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Thursday Open Thread

Do you have things on your mind other than what we are writing about today? Here's a place to vent them.

Earlier, Big Tent Democrat wrote "What Now?" describing what he will blog about here on out. He also posted (more) perspectives on sexism.

I'm glad to see TChris is back with his informative posts on continuing injustices.

The message if there is one: We will all survive. I plan to use Obama's promise of change to make specific requests on how to bring it about. I'm not a party activist. I'm an advocate for causes I believe in. I am going to support Barack Obama, but I'll be nudging him along every step of the way to do more. No free passes for anyone.

I'll be back tonight.

Comments now closed.

< A War Based on Lies | Hillary Clinton, Media Darling? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I am very interested (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:49:05 AM EST
    in the report that came out today regarding the BushCheney lies on Iraq.

    The most fascinating thing to me is the tone of the article. The NY Times seems much more exercised over the "partisanship" in the Senate Intelligence Committee than it does by the fact that we were, ya know, like, lied into an endless war and stuff.

    Episode #750,000 of "Why Our Media Sucks."

    "Not supported by evidence" (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Burned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    "exaggerations"

    When they no longer feel it necessary to avoid the word "lies", I will know we're moving to solid ground.

    [ Parent ]

    I totally agree with you! (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Binx on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:52:20 PM EST
    The whole time I was reading about the report I couldn't help but think "they are using every combination of words possible to avoid using the word 'LIE'".

    [ Parent ]
    Well, Media Matters has yet to utter word one about the manner in which the media unanimously slandered Senator Clinton last week for her reference to RFK.

    Instead, they have focused on the media's lack of criticism of McCain. Meanwhile, they've been quick to tamp down emerging signs of buyer's remorse among pundits who fell hard for Obama. At present, MediaMatters notes that the tingle worm has turned for Chris Matthews.

    The very same night that Obama 'clinched' the nomination Tweety started to question Obama's ability to connect with, and appeal to, the struggling middle class:

    But isn't there something missing -- isn't there something really missing in his biography that people can identify with? He's gone from being a poor kid, growing up in Hawaii, in Indonesia, part of his youth, mixed family background, had to struggle, worked with community organizations; went to these incredibly elite schools, Columbia and Harvard Law, making Law Review and all that.

    He missed the middle part. Most Americans don't know anything about being dirt poor and don't know anything about the Ivy League. They're sort of in this struggling class. The people in the middle worried about paying bills...

    Media Matters doesn't exactly bathe itself in glory when they use nothing but Obama's loosely factual memoirs to discount Matthews' conclusions.
    Evidently, Media Matters also has a hard time finding an independent, factually verifiable account of Obama's upbringing and personal history.

    I can't imagine Media Matters defending say, Bill Clinton, with nothing but quotations from his own auto-biography. Yet, that is what they have done for Obama, at some risk to their own professional reputation (imo). Meanwhile, ongoing sound of crickets on primary night slagging of Senator Clinton.  

     

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly, EXACTLY (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:28:02 PM EST
    as I predicted.

    MSNObama will soon become MSNMcCain. Olbermann and Maddow may hold out against the tide, but that will be about it.

    [ Parent ]

    Club Obama has Pests, Rethuggernaut has Thugs (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:12:06 PM EST
    Now you tell me which ones are a better bet keeping the media in line?

    I knew this would happen the instant Obama was the actual nominee, but dayum SenC's kung fu is good.

    She merely moved aside by suspending -- I hope that's what it'll be rather than conceding -- before muck from the long-pants media started hitting Obama.

    In closing, Heh.

    [ Parent ]

    "dirt poor" (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by ineedalife on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:09:19 PM EST
    What is the evidence that Obama was ever dirt poor? That his mom was briefly single? That she was briefly on food stamps? That ignores the fact that his grandparents, who were not remotely dirt poor, were standing by with the safety net. And that his grandparents did indeed step in and raise him. "Dirt poor" implies being genuinely concerned for where your next meal may come from. No safety net. A child is rarely aware that they are poor, even if they are, and there is no evidence that Obama was.

    So Matthews is actually being generous to Obama, saying he is tangentially associated with poorer people, even throwing in the gratuitous "had to struggle", whatever that means.


    [ Parent ]

    I still remember how both (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:55:17 AM EST
    nytimes and wapo in their pompous editorials tried to justify the war then. They had misgivings for sure but they were too scared to swim against the tide.

    I think that is what is wrong with the MSM, they would rather go with the majority opinion rather than the right opinion. That is why bloggers who are not scared to voice their opinions will rise to prominence.

    [ Parent ]

    I remember if you went against Bush (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by stefystef on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:04:13 PM EST
    you were treated as a traitor.  And the MSM helped to promote that imagine.  They were scared to go against Bush and would never ask real questions nor did they vet any of the information coming out of the White House.

    Now they try to act like the media was on top of everything at that time and any senator who voted for the war is a bad person.  

    Americans are guilty of one thing... short-term memory.

    [ Parent ]

    Kinda like the obama campaign...you are (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:15:33 PM EST
    either for us or against us...isn't he related to cheney and bush....if that is the case; it explains alot.

    [ Parent ]
    got a link? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:00:25 PM EST
    For the Obama campaign's "for us or against us" stance?

    [ Parent ]
    Newt....you go find the link...maybe that will (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:04:42 PM EST
    give you less time to bug on here....thanks for playing...

    [ Parent ]
    Which leads back to... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:11:39 PM EST
    probably the main reason HRC voted for the AUMF - can you imagine being a Senator from NY at that time (who was around during 9/11) and NOT voting for it?  That always seems to get lost in the accusations....

    [ Parent ]
    w-w-w- (5.00 / 0) (#175)
    by kredwyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:50:39 PM EST
    d-a-i-l-y-k-o...

    errr...

    lots o' places.

    [ Parent ]

    Nice retort..... (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:51:10 PM EST
    ...I'll remember that the next time one of the Gotalink trolls responds to one of my posts.

    [ Parent ]
    I Can't Speak To Those (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by daring grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:01:05 PM EST
    who incessantly ask for links as a trolling activity.

    But when I ask for one it's because I googled the point in question and couldn't find anything that backed up what was being alleged. And because I know myself to be an excellent (but not infallible) researcher, I need to ask for a link.

    If that's considered troll behavior, so be it. I think (in my case, anyway) it's trying to give a fair listen to an opposing viewpoint.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly (none / 0) (#112)
    by sociallybanned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:12:22 PM EST
    O I'm going to steal this from you so I can post everyone because it rings so true.  

    [ Parent ]
    Remember freedom fries? (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:38:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And the punchline is ... (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:13:30 PM EST
    Francophobe Bob Ney (R- Grand Sac de D0uche) who spearheaded "freedom fries" as the GOP attack on all things French, has a French surname and, presumably, considerable geneological ties to France.

    So, too, do Frenchypants like "Total" Dick Cheney, Richard Perle and Tom "Man Purse" DeLay.

    What's the French word I'm looking for ... oh I know: idiots.

    [ Parent ]

    Plain Dumb (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Brookhaven on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    And, one of the Congressmen who came up with that ditty "Freedom Fries" in 2003 because the French opposed the US going to war, came to the conclusion 2 years later that the US had no justification going to war with Iraq.  Glad he changed his mind but jeez louise, he gave the Europeans more reason to call us rubes and in that instance they were right.  And, not only because of the cringe-worthiness of the stupidity of the change itself but also because when the French Embassy got wind of the freedom fries caper, they very pithily responded that french fries came from Belgium.   Ouch. And, you could just hear them chuckling under their breath while making that pronouncement.  

    And, if that weren't bad enough.  I also remember during this time, I saw a report on CNN where some people were dumping their already bought and paid for bottles of French Wine to hurt the French Wine Industry.

    I was scrathing my head and lol at the same time because they let their blind misplaced anger at the French (and in particular Wine Makers/Distributors, etc.) turn into sheer stupidity.  How could their dumping the contents of already paid for French wine hurt the French Wine Industry?  Jeebus.

    Outside of the continued battered image of Americans in Europe and not only because of Iraq, the image of those Americans dumping their already bought French wine with the purpose of hurting the French Wine Industry had to be one of the more embarrasing images of us beemed across the pond.  It just played right into their already snarky opinion of us (oftentimes as unfair and assy wrong as it is fair).  

    [ Parent ]

    No doubt the French..... (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:47:41 PM EST
    ...relished the idea of selling them more bottles of French wine to dump.

    [ Parent ]
    aaah yes, freedom fries...more stupidity from (none / 0) (#103)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:05:29 PM EST
    the senate/congress.

    [ Parent ]
    And what do you think about (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:58:56 AM EST
    the ThinkProgress piece?

    The Bush administration is bypassing the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee and is talking directly with Democrats about re-writing the nation's surveillance laws. ""He's not really in it," Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) says of his colleague, Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO). "Bond, he's just complicating things." Bond said the White House has "assured him that it was not negotiating behind his back."

    I can't say as I have much trust or faith in a Rockefeller-headed re-writing of surveillance laws; that the Bush administration is even willing to work with Democrats on this gives me pause.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh Lord... (5.00 / 7) (#16)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:08:44 PM EST
    you know what that means to me?

    Kit Bond is AGAINST telecom immunity (probably some Libertarian tendencies showing there) and the weak, spineless Dems like "Show Me Da Money" Rockefeller are FOR it.

    Jeebus Christmas.

    I wasn't bitter before this 2008 election, but I'm sure getting there!

    [ Parent ]

    Approval Rating (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:18:45 PM EST
    TP also has article on Bush approval rating at it's lowest point of 25%. And still the Democrat's are afraid to stand up to him. I really find this unbelievable. How bad does he have to get before they finally say enough. No immunity no more anything.

    [ Parent ]
    Are They Afraid To Stand Up To Bush (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:35:49 PM EST
    on the telecom issue or do many of them agree with his position? Maybe it just comes down to the fact that they would prefer to have the telecom $$$ in their campaign chests rather than having it used against them come election time.

    [ Parent ]
    I call the warrantless wiretapping (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:44:31 PM EST
    the "Democrat Surveillance Program." Think about it - what is Bush REALLY using it for? It sure didn't stop 9/11, now, did it?

    Blackmail would explain a lot of the behavior of our Dems since taking their slim majority in 2006.

    [ Parent ]

    And you (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:50:58 PM EST
    know what's even more amazing? They want to have a "unity pony" who will work with these losers.

    Frankly, it's why I don't think Obama losing in Nov would be any big deal. The GOP will run all over him too. It won't matter if they have a majority or not, they always seem to get their way even now.

    [ Parent ]

    maybe the leadership should concentrate on this (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:04:26 PM EST
    instead of interfering in the dem. primary

    [ Parent ]
    Flying Under the Radar (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by santarita on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:07:09 PM EST
    The Senate Report continues to add evidence on the already obvious - the leadership of this country misled us - through omission of information and twisting information.  The partisanship is for obvious reasons.  In an election cycle, how can one party admit that its current leaders are culpable in the unmerited invasion of another country?  I have two questions:

    1.  How will Obama change the partisanship?  Unless he brings in a substantial number of true Democrats (and not DINOs) on his coattails, he will face a Congress with a substantial group opposed to anything he proposes, whether the opposition is rational or not.

    2.  Can this country redeem itself from the stain of an unmerited  invasion of another country and all of its horrid consequences domestically and in Iraq without bringing to account those people who misled the American people into supporting the invasion?  


    [ Parent ]
    But (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:37:36 PM EST
    will anything be done about it? Or will we only have  a report to show for all of this? I don't see how we heal ourselves as a country if we don't hold our officials accountable for the horrors done in our name. We have to take responsibility for what we've done.

    [ Parent ]
    You (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:45:43 PM EST
    aren't kidding? Where is the NYT taking responsibility for this mess? Judith Miller anyone? I can't believe these idiots. Oh, wait, yes I can.

    [ Parent ]
    So what's going on (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:49:22 AM EST
    with all those hearings and subpenas? Now with the primaries over will the Dem's get back to work and hold any of these crooks accountable? It's been two years and time is running out.

    My Guess (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Dave B on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:51:26 AM EST
    Democrats will be afraid of offending any Republicans who might cross over in November.  Nothing will happen...

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:16:20 PM EST
    That's the reason we have so many more Republican Presidents! They're never too concerned about upsetting the opposition. They concentrate on securing their base. Something the Dem's seem to have a tough time with these days.

    [ Parent ]
    Well The New Democratic Party Has (4.70 / 10) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:31:00 PM EST
    secured its base. It is just a much smaller base than it use to be.

    The "Big Tent" has been replaced with the "Obama Tent." It no longer needs the support of seniors, non-AA working class folks, some hispanics or women.  

    [ Parent ]

    I'd like to share this video about Hillary (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by stefystef on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:01:17 PM EST
    Hillary's Passionate Journey

    http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4995731&affil=wabc

    It's from Good Morning America on Wednesday morning.
    I watched this and thought to myself... this is the nice, kindest, most uplifting piece on Hillary in the last 15 years.

    And I was pissed off. It's like when people die, it's the only time people find something nice to say about them.

    Hell, Nixon was praised and Reagan was given a royal funeral.
    It makes me angry when you can only say something nice about someone when they are gone.

    Where were these types of reports when she was running? The whole MSM is the main reason Hillary's message never got out there because they were so busy trying to bring her down.

    By the way, Hillary WAS NOT running for a third Bill Clinton term, like some stupid woman in the piece said... Hillary was running for her own Presidency.

    She's smarter than either Obama or McCain. And as usual, the smart girl is pushed to the back for a bunch of boys. How many woman have been used to help bring up new men in a corporation, only to be pushed out and/or marginalized so the boys get their power back.

    Howard Ickes said it perfectly... Hillary is better than her campaign.


    For me a vote for the dem. nominee (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:24:42 PM EST
    is a vote for the way the DNC, the blogs, and MSM mistreated Hillary during this campaign. If they get away with this again they'll keep doing it. I'll say it again, I won't be voting for him. I'll vote down ticket but not the top

    [ Parent ]
    Throwing Hillary under the bus? (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by DarielK on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:48:49 PM EST
    I just heard on MSNBC (Andrea Mitchell) that Charlie Rangle told Hillary that this was not her party anymore and that she should just drop out.  Not her party anymmore?  What does that mean?  I thought this was "our" party, not her party or his party.  Talk about a stab in the back.  Good-bye to party unity.  

    [ Parent ]
    pulling a brazille (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:58:31 PM EST
    I paraphrase her momma:  I'm sick of people in my party saying "my party."

    [ Parent ]
    where did Andrea get that? (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by DFLer on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:04:54 PM EST
    Charlie Rangal was most (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:16:11 PM EST
    gracious, I thought. Didn't hear him throw her or anyone else off the bus.

    [ Parent ]
    Andrea just knows..... (none / 0) (#185)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:54:36 PM EST
    ...what Charlie really meant. No need to report what he actually said.

    [ Parent ]
    Sounds like he was saying, (none / 0) (#171)
    by jackyt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:49:09 PM EST
    "The lunatics are running the asylum, now. You've done all that is humanly possible to stem the tide. Stop beating your head against this particular stone wall." The way I'm hearing it, it sounds compassionate.

    I believe Charley Rangel is a true democrat and a true friend to Hillary. She has taken public abuse like no one in my lifetime. At some point, true friends give you permission, even encouragement, to walk away from an abusive relationship.

    [ Parent ]

    What we have lost is incalculable (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Foxx on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:47:34 PM EST
    People saw something brilliant and beautiful, far beyond themselves, and it made them so angry they had to destroy it.

    It is a tragedy for the country and the planet. If it happens, and it may still, she will be a great president.

    [ Parent ]

    links must be in html format (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:04:15 PM EST
    or they skew the site. Use tinyurl.com if you can't figure out how to link.

    [ Parent ]
    The CHANGE I'm looking for is already starting: (none / 0) (#105)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:09:25 PM EST
    On Good Morning America Thursday, ABC News' Chief Washington Correspondent George Stephanopoulos reported "the Democratic National Committee will no longer accept contributions from federal lobbyists, will no longer take contributions from PACs" in keeping with Obama's well-publicized policy.


    [ Parent ]
    federal lobbyists funded Obama til 2007 (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Josey on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:32:46 PM EST
    when he turned "ethical" to compete with Edwards who had never accepted donations from them.
    Obama was even accepting donations from federal lobbyists while he was pushing through the important Ethics bill that Reid gave a newbie senator to pump up his legislative record before his presidential run.
    Lobbyists are now required to stand while eating, rather than sit - and their money is still flowing through Congress.
    But it's a start!

    [ Parent ]
    Tyranny alert.... (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:02:39 PM EST
    Military-style checkpoints in high crime area of DC.  Link

    What really burns me about it is the "legitimate purpose" caveat....in the America I know "because I feel like it" is a legitimate purpose, though I doubt the DC cops would like that answer.

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by eric on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:37:44 PM EST
    that's scary.  Really scary.  Ironically, it's the cops that don't have the "legitimate purpose".

    BTW, here's my answer to the question:  "Because I wanted to experience fascism firsthand."

    [ Parent ]

    Good answer Eric..... (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    I was thinking of just busting into song....

    "This land is my land, this land is your land..."

    Or maybe some Cole Porter....

    "Give me land, lots of land, under starry skies above...don't fence me in".

    [ Parent ]

    Among the 1,842 things that bother me about this (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:45:39 PM EST
    Slippery slope arguments that started being swatted away on 9/12 by those who wanted to ram through the GOP's wet dream of a unilateral presidency.

    Of course partisan locksteppers were quick to apply ridiculous arguments that hard earned rights could be shredded under the pretense of Nat'l Security concerns because if you were doing nothing "wrong" why would you be worried?

    And RW hacks, instead of focusing on the rights being shredded, instead helpfully swarmed peoople who'd been deprived as deserving it.

    From the link, and why I'll probably never join a political party again in my lifetime -- unless it's a gathering with snacks and suds to watch election returns -- but always support "special interests" I believe in, like the ACLU.

    "My reaction is, welcome to Baghdad, D.C.," said Arthur Spitzer, legal director for the ACLU's Washington office. "I mean, this is craziness. In this country, you don't have to show identification or explain to the police why you want to travel down a public street."

    Can you believe there's a huge segment of society that regards upholding the Constituion as dangerously Liberal (aka evil)?

    [ Parent ]

    Rezko verdict kept undercover (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by stefystef on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:05:19 PM EST
    The press has hardly mention anything about the Rezko verdict.
    Already, the same "cocoon" that the media put around Bush for so long is going around Obama.

    this blog covered it but not a whisper on kos (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:08:27 PM EST
    the MSM gave it the same no coverage.

    [ Parent ]
    Kos is too busy doing FP stories on (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Burned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:19:40 PM EST
    the color and grossness of McCain's teeth.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 8) (#28)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    Because that's what being a progressive is all about - making fun of people's physical characteristics. Had to point out yesterday to a couple of Obama-supporting co-workers
    that is probably isn't in their candidate's best interest for people to making fun of the opponent who can't raise his arms above his head because he sat in a cage for 6 years.  Probably won't play well to most people and comes off as childish and elitist. Especially when their candidate doesn't have anything remotely resembling that on his resume...

    Bus this is what happens when you have a campaign built around the support of children.

    [ Parent ]

    Agreed (none / 0) (#58)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:32:21 PM EST
    Mocking McCain's appearance isn't going to work with the groups we need to attract. IMHO it comes off as disrespecting a war hero because of the injuries he suffered - whether the characteristics were actually a result of his service or not. I also suspect that we need to stay away from the age argument. There seems to be lots of sensitivity to that issue amongst voters who feel invisible/dismissed because of their age.

    Now is someone can trigger a big public meltdown, that might help the Dems cause.

    [ Parent ]

    I am hoping for an obvious (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:35:25 PM EST
    "macaca" moment from McCain.

    Heaven knows he has the temperament for it.

    I don't like my choices for Preznit this year, and I won't vote Obama, but I just hate the idea of McCain so much...an implosion is the best we can do, I think.

    [ Parent ]

    My guess is obama will have a macaca (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:09:48 PM EST
    moment before McCain...could be wrong, but I don't think so.  obama has been gaffeing his way through this campaign, escalating with each one...waiting for the final one that breaks the camel's back.

    [ Parent ]
    Handy phrase: Obama will have a Macaca ... (5.00 / 0) (#176)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:50:53 PM EST
    Because it's happening more frequently and since his defenders can't focus on the Bad Monster Lady, they'll have to get his back on this stuff.

    It's just a matter of time before Club Obama will discover that the foot (yet again) in BO's mouth is made of clay.

    [ Parent ]

    It might be the other way around (none / 0) (#67)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:38:07 PM EST
    If Mccain picks Lieberman for VP the Macaca moment will be some off hand quip about the Jews or Aipac from an Obam surrogate.

    These Obama guys have not dispalyed discipline on the insults so far.  One outburst from a surrogate will blow up fast.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh Salo... (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:45:55 PM EST
    I don't believe Obama has a prayer.

    It's just that I'm a Democrat.

    Stupid me.

    [ Parent ]

    Leiberman? (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:02:19 PM EST
    I see no way for McCain to pick Leiberman. He has as much trouble with his base as Obama does right now. Thet would boil him in oil if he went with Leiberman. I would expect him to appoint him to cabinet but not VP.

    [ Parent ]
    There is considerable (none / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:34:29 PM EST
    room for the GOP to use agent provocateurs.  I know I would. If Lieberman were to be picked as his VP, you could easily see all sorts of wierd race cards being played.  LGF are already doing this with LIeberman and his name has on really been mentioned by Dick Morris so far.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you think (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:05:10 PM EST
    that Lieberman would be a good choice?  That isn't going to win many HRC supporters if that's what McCain is looking to do - don't most people think Lieberman is a joke?

    [ Parent ]
    McCain will not pick (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:26:08 PM EST
    LIEberman.  he wants to attract the democrats O is alienating.  that would be the worst possibly way to do that.

    [ Parent ]
    Liebernann's only chance in politics now (none / 0) (#116)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:17:55 PM EST
    is a Cabinet post.  He's history as far as getting votes ever again.

    [ Parent ]
    probably not from the chosen one (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:24:09 PM EST
    Roll Call reports that during a Senate vote today, Sen. Barack Obama "dragged" Sen. Joe Lieberman "by the hand to a far corner of the Senate chamber and engaged in what appeared to reporters in the gallery as an intense, three-minute conversation."

    "While it was unclear what the two were discussing, the body language suggested that Obama was trying to convince Lieberman of something and his stance appeared slightly intimidating."

    [ Parent ]

    oh, and he has other problems (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:24:40 PM EST
    Reid signals Lieberman may lose chairman status: Developing...

    [ Parent ]
    Convince him (none / 0) (#160)
    by pie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:44:24 PM EST
    not to pull a Zell Miller and speak at the Republican convention?

    :)

    [ Parent ]

    At this point (none / 0) (#184)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:54:27 PM EST
    I'd be happy to speak at the Republican Convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Samantha Power (none / 0) (#173)
    by Foxx on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:49:24 PM EST
    "just look at her, ergh"

    [ Parent ]
    ewww (none / 0) (#23)
    by KittyS on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:28:36 PM EST
    McCain needs to fire his PR dept.

    [ Parent ]
    Subjective reality (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:42:17 PM EST
    These are the same sites that came into being and to prominence by taking the MSM to task for their distorted and biased coverage of the news. I guess it's only distorted and biased when it's convenient to your cause?

    [ Parent ]
    Rezko relationship w/Obama was (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:22:26 PM EST
    covered/defended on DK.  

    [ Parent ]
    NYT's didn't mind stepping in.... (none / 0) (#164)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:46:38 PM EST
    link

    [ Parent ]
    Don't worry... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by santarita on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:09:44 PM EST
    The Republicans are adding the conviction to their top 10 character assault lists.

    [ Parent ]
    RNC (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Dave B on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:29:45 PM EST
    The RNC has already cut an ad about the relationship between the Democratic Nominee and Rezko.  They did not accuse Obama of anything, aside from poor judgement.

    I won't put up a link to it.

    [ Parent ]

    No he was in the original cut but.... (none / 0) (#195)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:59:04 PM EST
    ...they took him out when Clinton dropped out. Because, the Republicans, in case you didn't realize it, are running against Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    The timing of the verdict was pretty good (none / 0) (#14)
    by JoeA on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:07:30 PM EST
    for Obama.  That and the fact that he was barely mentioned in the trial and there is zero indication that he did anything wrong.

    [ Parent ]
    And on the Resko verdict (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:47:22 PM EST
    Obama said "this was not the person I knew." Have you heard him say that before...I have!

    [ Parent ]
    Can you imagine (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by madamab on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:29:35 PM EST
    if someone Hillary knew well and was linked to financially was indicted for corruption?!

    The cover-up is quite obvious if you think about it that way.

    [ Parent ]

    Did You Mean This John Hsu? (none / 0) (#220)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:13:59 PM EST
    A member of the Cornell music faculty from 1955 until his retirement in 2005, John Hsu taught lessons in cello and viola da gamba, and courses in music ...

    Or did you really mean Norman Hsu, a convicted pyramid investment promoter who associated himself with the apparel industry. His business activities were intertwined with his role as a major fundraiser for the Democratic Party and who was one of Obama's contributers.

    You really need to find a better example because questions about Norman Hsu raise questions about Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree that it is probabe and there is (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:18:59 PM EST
    no evidence Obama did anything wrong. (Jeralyn, please don't get mad a me) But.....why, during the trial did Obama have someone there taking notes? I'm not suggesting anything, I've just not had that question answered.

    [ Parent ]
    wouldn't you, if you were running for (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:21:40 PM EST
    the Dem. nom. for President and you knew the press was covering the trial of a person with whom you associated for 17 years, that person being a campaign contributer, host of campaign fundraisers, the fellow who enabled you and your wife to acquire your mansion?  Be pretty foolish not to.

    [ Parent ]
    Completely naive (5.00 / 0) (#194)
    by Foxx on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:58:58 PM EST
    to think Obama was unaware of all the corruption committed by the very people he was doing political business with on a daily basis.

    I simply find it impossible to believe he wasn't involved in it. Whether we will ever have the proof and whether it will ever make it into the news is another question.

    [ Parent ]

    Have you been here? (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Jeannie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:13:40 PM EST
    http://liberalrapture.com/

    There is a fabulous bible scripture this morning on Obama and Rezko..... don't miss it!

    Hilarious (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by eric on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:46:46 PM EST
    That blogger has talent and a lot of time on her/his hands.

    From Axelrod's Letter to the Arugulas

    Ha Ha!

    [ Parent ]

    Loved this.... (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:57:37 PM EST
    And the underside of the bus did runneth over.

    ...as well as the part about Christopher of the tingling leg.

    [ Parent ]

    OMFG (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:20:55 PM EST
    And Wright spoke freely to the Weasels
    of the darkness in his heart
    For he loved his resentments
    And chewed on them like a never ending delicious Porterhouse Steak.
    His resentments were good

    thank you for that.
    bookmarked

    [ Parent ]

    The Quote of the Week (none / 0) (#224)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:22:00 PM EST
    is hysterical!:

    If only Hillary would give Obama one of her cajones, then they would both have two.

    James Carville

    I bookmarked it too.  Thanks!

    [ Parent ]

    More.... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Jeannie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:01:03 PM EST
    If you scroll down there are more scriptures, too. So funny!
    I go there every day hoping there are more....

    [ Parent ]
    I do have something on my mind. McCain is similar (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by sociallybanned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:25:49 PM EST
    to Obama more than you think.
    Anthony Arnove wrote:
    Will Obama stop the war?

    One of the most important reason for his success is the belief among millions of supporters that he alone among the major candidates is committed to stopping the war on Iraq and charting a radically different course for U.S. foreign policy. But is Obama really the anti-warrior he is made out to be?

    PEOPLE WHO believe Barack Obama will end the occupation of Iraq are likely in for a rude awakening. Despite talking about withdrawal from Iraq, his plan would keep troops in the country for years to come, likely well beyond his potential first term.

    In addition to the mercenaries and private contractors, that would leave tens of thousands of troops involved in so-called counterinsurgency operations. That's the same rationale the Bush administration uses for keeping troops in Iraq. Other troops would stay for "training" operations. This, too, is the Bush argument: we'll stand down as the Iraqis stand up.

    Take the issue of troop levels. Obama's Web site says, "Obama will increase the size of ground forces, adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines." What do we imagine the purpose of those troops will be? To provide housing for homeless people? To teach children who are illiterate? To wipe out malaria and easy preventable diseases that kill millions of children ever year?

    No, those troops will be charged with protecting U.S. corporate interests globally, preserving "stability," protecting and training dictators aligned with the United States, and suppressing any struggles that threaten the interests of U.S. rulers and elites.

    What worries me now is that this wonderful site talkleft.com is now going to be for Obama and while McCain doesn't look appealing, I'm outweighing and researching the differences between both, behind the curtain of BS, it's no different  McCain before 2000 was more of a moderate.  He wanted his presidency so bad that he lined up with the Republicans and voted their way.  However, I don't buy it, he has been talking about greener technologies and I believe it.   Listening to Obama unrehearsed talk and what he has always stood for is the real him. Obama doesn't have much to stand on.  He rarely had interviews and when he did, he sounded more like a Republican.  Obama doesn't have much of a voting record with the exception of the one he stole from Clinton.  

    Taxes is another issue.  I think taxing to better our country is important but not now when payroll hasn't increased with inflation that adding more tax would kill us off instead of drowning and coming up for air.  Obama's plans show a big tax increase.  We can't afford it now!  It will only lead to more homelessness and more ppl getting on fed. govt. aid which in turn will result into even more taxes.

    I am voting for McCain.  I love Hillary but I can not vote for Obama when I know his true intentions.

    what preview means

    Listening to Obama unrehearsed talk and what he has always stood for is the real him.

    This wasn't clear.  Listening to Obama unrehearsed speeches definitely gives me the impression he doesn't always portray himself as he does on paper (record).  

    My observation (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Cate on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:29:43 PM EST
    in perusing this most recent open thread is there are a lot of handles new to me - not that I have been here that long myself. But, missing are the ones I have been accustomed to seeing. Anyway, I just thought I would comment that it appears the 'times they are achanging' here at TL. Good luck to you Jeralyn as you have been a wonderful haven but as you morph into another Brownshirts for Obama site I must say 'adieu.'

    Riverdaughter at Confluence has the welcome mat out to those of us who will never give up, never give in.

    On the contrary, (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by songster on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:40:36 PM EST
    here's a relatively new reader, a Hillarian, happy to stay right here, reading stuff that will help me think things through in a sane and balanced way.
    And get my focus a little off this *!$% election.

    I'm not interested in "giving in", either.

    [ Parent ]

    The primary is over (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:51:11 PM EST
    I am definitely not in the Obama camp but there isn't anything I can do to change the outcome. I'm from Illinois and my vote this election isn't going to matter one iota. Obama will do fine here without me. But there is life after the primary and there are still pressing questions that should be debated. We may not be able to alter the past but hopefully we can still have an intellegent debate of the future.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe we are just tired but lurking. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:50:54 PM EST
    Sometimes everybody is saying what I am thinking and so I rate them because I agree. If it is one of those days or nights, then no reason to write anymore. But, everyone is here. Just taking a second breath. And the site will be about issues and making sure Obama or McCain are not tying to put one over on us. That makes us concerned citizens. Whether we vote for Obama or McCain in the GE or not vote at all, that is our right. And that thought is liberating. We are in control of our own vote and without guilt. So stick around. Every body is still here.  

    [ Parent ]
    UHC without mandates is NOT UHC (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:34:50 PM EST
    Hillary's primary opponent ridiculed her UHC plan saying it would force people to buy coverage when they couldn't afford it, or didn't want it, a mandate. Uninsured are a major reason for the high cost of health care, or does he not realize this?

    So, what's the difference between his plan and McCains? McCain offers tax credits which are virtually useless if you're in college, disabled, unemployed, didn't file a tax return or a child.

    Does he even require insurers to cover pre-existing illnesses?

    So It Will Be Perfectly Above Board If The (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:50:29 PM EST
    Republicans run their own "Harry and Louise" ads distorting Obama's health care plan. After all it does contain mandates requiring that parents insure their children.  

    Obama or McCain doesn't make much difference on health care since Congressional Dems have already said that they will be too, too busy to tackle any major changes to health care anytime soon (Probably gearing up for 2010 elections).  I think Hillary would have tried to push them forward on this but I doubt Obama will.

    My prediction is that the only real change anyone will see on the health care front is an expansion of the S-Chip program that got bipartisan support prior to Bush's veto.

    [ Parent ]

    I fear (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    you are right but I hope you aren't. I have this little wish that Ellizabeth Edwards and Hillary Clinton are going to form an alliance to champion this issue as I fully expect it to disappear from sight otherwise.

    [ Parent ]
    Mandated vs non-madated has been covered (none / 0) (#134)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:25:19 PM EST
    elsewhere, but my understanding is that mandating coverage puts more of a burden on the middle class to pay the overall costs.  I'd like to see a good analysis of UHC that specifically addresses this.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:48:38 PM EST
    actually mandating coverage is about spreading the risk over a large pool of insurees thereby making policy costs go down. Obama's plan would actually make things worse short term.

    [ Parent ]
    more Obama propaganda! (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Josey on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:55:00 PM EST
    that per Hillary's plan, the poor would be forced to buy insurance!  Obama repeated this lie over and over - and Obamamites believed him!! because it reflected their learned belief that the Clintons are Eeeeevil.
    Hate is a powerful drug and often zaps comprehension and common sense.
    Hillary's plan gave free or subsidized health care to the poor.


    [ Parent ]
    new word (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:05 PM EST
    propOganda

    [ Parent ]
    You know what I heard? (none / 0) (#226)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:48:31 PM EST
    All of our health care woes can be solved via increased competition from private corporations. I'd like to see a good analysis of what the free market can do to improve health care.

    [ Parent ]
    Big Smile (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:42:24 PM EST
    Found a very interesting post on sexism in the campaign. It included a very comical JibJab clip that I couldn't figure out how to link to without the article.

    Link

    Scroll down to the Jib Jab clip.


    We aren't turning into a (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:01:29 PM EST
    cheerleader for Obama site. See BTD's post.

    I plan on voting for him but I doubt he'll be a dominant topic of my posts here. When he is the subject of my posts, it will probably be to urge him to do something.

    For example, if I didn't have to leave for the jail right now, I'd be writing a long post on why he should choose a criminal defense attorney for Attorney General and how disappointed I will be if he picks career prosecutors for important posts in his Administration.

    Does that sound like cheerleading to you? It's a given that McCain will do those things, but I plan to use Obama's promise of change to make specific requests on how to bring it about.

    I'm not a party activist. I'm an advocate for causes and candidates I believe in.

    "Revealed: Secret plan . . (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:03:57 PM EST
    . . . to keep Iraq under US control"

    A secret deal being negotiated in Baghdad would perpetuate the American military occupation of Iraq indefinitely, regardless of the outcome of the US presidential election in November.

    The terms of the impending deal, details of which have been leaked to The Independent, are likely to have an explosive political effect in Iraq. Iraqi officials fear that the accord, under which US troops would occupy permanent bases, conduct military operations, arrest Iraqis and enjoy immunity from Iraqi law, will destabilise Iraq's position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country.

    Link

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#50)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:24:18 PM EST
    If Obama does somehow win in November, he can take a page out of the Bush administration handbook and throw the treaty out. They've had no trouble with this strategy, even with the quaint Geneva Convention.

    [ Parent ]
    har har har (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:28:06 PM EST
    no he wont.

    [ Parent ]
    prediction (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:59:46 PM EST
    he will change his stated policy on withdrawing from Iraq before the election.
    I want to see what the chorus boys do then.

    [ Parent ]
    How true (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:05:34 PM EST
    I think a lot of his supporters are going to be wondering where their great "progressive" idealist has gone. The sad part of it is, he was never there.

    [ Parent ]
    And neither would Hillary.... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:31:06 PM EST
    Occupation is the party line of the Democratic Party, pay no attention to their pandering rhetoric about being against a prolonged occupation...it's all for show.

    We'll be there in 2012 and beyond, no matter who wins.

    [ Parent ]

    Other Than Kucinich, None Of The Dem (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:43:04 PM EST
    candidates would have completely ended the occupation IMO.

    [ Parent ]