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Obama Says No To Religious Discrimination

Yesterday, the AP erroneously reported that Barack Obama would permit faith based discrimination in hiring with non-taxpayers funds for organizations that would participate in his faith based initiative. Subsequently, the NYTimes erroneously reported that there was a legal basis for this position based on theDale Boy Scouts case. Apparently, the Obama campaign made clear that Obama says no to faith based discrimination:

Mr. Obama’s position that religious organizations would not be able to consider religion in their hiring for such programs would constitute a deal-breaker for many evangelicals, said several evangelical leaders, who represent a political constituency Mr. Obama has been trying to court. “For those of who us who believe in protecting the integrity of our religious institutions, this is a fundamental right,” said Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs for the National Association of Evangelicals. “He’s rolling back the Bush protections. That’s extremely disappointing.”

(Emphasis supplied.) To me, that is extremely heartening. Indeed, it would have been a deal breaker for me if Obama endorsed religious discrimination. I am happy to see that Obama opposes and will not countenance religious discrimination. John McCain endorses religious discrimination -- "Mr. McCain “disagrees with Senator Obama that hiring at faith-based groups should be subject to government oversight.” McCain is simply not an option for those voters who believe in separation of church and state.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

< Static Race: Obama By 5 | Training Interrogators to Produce False Confessions >
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  • Display: Sort:
    On the legal issue I discussed yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:37:10 AM EST
    the Obama campaign understands the law perfectly, as opposed to the NYTimes:

    Martha Minnow, a professor of law at Harvard University who has written about religion-based initiatives and has advised the Obama campaign on the issue, said Mr. Obama would move to "return the law to what it was before the current administration," in other words barring the consideration of religion in hiring decisions for such programs that receive federal financing.

    "I don't think there's anything too controversial about that," said. "Any religious organization that does not want to comply with that requirement simply doesn't have to take the money."

    Even Chief Justice John Roberts must agree with that.

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:40:07 AM EST
    I'm not sure I trust an article that can't even get Martha Minow's name right.

    IMO the confusion on this issue has not been resolved yet.  There's a little too much gamesmanship in sending out an anonymous spokesman to explain your policy, and then distancing yourself from the controversial part once it's out there.

    [ Parent ]

    And the Obama war room (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:50:16 AM EST
    ought to have had a same-day answer, not a next-day answer, if it didn't want this, too, to be read both ways.  Or the Obama campaign is not coordinated.  Either way, it raises questions.

    And that every speech seems to raise questions may make it more work to figure out than some voters want to invest.

    [ Parent ]

    To be read both ways - an advantage? (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by catfish on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:51:57 AM EST
    Maybe they wanted the ambiguity.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm guessing they did. (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:53:03 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Someone in the Obama camp did (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:00:41 AM EST
    As you can see from the changed quotes in the story - David Kuo in particular has flipped flopped.

    [ Parent ]
    Kuo reviewed the policy (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:32:25 AM EST
    for Obama, which is odd enough, as Kuo was Bush's guy on this.

    But Kuo reviewed it and didn't know what it meant?

    I gotta figure this out.  It's too WORM-y.

    [ Parent ]

    Kuo was publicly dissatisfied with (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:40:31 PM EST
    Bush's failure to follow through.  He must know all the ins and outs of faith-based initiatives.

    [ Parent ]
    Apparently what he knew (none / 0) (#115)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:09:20 PM EST
    when he reviewed it before yesterday is not what he knows now that he reviewed it yesterday or today.

    WORM.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah Obama love ambiguity (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by talex on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:57:32 AM EST
    And so does the public. That is why he has that (not so)huge 5 point lead!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, that makes some sense (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by anydemwilldo on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:58:08 AM EST
    Or at least, they wanted to keep the "deal breaker" stuff out of the  news for one cycle.  Evangelical leaders, clearly, would never have been on board with a democrat anyway.  But avoiding any details means that they had to wait a day before coming up with anything specific to which they could object.

    Evangelical voters, on the other hand, are a lot more forgiving.  Some of them will follow the megachurches, but others might be swayed.  I'm starting to think this scheme might be better politics than any of us expected: note that the McCain campaign still has no answer.  Coverage of that side has focused on (1) McCain "doesn't like to talk about religion" and (2) is currently ignoring domestic issues and isn't even in the country right now.  Couple that with the Obama ads running on christian radio right now, and this might actually work...

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. Either way, it raises questions (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    and that may work with some voters, sure.

    Others, not so much -- much as we might wish that every voter work hard to be a high-info voter.  Maybe I talk with too many would-be new voters who end up just opting out from confusion.

    [ Parent ]

    "Return the law" (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by MsExPat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:43:50 AM EST
    to what it was before the current administration is great. Glad to hear that Obama's position is not the un-Constitutional nightmare we feared it was yesterday.

    But I would be MUCH happier to hear that Obama wants to return the POLICY to what it was before the current administration.

    In other words, no taxpayer money for "faith-based" social programs. And certainly no government council institutionalizing them.

    Bill Clinton allowed federal money (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Pegasus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:51:33 AM EST
    to go to faith-based social work for the latter half of his term, in point of fact.

    [ Parent ]
    But the '90s were bad (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:56:55 AM EST
    and the president then was all to blame.  I know I heard that somewhere.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by ineedalife on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:58:33 AM EST
    Obama cannot change laws but he can change policy. Saying "change the law" puts the ball in Congress' court, complete with Republican filibustering. It makes it subject to negotiation. Obama should be talking about what he is going to do if he gets elected President, not his legislative goals when he goes back to the Senate.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmm can former pres hold senate positions? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Thanin on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:10:45 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Pegasus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:12:14 AM EST
    Former presidents are citizens, and can run for whatever they want.  JQ Adams, IIRC, went to the House after being president.

    [ Parent ]
    ANd (none / 0) (#132)
    by tek on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:39:08 PM EST
    as president he could issue Executive Orders as Bush did.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by ks on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:06:26 AM EST
    Obama's playing the appeal to everybody game.  He's proposing an expansion of the "faith based" programs in order to appeal to the evangelicals and religious organizations while throwing liberal civil libertains a bone by saying that those organization's can't discriminate by hiring only within their religious group which is a change from Bush's current program which allows them to "consider" religious affiliation when hiring.  

    The practical problem is that while it's good that it will be on the books, it's very unlikely that the proposed prohibition will be enforced in any real manner, and as others have pointed out here in other threads on this subject, religious organizations have several ways of getting around the prohibition.

    The real issue is what MsExPat points out.  The bigger problem is the bad policy itself and not returning the bad policy to the law which is helpful but begs the overall problem.  

    [ Parent ]

    Problem with this policy is that (none / 0) (#144)
    by The Realist on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:16:28 PM EST
    Federal non-discrimination act excludes LGBT's. The only bone he's throwing the LGBT community is "F" you with a pretty,big, red bow tied around it.

    [ Parent ]
    Policy for 40 years (none / 0) (#114)
    by Tom Hilton on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:09:19 PM EST
    The Great Society relied extensively on community-level organizations, including churches and church-affiliated groups; the Federal government has been funding religious organizations ever since.  The Bush difference was removing Federal standards from the funding; Obama would put those back.  This isn't anything new.  

    [ Parent ]
    Loophole (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:44:52 AM EST
    If it's true that the law applies to orgs with 15 or more employees, this is easy to work around.  We have empty public schools of which charter schools are renting space.  An org just needs to have separate schools for grades (or some other criteria) or combine with other orgs and it would be easy to get around this in CA.  Our new law of requiring a credentialed teacher...? I am curious if it requires a full-time teacher.

    I support quality public education so I tend to look at this policy through my narrow bias.

    Exactly how schools and other orgs (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:54:56 AM EST
    get around it already in my state -- several small "schools" under one roof, with one "principal" pocketing the fed funds as the owner but not paying (non-certified) teachers, not buying books for students, etc.

    I will not vote for vouchers.  Or for continuance of any other end-arounds the separation of church and state.  In addition to principles, the pragmatic result is too often poor results plus a bankrupting of public services to the poor.

    [ Parent ]

    Nothing New (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:05:19 AM EST
    Title VII was written in 1964, an employer is defined as someone who has 15 or more employees that work full time for at least 20 weeks of the year.....

    [ Parent ]
    Religious organizations and (none / 0) (#137)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    religious schools are exempt from discrimination based on religion.

    See the 'EXEMPTION' section in the link.

    Title VII alone doesn't address the issue of federal funding to one program within a religious organization with respect to discrimination in employment.  (I imagine there's plenty of case law and regs that do, and, as someone said yesterday, there are state and local laws that apply).

    But even assuming Obama's proposal is that no federal funds go to a specific program that discriminates in employment, there's still the fact that federal $ going to a church's nondiscriminatory program offsets the funds needed for discriminatory parts.

    And that still bothers me.  I don't care whether either of the Clintons supported it.

    The offset argument from the other side has long been successful in denying federal funds to Planned Parenthood, and hospitals and clinics, etc. etc.

    When Obama promises a reproductive health based initiative to give federal funds to support PP et  al, then maybe I'll reconsider my objection.  Maybe.

    Cream's point about the shell games with accounting is an excellent one, but I don't even have to go there.

    [ Parent ]

    I Agree (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:18:45 PM EST
    About federal funds being given to religious organizations who can hire based on religious criteria. As far as I can tell it has been going on since 1996. I think Clinton vetoed Charitable Choice two or three times before signing it into law, but it was very popular, even Wellstone voted for it.

    And the fact that Hillary was 100% behind it does not make it any more palatable to me either.

    I am glad that Obama has cleared up his position and stood up against an unconstitutional practice that has been going on for the last 12 years that had wide bipartisan support. Seems like a hat tip to progressives to me, and something to be celebrated.

    [ Parent ]

    I would only be delighted (none / 0) (#169)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    if he stopped the program altogether.

    [ Parent ]
    You Mean With A Signing Statement? (none / 0) (#171)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:02:16 PM EST
    Or executive order? It is a law passed by congress, I do not think that the president can just erase it.

    [ Parent ]
    Trust (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by nellre on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:51:29 AM EST
    Obama does not have my trust. His pandering to the religious right has unnerved me.
    The AP story was a total invention? I don't think so.

    I do not want to hear these words from my President to be:

    While I could sit in church and pray all I want, I wouldn't be fulfilling God's will unless I went out and did the Lord's work," he declared.

    I do not want basic human services managed and delivered by organized religion. I do not want my government giving organized religion money.

    I've often though Bush was the emperor with no clothes. Obama seems to be ready to take over that role.


    heh (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:57:44 AM EST
    I do not want basic human services managed and delivered by organized religion. I do not want my government giving organized religion money.

     That ship sailed about a decade ago, unfortunately.  As did constitutional arguments against it.

     Oh, and Democratic will, as well.

    [ Parent ]

    Decade? (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by anydemwilldo on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:01:32 AM EST
    Try a dozen centuries or so.  Ministering to the poor is a central tenet of christianity (and a rather pleasing one, even to this atheist's eyes).  This country is a little weird in that they've never been able to use government funds to do it, but church-run charities are far older than america is.

    [ Parent ]
    Except it isn't (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:09:12 AM EST
    We're talking about government funding, here, which presents all sorts of bad entanglement issues.  There was a reason the Salvation Army was pushing for a special status when it received the funds....one of the forgotten scandals of the pre-9/11 Bush administration.  

     One of the many reasons vouchers are problematic as well (and Gore flipped on that one quite a bit in 2000).

     Fact is, though, that the Democrats have ceded quite a bit of ground on this point.  There were always bound to be problems with this.  

    [ Parent ]

    Not just christianity (none / 0) (#35)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:13:18 AM EST
    also tenet of every major organized religion, right?

    [ Parent ]
    The church WAS the government (none / 0) (#45)
    by dianem on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:25:33 AM EST
    For a dozen or so centuries, the church and the government shared power. The United States was designed to break that mold, which is why we have so many constitutional protections about separation of church and state. The tradition of church and state sharing power is very old, but that doesn't make it right for us.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:34:44 AM EST
    The actual history is a bit more complicated.  The federal government was areligious to the core...and the Founders were heathens by modern evangelical and fundamentalist standards (Remember when Ralph Reed touted Jefferson's social gospel...devoid of miracles, as it were? too funny).  But religious tests in state government were hardly unheard of.  

     Actually, I've always thought that the church state divide in the US prevented us from going down the path of our Western cousins.  Religious affiliation is absurdly high in comparison to, you know, the bulk of our allies...who, surprise surprise, tend to have state-sanctioned churches.  

    [ Parent ]

    Greenwald said it still funds discrimination (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by catfish on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    it funds institutions who discriminate. How is oversight achieved here? Do auditors check that the funds you received are spent on the right activities?

    Why must this program be expanded?

    I hate this whole thing. As somebody else said, it's very easy to convert somebody who is starving. "I believe, now give me some soup."

    [ Parent ]

    Greenwald and I (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:02:55 AM EST
    were questioning the AP report.

    Today the answer is clear - an on the record quote from an Obama advisor - Minow.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not clear to me. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:12:36 AM EST
    I don't know the ins and outs of the law (or whatever regulations govern this issue) as it existed before Bush and after Bush, but a reasonable reading of the article you linked is that discrimination will be barred in the federally funded program only, not the other activities of the religious organization that's getting the money.

    Although that doesn't sound unreasonable to me, I understood your original position to be that recipients of federal money must not be allowed to discriminate even in their non-federally funded activities.

    [ Parent ]

    The organization receiving a federal contract (none / 0) (#38)
    by Pegasus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:16:48 AM EST
    must, in my understanding of the policy, be separately incorporated -- separate and independent budget, staff, etc. -- from any organization that uses religious considerations in hiring.

    I think Greenwald et al were afraid that wouldn't be the case, and now it's been clarified.

    [ Parent ]

    Which is why religious organizations (none / 0) (#63)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:56:00 AM EST
    put lawyers on their boards to do these sorts of separate incorporations -- of foundations and the like -- for free.

    Boards look for lawyers and PR pros to get lots of pro bono work as well as advice on how to get around the law and make it look good. Speaking as one who served on many a board and had to repeatedly refuse to turn pigs' ears into silk purses, until it just got too tiresome to be used and abused.

    [ Parent ]

    Well it's not so clear (none / 0) (#46)
    by talex on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:28:08 AM EST
    As anyone who thinks about it can see, and as Greenwald pointed out late yesterday the churches can still discriminate in hiring in non-federal funded activities.

    So what happens when a small church use people hired based on religion as regular staff and then use those people in the activities that are federally funded? Discrimination that is federally funded.

    What happens when funds are co-mingled? Discrimination that is federally funded.

    To pretend that Obama does not know, wink wink - nod nod, that things like this will not be going on is well you know.

    As an aside:

    "McCain is simply not an option for those voters who believe in separation of church and state." - BTD

    Although I agree in not federally funding activities that hire based on religion - that is a big stretch to suggest to do other wise violates the separation of church and state don't you think. It's not exactly The Church of England you know.

    [ Parent ]

    Conservatives (none / 0) (#112)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:06:11 PM EST
    may fear the opposite:  an overreaching Federal government interferring in hiring practices having nothing to do with programs that receive federal funds....

    One of the more interesting arguments I have heard against gay marriage involves a rather paranoid version of the slippery slope argument.  If gay marriage is allowed, then the federal government may impose sanctions on those entities that do not recognize them, and withhold federal benefits....or even refuse to let religious groups that do not recognize gay marriage reserve spots in parks for religious activities, just the way it happened to the Boy Scouts....The federal government will require churches to perform gay marriages....And, so the thinking goes...

    A distinction can be made between running soup kitchens and running Sunday School classes. The details can be worked out.  

    [ Parent ]

    If it's clear that this does not expand (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:37:43 AM EST
    beyond the legal limits, it still doesn't reassure me -- since it's still an expansion of public funds, my money, for religious organizations.

    That still feels wrong, even if lawyers say it's okay.  Some lawyers, I gather, since lawyers can be found to side with Bush on anything.  See my USAA.

    [ Parent ]

    Not just trust (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:23:03 AM EST
    I want separation of church and state also.  I am p!ssed that my tax dollars will go to churces who give multi-million dollar homes for 'retired' pastors as an appreciation for their service.

    This move was to be expected given the 3-5 million in earmark requests for religious programs and schools by Obama.

    The Obama campaign always reminded me of Bush.

    [ Parent ]

    Bush was (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 05:09:36 PM EST
    the clothes with no emperor.

    [ Parent ]
    obama is way to willing to take over the (4.25 / 4) (#23)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:01:05 AM EST
    "emperor has no clothes" role....and this faith based program is just a continuation of another gwb debacle.  When people compare obama to gwb, it is a legitimate comparison.

    [ Parent ]
    It's not a GWB program, originally. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Pegasus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    Faith-based initiatives originated with Bill Clinton in 1996.  Bush stripped out most of the 1st Amendment protections, and Obama seems to want to restore them.  Which is why this is a "deal-breaker" for the hard evangelical right.

    [ Parent ]
    Originated with Sen. John Ashcroft (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:04:02 PM EST
    would more accurate, I think...tacked on as an amendment to Welfare Reform Act of 1996 by Ashcroft, and signed into law by Clinton.

    Welfare Reform Act and Ashcroft Amendment (1996)
    The 1996 Welfare Reform Act, signed by President Clinton, enabled some houses of worship to receive tax dollars for delivery of social services, due to an amendment sponsored by then Senator, now Attorney General, John Ashcroft. Prior to that year, government funds could go to religious groups for social services, but the institutions were required to have separate, secular nonprofit entities to administer the programs. With the "charitable choice" provision of the 1996 act, religious charities were permitted to compete for government welfare dollars.

    Some groups fear that the ramifications of adding religious groups to the federal welfare equation are far-reaching. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force complains that the 1996 Welfare Act also "allowed religious institutions to discriminate in their hiring practices on the basis of religious belief, gender, race and ethnicity, and other factors. Moreover, the 1996 law eliminated safeguards that were intended to prevent recipients from being subjected to unwanted proselytizing, the display of large religious icons in areas where services were provided and other forms of captive-audience religious expression."

    NOW/PBS

    [ Parent ]

    Right -- I didn't mean to imply (none / 0) (#113)
    by Pegasus on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:09:07 PM EST
    that it was Clinton's idea.  But it originated during his presidency, and he signed off on it.  And Gore embraced the concept in 2000.  So it's unfair (not to mention incorrect) to associate it solely with Bush II.

    [ Parent ]
    In Fact (none / 0) (#139)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:00:01 PM EST
    Hillary was also 100% behind faith based initiatives, and I do believe that they were allowed to hire whoever they wanted, seemingly in contravention to Title VII.

    Good that Obama is reversing this practice.

    [ Parent ]

    trudat (none / 0) (#145)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:17:38 PM EST
    re HRC's support of FBI...not so sure whether hiring practices would be as you say re candidate Clinton's positions.

    Burns Strider, Sen. Hillary Clinton's director of faith-based outreach, said that if she were elected, Clinton would continue funding faith-based organizations, but would seek to maintain an appropriate boundary between church and state.


    Christianity Today


    [ Parent ]
    aarrgghh (none / 0) (#148)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:19:58 PM EST
    meant to add.....I agree with previous poster, don't care if Clinton (either one)is for this...I'm not. But then again, neither Clinton is running at this time.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes That Is What Obama Said Too (none / 0) (#159)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:45:54 PM EST
    But it allowed business as usual, which means that according to

    the charitable choice law is its explicit provision that accepting government funds does not entail loss of a religious organization's right to choose to hire staff who share its religious beliefs.

    link

    My understanding is that Obama is now taking the bold step of reversing this aspect of the Charitable Choice law.

    [ Parent ]

    good link - thanks (none / 0) (#160)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:58:52 PM EST
    Still, my understanding is that the Bush administration were the ones to use and abuse all this....If Sen. Obama wants to reverse those abuses, whether by statutory or in practice, more power to him.

    On the other hand, let's just get rid of FBI altogether, in my book.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes Bush Played Dirty (none / 0) (#163)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 03:14:07 PM EST
    Which should come as no surprise. I think it had more to do with how he funneled the $$ to corrupt Mega churches that returned GOP votes as quid pro quo.

    But as I understand it the 1996 law and three other ones Clinton signed after that, provided a loophole for title VII.

    Many, I guess including Wellstone, saw that most of good work helping the poor was done by the small religious organizations across america, and that was a good thing. The gift to them was to allow them to hire people based on religion who would do the federally funded charity work. There was certainly some grey area in title VII. As someone pointed out in the other thread, a janitor, bookkeeper, etc did not have to share the faith, but some could be hired based on religion, clergy for example.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:22:16 PM EST
    there's really not anything wrong with what he said but once again it gets down to the tone. It always comes off as sanctimonious.

    [ Parent ]
    Not New At All (none / 0) (#91)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:30:44 PM EST
    It's been happening in my area for at least a hundred years.

    Aside from hospitals, nursing homes, and other kinds of social services we have today, religious organizations here used to operate orphanages and minimum security correctional facilities--'reformatories' for women and underage offenders, financed by the churches and the local, county, state and federal governments.

    [ Parent ]

    Can Atheists apply for these funds? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by catfish on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:14:54 AM EST
    Just curious.

    No, that's the Faithless Based Initiative. (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    Different program entirely.

    [ Parent ]
    We need a Misplaced Faith Initiative (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:39:32 AM EST
    for all the folks who may have buyers' remorse about voting for Bush.  Or others.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL I predict a flood of (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:17:51 PM EST
    applicants for MFI funding.  Slogan:  We're Under the Bus, Are You?

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:35:35 PM EST
    His proposal is called the "Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships."

    The emphasis in the media coverage has been on the faith based element, but in describing it Obama said:

    "I still believe it's a good idea to have a partnership between the White House and grass-roots groups, both faith-based and secular."

    [ Parent ]

    I don't get this part: (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:17:23 AM EST
    from the cited Times article:

    In one example of how he would use the approach to carry out a policy goal, Mr. Obama proposed $500 million per year to provide summer education for one million poor children, with a goal of closing the achievement gaps between wealthy students and poorer ones. The campaign did not provide a cost proposal for the full program, but said the educational piece could be financed by reducing the growth in the federal travel budget and streamlining the management of surplus government property.

    Provide summer education through public schools, or through churches?  How will a parocial school, of any faith, run a summer school, and not teach religion? Why not fund public school programs etc.?

    Why not.... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:34:38 AM EST
    because you wouldn't be able to support your church industry nor sell off govt property to your friends.  This makes no sense for separtion of church and state nor fiscally when a financial incentive must be built in to 'encourage' the org to take on the program.  Also, I wonder if the surplus property includes.... you know... land and who is in line to get those deals.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes there are a lot of existing Public Schools (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:39:29 AM EST
    that could be funded to provide this program. No need at all to get religion involved.

    [ Parent ]
    No Need Except (none / 0) (#98)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:41:02 PM EST
    there are also pre-existing effective programs that are operated by religious organizations.

    If they are not using the program to promote religion, why not provide some public funding to help continue their good work?

    And there are some places where these kinds of programs exist because of deficits in the public system.

    It seems to me a win/win to reward existing successful programs whether public or privately managed.

    [ Parent ]

    If they are already running the programs (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:05:15 PM EST
    as part of their religious charitable activities, why give them government money at all? Doing "good works" is part of their religion and there is no need for them to be turned into "for profit" centers. Why not use government money to fix the deficits in the public system for those who do not want to participate in a religious sponsored service or where no service is available at all?

    [ Parent ]
    Gotta Admit I'm A Little Cynical (none / 0) (#120)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:20:42 PM EST
    about this.

    I'm all for fixing the deficits in the public systems and even in funding new initiatives in the public sphere to address problems which are already being effectively handled by private (and yes, sometimes religious run). To me, a collaboration is the best of all worlds.

    Something that has really outraged me, on a local level though, has been to see mismanaged public institutions which are not getting results sucking up all the tax dollars year after inept year while underfunded private community programs that are working, struggle and (often) die for lack of a few paltry bucks.

    I don't mean this to be a generalization. There are great public services and there are private or religious based ones that don't pull their weight. Would like to see a working collaboration.


    [ Parent ]

    Money is always going to be wasted (none / 0) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:36:40 PM EST
    if no oversight is done or if there is no accountability based on results. I would prefer to fix public institutions rather than outsource the money to religious entities that may have the same problems. There is also IMO an alternative in many cases to giving money directly to a religious organization.

    I have no problem with allowing an individual the choice on where to get various services that could be paid for by taxpayer money. Drug rehab, for example, paid for or subsidized by the taxpayer could allow the choice of going to a religious based provider providing they met the same criteria as a secular one. Any number of services could be handled in this manner which could help the smaller community programs. If they are struggling to survive now doesn't that speak to the fact that they are not the ones getting taxpayer funds.

    A lot of the faith based money is now going to big box, cash rich churches or distributed based on politician patronage in exchange for politician support.


    [ Parent ]

    As You And I Engage On These Issues (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 04:04:34 PM EST
    on this thread and the other, I get the feeling we may disagree but also that we aren't far apart.

    I confess(!) I'm not well informed about where the federal money goes (i.e. big box churches etc.) I'd expect that in the last seven and a half years a lot or most of it has gone to places I wouldn't approve of. That's another discussion.

    I appreciate your point of view.

    [ Parent ]

    if there is a pre-existing program (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by TimNCGuy on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    that a faith based org runs, then providing them with fed funds can very easily be turned into fed funds for their religious activities as well.

    If this faith based org currently spends 50% of it's budget on promoting religionn and the other 50% on non-religious social programs, then they get fed funds for their social programs, it just allows them to transfer that portio of their budget back to religious activities that was replaced by fed funds.

    So, if the org didn't INCREASE their social program by the amount of the fed funds, the govt just helped them increase the funding of their religious activites.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:18:18 AM EST
    Until the "fact sheet" that the AP based their article on comes out, I will believe that Obama deliberately wanted to be on every side of this issue.  Therefore, you can't come to any conclusion about what the Obama campaign will do based on statements made one day that contradict statements made on a different day.

    This is yet another Obama inkblot, just as with many, many other Obama inkblots, where whatever you believe, there's a piece of that in his policy for you.  

    The ambiguity is deliberate.  I only hope others get as sick of it as I did early on in his campaign.

    And BTW, regardless, extending "faith based" programs in any way is BAD, really, really BAD policy. I can't believe Democrats defend something that was so objectionable when Bush did it.

    It is a return to the status quo pre-Bush (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by SpinDoctor on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:57:19 AM EST
    Obama's position mirrors that of Bill Clinton's administration.  All he is doing is reversing the policies of Bush and restoring the faith based program polices to those initiated by Bill Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    But with even more funding (none / 0) (#71)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:59:58 AM EST
    than under Bush?  Even more of my money?  Then it's not quite the same -- it's a limited program vs. a greatly expanded program.

    Besides, Obama said the '90s were bad.  And he wouldn't say different things at different times to different people.  That would be old politics.

    [ Parent ]

    Citation please (none / 0) (#75)
    by SpinDoctor on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:03:52 PM EST
    Can you please provide a link to where Obama said that the decade of the 90s were bad?  Also, would you have any objection to Obama's programs if they mirrored Clinton's in size and scope?

    [ Parent ]
    We don't do redundancy here (none / 0) (#79)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:08:17 PM EST
    at the request of the host, repeating lengthy discussions already held here, but the site has a good search function, so you can find those -- if you were out of the country and really didn't hear all the '90s bashing by the Obama campaign.

    Limited size and scope of this, to what it was pre-Bush, would help with me.  But I'd still want a lot more answers, owing to the marked religiosity of Obama.  (Just as I would not settle for vague answers from McCain about proposals for the military.  Candidates have their histories.)

    [ Parent ]

    "That is simply false" (none / 0) (#121)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:27:47 PM EST
    faith based program polices to those initiated by Bill Clinton.

    As I pointed out previously, that was initiated by Sen. John Ashcroft as an amendment to the Welfare Reform bill. Clinton did sign it.

    It is a bit of a spin, doctor, to say that faith based programs were initiated by Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    AP: he'll give larger religious orgs more power (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by catfish on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:18:26 AM EST
    What to make of this:
    Obama proposes to elevate the program to a "moral center" of his administration, by renaming it the Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, and changing training from occasional huge conferences to empowering larger religious charities to mentor smaller ones in their communities.

    This just reeks of Chicago to me. What if my Atheist group is a smaller org?

    Of course, Christians tend to be (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:40:09 AM EST
    the ones with the largest organizations, don't they?

    [ Parent ]
    Fastest way to kill it... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    ...might be to remind voters that funding will go to mosques as well.

     Or better yet...madrassas.  That word seems to frighten the right the most.

    [ Parent ]

    Ouch. But accept maybe in Dearborn (none / 0) (#60)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:51:18 AM EST
    in Michigan, I doubt that mosques are the largest congregations anywhere.  See bolded part of quote in comment above.  So I repeat, it looks like that would mean Christian organizations getting my money to mentor smaller organizations, of other faiths.

    [ Parent ]
    cx: except maybe in Dearborn (none / 0) (#65)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:57:28 AM EST
    and I must need more coffee.

    [ Parent ]
    I think... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
    ...it is competitive bidding that usually seals the deal.  And of course organizational clout.  But the mosques in Dearborn are quite active, as far as charities go.  This was an issue at some point not too long ago, if I remember correctly.

     The tactic is Rovian, but surprisingly effective.  There are large numbers of fundamentalist Protestants who can't fathom giving money to the Roman Catholic Church, to say nothing of mosques.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Not sure I understand the relevance (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:04:10 PM EST
    of the last graf -- as both Catholics and Protestants are Christian, so it still would be Christians "mentoring" those other, misguided faiths.:-)

    [ Parent ]
    Catholics are Christians? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Alec82 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:09:42 PM EST
    That'd be interesting news to many fundamentalist Protestants, who remain convinced that they worship the pagan goddess Mary.

     (really, I'm not kidding, there are lots of them out there)

    [ Parent ]

    Ah, it was snark -- and good snark (none / 0) (#85)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:20:09 PM EST
    that I missed, sorry.  Yes, as a former Cat'lic who once married into a Prot clan -- of many denominations, including several sorts of Lutherans alone -- I learned to not reminisce about my years in May processions, singing songs about Mary.  It really freeks the Prots.  And then I became one, and I find hymnals full of my old Mary songs but with different lyrics.  

    So I get to laugh at the Prots no knowing they're singing my old Mary songs.

    [ Parent ]

    Hell yeah (none / 0) (#150)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:25:30 PM EST
    I never would have believed it, having grown up in heathen pagan communist Massachusetts.  Then I lived in Wisconsin and had more than one conversation on this very topic.  An eyeopener in more ways than one.

    I fall into that broad 'lapsed Catholic' category, with a long and solid list of complaints against the CC, but found myself defending it in many a conversation.

    But your definition is the most concise summary I've heard.

    [ Parent ]

    Btw, the code word is (none / 0) (#178)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 06:12:18 PM EST
    "Romans."  I was a former "Roman" to the Lut'rans.

    Never could figure out what that was about.  Or the Mary-as-pagan-fertility-goddess freekout or whatever.

    [ Parent ]

    Or kill it by saying (none / 0) (#135)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:45:07 PM EST
    that a "big church" that would be asked to mentor other churches would be the one headed by the good Reverend Wright.

    [ Parent ]
    "moral center" (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:27:12 PM EST
    While I'd applaud any sign of core principles in BO at this point, this made me vomit a bit.

    [ Parent ]
    This part really troubles me: (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:21:37 AM EST
    from same article:

    The program would "be central to our White House mission," he said, and would consider elevating the director of his Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships to a cabinet-level post.

    yikes.

    Secretary of Faith?  no thanks.

    Secretary of Charity, too (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:42:26 AM EST
    instead of Secretary of Health and Human Services?

    Faith and Charity.  Secretary of Hope, of course, would be redundant with Obama as president. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe they could (none / 0) (#62)
    by tree on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:53:37 AM EST
    rename the Treasury Secretary to Secretary of Change?

    [ Parent ]
    LOL! (none / 0) (#129)
    by tek on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:35:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yikes!! (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:32:11 PM EST
    is right. I'm a mainstream Christian and this is what we deal with daily down here. You're not a real Christian unless you become some sort of evangelical/fundamentalist. The last thing we, or frankly, most christians need is the WH to turn into one huge evangelical congregation. Good grief, these people have been on the run since Terri Schiavo and now Obama wants to give them more clout? No thanks. I warned people about the fundamentalists but no one wanted to believe me. Now they do. Have we learned our lesson from Bush? Perhaps the voters have but honestly this is a really, really bad idea.

    [ Parent ]
    See (none / 0) (#130)
    by tek on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 01:37:46 PM EST
    this is what Obama means by "reaching across the aisle."  Adopt Repulican policies to get Republican votes.

    That's why he didn't like Hillary and Bill just working with Republicans and forging compromises and having a Republican in the Cabinet.  No, Obama is going to morph INTO a Republican.

    [ Parent ]

    Even W didn't go that far (none / 0) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:00:21 PM EST
    Exactly what party is it that is suggesting a Secretary of Faith? Please can we get the old Democratic Party that believed that separation of church and state was a good thing back. The New Democratic Party policies just makes me nauseous.

    [ Parent ]
    This whole fiasco (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by eric on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:23:32 AM EST
    is an example of something greater that has happened over the last 8 years.  It seems that the media - and many of the rest of us - seem to be willing to believe that the President has the power to unilaterally change the law.  When Obama was (erroneously) reported to have said that he would allow hiring and firing based upon religious determinations, everyone seemed to believe that he could even do this.  The truth is, he couldn't.  There are laws against this sort of thing.  Not to mention the Constitutional implications.

    Why are we so willing to believe that a President could just set a policy when it is contrary to law and precedent?  Because people have gotten used to this under the current administration.  The President and his administration have, in too many ways to list, simply disregarded law and precedent repeatedly.  It has decreed that treaties don't matter.  It has issued signing statements that it has decreed to be the law.  It has rather blatantly disregarded FISA and the Fourth Amendment itself.  On and on.  And nobody - not the courts not the Congress - have stepped forward to stop this.

    The result is that we are left us with a sort of banana republic mentality.  We think the next dictator to step in the office will have the power to do what he wants.  But that isn't and shouldn't be the way things are.  The number one thing that Obama should do is to restore the rule of law.  We can't continue on this course.

    The problem is (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 02:30:13 PM EST
    this particular crop of Democrats in Congress.  They  won't even stand up to the Republicans even when they have the public overwhelmingly on their side.  Why would anyone think they'd vet or deny Obama anything?

    [ Parent ]
    You negate your own argument (none / 0) (#58)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:46:54 AM EST
    by pointing out that this president (and many a president, of course, in the course of our history as a country) unilaterally changed the law.

    Until challenged, if challenged, and told to stop by the courts -- after several years go by under the unilaterally changed law -- executive orders and just deliberate end-arounds or even defiance of the law lets presidents get away with a lot.

    Is it possible that this presidential wannabe is telling you what he wants to get away with?

    [ Parent ]

    Some entities that have or had religious (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:32:28 AM EST
    affiliations provide great and necessary services. Some of the really best hospitals and nursing homes in my state either started out being a religious affiliate or retain their affiliation still. I have no problem with taxpayer money going to these entities for services rendered (i,e. Medicaid recipient choosing a religious nursing home).

    I do object to taxpayer money going directly to a religious organization. Most religions require charitable works as part of their doctrines. Don't see why these activities need to become  government paid for profit events. Also, there has not been enough data to prove that these organizations are better than secular organizations in providing services and too many ways that this type of direct funding can be abused. I agree with Rev. Lynn's position.

    But the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, criticized Mr. Obama's support of a program that Mr. Lynn said had undermined civil liberties and civil rights. "I am disappointed that any presidential candidate would want to continue a failed policy of the Bush administration," Mr. Lynn said. "It ought to be shut down, not continued."


    Respectfully Disagree (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by daring grace on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:54:37 PM EST
    with Mr. Lynn with whom I'm usually in agreement.

    I do agree with your first paragraph. I have seen the same situation with religious managed services in my area.

    The reason I disagree with Lynn on this is that I think the larger point of Obama's proposal is being missed in the (more media provocative) hoopla over religion.

    To me, it seems Obama is expanding this initiative in a positive manner by including secular service providers in the mix. I think it hearkens back to his respect for grassroots efforts.

    Bush focused (and meant the focus) to be on faith based support only. His plan was exclusive and values based. I think Obama is saying, as long as religion isn't promoted with public funds, who cares who is doing the effective work in our communities? It's time for locally managed efforts to be rewarded. And he explicitly includes non faith based groups in his proposal.

    [ Parent ]

    One more thing from me. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by DFLer on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:52:43 AM EST
    I really don't think of all this as pandering by the Obama campaign to get the votes of evangelicals, or anything like that (or intended to be a shout out to those who think he's Muslim). I think Mr. Obama sincerely believes in all this, and in the importance of "faith". He is, after all, a self-proclaimed born-again-in-Jesus man.

    While he is of course entitled to those beliefs, which are shared by many Americans according to the "polls", I am uncomfortable with all this. I see in it a slippery slope towards intolerance and a crumbling of the walls separating church and state.

    I agree that it appears to (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by tree on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 12:01:27 PM EST
    be an indication of Obama's truly held position, and not pandering. I suspect that most of his pandering happened during the primary and progressive don't want to face up to this.

     His position on this, and his belief in privatizing government subsidized housing, as well as his U of Chicago advisors worry me in regards to the issue of social security privatization. I don't agree with what I think are his true beliefs on any of these privatization issues.

    [ Parent ]