McCauliffe: Absolutely No Concession Tonight

4:45 pm: Terry McCauliffe tells Wolf Blitzer Hillary absolutely will not drop out tonight.

He says he and Hillary are making superdelegate calls. She has more voters than any other candidate in presidential primary history. "We're still going."

Laugh of the segment: Going into a commercial break, Wolf says: "But could the superdelegates still sway her way? Come back and we'll ask our expert, Donna Brazile."

These threads are filling up fast. We need some topical music video suggestions. Ideas?

This is an open thread.

< Rumor of the Aftenoon: Hillary Says She's Open to VP Slot | Making History and Denying History >
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    I think it's pretty likely (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:55:22 PM EST
    that Obama will pass the threshold tonight. If not, he will only be a few away.

    the threshold doesn't cut it (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:48 PM EST
    unless she concedes or withdraws. It's a temporary number that could  change.

    We can tell her it matters to us. (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:16:51 PM EST
    You can write on her blog at HillaryClinton.com and send tips to her campaign at Tips@HillaryClinton.com or by clicking the top right link on HillaryHub.com

    We can tell her that it matters that she not concede, no matter what, before Denver, and give us a chance to try to change some supers in the meantime.

     I believe Obama is a house of cards and that he is using every trick to try to get her to quit before it shows.  If she doesn't quit till the votes are counted in Denver, I think she'll be president.  We need her too much not to make it happen.


    Technically, yes (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:58:36 PM EST
    But I don't think that's a distinction that will be meaningful for long.

    If we had a resonsible press it would be --- (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by nulee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:31:22 PM EST
    clearly it is meaningful to all the states that gave HRC resounding victories even after BO was self-coronated and press-coronated.

    Please keep pointing this out!! (none / 0) (#27)
    by mogal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:00:25 PM EST
    It is necessary to have far more of the (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:02:33 PM EST
    delegates than he has come from the PLEDGED delegate pool in order to declare an official win.

    He's almost 400 short on pledged delegates, and that's only if the number doesn't go back to 2209 by convention.

    The media is trying their level best to force this down our throats as though it is real.

    They are also trying to say Hillary has now said she's fine with the VP spot.

    I hold tight to what the democratic party rules of nomination are and they can skywrite this information. It still doesn't make it true.


    The long awaited flood of SDs... (none / 0) (#11)
    by sweetthings on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:57:06 PM EST
    Seems to be real this time.

    And they can flood right back (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by angie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:59:22 PM EST
    it ain't over til its over -- if Hillary drops out & concedes OR when the SDs actually vote at the convention in August. It really isn't that difficult to understand, and repeating disinformation doesn't change that fact.

    Like andgarden... (2.00 / 0) (#42)
    by sweetthings on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:24 PM EST
    I appreciate that you are technically correct, but I don't think that will be meaningful for much longer. This particular dance is coming to a close.

    There are always new ones.


    sweetthings (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:54:45 PM EST
    "There are always new ones."

    No there aren't always new ones.  Do you have any conception of how rare an opportunity this represented?

    Obama had a 15 year window of opportunity.  Hillary Clinton had this shot only.

    It will be many many years before either a woman or an AA candidate will emerge.

    To the nation's detriment, Obama opted out of acquiring the experience, temperament, knowledge and understanding needed for the top job.

    Had he remained in the Senate for at LEAST another term he would have gained experience and a record on which to be judged and with luck perhaps acquire the temperament, knowledge and possibly a better understanding of the nation. Obama has never broadened beyond his provincial Hyde Park world and is woefully short on all counts. He's simply not fit for the Oval Office. If he loses this election it will be a very long time before another AA has even a prayer at a chance.  His candidacy also squanders a chance for a superbly qualified woman ready on all points to be president.  It will be a very long time before someone of her quality gets a chance.


    Too bad (5.00 / 0) (#76)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:06 PM EST
    about the voter thing, tho, donchathink?

    He and his Media are trying to get away (none / 0) (#122)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:49:43 PM EST
    with using the Power of Suggestion. It's working for millions, and being deflected by millions more.

    He can say all he wants, doesn't make it true. For a victory during the primaries, the only valid count comes from the pledged delegates, and Obama is nearly 400 short, 500+ if they return all delegates to MI and FL as Hillary is continuing to fight for.


    Elton John - I'm still standin? (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by gmo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:55:43 PM EST
    Or is that too obvious?

    Link (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by gmo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
    Jon Ausman (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:55:53 PM EST
    Said he will throw his HALF VOTE Hillary's way! LINK: Admittedly, he thinks the nomination is essentially sewn up, but as we know, it isn't over until it's over!  If more Supers go Hillary's way, which they SHOULD, IMHO, she will be the next president of the US!

    And there is another SuperD considering his options: Ed Cote of Washington State.  His phone muber is: (360) 693-4191, and his email address is: coed@pacifier.com.  Call or write - whatever is most comfortable, just do it!

    That email address is funny.... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:57:37 PM EST
    ...I'm just saying.

    LOL (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:15:29 PM EST
    I know - I thought so, too!  I thought abt the kind of message he was sending with that one!  :-)

    Jerry McNerney is backpedaling (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:58:10 PM EST
    fast from being called an Obama super-delegate.  He may be winnable; email at mac809@earthlink.net.  Remind him that California went for Clinton. . . .

    I MIght Add... (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:50:55 PM EST
    He just sent me back a (brief) email that he had chosen to endorse her!  Wow - sure didn't expect THAT!!!  :-)

    please don't post phone numbers or (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:59:48 PM EST
    email addresses here please.

    SORRY, Jeralyn! (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:16:31 PM EST
    Is there an alternative way to get that information out there?

    Is it ok to post this site that will mail for you? (none / 0) (#109)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:33:46 PM EST
    A site to email congresscriters and see lists of Clinton or Obama or uncomitted supers who are in Congress.  The email forward is free or you could use it as a lisa.t and do your own research for an email address

    That is the California Page, oops.  but you can click over to any state, compose an email for each candidates's supers or send to selected few. I have been doing some individual contacts and thought I wuld try this to reach more spuers sooner.  T think we need, for our own emotional energy's sake, to act at something that feels like helping.
    J., if this is not cricket, what can we do to give people leads on who has committed and who has not and how to reach them.  Hillary supporters on all my favorice sites are screaming for a way to show the party the intensity of their feelings and what they think should happen now, before it is too late.

    How can we do this in the right way and in time to matter?  There are people who will help with lawsuits and people who want Texas opened up  and other caucus states looked at.  There are new party people and write-in people and people who are determined to stay with the party and give it back its values and its President against the current tide today.  We need some organizing tools and collecting spots.  Any ideas?


    LOL (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by JustJennifer on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:05 PM EST
    "Laugh of the segment: Going into a commercial break, Wolf says: "But could the superdelegates still sway her way? Come back and we'll ask our expert, Donna Brazile."

    That is hilarious.

    That is very funny (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:44 PM EST
    to those of us who have been watching Donna.

    Donna (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by laurie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:05:39 PM EST
    I believe that she fiddled the whole time sequence of caucuses and primaries. I saw an article the other day which examined very carefully the whole sequencing of the elections and which concluded that had there been a different series of States (eg not SC first etc) Hillary would have won by March. Wish I could find it again.
    This election has been so corrupt, and so preordained from the first, I now see the Dems with different eyes, and no longer trust them.

    Thanks Cloudy. (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:13 PM EST
    That particular performance of the song is a quasi-religious experience. Goose-bumps. Morrissey (sp) is beyond hot. I bookmarked it.

    sonny & cher (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Turkana on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:45 PM EST
    i got you, babe.

    I Guess... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:57 PM EST
    The Dixie Chicks, "I'm Not Ready To Make Nice" doesn't strike the proper tone?  That's the one that's been in MY head all day!

    Should be the anthem of (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:01:59 PM EST
    the PUMA Party.  It's certainly my personal anthem.

    Too bad the Chicks didn't come out for Hillary.  Would have made for some fantastic campaign stops.


    PUMP party theme (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:29 PM EST
    Wildcat - Ratatat


    this one is not a joke.  its hot.


    PUMA I mean (none / 0) (#89)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:47 PM EST
    My Thoughts... (none / 0) (#74)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:19:15 PM EST
    Exactly!  I kept hoping they would...

    How can I join the PUMA Party?!?!  I have done my homework, read up on it already, and am an informed voter!!  :-D  


    should I stay or should I go--the Clash (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by clbrune on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:57:56 PM EST
    I've always liked it.  If there is a policy against links, let me know, and sorry in advance:


    lol (none / 0) (#59)
    by jedimom on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    that is Hillyarious!

    Johnson again says will go with popular vote in SD (5.00 / 6) (#16)
    by Nettle on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:58:16 PM EST
    Seems the Argus Leader isn't real happy with those AP reports either.  

    Q: So, if your state goes for Hillary Clinton, you will change your support?

    A[Johnson]: Yes.

    Q: Is that hard to do?

    A: No, it isn't. particularly when I don't believe in superdelegates in the first place. The opinion of leaders should not override the will of the people. I will vote for whoever wins South Dakota. I'm doubtful that we'll come to a vote, it won't come to a vote unless we (take the nominating fight) to the convention.

    Q: The Associated Press is reporting that Sen. Obama has enough delegates, even without Montana and South Dakota, to win the nomination, by their count.

    A: It doesn't change my views. I will support either candidate. My view is that the people control my vote in the state of South Dakota and that's that.

    Q: Did you ever think in your wildest dreams that South Dakota would play a prominent role in the Democratic primary?

    A: It is rare for South Dakota to take such a role, and I wish South Dakotans well and hope they are enjoying this experience.

    Q: Why do you think Hillary Clinton is so popular in South Dakota?

    A: Hillary and Obama have not won yet. It's premature to guess.

    Q: So you're not buying the poll?

    A: No, I think that polls have often been wrong so wait and see.

    What the heck?  The Obama campaign isn't WAITING for anything!  West River SD and MT vote until 8:00 p. tonight, East River closes at 7.  They must figure this is going to get embarrassing since they started wanking at noon.  

    HRC had won 227 Districts to BHO 195 May 14 (none / 0) (#117)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:44:24 PM EST
    That is Congressional Districts. She won way more counties than he did, for local Supers to consider and then there are past govs and others to consider.  Since she won so many big states, I think that old "will of the people" meme the Obama folks used to try to pump up the pledged and diminish the supers would actually play better for her.  But the kicket is the 200,000 lead in the popular vote.  He can't catch that in any way without claiming the actual voters in Michigan really meant him when they voted and making up a number.  If he claims the uncommitted vote in Mi, and he does, he gets an extra 238,000 from a ballot he declined to stay on.

    Anyboody know an updated site for the list?  CNN Election Center site has every state and how many delegates by county but not by district.


    Calif Uncommitted Congresscritters (none / 0) (#119)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:45:53 PM EST
    Mike Honda
     Nancy Pelosi
     Pete Stark
     Susan Davis
     Bob Filner
     Lois Capps
     Sam Farr
     Jerry McNerney
     Bob Mulholland
     Art Torres
     Vernon R. Watkins
     Christine Pelosi
     John A. Perez
     Robert Rankin
     Carole Migden
     Keith Umemoto
     Steven Ybarra

    according to lobbydelegates.com


    Calif Obama Congresscritters need emails (none / 0) (#120)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:47:30 PM EST
     George Miller
     Barbara Lee
     Linda Sanchez
     Zoe Lofgren
     Adam Schiff
     Alexandra Gallardo-Rooker
     Eric Garcetti
     Anna Eshoo
     Norma J. Torres
     Xavier Becerra
     Steven K. Alari
     Jeremy Bernard
     Mary Ellen Early
     Dennis Cardoza
     Henry Waxman
     Jim Costa
     Howard Berman
     Crystal Strait
     Inola Henry
     Edward Espinoza
     William Quay Hays
     Lou Paulson

    Help them see the light today!


    Anybody want another state' s list? (none / 0) (#121)
    by itsadryheat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:48:24 PM EST
    Brazile: Krusty the Klown of after-school blovees (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:58:54 PM EST
    Aaaaagggghhh huh bits with Sideshow Wolfe never get tired.

    Cause they just keep repeatin'.

    Here's a link! (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by ap in avl on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:59:13 PM EST
    OMG, can't believe that was your first thought.  Mine too!!! And you posted while I was searching for this:


    blood sweat and tears (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:59:31 PM EST
    spinning wheels

    The Rumors are an Effort to Cut Off Money (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by datadriven on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:00:03 PM EST
    Each and everytime we hear one of these "it's all over rumors", someone in our household makes another donation to Hillary's campaign. Afterall, if Hillary doesn't win then we'd wind up maxing out the contribution to McCain this fall.

    Play (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Andy08 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:00:49 PM EST
    Fleetwood Mac 's theme of Bill 1992

    "Don't Stop thinking about tomorrow...."

    That would cheer me up...

    Love Fleetwood Mac (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:02:40 PM EST
    I'm thinking "Little Lies" might be overall more relevant. . .

    These Strange Times (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:07:24 PM EST
    All very good indeed !! (none / 0) (#75)
    by Andy08 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:21:25 PM EST
    Scissor Sisters: Take Your Mama... (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:03:10 PM EST
    ...just cause it always makes me happy.


    The bane of America... (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by citizen53 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:05 PM EST
    is the 24 hour news cycle and the need to fill it and manipulate events.

    A close second is the cell phone and viral marketing.

    It has made a dumb country even dumber and decision making much more faulty in terms of making progress in a crumbling world.

    THE MUSIC (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:07:19 PM EST
    should definitely be Dixie Chicks Not Ready to Play Nice.  :)

    Good choice (none / 0) (#54)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:08:40 PM EST
    Chicago Sun Times (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by miriam on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:09:17 PM EST
    Says Father Pfleger is suspended from church by Cardinal. Headline reads "removed" but the article is more definitive (surprise) and indicates Pfleger objects to the suspension. (I doubt the Cardinal cares.)

    Amen! (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by jedimom on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:39 PM EST
    well great news!! I have been emailing the Pope and the Archbishops in charge of disciplining Bishops who dont comply with Church rules. Liberation theology is heresy to the church and Pflegler has been an issue for a long tie but was bringing in a lot of money, a-hem...but the Pope spent 40 years fighting Liberation theology and I think there was a lot of blowback from the youtubes....

    When even the Catholic church (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:18:06 PM EST
    is offended by treatment of women, and I say this as one raised Catholic, that ought to be a sign that something is seriously amiss in the OFB.  Plus, they won't learn at all from this smackdown of Pfleger.

    Not Surprised (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:18:56 PM EST
    When your Cardinal tells you to shut up, it isn't wise to reply FU I'll do as I please.

    It is about time. I grew up attending catholic (5.00 / 0) (#73)
    by FLVoter on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:19:14 PM EST
    school and never missed weekly mass and on holy days. In all my years of catholic school and attending mass, I never heard sermons like the good father's. Funny, my church always stressed unity with all the people of the world, God's love and the power of forgiveness.

    Musical suggestion (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by hellskitchen on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:29 PM EST
    Twisted Sister - We're not gonna take it any more!

    That is more (none / 0) (#78)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:50 PM EST
    for the PUMA's.  Riverdaughter are you listening?

    Saw Elvis Costello recently in concert and I (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by FLVoter on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:15:06 PM EST
    suggest his song "Brilliant Mistake" which reflects my feeling concerning Election 2008.

    Costello: Tear off your OWN head! (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Ellie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:15:43 PM EST
    Rise up! It's a Doll Revolution!

    For Obama (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by bodhcatha on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:10 PM EST
    'One Trick Pony' by Paul Simon:

    He's a one-trick pony
    One trick is all that horse can do
    He does one trick only
    It's the principal source of his revenue....

    Although it's a shame to have Simon's eloquence wasted on such an empty suit.  Ugh.

    Well, (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by AmyinSC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:24:43 PM EST
    That's a BIG AMEN from me on that article.  I won't vote for McCain, but I sure won't vote for Obama.  And just for the record, I feel exactly like the writer in NYC - LONGtime Dem, highly educated, done anti-racism work for years, marched in I cannot even REMEMBER how many marches for civil rights, equal rights, etc., etc., and I REALLY resent being told I am a racist, uneducated, woman.  Just sayin'.  

    Oh - and I'm not very good at sitting down and shutting up, either!

    Two Songs and a question. (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by WelshWoman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:29:54 PM EST
    1st one re the superdelegates - You keep me hanging on the telephone - Blondie

    2nd one: Tubthumping by Chumbwamba. Specifically the lyrics:
    I get knocked down
    But I get up again
    Youre never going to
    Keep me down

    Now the Question, If Clinton wins SD and loses MT by a small margin, will she have the popular vote without including Michigan?

    Hillary as an Independent (5.00 / 0) (#94)
    by This from a broad on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:39:02 PM EST
    I hope tonight she announces that she will run as an independent.  Why not?  It's not a question of her splitting the democratic vote and giving the election to McBush.  Many republicans lack confidence in McCain and probably won't vote.  Hillary could take this in a three way fight.

    Given that (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    Rachel Maddow just reported that "Hillary has no leverage in the Democratic Party" anymore, why on earth would she NOT run as an independent.  It makes no sense for her to stay with the Democrats.

    Rachel Maddow WISHES (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by LibOne on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:19:34 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton has no standing in the Democratic Party. 50% of the voters say she has a significant standing.

    Maddow can kiss my arse (none / 0) (#106)
    by DJ on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:29:12 PM EST
    These people are crazy.  The millions of people who support Clinton have no influence in the party either?  Well buddy..win the white house without us.  

    Please, please, please no unity ticket.


    Losing My Religion (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by magisterludi on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:42:01 PM EST
    AND (it's a REM twofer) It's The End Of The World As We Know It.

    These songs reflect my feelings for the DNC.

    Man Smart, Women Are Smarter by Jimmy Cliff or Robert Palmer (i hated the Carpenters version) for Hillary, of course.

    Dolly Parton: Eagle When She Flies (5.00 / 0) (#97)
    by Lysis on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:58:16 PM EST
    She's been there, God knows, she's been there
    She has seen and done it all
    She's a woman, she know how to
    Dish it out or take it all

    A kaleidoscope of colors
    You can toss her around and round
    You can keep her in your vision
    But you'll never keep her down

    Donna - (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by lentinel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:05:56 PM EST
    I knew we were in trouble when Bill Clinton was called a racist for questioning Obama's none too solid credentials as a person against the war in Iraq - and Donna Brazile went for it. She looked all puffy and righteous. Ick.

    I've been listening to CNN today (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by Grace on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:30:15 PM EST
    I think I finally figured out what this "Change" is that Obama and the Democrat Party have been talking about....

    What they are talking about is setting Women's Rights back 40 years, back to the days when an unqualified man could get a job before a more qualified woman.  We'll just go back to the 1960s and 1970s and start all over again.  

    Yep!  That's "Change You Can Believe In!"

    This is not a Progressive stance.  It's an Unprogressive stance.  

    I'm really starting to think I need to switch political parties.    

    Maxine Waters switches to Obama (3.00 / 2) (#79)
    by KristenWinters on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:55 PM EST
    My suggestion for tonights theme song is the traditional Democratic favorite....


    that's hilarious (none / 0) (#138)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 08:26:05 PM EST
    i might do it soon.

    Most votes (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:03:26 PM EST
    She has more voters than any other candidate in presidential primary history

    I've been seeing a number of Clinton supporters assert this lately, without ever acknowledging that Clinton only has the most votes if you count in a way that's most favorable to Clinton (i.e. count Michigan results and assume nobody there would vote for Obama, ignore caucus states, etc). I understand that you want to advocate for your preferred candidate but it's getting tiresome to hear this spin presented as if it were fact.

    Regardless, even if I concede your point that Clinton won the popular vote, the difference is less than 1/10th of 1 percent of the total votes cast. For all intents and purposes, the popular vote was a draw regardless of how you count the votes. It's the delegates that matter, and it's been apparent for months now that Obama had an insurmountable delegate lead.

    Hmm (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:07:35 PM EST
    "Party unity... or quibbling over trivial details?  Unity... or quibbling??  Hmmmm... I think I'll go with quibbling!  God, I'm so smart to understand the minutiae of these irrelevant side issues better than those idiot Clintonistas.  Thank God we don't need any of their votes in November."

    Missed the point (none / 0) (#129)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:16:15 PM EST
    You seem more interested in just teeing off on my opinion, which is fine, but that's a rather gross misinterpretation of what I said.

    Full disclosure: I'm an ardent Obama supporter and I don't come here looking to fight or cause trouble, although I understand what I have to say is unpopular. Frankly, I'm just sick and tired of avoiding TalkLeft. This was one of my favorite blogs before this stupid primary season, and I found it increasingly difficult to read because I have a different candidate of choice. Just one of the fringe benefits of this ugly primary, I guess.

    I mean, if you're at all interested in what I have to say let's try to step back and look at what's been going on for the last few months. A lot of Clinton supporters rally around sites that champion Clinton. Plenty of Obama supporters do the same at Obama-leaning sites. Everyone becomes more and more strident in their opinions because, in part, they largely interact with people who agree with them. Everyone feels justified because they all believe in their candidate. Everyone believes their candidate has the best platform or is most likely to win or whatever. When people do venture out it frequently devolves into a vitriolic food fight. People tend to stop venturing out and opinions wind up going unchallenged, creating a self-reinforcing cycle of negativity.

    So, short story long, yes I am interested in unity. Yes I am interested in talking to Clinton supporters. I'm interested in hearing your legitimate gripes -- they are legion -- but I'd also like to at least find some common ground that maybe I don't have my head up my ass if I happen to disagree. I don't have any illusions that some anonymous guy like me is going to make some big difference but it's annoying as all hell to avoid or bicker with people who I agree with on 99% of everything else that's important to me. So humor me, if you will. Or just rate all my posts a 1 if it makes you feel better.


    Sooooo (none / 0) (#130)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:24:02 PM EST
    why not look for common ground, instead of immediately diving into food fights over trivia?

    trivial food fights (none / 0) (#134)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:45:16 PM EST
    I don't think the "won the popular vote" argument is trivia. I think it's central to Clinton's argument that she should be the nominee. I chose to comment on that particular point for a reason.

    And I think there are legitimate disagreements about who won the popular vote, simply because the vote is so close. As I said earlier, no matter how you count the votes, the difference is less than 1/10th of 1 percent of all the votes cast. This race is essentially a tie, yet because of the Byzantine rules governing who gets how many delegates, my candidate has a large lead that your candidate is hard pressed to overcome. I could yammer on at length about how I believe that happened but I'll spare you what is truly trivial.


    Heh (none / 0) (#136)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 07:06:19 PM EST
    Whether Clinton won by 1/10th of 1 percent or Obama won by 1/10th of 1 percent, when there is no single clear metric to judge by, is the very definition of trivia.

    All you can do with that kind of argument is go around and around in circles.


    traditional (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jedimom on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    well how did they count it last election? did they make assumptions about caucus votes based o exit polling the way they do know?? i dont think so
    however it has been done all the time, that is how it should be done now. I notice many rules bent or broken to the benefit of the Obama campaign and here is one in which it is suddenly a stretch to count the estimated number of caucus attendees and not make a number up, I am not sure why...

    Last time doesn't apply (none / 0) (#118)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:44:29 PM EST
    I don't think comparing this year's primary to 2004 is a very sound argument, simply because back in 2004 states weren't jockeying to move up their primary against DNC rules. Candidates didn't actively avoid Michigan or Florida. Each campaign was free to fully advocate for their candidate. This was not the case this time around.

    I understand that I'm voicing an unpopular opinion here and I can empathize with Clinton supporters who seem to feel the game has been stacked against her, but I also think Obama has a legitimate beef regarding Michigan. Everyone agreed to refrain from campaigning there. Obama, Edwards, Richardson and Biden all removed their names from the ballot. Kucinich tried to remove his name but wasn't able to. Only Clinton and Dodd chose to remain on the ballot. At the time, the Michigan primary was widely viewed as a non-event. Liberal blogs were calling for Democrats to cross party lines and vote for Romney. I mean, this was uncharted waters we were in, and it wasn't until after the Ohio and Texas primaries that the Clinton team started making noise that Michigan should be counted.

    I mean, you might not agree with my point, but surely people can acknowledge that a lot of Obama supporters had a legitimate gripe with the way the Clinton campaign attempted to change the rules after the fact. You might think that at the end of the day she was justified to act the way she did, but is it that unreasonable to argue that other people felt it broke the spirit of the rules?


    youre wrong and youre (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 08:23:52 PM EST
    blogclogging. Stop.

    Popular vote (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by laurie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:05 PM EST
    I love the way you exclude Michigan, people did actually go out and vote-I mean they actually used their legs to get to a polling station, stand in line and vote. That's 600,000 people there doing that, and their votes don't count now simply because Obama at the last moment swished his name off the list. Have you ever worked in a polling station? Have you ever counted votes? If you don't have your name on the ballot you can't be counted-its as simple as that. That's how democracy works. Their votes which they gave to Hillary were arbitrarily given to Obama, along with the uncommitted votes. Totally unbelievable. On some wierd basis of election polls.
    Absolutely unheard of.
    Since most of the caucuses were overrun with Obama supporters who yelled down Hillary's supporters, possibly Hillary should object that that was cheating and that their vote should be changed based on polls.
    And since we're mentioning it why not take a good look at Obama's figure of 650,000 for Illinois. I've heard that in Cook County even the dead have wings and come out to vote
    Hillary was denied TWO STATES on the basis of Donna Brasile's jerrymandering.
    And you split hairs.

    Hush up now gorillagogo (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by Burned on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:21:51 PM EST
    We're singing.

    Beautiful smackdown, Burned (none / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:32:21 PM EST
    and bless ya for it. :-)  I needed a laugh!

    heh (none / 0) (#132)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:30:58 PM EST
    This is an excellent argument ;)

    I should've known better than to start this in an open thread


    The mind is a terrible thing to waste (none / 0) (#127)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:10:26 PM EST
    The media has an agenda. Obama has an agenda. The DNC has an agenda. All self-serving, and all are disregarding the rules of the primary process, why they were written the way they were, how they've been gamed, and that the number needed this year is still not set in stone.

    This NEEDS to go to the convention. If it ends this way, there is no repairing the party.

    Understand, the people who have switched to independent are doing so because the PARTY no longer represents what they believe in.


    clinton should concede (1.00 / 3) (#60)
    by somewhereinnc on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:24 PM EST
    Maybe if Senator Clinton concedes tonight, Senator Obama might offer her the VP slot!

    [non reply reply] n/t (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Fabian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:26 PM EST
    How about some Frank Black? (none / 0) (#6)
    by dskinner3 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:56:39 PM EST
    "Los Angeles"
    It's not really about Los Angeles, but another world, much like the press and almost half of the Dem party seem to be living in.

    I Won't Back Down, by Tom Petty (none / 0) (#12)
    by cymro on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:57:33 PM EST
    Good one.. (none / 0) (#20)
    by gmo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:59:00 PM EST
    ...but I think it's been used in a thread before?

    tom petty (none / 0) (#135)
    by gorillagogo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:48:41 PM EST
    I was never a big Tom Petty fan until I saw him at Bonnaroo a few years back. I couldn't believe how tight their set was. Hands down one of the best performances I'd ever seen live

    or how about (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:00:42 PM EST
    How Can I Miss You if You Won't Go Away?
    Written by Leonard Linnehan & Louis Philip Perry

    Lang Lang (none / 0) (#31)
    by Gabriele Droz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:01:11 PM EST
    and his father playing a traditional Chinese piece called "two horses competing".  Phenomenal:


    Lang Lang. Don't remind me. (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:09:42 PM EST
    [I think he will be an excellent musician in about 10 years.]

    Frank Sinatra (none / 0) (#34)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:02:37 PM EST
    Wow got it (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:05:13 PM EST
    My guy, Brando singing Luck Be A Lady Tonight

    Wilson Phillips (none / 0) (#39)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:03:55 PM EST
    "Hold on for one more day" :)

    How about All the Way a golden oldie. (none / 0) (#41)
    by mogal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:19 PM EST

    segueing into (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:59 PM EST
    I Wouldn't Take Her To A Dawg Fight, Cause I'm Afraid She'd Win

    "You're still in my hopes" -- (none / 0) (#48)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:26 PM EST
    You're still in my hopes,
    You're still on my mind.
    And even though I manage on my own --
    My heart is low, my heart is so low,
    As only a woman's heart can be.

    From the title song in my favorite CD, Only a Woman's Heart.  Here 'tis, Jeralyn, sung by women of Ireland, where many women honor Clinton's work for them and their families -- and for the women and families of the world.

    Women's rights are human rights. -- Hillary Rodham Clinton

    tunes (none / 0) (#52)
    by jedimom on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:07:45 PM EST
    I suggest The Warrior by Scandal for Hillary
    suggestion from TM poster scrappy

    Glad you asked (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:07:48 PM EST
    I was looking this up even as you posted:

    I Am Woman

    I know it seems corny today, but it really meant something to me as a 14 yr old girl wondering what options I had in this world. Very apropos for Hillary, I think.

    Me too (none / 0) (#58)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:40 PM EST
    I linked to the video downthread.

    Don't Dream It's Over (none / 0) (#71)
    by ap in avl on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:18:37 PM EST
    by Crowded House.  

    "you know that they won't win"


    Maxine Waters just switched to Obama (none / 0) (#77)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:11 PM EST

    styx (none / 0) (#84)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:33 PM EST
    best of times or a little gospel, I shall not be moved or maybe Rain on the Scarecrow....

    Jumpin jive (none / 0) (#90)
    by laurie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:36:43 PM EST
    Cab Calloway and the Nicholas Brothers


    from Dinah to Donna (none / 0) (#92)
    by Molly Pitcher on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:43 PM EST
    My momma done told me
    When I was in pigtails
    My momma done told me, hon
    A man's gonna sweet-talk
    And give you the glad eye
    But when that sweet-talkin's done
    A man is a two-faced, a worrisome thing
    Who'll leave you to sing the blues in the night

    Hillary as an Independent (none / 0) (#93)
    by This from a broad on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:39:01 PM EST
    I hope tonight she announces that she will run as an independent.  Why not?  It's not a question of her splitting the democratic vote and giving the election to McBush.  Many republicans lack confidence in McCain and probably won't vote.  Hillary could take this in a three way fight.

    I would be in heaven (none / 0) (#114)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:41:19 PM EST
    if she ran as an Independent. She'd have the female vote, that's for sure. The ONLY demographics she would not have are the AAs and the so-called "creative class." She OWNS the others.

    Run as an INDIE Hillary!


    OT: Illnesses tied to raw tomatoes (none / 0) (#98)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:58:39 PM EST
    ATLANTA, Georgia (AP)  -- An outbreak of salmonella food poisoning first linked to uncooked tomatoes has now been reported in nine states, U.S. health officials said Tuesday.

    Lab tests have confirmed 40 illnesses in Texas and New Mexico as the same type of salmonella, right down to the genetic fingerprint.

    An investigation by Texas and New Mexico health authorities and the Indian Health Service tied those cases to uncooked large tomatoes.

    At least 17 people in Texas and New Mexico have been hospitalized. None have died, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    More info/states here:

    Claire McCaskill (none / 0) (#104)
    by bjorn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:24:40 PM EST
    Okay, bear with me, I hated her too.  But she just spent 5 minutes praising Hillary on CNN.  And when talking about VP thing she said Clinton and Obama should decide together...she went on and on about how great Clinton is...she has the unity bug now.  Frankly, it works on me...so keep it up.

    Claire McCaskill: (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:37:30 PM EST
    Bite me. S

    he can take her compliments and....well, you know the rest. She was one of THE WORST BO supporters. Now she wants to play nice? I'm not buying. NO THANK YOU.


    McCaskill. (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by AX10 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:43:57 PM EST
    and Arianna Huffington have no credibility when they try to make nice with Hillary and her supporters.  Seeing that they have vilified us, it is obvious that these overtones are superficial and horrid attempts to get us on board.  I am not buying it.

    I still hate McCaskill. (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by AX10 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:39:26 PM EST
    She called Bill Clinton a racist on Ed Schultz's radio show.  That was enough for me.

    I disagree, to be honest I think the (none / 0) (#110)
    by WelshWoman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:37:29 PM EST
    superdelegates haven't done their job. To be successful you have to make the tough calls, Obama needs more experience send him back to the senate for the next 6 years, make Clinton bring him into the Cabinet with two to go to build up his resume.

    Since March and specifically Wright, Obama has been struggling. In the UK we couldn't believe the US elected Bush for his 2nd term we were shocked. After following this years election I can see how it happen and I can see McCain being elected.

    Obama needs Clinton and most of his supporters know this, I don't think Clinton has anything to gain by being on his ticket.


    I sincerely hope Claire (none / 0) (#125)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:00:22 PM EST
    gets a chance to shake McCain's hand as he enters and she leaves next January.

    R.E.S.P.E.C.T. (none / 0) (#105)
    by befuddled on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:25:06 PM EST

    The Garden of Allah. (none / 0) (#115)
    by Radix on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:42:17 PM EST
    Goes well with politics. Link

    Trio (none / 0) (#123)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:54:18 PM EST
    Do U Wanna Partner? this week's song (none / 0) (#126)
    by nmlhats on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:09:50 PM EST


    In the hopes of a joint ticket...

    I suggest "Do U Wanna Partner?", the title track from last year's huge Bollywood hit "Partner".

    and (none / 0) (#128)
    by The Troubadour on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:13:47 PM EST
    I'm sure John McCain would prefer one tonight so he can begin courting Clinton's voters. Just don't tell them he wants to overturn Roe v. Wade.