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A New Version Of The Malign Acceptance of Sexism

Courtesy of Al Hunt:

[S]ome Clintonistas persist in the whiny complaint that it was all about sexism. . . . Clinton herself complained of the "deeply offensive" sexual discrimination she faced particularly in the media . . .

Here's my question, is discussing the pervasive sexism in the Media now whining? Really? You sure you want to put it that way Al Hunt?

This is the "it's only sexism" version of the malign acceptance of sexism. I wonder if it too is acceptable. Sadly, it probably is.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Kudos (5.00 / 11) (#1)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:52:05 AM EST
    If this party doesn't shatter into a million pieces, it will be because of the influential intelligence of people like you, who actually get it.

    Al Hunt (5.00 / 12) (#2)
    by lefty lawyer on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:53:38 AM EST
    please meet the mirror.  Mirror, Mr. Hunt.

    We have met the sexist enemy, and he is you, Mr. Hunt.

    "My daughter loved Sex and the City, and women are great and blah blah blah whiny women blah blah blah."

    That's some deep analysis.  I really, really hope the Obama campaign does better than this.  Winners of primary campaigns (at least those who want to win general elections) have to meet the vanquished foe way more than halfway.  Obama can't win without a strong showing among Clinton voters.  Those voters don't want to hear about the strategic mistakes of their candidate (however true such stories are), they want to feel like Obama gets their issues and hears their concerns.

    Doesn't Al Hunt, (5.00 / 5) (#158)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:34:00 AM EST
    with his snotty dismissal of the concerns of Hillary supporters about sexism, sound like every woman's first husband? To coin a phrase.

    [ Parent ]
    Pundits like (5.00 / 17) (#3)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:53:40 AM EST
    Al Hunt don't seem to understand the concept of backfiring.

    Yes, he can say that there was no sexism, and that complaints about it are only "whining". But it's funny how the public can in general see through through pundit bias.

    The real effect of his comments is simply to make those who already agree with him -- Obama supporters -- feel more convinced of their righteousness (one of their more attractive traits, of course), but to make any independent or opposed person lose respect for his opinion.

    And of course his quoting the Pew Center regarding media bias only further underscores both his and the Pew Center's lack of credibility (though one wonders how the Pew Center might fail in any way in objectivity -- aren't they basically academics, and aren't academics unfailingly fair and objective in their assessments?)

    I'm sure that the public at large is going to buy the claim of the Pew Center's report that there was no bias for Obama or against Hillary. Who are they going to believe, a bunch of pointy head quasi-academics, or their own eyes?

    A recent article by Al Hunt writing on the (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:25 AM EST
    illness of Ted Kennedy was so transparent in his adulation of all things Jack Kennedy and the mantle bestowed on Obama that I knew he was no longer credible. Years ago when he wrote for the Wall Street Journal, I believed he was the only voice of sanity over there.  No more!


    [ Parent ]
    The fool Al Hunt is confusing (5.00 / 5) (#212)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:21:05 AM EST
    two different measures here.  He cites a study measuring positive vs. negative -- and it (I went to the link) defines negative coverage as, say, coverage of the Rev. Wright contretemps.  

    In sum, that study does not assess sexism at all.  But Hunt then confuses the two.  That entirely ignores how much of the entirety of negative coverage of Clinton was sexist -- as compared to, say, negative coverage of her stance on issues.

    So his post is foolish and useless, which puts it right up there with the illogical crap that passes as journalism almost everywhere in media already.

    Jeesh, I wish these people would take logic courses and statistical courses and learn how to read results.

    [ Parent ]

    Uck. (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:54:39 AM EST
    I read the article.  He declared the fight for gender equality over.  Time to turn the page and move one.

    Whine appears to be the current theme. (5.00 / 29) (#5)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:56:02 AM EST
    Writing only for myself . . .
    It appears as if the daily whiffle ball thrown by Obama apologists is now & will be for some time the accusation of whining.  It is a common complaint of misogynist men that women, in general, whine & cry & pout during arguments & serious discussions.  The low information trolls who cut & paste here at TL have been on the whine theme for about a week.  So now, apparently, it's on the Obama-fax sent to all their media thugs.

    This theme is also related to the sore winner concept, which is a constant from the trolls here & in the comments sections of the various "news" sites that I sometimes read.  The sore winner gig began back in 2000 with the Bu$hInc gang.  It results from the internalized knowledge that your team won by cheating.  It is tough to acknowledge that you & your colleagues are just plain thugs, so the most effective method to elevate your own puny ego is to demean the opponent--allow yourself to pretend that they grovel & "whine" in the face of your own superior ability to cheat.  That's because the opponent "deserved" to lose.

    So much for my semi-professional, internet-based, remote psychoanalysis of the Obama-nation.

    Wow! (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:05:00 AM EST
    That's about as dead on as you can get.

    Well-played.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, there's more. (5.00 / 16) (#16)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:17:59 AM EST
    When dealing with the "bellowing," angry, dominant male figure, children also "whine."

    These things are related & connected by the need for verbally ineffective people (rhetorically challenged) to elevate themselves by demeaning others. Rather than attempting to promote the weak or wrong or untrue debating points for their not-so-useful concepts, its more successful to use slams & put-downs of the opponent--who then becomes an "enemy."  Big Tent touched on this a few weeks ago with a comment about the "shirts & skins" mentality of the primary contests.  [And, if you remember the playground mentality of these folks, it's not possible for the females to be "skins."]  He also had some good ground on the "triumphalism," and looking up the word "triumph" will explain a great deal of the lame stream media comments on Sen. Obama's winning strategies.

    So, we see an on-going effort to belittle the losers of the contest because there is no way to effectively elevate the winner's own status since the win resulted from simple cheating.

    Bu$h-bot, meet our Democratic Party version.

    [ Parent ]

    It is indeed a Bushian tactic... (5.00 / 9) (#22)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:24:21 AM EST
    like calling people nicknames, or farting during a conversation. Demeaning and diminutizing one's opponent is what bullies like the media and the Obamans do.

    I am really enjoying your analysis on this. Thank you.

    [ Parent ]

    I have noticed that when Obama (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:01:04 AM EST
    is seen as inexperienced his minions immediately change the subject to the person making the accusation.  For example, Clinton didn't have experience, she gave teas and lied about Tuzla.  Now with McCain, it is "he's so old"  Right from the GOP playbook.

    [ Parent ]
    Not McCain (2.33 / 3) (#92)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:42:19 AM EST
    We cannot underestimate how distasteful the Republican Party is to the general public, something like 80% of Americans are unhappy with the direction of the country. The massive sexism spewed by the Republicans in their policy and platform has gone unchallenged for too long. Now is the time to push back on McCain's attempts to portray himself as different from Bush even while he is Bush's most steadfast supporter to stay in Iraq for years and years. His bomb, bomb, bomb Iran is just one example of McCain's own errors. It is he who will be responsible for his own loss and it is his opponnent that has the stong anti-Washington message.

    [ Parent ]
    How (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:00 AM EST
    is this a response to wurman's comment?  And what's more, what credibility is the Democratic Party going to have if they want to confront the Republicans about sexism?  Not that I think they'll bother, of course, but after this primary season, it's close to a pot, kettle situation.

    [ Parent ]
    Political Sensitivity Training (4.00 / 2) (#109)
    by 1jane on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:59:36 AM EST
    began back in February by the RNC when they commissioned polling and focus groups to determine the boundaries of attacking a female or AA candidate. McCain has been instructed to charge back at any insinuation or accussation of sexism or racism. He's been instructed not to allow the Republican Party to be "macacaed." The Republican sratagists are very aware that the politically correct police will be out in force and their standards will be very narrow. McCain is forced to be sensitive to the tone of his opponent and stick to the substance of the discussion because he will be running against an "historical first."

    [ Parent ]
    Well, good (5.00 / 5) (#115)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:03:40 AM EST
    Even if his motives are purely self-interested, how is it a bad thing for McCain to have to watch what he says?

    [ Parent ]
    Too bad Obama (5.00 / 5) (#147)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:25:08 AM EST
    didn't take that training.

    [ Parent ]
    So the kind of sexism and misogyny that I need (5.00 / 6) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:38:17 AM EST
    to worry about is the GOP covered up variety?  It is much worse than the Democratic Primary variety that is in my face?

    [ Parent ]
    It Is A Shame That The Democratic (5.00 / 9) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:43:55 AM EST
    did not chose to take sensitvity training. The politically correct police within the Democratic Party failed big time to stand up for women and continue to fail each and every time they allow their Democratic women voters to be described as whiney and tactically accept the sexism that went on before, during and after the primary.

    Attempting to divert the conversation to the Republicans are worse will not do anything to correct the existing promblems within the Democratic Party. I for one do not want the very real problem to be kicked under the rug.

    [ Parent ]

    Please check topic before trolling (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:02:41 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I have recenlty spoken to a number (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    of people who were so disappointed in the "way" Hillary lost that they will either not vote, or vote for McCain. And these were young men and women.  The GOP is not stupid, they will have air brushed McCain, so that people who don't pay much attention to politics will buy the media hype on him in the same way the young bought the hype on Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    the problem for Obama is (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:09:34 AM EST
    McCain is as much of a known quantity as you will ever find.  not much selling will be needed and the flip side of that is that the Obama campaign will have a very hard time making people see McCain as "Bushs 3rd" of any of the other stuff they will try.  
    the fact is the public knows McCain far better than they know Obama.


    [ Parent ]
    He better be careful with the 3rd term idea (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:19:43 AM EST
    One of Mccain's soft points is that McCain is suspect among conservatives.  Tabg him with bush and he might just get extra votes.

    Bush would proabably like to see Mccain win too just to avoid a conviction or investigation of himself.

    [ Parent ]

    You nailed it... (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    Bush would proabably like to see Mccain win too just to avoid a conviction or investigation of himself.

    I believe that is the ONLY reason Bush is supporting McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder how dependable (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:48:40 AM EST
    that reasoning is.  if McCain really wanted to "bring the country together" can you think of a better way?
    he is going to have a heavily democratic congress.
    in fact, THAT is the good news of  this election.
    we should be excited about the fact that Obama is going to bring out millions of new voters.  we are going to see something of a tsunami (to use an overused term) this year.
    I personally do not think Obama will win but I think a veto proof senate majority is not out of the realm of possibility.
    progress is made by steps.  this year will be a big step.

    [ Parent ]
    Not about McCain... (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:47 AM EST
    As far as I can tell, sexism does not recognise party affiliation.

    [ Parent ]
    It's practically Ashcroftian (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:51:05 AM EST
    in its attempt to use linguistic markers to shift the discussion back to the margins.

    Next up, we'll be back to the "hysterical railings" frame.

    Then what, Mr. Lakoff?

    [ Parent ]

    There may be a devolution of terms. (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:01 AM EST
    The lame stream media seem to take their cues, now, from the commenters & posters at various websites.  The macho-man tends to make his enemy feminine, then childish, then infantile.

    Moving downward, in sort of playground & schoolyard mentality, the next demeaning term will most likely be----
    "cry-baby."

    Then, not in print, usually, or on the air, ever, the next devolvement will be the term for felines or female pudenda.


    [ Parent ]

    There's actually ... (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:30 AM EST
    an anthropological term for this:

    "Verbal mounting rituals."

    [ Parent ]

    This is reminding me of that quote (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:40 AM EST
    from Samuel Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

    [ Parent ]
    I'm avoiding "sports" analogies. (none / 0) (#168)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:41:34 AM EST
    Some posters here object to using sports & politics as similar behaviors. Much of my discussion of these media terms (as applied by the pundit class) comes from various studies of male sports behaviors & some aspects of competitive game theory.

    Thanks much.  Your descriptor is absolutely correct.

    [ Parent ]

    I think you nailed it. n/t (none / 0) (#10)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:02:23 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    thats some pretty clear (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:08:55 AM EST
    thinking.
    for a monday morning.

    [ Parent ]
    The wrong word to use (5.00 / 18) (#7)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 07:58:41 AM EST
    When I started reading your post, and whiny jumped out at me as  is this the new word to put down sexism? There is a poster here who uses it all the time as a put down. I believe they are trying to say we are little kids who are not getting our way because the big boys will not let us. I guess that makes the big boys bullies. Yeah, I can see MSNBC being bullies.

    didn't lose the Democratic presidential nomination because she is a woman, and gender no longer is a big deal in American elections.
    No, she lost because of media interference, non support by her own party who ignored the sexism in the media, the transfer of the AA vote and because her advisors did not play the delegate game right at the beginning.

     At any rate, this is not going to help the Obama situation with women as the media is the one who is whiny. They just keep digging.

    Here's the thing... (5.00 / 23) (#15)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:10:19 AM EST
    media apologists immediately try to defuse the claims of sexism by saying "Well, that's not why she lost."

    While that is true, it's a straw man.

    No one is claiming that Hillary Clinton lost because of sexism. It is being raised because it's still an obvious societal elephant that everyone is pretending has left the room.

    That tactic sure puts people on the defensive, though, doesn't it? Which is exactly why media apologists and Obama trolls use it.

    We know exactly why she "lost," and it doesn't bear too close examination.


    [ Parent ]

    Ironically, it might be (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:42:24 AM EST
    why he loses in November, if he doesn't pull it together and get control of the 'messaging.'

    Why isn't his campaign manager emailing the hordes with the new tpm that they should not be further alienating potential female voters?

    I'd like to think it's because they realize that they don't really get what's going on and are afraid of making more boneheaded statements.  But I fear that they're in 'hope' mode still; they hope we'll all just fade away and stop impeding the path of the The One with our silly, whiny complaints.

    [ Parent ]

    They believe their own propaganda. (5.00 / 14) (#46)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:49:01 AM EST
    Claire McCaskill is an outlier, I believe, although she is right on the money.

    They don't need us. We are old news. They just want us to go away.

    They believe in their "new" coalition of AA's, young people and wealthy Democrats.

    Suzanne Malveaux said as much last week - there will be no outreach to HRC's voters. Expect more blackmail, more insults and more dismissiveness from the Obama campaign and supporters.

    And yes, more sexism.

    Is it November yet?

    [ Parent ]

    I hope you're wrong. (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:00 AM EST
    That coalition was barely half of the Democratic Party.

    [ Parent ]
    Not even close (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:10:38 AM EST
    to barely half, IMHO. The size of Obama's coalition, I think we'll find in November, has been greatly exaggerated by his caucus wins in red states, and by primary wins in states with a disproportionately large percentage of AA's.

    But I'm just looking at how Obama himself, and his campaign staff and surrogates, are behaving towards Clinton Dems.

    They seem determined to drive them towards McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know if they counted the independents (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:28:21 AM EST
    separately but that is the big question.  Whose boat will they land in? In the last week or so, several of my daughters friends, both indies and moderate GOP said they would have voted for Clinton, but not Obama.  It is the experience thing for them.  We will see how the economy and Iraq and swiftboating plays out.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you're right on this. (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by jackyt on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:29:05 AM EST
    Are the DNC and the Obama campaign deliberately trying to lose? Gore won the popular vote by 500,000 in 2000. Now take even 10% of Hillary's reliable dem voters out of the equation. (1.8 mil). Try 25% (4.5 mil). No way calling us whiny can be a winning strategy.

    [ Parent ]
    Dem party leaders and the Establishment (5.00 / 16) (#53)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:59 AM EST
    that ran a newbie senator are just as much to blame as the media for minimizing Obama's sexist remarks and race-baiting.
    Whatever degree of divisiveness necessary to "nominate" Obama by demonizing and discrediting the Clintons. And now these same Dems speak of "unity"?? - ha!
    PUMA!

    They never wanted unity. They wanted Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Sexism--in politics and in the courts (5.00 / 10) (#8)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:00:05 AM EST
    Sexism is an insidious force, pervading everything. If it is still the last "acceptable" bastion of bigotry--which apparently it is--it is a force that is still in the process of moving through the system, pervading everything. The relentless misogyny expressed on MSNBC is just a symptom of a larger societal value system, a systemic bigotry against women. From dismissive attitudes about women's right to control their own reproductive rights to the right of women to be respected as political leaders to the right of women to defend themselves in court against the ultimate violation of rape.

    It is shocking to me that any judge could rule that a female rape victim doesn't have the right to use the word "rape" while testifying about the crime perpetrated against her. It defies belief that a judge could rule that the words "rape" and "sexual assault" are prohibited during testimony from a victim to describe a horrific crime of--well--RAPE.

    Maybe Jeralyn could address this court ruling in a later post. I'd be very interested in hearing her take on it. Whether it ultimately is argued as a First Amendment right, or an Equal Rights violation, it is nonetheless an obviously shocking assault on the victims of rape (mostly women) and their right to justice.

    Judges stir controversy by barring the word 'rape' in court
    By Tony Rizzo | Kansas City Star
    It's the only way Tory Bowen knows to honestly describe what happened to her. She was raped.

    But a judge prohibited her from uttering the word "rape" in front of a jury. The term "sexual assault" also was taboo, and Bowen could not refer to herself as a victim or use the word "assailant" to describe the man who allegedly raped her.

    The defendant's presumption of innocence and right to a fair trial trumps Bowen's right of free speech, said the Lincoln, Neb., judge who issued the order.

    Bowen's case is part of what some prosecutors and victim advocates see as a national trend in sexual assault cases. "It's a topic that's coming up more and more," said Joshua Marquis, an Oregon prosecutor and a vice president of the National District Attorneys Association.

    In Kansas City, Senior Judge Gene Martin recently issued a similar order for the trial of a man charged with raping a teenager in 2000. Despite the semantic restrictions, the Jackson County jury last week found Ray Slaughter guilty of forcible rape and two counts of forcible sodomy.

    Bowen's case gained national notoriety and drew the attention of free-speech proponents after she filed a lawsuit challenging the judge's actions as a First Amendment violation. A federal appeals court dismissed the suit, but Bowen's attorney plans to petition the U.S. Supreme Court.

    Read the full story at KansasCity.com.

    http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/654147.html

    I don't know if this is uncommon (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:07:01 AM EST
    I know in Michigan a victim of criminal sexual conduct (we don't have "rape" in the penal code) is referred to as a "complaining witness" until the time guilt is proven.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for the input... (5.00 / 9) (#55)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:57:28 AM EST
    There is something inherently wrong with prohibiting the word "rape" to describe "rape." It's too provocative? Well, it's a serious allegation, a serious accusation to begin with; and there are legal and criminal penalties for making the charge falsely. So, by making the charge of "rape" the victim puts herself in legal jeopardy by the very act of making the accusation. To further penalize a victim by prohibiting her from naming the crime committed against her, or to force her to use soothing linguistic synonyms like "criminal sexual conduct"--which, let's be honest, could mean anything from an inappropriate touch in a mall, to a violent physical attack which puts one in the hospital for months, and leaves them physically and psychically scarred for life-- is, to me, the horrifying equivalent of saying, "you're just whining!"

    Words have meaning.

    Let me repeat that: Words have meaning.

    That's WHY such soothing equivalencies and the prohibition of the word RAPE during court testimony. Sure, the victim can describe the details so the jury gets the message, but the very fact that jurists feel the need to provide linguistic synonyms is an act of dismissiveness about the violence of the crime, and an act of dismissiveness toward the victims--mostly women--of the particular crime.

    IF THE VICTIMS OF RAPE WERE GENERALLY MEN, the word "rape" would likely be supplanted with much stronger words as an equivalence...and it would be a death penalty crime, and there would be no such prohibition on the word "rape" as inflammatory or perjorative to the defense.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't disagree (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:08:38 AM EST
    And it is sexist - someone who was mugged can say they were "robbed" and/or "assaulted".  Someone who was knifed or shot or poisoned (and lived to tell about it) can say that a defendant "tried to kill them."

    And frankly, if there were a whole lot of things that happened to men in great numbers, our whole system (legal, work, family, social structure) would be completely different (if men got pregnant, child care would be a foregone conclusion and birth control would be given out for free on the corner).

    [ Parent ]

    Yes!!! And if men got pregnant . . . (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    . . . abortion would be a sacrament in all churches.  [Somebody I can't recall from the 1960s]

    [ Parent ]
    Florynce R. Kennedy (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:31:49 AM EST
    "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

    Molly Ivins once said something like, If men were the ones giving birth, Congress would have classified pregnancy as a sexually-transmitted disease.  I've never been able to find the exact quote.  

    [ Parent ]

    I know this is not what you mean (none / 0) (#209)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:17:28 AM EST
    but I couldnt resist:

    NEWS OF THE WORLD

    [ Parent ]

    I don't agree with this line of reasoning (none / 0) (#129)
    by befuddledvoter on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:11:27 AM EST
    In court, words have precise meaning in the legal sense.  For a "victim" to state she was raped allows the "victim" to invade the province of the jury.  It is up to the jury to decide, based on the evidence, whether or not the person was raped.  It is a legal conclusion that only the jury can render.  

    Note, also, the same rules apply to male rape "victims."  

    [ Parent ]

    next we'll euphemise murder as... (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by jackyt on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:39:00 AM EST
    rendered breathless (just to not prejudice the jury, don'tcha know).

    [ Parent ]
    So, this works for you? (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:10:12 AM EST
    "To force a victim to say, `when the defendant and I had sexual intercourse' is just absurd," he said.


    [ Parent ]
    True (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by cmugirl on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:16:18 AM EST
    But then, doesn't the same standard apply to murder victim?

    [ Parent ]
    in the end (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:07:11 AM EST
    the media is going to create a huge ditch for the voters to throw Obama into on election day it seems. Their disrepect of the voters and their pushing of Obama is one toxic combination.

    Well, the media will dig the ditch and the repubs (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:21:40 AM EST
    will do the burying with the 527's.  Monumental landslide, McCain's favor, my prediction.

    [ Parent ]
    The media is destroying (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by Virginialass on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:21:26 AM EST
    their own candidate but they are too silly to see it. By trivializing the Hillary supporters feelings about sexism in the primary campaign is not going to woo us to vote for him. I am trying so hard to want to vote for Obama. I am just getting angrier and angrier. I am sure I am not the only one who is feeling this.

    If they were smart they will make a public appology to all the women voters about their sexist comments. Obama should appologize for not defending her as she has with the racial issues that have popped up during the campaign.

    We have become so desenstized to these issues because we experience it all the time with the media. All the time. I have learned to ignore it myself and actually really started to take note during this campaign and how it affected Hillary's votes. I have 3 daughters and I am so sad she is not going to be President. I think she would have made a world of difference to women in this country. My daughters cried when I told them she was out of the race. They took it harder than I did. I told them they could be President someday and now they are asking me all kinds of questions about what they need to do to become President.

    Thank you Hillary for the inspiration you have given me to raise three strong independent daughters. Unlike me their goals are high and realistic to them!!

    [ Parent ]

    Senator McCaskill gets it. (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:19:35 AM EST

    The key, Ms. McCaskill said, is approaching Mrs. Clinton's supporters with utmost humility. And, Ms. Backus added, that is not always the strongest suit of the young people who are some of Mr. Obama's most enthusiastic supporters.

    "Not nyeh nyeh nyeh nyeh," Ms. McCaskill said, making a taunting sound. "We need them very, very badly, and we shouldn't be able to be afraid to say that we need them."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/07/us/politics/07women.html?pagewanted=print

    Humility means not denigrating those who speak about sexism.  It means listening.  

    Hunt sounds like a sexist.

    McGaskill (5.00 / 9) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:22:05 AM EST
    is a bad emmisary on the issue, but in the end, probably the best Obama can do.


    [ Parent ]
    Too bad Senator McCaskill (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by Radical Faith on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:38:46 AM EST
    made a rather nasty and needless remark about Senator Clinton's husband during the campaign. Otherwise, her words that you note here might have been more helpful.

    Since  her unfortunate comment about Bill was the first thing that came to mind when I read her admonition to the taunters, I'll have to agree with Edgar08 and reiterate she's probably not the best emissary.

    [ Parent ]

    My point is not about (none / 0) (#62)
    by TomP on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:06:55 AM EST
    an emissary.  It's about her words.


    [ Parent ]
    Humility (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by daring grace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:25 AM EST
    is a rare and welcome concept to introduce to political discourse.

    Words matter, indeed.

    [ Parent ]

    And my point is (5.00 / 6) (#107)
    by Radical Faith on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:56:43 AM EST
    even if her words are sincere and are meant to not only tone down the gloating of certain Obama supporters but to also assuage the boiling resentment of many Clinton supporters, they carry little weight due to her previous statements.

    But all that aside, do you think the "nyeh, nyeh, nyeh" crowd McCaskill is addressing is even capable of listening to her words? I believe most of them are too happily rolling in the sexist and/or anti-Clinton muck to care.

    [ Parent ]

    Working to Reconcile and Collaborate (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by daring grace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    has to start somewhere.

    There will always be elements of both campaigns that can't or won't participate, who will stand apart and intensify the divide. And that's unfortunate for unity efforts and for efforts to defeat the Republicans in November.

    But not everyone in the Obama camp hates Hillary and her supporters. I don't.

    I'm not aware of Senator McCaskill's other remarks, so I can't speak to that, but I find her suggestion of humility very powerful.

    [ Parent ]

    The "we" and "them" ruins it. (5.00 / 11) (#43)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:47:04 AM EST
    Aren't we all on the same side? The "we" and "them" underscores that the Clinton wing of the party has been externalized and is just a tool to be used and discarded when done. It certainly sends the message that the Obama-Kennedys have no intention of sharing power or re-annealing the party into a whole.

    I would be saying that we are all Democrats and have to pull together to achieve our common goals.

    [ Parent ]

    Approach them with the utmost humility (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by bmc on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:38 AM EST
    McCaskill thinks that approaching Clinton supporters with the "utmost humility" is going to address the former "sweetie" arrogance? Is it going to soothe our fury over the 16 months of hate-speech I was subjected to from Obama supporters at Orange sites, or other faux progressive sites? The litany of insulting hate speech from Matthews, Olbermann, Barnicle, Carlson, Scarborough and the rest of the "frat pack" at GE's Animal House Network? Is approaching me with the "utmost humility" going to excuse Obama's disgraceful refusal to shake the hand of Sen. Clinton in the Senate chamber while McCaskill smirked on the fringes?

    Clair, oh, Claire. Sweetie, you're drunk with hubris, and it shows. "Utmost humility?" Too late, Sweetie Claire. We have seen the utmost arrogance already, so the utmost "humility" would obviously be fake.

    [ Parent ]

    Claire (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    is shopping for drapes for the VP residence.  that is why she wants to play nice.

    [ Parent ]
    I think McCaskill (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:46:12 AM EST
    would be a perfect choice for Obama's VP. 8^)

    [ Parent ]
    from what I know of her from (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:48:22 AM EST
    my neighbors across the border she would be a perfect match.
    that was not a compliment.

    [ Parent ]
    Neither was mine. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:24:54 AM EST
    I already emailed her and "thanked" her for reaching out to me.

    [ Parent ]
    Could Be That She Is Trying To (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:24 AM EST
    backtract so that she won't go down in history as a one term senator. If Obama loses, Claire's political career is IMO in jeopardy.

    [ Parent ]
    she sure isnt (5.00 / 0) (#206)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:13:35 AM EST
    liked much by the people I know.

    [ Parent ]
    Misery (5.00 / 6) (#18)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:20:49 AM EST
    At some point it became something people felt compelled to talk about.  And to the degree that it is relevant, it became a contest of sorts.

    Who is the bigger victim of intolerance?   What remains the larger problem in society, racism or sexism?

    Well.  A signpost on that highway is now this sudden realization.  No one can ever say someone else is whining about racism without appearing insensitive to the issue if not complicit.

    Just the simple fact that one can say "whining about sexism" and one may not say "whining about racism" seems to be a large piece of the puzzle.

    Don't be politicallly correct (none / 0) (#36)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:40:53 AM EST
    It is the same thing as your saying relative to racism. On this board alone, you have people that say the exact same thing about racism that you are saying others say about sexism.  I have seen, "I am tired of being accused of being a racist."  Well what is the difference?  You discount comments of racism and another is discounting comments of sexism, and both are just unacceptable.

    [ Parent ]
    Racism isn't discounted. Not at all. (5.00 / 9) (#44)
    by rooge04 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:48:29 AM EST
    FALSE accusations of racism, based SOLELY on not voting for Obama is what bothers me.

    Being a person of color and all.

    [ Parent ]

    Saying "I am tired of being (5.00 / 8) (#45)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:48:59 AM EST
    called a racist" Is different than saying people whine about racism.


    [ Parent ]
    Umm (none / 0) (#52)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:38 AM EST
    How many times do you hear and read he needs to stop pulling the race card.  I am not sure what the race card is, but to me it always sounded a little bit like this person is saying "stop your whining"  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm sorry you don't see it (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:02:11 AM EST
    When I say someone is playing the race card, that doesn't mean I'm denying the problem exists in our society.

    When someone refers to "whining about sexism", the distinct impression is given that one does not believe the issue is a real issue.

    In one circumstance, the accusation is taken seriously, assessed and then an opinion is made about it.  And sometimes it is playing the race card.

    In the other circumstance, the accusation is not taken seriously, one is merely whining.

    [ Parent ]

    Playing the race card is an attack (none / 0) (#137)
    by hairspray on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:18:11 AM EST
    strategy.  Whining about racism is a victim strategy.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly... (5.00 / 5) (#186)
    by sander60tx on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:31 AM EST
    This weekend I foolishly replied to a diary at the orange place entitled "Is it safe to come back?"  Note how I was attacked in my response... you'll see precisely the same kind of tactic as has been discussed here, only more vicious.  I wasn't even discussing sexism, but I have been similarly attacked there for mentioning it as well.  You see the Clintons (and now her followers) are always "playing the victim" and they're "sick and tired of that" over there!  But of course, when they falsely accuse Clinton of saying something racist, that's not whining and there're not playing the victim at all.

    My comment:

    In other words, you're saying (10+ / 0-)
    that no, it's not safe to come back.  I figured as much.

    The first reply:

    no (21+ / 0-)
    I'd say it is safe to come back, but leave the hypocritical, self-righteous "shame on you" crap at the door, because Hillary and her supporters are much more guilty of divisiveness and "not knowing who the enemy is" than people on here. Seriously, DK has less than 1% of the impact that Hillary and Bill Clinton have, I think their nasty scorch the earth tactics are just a LITTLE worse than some pissed off Obama or Edwards supporters on here responding to those attacks.

    So it is perfectly safe to come back, just don't act self-righteous, don't be a hypocrite, and don't play the victim.

    So how does one discuss sexism without inviting such accusations?  I looked up victim in the dictionary:

    somebody who or something that is adversely affected by an action or circumstance

    somebody who experiences misfortune and feels helpless to remedy it

    It's very frustrating because in trying to do something about being "adversely affected" by sexism, one is made more "helpless" by the accusation of whining, etc.  I mostly stay away from the Orange place, partly because of the abuse, but also because it seems so difficult to get through to anybody over there.

    [ Parent ]

    Both need to be discussed. (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:51:56 AM EST
    Your point is well taken. The way forward is to bring both fully out in the open. If Clinton-backers were truly racist, point it out with evidence. There seems to be no shortage of evidence of sexism among Obama-supporters but certainly not all.

    [ Parent ]
    People do call it out (none / 0) (#54)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:55:59 AM EST
    But it is discounted, as unfortuantely sexism is often discounted at sites like huffingtonpost.  I saw people say that her statement of hard working white americans wasn't racist.  Well if you don't think it is, okay, but I do.

    [ Parent ]
    The people who write the exit poll questions (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:06:48 AM EST
    Themselves are being racist then.

    She framed the issue no differently than anyone else talking about exit polls.


    [ Parent ]

    Is "typical white woman" racist? (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:38:45 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    saying "typical" anything (5.00 / 0) (#185)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:51:29 AM EST
    in a racially charged environment is a bad idea.

    [ Parent ]
    Within the context of the speech (none / 0) (#176)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:45:16 AM EST
    No

    [ Parent ]
    Why not? (5.00 / 3) (#195)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:04:10 AM EST
    I mean I do understand that Obama didn't intend to make a racist statement, but can you accept that someone who might see themselves falling into that category might see it as such, especially since one of the qualities being attributed to that "typical white woman" was saying racist things about black men? Or if you don't want to label it racist, can you at least see how it might be considered offensive?

    [ Parent ]
    Straw man arguement (none / 0) (#187)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:53:48 AM EST
    Firt Hillary is a very smart woman, and as someone who is obviously supported civil rights and black americans for a long time, she has obviously talked to a few of us.  I am guessing through those many conversations she would understand that we would find this kind of language insulting and wrong.  I am sure she understands how language and words are used daily to put down many different groups and to insinuate a different then mentality.

    [ Parent ]
    I was under the impression (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by tree on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM EST
    that she apologized for her bad phrasing on that quote.

    [ Parent ]
    well then everyone else (none / 0) (#196)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:04:44 AM EST
    including those writing exit poll analysis done on this blog must be mired in ignorance and have no idea what they are saying.

    A truly brilliant woman she is though!!  She did follow up and say it was wrong.  Wrong because the color of anyone's skin has nothing at all to do with why the voters in question still rejected obama even after he was elevated to media darling front runner status.

    [ Parent ]

    hard working white americans (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:39 AM EST
    the point she was trying to make will be clear in Nov.


    [ Parent ]
    you also play the Race Card (5.00 / 6) (#70)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:15:39 AM EST
    >>>>I saw people say that her statement of hard working white americans wasn't racist.  Well if you don't think it is, okay, but I do.

    Hillary was citing exit polling data that "hard working white Americans" weren't supporting Obama. Who can blame them? - after he called Democrats "racists" for not supporting him.

    Hard working Black Americans support Obama - but that statement isn't considered racist. And the 95% of Blacks that support Obama aren't considered racists.

    [ Parent ]

    Your argument seems to be (5.00 / 7) (#75)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:23:48 AM EST
    it's ok to be sexist, because some people are racist.  Or to be more accurate, you think we shouldn't talk about people who deny sexism, because some people deny racism?

    Seriously?  This is the 'ism' competition discussed elsewhere on this thread.  Intellectually, it's a red herring.  Practically, it won't win Obama any support.

    Even if I agreed it was true, the sexism of this campaign is not reduced one iota just because there is also racism.

    [ Parent ]

    Bottom line, (5.00 / 9) (#180)
    by Firefly4625 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    it seems to me, is that RACISM has been treated by the entire corporate media, the Obama campaign and all Obama supporters as a REAL ISSUE - well, because IT IS a real issue, but also because it worked to Obama's advantage and Hillary's disadvantage.

    At the same time, SEXISM has been treated by the same agencies of influence (mostly male good ol' boys) as a NON-ISSUE, a "whiny" issue - because THAT worked to Obama's advantage and Hillary's disadvantage.

    [ Parent ]

    Not at all (none / 0) (#175)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:44:08 AM EST
    My point is that we are weaker by discounting the other.  I never implied that sexism is not present or rears its ugly head daily.  I would ask that you point out where I did that, I would never want to imply such these (seriouslly).

    [ Parent ]
    One difference (5.00 / 13) (#63)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:07:00 AM EST
    (and there are many) is that the DNC and MSM have jumped, no, fallen all over themselves to defend against any implication of racism, real or not.

    Whoever coined the term 'malign acceptance of sexism' is brilliant, because it sums up the behavior of Obama, the DNC and the MSM.  Yet it does not go far enough to describe this election, as he and his supporters were delighted, simply delighted, to leverage sexism in any form and from any source.

    And now, with a dawning and belated realization that that may not have been the best strategy, the responses offered are 1) you're whiners; 2) a national conversation; and 3) 'but I have daughters!'

    And it's been the Republicans, yes the Republicans, who saw the problem and raced to address it first.  Is their strategy anything but lip service?  No, of course not.  But when the alternative is being punched in the face and then derided for your two black eyes by your own party, might it be preferable?

    [ Parent ]

    exactly!! (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:19:00 AM EST
    Not another dime for the DNC! which lacks money for the convention and has cancelled 24 parties.
    Let them eat cake!

    [ Parent ]
    How do you know (none / 0) (#77)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:27:23 AM EST
    that the DNC has cancelled parties?  Just curious.

    [ Parent ]
    Read this (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by echinopsia on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:35:47 AM EST
    been reported (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:39:12 AM EST
    all over

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks! (none / 0) (#110)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:59:59 AM EST
    I stopped reading all over sometime before the Ohio primary, so I appreciate the link.  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    HA (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:06:08 AM EST
    I have to since I stopped watching Cable news.

    [ Parent ]
    oops! 56 parties were cancelled, not 24 (none / 0) (#200)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 11:09:27 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What is discounted (5.00 / 6) (#80)
    by alsace on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:29:50 AM EST
    is the faulty logic that says:
    Racists don't support Obama.
    You don't support Obama.
    Ergo, you are a racist.


    [ Parent ]
    Just heard on morning radio (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:21:58 AM EST
    that the sexism thing wasn't that big a deal.

    Seems we made most of it up.

    The media doesn't want to admit (5.00 / 9) (#23)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:27:09 AM EST
    its own guilt. They're all trying to cover it up and pretend it never happened.

    "We have always been at war with East Asia."

    [ Parent ]

    I would love (5.00 / 11) (#27)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:35:47 AM EST
    to get a precise measure of just how much more sexism it would take to be a big deal to these people.  Just so we'd know exactly when we little ladies were allowed to have the vapors.

    [ Parent ]
    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:50:14 AM EST
    it would take being applied to someone besides a Clinton for the media to notice.

    [ Parent ]
    Not even then... (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 08:53:02 AM EST
    Sorry...but I sincerely doubt folks will wake up to it any time soon.

    "What?!? You got your vote. What else could you possibly want???"

    [ Parent ]

    Bu it is, (5.00 / 10) (#58)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:04:38 AM EST
    every day, all across America.

    The media refuses to acknowledge it because they are complicit.

    Why hasn't the ERA passed? Why are woman STILL not getting equal pay for equal work? Why are abortion rights slowly being eroded in state after state? Why is maternity leave disappearing from corporate benefits packages - and wh