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Saturday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:27:34 PM EST
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I'm at Owl Farm, we're getting ready for our yearly NORML drug law defense party. Last Night in Little Rock is here, TChris wasn't able to make it this year. LNILR spoke right after me about roadblocks and search and seizure. My talk was on the new crack cocaine sentencing guideline reductions.

The musicians are just arriving and the caterers are setting up.

Here's an open thread where you can pick the topics.

I won't be around to ban the trolls, so please ignore them or point them out as a site violators. I'll get to cleaning threads tomorrow and we do have a site moderator around.

< Obama's Response To Clinton Endorsement | O'Connor Backs Educational Videogames About Judicial System >

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    Saturday Afternoon Open Thread | 200 comments (200 topical)
    Thanks Jeralyn (5.00 / 10) (#30)
    by SeaMBA on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:03:19 PM EST
    I want to say thank you for a great site. I plan to stick around, because the very issues that are important to you are important to me.

    Which is why I find it paradoxical to think that I will not be voting for Obama this fall while you will be supporting him.  

    Perhaps it is because I am a pessimist.  I see any short term gains under an Obama presidency being just that, short term.  I really don't think that he will be that effective and we will have another 20 years of Republican dominance after his 4 years.  That is not something this country can afford.

    The major danger to America of a McCain presidency is that he is not as bad as hardcore Democrats think or portray him to be.  That would breathe new life into the Republican party.  But I think that he won't be successful in cleaning up Bush's mess, and it will be the penultimate nail in the Republican coffin.

    For America to really change we need to hit rock bottom, and I don't think we have yet.  Not that I want to see Americans suffer, but I do think that as a country we emerged from the Depression and Roosevelt's years as President a far stronger and better nation.  Obama is no Roosevelt.  

    stick around (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by ChuckieTomato on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:04:56 PM EST
    You're not the only one who's not voting for him

    [ Parent ]
    I have been reading at DKos... (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by citizen53 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST
    about whether Clinton supporters should be welcome back.

    I find it funny that so many do not realize that if you want someone's support, you don't make them crawl, yet that is what many expect.

    I find it sad that so many use the excuse that others are bad, so we can be bad.

    Unity and class come from from within, no matter what anyone else does.

    These people who ask for contrition have a lot to learn about earning one's support.

    That's hysterical. (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:28:32 PM EST
    Do they not realize that for Clinton supporters (and for other actually honest, rational people), sites like Kos have zero credibility, and that no one would want to be associated with them?

    [ Parent ]
    Oh ha ha............ (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:56:42 PM EST
    ...let me know what they decide.

    [ Parent ]
    Not going to go there (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by gram cracker on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    KOS, TPM, Huffypost, etc. get ad revenue every time you go to their sites.  Therefore I will continue to boycott them.  

     

    [ Parent ]

    Same here.. (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by BostonIndependent on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:51:28 PM EST
    The thing that turned me off to dKos (beside the ranting and raving against Hillary and Bill which was way over the top sometime) was their pseudo-intellectualism. People posting long bulleted lists that makes the entitled/IM generation go "wow, that's deep", What passes for thought and analysis in dKos is really not much thought or much analysis IMO.

    That coupled with the bullying - done by cowards hiding behind the internet cloud, made the noise to signal ratio too high for my tastes.

    (mydd started off ok, but was soon overrun by Obama supporters whose behavior was very similar so I stopped going there. Just can't stand those content-less subject-only posters that are pompous and uninformed.)

    Thanks to Jeralyn and TL for keeping this site a lot saner. Trolls did show up and still do, but at least the conversation is civil!

    [ Parent ]

    Ha, reminds me of my brothers (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:37:35 PM EST
    and neighborhood boys constantly forming "clubs" in our yard, right below my bedroom window, so I could hear all their discussions of "roolz" even then that would keep out icky grrls.

    Do the DKosers realize their discussion is public now and preserved for posterity, too?

    [ Parent ]

    They live in a vacuum ... (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:16:38 PM EST
    they still think Obama will easily win HRC supporters.

    What election were they watching?

    [ Parent ]

    Hysterically funny (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by chrisvee on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:27:13 PM EST
    Regardless of how I decide to vote, DK, Eschaton, Americablog, TPM, and HP are dead to me. I'll get my news elsewhere.

    [ Parent ]
    The path forward (5.00 / 3) (#194)
    by daria g on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 09:10:16 PM EST
    Does not run through Daily Kos.

    [ Parent ]
    I choose to leave (3.50 / 2) (#67)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:50:28 PM EST
    I am still 33xxx. I just could not stomach the horrid treatment of Hillary and her supporters. I can go back anytime but I don't think I will. There was no GBCW or burning of bridges. I just found the it was nicer dealing with less people here rather than 150k all wanting to be heard. And no rating diaries here also. You get to read them all and good ones don't go by the wayside. Sounds as if the Big Orange does not know how to act. I am sure it would have been the same without winning as it is winning.  Now, I think Hillary should be on the ticket so I can support her request for unity. And just think of the DKos explosion. It would be fun just to see that.

    87 in NE Penna and a thunderstorm just around the corner. Mostly background noise right now.

    [ Parent ]

    I just find it ironic... (5.00 / 6) (#83)
    by citizen53 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:05:36 PM EST
    that people actually preach unity while being divisive.

    That people do not woo support, but expect the supporters to woo them.

    That people who yesterday treated others like dirt, expect that it must all be forgotten.

    Disagree with them once, and the old times will return in a flash.

    Because they believe in unity only on their terms.  In the end, that is not very unifying conduct.  It's easy to see through insincerity.

    [ Parent ]

    On the other board I post on (not dkos) (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by Grace on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:35:40 PM EST
    at least a couple of the posters have suddenly woken up and thought "OMG!  We're going to have a problem with women!  What do we have to do to get them back?"  And they are actually fretting about it.  It's kind of funny now because I can tell a couple are genuinely worried about it.  An older Republican poster tried to explain that women have long memories and it might not be that easy to get them back.  They are going to have to work on it.  :)

    We'll see what happens.  

    I actually liked the other board because everyone discussed issues like gun control, immigration, etc.; and even though there were a wide variety of opinions and political parties represented, it was actually a fairly peaceful discussion.  At least it was until the Obama Youth invaded...    

    [ Parent ]

    women have long memories (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by echinopsia on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 09:34:14 PM EST
    Women and elephants NEVER forget.

    Ballade of Unfortunate Mammals by Dorothy Parker

    Love is sharper than stones or sticks;
    Lone as the sea, and deeper blue;
    Loud in the night as a clock that ticks;
    Longer-lived than the Wandering Jew.
    Show me a love was done and through,
    Tell me a kiss escaped its debt!
    Son, to your death you'll pay your due-
    Women and elephants never forget.

    Ever a man, alas, would mix,
    Ever a man, heigh-ho, must woo;
    So he's left in the world-old fix,
    Thus is furthered the sale of rue.
    Son, your chances are thin and few-
    Won't you ponder, before you're set?
    Shoot if you must, but hold in view
    Women and elephants never forget.

    Down from Caesar past Joynson-Hicks
    Echoes the warning, ever new:
    Though they're trained to amusing tricks,
    Gentler, they, than the pigeon's coo,
    Careful, son, of the curs'ed two-
    Either one is a dangerous pet;
    Natural history proves it true-
    Women and elephants never forget.

    L'ENVOI

    Prince, a precept I'd leave for you,
    Coined in Eden, existing yet:
    Skirt the parlor, and shun the zoo-
    Women and elephants never forget.



    [ Parent ]
    Good news! (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by dk on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:26:52 PM EST
    John Kerry will have a progressive primary challenger, Ed O'Reilly (www.edoreilly.com).

    Kerry was part of the corruption that led to Obama's victory.  Any other MA democrats around here who want to see what we can do to send a message?

    Yes, me (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:49:37 PM EST
    I shall go look up what I can about this person.

    Not sure we can unseat him but anything I can do to make his life a bit harder, as he has made mine, is worth it.

    [ Parent ]

    I heard that Kerry is upset (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:05:41 PM EST
    because he is going to have to do a little campaigning.  I live in MA and will help make sure he has to.

    [ Parent ]
    Please do. (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:12:21 PM EST
    We need a "change" in Washington.  I'll be helping Ed this summer.

    [ Parent ]
    He is pro-gay marriage (none / 0) (#153)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:05:06 PM EST
    No weasely 'civic unions are good enough'.  Impressive.

    Although his website needs a bit of help, there's no way to donate to his campaign.  But, it's still early.

    Now, when do I get to vote against Deval Patrick?

    [ Parent ]

    November 2010 (none / 0) (#156)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:11:18 PM EST
    And I'll meet you in the voting booth

    [ Parent ]
    You're on! n/t (none / 0) (#175)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:43:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Seems to be a lot of MA people on TL (none / 0) (#91)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:14:34 PM EST
    or is it just that I notice folks from the same state more?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm an honorary MA person (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by janarchy on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:16:27 PM EST
    We have a house in the Berkshires and I have a ton of friends in the Boston area. I wish I could help give John Kerry a crappy summer -- he deserves it.

    Besides, don't we want NEW politics and not the same old Washington Insiders who are to blame for all the problems there? ::winks::

    [ Parent ]

    I read (none / 0) (#189)
    by tek on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 08:12:08 PM EST
    that he's calling in all the Dem leaders in MA to keep this guy off the ballot.  Remind you of anyone?

    [ Parent ]
    Kerry should practice what he preaches (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by gram cracker on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:15:39 PM EST
    Isn't Kerry part of the older generation that should step aside and make way for someone like...oh say, Deval Patrick.  Hear he may be looking for a new job before too long.

    [ Parent ]
    According to Obama (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:47:52 PM EST
    Kerry lacks the judgment to hold his office.


    [ Parent ]
    Does anyone remember the 1968 move (none / 0) (#157)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:11:43 PM EST
    "Wild in the Streets"? I know it's far fetched, but I do get a glimmer of the same attitude from the Obama hordes. Read the whole plot line to get a good laugh.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't remember that movie, but just read (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:15:11 PM EST
    the synopsis.  The voting age should be moved to 30... :)

    [ Parent ]
    Don't live there, but (none / 0) (#53)
    by nycstray on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:37:23 PM EST
    I'm willing to support fighting Dems :)

    I will say though, Kerry got some props from me a couple weeks ago when I was watching a senate hearing where he had the FDA dude rendered speechless. Kerry knew his stuff and didn't let up. I was impressed and hope to see something come of it. So while my knee jerk reaction is to want to vote some folks out, that hearing was a reminder to me to look at their actual work :)

    [ Parent ]

    Kerry sucks as a Senator. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:59:49 PM EST
    He doesn't respond if you email him.  He hasn't lead on any major issue.  He hasn't done anything since he got to the Senate.  it was on of the reasons i had terrible misgivings about him running for President.

    [ Parent ]
    masslib has it right.. see my post below (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by BostonIndependent on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:03:39 PM EST
    We obviously think alike here! :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Good to know! Thanks (none / 0) (#85)
    by nycstray on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:06:42 PM EST
    I'm going to purge my brain ofpolitics for a bit, but will be jumping back in to evaluate candidates and such. I'd like to see some spines in congress . . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Glad to hear it. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:57:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    2012 (none / 0) (#101)
    by eustiscg on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:36:47 PM EST
    That's when we in CT can vote Lieberman out.  I'll take anyone with a pulse, honestly ...

    [ Parent ]
    I spoke off and on w/ Ed (none / 0) (#180)
    by BostonIndependent on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:02:15 PM EST
    over email, trying to discern where his affections lay (in the matter of Obama vs. Hillary). He didn't give away much, but I'm disgusted enough by Kerry that I will definitely be looking forward to helping his erstwhile challenger.

    I haven't been to his website in a while, but does it have a blog/supporters section? Perhaps we can meet up there. I'm all for letting Kerry know that he cannot take his seat for granted. (Yes, I've written to let him know that).

    BTW, I've written to him on prior occasions (esp. post 9/11 offering to help), and have found his arrogance/responsiveness uninspiring. He has been on commerce&transp. for a while now -- and if anyone should be taking a stance on high oil prices and the state of our airlines, highway infrastructure (remember the Big Dig tunnel collapse) it should be him -- and he has been utterly incompetent dealing with such matters. Just my opinion.

    [ Parent ]

    Issues with the voter registration drives? (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:35:39 PM EST
    Somehow I don't think this is gonna work out so well.

    link

    While Voting Is Power has sent in batches of applications for months, registrars have begun to see a disturbing pattern of misinformation on the forms, including duplicates, cards filled out with different colors of ink, or using the names of pets or dead people. In Jefferson, DiMarco sensed something amiss when a new registration card recently crossed his desk.

    The card, partially filled out, had his name and listed his office's post office box on Citrus Boulevard as the address. It also listed him as a male, a Democrat and African-American.

    "And I can tell you I'm only one of those," said DiMarco, who is white and Republican. There was one bright spot, though. "They flattered me by making me younger -- I did appreciate that."

    This kind of stuff will usher in a whole new wave of Vote ID laws.

    CDS has one last fling (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:41:52 PM EST
    Did anyone catch Michael Kinsley's column about Ayers/Obama in the latest issue of Time? See this: http://tinyurl.com/538wkw. It's actually a pretty decent piece until the head-spinning final paragraph. Get this: Bill Clinton's WEB DESIGNER once said nice things about Ayers and Dohrn at a cocktail party the duo hosted 13 YEARS ago. Ergo (implies Kinsley, through his snarky final sentence: "Over to you, Hillary") Bill and Hillary Clinton are as deeply implicated with Ayers as Obama is.

    This is crazy. Had Obama's web designer, or barber, or mailman once said nice things 13 years ago about Ayers/Dohrn, no one (not even Sean Hannity, I would guess) would have cared one way or the other. Look, you may think Ayers is a morally problematic individual, or you may not. You may think Obama's friendship with him raises questions about his character and judgment, or you may think it's irrelevant. But this is a completely different point from observing that the KIND of relationship Obama has enjoyed with Ayers (whatever one may think of him) is completely different from the one either of the Clintons did (to wit, nil).

    Deep thought: Kinsley is trying to minimize Obama's own ties to Ayers, but does it occur to him that he is actually doing the GOP's dirty work here? If the Clintons can be linked to an individual whom even Kinsley agrees is a repellent and disreputable terrorist ideologue (he praised Charles Manson, fer cryin' out loud!), than the same can be said for the entire progressive movement, using this Kevin Bacon Game logic! For example:

       1. Bill Clinton's webpage designer praised Bill Ayers.

       2. I have visited the webpage of the Clinton Foundation.

       3. I am implicated in the crimes and extremism of the Weather Underground.

    Once hopes the phrase "Well, Clinton[s] wuz worser!" will soon evaporate from the national dialogue--on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.

    Pitfalls for Obama? (none / 0) (#61)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:42:57 PM EST
    Continuing along these lines, Kinsley does point out something I was aware of, but hadn't really picked up on until now. He implies that Ayers was welcomed back by the great and good of Chicago less because of his accomplishments in the field of education (which are, by many accounts, considerable) or because he showed remorse for his actions (he really hasn't) but because of his father's wealth and social position:

    | When it became clear even to them that there
    | would not be violent revolution in America,
    | Ayers and Dohrn shrugged and rejoined society in | Chicago, where he had grown up. It wasn't
    | difficult. While he was in hiding, his father
    | was CEO of Commonwealth Edison, the big utility. | Ayers the elder sat on every Establishment board | in town--Northwestern, the Tribune Co., the
    | Chicago Symphony. Ayers the younger and his wife | were welcomed back into the fold.

    The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Ayers, rather than Rezko, Pfleger, or Wright, is the most problematic of Obama's Chicago associates, because of his opponent: St. John of Hanoi.

    It's not just that Ayers ("Obama's bosom buddy", or so we will be told) was advocating anti-American terrorism when McCain was being tortured ("for his country"--cue fife and drums) in a tiger cage, but that he was a child of wealth and privilage. Contrast this to McCain--an Admiral's son--refusal to be set free ahead of his fellow POWs from less prominent families (yes, we will hear this story ad nauseum by the fall), and his insistence they go home in his place. I would say the juxtaposition of these anecdotes (contrasting Obama's alleged elitism + anti-American radicalism with McCain's patriotism + egalitarianism [ha!]). If used well by GOP, this
    could make it much harder for Obama to build bridges to the working-class voters he needs to win in Nov.

    Remember, this is a very old linkage in conservative politics, between the twin demons of economic privialge and anti-Americanism--remeber their ranting against "Radical chic" and "limousine liberals" in the 1960s. I fear we may see it again.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually the GOP had a point (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:57:36 PM EST
    in that ranting about radical chic and limousine liberals.  There are still those on the left who profess knowing what's best for the working class, when the only member of the working class they meet is their chauffeur or maid.  

    [ Parent ]
    Landulph...quick question...if obama truly (none / 0) (#143)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:43:58 PM EST
    does become the nominee.  Do you think The Bradley Effect might play a role in the election?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (none / 0) (#183)
    by BostonIndependent on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:22:24 PM EST
    But IMO, it won't be because of race (even though the media will try its darnedest to paint it that way) but because of competence. Hence I'd really say it would be a vote against "political correctness" that we can't talk about right now.

    Already, the republican talk radio is talking about Obama as the first AA candidate -- defining AA as Affirmative Action.

    [ Parent ]

    Saw that one coming (none / 0) (#188)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:57:54 PM EST
    100 miles away.  In a bad economy esp. it could get some serious traction, even if Hillary had never run.

    [ Parent ]
    Boston Indy & Valhalla....thanks for your (none / 0) (#190)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 08:17:36 PM EST
    input..obama had better don his full body armor...he is going to be fending of crapballs right and left.  I have no mercy though, as he deserves what he gets.

    [ Parent ]
    Boy, oh, boy! (none / 0) (#203)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:29:02 PM EST
    I knew this one was coming. I remember the 80s when Jesse Helms race-baited his way to TWO Senate victories using exactly this message (his infamous "revolving-door" ad may be on Youtube.) Basically, I think McCain will use three main messages against Obama:

    1. I deserve this, and he does not (this plays into the whole "affirmative action hire" ugliness, and contrasts McCains POW cred with Obama's light resume)

    2. I can keep you safe from slavering Islamofascist barbarians, and he cannot.

    3. I am a real American, and he is not. (McCain's campaign will phrase it more subtly, but FOX, Regnery Press, Rush, and the 527s will do the heavy lifting.)

    Basically, it's gonna be a gutter brawl.

    [ Parent ]
    Unsure. (none / 0) (#204)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:36:40 PM EST
    Bob Somerby had a post at the Daily Howler a while back (after NH) http://tinyurl.com/6m4umg that questioned whether the Bradley effect (of white voter lying to pollsters about supporting a black candidate) ever really existed. To wit:

    By the way, the 1982 "Bradley effect" was more minor than this week's poll swing--and some have attributed it, at least in part, to bungled polling. In 1982, Bradley's lead had been shrinking for a month; he ended up losing by an eyelash. In 1989, Tom Rosenstiel analyzed the matter in the Los Angeles Times:

        ROSENSTIEL (11/9/89): If the idea that voters lie to pollsters is unfounded or at least exaggerated, what happened in Tom Bradley's gubernatorial race in California in 1982?

        Several polls, including The Los Angeles Times Poll, showed Bradley winning handily. With a week to go, Field's California Poll showed Bradley ahead by seven points.

        One problem, which cropped up again Tuesday, was that pollsters overestimated minority turnout.

        Field and others expected it to be about average, 20 percent. But since Bradley chose to run as a mainstream candidate, not mobilizing his base, minority turnout was only 15 percent.

        Another factor was the failure to measure undecideds.

        And when exit polls failed to predict George Deukmejian's victory over Bradley, that was partly because pollsters had not anticipated that relaxed restrictions on absentee voting would cause a rise in that segment of the vote, and that it would go 80 percent Republican.

        Field now asks people in pre-election votes if they are voting absentee, and weights those figures into his exit polls.

    It's my understanding that the 1988 VA gov race in which a similar phenomena was observed (with Wilder winning by an eyelash) followed a similar trajectory: tight race for weeks, than a surprisingly large majority for the black candidate in exit polls, then back to a tight race as the actual results came in. And we've seen how wrong exits can be this primary season! In '06, there were a huge number of black vs. white candidates in statewide races--and not one of them showed a "Bradley effect." So I'm starting to wonder if the whole thing (of people lying to pollsters) may be a myth, as much as the Loch Ness Monster.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, yeh. And BO may need Wisconsin (none / 0) (#147)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:52:59 PM EST
    where Ayers' wife Dohrn also came from wealth and is well-remembered -- and she actually had to serve time and didn't skate on a technicality, as he did.

    [ Parent ]
    Unity Pony Express (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by stillife on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:50:13 PM EST
    I am a co-moderator of a Hillary Clinton LJ community.  I just got an e-mail from an Obama LJ community "welcoming" Clinton supporters to join their comm and asking me to post their invitation.  I did so, with a few choice words.

    They sure didn't waste any time!  As somebody said on another blog (or maybe it was this one), it's like hitting on a widow at her husband's funeral.  

    After "The Speech", I watched (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Joan in VA on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:54:11 PM EST
    the movie "Bobby" with my daughter. One of the things that has really angered me during this campaign has been the comparisons made between Obama and JFK, RFK, and MLK. Hearing Bobby's speeches again really crystallized for me how much NOT like them he is. They were all about things this country could do and he is all about what he could do. His vision is not theirs because it revolves around him. They were leaders whereas he is more of a celebrity.

    I know this is Unity Day (5.00 / 8) (#74)
    by miriam on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:57:14 PM EST
    and all that, but I haven't seen this posted yet so....is anyone else worried?  I mean, really worried?  Maybe I'm dense beyond redemption, but I cannot for the life of me understand why the DNC and its supporters think Obama can win the presidency in November. (I'm not talking about Obama's "civilian" supporters here; I've given up on them ever being rational about his chances.)

    The primary results simply do not encourage optimism.  And this morning's newspaper (in western New York State) reinforces this.  Most Republicans and, significantly, some Democratic politicians say that New York is in play for Republicans for the first time since 1984 (Reagan). Polls show NYS Independents overwhelmingly prefer McCain to Obama.  Hillary Clinton backers here are as upset and enraged as anywhere else (if not more so)and McCain is doing very well in polls here.  Obama got NO bump in numbers from Tuesday night's declaration of winning the nomination.

    If Obama can't even carry New York State, where Democratic registration outnumbers Republican, how is he to win in November?  HOW???

    She's your Senator so ya'll may be (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Joan in VA on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:12:18 PM EST
    taking it a little harder than most. But, yes, I think he has a big problem in the GE. McCain is not going to get the treatment she got and the Dem primaries/caucuses(because they're so bizarre) were not a good test of his electoral strength.

    [ Parent ]
    It's the same here in Mass. (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Boston Boomer on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:16:28 PM EST
    I don't expect Obama to win here unless there some gigantic change in the trends.  His negatives are over 50% now, and it's usually hard to reverse those after the fact.  Massachusets went for Reagan twice and I don't think voters here will see McCain as being as bad as Bush.  Plus a lot of women politicians here are really angry at Kerry, Kennedy, and Patrick for not standing up for FL and MI.


    [ Parent ]
    Also, MA does have a Republican (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:39:34 PM EST
    infrastructure to fall back on, courtesy (among others) of Mitt Romney.  Unlike NY, discussed elsewhere in the this thread.

    Mass. is solidly blue in the polls now, but a few days after the first Wright incident, McCain was polling within 3 pts of Obama (this was a SUSA survey, take from it what you will).

    Also, Mass. still has a fairly large working class population and lots of families for whom gas prices alone takes away all their economic margin.    Clinton did very well among the working class here, as elsewhere, and very well among white women (ditto).  

    I still wouldn't expect to see McCain spend a lot of resources trying to win Mass., but a few more skeletons out of the closet, esp. right around election time could make it a much more purply state than my former Party would like.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, you may know more about it than I do. (none / 0) (#208)
    by Boston Boomer on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:19:55 AM EST
    I kind of doubt there is a real Republican infrastructure here based on Mitt.  We have had Republican governors here for a long time.  I've lived here since 1967, and Dukakis has been the only Democrat.  But I do know that McCain is already targeting MA.  They know they have a very good chance to pick up a lot of Clinton supporters, and MA was very strong for Hillary.  She won here by a bigger margin than PA, for example.  

    The thing is that MA is institutionally Democratic, not necessarily liberal.  That even holds true in Boston, where we have neighborhood enclaves like in NYC.  East Boston (Italians), South Boston (Irish), and so on.  And there are many working class towns in Western MA.  I can't imagine most of these traditional Democrats are going to buy into the JFK/RFK comparisons with BO.  I know I'm not buying it, and I'm not a native Bostonian, even though I've lived here most of my life.


    [ Parent ]

    Two shiny pennies from a New Yorker: (none / 0) (#95)
    by eustiscg on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:23:41 PM EST
    The fact of the matter is, we have the elected officials, we have the party machinery, and we have the infrastructure.  McCain and the RNC simply don't have the money to create Republican infrastructure from scratch here.  It's too much money on too long a shot.

    And, btw, this is what those elected officials will be saying over and over again from their bully pulpit: http://mydd.com/story/2008/6/7/15355/57111

    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps . . . (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:37:41 PM EST
    | The fact of the matter is, we have the elected
    | officials, we have the party machinery, and we  
    | have the infrastructure.  

    Sadly, the same things were true in 1980 and 1984 . . . when Ronald Reagan won the Empire state, twice. Let's hope history doesn't repeat itself.

    [ Parent ]

    I understand your concern ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by eustiscg on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:38:46 PM EST
    ... but John McCain is not Ronald Reagan.  Nuh-uh.  No way.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope you're right . . . (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Landulph on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:54:16 PM EST
    . . . but back in 1980, no Democrat in America thought RONALD REAGAN was Ronald Reagan. Carter's staffers were high-fiving each other when he clinched the GOP nom, thinking that an elderly B-movie actor was the only opponent their low-rated boss had a chance of defeating. A more innocent time . . .

    [ Parent ]
    True. People forget, and some never knew (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:05:16 PM EST
    because they don't know their history, that Reagan was still considered a sure loser as late as September.  I remember that fall well, as I was taking a class in politics and media from LBJ press secretary George Reedy when he took a call from WaPo's Ben Bradlee. (Yes, it was cool to take a class break because the prof had a call from WaPo.:-)  Bradlee was double-checking a piece that Reedy wrote, predicting that Reagan could win, and Bradlee thought it might be a prank piece.

    Btw, Reedy based that projection in part on a rise in sales of cowboy boots and hats and other western gear, a la Reagan's career on Death Valley Days.  So is the smart money on sales of, say, military gear a la McCain . . . or hip-hop CDs of "Dirt on My Shoulder" (and dogs**t on my shoe) a la Obama?

    [ Parent ]

    But We're Missing (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:38:39 PM EST
    the one thing we need...the media.  Money, power, structure...they don't mean a damn compared to the media.  

    The media have accomplished exactly what they set out to do...elevate a flawed candidate to the top of the ticket so that they can spend the next five months tearing him down and improving their ratings.  

    We are where we are today entirely because of the media.  What we eat, who we like, what we buy, how we perceive events...our entire lives are shaped by the media and their relentless pursuit of ratings.  The future of our country will be determined by the biases of a handful of media moguls who have vast exposure and no accountability.

    We're just along for the ride.

    [ Parent ]

    I just don't buy it ... (none / 0) (#202)
    by eustiscg on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 10:26:29 PM EST
    The media isn't conspiratorial.  It simply suffers from mass stupidity and laziness.  There's a huge difference.  Calling Clinton inevitable last fall was laziness.  Calling the "momentum" for Obama in March was stupidity.  (No such thing as momentum was statistically proven to exist in this primary).

    Now, the media, in their stupidity, will fall for a Republican smear or two on Obama.  But his ratings-boosting oratory, crafted in neat little soundbites, will cater equally to their laziness.  It's a toss-up, imho ...

    [ Parent ]

    I missed (5.00 / 13) (#80)
    by Jane in CA on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:01:44 PM EST
    the previous party unity thread, but I did want to say thank you to Jeralyn and BTD for sharing your thoughts and analyses with us over the last few months. I also want to thank all of the commenters that I have enjoyed so greatly.

    This blog has been the only voice of sanity for me over the last two months.  I've quit watching the news or reading news magazines, and I no do more than skim the headlines of my local paper.  I wholeheartedly echo those who say that this place has been a sanctuary from the madness and an oasis from the frothing-at-the-mouth hyperbole that has passed for media commentary this primary season.

    I will not support Obama.  Like many others, I know too much about him and do not believe that he is presidential timber.  Nor will I reward the democratic party for its loathsome behavior this primary. I greatly respect your choice to support him, Jeralyn, and will take my leave, grateful beyond words for the asylum you offered.

    Many thanks to BTD as well.  I have so enjoyed and admired his incisive commentary and ability to retain his eloquence even when thoroughly outraged.

    I'll leave another small contribution in thanks to both of you.  Best of luck with all your future endeavors.

    Jane (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by suki on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:31:00 PM EST
    I hope you don't go. I would really miss you.
    I have become addicted to BTD's political commentary and the way Jeralyn runs this wonderful site, so I'm staying, but would love to know if you have a destination in mind. I would like to keep in touch with you and others who say they are going.

    [ Parent ]
    Just went to The Moderate Voice (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by lilburro on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:13:40 PM EST
    where they featured brief snippets of reactions, including TL's.  

    Well my recommendation is - DON'T read Andrew Sullivan's!!  Maybe he saw this as his last chance to really exercise his misogyny.  

    From this great speech, Sullivan derived:

    I think history will show that she didn't quite have the talent to do it on her own steam, but that she made it much easier for another woman to become president one day. Her two biggest problems: She first married a man who was her political superior and was then defeated by one.

    Nice.

    Way to woo the troops! (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:18:04 PM EST
    I'd prefer that she were the nominee, but watching his supporters' ineptness is an amusing consolation pasttime.

    [ Parent ]
    Sullivan is a republican (5.00 / 7) (#94)
    by bjorn on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:23:15 PM EST
    and his Hillary hate has convinced me that he has no perspective whatsoever on her true contributions.  He is pig.

    [ Parent ]
    I generally don't.... (2.00 / 0) (#106)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:41:37 PM EST
    ...read Sullivan.  I think he is a horrid hypocrite and his personal habits (at least in the 90s) expose deep character flaws.

     But I haven't read much sexism into his comments.

    [ Parent ]

    Bwahahahahaha! (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:48:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Andrew Sullivan... (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by festus800 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:50:09 PM EST
    Has hated the Clintons for at least 15 years now.  Asking him to be impartial about them is like asking a child to be impartial about the bogeyman.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm shocked (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 09:26:27 PM EST
    Shocked, I tell you.

    [ Parent ]
    Catharsis (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by zyx on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:51:41 PM EST
    1. Go to your public library.  You'll feel better right away, probably.

    2. Check out James Wolcott's book, Attack Poodles.

    3. Read the chapter about Andrew Sullivan.  Wolcott had him pegged years ago for a witless inconsistent charlatan, and nobody can eviscerate a witless inconsistent charlatan like James Wolcott.  

    4. Have a nice drink while you are reading Wolcott on Sullivan, for that little extra glow.


    [ Parent ]
    Sullivan is a performance artist (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by mary kate on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:39:28 PM EST
    who knows how to work the crowd and give the people what they came to see.  He has been not only wrong but dramatically and spectacularly wrong on any number of important issues.  But he continues, unburdened by standards of evidence or fairness, and his self-regard undiminished by the accumulation of past failures.  The show must go on!

    [ Parent ]
    Somewhat ironicially (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by zyx on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:43:43 PM EST
    Gail Collins had a very good op-ed about Clinton's campaign in today's NYTimes.  Better than just about everything else she has written.  

    Blind pigs and acorns, I guess...

    Just venting... (5.00 / 4) (#116)
    by jennyd on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:00:33 PM EST
    You know, I've been rooting for Clinton for president since 2004. I thought she got everything--the nomination, the general election, and whatnot. Despite the apparent criticism she received during primary season, I still liked her more. I learned that with 18 million supporters, not everyone listens to the MSM. Still, I can't believe things turned out the way they did.

    Barack Obama is not ready to be president. I still won't vote for him. The more time progressed, the more reasons I had to dislike him. Until he learns to run a fair campaign without suspicious corrupt activities, and until he has better judgment of character instead of the classic "He wasn't the __ that I knew" excuse to his convenience, he will not earn my vote. He won't get those swing states. Best believe he probably won't get elected this coming November.

    I don't know who to vote for in November. I've never been a hardcore supporter of the Republican party, but I've always admired McCain for several reasons. I still have my doubts, but what difference does it make when we are stuck with two major parties that are equally questionable?

    We've got several months (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by eleanora on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:35:26 PM EST
    to see how Senator Obama runs against Senator McCain, to watch them debate and listen to their speeches, and to compare their records and new policy initiatives. When I'm stuck, I find it useful to write down my top issues and major questions and go looking for answers. That's why Senator Clinton my first choice, so I'm hoping Senator Obama comes up with some good, solid policies and positions that will help me vote for him, as McCain isn't an option for me.

    But I think all this "Decide Now or You're the Problem" stuff is really ill-considered. I hope you just take your time and do what's right for you in the GE. I'm mad at the Democratic Party too, but I still think we're better than the R's on the whole and plan to put my major time and effort into helping the local candidates I believe in. :)

    [ Parent ]

    A Long, Sad Day (5.00 / 9) (#128)
    by JimWash08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:24:19 PM EST
    Hi everyone: So my GF and I were at the "exit rally" today, and I cannot tell you what a, truly, weird experience it was. There was no doubt that there was a feeling of loss and sadness in the air, but the campaign did a good job of picking songs that were uplifting and incited hope and cha ... (sorry just threw up a little in my mouth) ... to pump up the atmosphere.

    I saw a heck of a lot of top-level officials and Clinton supporters there, and we got to say hello to Mary Steenbergen (sp?) and Ted Danson too. The atmosphere instantly changed when the Clinton family arrived and when Hillary started speaking, you could see the horror on people's faces as it began to sink in ...  that we were letting an amazing person slip away from a shot at the Presidency.

    You could see eyes moistening when she said she was endorsing BO and would throw her full support behind him. It felt like a ton of bricks were falling on our hearts and while many cheered and clapped, the booing was unmistakable.

    As sad as I am with the outcome, I'm happy that Hillary, her family and close friends won't be subject to the harsh treatment they've received in the last two years. I can only hope that they, esp. Hillary and Bill, rise from this quickly and are treated with respect and dignity from here on out, in whatever they do.

    -sad-

    Jim...thanks for sharing that...and you are (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:08:12 PM EST
    correct about feeling like a ton of bricks fell on your heart...you are not alone in those feelings.  It's just a hunch, but I believe down the road Hillary is going to be called up from the farm team to rescue the dems from everything obama.  Let's just wait and see.

    [ Parent ]
    What Psstt said. Me too.n/t (5.00 / 0) (#173)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:38:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes, so many times (none / 0) (#172)
    by zyx on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:37:47 PM EST
    I've had a lump in my throat and yeah, maybe a tear in my eye.  And I never thought I'd get emote-y like this.

    My retired neighbor told me what he and the other older guys he knows think about Obama--that he's "wet behind the ears" and doesn't have much experience.  These are the kind of people who had paper routes to help their families during the Depression years when they were 12 and who picked fruit and vegetables in the fields (in the Willamette Valley) every summer during their teens--worked all of their working years.  The working class--Hillary got some votes in Oregon...

    But we will vote like good Unity Yellow Dogs in November and Hopey for the best.

    [ Parent ]

    Such a sad day, (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by eleanora on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:26:53 PM EST
    for all those who worked so hard and believed so deeply. Can't stop crying myself, keep thinking I'm done and go to work or clean or cook dinner or talk to my family, then sit back down as the sorrow washes back over me. I'm so glad you were able to be there for her, what a great thing that she could see how many people had her back and never gave up. And that you and your GF got to mourn with a loving crowd and rejoice that we were lucky enough to have her. Bless you for letting us know how it went firsthand.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you for this post (5.00 / 3) (#182)
    by BostonIndependent on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:15:25 PM EST
    And people wonder why competent, decent patriots don't seek public office. After witnessing the treatment meted out to Hillary and Bill by the media, Axelrove and Obama's Chicago machine, young thugs in the caucuses and Obama's blogosphere -- your last sentiment struck home -- I do wish the Clintons will get some respite from, and respect after -- this historic campaign.

    I was amazed and continue to be awed by the strength and stamina she has demonstrated these past few months. Certianly not for the faint of heart. Anyone who can do that in my books can only go on to greater heights.

    [ Parent ]

    I"m looking (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by sas on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:41:04 PM EST
    forward to buying my

    PUMA

    T shirts and bumper stickers.

    what the heck is PUMA? (none / 0) (#184)
    by kredwyn on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:23:31 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    PUMA (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:41:02 PM EST
    was started by Riverdaughter at the Confluence. It's  a PAC. We kid that it's stands for "Party Unity My A$$", but it really stands for "People United Means Action". Jeralyn doesn't want us organizing against the Democratic Party here so I will not invite you to join us.  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    PUMA (none / 0) (#185)
    by LoisInCo on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:40:15 PM EST
    stands for Party Unity My Ass. It was a notion started with riverdaugher at the confluence. It has actually become a political pac.
    Fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea.
    [ Parent ]
    Opps (none / 0) (#186)
    by LoisInCo on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 07:40:55 PM EST
    sorry forgot to A** that word.
    Fish, plankton, sea greens and protein from the sea.
    [ Parent ]
    McCain (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:03:43 PM EST
    No, I'm not voting for him. But I was scouting his website and trying to size up how the general election might go. I found an ad of his in which he talks about Hispanic soldiers in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan and their service. It turns out to be from a response of his in a NH debate. What an impressive and bold answer to give in front of such an audience.

    There's a tendency among the lefty blogs right now to say, well we're done throwing false and hateful charges at each other; let's get together and throw false and hateful charges at McCain.

    I hope that doesn't happen.

    You know, I really hope it (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by suki on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:15:20 PM EST
    doesn't either. After seeing what was done to Senator Clinton, I've had enough false and hateful charges to last a lifetime.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm afraid it certainly will (none / 0) (#195)
    by daria g on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 09:18:46 PM EST
    Obama's supporters on the blogs hurt him.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah, there is that shift (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:36:11 PM EST
    but incivility and untruths still are verboten, I understand.  Whatever -- they just disappoint me more in their candidate and for this country, they just reaffirm me in deciding not to vote at all.

    And I don't think that's the change that the site hosts hope to see.  So bye for now, Edgar08; it has been good to talk with you here.

    So Big Brown lost the triple crown. (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 06:44:37 PM EST


    Too sad. (none / 0) (#191)
    by tek on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 08:19:12 PM EST
    I really missed seeing his signature run!  Something's wrong with him, he finished last.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you Jeralyn and Armando (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 08:51:38 PM EST
    I also missed the other threads before they closed and wanted to add my personal thanks to both of you for this site, for your comments and moderation. This place was truly a wonderful and for me only good place to read and discuss primary issues. I understand this site is primarily for legal related issues and as a participant I want to thank both of you (specially Jerlayn) for expanding the scope and providing a wonderful community.

    To everyone who posted here: thank you all, you all were great online friends, quite a few of your owe me screens and keyboards for making me spew coffee while reading the funny funny posts.

    Eventually, when I could no longer stomach MSM, I started relying on Talk Left for coverage and information. And I want to thank every brave participant who ventured to the "other" sites, or dared to turn on the deranged media and report back.

    But I can not in good conscience support someone just because the democratic party (or any group) tells me to do. If I did I would be a republican by nature. I have done my best to find the good in this outcome, and I see none. I only am left with the bitter realization of how misogynistic and backwards the "progressive" movement is. My eyes have been opened and I don't like what I see.

    I will lurk here occasionally, but I respect the purpose and mission of this blog. So in a way I am saying farewell to everyone. I will miss a lot of you. Some of the posters here who came and went not so much!

    Thank you all.

    I just woke up (4.55 / 9) (#11)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:50:27 PM EST
    And read some of the threads earlier today about the speech, and about TL's support for the Democratic nominee. As someone who agrees with Jeralyn's decision, and believes that the evils we have seen this primary season with the DNC, undemocratic allocation of votes, misogyny, ageism, and racism all pale in comparison with what will be in store for us under Sen. McCain, I would like to say to everyone out there that I will do my part to make sure this site never becomes a DailyKos, or an AmericaBlog type place.

    Something I have always loved about TL, and why I post here, is that it is a very unique vehicle for intelligent debate. I have made many great friends here, and come to better know what I stand for as a person and as a Democrat. I will always fight for everyone's voice to be heard in a logical and constructive manner. I have never experienced the intellectual freedom that I do here at TL, and that is something worth saving.

    To those who are leaving, some of whom I have come to call my friends, I wish you all the best of luck and hope you can find a safe home somewhere to express your own thoughts. Being here as a commenter with the rest of you has really made my own views of life broaden and become more inclusive. Thank you all for the experience, and I hope that you all decide not to go. You have made TalkLeft a wonderful place.

    And a huge thank you to Jeralyn, BTD, and TChris for the blog that they have run. If there's anything I can do to help keep the standards of TalkLeft high, to preserve the community you all have created, then please let me know. This is really one of the best places on the Net.

    What Obama needs are people on his side (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 02:52:24 PM EST
    who actually give a fig about what he says with regards to policy, instead of overlooking all his flaws.


    [ Parent ]
    Another Eerie Similarity (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:56:01 PM EST
    to George W. Bush.

    [ Parent ]
    This support for pary is what is (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Clinton2012 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:04:24 PM EST
    damning our nation.. we call to support WHO EVER our nominee would be from democratic party.. why?
    What has this Democratic party done in the midst of all the misogyny episodes.. HOW is it better than RNC?? Just tell be that and I will support Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Some good things (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:07:51 PM EST
    Have come from this, I think. Yes, we have seen misogyny. We have seen the MSM push a candidate on us. There has been youthful rebellion, ageism, and racism in this campaign.

    However, I know I have seen a lot of my friends, and a lot of people in general brought into the Democratic process. I still believe Democrats believe in leaving Iraq, and believe in cheaper college, better education, a woman's right to choose, and cheaper and more qualitative healthcare. In that way, it is much better than the RNC. Of the people I know at the local level, I have much greater respect for Democrats than I do for Republicans.

    We have seen some very bad and telling things this primary process. I just believe that the good still outweighs the negative.

    [ Parent ]

    But isn't it sad ... (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:10:25 PM EST
    that you have to type "I still believe"?

    [ Parent ]
    I will vote for person not party (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Clinton2012 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 03:11:31 PM EST
    and McCain is a lot better as a person than Obama. I  don't think there should be any place party loyalty in democracy.. it should be about person.. people..

    [ Parent ]
    Dalton (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by standingup on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 05:03:53 PM EST
    is one of the most respectful and rational Obama supporters posting on TalkLeft.  He wrote a very nice comment expressing his appreciation of the Clinton supporters and the great work from the TalkLeft admins to provide a civil site for all of us.  I did not see any push for people to vote for Obama now, just a statement of where he stands.

    I have enjoyed his comments and come to respect his  views about the election.  We may disagree but it is nice to be able to do that without getting personal.  

    [ Parent ]

    McCain (none / 0) (#96)
    by eustiscg on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 04:27:42 PM EST
    The man