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History Lessons

Chris Bowers writes:

Barack Obama will receive more grassroots, progressive activist support than any other Democratic candidate in history.

Um, more than FDR? I am sorry, but history did not start in 2004.

Speaking for me only

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    Snark is spelled with 3 letters - (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Marco21 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:22:17 PM EST
    BTD.

    What Do You Call Cherry Picking? (none / 0) (#33)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:13:03 PM EST
    It's not snark.

    Here is what Bowers really said if you go to his post. I leave a couple of non-relevant sentences at the beginning and end out. Go read them for yourselves if you want to.

    1. Many progressives will continue to criticize Barack Obama in public between now and Election Day.

    2. Barack Obama will receive more grassroots, progressive activist support than any other Democratic candidate in history.

    No matter what we say, both the activism and the criticism will flow. Both are unavoidable, necessary and healthy We would be a pretty lame grassroots movement if we managed to quiet criticism, forge consensus or sit on their hands en masse. I would simply suggest that if you are interested in generating activism for Obama, that you should encourage activist rather than criticizing criticism. Because, in the end, telling someone to SYFPH really isn't a very effective call to action.

    So his main point is not activist support for Obama by itself. His main point is twofold as you can read.

    Now I am no fan of Bowers, but I'm also not a fan of cherry picking one line from someones writing and then presenting it out of context so that is why I present more in full of what he wrote.

    And while we are at it Armando says FDR had more grassroots, progressive activist support than Obama? Where are the numbers?

    According to some quick research FDR won reelection with 27,751,597 votes. By todays standards that is a pretty small number. Now how many of those were grassroots activists and how many of todays Obama supporters are grassroots activists is probably UNKNOWABLE as people don't register as grassroots activists per se and no such numbers are kept as to even estimates.

    I would venture to guess though that given todays population in comparison to the FDR era, combined with the increased number of voters, that anyone today, including Clinton, would probably would have more grassroots activists - whatever that term means.

    [ Parent ]

    Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:38:50 PM EST
    So by that measure, Kerry was the greatest Democratic candidate in history right?

    I knew the real you would show up soon.

    Interestingly, the context you provide does not really help Bowers' or you. But thanks for being you. The Real Talex has been missing for some time.o

    [ Parent ]

    Very calm. (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:41:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well Kerry did recieve the most (none / 0) (#54)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:55:31 PM EST
    votes ever for a Democrat I believe...

    But that was not what you posted about. You were challenging Bowers statement of Obama having the greatest number of "grassroots activists" and you asserted, without proof, that FDR did. As you can see that would have been virtually impossible due to the shear numbers of voters and population not to mention the advent of the Internet which has spawned a whole new breed of activist.

    And yes the context does help my argument because context always sheds new, if not 'hidden', light that the critic didn't take into consideration in their critic. But then you know that.

    Me being me? Hey the way I see it I'm helping Jeralyn keep her blog accurate and ging othr reader a different perspective on what is written. I don't think she would want a bunch of incorrect things on the front page would she? Especially stuff attacking other bloggers?  Besides, I'm not the only one who disagrees with you from time to time. Everyday I see others disagree with you. Everyday. It comes with the territory.

    As an aside - I still find it interesting, if not alarming, that a pro-Obama blog has been more critical of him than you have.

    [ Parent ]

    Have you discussed it (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:16:41 PM EST
    my criticism or lack thereof with John Horse? Geekesque? Sam Taylor?

    There seems to be a real difference of opinion on the subject.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (none / 0) (#68)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:25:43 PM EST
    Haven't discussed - haven't even read their opinions so don't know what their take is. But I can't imagine that they agree with you based on historic facts readily available.

    Again I'm no fan of Bowers but I'm no fan of out of context critic either that is not supported by facts which you offered none of.

    If you want to dispute the numbers and conclusions I have presented in a way other than saying I am wrong with no counter of those figures then be my guest.

    [ Parent ]

    Pffft (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:46:46 PM EST
    the Old silly Talex is back. Good to see you again.

    I do not know why, but it gives e certain comfort to see you back to what you were.

    I did not feel comfortable having you agree with me.

    This is much better.

    BTW, my point was not whether those 3 agree with me but rather whether they agree with you as to whether I have been critical of Obama or not.

    [ Parent ]

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:47:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You must acknowledge it was (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:58:34 PM EST
    rather disconcerting.  

    [ Parent ]
    You haven't benn critical of him (none / 0) (#89)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:02:22 PM EST
    'In your own voice'. You have tiptoed around it by extensively quoting Greenwald who is critical of Obama but even then you have added no opinion on your own.

    Show me a post in the last week where you have used your own words to be critical of Obama. And no "Pols are Pols" isn't criticism - it's a cop out.

    I don't understand why you are so afraid to criticize Obama. You even gave him a pass on FISA.

    [ Parent ]

    BTW (none / 0) (#92)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:05:23 PM EST
    From time to time I agree with people who I most often disagree with and I don't find that uncomfortable at all while you do. I guess it goes to disposition and mindset. Some people  can be accepting to anyone while others - not so much.

    [ Parent ]
    Er... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Marco21 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:06:08 PM EST
    I was just joking around. Jeez.

    [ Parent ]
    This is probably superfluous and (none / 0) (#154)
    by eric on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:24:14 AM EST
    this is an old thread, but I can't resist.

    According to some quick research FDR won reelection with 27,751,597 votes. By todays standards that is a pretty small number.

    Which time?  You do know that FDR was reelected three times, right?  And that there were a lot fewer people in the US in the 30's?  You do know that you are talking about Franklin Delano Roosevelt, right?

    I think history is dead, especially amongst the OFB.

    [ Parent ]

    History (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:22:19 PM EST
    started sometime in the 1970s, when Chris Bowers was born.  I'm surprised you didn't already know that, BTD.

    Does Bowers get the news from the (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:23:32 PM EST
    blogs?

    Future Reality (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:26:35 PM EST
    Isn't that sort of an oxymoron?

    It's a bending of (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:29:03 PM EST
    time and space kinda thing.

    [ Parent ]
    Channeling, No Doubt (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:32:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Another typical Bowers movement (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by myiq2xu on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:29:33 PM EST
    It stinks

    Chris Bowers is all over the place. (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by lentinel on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:35:20 PM EST
    Bowers wrote this incredible piece of prose back in March:

    "Obama is more about placating High Broderism, Tim Russert and the Washington Post editorial board than he is about transformative progressive change. I'll work hard to help elect him, but I also don't intend to delude myself about what to expect when he becomes President."

    This is the kind of grassroots, progressive activist support that Bowers is talking about.

    I think he's talking through his hat, but even if true --- these grassrootian progressive activists seem to be like him. They know more and more that Obama is not a progressive, is not an activist and has a rather condescending attitude toward the grassroots, but they will work hard for him anyway.

    Everybody should have a hobby.

    How old is he? That should tell you something (none / 0) (#29)
    by thereyougo on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:01:42 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    For those keeping score (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:37:38 PM EST
    FDR won 57% of the total vote in 1932. In 1936 he won 60.1%. And of course he won two more elections after that in 1940 and 1944.

    A little history we should all remember.

    And I was there! (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:34:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Same here, Molly... (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by oldpro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:23:07 PM EST
    three out of four... not that I could vote...or even remember it!

    [ Parent ]
    To my eternal shame, (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:51:39 PM EST
    I was for Wilkie for a time.  (Kids during those years learned some hard facts fast: facts about poverty and bombs.)

    [ Parent ]
    Percentage of popular vote (none / 0) (#48)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:41:56 PM EST
    does not equate of grassroots activists which as only part of Bower's point. Not all of those voting for any candidate are all grassroots activists. so you metric of percentage of popular vote is flawed IMO.

    Also in '04 Bush won xx% of the popular vote and that equated to 62,040,610 votes (Kerry 59,028,444), more than double FDR's, at the time record setting, popular vote total of 27,751,597. So by shear numbers FDR didn't even come close to modern day candidates do. and again percentage of vote nor total popular vote equate to how many grassroots activists a person has which effectively is unknowable.

    Link to previous post

    [ Parent ]

    So how do you define (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:14:58 PM EST
    grassroots support and how do you know Obama has more than FDR had?

    [ Parent ]
    I can't define it (none / 0) (#70)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:30:53 PM EST
    and neither can you. At least we can't quantify it and I said that upfront in my post.

    But again based on today's voting population and the huge numbers of activists both online and off I'd say Bowers is closer to the facts than you are.

    But of course if you want to argue that with today's internet, telephones (both land and cell), faxes email, ease of getting around the country, and generally more money available for the average person to have all those things that activism is less today that it was in FDR's era...

    Then make your case why.

    [ Parent ]

    I know VOTING is less today than then (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:44:25 PM EST
    Makes me feel confident that there were ore activists then than now.

    I like my side of the argument, a lot.

    [ Parent ]

    Less voting today? (none / 0) (#87)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:56:42 PM EST
    Better check your facts on that one.

    In 1936 FDR won the popular vote 27,751,597 to 16,679,583, for a total of 44,431180 votes.

    Bush-Kerry totaled 121,069,054 votes - almost three times as many votes. 2008 is projected to be even more.

    "I know VOTING is less today than then" - Big Tent Democrat

    Ha Ha! I wont even provide further comment. I'll let the numbers speak for themselves and let readers judge for themselves your wildly wrong statement.

    [ Parent ]

    Okay (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:13:28 PM EST
    As one reader judging for himself, it's obvious to me that BTD was referring to turnout percentages.

    I think you're positively silly, by the way, to keep harping on the fact that the population of the US is bigger than it was 70 years ago.  If that's the entire source of Bowers' point, then it's extremely pedantic.

    [ Parent ]

    2004 (none / 0) (#98)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:26:23 PM EST
    Highest turnout since 1968.  Are there stats on the 50s, 40s and 30s?

    [ Parent ]
    I think you are wrtong on that (none / 0) (#104)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:37:46 PM EST
    1992 had a higher VAP turnout than 2004 I believe.

    As for the earlier decades, you MUST know voter turnout steadily declined through the last 50 years.

    [ Parent ]

    Why that is is open to some question (none / 0) (#108)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:40:13 PM EST
    the various corrupt machines can't get away with voting the whole list anymore, for example.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#105)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:38:24 PM EST
    No. Go back and read Armando's (none / 0) (#99)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:27:05 PM EST
    original post. He quoted Bowers as saying Obama will have more activists in all of history. Armando disagreed with him and suggested that FDR did. That was the original subject of his post.

    Now if you want to fall for him changing the subject to percentages to confuse your mind then that is on you. But percentages were not mentioned by Bowers or Armando in his original comments.

    As for Bower statement and todays population - he didn't, and didn't have to mention todays population as that is a given that it is larger.

    Nowhere did Bowers mention percentages and you can't prove percentages one way or another anyway nor can you prove that FDR had more numbers,so you have no argument either. In shear numbers Obama, or Clinton for that matter very very likely do have more activist support for the reasons I already mentioned.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:36:34 PM EST
    you reduce yourself to an idiot every time.

    you really do.

    Of course I was referring to turnout of the VAP (pssst, that means voting age population.)

    How could I possibly be arguing absolute number of voters when I just made fun of you by taking your absurdity to its logical conclusion - to wit, the greatest Dem Presidential candidate was John Kerry, he got the most votes ever.

    Why do you insist on painting yourself an idiot?

    [ Parent ]

    No my friend (none / 0) (#113)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:48:48 PM EST
    you are.

    I know VOTING is less today than then

    Makes me feel confident that there were ore activists then than now.

    Your words, live with them.

    You know there is less VOTING today than then? LOL

    Hilarious Armando. Of course you didn't mean what you said. You never do.

    I'm out on this topic. If you can produce some numbers that show less people vote today than in the FDR period pray tell. LOL

    And if you can prove that FDR had more activists than Obama I'll buy you a house. Or a magic pony if you prefer.

    BTW - I hope Jeralyn deletes your post for calling posters names. Hasn't she warned you about that before? Really - such behavior doesn't represent her blog very well.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:39:36 PM EST
    Maybe I have no argument, but I am just one of those readers judging for myself, like you asked me to.

    I do not read that quote from Bowers as saying that Obama will have the largest raw number of supporters in history.  Like I said, you can read it that way, but it trivializes the point altogether.

    [ Parent ]

    What does it trivialize? (none / 0) (#116)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:52:24 PM EST
    Look I am not a Bowers fan or an Obama fan. But if the Netroots/Grassroots is growing and is larger than it has ever been in shear numbers then that is a good thing overall for us.

    Now I disagree with so any of them supporting Obama but that is totally another subject all together.

    [ Parent ]

    Because everything else grows too (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:02:36 PM EST
    If there are twice as many activists because there are twice as many people in the US, that doesn't suggest progress has been made.

    [ Parent ]
    Where do you get (none / 0) (#127)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:06:16 PM EST
    twice as many. How do you know there are not more than that?

    And you discount the things I already mentioned like the internet and faxes, etc  - and cheap travel.

    You are tying to come up with an argument to support your original argument but it falls flat because, one, you cite figures you have no way of supporting, and two you totally ignore the power we have in modern society via technology.

    Do you realize how many millions of conversations go on and are read with technology? What would it have taken to do that during the FDR era? Do you think as many people could have called, faxed, emailed their representatives during FDR? It would have been impossible to hold those millions of daily conversations that whoever wanted & where ever they were could listen in on and even participate.

    It's unbelievable given what you know above that you are buying into Armando's vendetta against Bowers, which is the crux of his silly disagreement.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Steve M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:18:45 PM EST
    Your point is like "if we assume Bowers is right, you have no rebuttal."  At this point I'm just laughing at you.

    The only way in which we can simply assume that there are more grassroots activists today than there were 70 years ago is that there are a lot more people in general than there were 70 years ago.  Once we move past that meaningless point, it's a claim that requires actual evidence.

    [ Parent ]

    Evidence - Exactl;y (none / 0) (#130)
    by talex on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:50:18 PM EST
    Which is why that is what I kept asking Armando for if you read my posts. I beat you to the evidence argument Steve so I am laughing at you for not reading. I even said there can be no evidence found for either side of the argument - except of course common sense.

    And you can't prove that there are not more than twice as many which is why you ignored that part of my post. And you know the power of each person is multiplied many fold because of technology as I pointed out - which again you ignore.

    So I see you as one of those posters who tries to win only and when you can't win then you just ignore being wrong by not responding to what was posted in response to you. That is sad. You are just here to argue and win and not learn and as such you will never move forward because we don't move forward by winning - you move forward by learning. But you have a tin ear so you are stuck.

    You call the number of grassroots activists "meaningless". I guess that include you too?

    [ Parent ]

    PERCENT OF ELIGIBLE VOTERS (none / 0) (#156)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:27:24 AM EST
    who actually vote.  It was higher then.  Lower now.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD- I was wondering that myself (none / 0) (#122)
    by kenosharick on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:30:01 PM EST
    if you look at highest percentages of "grassroots" voters/regular common people, you might consider Andrew Jackson. After his supporters thought Adams stole the election from him in 1824 (Jackson actually won more electoral votes)they went to work the next day and spent 4 years getting him elected in 1828.

    [ Parent ]
    Everyone thinks they were the first (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:41:28 PM EST
    When I was working in California, our company constantly was sending us to manager classes. Every manager and VP's, etc. So there was this one Dale Carnegie class with people of all ages and I came of age in the late 60's. One of the questions was: What do you believe your generation started in society. Well, practically EVERYONE is the class of 30 answered Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll. And that was the answer encompassing 5 generations. The very young were startled that someone from the 50's gave that answer and in turn, the older people were startled that the younger people did not know who really loved Bill Hawley, the Beatles, and the pill.

    Welcome to my life (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:22:30 PM EST
    as a history teacher.  Some of what we see is just so marvelous.  But I will refrain from sharing some of my favorites here.  There are some wonderful works done by colleagues, though, that string together sentences from student work to tell the story of this great land of ours as they see it.

    But I gotta say that most of my students are smarter than Bowers about this even before they take my class.  And then, you can bet that they -- well, the ones who earn at least a C -- are smart enough after my class to know to never again write such silliness, aka sweeping overgeneralizations.:-)

    [ Parent ]

    Fine Arts, Design and Wabi Sabi weighing in (4.75 / 4) (#117)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:58:50 PM EST
    I'm affectionate towards representations of history skewing to their time of reproduction and incorporating whatever fads were going on at the time.

    It's one reason I'm a big fan of trashy biblical epics filmed in the 50ies and 60ies. Who knew so many women from the Old Testament wore chariot-stopping red lipstick and torpedo bras?

    It might fly against fundamentalism, but strong foundation garments must count for something.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL (none / 0) (#141)
    by zyx on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:26:06 AM EST
    I remember when I taught history to college students for a couple of years. Once I was talking to kids--this was in Texas!--about the tenant farming system after the Civil war. When I got personal enough to suggest that in the not-too-distant past that some of their family members might not have had indoor plumbing, they looked, to put it in the mildest terms, nonreceptive. Uncomprehending.

    [ Parent ]
    Heck, I lived in a burb in the North (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:38:11 AM EST
    in the '50s, and there was a part of the town from the Civil War era, lovely homes, that still had outhouses.  The upstart newcomer burbanites had to take over the town council to pass an ordinance to require that everyone connect to the municipal sewage system -- by the mid-'60s or so.

    Ancient history, yeh, I know.  Another anecdote: When I have students do a reading on abortion in the 19th century, when it still was legal, some are stunned to find out that, as one or another inevitably will write, abortion was "invented" before it was legalized again in the 1970s.

    Aaarrgghh.  I keep hanging in there for not only the great students but also the pretty good students who just need that light to go on over their heads -- as when it does, due to some reading or another, it's one of the greatest things to see and makes it all worthwhile. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Ignorance of history... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:51:50 AM EST
    ...is as stunning as it is pervasive.

     Judging from the way history is taught in our high schools one would swear sex and drugs were invented in the 60s.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Blame school boards and principals (none / 0) (#146)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:23:55 AM EST
    who don't ensure that teachers hired and/or assigned to teach history actually majored in history.

    A big part of the problem is the change from history to social studies in the '70s or so -- as it means that many history teachers took a couple of history courses.  They majored in some other field.

    Ask about the transcripts of high school history teachers in your school district.  If the answer is that they didn't major in history, do something about it.

    Math teachers have to have studied math, English teachers have to have studied English -- but history teachers?  Nah, anyone can teach history.  And now you see the result.

    [ Parent ]

    That's interesting (none / 0) (#147)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 01:52:43 AM EST
    As an anecdotal matter, the best history teacher I had was in middle school, and he also served as the girls basketball coach.  But he was a history major in undergrad.

     If I ever have children (unlikely) I am bound to become one of the more irritating parents at school board meetings, assuming I am not in a far left district where I have to correct a different kind of imbalance. Any kid who can read with half a brain sees the obvious distortions in the lesson plan.  

     All that being said, my favorite history teacher (who had a wonderful sense of continuity, which is why he was my favorite) also introduced the ancient astronaut theory as legitimate, which, well...he lost me in a big way there.

     But I really like that you introduced them to the state of abortion policy before the 1900s...few were that brave in my hometown.  

    [ Parent ]

    I don't teach at the high school level (none / 0) (#152)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:59:39 AM EST
    so I can do so.  I did train to teach high school history, back when it required a history major.  Much else in my student teaching experience told me to pursue work that would allow me more autonomy.:-)

    [ Parent ]
    Ignorance Keeps Things Fresh (none / 0) (#155)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    In the New World, if that is any consolation.

    [ Parent ]
    Old Hickory (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:43:42 PM EST
    Pres. Andrew Jackson, 1829-37, the People's President.
    Encyclopedia Americana (link):
    Historians continue to debate the significance of Jacksonian democracy. Those of the 19th century emphasized mob vulgarity and the spoils system as its hallmarks, only to yield to Frederick Jackson Turner and his Progressive Era disciples, who saw Jackson and his policies as the reflection of the democratic frontier spirit. Modern study of the phenomenon has stemmed mainly from Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.'s evaluation of the Jacksonian movement as basically an attempt by Eastern wage earners to constrain the business community. In rebuttal Joseph Dorfman and Bray Hammond saw Jacksonians not as working-class enemies of business--as symbolized by the attack on the U.S. Bank--but as would-be entrepreneurs assailing existing vested interests in order to establish their own capitalist fortresses.

    Who could have known?

    One thing for sure (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:46:03 PM EST
    Jackson was a grassroots, activist movement for a Democratic candidate.

    For better or worse, it completely changed politics.

    In effect, it invented populism and grassroots politics.

    [ Parent ]

    In every one of his State of the Union addresses (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:50:12 PM EST
    Pres. Jackson railed & ranted against the Electoral College.  It had been his undoing in 1824 & he could become venomous about the subject.

    Never got anywhere with it, though.

    That populism could never quite over-ride the New England brahmins.  What, a coincidence?

    [ Parent ]

    Mob rule. . . (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:55:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And it invented political campaigns (none / 0) (#34)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:16:01 PM EST
    as we know them, under the guy that Jackson hired (i.e., funded the newspaper of) as an editor to be, essentially, the first PR guy for a presidential campaign and administration: Amos Kendall.

    Campaigns had to change because voters changed with the expansion of the franchise to the great unwashed, dropping the property qualification and allowing the great unwashed to vote -- those bitter guys clinging to their guns in "the first west," part of the country that still is so bitter and clinging today.  Some things never change.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD- not sure if you would define it as grassroots (none / 0) (#124)
    by kenosharick on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:42:30 PM EST
    but there was plenty of activism going on almost from the start. A most excellnt book on the subject: "The Tumultuous Election of 1800" by John Fehrling (not sure if that h is supposed to be there).

    [ Parent ]
    But so few Americans could vote (none / 0) (#131)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 09:59:37 PM EST
    then, when it was only men, white, 21, and owners of property.  Sure, the few Americans who could vote had their fun, as did some wimmen who got to sew the costumes and such.  But until the first expansion of the franchise ushered in Jacksonian Democracy, there really couldn't be widespread engagment in politics and widespread impact on popular American culture.

    With the expansion of the franchise, as much as 30% of Americans could vote.  Wooooo woooo, huh?  Of course, we only have allowed for vote for a majority of Americans for 84 years now (since some states refused to abide by the 19th Amendment in 1920, and it took the Supreme Court to make them do so in time for the 1924 elections).

    Bottom line, of course, is that we remain a very young country, still an experiment -- and it looks like a failing experiment this time around.  Maybe we'll get it right in another century or so.

    [ Parent ]

    Too late on Jackson (none / 0) (#19)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:46:08 PM EST
    I was keystroking this when Big Tent posted #3.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:47:29 PM EST
    very helpful comment.

    A history lesson indeed.

    [ Parent ]

    This is an example (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:55:15 PM EST
    of "High Bowersism".

    Well (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by phat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:18:23 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure McGovern had a lot of grass-roots activist support, too (except the Unions, I suppose).

    phat

    Hey I'm a grassroots activist (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:41:33 PM EST
    can I have a delegate from Michigan?  I deserve as much....

    (i know WAYYYYY off topic but maybe Bowers is gunning for some as well)

    I'm trying to keep my party on the mark. (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:02:22 PM EST
    How would trash talk here about Sen. McCain cause someone to not vote for him?  Or denigrate his party?  Or weaken his campaign?

    The talk about things left, here at Talk Left of all places, is to sort of, kind of, partly arrive at things that I might take to my Democratic Party County meeting.  Or a letter to my miserable ratfink pseudo-Dem representative.  Or my 2 great senators.

    I already know enough about John S. McCain III.

    I enjoy discussions about my party, my candidates, my leadership, whether pro or con.

    From dictionary.com: (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:35:06 PM EST
    grass-roots
    -adjective of, pertaining to, or involving the common people, esp. as contrasted with or separable from an elite: a grass-roots movement for nuclear disarmament.  

    Obama's support doesn't match this definition, as we know he was selected by Axelrod, Senator Kennedy, Sen. Kerry, and others, to compete for the Dem. nomination against Sen. Clinton.  Top down, not grass roots up.    

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [Origin: 1910-15]


    First of all... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:40:04 PM EST
    1. Obama chose to run, and he secured the nomination.  He was not "selected" by anyone to run.  He may have been encouraged, but he made the decision.  This is becoming tiresome.  

    2. There are grassroots techniques, which the Obama campaign employs (frankly, so does every campaign), and then there is a grassroots movement, which almost by definition cannot come about through the organized apparatus of a political party.


    [ Parent ]
    Also, do you dispute the DNC (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:50:37 PM EST
    vocally urged Super Delegates to hurry up and end the primary battle?  And that the RBC made a decision on FL and MI before the televised hearing?

    [ Parent ]
    This is becoming OT (none / 0) (#96)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:21:09 PM EST
    Obama was ahead in delegates, MI and FL or no MI and FL.  It was over.  I think it is time to stop rehashing the primaries just because the candidate you preferred did not win.

     Second, OF COURSE HE HAD SUPPORT.  So did Clinton (she was way ahead in the superdelegate count before it became clear it was going to matter).  Front runners have a tendency to have the support of what you deem "movers and shakers," since, you know, success is contingent on winning.

     Your post bleeds with allusions to conspiracies, though, as if Axelrod was a Sith lord whispering dark agendas into Obama's ear.  The image of a Faustian mirror universe Democratic Party seeking to slay the Clintons may provide some comfort, but it is an illusion.  Obama wanted to run, his efforts were encouraged, he picked great strategists, and the rest is history.  

    [ Parent ]

    And, as you know, neither (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:27:31 PM EST
    candidate had enough pledged delegates to secure the nomination.  I'll spare you the literary spiel and overwrought rhetoric.

    [ Parent ]
    I assume you are acquainted with (none / 0) (#79)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:48:48 PM EST
    the Axelrod interview from maybe a year ago and other sources about who mentored Obama following Clinton's mentoring of him when he first arrived in the U.S. Senate?  Of course, Sen. Obama had to choose whether to throw his hat into ring.  But I seriously doubt he would have done so w/o the support of these movers and shakers.

    [ Parent ]
    Grassroots Presidency Even Possible? (none / 0) (#81)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:50:22 PM EST
    By that definition, is there anyone that runs for president due to a grass roots movement? I would think not. They run due to top down; They run on ego; They run for the added recognition; They run because they want to be president; but I doubt any successful grassroots movement to have a particular person win the presidency has taken hold in over 100 years.

    Even grassroots movements like Ross Perot began with the ego and then found grassroots along the way. Fertilizing the grassroots from the top down if you will.

    [ Parent ]

    Mister Chairman, Mister Chairman, (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:53:20 PM EST
    the XXXX delegates from the Great State of XXXX, proudly nominate Governor XXXX.  

    [ Parent ]
    Guess that is why Bowers added (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:53:56 PM EST
    additional adjectives.  

    [ Parent ]
    sorry, the grassroots progressive votes (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by owenaprhys on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    go to P.U.M.A. The Democrat for a day vote goes to Obama.
    Oh, wait, that day was in February. hey can't be DfaD in November!!!!

    Dems for a Day is what they're counting on (none / 0) (#132)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:04:16 PM EST
    in November -- the Dems who have left the party and become Independents but will still vote for Obama, since they have nowhere else to go, unquote.  Just a different sort of Dems for a Day from the ones he went after in the primary.  But I bet he still can use the same Youtube video and flyers, just crossing out the date and writing in November 4.

    [ Parent ]
    Um, Eugene McCarthy? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:21:55 PM EST
    Don't even need to go back as far as FDR.  It's just a silly ahistorical statement.


    You dare to doubt the Faith? (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:42:54 PM EST
    BTD: "I am sorry, but history did not start in 2004."

    Oh, yes, it did. And by ordaining such, The Eminent One will thus preclude any possibility of our being doomed to repeat it.

    There are several judgements hidden behind (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:16:23 PM EST
    Bowers's statement. I think he might only be talking about the internet chatterers he considers to be activists.

     And then of course, there's George McGovern. . .

    I guess it depends who you talk to? (none / 0) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:16:43 PM EST
    But, I feel you know better on this one BTD.

    Not to mention Andrew Jackson (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:17:35 PM EST


    I was going to be really nasty (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:19:34 PM EST
    and mention  Strom Thurmond.  

    [ Parent ]
    Definate hyperbole (none / 0) (#8)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:23:57 PM EST
    but also a reaction to the effing travesty of the Shrub/McSame agenda.

    He will have a lot of support (none / 0) (#11)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
    that he will listen little to.  

    Still comes down to the old swing states.

    Just another example of Elitism. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:48:31 PM EST
    I find the statement not only historically inaccurate but, without some idea of what Bowers means by:

    grassroots, progressive activist support

    I'm going to assume he's talking about a new kind of activist support that devalues ALL OTHER kinds of activist support.  At his own peril.

    Isn't he talking about the creative class here, and if he is, if you'd like to contrast Obama's activist support with FDR's activist support, I say go further.  I saw this skewering of Bowers does not go far enough.  

    Bowers is still "blinded by the light" and that would be OK if his devotion wasn't so divisive.


    Define Creative Class (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:53:39 PM EST
    for once.

    I keep having a sneaking suspicion this is another one of those rabid right originated terms co-opted for it's faux-populist appeal. Kid of like 'elite".

    [ Parent ]

    Creative Class = "Me and my friends, because (none / 0) (#25)
    by tigercourse on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:54:58 PM EST
    we're wonderful".

    [ Parent ]
    That's what I mean (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:05:03 PM EST
    volvos, Chomsky lectures, blah, blah blah

    Im not wonderful. Except about four times a year (for about 30 secs according to my wife)

    [ Parent ]

    best i can do (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:58:30 PM EST
    the activists who rallied around Obama who exist in contrast to the groups of Dems who supported Clinton in Ohio and Philadelphia.

    Others can be more specific than I.  I understand the term was first coined and defined by the creative class themselves, and that, for a period of time, they wore it with pride, at least, up until the other side of the party started flexing their muscle in the states mentioned above.

    I don't know if the point of my comment was clear though for the group.

    Wasn't FDR's activist support of a different demographic than Obama's activist support?

    [ Parent ]

    Im supporting Obama -- now (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:07:50 PM EST
    but what pretentious a-hole (sorry) would self-describe themselves as a member of "the creative class"?

    Sorry for the o.t

    [ Parent ]

    Bowers would. In fact, he is one of the (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by MarkL on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:26:13 PM EST
    major proponents of the distinction.

    [ Parent ]
    I told myself I wouldn't do this (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:48:35 PM EST
    But I guess I will.

    If you establish a set of priorities, here's how I define it.

    Take two issues.  Job creation and FISA.  For me the creative class is the group of Dems who, if they had to choose, value FISA, rights, constitution, more than job creation.  The role of government is to protect rights and civil liberties.  Economic prosperity is often a function of things that exist beyond the control of government.

    The other class, the Clinton wing supporters, are those who, if they had to choose, value job creation, job security, economic future for their families, more than FISA.  The role of government is to promote economic prosperity.

    Now the reason why this ends up being a confrontational comment is because no one likes to be told they don't care about something when they really do.  EVERYONE DOES CARE ABOUT ALL THESE THINGS.  And that's how that comment is interpretted.  We live in a world where saying one thing is more important than the other is all too often equated with saying you don't care about one of those things at all.  Furthermore, in a perfect world, we should never be forced to choose.  Seriously.  No one out of work trying to provide for their family wants Americans spied on.  No one working to make sure Americans aren't spied on wants people to be in a position wherein they can no longer provide for their families.

    But the world isn't perfect.  So having said all that, this still exists, for me, a sort of demarcation line between the two groups.  

    Just to note, paranthetically, FDR's record on Civil Liberties is good (mostly because the new deal created opportunity for all), actually, but not perfect.

    link

    [ Parent ]

    Absurd (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:51:10 PM EST
    They are not mutually exclusive. That is simply ridiculous.

    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:57:50 PM EST
    They are not mutually exclusive.

    Sorry if my comment gave you the impression that I thought the things I was talking about are mutually exclusive.


    [ Parent ]

    I took your point to be that (none / 0) (#71)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:34:29 PM EST
    they are specifically not mutually exclusive.  Rather, they are priorities, both of which are important, but each group puts a different one at the top.

    Philosophically, I have a hard time choosing (coming from a working class background into what would be categorized as 'creative class', except some segments of the net have given that such a bad name that I want no part of it).

    But on a practical level, an economically healthy society has more people who have time for activism on issues that don't affect their everyday lives.  I care about FISA, yes, but if I was out of a job, or worried about paying my mortgage, or for gas to get to work, I would probably spend not a heck of a lot of time on it.

    [ Parent ]

    I think the phrase you may be (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:16:37 PM EST
    searching for is "excited about."  CC types get really exited about FISA, working class folks get really excited about jobs and economic security.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 06:52:22 PM EST
    Here is a relevant excerpt from the wiki on FDR's civil rights record:

    Roosevelt needed the support of Southern Democrats for his New Deal programs, and therefore decided not to push for anti-lynching legislation that might threaten his ability to pass his highest priority programs.

    Look at the second to last word.

    Now if one believes that statement to be false, then there's nothing else to say.

    But if one believes that statement to be truthful, then it certainly does appear to me that while Civil Liberties and Economic Prosperity are NOT mutually exclusive, they don't exist in a perpetual state of absolute mutual INclusiveness either.

    [ Parent ]

    If you all keep citing wikipedia here (none / 0) (#125)
    by kenosharick on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:49:59 PM EST
    I am going to literally break down in tears.

    [ Parent ]
    FDR & Civil Liberties (none / 0) (#140)
    by WakeLtd on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 12:12:37 AM EST
    I guess if you don't count Executive Order 9066.


    [ Parent ]
    "Creative class" (none / 0) (#38)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:24:54 PM EST
    Coined by Richard Florida, I believe.  I remember because that was part of the thinking behind Granholm's "cool cities" initiative in MI back in the day which involved, inter alia, grants to art museums in East Lansing.  WHY a college town would be the focus of that money is beyond me, but there you have it.

     I don't know that Obama backers welcomed the term.  It also undoubtedly refers to his economic support in the greater Bay Area, hub of so-called "knowledge workers."

     It is just a media meme run amok.

    [ Parent ]

    According to Wiki, just being (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:43:36 PM EST
    creative ain't enough.  Got to also make money from the creativity.  

    [ Parent ]
    Creative Class dismissed (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 08:37:21 PM EST
    If you actually work in the arts, you're a [fill in the profession], or a [-----] artist.

    Creative is an ambient personal qualifier seeking an outlet.

    Anyone who's still in Class, is still in school.

    [ Parent ]

    On a macro level, the creative class (none / 0) (#115)
    by Rojas on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 07:51:42 PM EST
    is the sum of what's left when you take a company, like Dephi Automotive for example, and outsource all the production activities to low wage countries.


    [ Parent ]
    Kind (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 04:54:07 PM EST


    After the week Obama had (none / 0) (#32)
    by mmc9431 on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:09:46 PM EST
    Progressive activists should be taking a second look at their unconditional support. Unfortunately they won't.

    Good grief BTD! (none / 0) (#35)
    by john horse on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:17:18 PM EST
    Tell me whats wrong with this picture.

    There are two candidates running for President, John McCain and Barak Obama.  McCain wants to continue President Bush's domestic and foreign policies, including the Iraq war.  Obama wants to change these policies.    

    Now scan the current posts on TL and answer these questions.

    How many of the current posts on TL are critical of McCain?  Not a single one.  

    How many of the current posts on TL are critical of Obama?  A bunch.  

    Now I'm not saying that Obama is above criticism or that liberals or leftists should uncritically support Obama.  For example, Obama was certainly deserving of the criticism he received in the telecom issue.  Nor am I telling TL how to run your blog.  

    What I am suggesting is that you might keep in mind, every once in a while, that being uncritical of McCain and constantly critical of Obama may just result in 4 more years of Bush with a McCain election.  

    Actually, it does sound like you are (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by MarkL on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:27:07 PM EST
    telling TL how to run the blog.
    Good luck with that!

    [ Parent ]
    It's the hypocrisy (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by blogtopus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 05:30:45 PM EST
    One of these candidates rose to power on a parade float of Change, Hope, and Different politics. Hint: It was pulled by Ponies.

    And a LOT of people who are sad and disappointed now bought into that old chestnut hook, line, and sinker.

    AGAIN, WITH FEELING: Showing how horrible McCain is will not convince a lot of people to vote for Obama; it will just tell them to not bother in the first place.

    [ Parent ]