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Obama And White Voters

Jonathan Singer and Alan Abramowitz insist Obama has nothing to worry about concerning white voters. Singer writes:

Remember all of the talk about Barack Obama's unique weakness among White voters? I noted the absurdity of this assertion earlier this month, but I thought it would be worth passing on a portion of professor Alan Abramowitz's analysis on the issue.

So does Barack Obama have a problem with white voters? The answer is a resounding "yes." And so has every other Democratic presidential candidate in the past forty years. The last Democratic candidate for president to win a majority of the white vote was Lyndon Johnson in 1964. Al Gore lost the white vote by 12 points in 2000. John Kerry lost the white vote by 17 points in 2004.

[More . . .]

Based on five national polls that have been conducted this month--Gallup, Newsweek, Quinnipiac, CBS/New York Times, and ABC/Washington Post--Barack Obama is currently trailing John McCain by an average of nine points among white voters. So Obama is doing much better than John Kerry and a little better than Al Gore. In fact, the only Democratic presidential candidates in the past four decades who have done better among white voters were Jimmy Carter in 1976 and Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Not coincidentally, they were also the only successful Democratic presidential candidates in the past four decades. [Emphasis BTD] Based on his current showing in the polls, Barack Obama may well be the next one. With whites expected to comprise less than 80 percent of the 2008 electorate, and with a 20-1 margin among black voters and a 2-1 margin among Hispanic voters, Obama's current nine point deficit among white voters would translate into a decisive victory in November [Emphasis BTD]

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Shocking, no... the numbers not lining up with the narrative pushed by a large segment of the punditry. Would it be better if Obama were able to secure a greater share of the White vote? Sure. But politics is about building coalitions, and there is no one single path to success that runs only through the support of White voters in America. Democrats can and repeatedly have secured pluralities and even majorities within the broader electorate even while carrying a minority of the White vote -- and, frankly, it seems more likely than not at this juncture that Obama will win in such a manner this year, too.

This is the Texeira/Judis Emerging Democratic Majority theory of electoral success. I am an adherent to this view. But it is silly to argue that this means that Obama does not have more problems with white voters than say, Hillary Clinton would have. This is a Democratic year and one would expect Obama to do better with white voters than he is currently performing.

Personally, I think the difference between Obama and Clinton with white voters is partly racial but also partly Obama's partial failure to resonate on economic issues and on the question of experience. As Singer says, coalition building is a tricky thing and Obama chose the Post Partisan Unity Schtick and only now is pivoting to a politics of contrast.

With regard to the polls, they seem to confirm these problems. The Newsweek poll, which has Obama by 3, shows McCain winning whites by 12 (Gore numbers). The Quinnipiac poll has McCain with a 7 point lead among whites. The Washington Post-ABC poll, where McCain holds an 8 point edge among whites, is interesting in that it shows a 37-24 Democratic edge in party ID, second only to being African American as an indicator of how voters will vote (note African Americans have been voting Dem by 9-1 for a long time, Obama pushes it up to 9.5-1). The NYTimes poll, which has Obama leading by 6 points, shows McCain with a 9 point lead among whites. The poll shows a Dem party ID advantage of 40-32.

On the economy, almost all the polls show Democrats with at least a 20 point lead on the economy. And Obama largely underperforms the Democratic brand on this issue. This underperformance is largely seen with white voters.

Obama's electoral poll performance is clearly effected greatly by his race. He will increase the already enormous Democratic advantage with African American voters. He does well with Latinos and not as well with white voters.

But he also has a problem making the sale on the economy, which turns up mostly with white voters. In an overwhelmingly Democratic year, Obama SHOULD be doing better than Al Gore, John Kerry and Michael Dukakis with white voters. He should be doing Bill Clinton numbers at the least. And he is not. I am very confident, almost certain that he will win the election. But there is no denying that in this election cycle, he is underperforming with white voters.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Confidence Levels (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:41:23 AM EST
    "I am very confident, almost certain that he will win the election."

    You shouldn't be.

    I think Intrade's 2 to 1 odds on the race are just about right.

    This election is amazingly like '76.  It's a heavily Democratic year and Obama should win, but his unwillingness to run as a Democrat in a Democratic year means McCain has an excellent shot at keeping it close enough to benefit from any favorable winds in the final weeks.

    Ummm... (3.50 / 4) (#6)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:07:45 AM EST
    Unwillingness to run as a Democrat? I'm sorry I must have missed that... care to elaborate? Moderation does not an Un-Democrat make.

    Personally, I think it will just take time. He's getting the foreign policy stuff worked out right now in the summer, when it's possible to make some pretty big waves while everyone's looking the other way. Once we get around to the fall, he'll be pushing the domestic strategy and making Mccain look as out of touch as he actually is.

    Parent

    Post-Partisan Schtick (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:15:39 AM EST
    "Unwillingness to run as a Democrat? I'm sorry I must have missed that... care to elaborate? "

    Same routine as Carter in '76.

    Unwillingness to run as a partisan.  Unwillingness to run on Democratic economics.

    It all adds up to trying to win an election based on personality in what is a particularly good partisan year for your side.  It's lousy electoral strategy, not to mention that it's abysmal political strategy for governing should you actually win...

    Parent

    I would respectfully (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:54:26 AM EST
    Disagree. More so when he and Mccain's economic proposals are compared. Calling for tax breaks for the middle class, repealing the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy, more emphasis on a green economy, working toward universal health coverage... these are not Republican positions and he hasn't wavered on any of them.

    I think the problem for a lot of people (myself included) is that we projected our leftist positions onto Obama and had him cut out to be the shining knight of the left-wing when it just isn't (and never was) true. But I can't really see how he's "failed to run as a Democrat" just because he's not as far left as we'd like.

    I know I'll be chastised for this as well but I really think that Obama's brand of centrism is way more palatable to me than the Clintonian triangulation of the 90s. All that triangulating arguably lost us Congress for a decade. I think there is a difference in ACTUAL compromise with people whom you disagree and just telling everyone what they want to hear.

    Call me a "kool aid drinker" if you like, but I think there's a way to advance a progressive agenda without having to demonize and isolate the people on the other side of the ideological spectrum, despite what they would do if given the other chance. Don't get me wrong, that means real compromise where BOTH parties leave unsatisfied and it means having to speak with those you'd rather strangle. However, I don't really see how we're going to survive as a country unless we give it a shot.

    Parent

    i think the problem with this (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:43:40 AM EST
    is that Obama is starting from a point of negotiaging where he wants to end up.  Both sides will NOT come away unhappy if Obama starts from the center with his negotiation with te far right.  The compromise will end up right of center, not in the center.

    Parent
    I disagree... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by OrangeFur on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:42:57 PM EST
    ... also respectfully.

    The Democrats lost Congress in 1994. Prior to that, the Clinton administration had actually acted in a generally bold liberal manner. Clinton's first act was to try to allow gays in the military. The 1993 economic plan, widely credited with paving the way for the prosperity of the rest of the decade, was passed with zero Republican votes in either chamber. And of course the 1994 health care debacle was one of the key factors in that election. These were all true-blue liberal positions.

    It was mostly after the Republicans had taken Congress that Clinton was forced into a more centrist position.

    Frankly, I still don't know Obama's positions on a lot of issues, and I never did. It always seemed to me that his campaign was built on image and not policy. The few issues where he seemed to take a stand--opposing universal health care, for instance--I tended to disagree with him. Now, after his brazen reversals on public financing and FISA, I'm not sure which of his remaining positions I can trust.

    Parent

    Democrats Lost In 1994 (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by BDB on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:08:12 PM EST
    Mostly because of corruption scandals, headed by the soon-to-be-indicted Dan Rostenkowski.  Now, of course, many of the Democrats in Congress chose to blame Clinton* because that detracted from their own responsibility.  But if you look at the Contract with America, you'll notice that the first promises are to reform Congress.  This was not an accident.  After 40 years in power, the Democrats in the House had become self-satisfied and corrupt (although the new GOP Congress would take less time to become more corrupt).

    *  Of course, Clinton's unpopularity didn't help matters.  Just as the Democratic Congress' need to show the media how fair and bipartisan they could be didn't help Clinton (although he certainly made his own mistakes as well).  From Sam Nunn kneecapping Clinton on gays in the military less than two weeks after he was sworn in to Jim Cooper and friends attacks on healthcare reform to the initiation of investigation after investigation on BS such as "travelgate" and Whitewater (the latter started in the Senate in the summer of 1994), the Congress did an awful lot to make sure Clinton was seen as weak and ineffective.  Just as they did an awful lot to make sure they themselves were seen as corrupt.  

    Parent

    ITA, the Democratic congress is kaputt (none / 0) (#107)
    by bridget on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:20:51 PM EST
    how much clearer can it get.

    Re all those investigations:
    the Dem congress didn't help Clinton and Janet Reno was too afraid to say NO

    it always was a mystery to me at the time why Bill Clinton didn't fire Rene after he saw the writing on the wall. Who knows, but he probably he thought it looked bad. But would W care about that? Hardly. Dems!!!

    But then again, with a wimpy Dem congress and a rightwing leaning media - he just couldn't win and
    this lasted until the end of his presidency. But considering the circumstances he was a pretty darn brilliant Dem president nonetheless and still v. popular.

    Re the Dems: they really are the problem.

    My blood pressure still rises every time when I think of the morality thumpers like Diane Feinstein (adored by the likes of tweety) who wanted BC punished some more cause the impeachment trial just wasn't enough for her ....

    ....then the Dems stood with W in the rose garden
    ... now we got Pelosi et al

    The Dem party really is kaputt. Is it even worth voting for them as liberals still insist? "In your dreams," writes Mike Whitney.

    Must READ:
    Mike Whitney's "The Democrats are the Real Problem" on counterpunch.com really is a Reality Check urgently needed. Don't miss.

     MW: "Nancy Pelosi is a perfect example of what the Democrats are all about......"

    Parent

    On your first point (none / 0) (#87)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:01:19 PM EST
    Doesn't that show that broad sweeping legislation from one side of the ideological spectrum results in an electoral backlash? I think that Clinton chose to make gays in the military his first real issue was a huge mistake and led ultimately to losing congress and the stalemate through 2000. That was a sucker play and frankly, he should have known better. The wedge issues only got more wedge-y from that point on.

    As to your second point, I can't help you to see what Obama stands for other than to point you to his words. I think all the information is there for anyone who wants it. As I said before, it's the summer and bringing out major domestic proposals to which the middle class voter can relate is going to be lost in the doldrums. Let the conventions and the debates commence. I'm not worried AT ALL about Obama v. Mccain in the debates, ESPECIALLY if it's an actual townhall-style. Some questions from real voters just might make Mccain's head explode.

    It's still early. I think the length of time left only helps Obama make his pitch and Mccain to look more and more tired.

    Parent

    I admit to being confused... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by OrangeFur on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:58:44 PM EST
    If I read your original comment correctly, you said that Clinton triangulated, and therefore the Dems lost control of Congress. I was pointing out that he was actually quite liberal, and then lost Congress, after which he may have triangulated.

    Now you're saying that governing from one side of the ideological spectrum also causes a backlash? I don't quite understand.

    As for Obama's words, well I remember him saying very clearly he would accept public financing. He said very clearly that he would filibuster FISA. He broke both of those promises. I know what his words are. I just don't know why I should believe him.

    Parent

    My point (none / 0) (#104)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:51:17 PM EST
    was that Clinton's triangulation was pretty quickly shown for what it was (gratuitous politicking) when he started his first term with the DODT debacle. For everyone who heard what they wanted to hear during the campaign, his first major hurdle came from what some would call the left-wing of the Dem party. I would argue that Obama's brand of post-partisanship seems more like the traditional art of compromise than Clinton's centrist strategy. Playing your various enemies and friends against each other isn't the same as actually talking honestly to everyone to see where you can advance together.

    If Obama is elected, starts to enact a modest agenda quickly with a likely Dem majority, and is successful, then he can point to not only being able to work with congress, but also with the leftover right-wingers. I think he would be smart enough not to campaign as a centrist, then push a liberal agenda once he's in (like Clinton did). Of course, once the backlash started, then the gridlock only got worse with the '94 class of congress.

    Now, make no mistake, I herald the Clinton years as a great success, despite what I see as political failures. But that doesn't mean Clinton did us any favors with long-term party building.

    It's not the triangulating or the ideological governance that lost us congress; it was the combination of both. I don't think Obama is trying to do that. For some crazy reason I see him as sincere and moderate (the exact opposite of Mccain and Bush), which is why I support him in the first place.

    Now, the caveat: FISA was a complete disaster. It brought him down many points in my book, and really cheapened his image, IMO. However, I still think he's the best choice come November.

    As to his reversal on public financing, I don't consider agreeing to a good faith discussion with Mccain's camp, then bowing out when it was clear Mccain wouldn't come to sensible terms a reversal. He always said it was contingent on Mccain's behaviour in regards to 527S; Mccain choked and Obama walked. No harm no foul, IMO.

     

    Parent

    In your dreams ... (none / 0) (#109)
    by bridget on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:42:37 PM EST
    Let's have an example re the following:

    "I would argue that Obama's brand of post-partisanship seems more like the traditional art of compromise than Clinton's centrist strategy."

    Compared to President Clinton Obama has a brand? That's easy to type considering BC was president for eight years and Obama only talked campaign stuff but has done absolutely NOTHING yet.

    When did Obama ever talk honestly to everyone to see where you can advance together? When? What happened after he put himself out like that? Elaborate, please.

    Obama's campaign talk that he would talk to adversaries like Ahmadinejad was nothing but flipflop propaganda. Considering that he has NEVER, never ever, has given a minute of his time to a foreign journalist - not one interview, period - the Obama brand is a hopeful dream by kool-aid Obamafans.

    Read "Snubbed by Obama" by Tagesspiegel's Christoph v. Marshall in yesterday's washingtonpost.com.

    And like I wrote above, Mike Whitney's article "The Democrats are the Real Problem" on counterpunch.com is a Must Read. And Democrats= Obama.

    Parent

    thx for link (none / 0) (#114)
    by laurie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:13:24 AM EST
    Wow. (none / 0) (#116)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 11:31:25 AM EST
    Well, I can't argue with the bruised sensibility of a German reporter who didn't get the access he wanted and the vitriol of a militant anti-war protester who doesn't see the difference between occupation and justified actions. </snark>

    The fact that Obama is on a tour such as this is news itself to the foreign press. His meetings have been covered, he gave a presser in Jordan today, his speech Thursday in Berlin will be pored over for weeks and likely written about for months. What would be the point in going beyond that to do Q&As with foreign journalists for a foreign audience? He's not running for president of the world. Additionally, you state:

    "Considering that he has NEVER, never ever, has given a minute of his time to a foreign journalist - not one interview, period"

    Umm, then why did the German reporter referenced  say he had campaign access in the early days of the campaign? And why does he resort to such fence-sitting language as "almost none" and "as far as I know". Kudos to him for plugging his "widely read" book about Obama, though.

    As far as examples of actual compromise, well, here ya go:

    Here.
    Here ( a particularly good resource).
    Here.
    And here.

    As to the second point: I hate war. I hate guns, I hate missiles, I hate bombs, i hate IEDs, I hate snipers, I hate fighter planes. Take a look at my work if you doubt my sincerity.

    Whitney's points about the Dem leadership are true and the anger is justified. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Pelosi has "brushed aside" the people who got her elected, but she definitely deserves scorn for many of the moves she has made. Likewise Obama for his FISA vote. I'll never defend that and it's the one glaring black mark on his recent record, IMO.

    However, to claim that Obama and the Democrats are "blood thirsty" and are more of a war mongering danger than the current Repub cabal is laughable. Obama supports fighting/or capturing the people who attacked us. He supports divesting ourselves from a mess in Iraq so that we can focus on this goal. Explain to me your problems with this plan? What would your alternative be? What should we do about the autonomy of the Taliban and Al Quaeda in rural afghanistan and Pakistan?

    Again, I'd be willing to take those articles more seriously if they provided any sources or proof of their accusations. As it is, I see them as more fire and brimstone that only serves to surreptitiously support the meme that Mccain would be more desirable (or at least just as bad) in the WH than Obama. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

    Parent

    The Problem (3.60 / 5) (#35)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:11:05 AM EST
    "I think the problem for a lot of people (myself included) is that we projected our leftist positions onto Obama and had him cut out to be the shining knight of the left-wing"

    I'd say you have that problem because you're not politically very savvy.

    Obama has been quite openly running as someone who is not a friend to progressives since the very beginning of this campaign.  It was and continues to be his central strategy.

    If you deal with your projected visions rather than what actually exists, you're going to get a pretty distorted picture.

    "However, I don't really see how we're going to survive as a country unless we give it a shot."

    I don't see the problem with letting McCain clean up the mess for four years, increasing the Democratic margins in the House and Senate in 2010, and coming back in 2012 with a nominee who is willing to actually stand with the Democratic Party.

    Obama has made it clear that he's not going to use the Democratic Congress to actually accomplish anything, so why take the big electoral hit in 2010 that would come with having a Democratic President if we're not going to get any policy goals enacted?

    Parent

    If McCain (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:42:35 AM EST
    were somehow to become President, it would mean Republicans have rallied and would likely continue to rally.  A 2010 Congress with McCain at the head would have more Republican pickups than Dem pickups, I believe (the GOP whining would be similar to what we hear now - "We can't get anything done because there are too many Dems in Congress!"  And thus they would creep back into their House seats).  Any slight success McCain would have in office would help rebuild the GOP brand.  I don't think we can wait until 2012.  Obama is not my ideal, nor is our current Dem Congress, but giving them a shot is much better than a Republican resurrection.

    Parent
    Historically... (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:57:08 AM EST
    "A 2010 Congress with McCain at the head would have more Republican pickups than Dem pickups"

    In 24 of the last 27 off-year Congressional elections, the President's Party has lost seats in the House.

    The odds are overwhelmingly good that we'll lose seats in '10 if Obama is President and win seats if McCain is President.

    I wouldn't mind the loss if I thought Obama would actually accomplish anything different than McCain during the next four years, but I don't think that, so I do mind the loss.

    Parent

    With your last graf (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:06:13 PM EST
    you've summed up why this is a fruitless debate. You see no difference between a Mccain Presidency and an Obama Presidency. You are shoving the country's political future through a narrow historical lens that benefits your opinion without any credence given to the fact that this election is both unprecedented and vital.

    If you think that we can survive four years of Mccain policy (which is 99.9% Bush policy, given his cadre of advisers), even what little he could accomplish, then more power to you. I have confidence that a majority of voters fear that outcome as much as I do.

    Parent

    he's looking at Carter's legacy... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:16:05 PM EST
    ...Reagan.  

    Parent
    And I'm saying (none / 0) (#56)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    this isn't 1976.

    Parent
    The Itemized List (none / 0) (#61)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:35:59 PM EST
    The results of Carter's election:

    • The legitimization of deregulation and rightward leaning economic policies.

    • Big losses in the House and Senate in '78.

    • Big losses in the House and Senate in '80.

    • Reagan's election in '80.

    • The fundamental legislative damage done from '81 to '83.

    And there were no benefits to go along with these losses.  Carter achieved no legislative goals because he ran on no legislative goals.

    Parent
    That's all fine (none / 0) (#65)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    but you're falsely equating Carter's ineffectualness with Obama. I still have yet to see ANY proof from you that Obama has no policy agenda.

    And, I still don't understand how this list proves that things would have been different under a full Ford term. Republican policies rallied to the fore because of a Carter presidency, but if they would have sailed through under Ford, somehow this would have kept the Reagan Revolution at bay, especially given the animosity between the two? Reagan would have come crashing in in 1980, Carter or no. And, we managed to retain a House majority the whole time, which kept a lot of Reagan's loonier policies in check. You could also look to Clinton's two terms as an example of the opposite side of the coin, except in that instance, we LOST BOTH HOUSES FOR A DECADE.

    I think it boils down to whether you're willing to watch the the whole thing burn to the ground before you rebuild it or whether it's better to replace things gradually. It seems you prefer the former.

    Parent

    Let Me Tell You What I'm Equating... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:12:33 PM EST
    "you're falsely equating Carter's ineffectualness with Obama."

    No.  I'm accurately equating Carter's post-partisan unity schtick with Obama's post-partisan unity schtick.

    I'm accurately equating Carter's reliance on the symbolism of unity to cover for his lack of a Democratic policy agenda with Obama's reliance on the symbolism of unity to cover for his lack of a Democratic policy agenda.

    I'm saying that the lousy results of Carter's choices were a direct function of Carter's choices, and that Obama is making very similar choices.

    Parent

    I'd just also add... (none / 0) (#71)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:11:46 PM EST
    ... that we also didn't just force the president's resignation, which changes this election year substantially from 1976. We've got a Dem landslide coming DESPITE that fact.

    Food for thought.

    Parent

    Well, you've got me there. (none / 0) (#57)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:26:26 PM EST
    However, I still think that McCain could give the Republicans room to build an identity separate from Bush.  And I wonder by how much more the American people would be willing to expand the Democratic Congress with its approval ratings at 9% right now.  

    Parent
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#62)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:41:53 PM EST
    And that's a very valid point about the approval ratings. Which underscores the importance of 2008 even more drastically. This is shaping up to be a landslide election year in favor of democrats (with a heaping helping of anti-incumbent fervor thrown in). Not to mention that 9% approval rating is a bit misleading anyway.

    We have to capitalize on that majority the very instant Obama is sworn in. If the American people see that a) the Dems can get things done when they're in charge, b) they can work with moderate Repubs to do so, c) those policies actually benefit the majority of Americans, then you won't be seeing any major Repub pick-ups in 2010.

    I understand people are leery of the whole "Hope and Change" thing. People are looking more at the PR message than the wonky stuff behind it. I think that's the reason why the status quo vote (i.e. the White Male vote)isn't rallying like many think it should. That's fine, because I also  think it's a good enough message that the wonky stuff will reinforce the PR when it's given a chance to work. But rest assured, none of the above will be remotely possible should Mccain win. And the country may not survive.

    Parent

    Do You Mean, Like, Policy? (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:48:14 PM EST
    "People are looking more at the PR message than the wonky stuff behind it."

    If the "wonky stuff" were behind it, I would've been the first person on board.

    Instead, we have a Democratic nominee running on the most rightward leaning "wonky stuff" since Carter, which is one of the reasons I wouldn't mind seeing him lose.

    Parent

    Proof? (none / 0) (#68)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:07:56 PM EST
    Anything to back this up? Which of the policy proposals that I listed above constitute "right-leaning" to you?

    Parent
    You conveniently left out (4.00 / 2) (#41)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:37:01 AM EST
    the part of my quote that said "though he isn't and never was." Thanks, though, for assuming that I'm just a naif who couldn't possibly understand how this big, scary political process works.

    I'd also like to know how you gather that he isn't going to work with a Dem majority in congress? Has he specifically said this? Further, how the heck do you think Mccain will have a chance at enacting his policies with a Dem congress?

    I think it's clear from your statement that you're perfectly fine with having Mccain as president. This is simply unacceptable to me because, despite his flaws, Obama is more in line with my ideals than Mccain could ever hope to be.

    I don't think Mccain has the smarts, the ability, or the will to "clean up the mess" of the last 8 years. Especially because he seems hell bent on proving that he will be exactly the same on almost every issue.

    Parent

    If It Quacks Like a Naif... (2.60 / 5) (#45)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:45:27 AM EST
    "how the heck do you think Mccain will have a chance at enacting his policies with a Dem congress?"

    I don't think McCain would have a chance in hell of enacting his policies, which is why I wouldn't mind seeing him elected.

    "Obama is more in line with my ideals than Mccain could ever hope to be."

    Mine too.  That doesn't mean it would be best for lefties if Obama won, however.

    I think we can all agree that if one reviews history, one would conclude that the left would've been better off with Ford beating Carter in '76, even though Carter was more in line with the left's ideals than Ford.

    Electing a Democratic President in 2008 is going to bring about big losses in the 2010 elections, and given Obama's lack of agenda, I'm not sure how to justify that.

    Parent

    Again (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:00:30 PM EST
    you've proven that you have a bias towards Mccain and won't consider any of my points.

    Where is your proof that Obama would not work with a Dem congress? Where is the proof that Ford would have been better for the left than Carter (?!). Where is the proof of the assertion that Obama has no agenda? You stated earlier Mccain would "clean up the mess" but if he can't get anything done, how is that supposed to happen? Finally, how exactly should the country wait out the next four years with all this "nothing" going on?

    Also, you can keep belittling me as some doe-eyed innocent how has no idea how the big game is played but that really doesn't prove anything other than you'd rather call names than substantively debate the points.

    Parent

    Biases (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:06:30 PM EST
    "you've proven that you have a bias towards Mccain"

    I have a bias toward enacting progressive policy.  And I counterintuitively think an Obama loss would probably be the best path toward achieving my bias.

    When the Democrats decide to be "post-partisan" and the Republicans decide to be partisan, anti-progressive policy wins no matter who prevails in any particular election.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:19:28 PM EST
    the view that Mccain should win so that the entire country suffers for another four years while we plot our progressive return is really swaying me.

    If you honestly believe that moving incrementally towards a progressive agenda with Obama is LESS palatable than never seeing one with Mccain, then we have nothing more to discuss.

    The deal is that post-partisanship (as practiced by Obama thus far) is an ideal unto itself. You look for the area where you agree and can find common ground. That's the way you advance an agenda. If Obama were to rule by fiat, as Bush does and Mccain seems to want to, then we'd have four more years of a bitter, polarized country that has more important things to do than simply mud-sling.

    And you still haven't shown me where Obama's "lack of agenda" is hiding. All I see when I visit his website is pages and pages of policy proposals. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

    Parent

    Very Different Ideals (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:30:04 PM EST
    "The deal is that post-partisanship (as practiced by Obama thus far) is an ideal unto itself."

    We have different ideals.

    "the view that Mccain should win so that the entire country suffers for another four years"

    If I think that McCain and Obama would achieve a similar lack of legislative action over the next four years, why would I think the country would suffer more under McCain than Obama?

    Parent

    You are welcome (none / 0) (#67)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    to think whatever you like. But that doesn't mean it's true.

    I still haven't seen any proof from you of this supposed parity between the two's policy proposals. Nor have I yet seen any proof that Obama would not work with such a majority.

    So, there ya go.

    Parent

    Reading Comprehension (none / 0) (#74)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:17:17 PM EST
    "I still haven't seen any proof from you of this supposed parity between the two's policy proposals. "

    That's pretty obviously not what I'm asserting...

    Parent

    You're saying (none / 0) (#75)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:23:50 PM EST
    "...McCain and Obama would achieve a similar lack of legislative action over the next four years..."

    but nor providing any shred of proof as to why this would be so. Simply stating that Obama doesn't have a legislative agenda and that he would not work with a Dem majority doesn't make it true.

    Parent

    Also, perhaps we could move this to another thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:24:59 PM EST
    I could argue why this tangent is germane to the race discussion, I think some might feel otherwise.

    Parent
    Parallels (none / 0) (#99)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 03:06:59 PM EST
    "I could argue why this tangent is germane to the race discussion"

    Race is the best argument for an Obama vote this November.

    And again, we're back to the parallels to the Carter '76 campaign...

    Parent

    Still waiting (none / 0) (#105)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:54:12 PM EST
    for proof of Obama's lack of agenda or refusal to work with a Dem congress.

    Parent
    For a candidate who didn't (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:04:51 AM EST
    want to be defined as black or white, he sure has made this a big issue from the start. I am white and I reserve my right to vote for the candidate most qualified, who offers me and mine a better country. I believe in our constitution. I want a president who does, too, black or white.

    Well... (4.00 / 3) (#9)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:10:32 AM EST
    Despite the fact that he has to tell his life story on the trail, and it involves him being, well, black... I don't think he's the one talking about all the problems he has with white voters.

    That would be the ever chattering MSM.

    Parent

    When you advertise yourself (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:17:02 AM EST
    as one thing, and campaign as another, that is a disingenuous position at best. The media can tell his life story. He campaigned as new and different and he turned out to be the used and the same. Just because he has a "D" after his name, his principles (as a man of the people)have, imo, been extremely compromised by he himself. You can be a centrist (which is just fine)and still be a dem. I have not seen him put country first, he has put only himself first. If you turn your back and listen to him, is he black or white? He uses both because he has learned to use both. Then why tell us he is neither?!

    Parent
    Doesn't matter who is (or is not) talking about (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by prittfumes on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:30:24 AM EST
    O's problems with white voters. Lots of folks are thinking about it. When O loses, don't blame it on the MSM.

    Parent
    So you're saying (3.50 / 2) (#30)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    they don't shoulder the vast majority of the blame for pushing this narrative to the masses? Despite numerous attempts by the Obama camp to deal with the issue and move past it? I know a lot of people here don't agree but I don't think Obama has deliberately tried to make race an issue in this campaign unless goaded into a reactionary position. Warning voters in FL that race would be used as a weapon is simply stating facts, IMO.

    Some others can view it how they choose, but to me, that speech Obama gave on race was not just a calculating, strictly political stunt. I truly believe that he IS trying to move us to a point where we can discuss these festering issues in this country. It's not an easy task.

    I won't be placing all the blame on the MSM if Obama doesn't win. But to say they don't merit SOME blame is beyond me. They have a huge stake in keeping this a horse race and the race angle is just one of the things that keeps it so.

    Parent

    Obama does not want to move (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by zfran on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:17:10 AM EST
    past it. He uses it when it is convenient to do so. I appreciate your comments of wanting to believe that he IS all, however, I believe he has shown us with his actions that he is not. People say that he has to do what he has to do to win. A good rule of thumb is watch exactly what he does to win and you will also see how he will govern. Voting against the "rule of law" with FISA, for instance, is voting against the people. His vote wasn't black or white. Just what would be the most helpful to him.  

    Parent
    I won't argue (4.00 / 3) (#46)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:49:22 AM EST
    that the FISA vote isn't a big sticking point with me. I was deeply disappointed and ashamed that he made that call.

    However, I fundamentally disagree that he has made race an issue, other than the fact that he is black. I've seen numerous examples of "proof" of this from people, but I haven't yet been swayed that he's maliciously or conveniently playing the race card. The issue necessarily comes up by virtue of his being who he is, but I still believe that he's been entirely reactive on that front.

    And, lke it or not, the MSM will continue to push narratives that advance a corporatist agenda, whether it be Obama's problems with white voters, Mccain's "maverick-ness", or whatever other BS that get people to think this is a close race. That's what they HAVE to do. So narratives may be crap, but they're not going to stop.

    Parent

    Narratives? (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:17:15 AM EST
    I've had my fill of narratives this election season.  From the Clinton Rules(in all media) to the Obama Can Do No Wrong narratives(in the new media), I am sick and tired of narratives.

    Parent
    I am not implying that the MSM bears no (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by prittfumes on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:52:53 AM EST
    responsibility at all in "pushing this narrative" to the masses. Neither do I believe they must "shoulder the vast majority of the blame." O's preemptive strike in FL was a clever move: anticipate and render less effective post-convention 527 activity.

    IMO the famous Race Speech was an attempt to justify Wright's comments and O's long-time relationship with Wright; the race angle is not just one of the things that is keeping this a horse race, and it is not at all clear that Obama is "trying to move us to a point where we can discuss these festering issues in this country."

    Parent

    I'd agree (none / 0) (#58)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:27:17 PM EST
    that the speech served a political purpose, but I don't think it was, at it's core, a political speech.

    I guess I think that this isn't just a job for Obama; this is a job for the whole country. He can't do it alone.

    Parent

    Obama was the first to inject race into (4.66 / 6) (#20)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:33:28 AM EST
    the general election.  As  you recall he went to FL and gave a speech where he "warned" that the repugs would be out there reminding everyone in a whispering campaign that he's "black".  He basically pre-emtively accused McCain of playing the race-card.

    Parent
    How True (4.00 / 4) (#31)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:08:14 AM EST
    Obama was the first to inject race into the general election.

    It is a given, he injected race into the GE simply by running. Yes it is a historic election indeed, good point.

    Parent

    Guilt works (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    There are people who will vote for him to prove they didn't consider his race, and people who will vote for him because they won't vote for any of the other choices, and there are people who will vote for him because they trust the (D) beside his name, and there are people who will vote for him because they like him.

    There are people of ALL races won't vote for him because they listen to him when he discloses his plans,

    "We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded," Obama told a Colorado Springs audience earlier this month.

    Isn't that the National Guard? What does he need this domestic army for?

    When his problem with white voters was mentioned by Hillary Clinton, it was more narrowed to "Working Class White".

    Parent

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#78)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:28:23 PM EST
    he's talking about making sure the National Guard can do its job here at home, with enough people filling its ranks, without being called away to Iraq or Afghanistan?

    What do YOU suppose he means by it?

    Parent

    is it too much to ask (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:49:02 PM EST
    to have him (and all pols) talk and explain policies in a way that they are understandable by everyone and mean the same thing to everyone so that each voter doesn't treat him as the "blank canvas" to project their own ideas onto?

    Wouldn't it be nice to not have to have some pundit tell you what he really menat by what he said?

    Parent

    That part of his speech was (none / 0) (#111)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:45:27 PM EST
    left out of the written transcript on his web site.

    Parent
    I think there is much dishonesty in polls (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by stefystef on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:10:00 AM EST
    I really believe that people are giving false information to pollsters and giving answers that seem "correct", not honest.  

    While Obama will have white voters, of course, I don't believe it will be the overwhelming numbers his campaign is trying to hype.  IMO, the latter primaries in WV, KY, SD with OH and PA are more reflective of the direction of white voters.   FL and MI will be battlegrounds, despite what is being said in the Obama circles.  And I don't believe the Southern Strategy is going to be as successful as people want to believe.  

    I never drank the Obama "kool-aid" and never bought into his hype.  I feel that people are saying things to pollsters and outsiders so they don't seem "racist" or "narrowminded" about voting for a bi-racial man... but when they go into that booth in November, they will vote their real feelings- and it won't all be for Obama.

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by pluege on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:32:42 AM EST
    Poll answers and voting booth lever pulling are completely separate and compartmentalized in people's minds. Racism (and sexism and intolerance, and not to mention class warfare) continue to run rampant in many areas of the population. Obama's white vote support will be a huge disappointment on election night and he better have a Plan B to make up for the shortfall.

    Parent
    No one likes to be called a racist (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by goldberry on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:38:45 PM EST
    Voters will get even in November in the privacy of the voting booth.  You can't goaround insulting a person's character when they have the power to make you eat those words.  

    Parent
    You got that right... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by stefystef on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:44:20 PM EST
    It's not fair to call people who don't want to vote for Obama "racist" because that may not be the reason.

    Not everyone is racist... some are, some aren't.  But I like to think that voters and Americans have become more aware and conscious of the political environment thanks to the Democratic Primaries.

    If the majority of Americans say they don't have a problem with a black President, and Obama LOSES, then perhaps it's not about the race of the man, but rather the character.

    Parent

    I Missed That (none / 0) (#101)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:07:31 PM EST
    When did Obama call any voters racist?

    Parent
    Good grief! (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by tree on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:04:51 PM EST
    Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).

    But -- so the questions you're most likely to get about me, 'Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What's the concrete thing?' What they wanna hear is -- so, we'll give you talking points about what we're proposing -- close tax loopholes, roll back, you know, the tax cuts for the top 1 percent. Obama's gonna give tax breaks to middle-class folks and we're gonna provide health care for every American. So we'll go down a series of talking points.

    But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    And don't tell me you don't know where that speech came from.

    Parent

    I think it's a bit more complex (none / 0) (#108)
    by rottenart on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 05:23:48 PM EST
    than "he's calling people who won't vote for him racist."

    It seems to me that his analysis is spot on. Do you dispute the point he's making? I don't take it to mean that these people are racist because they won't vote for him; it's that they are using various scapegoats for frustration over thirty years of government yanking the rug out from under them repeatedly. Sure, it wasn't the smartest political statement, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

    Parent

    Must we go round and round this again? (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by tree on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 06:02:27 PM EST
    I don't have time for this cuz I'm out the door, but no, I think the statement was bigoted and propagated stereotypes and was historically inaccurate as well. If you really want to go there again I suggest you look up old posts here around the time of the original Obama speech. Personally I've had it with people who think its fine and "true" to stereotype people by race, and that includes stereotyping white people.

    Parent
    So... (none / 0) (#113)
    by rottenart on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 09:22:52 AM EST
    Just because the analysis at TL said it was a racist statement, that makes it so? I read the whole speech and, while ham-handed, I still contend that he understands these communities quite well. There's plenty of people that won't admit to their bitterness and who don't see how lost opportunity creates scapegoats out of "The Other."

    Armchair sociology? Sure. Racist? Hardly.


    Parent

    absolutely (4.20 / 5) (#39)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:28:45 AM EST
    The fear of being publicly branded a "racist" is why Obama did so well in (very public) caucuses while faltering in the (more private) Primaries.  If a Pollster asks if your decision to support or not support Obama is racially based, most will defend themselves by insisting that, no, it's not.

    In reality, when we get to November -- and if he's still our Nominee --, the Republicans will have painted him so successfully as inept, inexperienced, over his head and not ready for the job that in the minds of most Voters his being black will be the least of his problems.

    If I were the Obama Campaign I'd drop the knee-jerk tendency to blame racism in others as the root of all criticism and have Barack rehearsing 24/7 for the inevitable debates -- a forum he clearly doesn't excel in or enjoy and one, this Season, will be the most watched in History, I'm sure -- against McCain.

    Parent

    he did so well in caucuses because (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:54:32 PM EST
    Clinton supporters fall in the same demographic as people who are least likely to be able to attend a caucus.  Compare the results of the states that held both caucuses and primaries.  I think there were 3 or 4 of them.  In TX Clinton won thr e primary portion.  In the other states she lost the caucuses by around 30 points.  But, lost the primaries by about 6%.

    Parent
    He Did So Well In Caucuses (none / 0) (#102)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:13:24 PM EST
    because his campaign actually organized on the ground to win them as if they mattered.

    Didn't Clinton win the Nevada caucus? Why was that? Could it be because her campaign really challenged Obama there?

    Imagine what might have been if they had followed that strategy in all those February caucuses where he racked up such a lead in pledged delegates.

    Parent

    Like it or not The Bradley Effect (none / 0) (#29)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:02:57 AM EST
    will be in play if obama is the nominee.

    Parent
    Hmmmm... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:12:15 AM EST
    Personally, I think the difference between Obama and Clinton with white voters is partly racial

    I think it is partly racial, too, but I think this is a multi-layered, very complicated equation. For example, how much of that is white racism towards a black guy, how much of that is white voter perception of black racism towards whites, and how much is something else?

    doesn't matter if it translates into... (none / 0) (#21)
    by pluege on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:34:41 AM EST
    a vote for mccain or not voting. Its still a loss for Obama due to racism.

    Parent
    You're making a leap there (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:39:45 AM EST
    Big leap (4.33 / 6) (#77)
    by lmv on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:25:43 PM EST
    HRC and McCain are known quantities and Obama is not, even now with 3 1/2 months to go to the GE.  

    Obama's problem isn't race.  It's that he doesn't stand for anything.  We don't know who he is, what he wants to do as president, or why he's even running, given his extremely thin resume.

    I think "white voters" are getting a bad rap here when the fault really lies with the candidate.  

    And, what do they mean by "white voters?"  Southerners (implying racism), Rust Belt (implying lack of education), Appalachia (implying ignorance), Westerners (implying skepticsm)?  Surely, not the enlightened East Coast!

    (yeah, the last sentence was snark)


    Parent

    huh? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:53:46 AM EST
    How is this a reply to my comment?

    Parent
    I think it's largely a generational issue (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:17:09 AM EST
    I suspect if you had the polling of white voters divided by age, you'd see Obama ahead or very close among those in their mid-forties or younger. But I think older white voters tend to be resistant, partly due to race, partly due to being less taken in by charisma and the "there's never been anyone like this before in the history of the world" thing, and partly because Obama's "our time has come" message implicitly speaks to young voters at the expense of older ones.

    I do think he's pretty likely to win in spite of all that, but his campaign needs to avoid giving off an air of "we don't need those voters".

    Mid-Forties? (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Petey on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:26:24 AM EST
    "I suspect if you had the polling of white voters divided by age, you'd see Obama ahead or very close among those in their mid-forties or younger"

    The dividing line you're referring to is more like 30 than mid-40's...

    "But I think older white voters tend to be resistant, partly due to race"

    Race is immensely oversold in what is going on.  I think Kerry as the nominee would be running almost identically to Obama.

    Parent

    It would be impossible imo for race to be (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by prittfumes on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:56:04 AM EST
    "immensely oversold". It is the defining issue and most of us are talking all around it. People are telling pollsters that race will not be an issue in their decision. From all appearances, the Obama family will easily weather an extreme disappointment. IMO they are in for a devastating loss in the only "poll of polls" that will really matter: the one that will occur on November 4th.

    Parent
    Too late for that (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by jen on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:09:58 AM EST
    I do think he's pretty likely to win in spite of all that, but his campaign needs to avoid giving off an air of "we don't need those voters".

    Joseph Cannon:

    Famous last words: "We can win without them!"



    Parent

    Thx for link (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by laurie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:28:03 AM EST
    It's more a gender split (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:11:03 AM EST
    per analyses on pollster.com.

    So with the leap to racism that some here make, apparently white women are not racists, while white men are.

    Parent

    Yeah, I heard that spin too from hip 'young' men (4.50 / 8) (#22)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:39:03 AM EST
    ... well into their forties who use their support of Obama like some kind of miracle youth cream. It's as self-deluding as the backwards ballcap for shaving decades off a puffed up doughy ego.

    It not only wears that dumb but looks it too, as women who are chronologically younger being talked down to have no doubt noticed. (Actually, this ridiculous game is amusing for kids of all ages.)

    Please, for the love of Pete (Tom, Dick, Harry ... fill in other guys' names at will) could we as a society come together and stop finding new ways to excuse men behaving like jackwads?

    Parent

    Mid 40s and under is young if you support Obama (none / 0) (#79)
    by lmv on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:36:30 PM EST
    but it was those "bitter" 40+ women who supported Hillary.

    Polls, like any data, can be sliced and diced to support your argument.

    What I find ridiculous is this.  During the primaries, the MSM would report that "young" voters 45 and under supported Obama BUT "older" voters, especially women, 40+ supported Hillary.

    So, I was old as an HRC supporter but I would have been young if I'd supported Obama.  Ok, then.

    Parent

    Heck (none / 0) (#103)
    by daring grace on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 04:22:16 PM EST
    Even by that contortionist measure, I'm still 'old' as an Obama supporter (over 50). :)

    Parent
    What share of the white vote, (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:18:28 AM EST
    nationally, would you expect Hillary Clinton to have at this juncture?  Obama has definitely made up some ground.

    But I think a state by state demographic breakdown is more useful than a nationwide breakdown.  After all, we saw in the primary that Obama has no problem with the white vote in the Mountain West.  That said, Obama is only 7 points behind McCain with white voters in Ohio, according to SUSA (the poll was a month ago).  Not so bad.

    Wrong, wrong and even more wrong (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by koshembos on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    First the claim that part of the white voters are racists. Primary statistic showed the racism exists in similar proportions, percentages, in WV and WI. In the first Obama lost big and the second he won.

    Singer and Abramowitz use create math. Since they assume that Obama will win, then they have a new coalition to sell. That's a pipe dream that may turn to be reality, but has no basis in reality we know today. They are no better than the regular pundit who has absolutely no clue and sounds ridiculous.

    There is an important consideration everyone here ignores. After the election, Obama may have to govern. You don't want a patch work of supporters because your mandate evaporates quite fast. Obama decided to throw white poor and blue collar workers under the bus. The result will be disappearance of even a semblance of a progressive policy. It may be fine with Singer and Abramowitz, it isn't fine with me.

    Wrong, wrong to compare WV and WI (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Cream City on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:09:45 AM EST
    as two states that I know fairly to very well.

    You're not factoring in very different voting registration rules allowing and even historically encouraging crossover in one state vs. another.  And  very different timeframes -- as Obama peaked in WI, and it was before the Reverend Wright debacle . . . and, frankly, if Michelle Obama had said her line about pride in her country even a day earlier, it might have made a difference.  And you're not factoring in the debacle of the Clinton campaign at that point, with the dumping of Doyle and almost no campaign in WI.  

    Whereas Obama was well along on his downhill slide by the time the primaries got to WV.

    Find other examples and evidence, and you may have an argument.

    Parent

    Using primary stats (none / 0) (#36)
    by Fabian on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:14:23 AM EST
    is shaky at best.  For every Obama win, we can find an Obama loss - especially in WV.  I forget what OH looked like, but I believe the demographics there weren't that encouraging.

    The best stats for the general are state by state demographics.  Especially since turnout varies greatly among different demographics.

    Parent

    Doesn't this leave out (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:01:32 PM EST
    the way questions (at least during the primaries) were worded? "Did race play a factor in your decision?"  This doesn't account for whether it was a positive imnpact(such as 90% of AA's voting for Obama) or negative.  All the talking heads and novices always assume that if you answered that question "yes, race played a factor in my decision" that it was negative.

    it depends on who was asked the question (none / 0) (#53)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:10:32 PM EST
    CNN had those numbers separated in their exit poll numbers so that you were only seeing the white answers.

    But, if you look at the data from PA, twice as many blacks (by percentage) said race was a factor as did whites.

    And, in PA, of the whites who said it was a factor, about 1/4 of them voted for Obama.

    The numbers were similar in OH.

    By the time you got to WV and KY, the number of blacks voting in those states was too small for the exit pols to even report the data for black voters, they only reported the results for whites.  And, again, they were similar to PA and OH.

    Parent

    Boy.... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by DYBO on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:29:49 PM EST
    Some people around here are going to be very unhappy when Obama beats the tar out of McCain and shows that they have been entirely wrong.

    I hope we're able to retrieve and review some of these bizarre anti-Obama pronouncements in November.  

    No, No, No! {{sigh}} (5.00 / 5) (#93)
    by goldberry on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:29:58 PM EST
    This sentence is only partially correct:
    >Personally, I think the difference between Obama and Clinton with white voters is partly racial but also partly Obama's partial failure to resonate on economic issues and on the question of experience.

    My opposition to Obama has absolutely NOTHING to do with race and many, if not MOST of the anti-Obama voters feel the way I do.  It is not a racial thing in the least little bit.  When we think about Obama, skin color doesn't enter the mental concept of him to us.  

    What does enter is a mystery wrapped in an enigma: Who put him up to this when he's so unready?  What does he stand for?  (apparently, nothing)  Why is he willing to accept stuff that doesn't belong to him, like delegates that were earned by his opponent?  Why does it feel like someone is trying to sell me something I don't want to buy?  

    The racial thing might be there with primarily GOP voters but those of us who will never, ever vote for him who are Democrats or former Democrats, look at him as the incarnation of a new Democratic party that resembles the country club Republicans who got kicked out of the old Republican party.  I don't want anything to do with this manifestation.  
    That's not racial.  That's just running from something really wicked.  

    Obama's only 'problem' with white voters is ... (4.42 / 7) (#8)
    by Ellie on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:10:21 AM EST
    ... typifying white voters who didn't support him as dumb racists and bitter old shrews. He and his campaign are apparently still willing to beat that drum whenever it's expedient to the ever important messaging.

    What BRILLIANT politicking or running to the center, or whatever the good marketing mouthfeel buzziness is that his slick framers want on this disgusting practice this week.

    I'm out of it. Not my horse, not my barn, not my dog, not my fight: I no longer have a four-legged critter in this race since the Oboiz' club handicapped the best qualified leader out of contention.

    Let them spin the air currents all they want and pretend they drive the masses. The only levers that will matter are the ones in the voters' booths and those don't pull themselves.

    This year, a standard white guy Democrat (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:29:25 AM EST
    (even an NE liberal like Chris Dodd, for example) would have Ohio and West Virginia in the bag. I'm still worried about Obama's ability to win Ohio. He can win the election without it, but the domino order of states going D makes that difficult.

    BTW, it speaks to how conservative (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:35:44 AM EST
    the white people are in Texas that Democrats aren't competitive there.

    Parent
    Looks like (none / 0) (#15)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:21:58 AM EST
    one of the states recently polled by SUSA is North Carolina.  McCain is up by 5, leading white voters 2:1.  With a deep demographic split like that, it doesn't seem likely NC will be part of the map shakeup.

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#25)
    by Salo on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:44:37 AM EST
    That's the gamble isn't it.

    Obama is a pop culture Icon now though, so maybe some of these calculations are void.

    Parent

    it's interesting (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by ccpup on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:34:22 AM EST
    you bring up the Pop Culture Icon aspect of this as that seems to be a major hurdle for many I know to take him seriously.

    They see him as a Media Creation and not as a man who's experienced enough to successfully run the United States.  Although they won't vote McCain -- or at least most of them won't --, they're certainly not voting for (or giving money to) Obama.

    Parent

    Wasn't it (none / 0) (#2)
    by Lahdee on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:33:18 AM EST
    Chuck Todd who suggested that the Vice Presidential picks would help emphasis the economy.
    MR. BROKAW:  But is Iraq going to be the fault line in the fall, or is it going to remain the economy, Chuck?

    MR. TODD:  I think it absolutely remains the economy, and I think it's possible we will see how both candidates use their vice presidential choices to make that emphasis.

    Bring 'em home on the economy as the Big Dog did in '92 and '96.

    Comparisons... (none / 0) (#18)
    by mike in dc on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 10:31:51 AM EST
    ...Carter had 47% of the white vote in 1976, Clinton 43% in 1996, Kerry 41% in 2004. I'm guessing Obama has a ceiling of about 45%, and a floor of about 36%, with white voters.  He's likely to get 95+% of the black vote, with an extra point or three gained there due to likely historic turnout.  He's also likely to get about 70-75% of the latino vote, and 60-75% of the asian vote.  If the net non-white vote is 30% of the total, then he starts with about 24-25% of the popular vote.  To get to 53%(the threshold at which it's nearly impossible for him to lose in the electoral college), Obama needs to have about 38-41% of the white vote.  At 36%(his floor), he'd wind up with about 49-50% of the popular vote, and a probable narrow loss in the EC.  At 45%(his ceiling), Obama would win in a landslide, with around 55-56% of the popular vote, the best result for a Democrat since LBJ in 1964, and the best result for a Democrat beating the incumbent party since 1932.  

    So, he's got work to do to narrow the gap with McCain, but at this point I'm cautiously optimistic about his chances to win big.

    Clinton won the white vote (3.66 / 3) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 11:44:44 AM EST
    in a 3 person race.

    Please stop the dishonest comparisons.

    Parent

    Would he have won... (none / 0) (#96)
    by mike in dc on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:52:07 PM EST
    ...a majority of the white vote in a 2 person race with Dole?  I have yet to see the evidence for that.

    Ugh.  Calling me dishonest over that?  Come on, you're better than that!

    Parent

    By the way... (none / 0) (#97)
    by mike in dc on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:56:02 PM EST
    ...a quick check of wiki, google, and Voter News Service indicates YOU are in error--Dole got 46% of the white vote in 1996 to Clinton's 43%.  

    You owe me an apology.

    Parent

    Hard to compare (none / 0) (#69)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:09:03 PM EST
    the races for President (GE) of the past when both candidates were white.


    Parent
    Hoover (none / 0) (#59)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:28:50 PM EST

    But he also has a problem making the sale on the economy

    Well both BHO and Herbert Hoover thought that raising taxes in tough economic times was a good plan.  It is tough to sell that which has a history of failure.

    What Obama's stadium says about economy (none / 0) (#63)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 12:47:47 PM EST
    I wonder if the people polled hear so much news about all the money being spent on his plane, on his stadium, and hear all the stories about the gobs and gobs of money he's raising over the Internet and conclude he's not in touch with their problems.

    Also that he wants to expand faith-based funding right now seems like odd timing. He proposed that, and lectured black fathers on responsibility, before he made a concrete connection with people suffering foreclosures, dealing with rising food prices, etc.

    Whereas McCain is running (what appears to be) a low-budget, thrifty campaign.

    Campaign Money (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by CST on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:13:46 PM EST
    Not according to CNN

    I don't know where you get these talking points.

    Parent

    It's the perception (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:38:53 PM EST
    McCain has a few TV ads running. Obama is traveling the world while his folks back here are planning a "green" convention complete with a football stadium acceptance speech that needs to bus 75,000 people across town. Doesn't matter that TV ads are expensive - they're the norm. But considering advertising during the Olympics? Whatever the reality of what things really cost, Obama looks like he's spending money hand over fist.

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    It's wrong (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by CST on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:45:01 PM EST
    And the fact that Obama is getting more bang for his buck should work in his favor not against him.

    Maybe that's the perception, but that's why it's good to be armed with the truth in order to change that perception.

    Parent

    Perception is reality in politics (none / 0) (#84)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:47:51 PM EST
    Like Karl Rove said, look at the TV with the sound turned down, to get an idea of what low-information voters are seeing.

    Parent
    Perceptions: McCain's campaign sure LOOKS cheap (none / 0) (#81)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:40:05 PM EST
    I'm talking about perceptions.

    I said Obama "has not made a concrete connection with people suffering foreclosures". That's not the same as saying he hasn't spoken about foreclosures.

    Parent

    And the worry that Obama should have (none / 0) (#88)
    by misspeach2008 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:01:26 PM EST
    is people walking away thinking, "If that's the way he's spending all that campaign money, what is he going to do with our tax money?" If McCain says that Obama is going to be a "tax and spend" Democrat, there is going to be a perception to build on that he just might be too free to tax people.

    Parent
    Yep - they know he'll raise taxes (none / 0) (#89)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:08:37 PM EST
    but they're not convinced he'll spend the extra money on what they need.

    Parent
    While what they SHOULD be thinking (none / 0) (#90)
    by CST on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:15:22 PM EST
    Is the opposite.  Also, Obama isn't spending tax-payer money on the election while McCain is, and poorly at that.

    And yes, perception is important.  Which is why I keep pointing out that the "perception" you are referring to is in fact completely false.

    Parent

    McCain is sticking to public spending limits (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by catfish on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:26:36 PM EST
    Taxpayer dollars funding your election means you are freed from sucking up to corporate shills to fund your campaign, and you will be freed from having to cater to their needs. That's what the system was designed for.

    Not painting McCain as a saint, just want to make sure people understand why taxpayer dollars fund campaigns at all.

    You need to look up the word "perception". It is not a synonym of the word "fact".

    Parent

    What really is "triangulating"? (none / 0) (#112)
    by progressiveinvolvement on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 09:22:53 PM EST
    Isn't that really just a label--from Dick Morris, no less--that means "playing both ends against the middle," and hasn't that been the nature of politics since time began?

    Yet, some parts of the left, those afflicted with CDS, often lift this up as some truly nefarious and traitorous act.  

    I will admit that Clinton formed two friendships I could never figure out--Dick Morris and Mark Penn.  Morris, in an act of self-promotion, labelled his strategy "triangulation," as if it were some brilliant new thing, when, really, it's just another name for same old, same old.