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A Netroots Crossroads?

The Washington Post has a postmortem of the Netroots Nation Convention:

. . . Obama . . . is Topic A among the Netroots, his fate somewhat married to theirs. . . . But these are changing times, and Obama, in his calls for getting past blue vs. red America, and in his recent positions on issues such as telecom immunity, is somewhat of an enigma. With the Dems taking back Congress in 2006 and the prospect of an Obama victory come November, many in the influential Netroots are left in a precarious, ambiguous position. The question is, who needs whom: Does Obama need the Netroots, or vice versa?

Obama does not need them of course but neither does the Netroots need Obama. What the Netroots needs is some idea of what they are about. Right now, let's face it, they are about nothing but being a mirror image of the Right blogs. Obama - right or wrong. More . . .

I have been critiquing Obama for many years now because the political rhetoric and style he has practiced is, in my view, not a force for real substantive change. I have long been (at one time my view was pretty universally held in the Netroots) an advocate of a politics of contrast and definition and for negative branding of the Republican Party. Obama's Post Partisan Unity Schtick utterly rejects these approaches. From the WaPo article:

Two years ago, frustrated by bloggers' reaction to two Democratic senators who voted to confirm John Roberts as chief justice, Obama wrote a posting on Daily Kos:

"According to the storyline that drives many advocacy groups and Democratic activists -- a storyline often reflected in comments on this blog -- we are up against a sharply partisan, radically conservative, take-no-prisoners Republican party," wrote Obama, who voted no on the Roberts confirmation.

And demonstrating that the unwillingness to fight was not merely stylistic, but substantive as well for Obama, he did a 180 on FISA Capitulation. But the fact that Obama is practicing a brand of politics that the Netroots once vehemently disagreed with, including the adoption of blatant Hoyerism on FISA, is no longer of importance to the Netroots. From the Wapo article:

"Think about it: Netroots was born at a time when the Democrats were in opposition, and it's learning how to be a force of good when the Democrats are in power -- and could have more power next year," says Simon Rosenberg of the New Democrat Network. A speaker at the confab, Rosenberg is a bridge of sorts between Official Washington (he worked in the first Clinton White House) and New Washington (he wrote the foreword to "Crashing the Gate: Netroots, Grassroots, and the Rise of People-Powered Politics," which Kos co-authored).

Adds Andrew Rasiej, also a speaker at the convention and founder of Personal Democracy Forum, an online think tank that analyzes how the Internet affects politics: "For most everyone in the Netroots, the main goal right now is get Obama elected. Period. Now how the Netroots and Obama move forward after November, if he is elected, is another issue."

Ahh, AFTER the election. Sure, because there are no more elections after this one. This is ridiculous. It does not wash. Personally, I do not see how the Netroots regains its previous focus. No doubt that many bloggers will transition into the Media and do quite well for themselves. They may even win a substantive argument or two. But the idea of Fighting Dems, of politics of contrast, of negative branding - that is over. And not a shot was fired by the Netroots in the battle.

I do not think it is possible to go back to arguing for a contrast approach after you have unquestioningly cheered on the candidate who stood for the exact opposite of it. The Netroots has been coopted. It is now an effective cheering section for the Democratic Party. But little else. Sure there will be small victories - a Donna Edwards here, A Ned Lamont there, but the idea of what the Netroots once was no longer exists. Obama has swept it away.

Speaking for me only

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    supposedly Robert Johnson sold his sole (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:32:32 AM EST
    to the devil at a crossroads.  I think maybe the netroots have as well.

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:38:40 AM EST
    The other day you were quoting Archie Bell, now it's Robert Johnson. I think I love your taste in music.

    Anyway, I think the netroots capitulated out of fear of republicans, just as democrats do regularly.

    [ Parent ]

    fascinating character Robert Johnson (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:59:46 AM EST
    hard to separate fact from fiction.  not unlike Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    The Netroots aren't cool enough ... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:26:16 AM EST
    to find their way to the crossroads.

    [ Parent ]
    remember that SNL sketch where the devil ... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:40:31 AM EST
    ...Will Ferrell hands out lame ass songs?  

    [ Parent ]
    Sympathy fo the devil there. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
    what use is the soul of the mediocre and untalented?

    what does the devil get in return for such shopddy merchandise?

    [ Parent ]

    touche (none / 0) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:57:18 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Was it Obama's doing, really? (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:34:43 AM EST
    I think it was because a number of the big bloggers really wanted to go establishment and Broderize themselves.

    I tend to agree with something like this. (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Faust on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:47:35 AM EST
    It seems to me (and I'm not blogosphere expert) that there is very much a continuum in the blogosphere. Huff po for example is very mainstream, and sort of "shadows" the main stream dominant discourses, but does nothing to destabilize them. It would probably fair to say that it's a MSM blog.

    Then there are blogs like Daily Howler which didn't change at all during the primary season, and has been very consistent throughout. BTD has been pretty consistent in my view. I could list others, but my point is that someone who was an expert on say the top X number of blogs could construct some sort of continuum in terms of how much a given blog supports dominant narratives vs. how much they challenge them.

    Part of my difficulty in verifying this argument is that I really have no sense of what the "netroots" are. Is it ALL left blogs? Or is there some actual semi official consortium?


    [ Parent ]

    The prime purpose IMO of many of the (5.00 / 12) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:49:23 AM EST
    blogs became the appearance of backing "WINNERS" regardless of what positions on the issues the candidates espoused. They would never have been viewed as a "force" had they backed Clinton, so Obama became the be all and end all for them.

    They wanted to be viewed as "players." The fact that they are dupes rather than "players" since they have absolutely no influence on the candidate's actions,  may not ever register with them.  

    [ Parent ]

    I agree. (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:56:00 AM EST
    The netroots are to be used and discarded, just like every other "special interest group" trying to influence the Obama/DNC Conglomerate.

    Even Max Cleland was kicked to the curb by Obama.

    The writing is on the wall in 100-foot letters.

    [ Parent ]

    What happened? (none / 0) (#83)
    by pie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:01:17 PM EST
    Even Max Cleland was kicked to the curb by Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Cleland was invited (5.00 / 5) (#85)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:05:27 PM EST
    to speak with Obama, but was dis-invited at the last minute. Apparently he is a 'lobbyist' - for tissue regeneration technologies.

    Absolutely disgusting.

    [ Parent ]

    You are fricken kidding me??? (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:07:18 PM EST
    Gee, I wonder why Max would go into that line of work.  Does Obamanation respect no one?

    [ Parent ]
    The sad thing is... (4.83 / 6) (#100)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:16:08 PM EST
    that's not even the real reason. We all know Obama accepts bundled money from lobbyists.

    I think he was afraid Cleland would get more applause than he did. Or maybe Cleland was just too "old-school."

    Whatever the reason was, it was unacceptable behavior in my book.

    [ Parent ]

    This is frickin' hysterical (5.00 / 8) (#111)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    when you consider the fact that at the Denver convention people are going to be carrying around AT&T totes and have the hopes of winning the i phone(which is soooooooo much better than a 4th amendment after all).

    Rolling my eyes at the stupidity. Since when has it become innappropriate to be seen with someonbe because they support an industry in sync with stem cell research(a supposedly democratic position)?

    [ Parent ]

    Gosh, this is sooooooooo scary!! (none / 0) (#174)
    by ghost2 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:10:42 PM EST
    when you consider the fact that at the Denver convention people are going to be carrying around AT&T totes and have the hopes of winning the i phone(which is soooooooo much better than a 4th amendment after all).

    True and scary.  

    [ Parent ]

    Not really up on the technology, but (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:03:42 PM EST
    isn't it related somehow to stem cell research? If so, the reason for the dis-invite might have to do with not wanting to tick off the people that he has deemed important (i.e. the fundies).

    [ Parent ]
    I think it was his doing (5.00 / 10) (#88)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:06:49 PM EST
    Well, Axelrod's, anyway. I'm not sure if Obama knew exactly what was going on. I believe that the people on the netroots were manipulated by a whisper campaign employing people to spread Obama campaign talking points and to "work the ref" against people who were critical of Obama. For a while, every time anybody on a major blog wrote something critical of Obama the comments section would flood with criticism. Nobody can stand up to that for very long. There are people talking about trying to get Joan Walsh replaced at Salon just because she is not an out and out Obama fan, even though she has published a number of articles that favor Obama and publicly endorsed him (once Clinton conceded). It became a grassroots movement, but Axelrod provided the seeds and lots and lots of fertilizer.

    [ Parent ]
    for there to be contrast (5.00 / 13) (#5)
    by kempis on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:42:31 AM EST
    there must be clearly defined principles. Apparently, the predominant principle now is to win.

    After winning, then Obama will lead as a progressive--so goes the narrative. But that narrative ignores reality: if elected, Obama will be campaigning on Day One for his re-election run in '12. Thus, what we see now is what we'll get: a pragmatic centrist, much like Hillary, but without Hillary's experience on the national political stage. This is why we'll get a heavily scripted, advisor-controlled presidency. Moments when he deviates from the script, we'll see the sorts of first-term errors that the Clintons made.

    But he is not going to govern as a progressive. It's going to be interesting to see how some in the netroots deal with that reality. I suppose some will remain apologists.

    Someone really ought to ask these people to define "progressive." What are non-negotiable, progressive principles? Does "progressive" mean anything, really, other than too-cool-to-be-Republican? Or, as we saw in the primaries, simply "cool" as in Obama was cool and Hillary was not. Is it just a word to assert tribal affiliation, like Steeler or "Crip"? Is it just an "us" to hurl against a "them"?

    I'd be curious to know what some of these influential progressive bloggers think progressives believe in.

    Just based on behavior during the primaries... (5.00 / 12) (#18)
    by lambert on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:00:33 AM EST
    ... I'd say "progressive" means "misogynist." Of course, I'm not saying that's a bad thing -- it certainly polls well, after all.

    [ Parent ]
    I would phrase it as (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:40:41 AM EST
    accepting of sexism and misogyny.

    [ Parent ]
    As far as I've seen, there are not any (5.00 / 14) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:18:01 AM EST
    non-negotiable, progressive principles that the A-list bloggers couldn't abandon in their support of Obama.

    As far as Obama being "a pragmatic centrist, much like Hillary," IMO Obama has shown that he is much less willing to take any position that he views has the slightest political risk. Hillary was and is willing to take some risks that Obama has avoided like the plague.

    IMO Obama will govern farther to the right of center than Hillary on many issues. He is running right of center during the GE and that is the mandate he will have if he is elected in November.

    [ Parent ]

    point taken (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by kempis on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:27:52 AM EST
    For instance, Hillary's health care plan was certainly bolder and a bit further to the left of Obama's--and was actually a universal health care plan, which was once-upon-a-time a progressive goal.

    [ Parent ]
    it was a Nixon goal (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:32:46 AM EST
    and that shows how far we in our party have slipped.

    [ Parent ]
    Good meme. (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:27:56 AM EST
    What a candidate runs on is what their mandate is.  So if Obama wins on centrism and rightward pandering, then his mandate is for more of the same.

    Some Obama supporters think that he'll somehow morph into a Progressive Powerhouse once he sits in the Oval Office.  I don't see it.

    [ Parent ]

    i agree with you (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:31:50 AM EST
    I don't see how Obama can govern in a progressive way with the positions he has staked out now.  When you begin negotiations with the right from a position in the center, I don't see how you can possibly end up to the left of center.  it doesn't work that way.

    [ Parent ]
    I got the feeling at my caucus (5.00 / 12) (#74)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:53:41 AM EST
    that being for Obama was a badge of honor take for themselves by those who have done nothing for civil rights, women's rights their entire lives.  At my caucus, which I led as the precinct leader, the men and women over 55, a few of whom had CONSISTENTLY attended caucuses since I started attending way back when they started....were for Hillary.  Four years ago, at age 58, I was the YOUNGEST caucus attendee and thus took the reins from the 84 year old who had been precinct chair.

    Now I know he, and the other few elderly folks who attended for years had always worked in this republican county for liberal issues: the rights of unions; education, health care, civil rights.  We were the ones who walked the streets, knocking on doors trying to get one of the few democrats elected to state office.  Suddenly our caucus grew from four people to over 50 people.  Yes there were a few very young ones but mostly it was a bunch of thirty and forty somethings.  Many worked at the college, and most were well heeled.  Our Hillary supporters (mostly older women were outnumbered and quite frankly look upon, I felt, with disdain).

    This is how I see the netroots: most male, mostly well educated, often well off and all about their egos.  I would bet a ton of money many of my caucus attendees, like many of the netroots at some blogs, were Reagan democrats or at the very least inattentive, do nothing dems who suddenly see voting like American Idol.

    I feel cheated and dishonored because there is still here like on certain blogs, in this overwhelmingly for Obama state, a sense of superiority eminating from these neo progresives.  Whether or not Obama moved to center is a moot point to them, just as during the primary whether or not Hillary and Obama were nearly identical on issues was a moot point.  All they would say was, with noses in the air, "Iraq or FISA (as if we didn't get it)."  For these people, health care, education, housing, gas prices, are not important.  WHY?  Because they don't have to decide day to day what is more important on which to spend money: food or gas, food or health care, food or a new roof.   NOW apparently FISA is no big deal either.

    I think I went off on a tangent.  Sorry.  It is all so surreal to me.  Obama is the American Idol.  And nothing he does or says will bother netroots because they have always been about trashing anyone who dared rain on their hero worship parade.

    [ Parent ]

    The bleating over (5.00 / 9) (#115)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:37:15 PM EST
    how come Hillary supporters can't pay off Hillarys debt would support that. I actually had to tell one of the knuckleheads that perhaps SOME of her 18 million supporters might be struggling with gas and food price hikes yesterday. I sincerely think it didn't cross their minds that many of Hillary's supporters were working class interested in getting Hillary in office because of the pain they are experiencing economically. Sigh.

    [ Parent ]
    We'll get Hillary's debt paid off. (5.00 / 5) (#116)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:40:47 PM EST
    $20.08 at a time.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you've hit on it (5.00 / 7) (#118)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:46:00 PM EST
    Among neo-progressives/netroots/whatever, there is an underlying lack of concern or compassion for any issue that's not directly relevant to their lives, and in some cases (unfortunately maybe in mostly 'leadership' cases) disdain for anything that does not directly advance them in power or money or some other material way.

    There's all this celebrating about how Obama's bringing all these new people into the political process, etc etc.  I would debate that, but even if I grant it, I'm not really sure we're better off with greater political participation if it's dominated by this humanity-less framework.

    [ Parent ]

    My take exactly. It is as Hillary (none / 0) (#139)
    by hairspray on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:49:53 PM EST
    said in NH...about who is up and who is down, who is winning and who is losing.  It is the sport metaphor and your caucus goons represent that.

    [ Parent ]
    "Pragmatic centrist (none / 0) (#16)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:58:53 AM EST
    much like Hillary"-- um, that's the old Hillary, or the old perception of Hillary (which I think was always off).  Not at all the Hillary she morphed into through the course of the primaries.

    [ Parent ]
    Crashing the Gates was on how to win (none / 0) (#121)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:56:12 PM EST
    at least that's what a few reviewers said. Not about principles, but about winning. The daily orange is too.

    [ Parent ]
    speaking of... (5.00 / 7) (#129)
    by kempis on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:13:16 PM EST
    I just found this blog from May in which a blogger at DK explains that Hillary lost because she was not progressive and Obama was.

    Gotta wonder how that person feels now....

    But back to the general point: the inconsistencies are pretty staggering. Hillary is a centrist who gets tagged with "DLC triangulator!" Obama is a centrist who is somehow a "progressive post-partisan."

    The same thought processes that allowed conservatives to embrace the very different neo-conservatism, unaware that they were undergoing an ideological shift as they pledged allegiance to G.W. Bush, seems to be operating here....

    [ Parent ]

    Some liberals like softer-spoken personalities (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:49:05 PM EST
    or perceive Eggheads as more progressive than the visceral, bold progressive politicians like Hillary Clinton or LBJ.

    [ Parent ]
    Once again. . . (5.00 / 13) (#6)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:43:38 AM EST
    Obama hasn't swept anything away.  The so-called netroots did that to themselves with their credulous self-delusion about the nature of Obama and his campaign.

    Those of us who never deluded ourselves about Obama aren't terribly disappointed.

    And I think you're far too generous when describing what the netroots was about before they hitched their wagon to Obama.  Some people who know have told me that politicians had really come to respect the netroots as a fundraising phenomenon.  But as an influence on policy?  I sure as heck wouldn't base my decisions on what someone said in the blogosphere.

    Individual web commentators sometimes impress me with their opinions, depth of knowledge, and their rhetorical skills.  The law-related material here at Talk Left, for instance, notwithstanding that it comes with an explicitly stated bias.  BTD sometimes impresses me that way.  Steve M almost always impresses me that way.

    But the blogosphere as a whole, considering both name bloggers and the comments sections of the blogs have never impressed me, and I doubt they impress anyone with any actual say.  The blogosphere has never been anything other than an echo chamber.

    Markos's rants are (sometimes) fun to read.  He's done a great job recognizing an appetite in the market (the appetite for outrage) and building a successful business around it.  But substantive?  Effectual?  Important?  Not.  Not now, not before.

    More or less, yeah. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:48:39 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The question is this (5.00 / 7) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:34:44 AM EST
    You say they admire the fundraising prowess - and the Netroots has chosen to give it to them for free.

    Here is my solution - if you do not listen to me on policy - then I will not help you fundraise.

    Personally, I thought Markos' statement, in essence an implied call to not donate to Obama - was the smartest thing he could have done. He backed off of it for reasons unknown.

    The focus on candidates like Childers and others like him is simply ludicrous - if you care about issues that is.

    Personally, I would urge a much stricter policy on who you fundraise for. That the Netroots embraced what you describe and like it is precisely the problem.

    As for who to listen to, well, I do not listen much to you either on policy so that is not a problem. But I bet if you raised a lot of money for candidate, that candidate would listen to you.

    [ Parent ]

    I thought the negative reaction of some (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
    to Markos's decision to withhold funds from Obama was comedy gold.

    [ Parent ]
    Very interesting questions. . . (5.00 / 5) (#82)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:59:34 AM EST
    First off, I should reiterate only that I've been told that politicians respect the netroots as a fundraising mechanism.  That comes from someone who I think ought to know, but also someone who works primarily at the state level.  For what it's worth.

    I do agree that withholding funds is one very good way to send a message.  When you say

    But I bet if you raised a lot of money for candidate, that candidate would listen to you.

    but the catch is that I don't think they see small contribution netroots money the same way.  They'll listen to a $200K bundler a lot.  They'll listen to one of his or her $2,300 givers to some extent.  A $25 unbundled internet giver?  Get in line, pal, there's five million waiting.

    For the power of the money to be exercised people like Markos need to become, in effect, bundlers of small contributions.  The problem with that is that an operation the size of Obama's is going to escape the influence even of an operation the size of Markos'.  Do you think the Obama campaign is going to allow their policy to be dictated by Markos for, say, five hundred thousand dollars?

    I didn't know that Markos has backed off from his "no dough for O" position, but if he has I see two reasons.  First off, Markos has a lot invested in Obama pulling in huge hauls -- it forms the basis of his anti-public financing stance.  Secondly, although I doubt the Obama campaign cares too much about his carping on policy (in fact, an angry left complaining about Obama probably serves their interests) they might care enough about the moolah to have put some pressure on.

    So, the only influence I see from the netroots is if they function as a pretty bare-knuckled, low contribution, high volume PAC.  Is that where we really want to be?

    The other problem with that approach is that while I have my differences with Obama (and Clinton, and Feingold, etc) I have more differences with Kos and I won't put my money through any channel that could possibly be seen to increase his influence.  In fact, there isn't really anyone in the blogosphere whose influence I'd like to pay to have increased.

    [ Parent ]

    I might, just might, have paid (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:05:52 PM EST
    to see BTD's influence increase if he had supported Clinton. Not shilled for her.  Just analyzed her campaign and positions with the same care he did Obama's.  

    [ Parent ]
    You know, after two minutes. . . (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:06:00 PM EST
    of additional thought I'm wondering if one couldn't develop, using internet technology, a kind of short term, single-issue PAC system that would have the kind of influence I think you want.

    For instance, if, six or twelve months ago a Netroots FISA PAC had been developed that would collect money and then contribute it for 2008 races only to people whose FISA vote had met certain constraints, I wonder if enough money would have been collected to make people sit up and take notice.

    You could repeat this with short duration, single issue PACs for a variety of issues.

    [ Parent ]

    Could it be that such a single issue pac (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    already exists for this election?  ;^)

    [ Parent ]
    Isn't this happening already? (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by santarita on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:27:40 PM EST
    Maybe not very effectively but FireDogLake had a call for action going on FISA and also a donation site.  

    I think that your analysis of the blog as low-level contributiion bundler was very interesting and is probably how national level campaigns look at them.  Hence, the attendance at the Netroots Nation of VIPs like Nancy Pelosi.

    Since I am sickened by the $$$ afloat in the campaigns, it will be a long time before I contribute to any politician.  

    [ Parent ]

    Either Dodd or Feingold did this. (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:17:12 PM EST
    Was it on not funding Iraq war w/o deadlines?  

    [ Parent ]
    It goes beyond money (5.00 / 6) (#124)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:03:45 PM EST
    I think you may be making a mistake similar to what a lot of the netroots do.

    You may not have been fooled by Obama, and lots of people on TL have made a similar point about themselves.  It may quite reasonably be a point of pride, but it's irrelevant to the larger issue.  

    It's all well and good to say you're not influenced by that, but clearly many people are.  Most are.  Public opinion is shaped by what people see every day from whatever their news source -- MSM, blogs, papers, etc.  Outright lies became 'truth' this year because of massive repetition.  (yes, I know, not just this year but I would argue more this year).  Kos et al have served an important propaganda function for Obama, as well as a mutually-reinforcing propaganda function for him with the media.

    To me it doesn't matter whether it was more Obama fooling the people or the people fooling themselves with Obama.  In the end we end up with the same amount of foolishness, only it's the Presidency we're talking about.

    [ Parent ]

    Seconded ... I am not at all disappointed because (none / 0) (#178)
    by bridget on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 12:30:33 AM EST
    it was always clear to me what the netroots were all about. From the v. first moment on.

    Yes, it is really high time for a blogosphere REALITY CHECK but is unlikely that that will happen since the blogosphere is too impressed and in love with itself. Ergo

    Obama swept nothing away.

     "The blogosphere has never been anything other than an echo chamber."

    Indeed.

    And Criticism of the above was strictly verboten by the blogmasters and their minions ... loyalty ueber alles existed among the "name" bloggers who hoped/hope to gain power by sticking together. And that is that.

    Long before Obama came on to the scene and kicked Edwards from the top of the net polls. Net polls were such a riot. Edwards 12000 votes, Hillary 45 votes or less. Well, sort of. And the press (Russert loved this sort of stuff) would even publish this nonsense. No wonder the netroots felt they had the power and blogging would change the world ... their way.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know BTD, (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by joc on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:46:19 AM EST
    These blogs played a part in nominating Obama! There will be no more questions about the power of the netroots to win it for their candidates, no more questions about their ability to marshall an effective mob, and no more questions about the meaning of it all. They won. And you speak of the principles of the early netroots as if principles are supposed to mean something.

    the question going forward (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:25:45 AM EST
    should be whether the netroots are capable of honestly vetting a candidate before they decide to back one.  It appears that they may have endorsed too quickly this time.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure that this election (5.00 / 6) (#67)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:46:05 AM EST
    is a predictor of whether the netroots is capable of vetting candidates or not. If we had had five middle-aged white guys to choose from, would the decision of who to support have happened so quickly? This time there was that "historic" quality attached, and I think a lot of people wanted to be sure that they were on board when that history was made. Kind of like standing in line to get the new iphone the first day it's out. There are some of us who want to see how well it works first, but others who need to be on the cutting edge.

    [ Parent ]
    yeah, i've never understood (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:51:39 AM EST
    standing in line overnight to get the first new gadget either.  guess i'm just too old.  my phone still works and if i want an iPhone I think they will still be selling them next month without the crowds.  But, I grew up at a time if you were outside of the kitchen in your house, you were unavailable by phone.  And, I'm not really sure that it wasn't better then.  Does anyone really need to be accessible 24/7 just so their friends can text "wassup" to them?

    [ Parent ]
    The only cell phone I own (5.00 / 3) (#98)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:14:41 PM EST
    is turned off in the glove compartment of my car just in case my car breaks down late at night. I am self-employed, and I have no trouble keeping in touch with my clients. When I get in the car, I can put the top down, blast the radio, and experience some old-fashioned escape.

    [ Parent ]
    can anyone honestly (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:31:50 PM EST
    say in all the cell phone conversations you have been "forced" to overhear, that any of them sounded important?  If you have to call home from the grocery store to get purchasing instructions, you were too stupid to go to the store in the first place.

    [ Parent ]
    Ironically, the one time an a-hole told me.... (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:58:02 PM EST
    ...to shut up on my cell phone because I was disturbing his sleep on a commuter train, I was actually trying to talk my daughter through a panic attack brought on by asthma symptoms on the side of the road when she was 100 miles away coming home for Christmas break. He had the nerve to tell me that my family problems were not interesting to him! He got an earful from me and from other passengers after I managed to calm my daughter down.

    [ Parent ]
    For safety's sake (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by sj on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:06:16 PM EST
    Just make sure that phone is fully charged.  It's easy to fall into a "drop it into glove box and forget it" mode.  

    Ask my sister.  Luckily her issue was just a flat tire, but the reality was completely out of sync with her perception of how she "related" to her cell phone.

    [ Parent ]

    I've got a "classy" car (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:27:04 PM EST
    My phone is constantly plugged into the charger in the glovebox. And if I run into mostly guys in the grocery store who are on the phone while they walk around the grocery store, I give them one of my grocery list sheets so that they can make a list.  I'm very polite and I look like the grandma that I am so I get away with it.  And the guy on the train was beyond rude. The cell phone in my car is mostly a concession to my kids.  I can change my own tire. Not being tied to a cell phone is one of those little gifts that us "Twanda" types can give ourselves if we choose to. My best friend waited in line for the new iPhone.  Each to her own, I say.

    [ Parent ]
    Way to go, grandma... (none / 0) (#164)
    by oldpro on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:38:03 PM EST
    I wouldn't have a cell phone either but my son bought me one and pays the bill so that HE can sleep at night, while his 70-something mother is often out late and alone...and sometimes miles from home!

    [ Parent ]
    Someone was talking (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:34:51 AM EST
    about the youth voters who turned out in the primaries for Obama.  My comment was "They served their purpose.".  So it is with the netroots.  As long as they act as cheerleaders and ATMs for the politicians, that's how they will be treated.  Wooed when the pols need the love and money and ignored the rest of the time.

    I'm not seeing any effort to retain the initial support and enthusiasm of new/youth voters by Obama.  Frankly, I don't expect to.  

    [ Parent ]

    The problem IMO is how they are wooed (5.00 / 8) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:53:55 AM EST
    The Dems woo the blogs with words and a few stokes to their egos and not with actions. A few prominent Dems post on the so called progressive blogs and the community swoons with their self importance.

    Oh gosh Senator X, I'm so thrilled that you would come and talk to us humble people. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, a$$hole, don't bring up how ineffectual the Dems are to Senator X. He is one of the good guys. Have a donut.

    Of course, Senator X normally posts only when the Dems have caved on some issue and he/she wants to explain that he/she will continue to fight the good fight. They reap benefits as follows: calms the masses, generates funds for themselves or their PACS and expands their contribution lists.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not convinced the blogs had (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:18:29 PM EST
    much to do w/Obama being the presumptive Dem. nominee.  Looked to me like a top-down effort, plus the savvy of Obama's campaign re caucuses.

    [ Parent ]
    Savvy? (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by madamab on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:30:10 PM EST
    Is that what we're calling Republicans becoming "Democrats for a Day" now? Did you know that Obama's people handed out two registration forms at once in some of those caucuses - one to register as a Democrat, and one to register BACK as a Republican?

    I know someone who works in the Kansas Democratic Caucus. She said that 2000 Republicans showed up to vote for Obama. Almost all had to be registered that  day. In a normal election year, they get about 100 new voters.

    Somehow I don't think "savvy" exactly covers it. "Corruption" fits a bit better for me. ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    To me, if it's legal, its savvy. (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:17:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Okay savvy. How about ethical? (none / 0) (#140)
    by hairspray on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:58:58 PM EST
    It is the reason many in my family will not vote at the top of the ticket in November.

    [ Parent ]
    You are right (none / 0) (#154)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:38:26 PM EST
    in that it is legal.  But it's the sanctimony and hypocrisy of the Obama campaign/worshippers that kill me.  Using republican hate to get your way?  And yet Hillary was accused of scorched earth?  

    [ Parent ]
    The crux of the matter is, though, (none / 0) (#159)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:20:16 PM EST
    shouldn't we all conclude Sen. McCain is the lesser choice as between Obama and McCain?

    [ Parent ]
    Changing the topic (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 07:13:29 PM EST
    does not work here.  It's what the right does well...the left doing just comes off looking like the right.

    And here's the end game. I am voting for the democratic nominee whomever it is.  I always intended to do, and have said so on every blog on which I post.  However that does not mean I don't see and call hypocrisy and sanctimony when I see it, even if it is in my own party.

    [ Parent ]

    the ONLY reason (none / 0) (#171)
    by jen on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 08:36:07 PM EST
    the netroots won is because they were on the same side as corporate press. And that's what baffled me the most about this entire primary. At least BTD admitted, repeatedly that it was because of the media he thought Obama would have a better chance. The mobs at the progressive blogs going along with the media never questioned why the media would be so adamant to have Obama be the nominee. Their mutual CDS played a huge role.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama as pop culture. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:46:59 AM EST
    It's possible that his celeb status will simply anihillate the GOP  (still going to be close race though)

    I've been pessimistic about his chances but what the hell I'm used to the GOP having the Presidency anyway.

    Fear based Authoritarianism (5.00 / 22) (#10)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:48:35 AM EST
    The term "right wing authoritarian" is presumed by many to mean that only right wingers can be authoritarian, but it doesn't. "Right wing" in the context of sociology does not refer to politics, but to a way of thinking. Progressives can be just as authoritarian as anybody else. Fear triggers this, and I believe that the overwhelming fear of and anger toward Bush has coalesced the liberal netroots into an authoritarian force that is the liberal equivalent of the right wing.

    It didn't start with Obama - It has been happening for a long time. 4 years ago I had interesting discussions with people on Daily Kos, about abortion, gay marriage, politics, and more. You could have the kind of intense discussions that I used to have in college with friends, and leave friends, or at least allies. Now... if you try to take any position that is not supported by the general group you risk being, at best, called out as a troll and, at worst, physically excluded by being banned.

    There are numerous studies into how power effects people and how peer pressure effects thinking. It seems clear that any system that puts a group of like-minded individuals together, puts some kind of stressor on them, and gives them power to censor others will end up becoming more and more intolerant of outside views and rejecting anybody who does not toe the party line. This happens even if the parties involved purportedly value diversity of values and views.

    In short (I know, too late): The left wing has become dominated by authoritarian personalities who do not tolearte dissent. A few contrarian thinkers have mangaged to remain in their ranks, by not violating "community standards" too heavily, but most who do not agree have either been ejected or left voluntarily, making the community even more insular.

    One Of The Best Papers I Ever Read (5.00 / 14) (#15)
    by flashman on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:57:09 AM EST
    was writtin by progressive Amy Goodman, and it detailed how the progressive movement of the 1960's was killed off by the very mentality you are writing about.  It would be sad to see history repeat itslef while progressives have this historic opportunity to advance their cause.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure we have a choice (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by dianem on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:26:00 AM EST
    Human beings are gearted toward thinking in certain ways. We can't help it - evolution demands it. We go along with the majority because we don't want to be rejected and end up having to hunt/forage for ourselves in the dead of winter. Only a few people can move beyond this, using either innate or learned critical thinking skills, and they tend to be marginalized as radicals during their lifetime. Almost every great thinker was hated by many during their lifetime. The most popular people tend to be those who compromise at least some of their principles in the name of expediency.

    My favore article on authortarianism is this book, available free, on-line, by the Canadian scientist who established the modern concept of authoritarianism. It's quite long, and, although he tries not to be too technical, it does descend into jargon occasionally. But it's a terrific foundation for the political analyses of authoritarianism you find on the web.

    [ Parent ]

    I think we don't have a choice (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:19:06 PM EST
    about the tendency of humans to coalesce in an authoritarian way, but there are always some societies and some groups worse than others.

    TL is not at all like most other blogs, and TL is hardly a haven of lockstep agreement.

    The main difference I see is the rules here (spoken and unspoken/cultural) are primarily concerned with the mode of communication, not the substance.  And that is the key thing, I think.

    Is the authoritarianism within a group based on the exclusion of substance or ideology, or are they based on modes or procedure?

    I don't disagree with what you are saying about human tendencies, just that there are different ways of channeling those tendencies which produce different results.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah...it's ego in (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:20:12 PM EST
    one form or another. I look at it as "gang mentality".

    I was under the impression that Democrats are not followers, that authority was anathema. It may cause us to lose more frequently than we would like but we appeared to refuse to follow some one just to, well, follow. I never thought I would see a time when, like the Republicans, we have been pushed to be devotees of one.

    [ Parent ]

    I think that authoritarian mentality was there (5.00 / 9) (#90)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:07:31 PM EST
    years ago in the 60s. It was manifested openly on a gender basis.  The guys decided who to protest, where to protest, how to protest, when to protest.  The women listened, got the food, the coffee, kept them in clean clothes and then joined them also on the protest marches.  
    I don't know then if many of us consciously recognized that it was the same authoritarian model we had at home in our so called liberal boyfriends right away but we did eventually get it.  Now it seems that we are back to square one.  The authoritarian model (with the gender issue less obvious but still there) is as much a part of the left as it was back then.  The illusion of equity in power is just that: an illusion.  Sure there are a few more women allowed to be a part of the authoritarian model (Pelosi) but mostly it is the men who choose what women can be a part of it.  Overwhelmingly women wanted Hillary, a strong, smart, dare I say, ambitious assertive women, and the alpha males of the democratic party (Kennedy, Kerry, Dean) all said NO...they choose. Despite what their constituencies said they went their own way.  

    We have not come a long way baby.  The authoritarian, paternalistic, hero worship mentality is in the democratic leadership as well as rampant on the blogs.

    [ Parent ]

    That's paternalism, not authoritarianism (none / 0) (#161)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:33:13 PM EST
    And you're right, the left in the '60s was drenched in it.  But except for the small Maoist cadres who took orders from China, the left groups weren't authoritarian at all, in my experience.  I sat through way too many meetings that went on for hours and hours and hours because everybody had to have their say about whether the demonstration would be at 12 or 1:00, who the speakers should be, whether other issues besides the main one should be raised, and if so, which ones, etc.  Most of them could have used a little less democracy and a lot more leadership, IMHO.

    [ Parent ]
    I Know This Isn't Quite "On Thread" (5.00 / 10) (#13)
    by flashman on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:50:16 AM EST
    but I've been frustrated for some time now at the whole idea of advocasy. I first truned to the netroots because the MSM refused to accurately report the story about Iraq, terrorism, the Bush admin, and many other important issues.  I found that many blogs, including KOS and TL, would publish deails that I could not get from the media.  There were other places I could get better news and commentary, what I might call the "side stream" press.  I'm talking about publications like The Nation, and syndicated shows like Real Time.  Now, however, I rarely turn to any of these outlets, because they've mostly become full length commercials for whatever cause they've decided to take up.  They present the same kind of one-sided propagantized version of information that I've found on Fox News and A.M. radio.  They are pretty much worthless rags and tabloids ( except for TL, of course :) )  I've stopped watching Olberman ( Countdown ), Real Time, stopped listening to AAR, stopped reading The Nation... There seems to be nowhere else to turn.

    Paranoia (5.00 / 12) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:56:14 AM EST
    The Netroots have adopted this notion that if you criticize, comment or point out issues, you are committing how treason and sabotage.  It's disturbing how few places are now open for discussion.  

    indeed (5.00 / 10) (#27)
    by Nettle on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:25:10 AM EST
    In part what I see is the "marketization" or commodification of the netroots where parameters are set that users may not be aware of.  The click-throughs and counts have become manipulating so that not just the comments are 'under review' (the authoritarianism there has been ramped up, much as I saw as an opposition researcher in the '90s with the rightwing web)but many issues and critique are simply outside the 'package' those sites have defined to bring site sponsors and ads.  (I don't sense that at TL, btw).

    Some are making money and living off their blogs and seeking power influence without giving credit to those who give to the same blogs for free.  It seems to me we're getting quite close to the closed intellectual environment the right had on the internet in the '90s (fake webrings espousing think tank ideologies, etc.) and there's kind of a creepy sense to it all with the backscratching and manipulation of the public sphere.  A centralization of sorts, not that there isn't still net dissent but some of us will have some sort of access to power and most won't.  

    dianem's comment about authoritarianism rings true to me though I'd broaden that to say that our political sphere has been so dumbed down by the constant play of Republican/Democrat as the only realities that the deeper discussions about what the US really is, i.e. democratic capitalist, authoritarian capitalist, democratic socialist, etc. get no play whatsoever and yet those are the models the rest of the world already recognizes.  If Bush/Cheney were tyrants domestically and in foreign policy then the Dems are equally tyrants if they don't change those policies and behavior but the spin will still be that Democrats are different, better, "change" without moving us out of that structure at all.  

    [ Parent ]

    Same tactics (5.00 / 6) (#131)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:18:48 PM EST
    Republican's used to crush any opposition to the many disasters of GWB. You were labeled as an unamerican traitor and the terrorists will win. Now we hear the same song from the Obama camp just different words. (McCain is worse and the Supreme Court).

    [ Parent ]
    I don't think so (none / 0) (#22)
    by MKS on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:16:15 AM EST
    Big Orange criticized Obama on FISA.

    It is after the Primaries and a little more than 3 months prior to the election.....One would think criticizing Republicans instead of only criticizing Obama might take hold at some point.
     

    [ Parent ]

    They did (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:27:47 AM EST
    But they did not criticize what underly Obama's flip flop on FISA - rampant Hoyerism.

    [ Parent ]
    This goes back to something I (5.00 / 8) (#47)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    have noticed myself about his voters in the priomary here in Arizona.  Many of them voted for Bush in 2000 and about half voted for Bush in 2004 (and get all shame faced).  Under it all you realize they are attracted to similar things in Obama that they once saw in Bush.  Many still hate Gore and Kerry.

    Obama's coalition as far as I can tell is made up of a lot of arrogant former Bush admirers.

    [ Parent ]

    I thought it was just me (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Jjc2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:10:07 PM EST
    that noticed that...or thought that.  Good to know I am not the only one.

    [ Parent ]
    PB 2.0 (5.00 / 9) (#19)
    by lambert on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:03:04 AM EST
    At Corrente, we've got an on-going series on Progressive Blogosphere 2.0 -- BTD was kind enough to kick off the series -- where we're focusing on the way forward. Not that the post mortem isn't fun, and all...

    glad you brought that up, lambert (none / 0) (#37)
    by Nettle on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:28:10 AM EST
    Its been an excellent discussion and I was in fact thinking of you in my last post because of the possibilities of PB 2.0 and the potential you all have unearthed over there.  Without commodifying anyone.  Its good work.  

    [ Parent ]
    The netroots are (primarily) (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:22:02 AM EST
    young, white, upper middle class men.  Many are former Republicans.  And they behave accordingly.

    I've heard some have even met a black person ... once.

    ;)

    I still maintain that blogs (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by Jim J on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:24:43 AM EST
    are simply a new medium for delivering the same old crap that's in newspapers and magazines. I believe the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the "progressive" blogs during the Democratic presidential primary bears me out in this.

    I couldn't agree more. I think media social (none / 0) (#162)
    by WillBFair on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:35:59 PM EST
    scientists figured out how vulgar and corrupt the far left is; MSNBC and the rest went right to that level; the left ate it with a shovel and were singing the party line before you could say 'dingbat brown nosers.'
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com
     

    [ Parent ]
    Please clarify: (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:26:56 AM EST
    I have been critiquing Obama for many years now because the political rhetoric and style he has practiced is, in my view, not a force for real substantive change.

    If you realized Obama' political rhetoric and style would not be a force for real substantive change, why back him in the Dem. primary?  

    Because the one alternative (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:29:22 AM EST
    that did offer that political style - John Edwards - took positions on trade that I found absolutely harmful.

    Hillary was not a viable alternative for what I wanted.

    [ Parent ]

    personally i saw that as (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:47:07 AM EST
    a reassurance to the manufacturing and industrial unions that he would have their back.

    I found nothing to be wrong in what he said.  The Eu practices a very careful set of subsidies and tariffs that have revived Eurpean manufacturing dominance globally.  There's nothing that Edwards talked about that has not been tested successfully in the EU.

    [ Parent ]

    As to Clinton: because of her (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:35:55 AM EST
    vote for the AUMF?

    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:38:00 AM EST
    Because of her initial political move to the Center stylistically.

    She did not adopt the Fighter mode until February 2008.

    [ Parent ]

    With all the cherry picking everywhere, let me (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by WillBFair on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:42:46 PM EST
    make one point about sweet Hillary.
    She went to the mat against overwhelming odds, and was willing to suffer a huge defeat, on healthcare, long before it was fashionable. The Clintons always made politcal choices, as all politicians do. But they always moved policy as far as posible in the liberal direction.
    As for style, I'll take their simple, precise, and elegant speech any day over Obama's shallow rhetoric.


    [ Parent ]
    Here Here (none / 0) (#180)
    by Bornagaindem on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 01:02:09 AM EST
     I couldn't agree with you more-Hillary did universal healthcare before it was cool.

    [ Parent ]
    Ironic. (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:39:34 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    But, BTD, you're a centrist ... (none / 0) (#65)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:45:07 AM EST
    not a progressive.

    So though you may see some value in a vibrant progressive movement.  You don't really believe in many of the issues.

    The Netroots don't either.  And I don't think most of them ever have.

    [ Parent ]

    technically progressives (none / 0) (#69)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:48:04 AM EST
    can be anywhere on the economic spectrum. And even the political spectrum. it's a meaningless term.

    [ Parent ]