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Monday Afternoon Open Thread

General Wesley Clark will by the primary guest on friend of Jeralyn's Dan Abrams' show The Verdict tonight at 9 EST on MSNBC.

I will live blog the General's appearance. This is an Open Thread.

Over at daily kos, Lt. Gen. Robert Gard (USA Ret.) defends General Clark's statements. If you are a kossack, please try and get it some attention. It is well worth a read.

Columbia Journalism Review pans the Beltway Media's awful coverage of the Clark event.

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    More TV listings (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:04:51 PM EST
    Mark Blumenthal reports that we can watch a whole focus group conducted by Peter D. Hart on C-Span at 8PM tonight.

    And my DC market count: one Obama ad, no McCain ads. Target Virginia, I presume.

    Speaking of TV listings and COMPLETELY OT (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:33:08 PM EST
    Have any of you seen "Cash Cab" on the Discovery Channel?  What a hoot!

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#43)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:37:03 PM EST
    Yeah, it's hilarious when they decide to ask some random doofus on the sidewalk for help and the guy actually knows the correct answer!  A well-educated city, New York.

    Parent
    heh, indeed. (none / 0) (#57)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:45:49 PM EST
    My new city next month, too.

    Parent
    Ah, a hint. (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:54:34 PM EST
    Welcome to the Police State..... (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 10:13:11 AM EST
    Be careful, in NYC who you think is a mugger may be a cop...think twice before defending yourself.  And realize you're on camera all day long in Manhattan.

    Besides all the little tyrannies, it's a great city.  Good luck!

    Parent

    Peter Hart focus groups R the best (none / 0) (#20)
    by catfish on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:21:42 PM EST
    he's good at this.

    Parent
    Blumenthal says he's good, so (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:27:57 PM EST
    I'm interested to watch.

    Parent
    How many retired military officers can (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:11:32 PM EST
    dance on the head of one pin?

    You want them when (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:13:39 PM EST
    military experience is the issue don't you think?

    Parent
    I suppose so. (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:14:50 PM EST
    Not in a Democratic primary though. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:16:36 PM EST
    His name was mud among the Deaniacs. No sir, not this simlacra of the left, flag officers and Dem priamry voters are like oil and water.

    Parent
    To me, this is the most interesting (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:14:18 PM EST
    issue in politics today.  Sen. Obama opposes CA constitutional amendment prop. against same sex marriage:

    Calitics

    Not Surprising (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:17:31 PM EST
    But points scored.

    Parent
    Pts. scored in CA, but (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:18:57 PM EST
    what about in PA, MI, OH, and MO?

    Parent
    With the exception of PA... (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:20:46 PM EST
    ...they all have amendments prohibiting same-sex marriage.

     Dead in the water.

    Parent

    Surprising, but I guess much has (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:21:46 PM EST
    changed, and not just in CA, since late 2003.

    Parent
    In 2004... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:26:28 PM EST
    ...I was still in MI working on the Kerry campaign, and I didn't spend any time on Proposal 2 because, frankly, I knew it was going to pass and Kerry would be able to appoint judges who might kill those amendments in the future.

     The Democratic Party hasn't invested much of anything in fighting these amendments, and there were reports that President Clinton was suggesting Senator Kerry endorse them.  That was too much for the good senator, luckily.

     Gays are always tossed aside by the party when it matters.  So Obama is a very pleasant surprise, although as I said, it doesn't make a difference.

    Parent

    Obama is a pleasant surprise? (none / 0) (#102)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:30:48 PM EST
    And Hillary wouldn't have done more for gay rights?

    Hmmmmm.  Apparently, the gay community thought so.

    Parent

    Huh? Hillary can still do whatever she wants (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:39:11 PM EST
    to enact law for equal rights for gays.  I don't think the "gay community" is any more united than the rest of the Dem party.  Politicians say what they can get away with to get votes.  Doesn't mean Obama or Hillary will really come through on gay rights.  Bill Clinton said he'd work for equality, then caved on DODT and DOMA.  

    If Hillary is going to go back to the Senate I look forward to seeing what she proposes in terms of equal rights for gays.  

    Parent

    This version of events: (none / 0) (#112)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:45:51 PM EST
    Bill Clinton said he'd work for equality, then caved on DODT and DOMA.

    has been discussed here on several threads.

    I don't think you have it quite right.

    Parent

    Bill Clinton reached out to gays, (none / 0) (#119)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:57:01 PM EST
    especially while running for his second term.  Then he turned around and signed DOMA.  He could have vetoed it.  He should have.  It's inappropriate and unconstitutional.  And mean to boot.  

    TalkLeft may have discussed it, but that doesn't change the fact that Bill Clinton did not do what he should have done w.r.t. gay rights.  He allowed the right wing to define the conversation, and our party has let the GOP bludgeon our candidates with the issue ever since.  Giving in on DOMA did not put Dems in a position of power.  It did not get the GOP to ease up on the issue.  Instead, gay rights have been used against us over and over, and in fact we may have problems in CA this year again because of a statewide initiative attacking gays.  So where did it get us to cave on DOMA?  

    When we stand up for equality and establish at the federal level that gay citizens have the same rights as heterosexuals, the state problems will go the way of miscegeny laws.  Some states will cling to their hatred and punishment of gays until they're taken down in the courts, other states will be more enlightened and respect the Constitution and hopefully more gays will move to those states.


    Parent

    It wasn't going to (none / 0) (#125)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:07:57 PM EST
    go over if it was forced on the ignorant.

    When was Matthew Shepard killed?  1998.

    Things have changed a lot since then.

    Don't blame Clinton.  He did more for AIDS than the Worst President Ever even thought about for 30 seconds.

    AIDs has become a big problem again, according to an article I read just the other day.

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:40:48 PM EST
    America's gay mecca, SF, went for Obama.  Kind of hard to know what the gay community wanted.  A quarter of them voted for Bush in 04.  

     This is actually a pleasant surprise, one we haven't seen from a nominee before...ever.  You just want to slam Obama to slam Obama.  Do you even care about whether he supports gay rights or not? No, you don't, you show it with every post.

     I don't know what Senator Clinton or Senator Obama has done for gay rights.  Not much.  He's had about four years in the senate to do something, she's had about eight.  So...any other fights you want to rehash? Primary wasn't enough?
     

    Parent

    25% of gays voted for Bush? (none / 0) (#111)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:44:55 PM EST
    Oh. My G-d!

    Ok, they must have been almost all gay men, not the lesbians.  Please, tell me a quarter of America's lesbians didn't vote for Bush.  

    Parent

    Of course, they did. (none / 0) (#113)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:48:28 PM EST
    There are a lot of gays whose main concern is money.  It's not surprising that they would favor a republican administration that catered to the top of the scale.

    They're apprently not interested in the other issues as much.

    Parent

    I know... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:55:41 PM EST
    ...quite a few gay men who are Republicans, including veterans.

     And there are plenty of lesbian Republicans...see, for example, the VP's daughter.

     I've had plenty of arguments with these guys, but I've given up.  One of them is middle management for GM, had three gay brothers and votes for Republicans at every chance.  

     That's why I admire African American voters.  They know tokenism and evil when they see it.  Gay voters, not so much.

    Parent

    After (none / 0) (#121)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:00:51 PM EST
    McClurkin?

    It was good, however, that Obama opposes Proposition 8, although (from MyDD):

    While Barack's statement is strong, it does, of course, stop short of expressing support of actual marriage equality. The day when the Democratic Party nominee can stand up for same sex marriage is probably not far down the road, but we don't happen to be there quite yet.

    You'll get there.  But you would have with Hillary, too.

    If he effs it up, he could set everyone back even more.

    Very worrisome.

    Parent

    McClurkin and his ilk really should be (none / 0) (#126)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:11:08 PM EST
    at the table, but not a table with nice treats on it.  McClurkin is wrong, but it's much better to be talking to him than ignoring him.  

    Now, with Hillary gay marriage, she actually to the same position as Obama.  Civil unions OK, marriage really just for straight folks.  

    I have a feeling she would have done what Bill did.  Cater to gays for their votes, but not deliver.  But who knows, maybe with this many people supporting her left leaning ways in the primary, maybe she'll have a change of heart and propose something in the Senate.  I know I will be encouraging her to do so.


    Parent

    No Loss (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    No deviation from his position.  In 2006 he opposed a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.

    Parent
    Seems quite a bit more forthright than (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:24:55 PM EST
    what we have seen lately from Sen. Obama.  Courageous, even.  But will he stay with this position in face of criticism from the religious right, McCain, Bush, etc.?

    Parent
    Yes and no. (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:32:28 PM EST
    And some uhhhhhs.

    So I fear, but for the sake of my gay friends, I do hope that Obama is ready on day whatever for this one.  Because it will come.

    Parent

    Different, though (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:29:39 PM EST
    He opposed a federal constitutional amendment in 2006.  He has said that he supports a state by state approach.  So in a way this is a little more encouraging.  

     This was particularly encouraging:

    Finally, I want to congratulate all of you who have shown your love for each other by getting married these last few weeks.

     Haven't heard that from a nominee before.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:38:38 PM EST
    Opposing a federal amendment is kind of the easy part.  This is a gutsier move than that, if only incrementally.

    Parent
    That's always (none / 0) (#24)
    by indy in sc on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:23:07 PM EST
    the catch for Dems running for national office.  Pro-gay rights helps with some demographics and hurts with others.  I'm glad he made his stance on this clear (even if only to a gay rights group).

    BTW, thanks for the link.

    Parent

    He may be against a (none / 0) (#136)
    by zfran on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 07:12:47 AM EST
    Constitutional amendment, but he is for civil unions not gay marriage.Obama and gay marriage  

    Parent
    Very happy (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:19:35 PM EST
    Won't make a bit of a difference, though.

    Parent
    Equal rights for gays should have been resolved (none / 0) (#42)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:34:04 PM EST
    during the Clinton administration.  Eventually America will have to come to terms with the issue, and the longer it takes, the more it'll be used as a wedge issue.  But like slavery and miscegeny, it takes the majority to stand up for the minority.  Slaves couldn't have ended slavery without whites finally taking a stand, and the same goes for ending state bans on interracial marriage.  

    Until our party does what's right and establishes equality at the federal level, gay rights will be a wedge issue used against Democrats.


    Parent

    Clinton never had much of a chance (none / 0) (#47)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:39:13 PM EST
    First, Dixiecrats torpedoed him on this issue in his first year.  Second, he was so plagued by his own sex scandals that touching gay rights would have been impossible.

     Third, I think he really is opposed to same-sex marriage.  He didn't lose any sleep over DOMA. It was never much of a priority for him.  He was a Southern Democrat and he certainly helped by seeking out gay voters and addressing them and giving them a role in his administration, but he'd fight the right over many things, but seldom gay rights.

    Parent

    Agreed (none / 0) (#55)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:44:48 PM EST
    Gay rights is one of those areas where leadership from the public is what's needed.  Elected Democrats who stick out their necks get chopped.  

    When the average run of the mill straight American is ready to accept gay equality, it'll no longer work as a wedge issue.  Which means those Dems who are neutral on the issue need to step up to the plate and start talking to anti-gay colleagues, friends and relatives.

    Parent

    Frankly... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:51:47 PM EST
    ...it is happening without the help of the Democrats.  

     That's one of the reasons I don't go out of my way to attack the Log Cabin Republicans.  I strongly disagree with them, but the Republican Party needs to be changed on this issue as well.

     One of the things I liked about Kerry was that he was actually one of the most pro-gay Democrats out there.  He retreated a bit, but he was one of 14 senators to vote against DOMA.  

     Senator Obama's letter is a bit surprising.  A welcome surprise.


    Parent

    This is spot on (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:06:01 PM EST
    re Log Cabin Repubs.  And there is a logic to it, but still -- the Dems have not been leaders on it.  

    Dems just are not good on gender issues, period.

    Parent

    oh what ? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:57:12 PM EST
    The gay civil war? phnar.

    Parent
    Sorry, what are you asking? (none / 0) (#73)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:02:20 PM EST
    Gay equality will eventually happen in this country.  Gays will continue to fight for their rights, and the right wing will use it as a wedge issue.

    What straight American does what's right, it's no longer a wedge issue to be used against Dem leaders.  We need to fix this.  The sooner the better, in my mind.

    Parent

    Well, Hawaii is one place where Dems still (none / 0) (#72)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:59:47 PM EST
    cave on gay rights.  Look what happened last spring (07) on civil unions.  There were hundreds of people testifying, some even pleading HI legislators for equal rights for their children, all to no avail.  Rep Tommy Waters just tabled the issue so committee members wouldn't be subjected to removal by the powerful Catholic Church.

    Parent
    It's always going to be a balancing act (none / 0) (#87)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:14:39 PM EST
    trying to make major social change, deciding what to do and when.  But gay rights are a no-brainer because our side gets dinged on it anyway.  There's an awful video of Hillary Clinton saying "gay" over and over.  It's made from clips from different speeches, but the effect is that she sounds flippant or even silly and the video feeds the anti-gay crowd that believes that liberals are destroying the real America.

    Problem is, gays are citizens, pay taxes, have kids, and are probably genetically based in their orientation.  The Constitution guarantees them equality.  

    The question is, how many elections are we going to lose because we allow the right wing to define the discussion again?

    Federal level equality is needed, and to heck with the states that ban gay marriage.  Gay's will take their money and move elsewhere.


    Parent

    Clem Attlee... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:15:03 PM EST
    ...avoided Churchill's POW  bio in South Africa and concentrated on his retrogressive domestic policies.

    Clem was a WW1 veteran who had landed on Gallipoli so he had every reason to go after the Churchill of WW1 who had designed the Galipolli landings.

    Clem also ran the UK during ww2 as the chief domestic administrator of the state.

    Clem had a bio the length of your arm and he instituted the NHS.

    Obama does not of course.  Clark does have that biography.  so he can get away with these sorts of attacks on McCain. Imagine if Clark was our candidate?

    Don't make me cry. (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:16:43 PM EST
    [And I'm not even a Clark "fan-boy."

    Parent
    Sorry to make you cry. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:18:59 PM EST
    I just don't see any reason to hold back on describing what I want to see leading my party and political philosophy.

    Parent
    I'm a Clark fan-girl (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:26:52 PM EST
    I would have loved to see him run.

    I think the Dems trying to ignore the war and make this a domestic issue election is just wrong, on all levels. Clark brings the expertise to get the best result in the middle east.  I don't know what that looks like right now, but I trust that he does. I think he would have been Clinton's' VP.

    Parent

    It seems so simple. Withdraw as soon as (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:29:30 PM EST
    possible and as much as possible, given the situation, from Iraq; save billions of dollars; rescue those sub-prime mortage defaulters, create jobs, work on improving the environment, job retraining, health care, and on and on.  Heck, help fill those gas tanks also.

    Parent
    well no (none / 0) (#58)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:46:02 PM EST
    The Dems are obsessed by the war. That's the problem. When Labour deafeated Churchill's Tories the war (which was still hot) was essentially ignored.  A Land Fit For heroes was the selling point and Atlee being an ex-Major in the army and WW1 veteran was able to usher in the National Health Service and get out of the Empire.

    NOT HAPPENING THIS YEAR!  Or anytime in the next 20 years.

    Parent

    With all today's news (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:29:02 PM EST
    Chris Matthews is slamming Hillary and Wolfson for not doing a Vogue interview....last December.

    Ha. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:30:44 PM EST
    After listening to the whole show (none / 0) (#98)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:26:01 PM EST
    I'm sure it was recorded yesterday.  Lynn Sweet was on, an d I didn't hear her say anything about anything that happened in the last two days.  That is not like her at all.

    Parent
    In the meantime KO tells BO (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Lahdee on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:06:12 PM EST
    to suck it up on FISA cause there may be civil liability relief but not criminal,
    the path for criminal prosecution of the telecoms and the government officials with whom they conspired, is wide open.
    He should do something, says KO.

    Quick distract dubya with a pretzel so he doesn't pardon everybody.

    It's just pathetic, you know? (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Pol C on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:13:19 PM EST
    Olbermann is so damn determined to spin this indefensible behavior from Obama that he's chucked his brain out the window.

    Hello, Keith. Do you remember a certain power of the President to issue pardons? Do you realize that pardons can be issued preemptively? Do you have any doubt of Bush's willingness to issue pardons on the telecoms' behalf? Do you realize what a rationalizing nitwit you're being on this matter?


    Parent

    Absurd is what it is (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
    Pardon or no pardon, there is zero chance that Obama will prosecute the telecom companies criminally.  The very suggestion is nuts.  Bringing up the idea that he just might do it is simply a way of persuading the gullible people to drop the issue until after the election.

    Parent
    Totally agree (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:28:35 PM EST
    He will never do anything he would see as "divisive". KO and his fans are kidding themselves if they think that is in the cards.

    Parent
    Saving Face is ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by santarita on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:35:31 PM EST
    What Olbermann is doing here.  Pres. Post-Partisan Obama wouldn't pursue the Telecoms criminally.

    Parent
    I didn't really have a chance to respond to this (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:07:36 PM EST
    point in the last thread, but the claim by Josh Marshall that

    What his campaign should not be doing is lending its imprimatur to the proposition that because McCain saw combat in Vietnam and suffered as a POW that he has the judgment to be an effective president.

    is just more of his typical brainless "analysis" and bloviating.

    Look, I should think that anyone with a lick of common sense realizes that the McCain camp is hardly asserting that "because McCain saw combat in Vietnam and suffered as a POW that he has the judgment to be an effective president".

    This, you see, for the logically challenged, is what is called a straw man argument.

    Isn't it about a thousand times more plausible that what is really being implied by the McCain camp is that seeing combat and suffering as a POW is one of a complex of facts about McCain that suggests he would be an effective CIC?

    The point is, yes, McCain put his life on the line for his country in combat, and suffered as a POW, showing some real heroism in the process. But that is not all there is to John McCain's background that prepares him for the role of CiC. He also assumed a command position in the Navy. He also has been involved for decades in the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Senate. Perhaps none of these by themselves make for a highly qualified CiC, but putting them altogether, yes, that would make him nearly uniquely qualified as politicians go (and who is going to be President but a politician?) to undertake that role.

    I'm really kind of sick of the simplistic, exquisitely biased, "analysis" we get of these issues, particularly from hacks like Josh Marshall. The issue really isn't all that complicated. I don't know why so many left wing bloggers can't seem to wrap their heads around the concepts.

    As opposed to Obama explicitly stating (none / 0) (#96)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:22:52 PM EST
    that going to elementary school in Indonesia made him MORE qualified than the other Presidential candidates to formulate proper judgments about foreign policy. Yeah, right.
    That's the single most ludicrous claim of a Presidential candidate in my lifetime.

    Parent
    Strawman (none / 0) (#103)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:32:27 PM EST
    Obama didn't say it was his elementary school experience that makes him more qualified.  But clearly his unique upbringing gives him a different perspective than a white man who was raised reasonably wealthy in this country with most of their childhood experiences being safe and secure and with very little exposure to other cultures.

    Personally, I think America needs to move past the white male perspective our presidents have either exhibited or reinforced.  

    Parent

    Excuse me? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:41:31 PM EST
    Do you want the actual quote?  Are you really going to dig yourself deeper in this hole?

    Parent
    Um, actually he did. (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:43:03 PM EST
    Well, yeh, he didn't specifically say (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:54:10 PM EST
    which grades in elementary school so prepared him to be king of the world.  But a childhood in another country -- yeh, Obama did say that qualified him to handle foreign relations.

    And, of course, he is as much a white as he is of color, and he was raised reasonably wealthy with a country-club family -- oil-company exec stepfather when Obama was four, then off to business owner grandfather and bank vice-president grandmother when he was ten.  And he went to private prep schools overseas -- although, yes, there is the downside that it provided little exposure to the other cultures here.

    Really, have you even researched his childhood?  Where are you getting your fairy tale?

    Parent

    You're funny. No, it's not a fairy tale (none / 0) (#122)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:04:48 PM EST
    I really do think that being immersed in other cultures is more life changing than just being exposed to other people.  I actually know quite a few people who've gone to Punahou (his high school) and a few teachers there, and I have some interesting theories on how he would have been affected differently than, say, a white kid going to that school.  And I know from personal experience that being half black really means you're black in this country.  And it's an interesting twist to be black raised by a white family.  

    But back to his life in Indonesia, the elementary school is not what I'd say was important.  Having a mother who traipsed around the world is very defining.  


    Parent

    Ha. You're humorous (none / 0) (#124)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:07:12 PM EST
    and remain remarkably uninformed about his childhood, his time with his mother, etc.  Your problem, your mythology, you'll learn.

    Parent
    I'm sorry, what am I missing here (none / 0) (#129)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:39:06 PM EST
    He lived in Indonesia with his mother.  He lived in Hawaii with his grandparents.  He didn't grow up black, and he would have been accepted as hapa in high school.

    I think his mother shaped who he is because of who she was and what she believed in. She had a very unconventional life and the parts of it that Barack shared were life molding.  Separating from him surely impacted him as well, when he chose to live back in Hawaii.  I think he had to figure out what it meant to be a black man, and that's why he immersed himself in the communities he joined in Chicago.  But mostly, I think it's his mother who gave him his true sense of who he is in the world.


    Parent

    I'm not at all sure Obama has a true sense of (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:54:50 PM EST
    who he is in the world.  He lived in Indonesia from the age of 6 until he was 10, when he went to live with his grandparents. His mother reappeared in 1972, then went back to Indonesia with her daughter in 1977.

    I think she probably did the best she could - she was a very young mother, only 18 when Obama was born - but look at Obama's life: abandoned by his father when he was 2, a stepfather for a brief 4 years before he moved back to Hawaii.  Obama never speaks of him, so I can only assume he was not part of Barack's life after Obama left Indonesia.  His mother in and out of his life - going back to school  and then returning to Indonesia in 1977.

    His life may not have been one of poverty, but money doesn't make up for the absence of a father and a mother who is in and out when it suits her.

    I give him credit for making something of himself, but I see his need to be liked by everyone as the by-product of being shuffled hither and yon from the time he was a baby; that stuff leaves scars.

    Parent

    POW McCain will be invested in "winning" (none / 0) (#99)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:27:08 PM EST
    an unwinnable war in Iraq.  As a veteran, I have to say that McCain's POW experience is exactly what makes me think he won't be an effective president.

    We lost the war he suffered in, and I don't trust him to get us out of the Iraq war, especially given his experiences in Vietnam.

    Right now, the surge appears to be working because we're paying the bad guys not to kill people until after the November elections.  That's right, we are paying the enemy, and the timeline for their "agreement" expires next November.  We're mired in a conflict/civil war in Iraq that we have no chance to win.  Centuries of feuds and civil/religious hatred are not going to roll over into a functioning democracy.  And I don't want to pay to keep troops there forcing the issue for the next few generations.  McCain "envisions" us getting troops out, but the right wing is completely tied to Blackwater-type solutions that even bringing troops home is simply going to mean we'll be paying even more for mercenaries to do the job instead.  


    Parent

    Clark statement.. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by trillian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:17:06 PM EST
       
    Update at 8 p.m. ET: Clark has now issued a statement defending his remarks and explaining their context. Here's what he said:

        There are many important issues in this presidential election, clearly one of the most important issues is national security and keeping the American people safe. In my opinion, protecting the American people is the most important duty of our next President. I have made comments in the past about John McCain's service and I want to reiterate them in order be crystal clear. As I have said before I honor John McCain's service as a prisoner of war and a Vietnam Veteran. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. I would never dishonor the service of someone who chose to wear the uniform for our nation.

        John McCain is running his campaign on his experience and how his experience would benefit him and our nation as President. That experience shows courage and commitment to our country - but it doesn't include executive experience wrestling with national policy or go-to-war decisions. And in this area his judgment has been flawed - he not only supported going into a war we didn't have to fight in Iraq, but has time and again undervalued other, non-military elements of national power that must be used effectively to protect America. But as an American and former military officer I will not back down if I believe someone doesn't have sound judgment when it comes to our nation's most critical issues.

    usatoday.com

    emphasis mine

    What's interesting is (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:21:06 PM EST
    unlike other entries in the "I'd like to revise and extend my remarks" category, Clark isn't actually saying anything different here from what he's already said.

    Bully for him, I say.  Now we're on to the next stage, which is the part where the GOP starts calling on random Democrats to denounce Clark.  I wonder who the first prominent Dem will be to call on Clark to apologize?

    Parent

    I hope Hillary stays out. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:36:09 PM EST
    Heck, I hope all Democrats stay out of it!  Please, let them all just keep quiet.  Otherwise, it's just a sign that Right can keep beating up the Dem nominee on National Security for the next four months.

    Parent
    And thus, does the Obama camp (none / 0) (#118)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:55:49 PM EST
    now have to explain why what Clark said, and says again, must be renounced?

    Parent
    Clark, Morning Joe, June 13, 2008 (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:25:10 PM EST
    Here's the YouTube (link):

    In my opinion, Gen. Clark's statements are an intentional process to slam dunk a potential issue very early in the campaign--before the convention.  It appears as if the disinformation hacks are so lazy & inert that the general had to repeat his statements several times in different venues before the lame stream media actually saw that there was conflict, drama, & newsy red meat in the story.

    Scheiffer rose to Gen. Clark's bait like a trout to a well-tied fly.

    If this is played right, the McCain campaign will choose to leave the military career arguments off the agenda.

    I'm a veteran.  In my opinion there is very little about military service that stands as in indicator of success in government, business, or social service & humanitarian work.  As with all other people, some veterans are excellent in what they do; others, maybe not so much.

    For some reason, the political parties have turned to mid-level naval officers as presidents & candidates since 1960.  Kennedy, L. Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter & Bush held the office.  Kerry & McCain became nominees & Perot did a 3rd party gig.

    In my most hateful moments, it seems very clear that George W. Bush, 43rd President, was a fully trained jet fighter pilot and that experience did not keep him from being the least qualified president in the nation's 232 year history & clearly the worst commander-in-chief.  [Bush 41 flew reciprocating engine propeller aircraft & fared marginally better than #1 son, although he did bail-out twice.]

    So, logically, it seems most wise to avoid yet another opportunity to elect a naval officer & there may be powerful signs, omens, & portents that former fighter pilots are not a good idea in the Oval Office, except as honored guests.
    snark

    Another... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:08:40 PM EST
    ...g0dd@mned fight over f*ing military service and boomer hand wringing over Vietnam.  

     McCain's "truth squad" is Orwellian.  The Obama campaign should have just said nothing in response.  

     I am kind of surprised that this is headline news now.  He's been hitting at McCain for weeks.  What changed?

     I was very much hoping he would be the VP pick.  That might be impossible now.

    That's Good! (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by JimWash08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:15:17 PM EST
    I really like Gen. Clarke and don't want to see him get tangled and messed up in Obama's web of ...

    This is just a speck of dust on his shoulders that he can easily brush off and move on, to associate with more noble Democrats, who shall remain unnamed.

    Go Gen. Clarke!

    Parent

    General Mark Clarke? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:17:14 PM EST
    Liberator of Rome June 5th 1944? lol.

    Parent
    Him too ;-) (none / 0) (#30)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:27:46 PM EST
    Clark should have been (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:21:05 PM EST
    the nominee this year.

    He just criuse missiled McCain, but Obama appears to be putting out the fires as quick as possible on the USS McCain.  "sorry sir, won't happen again!"

    Parent

    Why was Obama so rat-a-tat-tat (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:22:53 PM EST
    vs. Hillary Clinton and why is he so wimpy against McCain?

    Parent
    He did this same stuff with Hillary a lot ... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:28:24 PM EST
    let surrogates do the heavy lifting.

    Parent
    And deny it's in his handwriting? (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:33:49 PM EST
    Because (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:45:23 PM EST
    he has the fatal flaw that lots of our nominees have: they think that winning the Dem primary equals winning the election. Obama is simply repeating the behavior of Kerry and Dukakis here. Obama comes from the south side of Chicago where no one would vote for a Republican. He doesn't understand fighting Republicans.

    Parent
    Timing (none / 0) (#63)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:52:27 PM EST
    Five months out from the primaries, Obama was pretty chummy with Hillary too; remember the early debates?  He went hard negative only at the end of the campaign as needed to win.  The same is true for Hillary for that matter: the negative adds (3am, etc...) didn't start until she was decidedly behind in the elected delegate count.

    This is pretty typical for all campaigns.  Even Rove didn't go nasty until mid to late summer in 2004 (I think the first Swift Boat ad was in August).  I'm not completely sold that it's always a good idea to "keep the powder dry" (although in this particular case I don't see any other good options), but nonetheless this is pretty much in keeping with the Obama primary strategy too.

    Parent

    That Walmart comment was chummy? (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:55:35 PM EST
    No idea (none / 0) (#75)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:02:40 PM EST
    I don't even remember what you're talking about.  I'm talking about campaign strategy.  There is always something in any campaign for the opposing camp to get upset about (c.f. the subject of this very thread!), but most of that stuff (c.f. ditto) isn't intentional.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:05:17 PM EST
    I'm sure attacking Hillary's character with the "she'll say anything and do anything" theme just sorta slipped out.

    Parent
    That was the first Dem going negative (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:08:15 PM EST
    in the primary -- Obama in an early debate.  It is worth remembering, for the record, when we look back some months from now in the evaluation stage.

    Parent
    Details, details. (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:11:56 PM EST
    Oh who could forget (none / 0) (#93)
    by LatinoVoter on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:21:37 PM EST
    the chummy 1984 ad that launched the Obama campaign where Hillary played a starring role. Or the equally chummy comparisons to Nixon etc.

    Oh the early stages of the primary sure were chummy.

    Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

    Parent

    LMAO (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:43:22 PM EST
    Funny but true.

    Parent
    You can't say nothing (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:30:14 PM EST
    That was the Kerry response, and as a result the SBVfT issues grew and festered.  Saying nothing is just a license for the other side to keep repeating the same point.  Repetition breeds belief.

    So the Obama campaign had to pick a side: either fight the semantic argument about what Clark really meant (which never works: that just turns the headlines from "Clark hates babies" to "Does Clark hate babies?" and runs them for four or five more news days) or cut bait, agree with the McCain frame, and distance themselves from Clark.  Neither choice is good.

    It's just bad luck, really.  Clark got led into a trap by that question, and answered it using the worst possible phrasing.  At this point, we just need to take the hit, wait for McCain to say something dumb and scream like hell.

    Parent

    Noooo (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:37:26 PM EST
    You can do that. General Clark will not and I will not.

    He is on tv tonight and most of the day tomorrow.

    You better find yourself a new strategy.

    Parent

    You misread (none / 0) (#50)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:42:51 PM EST
    I was replying to a statement that the Obama campaign should have remained silent.  That doesn't work, for the reasons I cited.

    Clark is more than welcome to fight this as much as he wants, as far as I'm concerned.  Either he'll win (unlikely, IMHO, but not impossible) and swing the whole POW issue into a loser for the McCain campaign; he'll lose badly, thus validating the quick Obama denunciation; or (most likely) it will just turn into a big Clark vs. McCain flamefest, and therefore a sideshow to the actual election that doesn't involve Obama.

    Parent

    My apologies (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:44:02 PM EST
    I did misread your comment.

    Parent
    Completely agree. (none / 0) (#100)
    by thinkingfella on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:28:03 PM EST
    And as a big Clark fan, I hope he pulls out a win. But I think you're right, this is doomed to be a flamefest sideshow at best.

     

    Parent

    clark kicked Mccain in the teeth. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:47:37 PM EST
    WHACK!  Obama is busy apologizing.

    Parent
    Actually, no (none / 0) (#68)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:58:22 PM EST
    Clark didn't kick McCain in the teeth.  He simply replied to a question about whether McCain's POW experience makes him a good presidential candidate with "no".  The problem was that the phrasing he used (and for which he was prompted by the interviewer) was incendiary.

    You, being a good fighting liberal, interpret that incendiary phrasing as red meat, and a kick in the teeth to the McCain campaign.  Republicans interpret it the same way, as a direct insult.  And that's the problem: the undecided voters also see it as an insult, and insults are bad, and so this is a losing issue for Obama.

    The trick to offense in politics is doing it without being offensive.  This was offensive at first glance (even if it really wasn't, factually).  That's not a recoverable position.  Obama/Clark lose this round, sadly.

    Parent

    Not just Republicans. Talked to two vets (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:10:11 PM EST
    now who had voted for Obama.  They're not pleased by  what looks to them like Obama dissing two vets -- a POW and a General.

    Parent
    If you look at the whole interview with Clark (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:22:32 PM EST
    he dissected McCains military service bit by bit and showed how it did not necessarily make him ready to be commander in chief.  I'd say it was a kick in the teeth, right at McCain's supposed strength.  The short exchange with Schieffer was Schieffer's attempt to fight back with a ridiculous question, and Clark correctly slapped it down.

    We need more of that, not less. If we are going to run this race trying not to offend anyone, we might as well pack it in now.

    Parent

    Handwringing (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:37:29 PM EST
    over Vietnam?

    I guess you didn't read what he said in his "Patriotism" speech today.

    Yuk.

    Parent

    Actually... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:44:01 PM EST
    ...Vietnam was a small part of that speech.  And what he said I pretty much agreed with:

    In other words, the use of patriotism as a political sword or a political shield is as old as the Republic. Still, what is striking about today's patriotism debate is the degree to which it remains rooted in the culture wars of the 1960s - in arguments that go back forty years or more. In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day



    Parent
    No, Alec. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:46:52 PM EST
    It was the government and those people that supported it that were the biggest offenders when it came to honoring the vets.

    Just like the government now.

    Parent

    That isn't... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:59:31 PM EST
    ...and wasn't how many of the veterans saw it.  Denying the extremism of the left and right during the 60s and 70s is futile.

     What do they need, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission?  What is possibly offensive about his statements? Apart from what an SDS or YAF member would have to say about it?    

    Parent

    Evidence? We saw the links (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:13:59 PM EST
    in earlier threads to the evidence I've seen, of surveys of Viet vets, that don't support your statement.  And the surveys accord with what I heard from the many, many Viet vets I know -- that it was mainly the government that let them down (along with the VFW, the American Legion, etc.).

    If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd appreciate it.  This will come up in a course I'm teaching.  It always does -- and with this stuff today, looks like it definitely will be in the discourse, with so many students for Obama who will believe what he says.

    Parent

    Um... (none / 0) (#83)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:12:11 PM EST
    ...and wasn't how many of the veterans saw it.

    Someone posted this morning about the polling of vets who were asked how they were treated when they returned home.

    90% said they were treated well.  I don't know when the poll was taken, bt tat would seem to contradict you.

    I lived through it.  I hated the war, but the last thing I would have done is blame the troops.

    Parent

    We had an SDS group (none / 0) (#86)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:14:16 PM EST
    at our univeristy.  The president is now head of a PA univeristy, btw.

    Parent
    <I was in SDS, too> (none / 0) (#90)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:19:09 PM EST
    . . . and so were a lot of us in academe now.  Don't tell the regents and trustees, but remember when we said we would take over the campuses?

    We did.

    Parent

    Excellent.... (none / 0) (#94)
    by pie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:22:17 PM EST
    :- )

    Parent
    Robert Gibbs on Morning Joe? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dawn Davenport on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:11:29 PM EST
    I heard someone say Gibbs didn't do such a hot job when he appeared on the show today, but he didn't elaborate.

    Did anyone here watch it, or have a link for it?

    He was fine imo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:13:04 PM EST
    Anyone watching Wimbledon? (none / 0) (#25)
    by indy in sc on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:24:49 PM EST
    I am really hoping for a Safin/Federer semifinal!

    Just wondering. (none / 0) (#29)
    by halstoon on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:27:19 PM EST
    If this is an example of misogyny in politics, is this an example of misandry?

    Is it sexist to call Bush a ba$tard?

    Is this racist? Or ageist?

    If it was sexist when someone asked McCain how to beat the b!tch, then is it sexist to ask how we'll beat that ba$tard McCain?

    If it's racist to call Obama arrogant, is it ageist to call McCain confused?

    I just wanna know where we stand on PC issues around here.


    The insult "b*stard" is actually a (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:40:47 PM EST
    reflection on the character of the person's mother for not knowing or keeping the father around.

    Always the women...

    Parent

    Pretty much depends on whose post (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:30:22 PM EST
    you are commenting on.

    Parent
    Toilet Paper example is ... (none / 0) (#70)
    by santarita on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:59:20 PM EST
    scatological and not sexist.

    All of the examples are 'politically correct" depending on the environment that you are in (e.g. a sports bar) and the level of discourse that you are engaged in.  In short, none are particularly appropriate when one is participating in a serious discussion and expects  his or her participation to be taken seriously.  

    Parent

    Why would anyone bother (none / 0) (#134)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 05:30:18 AM EST
    replying to this or to you on this topic?

    You clearly couldn't care less what's sexist or offensive to women. You often make your contempt clear for these issues by trivializing them as "PC" - the ultimate putdown for this.

    Your goal is make nothing sexist and to allow anything offensive about women to stand. It could not be more obvious or boring.

    Parent

    It would seem the answer is you, Dr. (none / 0) (#138)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:02:30 PM EST
    You would bother to reply to me, and while you don't know me or my motives, you clearly are comfortable diagnosing me. But let me clear things up for you.

    I love women. I know that every woman I know is 10x as strong as me despite my ability to pick up a bigger box than they. I also know that my best friend--a woman--is every bit as smart as me. It is not women I have a problem with, by any means.

     What I have a problem with is women like you who wish to make everything a sexist issue, ignoring the fact that women have entered the public and political arena and thus must participate alongside--and under the same rules--as the men you so decry as misogynist.

     My personal theory is that we live in a selfish world, driven by the individual. In such a society, everything is essentially sexist, racist, or whatever -ist that represents that which is the Other. Boys are stinky; girls smell pretty. Boys like potty humor; girls have a more refined sense of humor; girls are made of sugar and spice; boys are made of slugs and snails; men are dumb jocks; women are voracious readers; men like to break stuff; women are nurturing; men don't worry about hygiene as much as women; men are fighting brutes; women are diplomats; men have limited vocabularies; women are wordsmiths; men are aggressive and pushy; women are compromising and accommodating; men swill beer; women sip their wine; the list could go on and on.

    You could do the same for whites and blacks. I watched a show on BET last night in which the idea of a 'hell date' was for a black man to be subjected to a woman who liked white men. Whites were portrayed as stuffy, judgmental, ignorant and assuming. White characters on black comedy shows are often portrayed as stuffed shirts with no substance. Black characters on white shows are thuggish or amoral.

    It all goes back to the story of the tower of Babel; we all speak our own language, incapable of truly understanding the Other. People like Chris Rock, Paula Poundstone, Ellen Degeneres, Whoopi Goldberg, Lewis Black, Dennis Leary, Dave Chappelle, Rosie O'Donnell, Tim Allen, Roseanne Barr, Rita Rudner, Eddie Murphy, Jim Carrey, Damon Wayans, Bob Saget, etc. have all made their livings based on this basic premise of exploiting the things that make us different. Men don't understand women, and vice versa.

    With women still making 85 cents on the dollar and men starting to lag way behind in education, I think we have more problems than someone calling Hillary Clinton a b!tch or making GWB look like a imbecile, which is a very typical characterization of Southern white males.

    We divide ourselves based on sex, race, geography, wealth, education, athleticism, religion, age, and any other demographic we can sufficiently identify the Other in.

    When you say something is offensive to women, you are really only talking about one woman, or one set of women--you, and those you align yourself with; 'women' are not a monolithic group that you can attribute all your opinions to. What you find offensive is defined as trivial and petty by the women around me (though not always). Where you wish to keep the focus on the victimization of women, I know lots of women who would rather celebrate the strength and accomplishments of those carrying 2 Y chromosomes. That's because in your world, if Hillary Clinton gets elected Senator, it's because women have won a victory; in a non-sexist environment, it is because the best candidate won. Your view will never let the world move on to a point where women truly earn what they get; it will always be b/c men are attempting to make up for history, or b/c women are fighting against it, and that's just sad.

    Parent

    does anyone (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:41:17 PM EST
    wanna get 100 POWs together and ask them to raise their hand if they think theyre ready to be president?

    Is that rude?  Is that an insensitive perspective to have on all this?

    I think we need to find some more Generals (none / 0) (#62)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:51:57 PM EST
    who think along the lines of Lt. Gen. Robert Gard (my emphasis):

    So I too honor John McCain. And, like General Clark, I acknowledge his sacrifice for his country. But being a prisoner of the Vietnamese and serving on the Senate Armed Services Committee does not automatically qualify one for the position of Commander-in-Chief -- understanding risks, gauging your opponents and being held accountable does. We must end this glib obeisance to sacrifice and ask deeper questions: is a man who sings "bomb, bomb, bomb ... bomb, bomb Iran" a man who understands risks? Is a man who says that we must keep our troops in Iraq until we achieve an ill-defined "victory" really know how to gauge America's opponents.

    and

    ...today President Bush signed the GI Bill --which Senator Barack Obama has unstintingly supported ...Good judgment?  

    John McCain opposed it.




    Parent
    Major General's (none / 0) (#65)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:55:05 PM EST
    Like Cromwell had. But not too many of them of course.

    Parent
    Sounds like Gilbert and Sullivan. (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:58:34 PM EST
    So is the teflon gone? (none / 0) (#91)
    by lilburro on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:20:36 PM EST
    I don't watch a lot of cable news or anything but the CJR article suggests this was broadly, a big deal.  This week/next week I'm sure Newsweek and Time will weigh in.

    I think Obama should be pushing the economy.  A man with good ideas that will help the American people will be patriotic by default.  Show people it is in their interest to vote for you, and they can and will.  Issues can trump identities.  As it is, Obama focusing on being patriotic only brings those questions to the fore.  

    I don't know much about Obama's campaign team.  They seem like image consultants to me.  I don't trust them to get earthy.  Too much top-down image control.  It won't work forever.

    I think we are in for four to eight years of (none / 0) (#97)
    by Teresa on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:25:03 PM EST
    speeches but little action. There's a speech for every occasion it seems.

    Parent
    Time to fire up the CJR (none / 0) (#106)
    by Lahdee on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:37:42 PM EST
    favicon again. The Campaign Desk was a valuable resource for media criticism from their inception in '04. I look forward to reading their work again this cycle.

    CJR disappointed in the primary season (none / 0) (#120)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:59:26 PM EST
    this time, in the cycle so far.  But perhaps it will recall its raison d'etre.

    Parent
    on my way home from work listening to NPR... (none / 0) (#114)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:48:41 PM EST
    they discussed the Clarke issue and the fact that Obama threw the Gen under the bus.  At the end of their report they also stated that John McCain has NEVER made the claim that his POW experience (on its own) makes him qualified to be Commander in Chief.

    So, where did all ofthis start up?  Why did Clarke even bring this up if it isn't a claim that McCain has ever made?

    Can anyone find any statement McCain has ever made claiming that flying in a plane and being shot down makes him qualified to be president?

    Here's 2 different takes on McCain & (none / 0) (#128)
    by wurman on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:36:51 PM EST
    his "story."

    First a campaign ad.  YouTube (link):

    Second, a good narrative with the entire theme all the way back to his 1st senate race.  "The POW Dodge," American Prospect (link):
    A short quotation-----

    As McCain's career proceeded, every key moment was marked by repetitions of the tale of his trials in Vietnam. He became a national figure when he gave a speech at the 1996 Republican convention, discussing his time as a POW. His 2000 presidential campaign aired ads highlighting his war record, and even sold posters of McCain from his time in Vietnam, pictured in his flight suit.

    [note bena: Bu$h xliii plagiarized the flightsuit gig for Mission Acccomplished Day--& an aircraft carrier,]
    Enjoy.

    Parent
    Donna Brazile's Unity Party Plan! (none / 0) (#115)
    by Oje on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:50:44 PM EST
    Brazile: Democrats' unity bodes ill for McCain

    Shorter Brazile: Let Hillary talk her donors and the old ladies who voter for her, and give Hillary an opportunity to use her real experience.... as First Lady. Bring Bill into the inner sanctum to plot strategy ("keep your enemies closer...") There are gender roles to uphold in the new Democratic party!


    Reading Brazile write that (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:04:51 PM EST
    this is "the dawn of a new and potentially glorious era for Hillary Clinton" just makes me want to say to Prima Donna, as she did to us:  There will be blood.

    You don't know when, you don't know where, Donna.  But you will pay for your part in this -- from the RBC last August, from the day in January when you declaimed that "fairy tale" was racist, and for every day since, right through the RBC meeting of May 31.  

    You will be made a mockery in the histories to come of this campaign, Donna.  There is no glorious era ahead for you.

    Parent

    Ugh, Donna Brazile (none / 0) (#130)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:42:54 PM EST
    My distaste for Donna Brazile was already at an all-time high. After reading that article I find I now hold her in utter contempt.

    Parent
    I don't like Brazile's tone (none / 0) (#131)
    by MyLeftMind on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:06:57 PM EST
    but I think Hillary supporters should come up with a hope list and expectations for Hillary.  Getting half the Dem votes is no little feat, and aside from Brazile's comments, this is a good time for Hillary to take advantage and create a new and glorious path outside of Bill's shadow, and separate from the presidency.

    Parent
    Ugh, again. She is a Senator (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:46:46 PM EST
    from New York, in her second term.  If you still see her in some shadow, have you checked your prescription?

    Parent
    Media darling? (none / 0) (#135)
    by glennmcgahee on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 06:06:17 AM EST
    So BTD, do you still think that Obama is the media darling that you once thought? Yea, he was as lng as Clinton was in it.Everybody gave them a free pass as long as they were knocking her. We all knew that as soon as he became the nominee, that would change and here it comes. I will say that at least the Clintons were ready to hit back at the media. Why do you think they didn't pander to them all this time. They've learned through the years that the MSM can't be trusted and they know who pulls the strings. Its too bad that Obama's supporters were praising them all this time for helping Obama defeat Hillary. Now comes the real test as the media attacks and the democrats cave.

    Very thoughtful answer. (none / 0) (#139)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:08:00 PM EST
    Thanks for that. I see your point.

    So under your definition the character (none / 0) (#140)
    by halstoon on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:10:32 PM EST
    Al Bundy would be a sexist anti-male character. Of course, every character on that show would be a sexist stereotype. Would they all be racist stereotypes of white trash as well?

    You are correct (none / 0) (#141)
    by Montague on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 10:08:33 PM EST
    The character of Al Bundy is playing on sexist stereotypes. That entire show was 100% offensive stereotypes of racism, sexism, and other -isms - which of course is what made it work.  So long as everyone is skewered and it's a work of parody or humor, we laugh at it.  

    Parent
    I appreciate the way you have engaged me. (none / 0) (#143)
    by halstoon on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:33:05 AM EST
    I'm sincerely grateful for your willingness to discuss the issue, and I do agree with much of what you say, as well.

     I would agree that we have not made it to a neutral society, and my attack on Molly was hyperbolic; I apologize for making an irrational comment.

     I watched Kathy Griffin's show last night. She was referring to herself as a $2 wh@re for 'the gays.' She and all the gays were tossing around the word b!tches and calling each other slut or whatever abrasive term they could come up with. As I watched the show, it struck me that I would not want to watch that show with my grandmother, but there was Griffin having her own mom on the show, giving her Kathy Griffin condoms and talking about old people having slutty tendencies.

    My theory on words like b!tch, ho, slut, and even the n-word and terms like white trash or cracker is that pop culture has--or will--rob them of their venom. When Kathy Griffin calls herself a b!tch or a ho just before calling a man the same name, it loses its poison. We've seen this happen already with the n-word in hip-hop.

     I also watched Hell's Kitchen last night. On the show, one guy called another guy a b!tch, and one girl called everybody else b!tches. B!tching is a verb in the vernacular. I understand feminisms general discomfort with the word due to its history, but I think we should accept and embrace the fact that the word is changing. Now that it is applied to men as well as women, it is a more universal term, and should be allowed to continue its move into obscurity. This happens with words all the time. If I took the time, I could research various etymologies that have changed, words that once were obscene that are now bland, and words that were once innocuous that now carry a sharp edge. The fact that we are living through a transitional phase presents us with an opportunity to expedite the progress between the sexes, and I think we should take advantage of it.

     Other than her quip about the boys ganging up on her in Iowa, I never heard Hillary play the victim, either, and even then she made light of it. I think she understands that as an individual she has crossed a threshhold where her eligibility for victimhood is greatly diminished. Will there always be morons like the 'iron my shirt' guys? Oh yeah. Should they get to be the focus of the election? Not in a million years.

     Obama should make it clear that not every criticism is code for racism; you are right about that. Much of what I believe about gender issues applies to race as well, especially when the idols of today's youth are just as likely to be black as white (Oprah, Tiger, Puffy, Venus, Serena, Jordan, Lebron, Denzel, LT, Barack, Powell, Rice, etc.). So I agree with you on that. Especially as a Southerner, I can tell you that many of us--men and women--are tired of living in an oppositional society, especially since it is the Southern white man--and yes, I am one--who is most demonized for the ills of prejudice in America.