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Unity: The Day After

Hillary Clinton gave a great speech yesterday. And Unity is at hand . . .

I'd like to interrupt this Unity Day message with a small reminder to the Barack Obama campaign and the Democratic Party - unless he picks Hillary Clinton as his running mate - the day he announces his Vice Presidential candidate will be a day of disunity.

I hope someone is thinking about that. Because since today is "Why Hillary Lost" Day in the Media, they need to remember that Hillary Clinton got half of the votes. Yes, she lost . . . barely. Obama is in a tight race with John McCain and needs a unified Democratic Party and if he is set on NOT picking Hillary Clinton as his VP, I hope he has a plan for re-unifying the Party the day after he insists on NOT unifying, indeed, in dividing the Party by not choosing Hillary Clinton as his VP.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    I think you may mean (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:00:14 AM EST
    indeed, in dividing the Party by NOT choosing Hillary Clinton as his VP.

    In which case I wholeheartedly agree.  I think Obama may be sorry she did so well yesterday.

    Hey, she's under consideration. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:01:42 AM EST
    Whadda ya want?

    But first (5.00 / 5) (#127)
    by vigkat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:09:28 AM EST
    Hillary apparently has more penance to serve. Dianne Feinstein is on This Week with Georgie.  They are spelling it all out.  I was surprised to hear george ask, "what must Obama do now"?  Dianne is explaining that it will take Hillary's help in bringing her supporters to Obama's camp.  George shows a clip of Carter stating Hillary would be bad for Obama's ticket and Dianne is disagreeing.  George seems to be surprised that Dianne insists Hillary does have a major following.  Now Hillary is being described by George as baggage for Obama.  Nothing seems to have changed.  Same as last week, same as it ever was.  

    [ Parent ]
    I revert (5.00 / 7) (#149)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:21:10 AM EST
    of all the women who have worked in the party for decades, of all the women who are professional, he picks Caroline Kennedy to represent "women" on the committee?  What the heck is that saying?   What political qualifications does she have?  These guys are so bonkers they don't get it.  

    [ Parent ]
    He should have picked Barbara Mikulski... (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:42:19 AM EST
    ...but then she might have advocated for Clinton, and we mustn't have that.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope his plan is not (5.00 / 8) (#3)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:01:46 AM EST
    to make Hillary give another great speech consoling/rallying her supporters the day after he picks Sebelius as VP.  You only get to go to that well once.

    I suspect in that event (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:03:04 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton's speech might not be quite so rousing on his behalf.  

    [ Parent ]
    Heh. I would bet not. (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:06:02 AM EST
    Really, can you imagine making her and Chelsea go out and campaign at all for an Obama/Sebelius ticket?  I hope to god that is not the plan.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama/Sebelius (4.84 / 13) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:06:13 AM EST
    is about the worst ticket that I can imagine. It looks like pandering to women, brings a candidate who won't carry their own state and doesn't help him in any way with all his national security weaknesses.

    [ Parent ]
    My worst nightmare (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:11:32 AM EST
    Which means it will probably happen.

    Obama/Sebelius vs McCain/Hutchison

    [ Parent ]

    KBH (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:31:18 AM EST
    says she doesn't want to be VP, but maybe she's more willing than she has let on. I don't know how the meeting with Sarah Palin in Alaska went.  She would actually draw more of Hillary's supporters, I think.  She's got better environmental creds, although I wished she was more worried about the polar bears than she is. She's pro-life, but then all but a few Republican women are. Her husband is a commercial fisherman.  Can you eat what you catch in the Potomac?

    [ Parent ]
    KBH is a terrifying choice (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:32:26 AM EST
    but she would probably force Obama's hand re Clinton as VP.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain isn't going to name his VP (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:43:43 AM EST
    before the Dems name theirs.  That's the Repub strategic advantage this year since their convention comes after the Dems'.

    So what could happen is if O doesn't have a woman on the ticket, it would leave a huge opening for McC to go after disaffected women by naming one to his ticket -- KBH being the most likely, maybe Gov Palin could do.  It would be the sort of non-insane bold stroke that could galvanize the Repub ticket in what's clearly a Dem year.

    They might even do it, or be compelled to go woman, if O names Sibelius or Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    If he picks Sebelius, he'll lose. (5.00 / 10) (#84)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:45:41 AM EST
    The Hillary supporters will detest him.

    [ Parent ]
    We went over this the other day (none / 0) (#94)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:50:34 AM EST
    here.  

    There is no picking of VPs right now, just talk on the internet and in the MSM.

    O's team isn't stupid, and if they are leaning both against picking Hillary, which I think is almost certainly the case, and also leaning in favor of Sibelius, they know they'd have to carefully prepare the PR ground lest they offend Hillary and her backers with a shutout snub.

    He has two full months to prep the terrain and make it more suitable for the kind of pick he has in mind.  I suspect this will be done.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama (5.00 / 9) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:06:33 AM EST
    has boxed himself into a losing situation with this one. He picks a woman because he thinks it will help him with women but it won't. And he gets a woman who really isn't a very good candidate and adds nothing to the ticket. Obama/Sebelius is a ROTFHLMAO ticket. Will Pelosi's head explode? She didn't think that Obama should pick any woman.

    [ Parent ]
    Won't Work (5.00 / 5) (#152)
    by talex on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:22:52 AM EST
    because it is so transparent. I think he knows he can't plow the ground for two months and then pick another woman (or man) for VP.

    Clinton supporters are smart 'high information' people and won't be fooled by such amateurish tactics. If Obama thinks he can fool us with more of his BS for two months and then have us roll over he is the worst politician of all times!

    As each day passes without him picking Clinton our disdain for him only grows exponentially - not vice versa.

    For Obama it is VP Clinton or nothing at all. If he tries to "prep the terrain" otherwise he will only be prepping his own grave (metaphorically speaking).

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed... (5.00 / 6) (#172)
    by NYCDem11 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:32:54 AM EST
    Each day that does pass and Clinton isn't selected is more time for the hard feelings to cement. I so enjoyed yesterday's speech and know the right thing to do is put the country first and support Obama, but I'm left clinging to the bitterness I feel for our party's passing up on the candidate of a lifetime. In retrospect -- though well said and delivered yesterday -- it just seems silly for the more experienced Hillary to be telling others to vote for Obama. It's a weird perversion of true rank and ability. I'm looking back and wishing the party had the insight to push for Clinton/Obama...and to control the White House for 16 years.

    [ Parent ]
    People will disengage (5.00 / 6) (#198)
    by waldenpond on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:52:06 AM EST
    I know I will.  I don't support Obama without Clinton on the ticket.  The feeling of abandonement by the party, to it's ideals of standing up for the working class and the less unfortunate got pushed aside while the party spent $10's of millions on MTV etc. to appeal to youth.  It bothers me, that someone who represents these ideals, and has worked for them is not wanted.  To reject the symbol of the average joe, is to reject the average joe.

    Both parties have imploded.  The media focuses on the Repubs... but I saw the dissatisfaction with govt (Ds and Rs) and the Dem party not paying attention.

    [ Parent ]

    You hit the sticking point (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by ineedalife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:57:09 AM EST
    know the right thing to do is put the country first and support Obama

    Many people will be struggling wether it is the right choice for the country to put an inexperienced pol who is sort of correct on the issues, or put someone you know can do the job but is wrong on issues. We have a checks and balances government, in theory. So, in the past, people have voted for the person first and issues second for president.

    To the extent that our checks and balances government has broken down, I put the blame at the Democrat's door. Opposition may be difficult but they haven't done it. It is hard to blame Bush for grabbing power, if there is a void there, and the Democrats won't fill it.  Jeez, even the Republican-appointed judiciary has stood up to Bush more.

    [ Parent ]

    "each day passes w/o (none / 0) (#168)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:31:18 AM EST
    picking Clinton".  

    Huh?  It's only early June, ferchrissakes.  

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah So what is your point? (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by talex on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:38:39 AM EST
    I don't know about you Mr. 'ferchrissakes', but for most of us the last two months have gone by awful fast and with summer a few weeks away and a General election unfolding at the same time the next two will pass even faster. We are now in a compressed time frame where every day, every hour, and every minute has increase intensity, relevance and scrutiny attached to it. That is the way it has been in every election from June until convention like forever in case you never noticed.

    [ Parent ]
    KBH is so associated with Bush (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:04:18 AM EST
    that I would think he'd pick someone else. She has said she wants to run for Gov. of Texas. She is also a close, personal friend of Bush, and there are photos of all of them partying, very young and things have been published about them smoking pot and the like back then. I don't think he'd pick her.

    [ Parent ]
    Christie (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:07:14 AM EST
    Todd Whitman. He could pick up NJ with that one and a whole lot of women's votes too.

    [ Parent ]
    This would be genius on McCain's part (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by nulee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:43:52 AM EST
    I think - she has long severed her ties with the Bush admin, and I believe she is pro-choice (right?) and is not too bad on the environment for a Republican.  I think McCain's strongest bet is to bank to the middle and get these swing voters that HRC was drawing in droves.  I think Whitman would do it.

    This would be an incredibly effective way to torpedo Obama-anyone but Hillary ticket.  And Obama may just be clueless enough to let it happen.

    [ Parent ]

    I really don't see how... (5.00 / 3) (#215)
    by ineedalife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:02:47 AM EST
    they overcome Christie's post-9/11 performance. Her knuckling under to Bush's zealots and declaring the air safe at ground zero is a trust-buster.


    [ Parent ]
    If you're a Repub office holder, (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    you're automatically "associated with BUsh".  There's that type of loose, but necessary, association, then there's the close association in the administration -- Condi Rice for instance -- which would be fatal to the McCain ticket.

    KBH wouldn't be disqualified on the association score.

    As for Christie Whitman, some of you folks need to get some fresh air.  Repubs aren't going to be too happy with a VP pick from the "librul" wing of their party.  Good grief.  

    Especially so since McC himself has been working so hard to build trust with the hard conservative base.

    [ Parent ]

    It seems (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:30:44 AM EST
    Obama has no problem thinking about picking a pro life man for the ticket. Obama has huge problems with the base too you have to realize. I guess the difference is that McCain seems to be interested in placating his while Obama thinks trashing or ignoring his is the way to go?

    [ Parent ]
    Wow (none / 0) (#158)
    by talex on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:26:22 AM EST
    next to Condie KBH is the most known Bushie there is, what are you talking about? During the war there was no woman more visible on the airwaves than KBH. And not just on the war - but on a number of issues.

    [ Parent ]
    KBH on the republican ticket (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by camellia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:13:03 AM EST
    would really turn me off and make sure I wouldn't cast my vote for McCain.  

    After all the misogyny and sexism thrown at Hillary, to now see both parties running around trying to find a suitable female candidate is really ridiculous.  It's a consolation prize -- "see, ladies, we really aren't sexist at all.  It's just Hillary Clinton that we don't like.  Other women are just fine, as long as they know their place."  

    [ Parent ]

    That dog won't hunt (5.00 / 6) (#175)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:37:11 AM EST
    It's only Obama who has dug himself this particular hole.  No one expected McCain would put Hillary on his ticket, so picking a woman, as long as she wasn't completely unqualified (and if Obama's the standard the experience bar is very low) isn't a flap in Hillary's face.  

    It is a grave misunderstanding of what wins campaigns if anyone thinks they are about fairness.

    I know the Republicans are just throwing out the bait to see if they can take advantage of Obama's poorly executed strategy to alienate the base.  Obama's new-found respect for Clinton's supporters is the same thing.

    Disclaimer: I'm not voting for McCain, no need to respond with all his sins and/or how disloyal I am.

    But if you are a person who feels you have to vote for one or the other, and they're both being hypocritical, why not go for the one who was quicker to realize he needs you?  The one who isn't still trying to run down your value to the party?

    [ Parent ]

    Depends on how determined you are (none / 0) (#174)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:36:50 AM EST
    in your frustration or anger to view such a pick so negatively.  I would have thought there would be room after HRC's historic candidacy to open up the field a little more wrt which types of people can be considered for a ticket in either party.

    Apparently not.  Apparently Hillary only opened the door for Hillary.  

    I don't think though that she said that in her fine speech yesterday.

    But I too don't want to see her being offered some consolation prize with the VP post, one which she's already held in effect for 8 yrs with Bill.

    [ Parent ]

    Just to get this straight (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Faust on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:00:15 AM EST
    Are you suggesting she shouldn't be given the VP slot because she was already the de facto VP to Bill Clinton? Is that what you are saying?

    [ Parent ]
    If Obama does not pick HRC as his (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:51:24 AM EST
    VP McCain will pick a woman. Bet on it.

    [ Parent ]
    Remember McCain (5.00 / 8) (#171)
    by talex on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
    tried to get on Kerry's ticket as VP?

    So don't be surprised of the cagey old guy wouldn't try to woo Clinton as his VP!

    Now of course she would reject the offer and McCain knows that...

    But as a political move it would be brilliant for him to offer Clinton the VP spot. Just think of the political capital it would give him with huge blocks of voters.

    Doing so would also make Obama look like an amateurish fool.

    [ Parent ]

    But but but...he is! (5.00 / 6) (#192)
    by Shainzona on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:47:57 AM EST
    "Doing so would also make Obama look like an amateurish fool."

    [ Parent ]
    Sarah Palin (Gov. of Alaska) (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Shainzona on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:47:05 AM EST
    was touted on TV this AM for McCain's VP.

    I went to her web site - she would be interesting...she's young, pro-choice, environmentally concerned, has 5 children, one about a month old with Down Syndrome...very interesting.

    [ Parent ]

    She's not pro-choice (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:21:01 AM EST
    and while she's not rabidly anti-gay like some (she vetoed legislation that would have forbidden the state from granting benefits to gay state employees and their partners), she's against gay marriage.  Not that either of those is a minus for a Republican, of course.

    She would be an interesting choice, though, if for no other reason than as a signal of McCain's campaign strategy.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, please...let it be Obama/Sebelius (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Shainzona on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:17:52 AM EST
    Can you imagine the backlash!!!  After falling asleep during her acceptance speech, ALL Dems will wake-up and realize what a mistake they have made.

    [ Parent ]
    And... (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by santarita on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    Sebellius has more relevant experience than Obama and might outshine him.  This wouldn't be acceptable especially for the fragile male ego.

    [ Parent ]
    Sebelius couldn't out shine (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:27:58 AM EST
    a stuffed shirt.  She has no foreign policy experience.  No national policy experience.  It's a non-starter.

    [ Parent ]
    When her name first came up, (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:34:50 AM EST
    I did some research on her.  A magazine article praising her began the list of her accomplishments with she "held a garage sale" to get rid of excess cars in the state fleet.

    [ Parent ]
    You don't want your VP to be (3.00 / 1) (#102)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:55:25 AM EST
    outshining the P candidate.  FP?  A secondary matter this election yr, which will turn on the economy, as should be obvious.

    She's got enough exec experience, being a vy popular two-termer, to easily pass the threshhold question about qualifications, and has a family background on both sides in politics.

    There are many more picks O could make which are far worse.

    And I don't think he wants to have to deal with not just one but two Clintons as part of his campaign and admin.  That's just the hard reality, as I view the situation.  

    [ Parent ]

    He doesn't (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:03:27 AM EST
    have a clue as how to win then. FP may not be the main thing in Nov. but all McCain has to do is get 5% and he wins.

    [ Parent ]
    Well that's just sad (5.00 / 14) (#165)
    by Democratic Cat on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    He won't want to handle two Clintons but I'm supposed to trust him to handle the Republican establishment, Iraq, Iran, the economy, etc.?

    And maybe you weren't paying attention during the primary: a family background in politics was not viewed as an asset by many Obama supporters.

    I'm hoping Obama supporters have some better arguments than yours, or the Dems will lose in November.

    [ Parent ]

    You're talking to a HRC backer, (5.00 / 0) (#213)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:00:27 AM EST
    DemCat, albeit in the minority among her supporters who doesn't want to see her taking marching orders from the less qualified younger guy for the next 8 yrs.  I'm very firm about this, as most here know.  I see VP for her as a bit of a humiliating undertaking and probably a step down careerwise.

    And I think it's quite sensible and necessary for our nominee to pick someone he's comfortable with, both on the campaign trail but more importantly in office.  

    I'm not convinced she'd be overall a net plus for him in getting elected, but I'm far more certain that there would be some uncomfortable and unworkable JFK-LBJ moments once in office.

    [ Parent ]

    Ooooo. (none / 0) (#200)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:52:24 AM EST
    Good retort.

    [ Parent ]
    Who has (5.00 / 14) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:30:56 AM EST
    less experience than Obama? I think it would be hard to find any candidate less qualified than Obama unless they started looking at state legislators and governors who haven't completed one term in office.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe Caroline Kennedy will (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:44:30 AM EST
    do a Dick Cheney.

    [ Parent ]
    that would be an interesting choice (none / 0) (#108)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:00:10 AM EST
    though she doesn't have first hand political experience, she does have lots of experience, and she is a kennedy. Hmm, interesting.

    [ Parent ]
    She would certainly (5.00 / 9) (#142)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:16:55 AM EST
    fit the description of having less experience than Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Telling Choice (5.00 / 5) (#161)
    by NYCDem11 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:28:08 AM EST
    When I heard that Obama put Caroline Kennedy on his 3-person VP search team, it struck me that Hillary has no chance of landing that spot. I hope I'm wrong. Either way, despite the respect I have for Caroline for her dedication to charitable works, I'm bewildered by her participation in this process. Am I missing something? What on earth puts her in a good position to make the most strategic choice for VP? Her last name? The toddler years she spent in the White House? This whole thing is becoming a made-for-TV movie.


    [ Parent ]
    Caroline is Ted's proxy (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by ineedalife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:42:44 AM EST
    She is just there to make sure Ted's wishes aren't ignored. I am of the mind that Obama gave Ted the right to pick the VP, to get that wing of the party in line, along time ago.

    [ Parent ]
    Nah, He Can't Chose Sibelius (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:01:58 AM EST
    They're both from Kansas.  /snark

    [ Parent ]
    SOTU (none / 0) (#25)
    by waldenpond on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:14:26 AM EST
    Is she the one who gave the after-SOTU adddress?  I hope not.  She was more than a little robotic.  I usually find the after-address interesting, not that time.

    I agree he can not pick another woman.  It makes no sense that he would pick another when she is the most qualified woman in politics today.  

    He needs experience on his ticket and she has it.  If he doesn't think having a woman at one of the highest offices in the country is change, I doubt his message strongly.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes she was (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:18:43 AM EST
    in all her soporific glory.

    [ Parent ]
    (sigh) No VP candidate is going (none / 0) (#89)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:47:22 AM EST
    to be without a downside.  But you're making far too much about the NS business.

    This one is shaping up, clearly, to be an election that turns on the sorry state of the economy, and one where wars and rumors of war are going to get far less traction than in the past.  Not unlike 1992.

    Many people have their basic economic survival at stake right now, thanks in no small part to the incompetent and uncaring Bush admin.  

    They aren't likely to be swayed by overriding NS matters this time.

    [ Parent ]

    If that is true we are a very shallow nation (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:59:47 AM EST
    When we have 200,000 troops in the field, that should be out number one priority. The two issues are connected of course, and that would be Obama's strongest argument unless he continues framing it in terms of spending all the money we would save by withdrawing from Iraq.

    [ Parent ]
    This is (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:10:37 AM EST
    classic trap Dems fall in to: they ignore national security. 1992 was a time of peace. We didn't have a war going on. Ignore that at your peril. Voters apparently have serious doubts about Obama's ability to handle anything related to Iraq, National security and being c in c. It doesn't have to be a huge percentage. Only enough to put McCain in the White house.

    [ Parent ]
    In 92 we'd just completed two wars (none / 0) (#159)
    by brodie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:27:10 AM EST
    -- Gulf and Cold.  People were fed up as they sensed Poppy was neglecting serious domestic matters.

    This cycle is somewhat similar.  We've had two long wars -- Iraq and Afghanistan -- and people are fed up.  O's position in 2002 opposing the Iraq vote should hold him in good stead as showing good judgment in FP.  McC still has his "100 yrs' in Iraq to defend plus the growing perception that he's (cough, cough) somewhat uninformed about the region.

    And saber rattling over Iran isn't going to pull the Repubs' chestnuts out of the fire this time.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah (5.00 / 14) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:37:21 AM EST
    those "wars" were over not continuing as they are today. Actually O's opposition to the war has become a joke to many. Have you seen the GOP going after him on this already? He's voted to fund the war and then not fund the war. He was against it before he went to the senate and then supported it once in the senate even to the point of saying that "voting against funding was the same as voting against the troops" or somesuch.

    Obama has now said that we need to stay in Iraq indefinitely. Obama's judgement argument is completely shot. Is it good judgement to sit in the pews of TUCC for 20 years? To indoctrinate your children into that kind of theology?

    Really, get your head out of the sand. Obama is NOT a shoe in to win in Nov. With the problems with the democratic base rupturing, his inexperience and the fact that he isn't really running on issues, it is going to be an uphill battle for him to win in Nov.  He wants to run around and give speeches for months and then wait for the votes to come in Nov. He's not working to earn votes, he seems to expect them as do you.

    [ Parent ]

    Unity (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:04:12 AM EST
    isn't going to happen IMO. He will not pick Clinton. Michelle has said no. He hasn't a clue as how to unify the party. He thinks a speech will solve all problems. They don't---case in point Rev. Wright and the speech there actually made the problem WORSE.

    I don't think the party is really interested in winning in Nov. It reminds me of what I read about in the 1972 election--party members thought that McGovern was a good candidate because he could raise money. History can tell us how that one turned out.

    I perceive Obama's choice to put the (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:07:34 AM EST
    golf clubs in the car yesterday while Clinton's supporters waited for her speech to begin means he will not select Clinton as his running mate.  Clueless, or disdainful, or something.

    [ Parent ]
    Or Maybe He Knew It Was HER Day... (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Rictor Rockets on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:09:48 AM EST
    And it would have been disrespectful not to give her the entire spotlight?

    Some people won't be satisfied no matter what, I think...

    [ Parent ]

    "Some people." Good call. (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:16:04 AM EST
    The longer he waits to announce his VP selection, though, the he'll acquire the support of Clinton voters who are willing to listen.

    [ Parent ]
    Both candidates will not pick (none / 0) (#123)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:08:12 AM EST
    vp choices until the dem convention. For Sen. Obama, his convention will come first.

    [ Parent ]
    Re: "Maybe he knew it was HER day" (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:19:02 AM EST
    What is your opinion of Obama campaign's statement re Clinton's speech yesterday?

    [ Parent ]
    I think he wrote it before he heard it. (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:46:47 AM EST
    And although I don't care if he went out and played golf, wasn't he going home to spend some time with the kids? I think he should have sat on the sofa and watched Hillary's speech with them.  Behind closed doors. Out of sight.

    [ Parent ]
    Her day (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by waldenpond on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:20:13 AM EST
    I was actually fine with it.  I think he could have paused in his day... BTD said he was able to watch it on a computer?  and watched it live.  I think it would have been nice to responded to her actual speech, but he did stay out of the media for the day and I liked his statement honoring her and her work for this country.

    It really did allow the attention to be on her.  I was able to focus on her speech, the supporters and the reaction afterwards on c-span and (unusual for c-span) the comments were mostly positive.  The Obama supporters were for the joint ticket and quite enthusiastic about it. :)

    [ Parent ]

    How much attention could really be (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:11:12 AM EST
    on her...he went and played golf, which showed how much he (didn't?) care about what she did. I agree that it might have "looked" better had he stayed home to be with his children. He told Brian Williams that he had only been home 10 days in the past year or so. Instead of the spotlight being on her, it was on him because he was playing, imo!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Speech (5.00 / 8) (#27)
    by gaf on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:15:32 AM EST
    He thinks a speech will solve all problems.

    All those people who can be convinced by just a speech are already on his side. It will take far more.

    [ Parent ]

    I was at the Texas convention this weekend and (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by Angel on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:47:26 AM EST
    ran into an old friend who I hadn't seen in a year or so.  He was an Obama delegate and I was surprised at that because he had always been a Clinton supporter.  In fact, he named his young son Clinton.  I asked him why he switched and he said "I heard Obama speak."  As if that explained it.  Seriously, that's what we're dealing with.  

    [ Parent ]
    The Houston Chronicle reported (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:12:59 AM EST
    today that nothing will be address about the Tx two step until 2010, which tells me they are going to do nothing!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Good Point (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by vcmvo2 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:05:39 AM EST
    I hope somebody in his campaign is paying attention. I have my doubts though.

    And all the "Why Hillary Lost" commentary is just may I say ..."ugh!" As BTD notes "she lost...barely."

    Why they ask "why Hillary lost" (none / 0) (#97)
    by Mickeleh on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:53:32 AM EST
    It's true that the outcome was very close and that Sen. Clinton barely lost.

    But it should never have been a squeaker. She should have won going away.

    And since the final result was so close, it's natural to ask whether some different strategy or tactic would have flipped the outcome.

    Flip the question, if you will: How did Obama manage to win?

    [ Parent ]

    It is very clear that the Obama (5.00 / 5) (#130)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:10:36 AM EST
    managers knew how to game the delegate system and create a momentum based on the red state caucus system. Pulling in independents and Republicans was part of the Democratic la-la land methodology. Obama also outspent Hillary 2 sometimes 4 times as much as Hillary did.  Mark Penn served Hillary very poorly.  If she and Maggie Williams had taken charge in the beginning (along with ACE Smith) she would have won.  The Democrats have an idea that their caucus methodology will bring in a flood of new voters and cash.  Maybe!  We will see how this plays out.  After all Hillary brought in millions of Reagan Democrats and Latinos but they don't seem to have the money like the latte volvo liberals do.

    [ Parent ]
    Answer (5.00 / 10) (#173)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:34:08 AM EST
    How did Obama manage to win?

    I believe P. T. Barnum had the answer to this one.

    [ Parent ]
    And, by any reasonable count, (none / 0) (#111)
    by Landulph on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:01:40 AM EST
    won the popular vote, by approx. 74,000 votes. Here's my calculations (courtesy of RCP):

    Less MI & IA, NV, ME estimates: Obama +41,000

    With IA, NV, ME estimates: Obama +101,844

    With MI: Clinton +176,465

    With WA, NE, ID primaries (Clinton +71,000):
                      Clinton +247,465

    With MI Uncommitted by Exit poll (Obama +173,000):
                      Clinton +~74,500

    With ALL MI Uncommitted to Obama (Obama +238,168):
                       Clinton +~9,000

    My thesis is very simple: if you allocated a single MI Uncommitted vote to Obama, than you must in turn count all 3 nonbinding primaries in place of the caucus results in those states, with a corresponding vote gain for Clinton. If you accept the exit poll as an adequate measure of the popular will and voters' intentions, than you must to the same for the nonbinding primaries, all of which saw a far higher turnout than the corresponding causcuses.

    Any thoughts?


    [ Parent ]

    Exactly, BTD. You sweet lovable man. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:06:05 AM EST
    God, have you lived up to your username.

    Obama will have to top ABBA, that's for sure (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:07:39 AM EST


    Boney M? (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:39:23 AM EST
    I never got ABBA, even with a heavy kitsch warning, but I LOVE (disco warning) Boney M. (So what, I love disco.)

    I don't deride ABBA's hardcore fans. I generally don't eye-roll on what people put into their various holes -- eat! listen! enjoy! dance! live! bless you!

    I'm tapped to go see Mama Mia, though.

    [ Parent ]

    Two things (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:14:55 AM EST
    1.  Picking Clinton as VP all by itself won't unite the party.

    2.  He could unite the party without picking Clinton as VP.


    Yes, it will. (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:16:38 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I don't think (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:18:07 AM EST
    It will.

    I'm not against it anymore, I'm just saying that if there's problems with Obama, it doesn't solve them.


    [ Parent ]

    Oh, and no he can't. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:16:54 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Speaking for myself (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:20:01 AM EST
    He could throw CDS under the bus, and then I'd be fine with him no matter who he chooses as VP.

    Choosing Clinton as VP doesn't, in and of itself, throw CDS under the bus.

    It could inflame CDS if not done right, see cosbo's comment above.


    [ Parent ]

    It's all but impossible (5.00 / 8) (#99)
    by kredwyn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:54:13 AM EST
    to throw CDS under the bus without picking Clinton as VP.

    CDS has been something that the campaign has used, or been the recipient of, since the early days of the campaign. Every right wing talking point that is implicit in CDS has been used by supporters, surrogates...whatever...with relish.

    [ Parent ]

    I know (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:57:03 AM EST
    It's almost as bad as sitting in that church for 20 years and pretending not to be aware of the sermons.

    But that's the threshold.

    [ Parent ]

    Then we're DOA in November (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by kredwyn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:02:28 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    exactly--and more succinctly said than my post (none / 0) (#93)
    by kempis on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:49:12 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    How? He's not even started to (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:18:14 AM EST
    try. His campaign is not sending out those sorts of messages.

    [ Parent ]
    First thing I heard (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:16:45 AM EST
    at work the other morning overhearing two Obama supporters.

    Obama's problems aren't his VP choice.  

    Speaking of dis-unity! (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Shainzona on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:19:23 AM EST
    ...did anyone see Maureen Dowd's "article" this AM.

    Keep it up MODO...and you'll just keep digging BO a deeper hole.

    I am quite sure (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:20:12 AM EST
    that she's isn't speaking for Obama.

    MoDo speaks only for her deranged self.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, CDS is not the only derangement (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:51:56 AM EST
    syndrome MoDo suffers from, either.

    [ Parent ]
    I think the Clinton hate will continue like that (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:25:50 AM EST
    because some people just can't let go. Or they realize despite the media saying otherwise, the Clinton's still have lots of power.

    [ Parent ]
    I saw MD's column... (5.00 / 8) (#181)
    by NYCDem11 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:41:16 AM EST
    I had high hopes after Hillary's speech that the Times would have a nice piece on the barriers broken and the barriers still faced. But instead of a tribute to summarize the Clinton campaign, Maureen just kept on slapping her in the face. Maureen: Since I'm a woman, we'll agree that it's not sexist for me to stop reading your columns.

    [ Parent ]
    I wish they would fire Dowd and replace her (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by nulee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    with Alessandra Stanley who covers TV and pop culture for the Times.  I think she actually has something to say and wrote some excellent columns on the media's impact on the election.  Dowd is totally bitter and angry, clinging to her op-ed column.  I can't believe the Times has not been sued for libel because of Dowd.

    [ Parent ]
    disagree, the media doesn't want him too (5.00 / 7) (#66)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:32:33 AM EST
    and as we've seen with a tied race, the media decides. If the media doesn't want Hillary as the VP, Obama has no choice, he can't chooser her. The analysis for the VP needs to be strictly about what the media wants and what they would like.

    After all, the dems have picked their candidate not based on who could win in November, not based on who has experience or who can be a great president and fix the mess we're in, but instead have based it on who they think the media likes the best right now. Same should hold true for the VP slot.

    I of course disagree with this strategy of going for the media darling over the media proof candidate for two reasons. One, what if the media shifts over perhaps based on more Obama bashing or new information to back McCain instead. And of course two, how about back the better candidate who is the more electable. Well, that would be my crazy approach, but what do I know.

    Ironically, it is the media who says that.... (5.00 / 9) (#177)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:37:35 AM EST
    ...picking Clinton will make him look weak. What they are really doing is threatening him. In reality, picking Clinton would make him look strong to a lot of people, including myself.

    [ Parent ]
    Looking at comments on Hillary's speech (5.00 / 25) (#71)
    by esmense on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:37:45 AM EST
    on Obama supporting blogs, it looks like about 20-30, may 40% of Obama's supporters are paranoid Clinton haters.

    This troubles me. The problem I, and many people like me, have in supporting Obama has nothing to do with support for Clinton. It is this paranoid, conspiracy-minded, hateful element in the Obama "movement."

    Obama is, more than any candidate in my voting lifetime (other than, perhaps, George Wallace or Perot), selling himself as the leader of a "movement" bringing all kinds of "new" people into the the political process and the Democratic party while promising "change" that "reforms" or weakens some parts of the party's traditional coalition.

    But there appears to be evidence, from their own mouths, that many people attacted to this message and movement are voting on the basis of hatred, paranoia, resentment and exclusion (as the Wallace people were), and, often VERY forthrightly and unapologetically, on gender and class prejudice, rather than on a new, positive, more expansive and eqalitarian view of politics and the party.

    I'm deeply uncomfortable associating myself with such a movement. It goes against every principle I've stood for over a lifetime.

    I know other Obama supporters will point out that not all Obama supporters can be judged by the haters. But when will they, and Obama, stand up to and condemn the haters?

    Will Obama's campaign continue to ignore this dangerous and ugly element in their movement, or even encourage it, because they believe they can continue to exploit these people, and their prejudices and resentments, for their candidate's benefit?

    This is the part of the Obama movement that will not tolerate putting Clinton on the ticket. Is Obama really willing to lose their support? And can he win without it?

    The result of Obama's campaign (5.00 / 9) (#101)
    by samanthasmom on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:55:07 AM EST
    is that he can't hold on to one group of supporters without alienating another.  In this day of YouTube and the blogs, he  can't pander without its being caught right away so he's being called out as a flip-flopper.

    [ Parent ]
    I too am concerned (5.00 / 5) (#117)
    by laurie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:04:54 AM EST
    look at what has been done to the intertubz.

    Anyway I have a feeling that Obama would prefer to stretch his idea of unity over to the Republicans and avoid Hillary women altogether. Perhaps a Republican youthful VP.

    [ Parent ]

    Republican? In which case, (5.00 / 5) (#128)
    by A little night musing on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:09:39 AM EST
    he definitely will not get my vote.

    Man. And only a couple of months ago I was saying that I would happily vote for whichever one got the nomination.

    I wish I thought he would never even consider doing this, but it's all of a piece with what I've been hearing from him and his campaign.

    Obama: you broke it.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you!! (5.00 / 12) (#141)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:16:47 AM EST
    I am not just a crazy battle axe.  I don't think he can control the movement.  The movement sustains him.   Axelrod created the movement with some powerful propaganda techniques.  "It" has to be fed and brought out on an as needed basis.  The frightening thing is that the "movement" was their creation, now they are starting to believe that it was organic.  

    I am at the crossroads of a distasteful McCain, or a weak candidate with a powerful propaganda machine with "a movement".  It's not good I tell you.  

    [ Parent ]

    Nagourney article in NYT says (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:26:05 AM EST
    Obama's campaign team is planning a tour on the economy, then a possible foreign trip and a "biography" tour.  

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, the greatest story ever told. (5.00 / 14) (#169)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If he picks Hillary, and she (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:30:38 AM EST
    accepts, and he tells his minnions how wonderful this all is, they will follow and obey and praise.

    [ Parent ]
    It's worth bearing (5.00 / 7) (#194)
    by frankly0 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:50:52 AM EST
    in mind that it is not as though Obama's core constituencies are only, while running at the Presidential level, consumed with hatred and divisiveness.

    The plain fact is that this is how his core constituencies were composed and disposed for the greatest portion of Obama's political life -- namely, while he was a State Senator of the Hyde Park District in Chicago.

    This really is the inescapable implication of his 20 year involvement in the The United Church of Christ. I don't think any of us have seen more obvious hatred and demonizing of the Other in a public venue than was in unabashed display in that "church".

    For all his talk of unity, his history is one of courting and empowering some of the most divisive, paranoid elements to be found in American society. It's been his real power base throughout his political career.

    Why imagine that this will change at this stage? It has been his MO throughout his political career. There is a symbiotic relationship there; he gives something vital to these distorted individuals, and they give something vital back.

    [ Parent ]

    Just to add a bit, (5.00 / 8) (#211)
    by frankly0 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:58:50 AM EST
    people keep wanting to somehow distinguish and disentangle Obama from his crazy supporters, as if they are some foreign element. But I don't see how one really succeeds in doing that, given Obama's message of a "movement", and given his history of representing and empowering these kinds of elements.

    There is no teasing out of one from the other. There may be more to Obama than his supporters, but they are core to who he is.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe higher (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by blogtopus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:12:45 AM EST
    Some of my more liberal friends believe that the fix was in for Hillary to win because the Clintons are a part of a global conspiracy to keep power in the hands of a choice few. Clintons, Bushes, and the Vatican, I suppose.

    WTF? I imagine they think that Hillary will angle for VP and have Obama secretly taken out, only to be revealed after two years have passed, so Hillary can then run for two full terms afterwards, thereby maximizing her time of 10 years as President (unless, of course, she uses her scary mind control to repeal the 22nd amendment).

    Seriously; I'm sure this is on the minds of a lot of people. /snark

    [ Parent ]

    You said it better than I did.. (none / 0) (#147)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:18:20 AM EST
    When I asked the same question a couple of days ago, the answer seemed to be that people here have not spent much time thinking about it. In short, it may be an anti-Heisenberg (i.e. you have to do it to be able to observe it :-).
       

    [ Parent ]
    Tell It To Bob Reich (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Blue Jean on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:38:45 AM EST
    right here. He seems to have drunk the CDS juice, despite the fact that the Clintons gave him his first chance at the top.  With friends like these, the Dems are looking at a landslide defeat in November.

    Reich is not a friend (5.00 / 8) (#76)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:39:46 AM EST
    and has never been.

    [ Parent ]
    Or as my Obama-supporting friend (1.00 / 2) (#77)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:42:58 AM EST
    sd., did you ever stop to consider all those ex-Clinton administration people may be correct?

    [ Parent ]
    Uh, no. I know Reich personally. (5.00 / 11) (#88)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:47:07 AM EST
    He's a sexist, angry little man.  The best of the Clinton admin supported Hill.  

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Can't Pick Hillary (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by santarita on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:38:48 AM EST