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Tuesday Midday Open Thread

Wes Clark will be interviewed by Andrea Mitchell on MSNBC in the next minutes. If I can, I'll provide some highlights.

Glenn Greenwald thinks that Obama is going to allow religious discrimination in hiring by faith based groups. I am trying to get the best info I can on this.

Quick update - Clark stands by his statements and Andrea Mitchell says sure all that is true, but Obama does not have executive experience either. Clark gets off a great line on Mitchell I was asked a direct question and I answered it directly, I know that does not happen much in politics but it is what I do.

Clark is too good for these people. Andrea Mitchell is outraged on behalf of McCain and calls him "an extraordinary person." Andrea Mitchell is entitled to her opinion, but not when she is pretending to be a journalist.

This is an Open Thread.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Wes is sticking to his guns. (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Marco21 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:09:03 PM EST
    Gotta love him. Andrea is playing Barack's speech in which he insinuates Clark devalued McCain's service.

    Luckily, Wes Clark won't go under a bus without a fight. He's still promoting Barack even after that stab in the back.

    Now Andrea is quoting professional moron John Avarosis claim the McCain did propaganda for the Vietnamese.

    I'll stop the live blogging crap, but Wes basically said "I was asked, so I told."

    Note al the Journalists who attack (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:51:36 PM EST
    Clark on this. They will eventually turnon Obama in the Fall.

    [ Parent ]
    Mitchell Turning On Obama (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by JimWash08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:03:11 PM EST
    I find it hard to believe considering how fangirly she behaved, with her network's and colleagues' full consent, over BO.

    I think those who were in the tank for him, are in there all the way, esp. Tweety and Olbermann.

    But, I hope your prediction is true. Not that I want them to turn on him. But to take off their fluff-lined kid gloves mostly.

    [ Parent ]

    Has Tweety said anything yet? (none / 0) (#111)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:05:59 PM EST
    Or is he still feeling that tingle down his leg?  ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    I'd Be Surprised (none / 0) (#127)
    by JimWash08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:14:04 PM EST
    if he hasn't. He couldn't keep that yap of his closed long enough. I refuse to watch his show, or any show on his pathetic network for that matter.

    [ Parent ]
    Also he is drawing fire to bring McCain's (none / 0) (#57)
    by ruffian on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:43:13 PM EST
    media shills out into the open. Now we know who they are, and that they are still firmly embedded with McCain. McCain love wins out over the Obama infatuation once it gets down to it.  Good to know.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you... (none / 0) (#110)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:05:51 PM EST
    ...think that McCain did not make propaganda films for the NV?  

    [ Parent ]
    This is the exact bs I was talking about (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by angie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:52:55 PM EST
    this is the road we should not be traveling against McCain. Yes, he broke -- everyone breaks -- he broke after 5 years of torture -- a lot longer then I would have lasted, and I'm willing to bet a lot longer then most. Attacking him on this is vile. Clark should have stuck to his original message -- serving in the military is only one, and not the only "qualification" to look to when deciding who should be president -- because the convenient one sentence "sound bite" Clark provided re: "shot down in a plane" has gotten that real, true point lost, and now people supporting Obama are actually attacking McCain's service as not being "all that" -- service that Clark himself called "heroic" (see, even that point Clark made has gotten lost because of that stupid sound bite).  
    Attack McCain on his policies -- goddang that is such an easy target -- but do not make Obama and McCain have a pissing contest on who is and isn't "qualified" because McCain's 20 something years in the Navy coupled with his 25 years in the House & Senate is going to make Obama's 55 days a year in the Ill. Senate and 1/2 term in the US Senate not look so hot to most Americans.

    [ Parent ]
    If he did... (none / 0) (#115)
    by pmj6 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    ...Karl Rove would have been running them in 2000.

    [ Parent ]
    Riiiiiight.... (none / 0) (#126)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:13:58 PM EST
    ...because Karl would have wanted to underscore W's fine, outstanding service record.

    How many posts are you shooting for today--25?

    [ Parent ]

    Hmm (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:16:17 PM EST
    Did Bush's service record improve between 2000 and 2004 or something?  Because Rove certainly had no reservations about attacking the military record of Bush's opponent in 2004.

    [ Parent ]
    Steve... (none / 0) (#188)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:46:14 PM EST
    ...we are talking about Rove in relation to the '00 primary when he was running against McCain.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:52:24 PM EST
    So let me spell it out for you.

    You argue that Rove would have voluntarily refrained from using McCain's propaganda films against him in 2000, because attacking McCain's service record would have opened up scrutiny of Bush's far less impressive service record.

    But your argument ignores the fact that in 2004, Rove was more than happy to attack John Kerry's service record, paying no heed to the risk that it would open up scrutiny of Bush's far less impressive service record.

    So I think the conduct of the 2004 campaign renders your theory about 2000 inoperative.  It is, indeed, a valid argument to say that if McCain's propaganda videos were out there, Rove would have found a way to use them against him.

    [ Parent ]

    Duh... (none / 0) (#192)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:47:15 PM EST
    ...when Rove was running W's campaign in '00.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm sure I already clocked 25... (none / 0) (#148)
    by pmj6 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:21:37 PM EST
    ...but back during the NC primary Rove operatives did spread the word McCain went insane during his captivity...

    [ Parent ]
    I have absolutely... (none / 0) (#159)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:27:42 PM EST
    ...no doubt that it did indeed inflict some deep, underlying mental damage.  As it surely would to anyone in that situation.  

    War has a way of going that.  Ask anyone of the many, many Vietnam era vets living on the streets.    

    [ Parent ]

    Here's the problem... (none / 0) (#191)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:47:14 PM EST
    If you say that a persons previous experience in something other than politics is not a qualification then diminish whatever a person has done before which is part of their character, thoughts, etc...

    For instance, GW's oil company background, Sen. Clinton's blue collar upbringing in Scranton, PA, Obama's Kenyan father, etc...

    We are all somewhat defined by the things we have done in our past, what we have learned and how it shapes our views in the future.

    Now, one thing doesn't make or not make a person qualified to be president outside of age and place of birth.

    Gen. Clark is considered to be a war criminal by Amnesty International of all groups. Is his whole career determined by that?

    [ Parent ]

    And what as Democrat's (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:16:52 PM EST
    Do we gain with this? Increased religous pressure on party policies?

    It's more than hiring practices to me. What about the political clout these organization will gain from their actions. One of things Hamas did to gain support for their cause was to offer aid to the people when government failed. That's worked out real well for us too.

    re Gen Clark (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:17:55 PM EST
    Clark may have been accurate in his statemet about riding in planes and being shot down not being a qualification for president, that is a matter of opinion.

    But, everyone in the McCain camp and MSM as well has taken Clark's statement to mean that McCain's military service in TOTAL, including being a POW, cannot be included as part of an overall record that qualifies him to be president and commander in chief.

    I would submit that his POW status certainly shows the courage, strength and integrity that are all qualities most voters would include on any list of presidential qualifications.

    So, if you want to say Clark was only talking about riding in a plane and being shot done, then have at it.  But, I doubt that most voters would believe an interpretation that suggests that Schieffer was only asking about riding in a plane and being shot done and didn't intend to include McCain's POW status in the question put to Clark.

    You are entitled to your opinion (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:26:45 PM EST
    I am entitled to mine.

    Saying that it is NOT a qualification for President is not denigrating McCain;s service. Which was the lie being perpetrated and confirmed by the Obama campaign.

    Indeed, Obama has now accepted that McCain is indeed qualified to be Commander in Chief because of his service.


    [ Parent ]

    It was in poor taste (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by talex on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:35:57 PM EST
    Perhaps if it had been worded differently it would have been palatable. But the way Clark said it did not sit well with many.

    When you consider what McCain endured in the aftermath of being shot down then Clark's comment seems petty and the qualification thing is overshadowed by the larger story. He should have pulled an Obama 'misspoke' moment and moved on. Perhaps he will today. If not his stubbornness is self-defeating because there is truly nothing to be gained by what he said. If that is the best he can do the he has nothing that can help Obama.

    Some messages work - others don't - and you quickly find that out and respond appropriately.

    [ Parent ]

    A thin about the best of career military (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:45:07 PM EST
    as I've noticed, and learned from them, is that they are trained early to on to anticipate scenarios and work out well ahead of time what exactly is their line in the sand that they won't cross.

    This is Clark's, it seems to me, and no political candidate is going to make him do a "misspoke" moment.  

    [ Parent ]

    Has military tracy weighed in on (none / 0) (#62)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:46:29 PM EST
    Gen. Clark's initial statements?

    [ Parent ]
    I've been puppy busy (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:16:12 PM EST
    so this is the first I've heard about it.  I fully agree with Clark.  Been to too many parties hiding in the corners sipping maritinis with old pilots and listening to  young patriotic soliders bicker about Clark's military past. There were a few events that took place that Clark ended up absolutely correct about.  Clark chapped a lot of people during Bosnia by not allowing the Apache helicopter do what was called a "deep attack".  Ticked off a whole bunch of military brass but he was right.  The Apaches did a "deep attack" in Iraq and they got into a whole bunch of "deep doo doo" and about 600 million dollars worth of military helicopter got the ever lovin Jesus shot to hell out of it :)  McCain had better start shutting his face unless he wants a few people who know what the fight in Bosnia was about whipping out their copy of 'Fiasco'.

    [ Parent ]
    You continually surprise me. (none / 0) (#138)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:18:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heh! (none / 0) (#157)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:27:13 PM EST
    Look, I got the beginning scoop on this fishing some unsuspecting party hosts gin out of the freezer during a party with this old pilot that was about to retire.  Everybody was soaked on beer and we couldn't stomach it.  We also found a jar of perfectly old olives in the frig, so we had dirty martinis while I learned stuff.  He was in trouble though when his wife found out how much time he had spent with me but it was strictly educational.  Since then nothing sets a party off like bringing up Wes Clark and the deep attack.  My husband has never been an advocate of it. It is a testosterone plus lizard brain strategy in my nonflying not in uniform opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    Took forever to find something on (none / 0) (#175)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:38:46 PM EST
    the Balkans part of this but here's a link.  Haven't read it all, but it is what I'm talking about.  Now I'll see if I can find something about the Apache attack that went completely South in Iraq.  Can't remember the name of the actual battle but there was only one deep attack done. I should be able to find something.

    [ Parent ]
    Karbala... (none / 0) (#177)
    by pmj6 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:41:36 PM EST
    ...was the name of the city where the misbegotten helicopter raid was launched.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, right on (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:47:40 PM EST
    I found an article from Slate that blames the helicopter.  What I know from my husband though is that the Apache is the most survivable of all of America's helicopters for the pilots flying them, and they have their uses just not the deep attack ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Not that I'm aware of, but I will (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:44:27 PM EST
    1.  How Clark said what he said:  It was said in the simple, direct prose of a life-time military officer.  No evasions, no dodging.  Similarly, as others have noted, he wouldn't have come out and said it and said it the way he did, had he not meant it and been prepared to stand behind it.
    2.  What he said:  A couple things.  
    (A) First, there is a strong implication - from the "riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down" language - which strongly indicates a couple things, none of them positive for McCain.  This contains a strong element of "he got into this situation by the lottery luck of his airplane and antiaircraft fire being in the same spot at the same time."  In other words, it was purely fortuitous that he got shot down and survived.  Thus, his ascension to his present state in life was not the result of any great skill, merit, or achievement but was rather the result of being in the right (or wrong) place at the appropriate time.
      This does not, in any way, denigrate his personal, physical courage in withstanding both his wounds and torture while in captivity.  Rather, it goes to how he got there in the first place.  He got shot down.
      It is an article of faith (and should be obvious to anyone) that the guy who gets shot down is judged to have been not the best pilot.  The reasoning goes:  "If he'd been any good, he never would have been shot down in the first place."
      This, too, does not denigrate his personal courage after he got himself into the mess, but rather addresses his lack of skills and judgment - which would have avoided his being there in the first place.
      In short, then, Clark, as a professional military man, was calling out McCain as the screw-up he was.
    (B) McCain's career before being shot down, FWIW, was pretty close in character to that of the Current Occupant at 1600 Penna. Ave.  Drunkeness, hell-raising, insubordination (outside if not inside the military), troubled personality traits, a lot of charisma, and treating those close to him badly all marked both Bush and McCain (remember how McC treated his crippled first wife?).
      Messing up in planes plays into it, too.  McCain cracked up at least one plane before he was shot down - something someone not bearing a famous name likely would not have gotten away with.  Bush II, we should remember, almost cracked up a light plane with passengers in it shortly before he quit drinking.
      Scratch the surface of what Clark is saying, and you'll easily see he's - subtly - making clear the equivalency of Bush II and McCain.

    (C)  The overlooked aspect in this is McCain's command - later.  He was a relatively undistinguished commander of a peacetime squadron.  He got that job as much as a reward for his having been a POW and for being the scion of a Navy kaderfamilie as anything else.  Despite the post hoc (and false) allegations he quit the Navy in spite of being selected for admiral (no way an undistinguished squadron commander would have gotten a flag), he rose to the level of his incompetence and a bit beyond - aided by his personal heroics.

    But, digging in a little can be productive.

    The easy comparison which pretty much everyone can understand is this - Ted Williams was one of the greatest baseball players ever, but his record as manager (of the Washington Senators, etc.) was mediocre at best.  Joe Maddon, OTOH, currently managing the Tampa Bay Rays, never played a single out in the Major Leagues and spent about 4 years in the minors, but his team is currently in first place in the AL East (Ahead of the Red Sox and Yankees).  

    Great players, as a rule, do not make great managers.  Teddy couldn't relate to lesser-skilled players, nor get the most out of them, which is a (not the only) reason his managerial career was short and unsuccessful.  Mediocre players can - but don't necessarily do - make good managers.  
    Pretty much the same obtains for politicians.

    A baseball manager, in large part, selects who plays and has substantial input (it varies from team to team) into who is on the team in the first place.  A president has the same sort of selection of personnel.  And, remember, policy is personnel.

    A squadron commander in the Navy, OTOH, pretty much has to take the people he's given and deal with that.

    McCain never was a great squadron commander, and didn't do much with the resources he had.  Presently, McCain's selection of personnel belies his lack of experience in managing anything and wholesale lack of judgment.  He's surrounded by whatever hairballs (and heirballs) the Republican party has hacked up - and most of them are lobbyists, often for some of the most odious tyrants the world has seen.
    One is compelled to wonder whether and to what extent McCain actually selected the campaign staff he has - as opposed to having it more-or-less presented to him ready to go.

    Comparing Maddon of the Rays - he spent almost 30 years as a manager (and went to a near-Ivy college, too).  No dummy he, and no lack of experience in motivating and selecting personnel.  McCain, OTOH, has never exhibited the kind of discipline or insight a successful manager would.  He's what I call a "done 'fer" - everything's been done 'fer him and people have covered his errors, catastrophes and such first because he came from a prominent family and second because they saw they could ride his back to power and profit.

    In other words, McCain is just like George W. Bush.  And in more ways than can be easily counted.

    That's what The Village and the Kool Kids wolfin' that Arizona barbeque between massages desperately want everyone to not see.

    [ Parent ]

    Hmm (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:47:37 PM EST
    That's an interesting essay, but doesn't all your speculation about what Clark meant by his specific choice of words sort of run counter to the fact that he was simply repeating the phrasing of the question?

    Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-

    GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.



    [ Parent ]
    He didn't have to take that bait (none / 0) (#205)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:52:40 PM EST
    if he didn't agree with the premise of the question.  And he did not have to use the clear, direct prose of a lifetime military officer in answering it.

    If there's anything the last 7 plus years should have taught us, it's that military people can be extraordinarily clear when they want to be, and extraordinarily obfuscatory when they want to be.  That skill increases with rank (though having the skill comes before getting the rank).

    Clark had four stars.  How much skill in communicating or obfuscating at will do you think he has?

    He spoke his mind - quite directly.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain like Bush? (5.00 / 2) (#209)
    by pmj6 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:56:14 PM EST
    I think you've hit on another reason why Clark has gotten so much guff, and that is the implication McCain was a crappy pilot for getting shot down. I don't know how good his piloting skills were, but he was shot down by AAA, which basically works by saturating the air with projectiles hoping for a lucky hit or two. Little skill involved in hitting, and almost no evasion possible. So, you can be an expert pilot and still be brought down, which is why fighter jocks in WW2 hated doing ground attack duty (Col. Gabreski, one of top US WW2 fighter aces, was shot down during such a mission). Not to mention that implying people who are hit enemy fire are somehow to blame is really bad politics in a year like this.

    The difference between McCain and Bush is, of course, that the former willingly put himself in a position where his life could be terminated in an untimely manner by a poorly aimed of unguided ordnance. McCain did not have to fly these missions, he could have turned in his wings and be relegated to safe ship duty, but chose otherwise.

    [ Parent ]

    It was worded (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by miriam on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:16:02 PM EST
    exactly the way it was asked by Bob Schieffer.

    [ Parent ]
    The words were Schieffer's (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by wurman on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:21:03 PM EST
    Thrown right back at him.

    [ Parent ]
    I am quite comfortable with Clark's message (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:38:31 PM EST
    and my own about it as Clark seems to be as well.

    [ Parent ]
    it is only not denegrating McCain's service if (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:38:27 PM EST
    you are very specific and make sure you are understood to only be talking about riding in a plane and being shot down.

    It is denegrating if you mean that proving your character through being a POW is not a qualification.  Or, then you get into whether character is or isn't a qualification for president and if it is, then you have to generate a list of accepted ways a candidate can prove "character" if you are going to argue that McCain's POW status is not an accepted way to prove one's character.

    [ Parent ]

    Hmmm... (none / 0) (#99)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    ...now where did I hear this thing about everyone being entitled to their opinions?  Oh yeah, when I said it yesterday...

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Is Superior (4.60 / 10) (#27)
    by talex on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:27:38 PM EST
    Where it took McCain being in an airplane to be shot down, Obama only requires opening his mouth to be shot down on a daily basis. Based on that he is clearly the superior of the two.

    [ Parent ]
    This may be the comment of the day (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:42:00 PM EST
    but the day is young, and already what a day it is.

    [ Parent ]
    Unfortuantely... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Marco21 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:21:25 PM EST
    most people won't be watching that clip of FTN to make up their own minds and hear Clark praise McCain's service as he just did again on MSNBC.

    Our toolbags on TV - aka, news anchors - are already doing a great job of framing Republican attacks and taking Clark out of context, etc.

    Check Media Matters.

    Clark, again, was right.

    [ Parent ]

    agreed (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by bjorn on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:23:10 PM EST
    I think the media once again is trying to create a fake outrage or controversy over Clark's remarks.  When you listen to him, and hear the comments in context there is nothing there to be offended over.

    [ Parent ]
    See them attack that man (none / 0) (#81)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:56:35 PM EST
    who wins his wars.

    Lightweight Morons.

    [ Parent ]

    Dear Lord, please don't go there. (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:22:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    On the faith based... (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:31:57 PM EST
    Will Moslems be eligible?  or just Xrischtians?  Imagine if a Moslem social service group ever got Federal money.  The right wing would twist in their own venom.  

    I doubt Obama will go there. (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:33:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You can't help but notice (none / 0) (#171)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:36:51 PM EST
    the mosque in Toledo.  Oops.  Perrysburg!

    Detroit is also has a prominent Muslim community.

    That would Ohio and Michigan, respectively.  Two of those swing states.

    Heh.  

    Also: Why Obama Should Visit A Mosque

    Why is it entirely unsurprising that Obama has yet to visit a mosque this election?  

    [ Parent ]

    It's like saying the word "gay" (none / 0) (#185)
    by MyLeftMind on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:45:22 PM EST
    Hillary said gay in so many speeches that the Repugs were able to make fun of her with a snippet video of her saying "gay, gay, gay."

    If Obama goes to a Mosque, it'll be a Repubarazzi photo-op of the century.  

    Oddly enough, people are still thinking our guy's a Muslim infiltrator or something.  Darn low information citizens, why do we let them vote? /snark


    [ Parent ]

    i don't like the "faith based" (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:32:42 PM EST
    program and certainly don't want to see it explanded.

    it seems to easy to me for it to just become an accounting issue.

    If I am a faith based organization and I now spend 1/2 of my budget running a soup kitchen and 1/2 of my budget proselytizing, all I have to do is get tax-payer money to run the soup kitchen and then I can double up on my efforts to convert the heathens without have to increase my own fund raising.

    He Is A Clinton-Ally After All (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by JimWash08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    I was asked a direct question and I answered it directly.
    Wasn't this HRC's response to questions about her response to Wrightgate?

    I love it when the pols are direct and don't mince words - whether it's good or bad.

    To quote myself yesterday: (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by oldpro on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:05:29 PM EST

    There are things he (Obama) could have said but what he did say wasn't one of them.
    Now he doesn't have Clark and his military bonafides to rely on.

    My first impulse would be for the candidate to say something like:

    "Hey!  General Clark was asked a question!  He answered it.  I agree with his answer.  And I will take Wes Clark's advice and input on foreign policy and military matters any day of the week because his experience and background indicate superior judgment.  The same cannot be said for everyone who has ever worn a uniform."

    Well...maybe leave that last sentence out...but still.

    Could we please see a little fight in the presumptive nominee?  Just a little?

    [ Parent ]

    July 4 HRC Independence Day (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by sleepingdogs on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:40:30 PM EST
    Please consider making a donation to Hillary Clinton on July 4 in the amount of $20.08 to help her retire her debt.

    Thank you.


    Are you out your mind? (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:55:12 PM EST
    It's gonna cost double what it cost last year for family and friends to get a proper bbq on.

    Lets see....ground chuck and give to Hillary or ground sirloin...that's a no-brainer.

    [ Parent ]

    Besides.... (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:10:26 PM EST
    when I have an extra dub it either goes to beggars on the street or Talkleft.  Millionaires don't crack the short list.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure would be nice... (none / 0) (#135)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:17:05 PM EST
    ...to have someone retire MY debt!  Oh well, since I'm not rich, that won't happen.

    [ Parent ]
    Somehow.... (1.00 / 2) (#146)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:21:22 PM EST
    I don't think your starting budget was in the tens of millions either Mile...and still the campaign couldn't stay on budget!!

    I guess they knew they could always hit up the rubes for more dough...who needs fiscal responsibility when you have rubes?

    [ Parent ]

    Wes Clark broke the taboo of talking (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:46:01 PM EST
    about McCain's experiences as a POW in less than a worshipful way.  The first one who breaks a taboo is severely attacked; or, as Clark would know, the first one over the hill draws all the hostile fire.

    Clark is absolutley right....And, now perhaps the hagiography of McCain can be given a rest.

    And I would go one step further and look at the acutal facts of McCain's captivity.  As McCain himself has publicly acknowledged, he was severely injured (with several broken bones, the efects of which he still suffers from) when his plane crashed into a lake in Hanoi.  He was severely abused/tortured and then after four days signed a confession and started appearing in propaganda films in return for receiving medical treatment.  McCain has admitted all this.  It is likely the footage that McCain plays in his television commericals is from one of those propaganda films....There is no dishonor here--everyone "talks"....

    McCain was offered and turned down early release, but as McCain himself admitted within the last few days, so did others.  Col. David Hackworth had this to say:

    McCain refused an early release. An act of valor? Three former POWs told me he was ordered to turn it down by his U.S. POW commander and he "just followed orders."

    McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war hero by conventional standards, but rather a tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying the war hero card.  

    Hackworth was one of the most highly decorated soldiers ever.   He testified in front of Congress in 1971 that the Viet Cong flag would fly over Saigon by 1975.  He was constantly for the grunt and against Army and Pentagon b.s.

    Please (5.00 / 8) (#83)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:57:20 PM EST
    When you start talking about McCain appearing in propaganda films, you make me literally nauseous.  I can only imagine how a more centrist voter would respond to your brand of "truth-telling."  Just stop it already.

    [ Parent ]
    You said this the last time (none / 0) (#120)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:10:57 PM EST

    These are facts that McCain admits to.....What people do is fill in McCain's story with all sorts of untruths to make McCain seem like an immortal god.  Stuff like he was tortured every day for 5 years--something I read here on this blog--or he stood up to the North Vietnamese, which was in the column that I commented on  that drew your ire last time....

    What I see with McCain reminds me of the reaction one sees to historical Jesus research.  Someone publishes an article that suggests that Jesus was not divine, and the invective just flies....Also squeemishness.

    McCain talks about being a POW and puts footage of film in his television commercials, and no  one can say that the footage is from a propaganda film....And so the legend grows that McCain is a god....and never "broke."

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry (5.00 / 6) (#125)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:13:55 PM EST
    I find it scummy, and I'm going to keep saying it until you realize that you are just alienating people.

    I am positively embarrassed to occupy the same political party as people like you, TINS, and John Aravosis.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree (none / 0) (#136)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:17:08 PM EST
    The truth is not scummy--especially a truth that McCain admits to.....He is the one who brings up his status as POW in public...

    Say it all you like--I disagree.....

    [ Parent ]

    Okay (5.00 / 4) (#154)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:23:57 PM EST
    I realize you think there's nothing that's true that could possibly be scummy to bring up.  That puts you in the same category as people who love to go on about Obama's middle name or the fact that his father was a Muslim or what have you, but if you're okay with that, it's a free country.

    Obama's supporters often seem to be his biggest problem.  You just have no idea how to avoid alienating people, do you?

    [ Parent ]

    I do have an issue with (none / 0) (#173)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:37:35 PM EST
    overdramatizing military records....

    And, you are wrong, I am not bringing up the subject....McCain and his supporters bring up the subject.

    Your moralizing ad hominem is as tedious as it is predictable.

    [ Parent ]

    I can't be any more clear (5.00 / 6) (#180)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    No rational human being will buy it when you claim that McCain is forcing you to post in every thread that he made propaganda films for the enemy, nor will they buy it when you claim that you don't mean anything negative by it, you're just stating a fact.

    You're so committed to your brave truth-telling that you don't even care that you are going to turn people off from Obama and cause them to rally to McCain's defense.  Believe me, I am the last person who wants to spend his afternoon sticking up for John McCain, but your bottom-dwelling attacks have managed to upset me to that degree.  If you ever paused for a moment in your righteous crusade to actually think about how other people will react, maybe you'd get it, but that obviously is not going to happen.

    [ Parent ]

    "In every thread" (none / 0) (#208)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:54:17 PM EST
    You think that is literally true?  A slight exaggeration?

    This is the second time....One in response to an article that said McCain "stood up to the North Vietnamese."  This time in the context of Clark's comments....

    The true facts are "negative"?  That is your assessment, not mine.  An honest discussion about what happens to people in captivity honors them all.  

    [ Parent ]

    I think that anyone who hasn't been (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    a POW should not spout off about what people did while in captivity. For the Democrats to start bringing up the so called propoganda film and other survival experiences of McCain is disgusting. That is really gutter tactics and if the Obama campaign uses that they will lose. On the other hand Clark was correct about what is required to be CIC and being a soldier, even a hero isn't required.

    [ Parent ]
    Spouting off about what was done (none / 0) (#128)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:14:11 PM EST
    in captivity....

    I am relaying information that McCain has publicly talked about.....

    Be offended--it is the truth....according to McCain....

    [ Parent ]

    He can talk about his experiences (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:19:36 PM EST
    any way he wants.  The American public who has never been in those circumstances have NO ROOM to criticise or denigrate the man and his captivity. Period. I will not vote for McCain, but I will not look for ways to criticise his experiences as a POW.  

    [ Parent ]
    You do not get it (none / 0) (#158)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:27:15 PM EST
    I am not "criticizing" McCain.

    The hidden assumption here is that talking about the fact that McCain "talked" is "criticism." Only the uninformed believe that.  And McCain has admitted this.  These are undipsuted facts.   Why can't we talk about them...

    What many do not like is having their unrealistic, mythic and untrue views of McCain punctured.  

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, but I am not uninformed. (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by hairspray on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:33:57 PM EST
    When the Democrats bring up unfortunate aspects of McCain's captivity in an attempt to ridicule his war record it crosses the line of "integrity and decency".  And tell me how is this different than Shaheen's comment about Obama's druging as a young man during the NH primary? After all, didn't Obama write about it in his autobiography? Should have been fair game, right?

    [ Parent ]
    Shaheen suggested (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:44:52 PM EST
    Obama was a dealer--an untruth.  And as far as I know, Obama doesn't have a television commercial talking about his past drug use...

    You just do not want to discuss what McCain himself has discussed....

    Look, I come from a military family....and if you run as a war hero....you bring on scrutiny.  At minimum, the true facts--as admitted to by the hero--should be an okay topic of discussion.

    "Ridicule."  Such a loaded word.  It sounds like you believe the true facts are shameful.  I do not.   They do show that McCain was human and not a god....What he did was honorable and commendable....No need to allow people to create additional myths by letting them build up untruths.

    [ Parent ]

    Is it not correct Obama wrote about (none / 0) (#203)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:51:25 PM EST
    his past drug use in one of his memoirs?

    [ Parent ]
    Clark (none / 0) (#151)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    didn't say it wasn't REQUIRED, he said it wasn't even a qualification.  He acted like it didn't count.  He said it as though military service wasn't even something you could mention as PART OF your own record of qualifications (plural) for the job of president.

    Has anyone from the McCain camp EVER SAID that military service was REQUIRED to be CIC as you have implied in your post?  Has anyone from the McCain camp ever said that McCain's military service ALONE makes him qualified?  I don't think so.

    But, to say, as Clark has, that McCain can't use his military serviec and POW status as party of a larger package of experiences that make him qualified to be president is just silly.

    [ Parent ]

    The Forlorn hope (none / 0) (#73)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:52:18 PM EST
    Man just steps into the breach.

    [ Parent ]
    Clark may be right but he can't win this one (none / 0) (#118)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:09:50 PM EST
    by sticking to his guns.

    [ Parent ]
    Depends. His definition of winning (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:13:19 PM EST
    may not be others' definitions.  His line in the sand, again.  This is a guy who had to prepare himself, as career military do, for much worse torture to get him to change his mind than a few minutes with Andrea Mitchell.

    [ Parent ]
    Cream.... (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by miriam on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:21:53 PM EST
    Are you sure there is a worse mental torture than being with Andrea Mitchell for even a few minutes?  I very much doubt I could withstand it.

    [ Parent ]
    new best post of the day (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    LOL

    [ Parent ]
    The thing that gets me about his meetings (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by sallywally on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:56:41 PM EST
    in Ohio is that they've been closed to the public and with very few people.

    McCain is holding town meetings. Obama should be doing so as well. No way Clinton would have held meetings like this. Not to mention a former candidate who may have won the popular vote....

    But Obama is so lackluster! Why doesn't he have the cohones to really campaign??!!!

    what kind of Press (none / 0) (#89)
    by ccpup on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:59:12 PM EST
    have those meetings been getting?  Is Obama assuming those who don't attend will believe the articles that say he was brilliant and everyone should vote for him?  Is that what he's counting on?

    I truly dread the debates and the town hall meetings.  Although he's not the best debates in the world, I fear McCain will wipe the floor with Barack.  And it ain't gonna be pretty.

    [ Parent ]

    Clark is the sacrificial Knight of this chess game (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by goldberry on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:58:46 PM EST
    NO one touches the third rail of the service of a POW and Clark knows it.  I'm betting it was deliberate.  

    No one else could have (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:00:38 PM EST
    but Clark can point to the fact that he won his wars and Mccain doesn't know how to win wars.

    [ Parent ]
    You're missing the point. It's a PR battle. (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by goldberry on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:02:43 PM EST
    Clark is a crafty one.  

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know about strategy (none / 0) (#170)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:35:19 PM EST
    I just focus on the simple possibility that Clark believed what he said.

    [ Parent ]
    Joke of the day (5.00 / 5) (#100)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:02:33 PM EST
    Welcome to OZ (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:28:13 PM EST
    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

    [ Parent ]
    Disgusting diary (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:29:58 PM EST
    He is praising John Aravosis for calling McCain "disloyal," and saying we need a lot more posts like that on the blogs.  Positively revolting.

    [ Parent ]
    I have to say (none / 0) (#172)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:37:10 PM EST
    Aravosis is a competent hatchet man. Accusing McCain of making propaganda for North Vietnam is just masterful. If I were going to swiftboat John McCain, I'd go with that narrative.

    But for those of us who care about the truth. . .

    [ Parent ]

    Believe me (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by Steve M on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:49:49 PM EST
    There is nothing masterful about it.  It's scummy and it will lose many more votes than it gains.

    [ Parent ]
    I would have told you the same thing (none / 0) (#210)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:56:38 PM EST
    about the SBVfT in 2004.

    [ Parent ]
    Mister Hyperbole himself? (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:46:09 PM EST
    (I could sift through his Clinton diaries to see if he's used the memes "do anything to win" or "republican lite" or "not progressive" or "not a real Democrat".)

    [ Parent ]
    Wes ran a military that went (5.00 / 6) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:02:47 PM EST
    into Bosnia.  He saved a lot of lives too being very careful about how he chose to do everything that was done.  I think I'll stick with Wes.  If Repubs and newsy personalities want to get really fussy about the matter and all patriotic and winning the war on terror and all that jazz all I have left to say is "Well, Wes Clark won his war!"

    Clark got to fight his war under (none / 0) (#164)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:31:06 PM EST
    Bill Clinton.  

    Unfortunately, the generals who fought wars under Bush weren't able to do what they wanted to do.  Remember General Shinseki (spelling) telling Congress they would need 400,000+ troops to keep the peace?  No one listened.  They all thought we could run this war on the cheap.

    So...  Yeah, it's good to have a good general to run a war, but I think you need a good President and a good Secretary of Defense to back up those generals.    

    [ Parent ]

    Can you help? (5.00 / 11) (#105)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:03:02 PM EST
    The Republican candidate is going to give my tax dollars to right wing conservative religious groups. The Democratic candidate wants to give my tax dollars to Wright and Pflegger. The Dem supports equal pay for women. The Rep doesn't.  But the Dem has fewer women on his staff and pays them less than the men.  The Rep has more female staffers, and they make more money than the men. The Rep is against Roe v. Wade. The Dem tepidly supports reproductive rights for women - he's not sure when life begins, says that abortion should not be outlawed on religious grounds, but women should consult with their pastors before making a decision. The Rep is willing to consider bombing Iran.  The Dem is willing to consider bombing Pakistan. Both support domestic spying. Both support the death penalty.  Neither will fight for UHC. Tell me why again why it is absolutely essential to have a Democrat in the WH? The past few weeks have be Adventures in Wonderland. The only thing missing is Alice.

    Wonderful summary (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:11:07 PM EST
    of my quandary, looking through the looking glass . . . darkly.  Do you also feel like the Red Queen, running as hard as you can to wade through all this -- and we only will find ourselves in the same place on day one aka January 21, 2009?

    [ Parent ]
    And the graft on my white rosebush (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:17:09 PM EST
    didn't make through the winter, and the roses came up red. I should have seen it as an omen.

    [ Parent ]
    because you are (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by TimNCGuy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:28:45 PM EST
    supposed to be AFRAID of the judges that McCain will appoint because apparently the dem controlled senate will just capitulate (as always) to all McCain appointments.

    and you are supposed to believe that Obama will appoint liberal judges to replace liberal judges on the court.

    My fear is that Obama will appoint more judges like O'Connor or Kennedy that are moderate instead of truely liberal in order to avoid any fighting with the repugs.  And the last thing we need is to replace liberal judges with moderate judges.  We need true liberals appointed to the court who are younger and healthier than Roberts and Alito.

    [ Parent ]

    Tax revolt? (none / 0) (#156)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:25:39 PM EST
    It's bugged me since I became a taxpayer that I have to fund the DEA and weapons programs and countless other crap.

    All I can come up with is tax revolt...unless you've got a better idea...I'm stumped.  Bend over and take it or go to jail, those are the only 2 options I can find.

    [ Parent ]

    I keep reading (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:05:10 PM EST
    That all this from Obama is merely a smoke screen to win. We'll see the real Obama later. I refuse to give any politician that much leeway. Obama never was a progressive. He has always wanted religion in politics. Iraq was merely a wedge in the primaries for him. He's supported the war since the day he went to the Senate. What we are seeing now is the Obama we have.

    The Real Obama? (none / 0) (#197)
    by Fabian on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:49:24 PM EST
    Will the Real Obama please stand up?

    Argh!  Are we always this silly during presidential elections?

    [ Parent ]

    New Campaign Charge: You supported Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Josey on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:24:26 PM EST
    NYT - 7/1
    http://tinyurl.com/3rf3vj

    AA Dem elected officials that supported Hillary are being challenged by
    AA Dems that supported THE ONE.
    Scary!

    And who needs to "get over it"??

    Great news.... (2.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:29:55 PM EST
    for the 4th of July weekend for those in eastern Long Island....due to some kind of monetary and/or jurisdictional dispute between the county and the state, Suffolk PD is cutting their highway patrol manpower by 25%.  Link

    Which means you will have a 25% less chance of getting your chops busted and extorted by the guys in the jackboots this weekend.  Awesome!  

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by janarchy on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:38:55 PM EST
    I was thinking it means I had better not go out that weekend since there will be more drunk drivers, more car accidents, more domestic disputes etc. Not that I was planning on doing anything this weekend but my annual viewing of 1776 where I can watch/listen to true patriots dance, sing and screw around. ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Same amount of drunk drivers.... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:45:34 PM EST
    same amount of accidents, same amount of speeding.

    But we will see a decrease in fines and arrests, and we won't see people slamming on their brakes at the speed traps causing a hazard....works for me:)

    I wonder what those true patriots would have said to a constable hiding in the bushes clocking how fast their horse and buggy is going, or pulling over their buggy to smell their breath.  I think they'd grab a musket:)

    [ Parent ]

    I don't agree w/you but I admire your (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:47:27 PM EST
    consistency.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks oc.... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:08:39 PM EST
    I'm the first to admit my utopia would likely be an unmitigated disaster....but we'd all be free as a motherf*cker:)

    How your Pads doin?...The Mets suck!

    [ Parent ]

    Pads are in the tank for this year and (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:15:24 PM EST
    about to become sellers rather than buyers.

    [ Parent ]
    At least... (none / 0) (#152)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:22:55 PM EST
    ...they're not in the basement like my poor Rockies.  We are destined to take the place of the Cubbies as loveable losers, I'm afraid.

    [ Parent ]