm no big fan of Obama (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:08:39 PM EST
    but I think this is an excellent idea.

    Lots more 'regular folks' can get in, not just delegates.  Don't forget this is also a Colorado campaign stop.  A big rally there may put the state in his column.

    Parent

    JFK did too (none / 0) (#20)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:15:25 PM EST
    at the Memorial Coliseum in LA, in 1960.

    Sounds like a good idea for inviting a large crowd.

    Parent

    It just does not FEEL like 4th of July (none / 0) (#5)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:44:33 AM EST
    Maybe it is because it is overcast in NE PA today and thus not a sunny happy day. My friends are all on the 3rd activity plan for the day and at this point we are still looking for Plan D. Which might be just to eat some ice cream. Right Now. Ha! Or go to the Fireman's picnic. Happy 4th of July.

    There's never a wrong time (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by tree on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:58:23 AM EST
    to eat ice cream! I say go for it.

    "My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy the ice cream while it's on your plate"- Thornton Wilder

    Happy 4th everyone!

    Parent

    Enjoy that ice cream, while watching this: (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:21:31 PM EST
    OMG! (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by tree on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:34:50 PM EST
    I worked that event! I'm even visible(barely) in that clip! In the very beginning of the clip, just after Big Bird steps down the first step, you'll see a hand reach onto the platform behind him. That's my hand. I laid out an antenna that allowed Carrol Spinney, the BB muppeteer, to see where he was going on a little TV monitor strapped to his chest inside the costume.  
      Wow, 1982. Now I feel old. (Would anyone believe I was only 12 years old at the time? Thought not.)

    Parent
    Going back to look at Tree's hand.... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:43:44 PM EST
    my favorite holiday (none / 0) (#40)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:39:14 PM EST
    July 4 is always my favorite. It's a great time for a picnic. We either have our own or with family (Richmond or various tidewater towns) or go to some public event (DC, Williamsburg, Richmond, Charlottesville, etc.).

    Today Dubya is here at Monticello at the usual events and swearing in ceremony. We decided not to go because of him there. Somehow he doesn't bring to mind independence, freedom, and feeling set free from a oppressive king.

    But my favorite are the big family picnics on the eastern shore (Chesapeake). Nothing in the world like them. Totally lame fireworks, but that's not what's important. Easily the best food in the universe bar none. Then again, maybe it's the company. This year we're at home, but maybe it's time to push everyone for another big family event. The family has been in that area since 1607, so there are some amazing stories around the campfire too.

    I love the quote! (none / 0) (#54)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:58:53 PM EST
    I used it in an opinion when I clerked on the US Ct. of Appeals.  

    highly recommended -- 1776 musical in Williamsburg (none / 0) (#56)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:09:45 PM EST
    Cream City and other posts mentioned the 1776 musical. I highly recommend Colonial Williamsburg in general, but also seeing the 1776 musical there. There's nothing like all the fife and drum corps and all the rest at that place. I've been seeing that since the 70's and it's still great. OK, a bit cheesy at moments, but still.

    And Williamsburg's restoration (none / 0) (#59)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:29:46 PM EST
    has had huge impact on historical preservation nationwide, cheesy (to get public support) and otherwise.  It's a wonderful place, and I must get back there -- I remember the fife and drum corps so well, as does my son who was only three then.  One of my fave fotos of him in childhood still is him watching the corps, wearing his own tricorner hat.

    He became a history major.  Just sayin'. :-)  Well, a trip to marvelous Lincoln Country, Springfield and New Salem and all, had huge impact on him, too (as it did on me as a child).  As we say, history matters!

    Parent

    as are the Jamestown archeology efforts (none / 0) (#66)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:07:29 PM EST
    which is a must see if you're in the Williamsburg area. Yay to history!

    Parent
    Congress too, including Vichy Dems (none / 0) (#58)
    by pluege on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:24:24 PM EST
    Given our President's stunning disregard for the rule of law

    the constitution specifically provides for prosecution of criminals in government as high as POTUS. Adherence to "the rule of law" requires prosecution of criminals or there is no "rule of law.". Pelosi and the rest of the Vichy democrats, and all republicans also have a "stunning disregard for the rule of law" by turning a blind eye to the bush regime's criminality.  

    Patriotism and Liberty (none / 0) (#88)
    by rghojai on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:54:04 PM EST
    As per the curiosity about our thoughts regarding "patriotism and liberty and on how this Administration has driven a stake in the heart of both," the administration's done about as expected, maybe taking things a little further than expected, but the likes of Addington, Cheney, etc., have made their views/goals quite clear for some time.

    While there's a temptation/hope to look at all that as a blip, what's been more discouraging than the likes of Addington, the administration is how much the Dems have caved. Reid and Pelosi have been enormous disappointments.

    Beyond the issues themselves, which are no small things, I fear their capitulation is leaving the Bush/Repub views as the norm, what's accepted, entrenched, seemingly a lot harder to undo--even if Obama gets elected and wants to undo things.

    Some Thoughts On What's Offensive (none / 0) (#180)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:35:02 PM EST
    Today I wrote something about Rachel Maddow that people didn't like.  I will not repeat what I said here, but I will address the issue of how we fight for what we believe is right, to what lengths we go to to fight for what we believe is right, as well as what appears to me to be acceptable with respect to some issues and not others.

    First of all, some background on this comment:

    Epiphany (TL link)

    Cowardice at the Kaine campaign (dailykos link)  

    Wherein a Democratic Candidate for Gov. is accused of being a coward and siding AGAINST a blogger who was fighting against Michael Steele, who is, everyone knows, clearly guilty of justifying racism in the case of some issues with Country Clubs and other issues.

    Now a lot of discussion can be avoided if one simply wants to make a statement that the late blogging great Steve Gilliard would be deleted on TL if he posted this at TL.

    This is the picture that was originally featured on that post.

    But if one believes that that is a perfectly valid, perfectly respectable and perfectly OK way to fight for what you believe in, then I think some more discussion is necessary.

    Because I do believe Rachel Maddow embraced sexism and denied that sexism existed where it clearly, to my way of thinking, existed.  Not only that but I do now believe that when one is speaking out against racism, one can be as offensive as they want to be about it and people will, for the most part, focus on the issue in question, the racism accepted and encouraged by Michael Steele.

    But when people speak out against sexism, one should take greater care not to be offensive about it and that more people would be inclined to divert the issue to the person being offensive, not the person who is guilty of accepting and encouraging sexism, Rachel Maddow.

    Here's the SAT analogy question and answer:

    STEELE: RACISM:: Maddow: Sexism

    If people disagree, that's great.

    Apology for the offensive comment earlier today.

    huh? (none / 0) (#206)
    by tben on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 04:54:48 PM EST
    I have never asked you a single personal question, and believe me, I have no intention of ever doing so.

    I have neither a deep nor a shallow nor any interest whatsoever in your personal medial and moral decision making.

    I really have not the slightest clue as to where you are coming from or what you are struggling to say. I do think you are tripping all over your own snark, and it sounds pretty incoherent to me.

    Lahdee: (none / 0) (#212)
    by tek on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:05:45 PM EST
    Hey!  Another Grant historian!  Not that many people realize that Vicksburg and Gettysburg both fell on July 4, 1863.  It's as good an anniversary as the Declaration, IMHO.

    I have (none / 0) (#215)
    by tek on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:09:59 PM EST
    to admit, I have a soft spot for Meade.  I think he'd been fighting 3 days, his men were exhausted, he'd seen way too much bloodshed and loss of life and I think he just let Lee get across the river because he didn't want to see anymore killing.  I believe there is a humanitarian side to generals that most military historians overlook.  I like it, it means they really are humans who care about their men.  (I know Lincoln got irritated whenever he thought one of his generals had a chance to end the war and stop the slaughter, but human beings do have limits).

    Of course, one of the things that made Grant great is he pushed those limits.  Got nicknamed "Butcher of the North" by people in the North.

    PamFl (none / 0) (#216)
    by tek on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:14:32 PM EST
    Agree totally.

    I don't want Crist to be VP.  Then we'll get some Nazi for governor.