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Why Must Obama Not Rock The Boat?

I normally find myself in almost total agreement with Digby but this post just seems wrong to me:

Under the system as it exists today, you can hardly be surprised that the first black Democratic nominee would be reluctant to break much more new ground than he already has. . . . I wish that he would use some of his rhetorical gifts to challenge conservative assumptions more and I'm hopeful that he will, as president, work to redefine the conventional wisdom. . . . [But] [w]e chose serious symbolic change that has deep cultural meaning over serious ideological change that has deep political meaning. . . . But nothing comes free and having a politically moderate president at a time when a more explicit progressivism might have gotten a boost is the price we pay. The Village will only tolerate so much change at one time. If we want real political change, it's time to change the Village.

Excuse me, this is a cop out. There is no reason, none, not to demand "serious ideological change that has deep political meaning." I do demand it. I reject Digby's premise here and I will not settle. Obama owes the country the change it desires. He should not be afraid to run on it and deliver it as President.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Goodness (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:32:16 PM EST
    Just the other day I was informed by Geekesque that referring to Obama's race in this context, as Digby does here, is the most fundamental sort of racism.

    Of course it is not racism (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:33:12 PM EST
    But it is wrong.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:37:21 PM EST
    There are perhaps certain types of radicalism that Obama arguably has to be more wary of becoming associated with, because of his race or background or whatever.

    But it's mostly a cop-out.  I mean, it's not like there's some standard trope involving the sort of radical black activist who opposes telecom immunity, for example.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:41:12 PM EST
    I mean, it's not like there's some standard trope involving the sort of radical black activist who opposes telecom immunity, for example.

    What do you mean?  Wasn't Huey Newton's big issue telecom immunity?

    /snarkage

    Parent

    you said trope. (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:13:22 PM EST
    freking awesome

    Parent
    Obama's (none / 0) (#44)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:37:38 PM EST
    hands being tied, imo, not because of his ethnicity, but either because he's beholden to or thinks like the Dems in Congress who are ever-so-scared to rock the Republican boat before November; well, what the most recent Hersh revelations point out is November may be too late.

    Again, as I said in a comment to another post the other day, why can't the Dems wrest control of the national conversation about national security.  If they want to do so subtley by continuing the weak/strong national security meme, let them point out that the war in Iraq does not make us more secure, neither does FISA, executive branch dominance of the formerly tripartite system, lack of air- and seaport security, weakened relationships around the world, and on and on. Time for a new blueprint for real national security.  Wes has many times begun laying this out. Why can't this be mapped out, and reiterated every time a Dem is before the media, etc.  I am reminded of the lines in the movie, "The American President," where the Dem incumbent President is taking a beating on the airwaves from the Republican candidate for President who is raising family values issues, & the President tells his staff that the public is lapping up the Republican themes. The character (Chief of Staff?) played by Michael J. Fox responds by pointing out that the public is listening to the Repub candidate because he is  the only one doing the talking.  So why can't we join the conversation, and take it over?  This conservative control of the conversation has been going on since the Contract with America.  The Contract should have long since expired and the nature of the conversation is overdue for a change (yea, one we can believe in/unite behind).    

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#131)
    by SamJohnson on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:22:15 AM EST
    Jesse Jackson Jr, has all but announced he is entitled to Obama's Senate seat. If he announces this before November, McCain wins. Take that to the bank, not that it will be worth anything. Some genius in his campaign thinks that there is so much hatred of Bush and the Republican Party that Obama is running as a moderate Republican at this point. The primary rave is over. The kids are inclined to eat salami or ice cream with salty snacks to rejuvenate, but we are all being fed baloney. If Obama tries to flip anything back at this point he will come across even worse than John Kerry. I'm already holding my nose but we all know it could get worse. We are obligated to express our beliefs and demand a response from both Presidential candidates. It's infuriating when the Democrat was using the progressive banner for show. Now he says he don't even know who we are. McCain can't remember where he is, so at least we have that going for us...

    Parent
    I think I should imagine (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:18:29 PM EST
    Geraldine Ferraro saying the same thing.

    Just to provide for myself a different perspective.


    Parent

    Did Digby just label Obama (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:28:27 PM EST
    an affirmative action aka "symbolic" candidate?

    Yikes, I thought that site was pro-Obama.  That's what his supporters say?  That has to be stopped by the Dems -- that is, if they do want to win.  I gotta wonder, when I see stuff like that.

    And well beyond winning or losing a presidential  campaign, of course -- since Obama still will get his paycheck from the public, either way -- such a line could do damage to many current and potential fine people working their butts off to get where they did -- and dealing with the affirmative action crap enough already.

    Parent

    Precisely what I was thinking (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:30:29 PM EST
    "Symbolic" candidate means affirmative action candidate to me.  Woah!!  And they called Geraldine and Bill racist??  So, to Digby being black is enough.  That is the change we have been waiting for?  What planet are these people from??  I thought the very essence of Obama was CHANGE!!  Is the "Change We Can Believe In" just the color black?  

    We are precariously close to waging another war, and the Obamaphiles think just being black is enough change for the POTUS?

    Can we please start over?  I want Hillary back.

    Parent

    Ugh (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:33:20 PM EST
    Der Kommisar (none / 0) (#65)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:12:38 PM EST
    can KMRIA.

    Parent
    So, (5.00 / 12) (#4)
    by tek on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:34:42 PM EST
    okay for a black man to be moderate, not acceptable for the first woman.  What a crock!  We had a totally great candidate but the "progressives" tore her down with the accusation that she was centrist and moderate--DLC--even though the leader of the DLC, Rahm Emanuel, totally supported Obama.  

    Now that Hillary's pushed out, it's just ducky for Obama to be not just moderate but conservative.  Democrats have lost their minds.  I guess the blogsters agree with John Kerry, they think Obama will be a good candidate because, well, he's a black man.

    If he uses the cautious strategy throughout (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:34:51 PM EST
    he will lose.

    He needs to present himself as a bold new leader with plans. Not just the guy that you teenage daughter thinks is sooo cool. That's especially true in places like Ohio and Pennsylvania (show me the beef land).

    Caution (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Lou Grinzo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:44:07 PM EST
    Your comment points out the number one fear I have with the GE--Obama will think this should be a cakewalk, given how dreadful the Republican brand is right now, and that the "real" test was the primary.  As a result he runs not just as a centrist, but is overly cautious in his tactics, and McCain edges him out by playing the "experienced maverick" shtick, which the press eats up with a spoon.


    Parent
    I want to shake him and say (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:47:09 PM EST
    "Barack, you AREN'T CAMPAIGNING HARD ENOUGH."

    He doesn't get a break now. If he tries to take one, he will lose.

    Parent

    It was said that obama appeared bored (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:55:06 PM EST
    with the campaign during the primaries...could this be a continuation?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:56:51 PM EST
    This is one of the things that aggravates me most (5.00 / 12) (#38)
    by davnee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:17:58 PM EST
    It's the hardest and most important job in the world.  At least frakkin' pretend that you are willing to bust your a$$ for it.  A woman in her 60's and now a man in his 70's are running circles around you in the effort department.  It's embarrassing.

    Parent
    The longer this goes on, the less afraid I am (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:37:53 PM EST
    of the Republicans.

    Parent
    possibly he will (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:22:37 PM EST
    have to go through a Hillary Clinton like "let go of the image control, and just go campaign" period.  Are his aides adverse to this?  I dunno.  They'd rather send him to Europe it seems.

    Parent
    McCain... (none / 0) (#26)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:46:22 PM EST
    ...has an unstable personality.  That is what I am watching out for as the campaign unfolds.  

     I had hoped for Romney myself...but they played it safe.

    Parent

    Fairly serious line you're using there (none / 0) (#77)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:30:09 PM EST
    and seems a bit out of line for Talk Left.

    Parent
    huh? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:35:45 PM EST
    I don't understand what you mean.

    Parent
    Well, if you were said to have an unstable (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:52:45 PM EST
    personality, you would be lucky to get a job.  And might end up dragged in for a lot of police lineups.  Do you know what the term means?

    Parent
    I'm not making... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:05:14 PM EST
    ...a DSM-IV diagnosis.  Geez.  Fine, I'll refer to it as an "unpredictable, frequently angry and reactionary temper" so as not to offend the PC squad.

     Out of line for TalkLeft indeed...

    Parent

    McCain is secretly working for the vietcong. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:40:16 PM EST
    OBVIOUSLY

    Parent
    It seems that (none / 0) (#55)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:48:43 PM EST
    he is a "bold new leader" with plans.  They just are not to the liking of some Democrats. He is in the center.  He is doing what he thinks is right and paying little attention to the criticism.  He thinks FISA can be fixed and apparently he likes parts of it.  He believes in the death penalty for child rapists....so do alot of the population.  He believes that it is dangerous for DC, ....so do its citizens believe this. He and only he said he would decide if he would accept public funding and opt out.

    If all that isn't bold I don't know what is.

    Parent

    These are not the promises he made (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by MarkL on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:58:46 PM EST
    one year ago.
    What new, DIFFERENT, bold plans will he unveil if he is elected?

    Parent
    Hardly new or bold (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:17:00 PM EST
    He promised to filibuster FISA, now he likes it.
    Well, liking it is new.  Capitulation is not bold.

    He believes in the death penalty...so do[es] a lot of the population.
    Um, given the number of people favoring the death penalty for years, not new and hardly bold.

    Public funding
    He promised aggresive pursuit of an agreement, and then backed out.
    Bold, in the sense that he's ruined public funding for elections for years to come -- ok, I'll give you that one.  Not new, though.

    Funny, I'm just not seeing a lot of new and bold here.  Maybe you were saving your real arguments for another time?


    Parent

    How the heck does anyone know ... (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by Inky on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:29:07 PM EST
    what Obama really thinks? Obama once opposed the death penalty and supported gun control. Until recently, he opposed FISA and supported a filibuster against it. He once said that he would accept public financing if his GE opponent did. And let's not even get into his former support for single-payer and supposed opposition to NAFTA. I won't even touch his foreign policy about-faces, which have been well documented.

    Sometimes I suspect I do know what Obama thinks, because the only constant in all of Obama's positions is that he craves the highest office and will take whatever position he thinks he needs to take in order to achieve that goal. I guess one could call his about-faces bold, but I honestly can't imagine how anyone could still be inspired by his candidacy. He's not just another pol -- he's about the most craven pol I've ever witnessed in my adult life.

    Who knows if he's even in the center. If the center cannot hold, I'm sure he is completely capable of moving even further to the right.

    (Sorry. I know you were being tongue-in-cheek, but I had to let loose.)

    Parent

    His nomination (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:44:39 PM EST
    ranks somewhere between the landings at Gallipoli and Market Garden in teh lost oportunity sweepstakes.

    Parent
    Bold? Sounds safe to me (none / 0) (#102)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:35:12 PM EST
    bold can (none / 0) (#139)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:26:09 AM EST
    self confident or imprudent; courageous or defiant;
    audacious or reckless........

    Bold, as I stated it, is his willingness to defy the left and go into the unknown without them. Does that mean he is discounting his liberal/progressive supporters? Probably...yes.  I don't believe he ever wanted them anyway with the exception of his team..if you attended those organizational meetings; became a Fellow, a Joshua, a Matthew.

    I digress.  Yes he is bold.

    Parent

    I don't think Digby intends to settle. (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Burned on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:36:10 PM EST
    She's just sighing.
    Tomorrow is a new day and I imagine she'll take it by the horns.

    So here you have a guy who has spouted (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:39:14 PM EST
    off about change constantly and was what he ran on, but if he wins, he better not make too many changes?

    Symbolic change? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by pie on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:39:34 PM EST
    OMFG.

    I know I'm the doomsayer, (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by magisterludi on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:33:30 PM EST
    but NOTHING is going to change until we make it change. I think it's pretty apparent that Obama is only offering symbolic change, like every pol that has ever run.

    The other day I was listening to the Wall Street solipsists on CNBC (there really are two Americas!) talking about the CEO of Dow calling in the O campaign, giving them the rules of political engagement. That these modern day robber barons are so comfortable with the "pragmatic Obama", so sure he will assuage the Liberal Elite and AA's, makes me beyond skeptical.

    Regardless, the way the economy and weather are behaving, saber rattling by Bush and the Israeli Right, the political landscape could change on a dime. The natives aren't just restless anymore.

    Oh, and populist is the new dirty word, up there with liberal, socialist and pinko.

    Parent

    I think there are some areas ... (4.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:10:30 PM EST
    where the change may be less than symbolic.

    The ending of race-based Affirmative Action, for instance.

    I know Affirmative Action isn't an issue the proggy blogs care about.  But I do.

    And I think this change alone could lead Obama to becoming the most reviled Presidents in the African American community since Rutherford B. Hayes.

    And rightly so.  It's a very bad idea.  And not just for African Americans but for American society in general.

    Parent

    I've read this on other blogs and forums (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Grace on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:32:59 PM EST
    too.  One does have to wonder, once we have a President of the USA who is a minority, do we still need Affirmative Action programs?  If you look at all the minorities that have held high positions in government, relative to their percentage of the overall population, do we really need AA anymore?  Clinton and Bush both had quite a few minorities in high places.    

    Parent
    A rather ridiculous argument ... (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:53:21 PM EST
    it's like saying, "There are fewer elderly people in poverty today.  Do we really need Social Security?"

    Parent
    Yeah, it does seem kind of ridiculous (none / 0) (#129)
    by Grace on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:53:42 AM EST
    but, on the other hand, it would be interesting to see what percentage of high level offices were held by minorities compared to non-minorities and how it stacks up relative to the percent of population in the USA these groups have.  

    In other words, if 50% of Bush's cabinet had been black and blacks only make up 10% of the population, I think it kind of shows that AA might not be as needed as it once was.  

    Women (but this is a sex based argument, not a race based one) are tremendously underrepresented because we make up 50%+ of the population.    

    Parent

    Those are tokens (none / 0) (#130)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 02:05:48 AM EST
    They're good for deflecting press inquiries and little else.

     He also appointd gay men as "AIDS czars." Republican gay men, of course, for which he undoubtedly earned praise from Sullivan and other such degenerates at the time.

     Senator Obama could stuff his staff with straight, white, gentile males for all I care.  Bush's tokenism means nothing because that is all his selections are...tokens. Certainly not reflected in policy.

     

    Parent

    We'll always have sexism, I mean Paris (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:10:32 AM EST
    Some things never go out of style: gratuitous French-hatred, for instance. Here's looking at you, kid!

    Best exposition ever: "The Nazis wore grey. She wore blue."

    Parent

    You don't know Digby. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by pie on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:40:45 PM EST


    change the country desires? (5.00 / 10) (#23)
    by clbrune on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:43:07 PM EST
    Actually half the party wants Clinton-style change, but be that as it may...
    Isn't it Obama's obligation to strive for the change his campaign has been promising for a year and a half?  You know, the "yes we can,"  "politics of unity," "change we can believe in,"  etc?

    This is my real Obama problem, as he continues to display no real leadership, as he continues to tack along the path of least resistance, and as he continues to do nothing representative of his professed values (FISA, anyone?), he show himself to be merely a politician...one who takes the easy road (gosh, running on a platform of vague "change" is not exactly challenging given the current circumstances, is it?).

    /rant off--thanks for letting me vent ;-)

    Obama's change was always undefined. (none / 0) (#133)
    by kimsaw on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:00:58 AM EST
    He hasn't changed his game plan since day one. Give them everything and give them nothing. He's has never defined himself. He has continually played to the right, the left, the in-betweens and the extremes. He's is a cult leader period all image and no truth. He's played every "ism" he can conjure. He gets away with it cause his run is defined by the media and pundits as historic when it's really in its framework ordinary.

    He has xeroxed the Republican play book and made it his own. Is that the new politics? He embraces politics while readily dismisses his middle name, his religion, even family members are expendable when he's in political trouble. He stands up to and for nothing unless its politically convenient. Who can prove otherwise.

    This image worship is getting old. What did he do for those folks on the Southside in Rezko's housing units? He's a community organizer and yet what are the real dynamics involved in such a job? What are his real accomplishments? Was simply marching with them on his way to gaining their constituency enough?

    There is nothing in his record that qualifies him to be president of the United States, he can't offer his own words as truth, they're borrowed and poll tested, at least G. Washington was forthright about the cherry tree! In fact I'd offer Obama's change isn't really change at all just political strategy as usual and if that's what America wants, we've already seen it and thy name is Bush II.

    Parent

    I'm different from you guys (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:56:42 PM EST
    I happen to think no one deserves to be called a racist, unless they are a racist.  Maybe my age is showing, but the word used to mean something.

    Nader is too tunnel-visioned to be racist (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by BoGardiner on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:42:20 PM EST
    I have little sympathy for him either.  He is utterly oblivious to any sensitivities beyond his own.  There are many negative adjectives for the guy, insensitive, tone-deaf, narcissistic, etc.  

    Everyone knows this about Nader.

    But racist?  Just damn disingenuous.

    Calls of sexism, racism, any bigotry, simply MUST be in good faith, looking at ALL that is known about the person and the context.  One must look at the pattern.  Anything else is destructive soundbite parsing and more gotcha games, reducing our dialogue to the most shallow imaginable.  

    Worse, it reduces the sting of the label.  Now George Allen, he of the desk noose, Confederate flag pin, and macaca, is no worse than Ralph Nader.  It's all now a cartoon without depth.

    Parent

    TalkLeft does not allow (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:44:48 PM EST
    people to label other people racists.

    Parent
    I love Digby... (5.00 / 12) (#33)
    by Jackson Hunter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:57:24 PM EST
    but I can see what your complaint is here.  It's only June and this election has become a sad joke that is rapidly teeing me off into fits of rage.

    So this is why we let Bill Clinton be destroyed?  This is why we let Hilary be smeared as a repug-lite racist c*nt who eats little African American children so that she could fill out her "pantsuit"?  So that we can patiently wait for real change because the Party leaders were both stupid and corrupt enough to drag an African American with no real experience (yeah, yeah, they call Ann Coulter a Constitutional Scholar too, those words haven't meant much to me in a while) across an artificial finish line for literally 30 pieces of silver (Obama will raise more funds, he must be a better candidate).  

    We're trading the knocking down of one barrier (which I agree is important to knock down) for the continued sodimization of the Middle, Working and Poor Classes by the Corporatic machine because it will make us feel "just" as a Nation.  What will make us "just" as a nation is when we actually have a just System!  I'm not two, I realize that "Absolute Justice" is about as realistic as the "Perfect Market", but that doesn't mean we can't try to make things more just, and a cosmetic change at the top is meaningless.  Sure, it will be a nice irony if an African American can occupy the Capital built by slaves, but it won't really change anything, especially if we're not going to push for the necessary, I'd say vital, changes that must be made.

    Jeebus effing Crisco.

    Jackson

    What a choice (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by mmc9431 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:08:24 PM EST
    [But] [w]e chose serious symbolic change that has deep cultural meaning over serious ideological change that has deep political meaning. . . .

    So he feels our choice is either image or substance? Well I'll take substance any day.

    If that proves to be the substance of Obama's campaign, he will lose an election that should have been in the bank. The American public is disgusted with the way things are and the candidate that offers real change with substance will be the one that wins.

    I have seen no evidence... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:10:11 PM EST
    ...that Americans were prepared for a major ideological shift.

     They're unhappy.  That doesn't mean that they've embraced liberalism.

    Parent

    The couintry (5.00 / 5) (#43)
    by mmc9431 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:33:54 PM EST
    is way past unhappy. Every survey and every report shows they are really ticked. And as the economy continues to slide they'll become even more ticked. Someone with leadership qualities and a concise vision could move the country in a more liberal path. We're not the right wing conservative culture that some would like to believe.

    Parent
    They are embracing (5.00 / 6) (#54)
    by magisterludi on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:48:25 PM EST
    the fact that their elected officials are bought and paid for and the people are getting screwed in the process. I talk to middle class working people, black and white, R or D, and they all say the same thing- Americans needs to take care of America for a change.

    And I think unhappy is a feeble description. Many are desperate and angry.

    Parent

    Ideological shift is reflected (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by badger on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:41:45 PM EST
    in Bush's approval numbers, in the right track/wrong track numbers, consumer confidence numbers, and lots of other data.

    Whether it signifies a change to liberalism makes no  difference, since the two major candidates are to varying degrees center-right. There is no realistic liberal option waiting for voters in November.

    But most people do want to see "the system" repaired, and most of the polling indicates they favor liberal/progressive solutions and have for a lot of years. But for a lot of years, like this year, there hasn't been a genuine liberal candidate available - just Republican and Republican-lite.

    Parent

    Ya Think? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:18:44 AM EST
    "just Republican and Republican-lite"

    I guess it always depends on which side and how far from the fence you are sitting. You see Obama as Republican Lite and the Republicans label him as the most Liberal Senator in Washington.

    Parent

    Fer sure (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by badger on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:38:11 AM EST
    My point of view is definitely from much farther left than where Republicans sit.

    It's also about the same distance, give or take, from where Obama sits. A distinction without a difference IMO, and only IMO for sure.

    Parent

    That's Nader talk (none / 0) (#108)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:58:29 PM EST
    Didn't buy it in 2000, sure didn't buy it in '04 and you ain't selling it to me in '08.  

    Parent
    They're not embracing liberalism, but ... (none / 0) (#141)
    by RonK Seattle on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:24:19 PM EST
    ... they've never been more ready.

    They massively reject Bush's deeds.

    With a little prompting, they'd be ready to reject the belief system behind Bush's deeds.

    Given an alternative, they could be led to embrace it.

    Parent

    This quote is curious (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:15:51 PM EST
    As a Democrat whom they've already successfully, and erroneously, labeled as super liberal (and closet terrorist, which amounts to the same thing) Obama must work twice as hard as an older white male would have to do to prove to the gasbag elites that he can "connect" with Real Americans.

    from Digby, because it doesn't really line up with what happened in the primaries.  He had basically nothing to prove to the gasbag elites, because they loved him so desperately.  Work twice as hard as John Edwards?  The media would've buried him as a candidate for that expensive haircut.  

    He won a primary contest featuring unprecedented turnout while running with a completely unconventional foreign policy.  Just based on the size of the primary turnout, he has a mandate of sorts.

    But instead of reassuring Hillary voters and going after them, to really wrap things up, he has been a bit dismissive, although I think the Unity NH appearance was good.  Reports from his meeting with the Black Caucus were less rosy.

    Running to the center as he has the last week and a half seems designed for some invisible voting bloc that doesn't exist.  I don't think the Hillary voters need him to do that.  I don't think the libertarians Ben Masel thinks could swing to him want him to do that.  

    And again, none of what he is doing innoculates him from future Republican attacks, except on gun control.  When they really go after him, it will be on foreign policy, talks without preconditions, etc.  Approving of domestic spying without warrants iwill be completely useless in deflecting those attacks.  

    I sort of wonder if he didn't just forfeit his FISA stance because he wanted to sideline it.  His campaign is so tightly controlled that a battle in Congress may have been just a little too unpredictable for them.  

    If doing this things didn't seem so uncomfortable to him, maybe they wouldn't seem so uncomfortable to me.  

    This reminds me of those (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:22:37 PM EST
    Who in the past who have amused themselves with the possibility that Clinton had to vote for the AUMF because she was a woman.

    Disclaimer:  If that is not you, then I am not speaking about you.

    this is off topic (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:45:31 PM EST
    Setting Historical Precedent = (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:07:29 PM EST
    Spent political capital.

    Seems kind of the same thing to me.  The same kind of mindset.  It was the same kinds of things I saw said about Clinton throughout the primary, my personal obsession being the idea that was promoted, that attacks (sexist attacks) on Clinton polarized her and thus we should not nominate Clinton because she would be wasting all her political capital fending off those kinds of attacks. We need to move on... Etc. etc. etc.

    But sure if all people are gonna do is start up another debate about the AUMF then I didn't spend much time on this comment, this was just passing free association.

    Sorry about that.  To more directly address the topic, I believe they will do what they do because they believe it's the right thing to do given a set of priorities and their best assessment of the circumstances.

    Not because they are Female or African American.

    Suffice to say, in both cases, I agree with anyone who thinks this kind of hand wringing as it applied to Clinton, and now appears to apply to Obama is very misguided.

    Parent

    More Liberal B.S. Backtracking (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by fctchekr on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:43:33 PM EST
    WOW, he's saying, look, we've taken a huge step and elected a black man and changed history and politics forever, and this is such a sea change, that we shouldn't expect the real change the candidate actually ran on.

    FOR THAT, we'd have to change the village that elected him??

    Im truly nauseous!!

    Of all recent presidiential candidates (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by clio on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:49:40 PM EST
    Obama is, IMHO, the most suited to rock the boat - or even beach it and put the country on a new form of transport altogether.  While Obama's skin color is a minor thing, the fact remains that because of it many people are not sure what to expect of his candidacy.  

    While these voters may not agree with all changes Obama wishes to enact they will not be surprised that he does enact changes.  He's a new paradigm.  They expect something unexpected.

    Then, of course, there are the many who are counting on Obama to do something new.  After all he did say he would.  These voters not only expect something new they are demanding it.

    Shakespeare remarked on this everything new phenomenon centuries ago:

    There is a tide in the affairs of men.
    Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
    Omitted, all the voyage of their life
    Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
    On such a full sea are we now afloat,
    And we must take the current when it serves,
    Or lose our ventures.

    -Julius Caesar

    It's infuriating and depressing to see Obama squandering his flood tide and turning into a run of the mill beltway pol.  These chances to break the mold and throw it completely away come along once in a lifetime.

    [BTW, this new paradigm of the unknown and unexpected would have applied to Clinton also.]

    Excellent! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Coral on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:18:02 PM EST
    Kudos for quoting Shakespeare, who understood politics and naked political ambition.


    Parent
    You might want to remember that (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by mikeyleigh on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:20:30 AM EST
    Brutus says this to Cassius, persuading him to give battle whereupon both of them get their butt kicked by Antony and Octavian.  Not saying of course that Obama is destined to get beaten by McCain.

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#140)
    by clio on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:58:57 AM EST
    Of course, I remember, mikey.  In fact, I hesitated over the quote precisely because the venture being urged turned out badly.

    But most commentators, Shakespeare, and, at least in the play, Brutus himself recognize there is a time and a tide in history.  Great change requires great daring and great risk. Failure is always possible, but so is success - and the rewards of success in such a venture are incalculable.

    We are engaged in such a venture at present in Iraq.  I could wish that the neocons seemed to understand how great the risks to the whole country of that venture are.  OTOH, the risk of Obama and the Democrats for bold and principled positions are more circumscribed, and possibly much more in their control.  As Shakespeare said you can take the flood tide, if you're lucky enough to get one, or stay in the shallows.

    Parent

    What a sad state of affairs... (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:25:47 PM EST
    People are already making excuses for being disappointed in Obama. It's been less than a month since he was coronated.

    Just since then, he has equivocated on or flatly abandoned his previous positions on 1) public financing of his campaign, 2) the DC handgun ban, 3) the issue of Jerusalem in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, 4) telecom immmunity and FISA, and 5) NAFTA and other trade deals.

    Add that to his opaque position on universal health care and timidity on gay rights, and I'm not really sure what he really stands for, if anything. What will he fight for?

    Given his ambition, maybe the best hope is to convince him that a major achievement is his only hope of being remembered as a historically great president. Pass universal health care--real universal health care--and you'll be remembered like FDR or LBJ. Fret about popularity and polls, and you wind up like the caricature of Bill Clinton that "progressives" like to paint, only less effective.

    Variation on a Theme... (5.00 / 5) (#103)
    by santarita on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:40:25 PM EST
    Digby's column makes an interesting point that in choosing Obama, the Dem party elite chose symbolic over ideological change.  But unfortunately the column looks like another attempt to  try and fit Obama's non -progressive actions into the progressive frame.  Can't be done so stop trying.

    It might be a better use of time and intellect to figure out whether there is any way to get a progressive agenda enacted by a non=progressive president and to think about how so many people could have been so easily deluded.

    If Obama is symbolic change, doesn't he start diminishing the symbolic value of his candidacy by adopting the conventional wisdom that got us into the mess that is Iraq and the mess that is our economy?

    Parent

    We were sold "Change." (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Marco21 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:31:42 PM EST
    Not "Incremental Change" or "Change You Can Believe In Will Be Coming Soonish."

    I don't expect him to work miracles. I do expect him to be more interesting than my morning slice of toast. His campaign and actions of the past week aren't instilling confidence in anybody, certainly not in those who jumped on the "Change" bandwagon looking for just that.

    And sorry, I am not so familiar with Digby, but I am familiar with the tone of the piece and the countless others pieces in all media defending Barack's recent actions and words. Erstwhile but lacking a bit in the conviction department.

    Agree. (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by oldpro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:15:48 PM EST
    I think Digby is wrong about what the country can take.  The problem is not the country...not now any more than it was when we were 'saved' from the awful prospect of Nixon going to jail.  The country would survive just fine in both instances.  We are not as fragile a people as some profess to think.

    However...the problem is Obama.  He is only capable of symbolic change, evidently...unless he is co-opted by someone if he's elected, and then it may be (as in GWB's case) by default more than by his design.  More likely, change will come as the design of others...I fear...

    People are dying for him to rock the boat... (5.00 / 5) (#98)
    by sallywally on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:17:17 PM EST
    and he's just not doing it.

    And for someone who's made such drastic change so quickly, he's still really boring.

    There's nothing gripping at all about him now - well, except that he's making these horrifying flip-flops!

    But he still isn't engaging - grabbing - the public, is he? Maybe I'm just watching the wrong news, but shouldn't the MSM be following him if he's doing anything?

    McCain is running many multiples of the ads in Ohio that Obama is. Is this because we've been thrown under the bus?

    I hear he's coming to Ohio again, but again to a very small group of people and totally closed-door. Just like the last time he was here.

    CLINTON WOULD NOT BE DOING ANY CLOSED-DOOR MEETINGS.

    He is still not the official nominee.....

    Prevent Defense (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by WakeLtd on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:55:16 PM EST
    "All a prevent defense does is prevent you from winning" - John Madden

    For the past 2 weeks, the actions of the Obama campaign seem more focused on not offering anything bold, out of fear it would be used by his Republican opponent. If I hear one more warning from an Obama surrogate about what the terrible "527s" are planning to do to  Barack Obama - well, it is just getting to sound like it is a campaign in fear of losing. Not a campaign confident of winning. And now they are going into a defensive,  almost timid, posture. Don't rock the boat! And it's only June!

    Obama missed the boat (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:04:22 AM EST
    Since the problem is that he's still on the pier, strapping on his life preserver of conservative values, in case the boat might be rocked if he ever gets in it, revs the engine, and really begins his campaign.

    Thing is, I think he missed the boat -- the window of opportunity in recent weeks, with McCain's campaign not doing much exciting, either.  Obama could have owned these weeks and gotten out in front on many issues.  Instead, he got stuck in the dock shop, doing price comparisons on life preservers.

    Guess that's what comes from not having a candidate with experience in such waters?

    Parent

    Digby misses the real point (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:29:54 AM EST
    of Obama's weakness with regard to advocating aggressively for progressive policy.

    Obama's electoral problem isn't the color of his skin. Demonstrably, it's his associations with radical left elements. He was going gangbusters in his quest for the nomination until his associations with Wright, and with what Wright was preaching from his pulpit, were uncovered. Other like issues came up.

    None of those problems were inherent to Obama's race. Another AA political leader might well have avoided them -- indeed, whatever his other faults, Colin Powell has managed to do so.

    Unto itself, the baggage Obama has developed over the primaries would simply have doomed him in virtually any other election cycle. He has a shot of winning in 2008 only because it favors Democrats so heavily.

    But if Obama acts as though he will have very little political capital to work with should he win the Presidency, I don't see how this belief is wrong.

    And the one thing that strikes me as unimaginable is that Obama will ever take one for the team, and fight for progressive policies if it puts at any risk his own political standing. And his is a precarious political standing to begin with.

    If Obama should win, I think we should all resign ourselves to change we can be disappointed in.

    Smells like 2000 all over again (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by zridling on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:32:21 AM EST
    Um... what "change" exactly are you thinking that obama is going to bring? Looks like the only change he ever does is change his mind on his own positions. He's already failed his [blind] supporters on FISA and gun control. What next? Too bad you didn't want to talk policy during the primaries, but you deserve the worst candidate since the repubs "selected" Bush in 2000 much like the DNC did for obama.

    Stop redefining this guy every day just to make an excuse for your support. He WILL lose the general election in the electoral college, I promise you.

    Is this better than relying on (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:36:01 AM EST
    John Dean to rationalize Sen. Obama's current positions?

    what "new" ground (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:17:00 AM EST
    has sen. obama broken? he isn't the nominee yet, unless it's now sept., and i was comatose through august. he isn't the first black presidential nominee in this country. granted, the others weren't nearly as serious as this, but that doesn't make him first. hell, black men had the vote before white women did!

    i don't expect sen. obama, should he be the dem nominee, to rock any boats. not because i think it would imperil his candidacy, but because you must have substance, before you can rock anything.

    his boat will bounce down-river, like a rudderless scow, until it finally breaks up completely on the shoals in nov.

    I don't get this... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:35:48 PM EST
    But nothing comes free and having a politically moderate president at a time when a more explicit progressivism might have gotten a boost is the price we pay.

     Who was offering that who was in the running? Not one of the front runners.

    John Edwards (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:39:54 PM EST
    And during the primaries, Barack Obama.

    Parent
    Hard to square... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:41:37 PM EST
    ...with their actual records and policies.

    Parent
    Edwards (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:24:53 PM EST
    is a different case because he was clearly mortified by the war.  And he was drifting left over a period of years.  2004 general election campaign also deeply shifted the meaning of things for him.  It's quite possible he'd have shifted back on an issue or two but--he was always pro-gun, tough on crime tec.   His deal was a repudiation of the war and a thorough critique of the economy.  He's always been a consistent voice on Economics.

    If you can't see that basic trend you need to clear the sleet out of your eyes.

    Parent

    Well, yes, that's exactly what many of us (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:37:34 PM EST
    were saying about what Obama was saying vs. his problematic record and policies, such as they were on his website.

    But we were shouted down on some sites, shut out of others, and argued with for saying so even here -- and as I recall, you have been for Obama all along, too?  If I recall so correctly, then did you just discover this about his record and policies?

    Parent

    BTD is a centrist type (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:53:22 PM EST
    with a few pet liberal issues.

    Parent
    Yes, I know... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:16:14 PM EST
    ...a free trader with objections to conservatism frequently found among lawyers of various ideological backgrounds.   Raised by them and among them, not much of a surprise.

     I knew exactly what Obama was with his CAFA support.  A bad piece of legislation that I disagree with.  But precisely what I've come to expect from mainstream Democrats.  I do think he is more liberal than he is willing to let on (just as I think Bush is more conservative than he lets on...which is terrifying), but a Marxist he is not.

    Parent

    Never claimed... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:45:28 PM EST
    ...he was a socialist in sheep's clothing.  If you thought anyone was going to run as a liberal in the GE you were mistaken.

     I was for Obama after SC.  I guess in political time that is "all along."  Regardless, I knew all of his positions are firmly within the acceptable centrist paradigm that rules American politics.
    The fact that he is a gifted orator with a strong media presence is a major plus, yes.  

      Maybe Edwards would have been a populist candidate in the GE; he dropped out before I got the chance to vote.


    Parent

    I really dislike this comment (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:39:05 PM EST
    Sorry.

    This nomination (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:38:12 PM EST
    will rank as the biggest missed oportunity in the history of left wing politics.  The more I think about it the more I anm convinced we've finally missed the last bus.

    Parent
    Hrm (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:11:45 AM EST
    Hillary would have been an excellent President IMO, and a step forward for the Democratic brand, but she certainly wouldn't have changed the world.  Or are you suggesting we missed the boat by failing to nominate Kucinich?

    Parent
    I tend to agree with this (none / 0) (#28)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:52:47 PM EST
    Incremental change is the only way to really get where we need to be. It won't all come at once.

     It has before, of course...in very troubled periods of US history.  Two steps forward, one step back is the usual waltz, though.

     Actually what concerns me is that the Democratic coalition will cave and infighting will start almost immediately into his first term.  I foresee anti-war protests on the streets, a backlash from liberals and conservatives alike, etc. That will happen with McCain or Obama.

     However, we may have two retirements on the Court in the first two years, particularly if Obama wins, and Obama could effect a lot of change just by pushing through moderates.

    Parent

    Great progressive change rarely comes ... (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Robot Porter on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:51:57 PM EST
    from incrementalism.  Many books have been written about this.

    But what upsets me more is the number of Obama supporters who are waving the flag of incrementalism since Obama got the nomination.

    How can you one month compare Obama to FDR, and then the next month say, "Oh, incrementalism is fine"?

    The only logic that squares that circle is that you've subscribed to a cult of personality.  That Obama the man is more important than his policies.


    Parent

    Change is almost always incremental (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:01:55 PM EST
    The final boom might be quick, but major change takes years with small battles that are won under the radar that allow for serious "swift change".

    Parent
    The NHS was done in a few years. (none / 0) (#73)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:27:32 PM EST
    You are making it up as you go along.

    Parent
    In this country things take longer unfortunately (none / 0) (#90)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:46:43 PM EST
    Abolition (truth be told though the final event was a war, the fight did not start with it)

    Suffrage (took a long while with many steps forward and backwards)

    Civil rights (King gets all the credit, because Americans don't like to read history books and understand how many years before he started his amazing works the foundation for this movement began)

    I actually just went to hear a discussion on FDR and heathcare.  According to the doctor, FDR moved "slowly" because he knew even with his popularity he could not get drastic change done quickly.  

    P.S.
    I think the only time in recent memory something could have been done quickly is right after sept 11.

    Parent

    It doesn't? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:21:43 PM EST
    Even FDR was an incrementalist most of the time.  And he had four terms. And what he was proposing was a radical transformation of the nature of the federal government, for the time.  Compared to what the communists and fascists did it was downright tepid.    

     And great change is associated with violent conflict.  And a lot of books have been written about a lot of things, with lots of theories.  WHat I learned from studying political theory in undergrad is that, frankly, attempts to enact massive change overnight end in failure.

    The only logic that squares that circle is that you've subscribed to a cult of personality.

     That was tiresome during the primary and it is tiresome today.

    Parent

    Both the New Deal and Great Society programs ... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:45:38 AM EST
    were adopted extremely rapidly.  And there wasn't a lot of failure there.

    Large portions of both survive to this day, and represent some of the best and most efficient progressive programs ever instituted.

    Parent

    two phases (none / 0) (#80)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:35:48 PM EST
    The New Deal and then the war years. The war was a moment when the government tpook over 50% of the economy directly.

    Parent
    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#74)
    by oldpro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:27:38 PM EST
    Just who do you imagine retires in the first two years that would make any change, much less "a lot," on the court?

    Assuming you're talking age and/or illness, of course.  You can assume some things but not getting hit by a bus or choking ona cheeseburger.

    Parent

    Y'know, I have wondered what happens (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:41:40 PM EST
    if someone on the Supreme Court retires ahead of schedule (i.e., O'Connor's husband's health) or otherwise has to be replaced -- in the remainder of this year, thus by Bush?  And it's another conservative?

    Then what happens to the SCOTUS argument that it's all about that swing vote on the court, all about voting for a Dem, any Dem will do, because of that?

    Yeh, the talk is of the next two appointments.  But the next one is the really interesting one, and especially if it has to happen sooner. . . .

    Parent

    Well, Cream (none / 0) (#121)
    by caseyOR on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:47:15 AM EST
    one would hope that if a current justice left before Bush is out the Democrats in the Senate would refuse to confirm a Bush appointee.  That would, of course, require a little, I shouldn't think all that much, political courage. And the Dems seem to be in rather short supply of that.

    Surely, the case could be made to the voters that it would be better to wait for the new president.

    Parent

    Oh, many a case can be made (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:13:06 AM EST
    for many a courageous or even just basic, common-sense stand by Dems in Congress.

    Just words, though.  That's all we have been getting from them despite working our butts off to get a Dem Congress.  So I'm not so sanguine as to what they would do.

    Parent

    I'm trying to wrap my mind around (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:16:01 AM EST
    Digby's expectations if the Dem. putative nominee was yet again another Caucasian male, say Steny Hoyer.  

    Parent
    Now, that gives me pause (none / 0) (#137)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:01:00 AM EST
    and a bit of a shudder. . . .

    Parent
    Stevens and Ginsburg (none / 0) (#83)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:38:29 PM EST
    Although I must admit, it would be less about change than preventing a disaster.

    Parent
    I cannot imagine (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by oldpro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:09:53 PM EST
    that with the retirement of those two that any Democratic president could appoint two who would be more liberal, more progressive...change things for the better in any way.

    We would gain nothing there...only preserve what we have, perhaps, if we were very, very lucky.  

    No guarantees with Obama, I'd say.

    Parent

    Obie bragged about standing up to The Left ... (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:15:03 AM EST
    ... last week.

    He's spent more time admiring GOP conservatives like Reagan and Bush Poppy while trashing centrist Dems like Senator and fmr President Clinton.

    I've recognized a lot of "borrowed" phrases from passionate trail blazers in Obama's cobbled speeches, but Thurgood Marshall quotes weren't among them. (The last couple of months, Obama speeches have been unbearable so if the quotes were there, I missed them.)

    He's not going to balance the SCOTUS or other courts with liberals and Dems wouldn't fight for them anyway.

    I've said it before and it still holds: the hardest thing Obama fought for the past year was that d@mn waffle.

    Parent

    Keep singin' that tune (none / 0) (#114)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:25:51 AM EST
    If it helps you to support someone other than Obama run with it.  That's all the comfort you got.  

    Parent
    If my lying eyes and ears stop ... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:34:52 AM EST
    ... seeing and hearing what's on the public record, will oPods stop dumping this pseudo therapy to explain away Obama's latest pander to the right?

    Yes, Obama said he would be standing up to the left-leaning Dems, as if they've been the biggest problem during the GW Bush era.

    "Comfort" isn't what I seek from apologists when I talk about the direct course that the presumptive Dem nominee for President is taking.

    I seek direct, straightforward answers from that nominee.

    Parent

    huh (none / 0) (#120)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:40:43 AM EST
    I seek direct, straightforward answers from that nominee.

     Yeah, the closest you would have gotten to that is Feingold...and even there, not all the time.  And he didn't run.

     So...sorry.  Not buying it.  If this is how you feel then there are third party candidates for your protest vote.  So why bother attacking Obama so incessantly? Shill for your preferred candidate if you must, but it has become tiresome when all you are interested in doing is knocking the Democratic candidate.

    Parent

    Since when are Praise or STFU the only options ... (4.75 / 4) (#127)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:18:26 AM EST
    ... anyone has in the democratic process?

    Remind me again what office Obama's seeking?

    The document he'll be vowing to uphold should he win?

    The document he has already vowed to uphold?

    Parent

    See... (none / 0) (#99)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:21:24 PM EST
    ...despite my many objections to President Clinton's administration, when it came to judges he was pretty consistent.

     I frequently disagree with Breyer and Ginsburg on some issues, but in the long run the replacement of any of the moderate five will result in a swift and profound change in the law.  And with it, the country.

     You may not trust Obama on this issue, but I do. It is one area where I trust any Democratic candidate.

    Parent

    I agree with you too (none / 0) (#58)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:51:03 PM EST
    too many Blue Dogs in Congress.  They will never vote for UHC.

    Well, maybe will Obamas health care plan they will consider it.

    Parent

    I don't think anyone is offering UHC (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:58:10 PM EST
    They are offering UHI. Just insurance. UHC would be what the rest of the world enjoys. Health care.

    Parent
    love the username (none / 0) (#19)
    by nycwahoodem on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:41:10 PM EST
    Big Tent = i will demoralize all others who do not agree with me on every tenet.

    Obama's a democrat, the other choice is a republican -- and a conservative one at that -- there is one option here.

    Some democrats will be 95% fine with his stance on issues, others 55%, but they will always be more inline than McCain.

    You are more likley to affect progressive change if you get more and better democrats in congress. A president is president of at least 51% of the country...if they govern just for the blogs, they're president of nothing.

    love the username (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:47:57 PM EST
    It sucks that there is only one option here.  Thank you, and the DNC, for telling me what my options are; what would I do without a powerful and caring party machine!

    and fyi, you might want to be careful with that demoralizing word in the context of an anti-democratic DNC candidate that ran a fake change campaign, supported sexism, race-baiting, vote suppression, and continues to support policy-for-the-privileged.

    Parent

    Oh my. (4.66 / 6) (#29)
    by pie on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:52:57 PM EST
    Some democrats will be 95% fine with his stance on issues, others 55%, but they will always be more inline than McCain.

    What issues?

    Parent

    Cultural vs Ideological (none / 0) (#21)
    by Coldblue on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:41:28 PM EST
    Her take is interesting; almost prescient given the course we are about to witness.

    Do not call people (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:46:06 PM EST
    or candidates racist here. Your comment will be deleted.

    Why Rock The Boat (none / 0) (#52)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:47:10 PM EST
    Many will hate this thought, but thus far not rocking the boat has been a successful tactic. There have been 16 GE presidential polls this month. Comparing the first eight with the most recent eight (Gallup Tracking and Rasmussen Tracking are included in the most recent) and throwing out the high and the low from each half... yields the following results.

    Early June Obama +4.2%
    Late June Obama + 6.3%

    Obama has increased his lead through June. Rocking the boat during a campaign doesn't win you votes. It tends to lose you elections. Elections today are won on fluff. The nuts and bolts of progress can come once you are in office.

    NOTE I believe Hillary would have followed this same tactic and be leading by the same margin or more had she been the nominee.

    But in the case of Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:46:15 PM EST
    doing so, she would not have been a hypocrite reversing the promise of "new politics."

    Btw, no, I don't think that Clinton would have reversed on so much in so little time -- like Obama's reversal on Iraq only the day after he "clinched" the nomination.  And so much since.  It's a flipflopping record, even for a Dem candidate.

    Parent

    Lentinel's comments (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:49:12 PM EST
    have been deleted for race-baiting and insults to Digby. One more and s/he is suspended.

    Mischaracterization. (none / 0) (#142)
    by lentinel on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 10:11:16 AM EST
    I noticed that you deleted my first reference to Digby's statement as quoted by BTD.

    I took that in.
    So, I posted the quotation from Digby again, without comment, and asked what people thought of it.

    This too was deleted.

    I have no intention to insult anybody. I appreciate the civility of the comments on your blog. I realize I have been a guest on your site, and I have every intention of behaving accordingly.

    But I felt, and still feel, that the quotation I repeated from Digby was troubling - and worthy of discussion.

    Parent

    Does it make sense to "rock the boat"? (none / 0) (#67)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:16:27 PM EST
    I would love to see drastic change in the country, but in a represenative democracty as large as our own is it really possible, and given the size the diversity of the interests is it really a good thing.  It seems that in the long run, getting buy in from the diversity of interests is a good thing.    

    So you think (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by badger on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 11:49:28 PM EST
    that in 1964, LBJ and the majority in Congress should have worked out a compromise with the KKK and  George Wallace and the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers and all of the others with an interest in Jim Crow laws? They were wrong to just directly outlaw segregation? Getting buy in from all those diverse interests is a good thing?

    You believe Lincoln should have negotiated the Emancipation Proclamation with slave owners and slaves and abolitionists, maybe choosing some incremental process, like freeing slaves over 40 in Virginia in the first year, Georgia the next year, decreasing age groups later, etc?

    In other words, you belong to the "should pederasty be illegal? opinions differ ..." crowd. You think every point of view is equally valid, and every viewpoint needs to be heard, there is no clear right or wrong?

    You'll love Obama if he wins.


    Parent

    What really strikes me as (none / 0) (#134)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:44:10 AM EST
    just wrong, and in a deep way, about Digby's statement is that it fails to recognize that there are moments in history when people are ready for change.

    That's what explains how FDR changed the country. It explains how Reagan changed the country.

    Of course, there was a time when Obama himself portrayed himself as someone who might accomplish something of the like. And, of course, at the time his acolytes praised him for this, asserting that it was his greatest virtue and promise.

    And what's certainly true is that this moment too is one in which the people are yearning for fundamental change. Conservatism, as embodied with a perfection heretofore unknown in the person of George W Bush, has been fully discredited. His unpopularity derives most basically from the ideology he has implemented, and the vast majority of voters recognize this. The Conservative movement has been exposed as bankrupt; it has no answers; it has come up with not a single idea to move it past its current failures, and reconstitute itself.

    This, therefore, would be the time like no other to push a strong alternative in policy and ideology.

    And yet this splendid, and perhaps unrepeatable, opportunity will be squandered on a Democratic candidate who has no fundamental interest in advocating for such change, and, in any case, no apparent political ability to bring it about even if he were.

    Bitter disappointment is, I think, a moderate response to this outcome.

    We were all of us hoping for so much more.

    Good enough for me... (none / 0) (#135)
    by allpeopleunite on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:28:27 AM EST
    What a damn cop out. «You're black, that's good enough for me»... not that I have any illusions about bourgeois democracy and «change», but damn to give him a pass like that is just stupid.

    Digby sez (none / 0) (#136)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:39:45 AM EST
    Under the system as it exists today, you can hardly be surprised that the first black Democratic nominee would be reluctant to break much more new ground than he already has

    If this is truly the case, if an AA would be "reluctant to break much more new ground" in one of the more challenging times our country has faced in a long time, then maybe we should do one of two things:

    1.  Nominate the white woman who would be more likely to "break new ground".

    2.  Leave the guy's blackness at the door.  The Democrats are the ones who seem to want to emphasize Mr. Obama's skin color.

    The Democrats need to learn (to use Cesar Milan terminology) how to claim their space, become the alpha dogs.  The Republicans already unapologetically do that, and I think that's part of why they win time and again.

    The attitude of "See? he's black! and that's scary to some people, so he is understandably shy about doing anything else" is not going to win an election.  If the attitude does win, it will not be good for the country.  We have larger problems.


    This is horrible! (none / 0) (#138)
    by RonK Seattle on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:45:09 AM EST
    The Village changes in leaps and spurts, after intervals of resistance and stasis.

    The Village has rarely been hungrier for Big Change ... and instead we're about to hand the keys to a comfort-food accommodationist whose brakes naturally pull a little to the right.

    And "serious cultural change"? What's that? Everybody gets a "We voted for the black guy!" merit badge?