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    CNN, Anderson Cooper (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:14:08 PM EST
    tonight -- discussing WORM about Iraq today.  Yeegads!  Two men totally screaming their heads off!  One screaming you can't win in Iraq without troops and the other one screaming Obama has always been consistent!  Too funny!!  You usually have to pay for this kind of entertainment (unless you regularly watch Jerry Springer, of course).    

    I heard Rachel Maddow (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:47:53 PM EST
    try to defend it against the MSNBC panel with Joe Scarborough also.  It did not go well.

    I only heard a little in the car - I cant keep track of his current stance.  Rachel was saying Obama did not say today that he still agreed with the 16 month deadline, but she was also saying he has not changed his position since March. Scarborough was making fun of her as she laughed at him calling her out on the contradiction. It was a big mess.


    Parent

    Based on your description, (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:19:02 PM EST
    I'm watching the repeat. Yeller i.d.-Ed "Blowhard" Schultz. That guy really can yell! Can't say I've missed him during my media boycott.

    Parent
    Sending some love to TalkLeft (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:24:14 PM EST
    Having just verified that my "stimulus payment" has arrived in my bank account, I've a little of it along to TalkLeft. Small donation and in $US, but it's the thought that counts (I hope).

    Thanks to Jeralyn, BTD, and TChris, for helping me keep what little is left of my sanity and for staying on top of the legal/crime issues that I came here for in the first place!

    I'll join you (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Coldblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:50:26 PM EST
    While I'm not in harmony with supporting the nominee simply because he is the Democrat, this site (and the proprietor) are worthy of a contribution.

    Hats off to TalkLeft.

    Parent

    Senior Women Web denied credentials (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:33:03 PM EST
    to the Dem convention in Denver (as well as the GOP convention), although writer, lawyer, and longtime feminist leader Jo Freeman has reported from conventions since the '60s.  (See her web page , click from this link, with much else that is great reading -- plus her collection of convention and movement memorabilia not to miss.)  She asks for help -- see how below -- because she has been denied press credentials.:

    The Democratic Convention Committee in particular seems to be giving out all of its credentials to bloggers, to the detriment of the publications I have traditionally written for.  Press credentials are given only to press organizations, not to individuals, so I always have to apply through and write for a specific publication.

    I always apply to the Periodical Press Gallery, and through the 2000 conventions, the PPG always credentialed the press organization I represented (which varied over the years).  These were all print publications.  When I applied in 2004 through Senior Women Web [an online magazine], we were denied.

    However, because [the 2004 sites were close to home for her], I went anyway.  PPG recognized me as a "regular" . . . and gave me a "no show" pass (i.e. one allocated but not picked up by another a publication).  I thought having done this in 2004, PPG would surely credential SWW (me) in 2008, but it didn't.

    Senior Women Web was denied again this year.  The DNCC and RNCC haven't allocated all passes yet, she says, but replies she received suggest that they do not take Senior Women Web seriously.  And  owing to the distance to be traveled this year for her to convention sites, she can't make a last-minute trip as last time.

    If you think that Senior Women Web should be credentialed for her readers to have her take, as ever, on political parties' concerns and activities of women and/or feminists, please contact:  Drew Brookie, Media Logistics, DNCC,
    dnccpressgallery@demconvention.com and Tamar Mintz, TMintz@gopconvention2008.com and/or special_press@GOPConvention2008.com.

    oh my... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:42:07 PM EST
    This hurts*.

    *their chances that I will take them seriously. Frack the DNC and the pony it rode in on if Jo Freeman can't report. That's a deal-breaker for me. Big Tent != Unity? WTF?!

    Parent

    Pander to everyone (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:45:18 PM EST
    except women.  

    Parent
    Especially (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:47:43 PM EST
    Senior Women and their online magazine.  Under the bus with good company there, of course.  

    Out with the old, in with the New . . . Dems.

    Parent

    Related to Obama's FISA cave (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:35:55 PM EST
    I no longer have a scintilla of doubt that he would have voted for the AUMF like Hillary did if he had been a junior freshman Senator with presidential aspirations at the time.

    Just happy to have that cleared up. One less thing to wonder about.

    Fish on the General Election race (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:41:47 PM EST
    Is That All There Is?
    TAGS: GENERAL ELECTION, PRIMARIES
    From early February through the beginning of June, the lament one heard from the political pundits (echoing Cicero's first oration against Catiline) went this way: How long shall we have to endure the ordeal of the Democratic primary? How long before we get to the real thing?

    But now it turns out that the primary season - extended, it was said, beyond expectation or reason - was the real thing. And I say that because, at least to date, the current season - the season that was to bring a once-in-a-century contest between two men of different generations and clearly opposed ideologies - has been totally uninteresting.




    oops..lost link (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:42:19 PM EST
    Don't watch that - watch this! (none / 0) (#54)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:50:21 PM EST
    Peggy Lee - You won't regret it.

    No really, read at the link in the parent. But if that's all there is... sad.

    How have I lived this long and the body public has learned.... NOTHING.

    Parent

    On a personal level it's been good for me (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:49:25 PM EST
    that Hillary lost. I was totally absorbed with the primary race; now, I hardly care who wins in November, so I'm spending a lot  less time watching blogs.

    [here insert smiley face -- preview demands it] (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Klio on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:11:07 PM EST
    My experience as well, to the benefit of my actual work!

    Parent
    Yes, same here.. making some (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by MarkL on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:12:55 PM EST
    progress on my research now ( i think!)

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 4) (#132)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:00:43 PM EST
    I would probably be investing a lot of time in Hillary's election.  Now, I'm investing that time in my family instead.  I finally decided about a month ago that these Obama supporters are just so unbearable, they can go ahead and elect their nominee themselves, if they're able.

    Parent
    I'm just popping in (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:10:57 PM EST
    My oldest tured 16 today. We spent the day out grilling. It's nice to knw that while I was gon Obama managed to make it clear to his supporters that they aren't to use the Roe V. Wade argument. May every man who has ever told a woman what she should be allowed to do with her body(at the dentriment of it)be forced to suffer the pains of carrying around something that saps the nutrients from their body and alters their hormones.

    I wonder if he plans on offering any help for those women who he insists most go through mental distress whether they like it or not or if he does like the typical male that will never have that circumstance thrust upon him and IGNORE it.

    Snowballs have a better chance in Hades.......  

    Ah, first kid to get the driver's license soon? (none / 0) (#196)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:14:34 AM EST
    You have your own Hades ahead.  Hang in there.  But a tip:  When you get the car back, be sure to turn down the sound on the radio before you click it on.  You're driving along, you decide to catch the news, you click on the radio button -- and out comes the loudest sound level, usually on some station or playing a CD you never would select for yourself.

    It can make you hop the car right over a curb -- or lose control of the car as you take both hands off the wheel to cover your ears and save your hearing.  Hang in there. :-)

    Parent

    New York Times editorial board (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:15:38 PM EST
    agrees with posters here:  New and Not Improved

    Senator Barack Obama stirred his legions of supporters, and raised our hopes, promising to change the old order of things. He spoke with passion about breaking out of the partisan mold of bickering and catering to special pleaders, promised to end President Bush's abuses of power and subverting of the Constitution and disowned the big-money power brokers who have corrupted Washington politics.

    Lots of points in this editorial including FISA, etc.  

    unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:35:16 PM EST
    i've already met my once-a-month contribution limit to the nytimes ad statistics.

    Maybe there will be something interesting in august.

    Parent

    Whoa (5.00 / 0) (#164)
    by MsExPat on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:01:28 AM EST
    The Times calls Obama on his flip flopping, big time. Strong stuff, and so soon. He's been the "nominee" for like, 25 days now, right?

    Parent
    Anyone watching the ABC series, (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:20:37 PM EST
    "Hopkins," about Johns Hopkins Hospital, and some of the doctors and their patients?  

    I live 25 miles north of Baltimore, and not only have a family member who works at one of the Hopkins campuses, but have had family members treated there; it's quite a complex - really a city unto itself.  The area looks good on TV, but the hospital is located in a pretty bad area - typical of urban hospitals, I guess.

    We feel lucky to have such a great hospital so close.

    I watched for a few minutes (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:48:50 PM EST
    but it was the kind of show that makes disease too real, I turned it off and watched a rerun of Bachelorette, I'm still trying to figure out who she picks Monday night. I'm rooting for the snowboarder from Breckenridge.

    Parent
    I watched the first episode of Hopkins and (none / 0) (#102)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:27:16 PM EST
    enjoyed....already have the DVR set for every week til it ends....I miss that old show Trauma In The ER...that was very good too.

    Parent
    Two A+ Grades for Johns Hopkins (none / 0) (#103)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:27:23 PM EST
    Johns Hopkins...great doctors and great lacrosse

    Parent
    Hopkins (none / 0) (#114)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:38:01 PM EST
    Hopkins is the biggest slum landlord in the city. They own those bad neighborhoods - are slowly tearing them down to expand.

    Parent
    Dang! I missed it and I wanted (none / 0) (#160)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:56:01 PM EST
    to watch. I was thinking it started next week :( Hopefully they'll do the rerun of the first before the next, but if they don't I'll be there next week anyway. Thanks for the reminder :)

    Parent
    now the talking head on CNN (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:26:32 PM EST
    is using the supreme court threat to claim that no one onthe left will leave Obama over these flip/flops.

    I disagree.  The major worry I have about Obama is that he will nominate centrists to the courts in order to avoid fights with the right and make good on his theme of bipartisanship.

    And, i think the a dem controlled senate would be unable to stop a dem president from having centrists confirmed.  It would be much easier for a dem senate to stop McCain's judges than to stop Obama's.

    We need reliable liberal judges to replace the liberal judges that are going to be the ones to retire.  And, they need to be younger and healthier than Roberts and Alito.  I have no confidence that Obama would appoint such liberal judges.

    Well, he's wrong (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:37:21 PM EST
    because I already left.

    Parent
    I have no faith (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:55:06 PM EST
    Obama would do anything I would like him to, and I mean ANYTHING.

    Liberal judges?  Yeah, I like them too.  

    But I also like Roe v. Wade, gun control, separation between religion and state, and a whole host of used-to-be Democratic issues.  

    I'm still looking for the candidate that is going to pander to ME!  I want to be pandered to too!    

    Parent

    Oh - heard something on the radio (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:37:27 PM EST
    yesterday that just blew my mind...

    POTUS 08 on XM Radio airs a show called "PJM Political" - part of Pajamas Media - that I do not normally listen to because it makes my head hurt.  

    Yesterday, I heard Kathleen Parker, a conservative op-ed writer, being interviewed by Glenn Reynolds and "Dr. Helen" - whoever she is.  Parker has written a book called Save the Males, which is apparently predicated on the theory that "gender equity" has tipped too far toward women, with the result that males are being left behind.  This is, of course, bad for society.  Apparently, women have been allowed to bamboozle society into not only taking up their cause, but making it okay to demean and marginalize men at the same time.  This pervasive belief that women don't need men has broken down the family structure and weakened marriage.

    Seriously, that was her argument.

    I didn't hear more than about 5 minutes, but it just had me shaking my head; the interviewers were all but shouting "Hallelujah!"

    Sigh.

    Dr. Helen (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:54:24 PM EST
    is Glenn Reynolds' (law professor who writes Instapundit) wife (she is a forensic psychologist.) Her blog is here.

    She made an excellent movie about teen crime a few years ago called "Six."

    I consider them friends.

    Parent

    She's awful. So her column runs in my paper (none / 0) (#121)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:51:32 PM EST
    of course, neocon as it is.  I often cannot even look at her column until I've had lots of morning coffee.  And even then, I'd rather read Dear Abby.

    Parent
    a 1 (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:52:55 PM EST
    Because I am sick and tired of people categorizing dissent and opposition as irrational and delegitimizing that dissent as just about anger.

    Don't pretend you haven't read the actual arguments; they've been posted here many times.  

    And as far as I'm concerned the continued attack posts like yours and squeaky's are just as inappropriate as shilling for mccain.

    Really? (2.00 / 1) (#125)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:56:22 PM EST
    I voted for Hillary but have been equally critical of her and Obama as regards the war, crime and anything else I had a problem with.
    I have also been supportive of both when their positions pleased me.

    As far as I have read, you have only loooooved Hillary and bashed Obama at every chance possible.

    So much for principal.

    Parent

    and your (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:15:02 PM EST
    attempt to change the topic,
    qualifier of "as far as i've read"
    coupled with the exaggerated attack on loooooove/bashing

    suggests that while you may have your own principles you don't support basic principles of ethical discourse even among your peers.

    Because regardless of whether I have been loving or hating or supporting or opposing policies, systems, and candidates, you've been repeatedly attacking and marginalizing individuals on this blog.  It's not productive, not ethical, and suggests you have limited interest in the discussion required for democracy.

    Parent

    Yes As Far As I Have Read (2.00 / 1) (#142)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:23:50 PM EST
    And I have read most of your comments. You have only one purpose here and it is clear. It is dishonest to go on about principals about dissent and opposition when that is not what you are doing. Calling Obama an empty suit and all the other names is not dissent or opposition, it is bashing and smearing.

    There never was a dimes worth of difference between Hillary or Obama, just style and packaging, imo.

    And you are all principled about your right for dissent and opposition but you want to shut up others who find your positions shallow?

    Sounds like a big double standard to me.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:46 AM EST
    There never was a dimes worth of difference between Hillary or Obama, just style and packaging, imo.

    There was a huge difference between Clinton and Obama -- and that was in their Commitment and Principles.  

    You see, Hillary had the ability to make a commitment to something, a lifelong commitment.  She also had principles and she would never compromise on her principles.  She actually could "Stand for something."  

    Obama couldn't even remain committed to Reverend Wright.  You know why everyone says he throws people under the bus?  It's because he can't maintain his commitments to these people or ideals.  He compromises on his "principles" over and over again.  (Everyone calls it pandering and "pols being pols" but it's really compromising principles.)  Does he really stand for anything?

    So, you might think it's just "style and packaging" but it's really substance.  She's made of much tougher material than he is.    

    Parent

    I criticize everyone (5.00 / 3) (#153)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM EST
    realizing that no candidate is going to support my position on issues, but still, the Democratic nominee is better than the Republican.

    Parent
    i appreciate that position (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:13:27 AM EST
    and i appreciate that you don't snark/undermine people that hold different positions.

    It's one of the reasons I don't repeat the same posts/arguments from earlier this year: most people have already read them and many of them were contextual.  It's also one of the reason's why I've been quieter, except to deflate the balloon that certain pivots/panders are going to work.  

    Anyway, I feel the need to correct people when they come onto the blog and reframe a decision I and others made back in March or April -- before I was even angry.  I'm not here to advocate for PUMA, I'm here to analyze/critique and maybe play armchair quarterback, and the baity posts are a distraction.

    ------------
    Horse race aside, i'm an MPA and will continue to read the blog for the crime updates as much as anything.  

    Thanks for all you do.

    Parent

    I don't mean to put down valid opinions (none / 0) (#134)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:04:02 PM EST
    if they have valid opinions.  I'm rereading my comment to see if I've attacked or even insulted anyone.  Is the PUMA what you're referring to?  I don't think the PUMA approach will work to elect a democrat, and given it's name, it's definitely about anger.  But we can agree to disagree on that if you think it's a positive movement that will help our party.  

    What about the rest of what I wrote?  I'm all for dumping Obama if he's really a turncoat or stealth candidate, and if there's another viable option (not McCain).  So what can we do to move forward?  

    Parent

    sigh. (5.00 / 3) (#157)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:53:24 PM EST
    Allow me to channel Big tent-like indignation:

    Who the hell are you to define valid opinions?
    And do you expect me to believe you reread your first paragraph and didn't see your attack and marginalization?

    And since when does Principles+Resolve+Snark ==Anger?

    Spare me.  I don't care whether we agree or disagree, I care that when someone is called on reframing a principled and commonly held position that they at least friggin recognize it and apologize.

    here is one example of a "valid opinion"
    there are many others, and that particular one isn't that great because it's too high level.  

    ---
    i am not debating that argument here and if you want me to just participate in pure emotionless political discussion, then leave the attacks out of your next post.


    Parent

    Two Must-Reads (in my opinion): (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:57:45 PM EST
    The Guardian's two-part piece on how the American left co-opted the right-wing rhetoric against the Clintons for the primaries:

    Part 1

    Part 2

    "Billary", the two-headed monster created by the rightwing to demonize the "two-for-one" presidency of Bill Clinton and his feminist, advisor wife Hillary Clinton, also stumbled out of its grave, given new life by liberals who defended the Clintons against the very same attack when it was her being used against him during his administration, but now found it politically expedient to use him against her. Billary was back in vogue, and infamous Clinton-haters in the media like Maureen Dowd or Chris Matthews (who remains as fixated on Clinton scandals, especially the Lewinsky matter - the scandal that made his career - as ever) accused Hillary of being nothing without her husband, only having come within inches of the presidency because her husband had cheated on her. The progressive blogosphere largely remained silent, or, worse, acquiesced by suggesting there was some truth to the categorisation.

    and the leaked accounts of the meeting Obama had with evangelical leaders a couple weeks ago, as told by The Nation.

    Ah, the Bible according to Rezko (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:14:50 PM EST
    re the preacher who declared "it is unscriptural not to own land."  What a glimpse that article gives.

    But yeh, Obama's time with the evvies didn't work -- per the coverage of this weekend's meeting of 100 Christian right preachers and leaders to coalesce around McCain.  All that pandering and no payoff.  When will it finally p*ss off his fans?  Are they reading this coverage or only whatever is on his website?

    Parent

    That Guardian piece is a reprint (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:22:51 PM EST
    from Shakesville by Melissa McEwan. Love to know the story of why they ran it. It is good.

    Parent
    Here's the scariest part (none / 0) (#139)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:17:54 PM EST
    Through his daily radio broadcast--the third most popular program in the United States--

    If Obama's outreach to evangelicals can usurp some of that conversation, our party's future will be a lot brighter.

    Parent

    This PUMA stuff is a kneejerk angry reaction. (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:51:14 PM EST
    WRONG.

    Okaaay. What is it then? (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:56:53 PM EST
    A) A way to get a Democrat elected as Prez.

    B) A way to keep half the Democrats engaged in case Hillary wins the nomination.

    C) A friendly, joking response to what happened in the primary season.

    Help me out here.  Are PUMA people not angry?  Is it a productive movement that I don't understand yet?

    Parent

    You know I wrote a bunch of other stuff (none / 0) (#162)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:59:26 PM EST
    in that comment.  Want to talk about any of that?

    Parent
    A confession (5.00 / 5) (#188)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:57:53 AM EST
    I have been cheating on TL.  I have gone to an unnamed at this time site's, beta new site testing their product.  I must say, what I love about TL

    1.  You don't have to each time you comment have to write an encyclopedia about the history of the world and politics.

    2.  Humor, people here have a real sense of humor.
    3.  Scolders vs. victims, the universe is not divided between those who scold and those who crumble at the implication of criticism, telling you about their dysfunctional family.  UGH.  Enough.  
    4.  There are some truly critical thinkers at TL.
    5.  TL is my first read.
    Group hug and happy 4th of July.  


    awww (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:12:01 AM EST
    But who do I get to complain to about SF?

    Where I can get a doctor's appointment the same day in San Francisco and yet have to wait 14 days to get the lab appointment for the tests the doctor wants....

    Gah.  And they didn't enroll me in healthy san francisco, so I have to take a morning off work, hand over the same income verification forms to the same people, and then go to SFGH if I want lab work before the 19th.

    The doctor was very good though, this time, last time I was stereotyped the moment i walked in the door which is kinda annoying...I keep forgetting that you have to tone down the gay with doctors because some make assumptions and ask particular questions based on your group social profile.

    Parent

    Here's Glenn Greenwald's take on Obama's (4.00 / 1) (#99)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:24:57 PM EST
    latest statement on FISA for those who are interested:

    http://utdocuments.blogspot.com/2008/07/obamas-new-statement-on-fisa.html

    This statement has so many equivocations and vague claims as to be worthless. In a society that lives under the rule of law, government officials and corporations which break our laws are held accountable by courts of law, not by vague promises from politicians of some future "review" and "recommendation" process grounded in claims that we can trust the Leader to do the right thing, whatever he decides in his sole discretion and infinite wisdom that might be. That is no consolation for blocking courts from adjudicating whether laws were broken here, which is what the bill that Obama supports will do.

    I'm Surprised, Sort Of (2.00 / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:07:33 PM EST
    Senator Clinton voted NO on the Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 2003, a bill banning the late term abortions known as partial-birth abortions, except to save a mother's life.  HOWEVER, Clinton states in the Oct. 13, 2000 debate for the NY Senate race that she could vote for a ban on such abortions if the mother's health, as well as the mother's life were in danger.  The Bill made no exception for a mother's health, which was why Clinton could never vote for the bill.

    where I stand

    Wonder whether she would also draw the line against mental distress as a reason for late term abortion. Looks like, as in most issues, she is identical with Obama.

    I am wondering how she can (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by MichaelGale on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:42:21 PM EST
    campaign for a man who is discounting the women she represents.

    How will she answer the question when asked; "Do you agree with Senator Obama that mental distress is out as a criteria for late term abortion?"

    Parent

    From What I Gather (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:46:18 PM EST
    She is on the same page regarding that. Both of them voted against the measure only because it did not include language regarding the health of the mother. Had that language been in both would have voted for the ban.

    Parent
    What does her voting history (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:09:02 AM EST
    and actions say? Mothers health doesn't say she's on the same page as him. That rates as a vague term, imo, and needs to be defined. He seems to have clarified some of the mother's health language by saying "mental distress" doesn't qualify. Until I hear that from her, I can't say they're on the "same page". I don't see how you can either.

    Parent
    so, you think (none / 0) (#144)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:30:57 PM EST
    mental distress is healthy?

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#146)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:35:09 PM EST
    Obama's position NOW is that he would BAN (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:49:30 PM EST
    abortions even ifthe mother had mental distress.  So, Obama doesn't consider mental distress to be a health issue for the mother because it wouldn't qualify as an exception under "Health of the Mother".  So, Obama must consider mental distress to be healthy

    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#156)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:52:41 PM EST
    You are twisting his words.  

    Parent
    Bwwwaaaaahhhhh! (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:52:21 AM EST
    Really, how much are you getting for this mental pretzeling?

    Parent
    when the mother is crazy, that can (none / 0) (#195)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:14:01 AM EST
    be bad for the health of the child, too. Mortally so, sometimes:

    Susan Smith, etc.

    Obama is being very shortsighted in not supporting the mental distress argument, because it is much more profound than physical health. And physical health is a good reason. So mental health is even more so. Both for the mothers health, and the childs.

    Parent

    Erm (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:57:12 PM EST
    That's pretty different from Obama's position in my book.  I suppose you could assume she only means physical health unless she says otherwise, but that's not what she said.

    Parent
    As Far As I Know (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:02:49 PM EST
    This is the first time Obama made a distinction regarding mental distress. I went to the magazine and it seemed out of the blue, almost a non-sequitur. I wonder if the article was edited so that the question was left out.

    Hillary has, as far as I can tell been in line, up til now, with Obama as to the reason they both voted against the ban.

    I guess, for me it should be up to the woman period. So both of them seem about the same, imo.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:20:40 PM EST
    It's hardly up to the woman period if both she and her doctor agree that the pregnancy should be terminated for reasons of mental trauma, but it can't happen because the law says that's not a good enough reason.

    It's possible the interview was edited, or that Obama simply understood going in that this is an important sub-issue for pro-lifers.  When Democrats say there has to be a health exception, pro-lifers turn that into "they're saying all you have to do is claim you're depressed that day and want an abortion" which, needless to say, is not something that ever happens in the real world.

    Parent

    Sub Text (none / 0) (#143)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:30:16 PM EST
    What is was about. It does not make any sense that Obama or Hillary would rule out serious mental illness from their "health" stipulations. But who knows.

    It sounds plausible that the context was along the lines of "they're saying all you have to do is claim you're depressed that day and want an abortion".

    Parent

    You would not know enough (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:56:01 AM EST
    to make your absurd assertion, Squeaks, unless and until you also had a quote from Senator Clinton that would distinguish "mental distress" from overall health of the mother.

    As you don't have that quote, and you won't get it from Senator Clinton, please stop this silliness.  You always are cantankerous, but you usually do not so blatantly disrespect this blog with such blather.

    Parent

    Nonsense (none / 0) (#191)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:08:12 AM EST
    Nothing disrespectful about anything I have said. I believe that Obama and Hillary have identical positions on Late Term Abortion.

    Unlike many here, I take the view that mental distress as it was used by Obama is not a technical term but a colloquial term meaning anything from mild depression, to being stressed out about being ready to give birth.

    Hillary talks about severe health problems or losing the ability to bear children, as the missing language in the bill she voted against.

    Personally I would like a clarification from Obama on this. Nothing he has ever said would suggest that a woman who was having severe mental health problems would not qualify as an exception to a ban on late term abortions.

    Parent

    nothing except for... (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:12:36 AM EST
    I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term.


    Parent
    It's Up To The Doctor (none / 0) (#198)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:21:25 AM EST
    Is Hillary suggesting that it is not up to the doctor, in her ideal version of the bill?

    Parent
    No matter how you slice it (none / 0) (#201)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:50:01 AM EST
    I believe any statute would require that a doctor certify the statutory prerequisites for a late-term abortion are met.

    The question is what the prerequisites should be.  If there has to be a serious physical problem, then the doctor has to certify that a serious physical problem is present.  If he thinks the woman's mental state is such that she shouldn't carry the baby to term, there's nothing he can do about it (except break the law, of course).

    Parent

    In Any Case (none / 0) (#200)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:42:29 AM EST
    It was a stupid thing to say. Considering that it is all over the place I am sure that we will get clarification as to whether he was using a medical term.

    Parent
    Sounds to me like pandering (none / 0) (#202)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:50:13 AM EST
    to evangelicals and anti-abortion voters.

    I'm not worried that Prez Obama would go out of his way to try to limit choice.

    Parent

    I'm a little confused... (none / 0) (#148)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:42:57 PM EST
    Didn't you say this bill was in 2003?  Obama wasn't in the Senate then.  How could he have voted for or against it?  

    Parent
    Correct (none / 0) (#172)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:21:06 AM EST
    Although, judging by his positions and Illinois record it is clear that he would have voted against it for the same reasons as Hillary. He voted against the "Born Alive" bill which was a similar attempt to overturn roe v wade.

    Parent
    The Born Alive bill (none / 0) (#178)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:32:15 AM EST
    was NOTHING like the Partial Birth Abortion ban!  

    The Born Alive bill denied medical care to babies that might have survived an abortion!  I believe Obama was the only state senator to vote the way he did.  How could anyone vote to deny medical care to a baby that is born alive?!  Roe v. Wade does not cover that!    


    Parent

    It Was A Stealth (none / 0) (#180)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:39:23 AM EST
    Bill that was a anti-abortion agenda, much like the partial birth bill. Notice the similar sounding language in the title?

    But now Obama is a baby killer?

    Here is what he had to say about it:

    The other email rumor that's been floating around is that somehow I'm unwilling to see doctors offer life-saving care to children who were born as a result of an induced abortion. That's just false. There was a bill that came up in Illinois that was called the "Born Alive" bill that purported to require life-saving treatment to such infants. And I did vote against that bill. The reason was that there was already a law in place in Illinois that said that you always have to supply life-saving treatment to any infant under any circumstances, and this bill actually was designed to overturn Roe v. Wade, so I didn't think it was going to pass constitutional muster.

    Relevant Magazine


    Parent

    I like the Chicago Tribune (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 02:08:43 AM EST
    instead of Relevant Magazine, don't you?  
    Chicago Tribune:  Obama Part 7;  Careful Steps, Looking Ahead

    SPRINGFIELD - Sen. Barack Obama calls himself a strong defender of abortion rights, and the presidential contender quickly condemned the recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling upholding a ban on a controversial late-term procedure. The decision, he feared, "will embolden state legislatures to enact further measures to restrict a woman's right to choose."

    But this is how Obama voted in 1997 when he was new to the Illinois legislature and got a chance to take a stand against bills to impose a similar statewide ban on what critics call partial-birth abortion:

    "Present," the political equivalent of taking a pass.

    <snip>

    Legislators face an array of sensitive topics, but few pack the emotional and political wallop of abortion. Obama has long publicly promoted his support for abortion rights, but his voting record in Springfield is not simple to read.

    Obama said he sought compromise with abortion opponents, but they balked. As a fallback, he said he worked out an arrangement with abortion-rights advocates to encourage Democrats to vote "present" on some bills if they feared a "no"would look insensitive and endanger their re-election.

    But few of the other Democrats who voted "present" on abortion bills recall such a strategy. And, like Obama, they weren't politically vulnerable.

    So, Obama says he only voted "present" because it was a strategy?  A strategy only he remembers?  

    Obama audio on Born Alive bill

    I don't have speakers on this computer so I can't hear this...  ???  

    Here's another link to someone who has researched his votes on this issue and provides references:  Jill Stanek, Pro-Life Pulse

    I'm receiving more and more email requests for corroboration of Barack Obama's votes on IL's Born Alive Infant Protection Act as state senator. So I'm going to write a permanent post.

    It was brought up in the Illinois senate too many times for me to provide links to all of them but they are all available at the last link I posted.

    Parent

    But "she" is not the nominee!!!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by zfran on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:33:25 PM EST
    True (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:37:13 PM EST
    But this is an open thread. And I do not know if you are aware, but Hillary is a subtext in most threads here, irregardless of the fact that she is not the nominee.

    Parent
    Irregardless is not a word n/t (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:55:48 PM EST
    Thanks (none / 0) (#171)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:15:54 AM EST
    I thought that little green line in my spelling and grammar box was trying to tell me something. Usually it is red..... as I am a terrible speller and my grammar, uhg.  

    Never paid any attention during english... oh well, I am good at art and music.

    Parent

    It is to those who (none / 0) (#187)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:57:06 AM EST
    are so confused about principles that they spell it principals.

    Parent
    I'd love to hear how she answers that question (none / 0) (#152)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:50:01 PM EST
    not that politicians can be trusted to tell the truth.  

    Parent
    Actually, depending on the issue (none / 0) (#167)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:11:29 AM EST
    and politician, I think you can count on some of their words.

    Parent
    Late term abortions are not (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:52:16 PM EST
    usually done unless the mother's health or life is in danger.  I don't know if it's even possible to have an "elective" late term abortion because most doctors won't do them (late term abortions).  

    The most common, safest way to perform them was the style called "Partial birth" by the pro-life groups.

    Hillary refused to vote for a ban on the procedure if "mother's health" wasn't included which I think is reasonable -- and I think severe mental distress would fall under the "mother's health" catagory.    

    Parent

    Considering Hillary's UHC plan (none / 0) (#175)
    by americanincanada on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:29:50 AM EST
    includes mental health parity I would assume she would include mental distress and will continue to believe so until someone proves otherwise with a link or direct quote.

    Parent
    No, not elective. Requires medical approval (none / 0) (#189)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:00:11 AM EST
    and it thus would be health care professionals who would define health -- and as we saw in comments here, mental distress is defined as a health condition to be diagnosed by a doctor.  

    Ergo, as ever, Clinton is saying to leave it a woman and her physician.  Why it is so hard for Squeaky to see the obvious comes under another health condition.

    Parent

    what do you mean by (none / 0) (#190)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:04:53 AM EST
    another health condition?

    Parent
    Has anyone made a flip flop list on Obama? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Saul on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:04:56 PM EST
    Is there a web site that has them listed?

    Flip flopping is one thing (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Jim J on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:11:23 PM EST
    but sticking a finger in your own supporters' eyes is something completely different.

    There is an arrogance about Obama's blatant policy reversals, an unspoken "so what are you going to do about it" attitude that I find disgusting, as well as distressingly familiar.

    As usual, the Obamabots are simply thrilled that he "noticed" them in tonight's Dear John letter on FISA. They have always sold themselves very cheaply.

    Parent

    Being ecstatic about getting form letter (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:12:50 PM EST
    is just pathetic. I mean, if the letter addressed the concerns, that would be one thing. But jeez!

    Parent
    Are you officially (none / 0) (#12)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:23:41 PM EST
    off the Obama Bandwagon?

    Parent
    I was never on the bandwagon (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:30:58 PM EST
    He has my vote, but not much else.

    Parent
    The vote is all that counts (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:37:01 PM EST
    Harsh words fall on empty ears. All he wants is your vote. After you give him that you have given him all he wants and have received all you are going to get.

    Sorry but it is true.

    Parent

    Thank you for your opinion (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:38:51 PM EST
    I disagree.

    Parent
    Ahhhh, the vote (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:42:51 PM EST
    is all that really matters.  

    Parent
    To him, that is. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:45:22 PM EST
    My position is that, beyond the primary, (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:48:33 PM EST
    I have to have a really good reason not to vote for the nominee. Essentially, McCain would have to be a better choice. And he's not.

    Parent
    Examine the Facts So Far (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:54:37 PM EST
    I said "harsh words" and "all you are going to get" So he received harsh words over the last two weeks and what did you get?

    A reworked speech in the form of a form letter that said he agrees to disagree with you and that's that.

    We all know a Pol is going to be most responsive when he needs your vote or wants money. That is what we have today. And what did you get?

    And that is all you are going to get.

    So I don't know what you are disagreeing with. It's only going to get worse.

    Parent

    I think he wants my money (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:49:27 PM EST
    as much as he wants my vote.  More in fact, since I live in Florida which he does not care about winning.

    Parent
    No he has plenty of big money (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:13:09 PM EST
    Doesn't need the little guys anymore... he will be too busy to give speeches for the next couple of weeks.

    NYT  Fund raising

    [The Obama campaign was initially powered last year in large part by high-dollar donors, but his schedule of traditional fund-raising events fell off this year in the face of a packed campaign schedule. Mr. Obama attended only a handful of fund-raisers, relying instead on contributions over the Internet.

    Now, with his schedule freed up and faced with the need to raise more than $200 million for the general election, Mr. Obama's major fund-raisers are eager to have him back to headline events that require attendees at the highest echelons to contribute more than $30,000 a person to a joint fund-raising committee]

    {Wednesday in Colorado Springs and attended a $1,000 a person ...Chicago on Wednesday...attendees needed to contribute or raise $28,500....Wednesday evening, Ms. Pritzker... were hosts of a dinner for high-dollar donors -- the required contribution was also $28,500 ...Last week...collected about $5 million at an event featuring celebrities in Los Angeles...200 people who had contributed $28,500 per couple, or raised $50,000.

    It continues, but the point is, he's fine for money.  Dennis Quaid and Samuel Jackson got your back.

    Parent

    He never needed the little guy's money... (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:51:58 PM EST
    ...he just needed to say that was where his money came from so that the little guy could feel "invested" in him. You get what you pay for, I guess.

    Parent
    how much worse would it haveto get for him (none / 0) (#57)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:51:31 PM EST
    to lose your vote?

    Parent
    Sam Nunn (none / 0) (#60)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:52:35 PM EST
    You are VERY tolerant. (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:58:10 PM EST
    I am a Democrat (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:00:16 PM EST
    and I will go out of my way to avoid enabling McCain and the Republicans.

    Parent
    well i'd rather not enable (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:35:26 PM EST
    what Obama and the DNC did this time around either

    Parent
    Are they really? (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:53:17 PM EST
    Then his flattery worked.  To me that letter was just the same statement he made last week, coupled with more praise for the grassroots.  I guess the one line shout-out he gave them in the statement last week was not enough.

    Makes me wish Hillary had found a way to praise the grassroots for influencing her in her AUMF vote. Maybe she should have said that they convinced her that we needed weapons inspectors in Iraq, so she fought for that and got it.

    Parent

    Many obama followers would have no (none / 0) (#9)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:17:42 PM EST
    problem if he stuck all his fingers in their eyes.
    But, it also appears that many are starting to feel the tingle of buyer's remorse.

    Parent
    I'm sure some repug website has something if (none / 0) (#2)
    by Angel on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:07:42 PM EST
    you are inclined to venture into that territory.  But don't worry.  After the convention all the 527s will be out and I'm sure they'll have plenty of this as ammo in their commercials.  

    Parent
    Glenn Greenwald Posted (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by talex on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:34:46 PM EST
    the following list on Tuesday:

    Obama has done the following:

    • intervened in a Democratic Congressional primary to support one of the worst Bush-enabling Blue Dogs over a credible, progressive challenger;

    • announced his support for Bush's FISA bill, reversing himself completely on this issue;

    • sided with the Scalia/Thomas faction in two highly charged Supreme Court decisions;

    • repudiated Wesley Clark and embraced the patently false media narrative that Clark had "dishonored McCain's service" (and for the best commentary I've seen, by far, on the Clark matter, see this appropriately indignant piece by Iraq veteran Brandon Friedman);

    • condemned MoveOn.org for its newspaper advertisement criticizing Gen. Petraeus;

    • defended his own patriotism by impugning the patriotism of others, specifically those in what he described as the "the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties" for "attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself" and -- echoing Jeanne Kirkpatrick's 1984 RNC speech -- "blaming America for all that was wrong with the world";

    • unveiled plans "to expand President Bush's program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and -- in a move sure to cause controversy . . . letting religious charities that receive federal funding consider religion in employment decisions," a move that could "invite a storm of protest from those who view such faith requirements as discrimination" -- something not even the Bush faith programs allowed.

    That's quite a two weeks.

    Of course this doesn't include from Tuesday until now.

    Parent

    I thought those guys were his good buddies (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Amiss on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:08:18 AM EST
    You know the Ayers and Dohrns etc of the 60's?

    "the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties" for "attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself" and -- echoing Jeanne Kirkpatrick's 1984 RNC speech -- "blaming America for all that was wrong with the world";

    That is exactly how they acted too. Along with the SDS and others. Another flip/flop?

    Parent

    No Quarter has the list (none / 0) (#8)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:16:24 PM EST
    can someone explain to me... (none / 0) (#4)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:12:01 PM EST
    I admit that after Hillary suspended I have stopped watching cable talk.  So, can someone help me out and explain why Obama had to do a special presser today and explain how he really, really, really does plan to start withdrawing troops from Iraq at 1 - 2 divisons per month and get us out of there in 16 months?  You know, the Clinton plan....

    I think he needed to do it, because he forgot (none / 0) (#7)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:15:53 PM EST
    which story he told about what the last time around, before it was something else.... :)

    link

    Parent

    How many do-overs will the American People (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Amiss on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:12:38 AM EST
    stand for from this pol?
    Less than four hours later, after the town hall meeting, Obama appeared before reporters for another statement and round of questions to "try this again."


    Parent
    Wrong, it was Obama's plan (none / 0) (#15)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:24:59 PM EST
    Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months.


    Parent
    That's right. Hillary NEVER comitted to something (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:33:44 PM EST
    as foolish as a 16 month promiase of withdrawl, but he's dropped that part.

    Parent
    Still on his website (none / 0) (#34)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:42:07 PM EST
    He's straddling the fence.

    Parent
    Just wait until he gets back from Iraq. (none / 0) (#48)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:48:11 PM EST
    He Has Clarified (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:55:53 PM EST
    No different than Hillary on this, ever, imo.

    "Let me be as clear as I can be," he said. "I intend to end this war. My first day in office I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in, and I will give them a new mission, and that is to end this war -- responsibly, deliberately, but decisively. And I have seen no information that contradicts the notion that we can bring our troops out safely at a pace of one to two brigades a month, and again, that pace translates into having our combat troops out in 16 months' time."

    [snip]

    Republicans are attempting to put Mr. Obama in the political equivalent of a double bind: trying to paint him as impervious to the changing reality on the ground if he sticks to his plan, and as a flip-flopper if he alters it to reflect changing circumstances.

    NYT

    Parent

    Uh, wha? Never different than Hillary? (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:00:54 PM EST
    He promised to get the troops out in 16 months.  She never made such a promise.  Not ever.  

    Parent
    It's sad that one of the reasons Obama won in the (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:19:28 PM EST
    primaries is that he made all of these dumb promises that he didn't even believe in or intend to follow through on.

    He promised to get the troops out of Iraq in 16 months.

    He promised to meet with rouge leaders without preconditions.

    He pledged to take campaign finance in the general election.

    And so on, and so on.

    He attacked Hillary for not making these stances, but now is completely avoiding them.

    Parent

    Words, Words, Words (none / 0) (#88)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:13:20 PM EST
    If you look closely at both positions, you will see that the word responsible is the biiiiiig  qualifier.

    The bottom line is, after pouring over their respective positions, that we will continue to occupy Iraq, perhaps with troop reductions, and then on to Afghanistan. But neither ever promised a total withdrawl.

    This is essentially our foreign policy, WOT. Be it Iraq, Afghanistan or wherever, we are going to be fighting for a while.

    Parent

    Are you fricken kidding me? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:22:27 PM EST
    I have no illusions that Hillary would be able to enact her plan.  I think she would not have.  But it's a FAR CRY from promising everyone out in 16 months.  

    Parent
    OK (2.00 / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:27:10 PM EST
    Have it your way. It is a gross distortion to say that Obama promised, without any qualifications, that he would get the troops out in 16 months,  but it seems to make you happy.

    Anyone who bought either of their heavily qualified BS about ending the war was drunk on kool aid, imo.

    Parent

    Well, lot;'s of people bought the 16 months (none / 0) (#115)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:42:04 PM EST
    promise.  The promise to remove all combat troops in 16 months.  He made it.  People bought it.  Hell, remember, Hillary was castigated by Obama and his supporters when she wouldn't garauntee not to not leave a contingent force in Iraq.  He was the one who was going to get all the troops out, every single one of them, in 16 months.  He made that promise, not Hillary.

    Parent
    neither one of them ever (none / 0) (#107)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:34:15 PM EST
    promised to get ALL the troops out.  they both intended to leave some troops there or in the region to protect the embassy and contractors, finish training Iraqis and fight any of Al Queda that remained.  Edwards promised to get all COMBAT troops out. Kucinich promised to get ALL troops completely out.

    And, yes, Clinton said withdraw 1 - 2 divisions per month out starting within 60 days of taking office.  She just never said that it would be done in 16 months

    Parent

    No, no, no... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by masslib on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:43:03 PM EST
    He promised to remove all the troops in 16 months.  The contigent force would be nearby but not in Iraq.

    Parent
    that is simply not true (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:59:20 PM EST
    Edwards was the one who promised any contigent troops would be "nearby" and not in Iraq.

    go back and review what was said in the debates

    Parent

    Wrong again. He backpedaled on that plan (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:35:35 PM EST
    the day after he claimed the nomination -- see interview with Cindy Crowley on CNN, in which he sounded just like Bush.  It's just that the media honeymoon is over now, so they're following up on it.

    Parent
    I was surprised tonight (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:43:47 PM EST
    because it appeared that even NBC had turned on Obama regarding his Iraq statements.  Brian Williams was out, so it was Lester Holt -- but still.  

    They also interviewed John McCain and asked him if it was true that he might ask an Independent or a Democrat to be his VP.  McCain said "I can't talk about that."  

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by Steve M on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:56:58 PM EST
    Remember when the reason to nominate Obama was that unlike in 2004, we'd finally be able to present a clear difference on Iraq?

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:03:20 PM EST
    And if we were going to nominate a pragmatic politician we could have had the one that is a real fighter and would also be 'ready on day one'.

    Oh well, we'll enjoy the speeches I guess.

    Parent

    go back and ceck her position (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:40:10 PM EST
    she committed to start withdrawing 1 - 2 divisons per month within 60 days of taking office.  And, it was her position before it was his

    Parent
    New article in New Yorker (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:48:42 PM EST
    Iraq is stabilizing with the troops escalation.  Withdrawing suddenly would be very unwise.  Obama will have to amend his original plan.  His original plan now predicted to be catastrophic. Things have changed there.  The centerpiece of Obama's campaign will be mute.

    Parent
    Saw that. First time in too long a time (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:00:34 PM EST
    that the New Yorker coverage of the campaign wasn't by Hendrik Hertzberg.  Thus, the difference.

    My subscription renewal is coming up.  First time in decades that I'm thinking about whether to bother, as the stoopid campaign coverage made it not worth the money for months.  Never thought I'd say that about one of my favorite mags for half a century.  (No, I'm not that old; I started reading the cartoons and fillers when just a kid.:-)

    Parent

    The Obama commercial playing here in Georgia (none / 0) (#10)
    by kenosharick on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:19:21 PM EST
    is very irksome. He claims credit for singlehandedly passing legislation which is a lie. Add that to the flip-flopping and kissing up to the religious right and he is driving me furher away than ever. BTW- is he ever so slightly changing his position on Iraq? Anyone else sick to death of hearing how he "voted against the war" when in reality he had no such vote at the time?

    Hes laying commercials here in Virginia too (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:59:08 PM EST
    I don't know the full content because I changed the hannel after I got the sob story of how he was raised by a single mother. It'd be different if I saw policies that were designed to help single mothers but I realy don't. His policies are geared towards middle class(including his credit for homeownership).

    Parent
    kenosharick....I am fairly sick of every- (none / 0) (#11)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:22:21 PM EST
    thing obama as of now.  I do find myself pondering
    if he has decided he does NOT want to be president and is purposely trying to get kicked to the curb...if he cares for America, that is what he will do....GO HILLARY...

    Parent
    Is that the same commercial (none / 0) (#108)
    by Grace on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:35:00 PM EST
    where he claims to have "worked his way through college and law school"?  

    I read it somewhere today (I think it was on factcheck.org) that he held two summer jobs - one in construction and the other one with a law firm.  They didn't consider that to be "working your way through college."  

    Parent

    probably (none / 0) (#127)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:57:25 PM EST
    I haven't made it through the commercial. Rather than get myself aggravated, I find myself turning the TV off or putting on food porn(Food network) or HGTV.

    Parent
    What are your thoughts on O selecting Elizabeth (none / 0) (#14)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:24:52 PM EST
    Edwards for this position?
    From CNN
    Elizabeth Edwards, wife of 2004 vice presidential nominee John Edwards, is the headliner for the coalition, which includes a who's who list of liberal organizations such as MoveOn.org, the housing group ACORN, Americans United for Change, the Campaign for America's Future, the Center for American Progress Action Fund, the National Education Association, National Women's Law Center, Planned Parenthood and the Service Employees International Union.

    The group's goal is to provide "quality, affordable health care for every American," and it obviously dovetails with the Obama campaign's promise of providing universal health care. The group will spend $25 million in paid media, while also funding 100 organizers involved in events around the country.


    Did Obama select her? (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:29:12 PM EST
    Why is he selecting the head of a coalition that presumably is being formed to pressure him for universal health care?  Does not make sense to me.

    Parent
    also, where are they getting 25 million? (4.50 / 2) (#19)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:31:08 PM EST
    wouldn't that provide an awful lot of healthcare instead of spending it on media?

    they shouldn't have a problem getting free and donated press.

    Parent

    when did the Obama campaign (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:42:50 PM EST
    ever promise to provide UHC?  Obama proposed to provide access to insurance if you felt like buying it.  there wasn't ever anything universal about it.  That was Edwards' complaint about his plan in the first place

    Parent
    OOBAMA NEVER PUSHED UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:51:44 PM EST
    NEVER.  His plan always left out millions of Americans.  I am sure I would be one of those.

    Parent
    except (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:19:24 PM EST
    he would always say they weren't "left out".  They could buy insurance if they wanted it.  They were just the millions that didn't want insurance

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by cawaltz on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:02:16 PM EST
    I still remember when he made universal health care appear lik providing it would mean you'd be forcing people to choose between rent and health care an how he deceptively didn't mention that BOTH Edwards and Clinton intended on subsidizing the most needy so there would never be that choice.

    Parent
    This coalition (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:55:47 PM EST
    is not part of the Obama campaign and he selected no one for it.

    This coalition is being created to pressure him about UHC.

    Parent

    Ohhhh. Now it makes sense. (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:05:08 PM EST
    Sorry I don't know how to link, however, I read (none / 0) (#94)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:20:24 PM EST
    <

    this on Huffington Post today:

    blockquote><blockquote>Elizabeth Edwards appeared on this morning's Good Morning America to discuss the Democratic Party's approach to universal health care. While Edwards had previously stated a preference for the health care proposal created by New York Senator Hillary Clinton over that of Senator Barack Obama, she told GMA host (and fellow cancer battler) Robin Roberts that she plans to "partner" with Obama on health care, and is "already working with this team with respect to health care."</blockquote></blockquote>
    [WATCH.]

    Parent

    All true (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:23:15 PM EST
    but not the same thing as the coalition she is heading.

    I'll believe Obama is going to change in UHC when I actually see the mandates ener his program.

    As much as like EE it is Hillary Clinton who Obama shoud be 'partnering with' on UHC.

    Parent

    It's another insult to Hillary that he isn't (none / 0) (#106)
    by mogal on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:28:54 PM EST
    working with her on UHC>

    Parent
    I view it as a positive (none / 0) (#22)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:32:57 PM EST
    But then, I am the perversely optimistic Cassandra who always hopes for the best while preparing for the worst.

    Maybe (and recall I always hope these things will give me some concrete reason to vote for O) he has FINALLY realized that his recent running to the alleged center will not help him in the GE, as Glenzilla says.

    If he throws EE under the bus, though... c'est fini entre nous! Je vous le jure!

    Parent

    Remember when she came out for Hillary's (none / 0) (#173)
    by Amiss on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:23:11 AM EST
    Health care plan? Guess why............she wanted that position and the Clinton's provided it for her.

    Parent
    "is the headliner for the coalition" (none / 0) (#16)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:28:07 PM EST
    What coalition? Do you have a link?

    It is a non-partisan coalition (5.00 / 0) (#120)
    by americanincanada on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:47:26 PM EST
    to lobby for UHC. I guess she doesn't have a lot of faith that her 'partnership' with Obama.

    LINK

    Parent

    Thank you!!! :) (none / 0) (#183)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:41:03 AM EST
    I'm thinking some of the late comers don't have faith. Either that, or they are seriously lacking the ability to project it ;)

    again, thanks for the link. I would have missed this bit of info :)

    Parent

    Does anyone know where Obama stands (none / 0) (#20)
    by standingup on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:31:36 PM EST
    on the issue of criminal charges in cases where a pregnant woman is murdered and the unborn child also dies?  I am curious if he has made any statements on this subject yet.  

    I am locked down in Atlanta (none / 0) (#21)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:31:37 PM EST
    both Pride and the Peachtree Road Race have moved to my neighborhood because of Georgia's drought.

    So all streets all blocked in my area, and I'm trapped, trapped I tell you!

    Fireworks already going off, too.

    It's like this every year, and I don't really mind.

    Is it a good lockdown? (none / 0) (#26)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:35:12 PM EST
    My 'hood is prime viewing for fireworks with the NYC backdrop. Although much of the riverfront is being built up, so maybe not so much this year. They'll need a rooftop! lol!~

    Parent
    Could be worse (none / 0) (#29)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:36:23 PM EST
    No view of fireworks, though.  I used to have a primo view when I worked at CNN, but those days are no more!

    Parent
    CNN? (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:47:05 PM EST
    why are all the talking heads on Anderson Cooper saying that Obama's flip/flops to the center are a politically GOOD move?  Apparently they all think he'll gain votes from the center and not lose any from the left.

    And, they keep saying, well McCain flip/flopped too.  But, to me the difference is that McCain flipped TOWARD his base and Obama is flipping away from his.  Also, McCain finished all his flipping before he started his primary run.  Obama just started his flopping around and it's something new almost every day.

    Parent

    Because (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:51:51 PM EST
    (she said dryly) that's what Obama supporters do.

    Justify their love.

    Parent

    I laughed when Coop said (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:22:05 PM EST
    " They used to call it triangulation when Bill Clinton did it."

    Parent
    during the primary (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:27:52 PM EST
    Obama called it "saying anythignto get elected"

    Parent
    I'm stuck indoors with the dog (none / 0) (#39)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:43:17 PM EST
    she's afraid of fireworks. It's actually a good excuse to avoid the masses, when I think about it!

    I used to have a great street side widow view of the Thanksgiving Day Parade at one office here. #rd floor. Above the crowd, but not too high, unless you were partaking in my office party  ;)

    Parent

    umm, 3rd floor! lol!~ (none / 0) (#41)
    by nycstray on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:44:03 PM EST
    There will be many (none / 0) (#53)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:50:15 PM EST
    mentally distressed pets during this weekend. ;)

    Parent
    Yes, I have a reactive Rottweiler (none / 0) (#62)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:53:29 PM EST
    She goes nuts with fireworks!!!

    Parent
    My dog among them (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:56:22 PM EST
    He will be under my desk all weekend. Poor guy.

    Parent
    oh crap (none / 0) (#119)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:46:52 PM EST
    i just realized im gonna be hearing my housemates new chihuahua barking all night.

    Parent
    My dog is afraid too but I have a ooftop deck... (none / 0) (#129)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:59:02 PM EST
    ...from which I can view the fireworks on the Baltimore Harbor....so I can stay home and get fireworks too. My dog will probably be hiding under the bed.

    Parent
    I'm sleepy, I have a rooftop deck... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:00:05 PM EST
    ...not an ooftop deck. Although that sounds kind of fun.

    Parent
    I thought the same thing -- sounded like (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:06:41 PM EST
    a tastefully furnished, minimalist, Scandinavian rooftop.  Uff da!  

    Parent
    I could go on my ooftop ;) (none / 0) (#176)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:30:16 AM EST
    but I've found that if I interact with her she's better, so we have a party :) Bobbing for cheese, some dancing to the fireworks music etc. Or, if I'm just to tired to "play the game", she's cool with leaning into me while we watch the show on the TeeVee.

    I also have cats that get aggressive with the noise. I've been putting relaxing herbs in their water all week. But tomorrow I need to keep the dog out of the line of feline fire. One of the felines will just outright attack her. {sigh} My own personal "fireworks"!

    *

    Parent

    Ditto in Milwaukee. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:44:11 PM EST
    I'm close to the lakefront, site of our largest musical festival in the world midway through its 11-day run now -- plus even closer to me are  annual fireworks tonight that bring in another half million or more.  This town loves 'em, so some clans started camping out in their favorite sites days ago, clogging the park and sidewalks.  By this afternoon, the freeways were closed.  Then the lakefront drive, then surrounding streets, ever closer to me . . . so it's time to turn on the tv.

    Why?  Because the town loves fireworks so much that they will be broadcast on tv, so I will get stereo sound so close to the booms, too.  Of course, I personally think that fireworks lose something when reduced to a 15-inch tv screen.  But that must be just me.  Ratings always soar for this silliness.  :-)

    And then more tomorrow night, so everyone at the lakefront tonight can go to their neighborhood parks for more oohs and aahs closer to their homes.  So many that we have our spots on the hills where we can drive to see more than a dozen fireworks at once.

    Parent

    Wonder if we were in the same high rise (5.00 / 0) (#192)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:09:35 AM EST
    there in the same year?  I've been invited to a few of those, and the view of the lakefront is so amazing even before the fireworks -- the view of all the sailboats heading out to see the show from the water.

    One year, I was on one of those sailboats, and it is marvelous -- especially as that was one of the years when the Milwaukee Symphony set up at the lakefront to play the 1812 Overture with the fireworks, and the music carried so well over the water.

    Btw, you might not recognize Prospect Avenue now, with all the new high rises.  And, of course, you probably weren't here when you could see "the Calatrava," as we call it here -- the new entrance to the art museum with the amazing, working wings.

    Come on back for IrishFest, with the name of Shannon.  It's hopping here.  And you can dine at  that multicultural Milwaukee adaptation for IrishFest, "Mother Machree's Strudel House." :-)

    Parent

    Sounds nice, (none / 0) (#56)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:51:03 PM EST
    Cream!

    Parent
    Long winters make us max (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:05:58 PM EST
    on summers in Milwaukee.  Ethnic festivals every weekend.  Part French Canadian as I am, descended from Acadians, my fave is coming soon:  Bastille Days!  And then in August, for another of my heritages, IrishFest -- the largest Irish festival in the world.  It's a-super-mazing, for any of you Irishers who want to join us.  Come a week early for the hedge school classes, including with some of the best musicians from the Emerald Isle.    

    I shall be participating, as annually, in the great March of the Bodhrans.  Banging my drum not softly as we process to the final night's ceili-cum-jam session of all the musicians.  A-super-mazing.

    And don't ask about the food; I'm trying to diet.  I'm doomed.  Also coming are Wisconsin's famous State Fair cream puffs.  Ohhhhhh.

    Parent

    I am terrified some kids will start (none / 0) (#85)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:11:28 PM EST
    a fire because it is so dry here. They are illegal here but that never stops anyone. Can you see the ones from Turner Field at your place? Or have they cancelled them because the Braves are so bad lately? I still love them, though. : )


    Parent
    You're repeating untrue statements (none / 0) (#63)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:53:52 PM EST


    MyLeftMind, I don't (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by kmblue on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:59:07 PM EST
    believe in you.

    Fess up--you are like a little boy poking a beehive with a stick.

    Is it not so?

    Just here to see how much buzzing you can start?

    If that's not the case, I apologize.

    Parent

    Sorry, meant to reply to talex comment (none / 0) (#69)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 09:57:10 PM EST
     
    letting religious charities that receive federal funding consider religion in employment decisions," a move that could "invite a storm of protest from those who view such faith requirements as discrimination" -- something not even the Bush faith programs allowed.


    Parent
    Apparently, Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#77)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:02:36 PM EST
    a lot of us are still here.

    Me? I'm poor. I haven't taken a vacation since 2002 (working vacation), and the last one prior to that was in the '80s.

    What's your excuse? Having an actual life? [/snark]

    Hardly (none / 0) (#149)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:45:25 PM EST
    Life? Vacations? I was going to go up to Owl Farm but the thought of a 3.5 hour drive to Aspen in holiday traffic with everyone trying to get to the mountains made me decide to stay home.

    They are having their annual parade on Main St. in Aspen tomorrow and I hear there will be a group with signs "Hillary Supporters for Obama."

    Tonight I ordered in Thai food and am just fine. I'll be home and blogging on and off through the weekend.

    Parent

    Will NPR read the Declaration of Independence (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:10:04 PM EST
    tomorrow morning?  All of their reporters read a line or two of it, and it always makes me cry.  I'll have to listen for it.

    Hope so. And Capitol Steps (none / 0) (#136)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:09:21 PM EST
    and Sousa music, all the rituals.  

    A church nearby plays Sousa on its bells, so I'll be taking my morning coffee outside to the garden, as usual.  But I gotta tell ya, the bells kinda suck the verve out of Sousa.

    Parent

    Montana? (none / 0) (#89)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:14:33 PM EST
    An open thread is a good spot to post today's somewhat eye catching poll from Rasmussen

    Montana - Obama +5

    That's a 10 point swing from the last Rasmussen poll in Montana that was done last April when they had McCain up +5

    Obama would be history now (none / 0) (#111)
    by Saul on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 10:35:53 PM EST
    if it were not that McCain is such a weak candidate.  Had there been a stronger republican candidate, Obama would be a footnote today.

    I was reading Obama's justification (none / 0) (#163)
    by g8grl on Thu Jul 03, 2008 at 11:59:41 PM EST
    for FISA capitulation and his stand on mental duress not being sufficient for an exemption to an abortion ban it all sounds like good reasoning to me.  

    I THINK OBAMA IS GOING TO HAVE A BIG PROBLEM.  I think Obama is going to be so over exposed, the media will be so saturated by his soaring rhetoric that people will tune out.  It will be obvious to the lowest information voter that Obama can make horsesh** smell like perfume that they will tune him out.  I was reading his justifications and I felt he was making good, reasoned arguements BUT I also felt that it was obvious that he could make good, reasoned arguements for or against anything.  Thus I was left with no idea what he really meant or what he really believed.  So I began to tune out his arguement because it felt like he could argue for anything.  

    This will be Obama's downfall, he's too good for his own good.  That's what the media is going to go after and that's how he will fail to convince the voters.  People will be impressed by his ability but unconvinced by his candidacy.  

    Sigh..... (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:23:19 AM EST
    I also felt that it was obvious that he could make good, reasoned arguements for or against anything.  Thus I was left with no idea what he really meant or what he really believed.  So I began to tune out his arguement because it felt like he could argue for anything.  

    Welcome to the club!  

    I keep trying to find out, over and over again, what does this guy stand for?  What is really really REALLY important to him?  What are the things he will not compromise on?  

    ::crickets::

    Parent

    he stands (none / 0) (#177)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:31:38 AM EST
    for faith based initiatives, he's pretty clear on that i think.  At the least, he's clear that he wants to spend time on that issue and make tweaks to that program, rename it, change the regulations a bit, etc.

    And where a politician wants to spend time and actually thinks about the regulations, is where a politician stands.

    And when i think of where i want my political capital spent, man, I can't think of anything more impressive than carving out a niche in improving faith based initiatives.

    Parent

    Republicans will use the faith based initiatives (none / 0) (#179)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:38:33 AM EST
    to buy votes.  If our candidate does not use them, the votes go to McCain instead.

    Parent
    Let me try again, and I'll try not to put down (none / 0) (#182)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 12:40:05 AM EST
    PUMA.  

    I think we need to be clear about what we want from our candidate.  If the Dem electorate comes to some sort of consensus and specifically communicates that, we can either demand it from Obama or try to nominate Hillary instead.  Getting mad and not voting is not effective in electing a Dem president.  

    PUMA is not an effective strategy to get a Dem elected as Prez.  The primary was 50/50, the party had to happen to pick a nominee.  The rules committee made decisions that some Dems don't agree with, and if they had made them the other way, plenty of Dems would be angry at that instead.  If the party insiders had chosen Hillary, we would have lost the AA vote (car wash day), the youth vote (no one pounding the streets this fall) and we would have a lot of centrists going for McCain because they 1) Hate the Clintons, 2) Don't think a woman can protect us from terrorists, or 3) Relate to him the same way guys on this site seem to relate to him.  

    As a left wing Dem, I need to decide if the FISA/mental distress/expand faith based initiatives is pandering or is some stealth position on Obama's part.  I think it's pandering.  I think he's made a bid to undermine the lock the GOP has on centrist voters and even Republicans.  His straddling the fence on everything is maddening, but if it works he'll win the presidency.

    The evangelical voters, especially the youth, might be convinced that Obama understands their concerns about liberals "pushing" abortions and women being able to just change their mind and get late term abortions.  Their leadership will either support Obama, or just not support McCain so rabidly if they're convinced Obama's new Faith money will come their way.

    If centrist voters trust him because he supports FISA, they may not vote for McCain if they think Obama will cost them less money in Iraq.  I'd like to live in a world where a Democrat can fight FISA and win the presidency, but that's not the case today.  I think if the Dems vote against it, our very powerful government will find a way to have a terrorist attack on our soil.  Americans will die.  And the Democrats will lose this fall because they fought FISA.  

    It's very frustrating coming here to see what everyone has to say about something and having to wade through all the Obama bashing.  If you hate him and want to vote for someone else, why not just go do that?  And if you think he's a stealth Republican, then go to a PUMA site and work to get Hillary nominated instead.

    But if you think he's pandering, and if you can stand to see the constitution slashed (and it will be anyhow, whether or not the Dems vote it down this summer), then let's get on with the business of taking back our government.

    The Dems did not "happen" (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:21:00 AM EST
    to pick this nominee.  You're new, you think we're low-info voters here who don't know exactly how it "happened."

    And your entire essay is based on the opening premise that the main purpose is to elect a Dem, any Dem.  You need to spend time on the PUMA site and others.  Many people there are taking a longer-term strategy to improve the party so that it will not again settle for any Dem, but will get back to nominating a real Dem -- one who supports the principles and platform of the party (as well as leadership that will abide by the party's own rules and bylaws -- and especially its charter).

    So when your basis is a flawed premise, what follows will not be persuasive to those you address.  Again, best go research the range of reasons at the PUMA site and others.  (Disclaimer: I'm not a PUMA, but I have looked at its and similar groups' sites.)

    Parent

    Just stop talking about PUMA (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 01:24:26 AM EST
    Just stop.

    Jeralyn has said (quite reasonably) that she will not allow organizing on TL for organizations which advocate not voting for Obama.

    That puts some people in a bad position when people criticize PUMA, because responding as some people would wish to risks violating the site rules.

    I think you can make your points without mentioning it at all.  

    If you feel that most of the site is Obama-bashing, then just skip past those posts.  That is what I do when it seems like part of a thread is getting off track or silly (meaning just in my opinion).  Ok, mostly.  Well, sometimes.

    What was I saying?  Oh yeah ... Reply or address yourself to the posts that are not, in your opinion, bashing.

    Finally, if you want to 'get on with the business  of taking back our government' it's probably better to put out ways you think people could do that than lecturing them on how badly they misunderstand the current political situation.  

    Parent