Someone Else To Cut Loose

Will John McCain demand the "cutting lose" of Maureen Dowd:

When McCain zoomed in the New Hampshire polls in 2000, W.’s supporters insinuated that McCain’s years in Vietcong dungeons, including two suicide attempts, left him with snakes in his head.

. . . McCain himself has joked: “It doesn’t take a lot of talent to get shot down. I was able to intercept a surface-to-air missile with my own airplane.”

Off with MoDo's head, John McCain? Actually, the interesting point here is that MoDo, who lives in the center of the Beltway Village, turned on McCain on this issue. As I said last night, McCain overplayed his hand. Even McCain loving Fred Hiatt has had enough. The Media looked silly, realized it and now has tired of the story - leaving McCain to have to do the whining himself. Which makes McCain look weak. The further this story goes now, the worse it becomes for McCain. This was always an Alpha Male issue (h/t Steve M) and whining looks weak. The question now is as Atrios put it, has John McCain stopped crying yet?

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Personally, I think Modo has gone over (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by zfran on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:59:46 AM EST
    the top here. Don't know what it's like to be a POW, but it takes strenghth to get through it. McCain brings strength to the fight, Obama brings only words and MoDo brings lunacy. Her piece, to me, has no depth and she should stay out of this fight!

    Think Maureen could (none / 0) (#18)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:44:42 AM EST
    last over 2000 days in a dungeon. I think you have two ways of dealing with that. You continue the rest of your life living in that dungeon or you try and put some humor to it. Maureen noted Obama can't have fun anymore and has to watch what he says and at the same time pointed to McCain's 'humor based' comments. I doubt if McCain will cut her loose as she seems like she could be very vendictive if challenged. Once again, it is the media in control.

    I think every sane person should (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:03:06 AM EST
    cut MoDo loose.

    Will John McCain demand it? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:05:54 AM EST
    I have a definite bias against MoDo so (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:26:39 AM EST
    that may be coloring my thinking but if I were McCain, I'd love for her to be perceived as an Obama supporter and have all of her typical nasty comments being hung at Obama's door.  

    She Confirmed It (none / 0) (#14)
    by JimWash08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:38:51 AM EST
    I'd love for her to be perceived as an Obama supporter

    And left all doubt on the wayside during the Primaries. She may try to cover it up with her feminine-trait allusions and barbs, but she always fails.


    MoDo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:10:09 AM EST
    is responsible for helping Bush. I don't care a whit what she says.

    I don't know if (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:09:37 AM EST
    the Average Voter is going to equate John McCain the POW with whining and crying.  It may be the theme the Left Blogs desperately and repeatedly try to push, but it will be a difficult image to cast for him considering what many know of that part of his history.

    Now Obama, on the other hand, spent the days after the last debate literally whining about how tough it had been.  That is still in some Voter's minds and will more than likely be resurrected by the GOP -- along with other things, no doubt -- via their friends in the Media eg. "remember, Obama wasn't very happy after the last debate" prior to and following the upcoming debates.

    I still think McCain's military service is the Third Rail in this race.  Obama should stay well away from it and focus on other issues.

    I do know (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:10:34 AM EST
    that you do not believe it.

    BTW, where do you find this "average voter?" there is no such animal.


    I see them on a daily basis, (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:00:29 AM EST
    BTD, and, no, they're not hanging out at TalkLeft or any other blog.  They're paying bills, taking kids to school, doing their best to fill up their gas tanks and seriously couldn't give one fig about the ridiculous smack-down between Clark and McCain.

    Many don't know much about Obama (other than his alleged ability to make a good speech), but they do know the POW history of McCain.  And, for many voters, I suspect it'll be better the Devil they know than the Devil they don't.  

    For Obama to futz with McCain's history in the service -- which automatically brings up his POW story -- is unbelievably stupid.  He should just concede that point and move on to gas prices, the economy, health care ... anything other than that.  He plays into McCain's perceived strength.  And there is no way in H-E-double hockey sticks he can compete with that.  Only his arrogance and political tone-deafness would convince him he should even try.


    And the average voters is what? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:29:52 PM EST
    A white male 45, owns a home, bla  bla?

    you sound like Mark Penn.

    There is no such thing as an average voter. PEriod.


    not sure why (none / 0) (#34)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:56:35 PM EST
    you feel the need to be rude about this, but I have neither the time nor inclination to care about the "why"s of your response.

    But for those who might have an interest, let me offer this:  

    For most people, politics is summed up by what you hear at the water cooler.  So, this current incident would go something like:  Obama thinks McCain's history as a POW doesn't matter in this race.

    Now, is that accurate?  No, of course not.  But many aren't going to give a rat's a** about the details.  Did Obama say that?  Nope, but another Dem did and, when it's Us vs. Them, what a Dem who may or may be actually speaking FOR Obama says is attributed rightly or wrongly to his campaign.  And is that what was actually said?  Well, no again.  

    But those at the water cooler won't care about the fine points of the conversation.  All they'll hear is "Obama said McCain's POW experience means nothing".  And, knowing what they know of McCain's POW history -- irrespective of anything else (as I believe most people only know OF his POW experience and little else) --, they may feel Obama was either out-of-line or stupid for "saying" what he "said".

    The Obama Camp then has the frustrating job of re-educating Voters about what was actually said and by whom.   And by then the Voter has already formed an opinion about what happened.  The prism through which they see the incident is already skewed.  

    In other words, score one for McCain.

    Feel free to disagree, BTD, but let's at least try to be civil about it.  I enjoy TalkLeft and would hate to feel unwelcome due to someone else's anger or frustration directed at me.

    (and the Mark Penn quip was the lowest of low blows, guy)  LOL


    You answer with a nonsequitor (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:03:12 PM EST
    and a whine.

    You do not answer the question on WHY you think you know about "average voters?"

    Just consider your silly "water cooler" line. Do you REALLY know anoyne who hangs around a water cooler? I never knew anyone.

    so please, stop with the platitudes. I was treating you in serious fashion. If you just want to talk nonsense, then let me know next time.


    believe it or not (none / 0) (#39)
    by ccpup on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 08:46:13 PM EST
    yes, I DO know people who hang around a water cooler.  They may not exist in YOUR world, but they exist and they talk.  And, no, they have neither the time nor inclination to follow your Big Thoughts on TalkLeft.  In fact, I don't think they give a sh*t what you or I think.

    As for the whine?  No response necessary.

    I had a great deal of respect for you, BTD.  Your even-handed Threads were one of the reasons I continued visiting TalkLeft.  But tonight you're showing yourself to be a major league a**hole and I'm not quite sure why.

    Perhaps you need to take the night off and settle down?  In any case, I'm through with TalkLeft for awhile.  I get enough ridiculous aggravation in life.  No need to get more from a silly blogger.


    i happen to be surrounded by them right now (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ellie on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:50:08 AM EST
    ... for the kickoff of summer holidays. Obama started this whole 'fight' by being miffed that Sens Clinton and McCain perceived each other and not Obama as 'ready to serve on day one'.

    The easiest tendency among those not inclined to hash details about this is that yes, alone the attribute of being shot down does not qualify one for CinC, but then to add a however.

    The focus shift will always be to McCain's character, even in defending himself / his honor of service here. No matter the McCain "loss", it just won't get down to an Obama "win".

    The more detail-oriented voters who do want to untangle the mess will return to the beginning and note mainly that Obama started this.

    Obama supporters are already triumphal about this but that too divides in ordinary voter schmoes' heads wiseass college kids sneering as opposed to their peers fighting in Iraq -- not statistical groups borne out by fact, but visuals in the mind's eye.

    The swiftboating of Kerry took months and the attack machine happily complied to keep it that way, even if they lost the argument based on logic, because it was vets vs. vet.

    If Obama's intention is to replicate that, he will not come out the winner; it will always be true that he started this dumb fight and walked away while it dragged on.


    No you are not surrounded by them (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:28:59 PM EST
    you THINK they are average voters. there is no such thing. you are surrounded by a group of voters who YOU think are "average" whatever that means.

    If my relatives are imaginary, why are these ... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ellie on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:07:59 PM EST
    ... ethereal spirits eating me out of ACTUAL house and home?

    The hamburger, weenie, steak and veggieburger bill alone has compelled my eyebrows to fly off my face and wing their way into the horizon, possibly never to return.

    I love the fam but man can they sock it away.


    They are not average (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:03:51 PM EST
    that is the imaginary part. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    Simple answers to simple questions (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ellie on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:39:55 PM EST

    Nice (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:48:06 PM EST
    Honesty, and quite refreshing. It suits you, imo.

    Ha. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:35:54 PM EST
    the point at which (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:14:26 AM EST
    Dowd aligns herself with obama in this issue is a point at which this dustup starts having an adverse effect on this Clinton supporter.

    Clark's a military guy.  To see him smeared as someone who disrespects military service took precedence for a moment over salient and still very real bitterness.

    But if dowd wants to jump in here and start taking sides with obama over mccain, that's only going to make me sympathize with mccain.

    Simply because it is my opinion here that Clarks reputation has nil importance to her compared to her self promoting herself as the ugly loathsome person she is.

    I dunno... (none / 0) (#10)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:23:27 AM EST
    bushs support for mccain turns my stomach more.

    Lol (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:29:17 AM EST
    choosing between my contempt for modo and my contempt for bush is a false choice.  I can do both.

    Now if it comes down to a set of priorities ....  Let's just day as far as 1999 is concerned one is free to say "no modo, no bush, gore."


    Yeah... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:43:44 AM EST
    as far as priorities go its an easy choice for me.  I just ask myself whos is more responsible for 4000+ American soldiers deaths?  The answer is pretty clear.

    yes (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:50:21 AM EST
    I tend to reject people who try to push responsibilty for the war onto other people besides bush.

    That might explain why I've rejected obama.


    Yeah... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:54:09 AM EST
    I tend to reject people who openly embrace bushs Iraq war.

    That might explain why I've rejected McSame.


    I reject mccain (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:56:03 AM EST
    ........ too.

    Great! We have no quarrel then! (none / 0) (#23)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:59:43 AM EST
    I don't think the battle (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:04:39 AM EST
    is really that mccain merits rejection.

    The battle is whether or not obama does.

    But we may be in agreement there as far as I know.


    I'll say this... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:59:21 AM EST
    Im a HRC supporter and a republican hater.  Thats about sums it up.

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:14:52 AM EST
    I called my dad the veteran to see what he thought of this issue.  He kept referring to Wes Clark as "General Westmoreland."  Sigh.

    What was interesting is that while he didn't seem to have a problem with what Clark had actually said, he was upset that people were trying to knock McCain for having appeared in a propaganda film while in captivity.  I had to explain to him that that wasn't anything the Obama campaign had brought up, but was simply an allegation being made by random people on the Internet.

    I hate to disagree with TINS, who thinks we need more diaries accusing McCain of disloyalty, but when the guy on the street is hearing about John Aravosis' offensive posts and getting them mixed up with Clark's inoffensive comments, that can't be good.

    We gain zero from making outrageous allegations against McCain on the blogs, whether they're true or not.  There's more than one rabid pro-Obama type on this blog who refuses to understand that.

    you never want (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:43:24 AM EST
    John Aravosis on your side imo.

    But can you believe (none / 0) (#28)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:31:11 AM EST
    that TINS would argue that we need more bloggers calling McCain disloyal, like Aravosis did?  That doing so would somehow help Obama by moving the "Overton Window"?

    Rhetorical question, obviously.  Of course you can believe it.

    I checked in with that diary when it had about 100 comments, btw.  Not one person saying hey, maybe accusing McCain of disloyalty is a bit much.


    If people start thinking (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:37:09 AM EST
    that McCain is Westmoreland, well, now we're getting somewhere!

    media story? (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Yotin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:17:54 AM EST
    why do the media think that it's them that determine what story stays on people's minds? have they been checking the the web?

    On any given day when McCain looks (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 09:44:37 AM EST
    weak, he probably still looks stronger than Obama if service to the country is at the core of the discussion; there are a lot of people who believe McCain has the right to whine a little when this aspect of his history is perceived to be under some kind of attack - even if that attack is one that is being manufactured out of nothing.

    And I would submit that the media is moving on because they tend to have the attention span of the average flea, and with both candidates saying stupid things on a daily basis, there is no shortage of material to blow out of proportion.

    It was Clark who made the difference this time. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by joanneleon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:16:14 AM EST
    He didn't do the standard apology, which is what the  media expected.  That changed the whole dynamic of this situation.  Then everyone was off script, including McCain.  Plus, veterans jumped in immediately to defend Clark.  So the whole thing didn't play out as it was supposed to, and Clark was the one who set that in motion.

    The media manipulates well, but they can also be manipulated.  

    Is Maureen Dowd anyone's friend? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by joanneleon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:33:43 AM EST
    She's one of the strangest media figures I've ever seen.  I think she's a lot like the print version of a shock jock.  

    The best thing that both parties could do would be to ignore her.

    Modo isn't an adviser to the Obama campaign (none / 0) (#27)
    by daryl herbert on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:17:06 AM EST
    Therefore, I don't think McCain will call for her to be "cut loose."

    That's just me going way out on a limb.

    Gen. Clark is an adviser to the Obama campaign.  If he's such a great guy, why won't Obama stick up for him?  All Obama is willing to say is:

    "I guess my question is why, given all the vast numbers of things that we've got to work on, that that would be a top priority of mine?"

    Obviously, McCain struck a nerve.  Obama is too busy spinning and retreating in order to hit back, or use this to his advantage.