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Seeing The Light Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:34:01 PM EST
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While I think very little of the dkos diary Jeralyn admired, I think this one is worth considering. It is a shame that it took blatant sexism for the diarist to see the problem, but it is great that he now see the problem.

Post Script - Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I thought the diary was quite admirable. I salute prose for it.

Our friend Ben Masel has a good action diary on FISA.

This is an Open Thread.

< Flexible | A Thoughtful Look at the Death Penalty >

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    Seeing The Light Open Thread | 214 comments (214 topical)
    I'm Baffled (5.00 / 16) (#1)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:43:56 PM EST
    Hundreds of comments praising the diarist on a site that trashed Hillary worse than any other, except Republican sites.

    Nice to know he gets it.  The barn door is fixed.  Now, where are those horses?

    Hollow (5.00 / 10) (#21)
    by Athena on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:34:04 PM EST
    How utterly remarkable to "see" sexism after piling on in the savage sexist romp with the Orange mob.  What part of denigration, snickery, mockery and dismissal did you not understand?

    How utterly redeeming.  How utterly BS.

    [ Parent ]

    I was thinking the same thing in the (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Radiowalla on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:43:33 PM EST
    back of my mind when I read the diary.  But I stuffed a sock in it and thanked the diarist for his forthrightness.

    He did seem sincere and that's pretty rare these days.

    [ Parent ]

    And it was so "truly healing" for him (5.00 / 8) (#97)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:02:29 PM EST
    to have this epiphany now.  How nice for him.

    And this is after years of training as a counselor -- exactly the sort that Obama says is where our daughters ought to seek advice about abortions?  Thanks, no, the seminary doesn't seem to be doing much of a job in gender sensitivity training, so such a minister might be the absolutely worse person to ask for advice in such a gendered situation.

    The piece became increasingly unpalatable as I went along, but that last "update" line just was the worst.  

    [ Parent ]

    I created a new account, just to respond to... (3.00 / 7) (#135)
    by prose on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:51:33 PM EST
    your unfair personal attacks.  

    My "epiphany" was not about the sexism, but about the effect of it.  What had seemed to me to be petty, in the political world and on our trip, has genuine impact.  That is what I learned.  That many at DKos and MYDD (especially those like sricki and canadiangal) were willing to accept my apology and understand my realization was indeed healing for me.  

    Your ongoing mean-spiritedness is much more what I anticipated.

    As to my being a "man of the cloth" as you put it, I am not perfect.  No counseling class taught me how to handle complicated issues regarding gender in public or private discourse.  You seem to assume that I have made derogatory comments about Hillary, and I assure you that any jokes I made were no stronger than statements made here regularly about Obama.  My greatest sin, as I understand it, was that I did so little to recognize the genuine pain the media's comments could cause.  

    If you choose to make this all about Hillary and to drag me over the coals, go ahead.  Just know that the predominant response that I have gotten from women of all political perspectives and from Hillary supporters in particular has been empathy and support.  You may consider asking yourself why you are still so unable to forgive or seek unity.

    [ Parent ]

    you addressed your audience (5.00 / 7) (#157)
    by boredmpa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:14:28 PM EST
    and the parent poster addressed this audience.  Cream City at least understands the context of the
    conversation and clearly you do not.

    You came here looking to fight, not to respond to personal attacks, which are largely non-existent.  You are making this highly personal, especially with your post here.  Like it or not, this isn't about you anymore, it's about you as an example of sexism and awareness.  Welcome to blogging. Welcome to politics.

    And your coming here with assumptions doesn't help that example.  I mean: "your ongoing mean-spiritedness is much more what I anticipated"  doesn't exactly plead your case.  Did you come here looking to rant at people that disagree with your understanding of sexism?  

    [ Parent ]

    No... (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by prose on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:17:48 PM EST
    I came here because someone told me it was linked here.  And I found what I had expected at MYDD.  Anger.  What was healing to me at MYDD was the forgiveness of people I had hurt.  I am not here to start anything.  I will speak up for myself though when my professional ability and character are questioned.

    [ Parent ]
    You know what might help (5.00 / 5) (#166)
    by pie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:22:38 PM EST
    in the future?

    A counseling class that taught you how to handle complicated issues regarding gender.  I'm frankly surprised it wasn't included in your education.

    Wonder why?

    [ Parent ]

    Okay, Prose (5.00 / 4) (#187)
    by caseyOR on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:45:18 PM EST
    You had an epiphany. You were forced to confront the damage your sexism caused. Now, what are you going to do? To what use are you going to put this newfound knowledge and insight? Will you start speaking out against sexism and misogyny wherever you may see it? Will you incorporate this new information into your pastoral duties? Will you be confronting members of your congregation and your fellow clergy when they exhibit sexism?

     I believe you said you were a youth pastor. So, are you now teaching the young men and women with whom you interact to recognize and oppose sexism in all its forms, wherever they may find it? Will the young men with whom you work learn from you about the incredible male privilege they enjoy, and will you help them to understand why that male privilege is something they should fight against?

    If these things are the result of your new awareness of the evils of sexism, then you will be well on the way to earning the forgiveness you seek.

    [ Parent ]

    your own post (4.62 / 8) (#180)
    by boredmpa on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:36:35 PM EST
    states that you had expectations here and are looking for forgiveness.  You have an agenda.

    At to your professional ability and character, I'm happy you're more aware of sexism, but you are here, on this board, mixing ministerial rhetoric and political behavior by demanding forgiveness from others.  That is inappropriate and digging a hole.

    And just like any issue that you're learning about or trying to process with, seeking the right audience for growth is essential.  There are certain things that ministers only discuss with other ministers, and other things that feminists only discuss with card carrying feminists.  In all due respect, I'd suggest that this blog isn't the best place to post about a newish understanding of sexism when you have an agenda you're pushing.  

    [ Parent ]

    You misunderstood... (3.50 / 2) (#184)
    by prose on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:42:58 PM EST
    I said I expected anger at MYDD.  I didn't find it there.  Instead I found forgiveness.  I found anger here.  I came here excited that BTD had linked to my post and hoping to find some common ground with folks here as I did at MYDD.

    I did find some of that.  But I also found Cream saying that I had scarred my students and questioning my integrity.  I chose to speak up about that.  I have maintained a posture of listening at other sites (like MYDD where I am really plugged in).  I only came here to voice my objection to the content and tone of Cream City's comments about me.  

    I'm probably taking all of this too personally, however.  I'm not used to the attention that comes with this sort of thing.  I didn't come here to argue, just to state my concern about Cream's comment.  I don't demand your forgiveness, and I didn't come expecting your anger.  My only agenda has been to raise an objection to what I viewed as a series of personal attacks against me (at a site that I used to frequent).

    [ Parent ]

    Making it about you, you, you (4.88 / 9) (#200)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:10:10 PM EST
    continues to not impress.  

    So you got all excited about the attention, and you expected more forgiveness, since you didn't expect anger here, but instead -- you got anger here, which you expected there, where it was okay, but it was not okay here.   So  I do not measure up to your expectations because you don't find forgiveness from me, and that really hurts your feelings.  And to top it all, you don't like my "tone" -- hmm, who infamously used that term in this campaign? -- in reply to my not liking yours.  

    But gosh, you're so good as to not make demands of me.  Jeesh.  This is a classic.  

    Btw, it's not personal.  I don't know you, you don't know me.  After all, your joining in jokes about women were not personal about me, just because I happen to be a woman.  So none of my comment was about you, just because you happen to be a commenter.

    [ Parent ]

    Blind cleric (4.00 / 7) (#171)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:26:22 PM EST
    You saw and learned nothing until it had a personal effect on you, through your own young charges.  That's hardly an epiphany and not worthy of praise.  Go away and live your life better in the future for your reward.
     

    [ Parent ]
    Leave Prose Alone (4.66 / 12) (#214)
    by MonaL on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:25:21 PM EST
    He's apologized, accept it or don't.  At least it's a step in the right direction for someone.

    Prose:  glad you achieved your epiphany, unfortunately it was too late for Hillary Clinton.  The frustration and anger your young charges felt is nothing compared to what we Hillary supporters have felt for quite some time.  We thought we were part of a community that understood the ugliness and hurtfulness of sexism.  We thought only republicans played that way.  The realization that that ugliness was coming from our own side really really bites. Old wounds, etc.

    [ Parent ]

    You many consider asking yourself why (5.00 / 10) (#185)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:43:10 PM EST
    you think forgiveness must come about on your timetable.

    An automatic response of forgiveness has as much worth as an apology that spends more time justifying the initial action than admitting the wrongdoing.

    I, for one, will save my empathy and support for those who were harmed by the the nastiness that was a daily occurrence in the media and on Dkos. I don't think you merit any empathy or support as you were not the injured party. It is nice that you made a personal discovery but not exactly praiseworthy that you had to have an "epiphany" to recognize what was there for all who wished to see.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course it is (4.85 / 7) (#152)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:11:15 PM EST
    You posted on DKos - which ran off the vast majority of the hardcore Hillary supporters with the sort of vile commentary you didn't have a problem with until your little epiphany.

    My heart freakin' bleeds for you, having to suffer our mean-spiritedness.  I've been called every name in the book, along with a sh!tload of names I'd never even thought of before, for months on end.  So so sorry I can't muster up forgiveness on your schedule.

    [ Parent ]

    I cross-posted at DKos (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by prose on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:16:06 PM EST
    My original post was at MYDD.  MYDD was a very pro-Hillary site and my predominant blog community.  I posted in the context of on-going debates about sexism there.  Someone suggested that it'd be good for DKos'ers to hear what I had to say, so I posted it there as well.  It just happens that BTD linked to the cross-post and not the original.

    As for your lack of forgiveness, you can withhold that if you'd like.  But grudges are good for no one.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, either are sexist jokes, (5.00 / 6) (#183)
    by pie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:39:30 PM EST
    but you didn't always believe that, did you?

    Healing and forgiveness aren't going to happen overnight; in some cases it may take a very long time.

    Glad you saw the light.

    Now go forth and do some good with your newfound knowledge.


    [ Parent ]

    Here's a clue (4.63 / 11) (#191)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:54:18 PM EST
    People who make true apologies don't pout when they aren't accepted, because those people understand that they're the ones who are wrong.  They understand that the people they hurt will come to forgiveness in their own time, or not at all, and in any case, bearing the lack of forgiveness is part of the penance for wrongdoing.

    Coming here to whine at those meanie Clinton supporters who don't immediately cry "Oh, thank you, kind sir" tells me that you're not making an apology, you're putting on a display of righteousness, now when there's conveniently no cost to you for doing so.  Forgive me if I am unimpressed.

    [ Parent ]

    That is not (2.00 / 1) (#217)
    by MonaL on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:27:53 PM EST
    what he is doing, imo.  He's explained himself.  Leave him be.

    [ Parent ]
    Pastor Reverend (4.60 / 10) (#202)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:11:30 PM EST
    I am amazed at your disconnect in the difference between asking forgiveness and receiving it. The intent of making amends is to heal the person who was harmed, not make the one guilty of bringing pain and harm feel better about what he did.

    If you've been educated in theology, how can you not know that?

    When you ask for forgiveness, you must be prepared to be denied. And, you must try again to ask the injured party what you need to do to gain their forgiveness.

    Besides, you didn't ask it of the TLers and you only came over here to see if you were given guilded praise for your prose.


    [ Parent ]

    I read your post at DK (4.50 / 2) (#188)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:45:24 PM EST
    and wrote to thank you for it. I think it was sincere. You apologized and I appreciate it.

    I was one of the people who left that site because it was so painful to be abused verbally for supporting Hillary, for being a woman over 45. It was really a terrible experience.

    I hope you remember the women you wrote about.

    M

    [ Parent ]

    Pathetic. And why in the world (4.22 / 9) (#148)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:04:51 PM EST
    would you apologize to DKos and think that an acceptance of an apology from those at that awful place, the epitome of sexist and misogynist attacks,  has any meaning at all?

    And you point again to media, after you admit that you joined in sexist jokes.  You clearly have a lot to ask yourself, still.

    As for forgiveness, it has not been asked from me.  You certainly aren't asking for it here.  And as for seeking unity, your candidate has not asked me for that yet, either.  We'll see if he knows how.  You do not.

    [ Parent ]

    I mostly wrote... (none / 0) (#164)
    by prose on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:19:00 PM EST
    that diary for the MYDD community.  In that context it makes a lot of sense for me to apologize.  It was cross-posted at DKos at the request of some from MYDD (where it is still on the rec list, if you'd like to see the comments there).

    [ Parent ]
    And defending the sexism (5.00 / 13) (#25)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:45:11 PM EST
    I actually posted a few comments. It's probably a waste of pixels. The people on that site are so tied up with hating Clinton that they can't see that sexist attacks on her are NOT acceptable. As far as they are concerned, it was "just" attacking Clinton, and no more than she deserved. Now I'm getting all angry again.

    [ Parent ]
    And, as usual. (5.00 / 4) (#165)
    by pie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:19:04 PM EST
    a few troublemakers have to inject charges of racism into the mix to try to diffuse the sexism.

    How perfectly predictable and pathetic.

    Deep, deep holes mean trouble in November.

    [ Parent ]

    Pattern and Practice (none / 0) (#70)
    by santarita on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:12:37 PM EST
    The "progressive" blog of record has been full of sexist language directed at any female political figure that does not share the same philosophy or does something contrary to the wishes of the mob.  The use of crude sexist language when talking about Hillary, Nancy Pelosi, Condi Rice, Ann Coulter, etc. is condoned.  

    [ Parent ]
    And sexism and misogyny (4.25 / 4) (#208)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:19:17 PM EST
    have been condoned at that site for a long time.  Can we in the "women's studies set" say "pie fight"?  Can we say support Casey, the anti-abortion candidate?  Can we say attack NARAL for not doing so -- although I imagine that NARAL is fine with Markos now.

    I foolishly thought, though, that Markos meant what he said about supporting Dems, sufficiently for him to get past a Dem candidate's gender.  He cannot do so, so he encouraged the most appalling display of hate speech for months, to the point that it contributed astronomically to the divisiveness among the Dems today.

    If I were a grassy-knoller, I'd see this as the result of a long-term plot to plant allegedly former Republicans in our liberal midst. . . .  It would make a great movie about a bunch of guys -- let's call them "gatecrashers"! -- who get on a bunch of computers . . . and, well, you know the rest.

    [ Parent ]

    Kos, Arianna, Sully (5.00 / 5) (#222)
    by MonaL on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:32:04 PM EST
    all former or current republicans... hmmm

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (4.93 / 15) (#15)
    by Democratic Cat on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:16:07 PM EST
    I'm glad some of them get it. But it is a little too late for me to forgive. I'm sure they will use their newfound sensitivity to come to MO's defense. And they should. I will too. But I'm still not voting for their guy.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:19:43 PM EST
    That's gonna bug me.

    Of course they're going to cry sexism when Michelle is attacked.

    [ Parent ]

    It bugs me that you don't cry sexism when she is (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by samtaylor2 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:44:48 PM EST
    Attacked. Yes I know your come back, she didn't support Hillary.  She isn't supposed to support Hillary, she is married to Obama.  

    [ Parent ]
    I think many people feel that (5.00 / 11) (#27)
    by derridog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:52:37 PM EST
    what goes around comes around. Where were Obama and Michelle when Hillary and her female supporters were on the receiving end of the most vile and disgusting misogyny I've ever experienced in my life?  Did they speak up? Please tell me when?

    It's just too convenient that now that Hlllary is out of the race that the MSM and Daily Kos suddenly discover that there was sexism  used against her. What news!!!  I'm afraid I remember too well being driven off the kos site by vicious attacks on the part of those now making nice.

    Sorry about that, but I'm not going to concern myself about Michelle's problems.  But don't worry. I'm sure those guys on the lefty blogs will be sure to speak up on her behalf.

    [ Parent ]

    And some of the nastiest (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by vigkat on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:37:17 PM EST
    sexist attacks were launched by women, which I found particularly noxious.  I didn't see any comments in the linked diary noting that fact.  

    [ Parent ]
    So all I have to do then (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:55:39 PM EST
    Is marry Hillary and then I don't have to be held accountable for not speaking out against sexist attacks on Michelle, is that it?

    Actually, that wasn't going to be my comeback.

    I don't think what attacks I've seen on Michelle are of a sexist nature simply because she doesn't aspire to the same kinds of things Clinton did.


    [ Parent ]

    I guess (2.00 / 4) (#44)
    by samtaylor2 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:18:20 PM EST
    The Clinton's are in the same boat.  If they had called out all the racism there wouldn't be people calling them racist.  Maybe this is why black and white don't see eye to eye so much.  

    [ Parent ]
    What racism? (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:33:57 PM EST
    Of course racism exists, but I remember Spy magazine covers going back to 1992, and I'd like to know if you think Obama has been treated as unfairly?

    I can't bring up hypothetical examples of things I think would be equivalent because Jeralyn doesn't like that.

    [ Parent ]

    All the racism? (4.66 / 9) (#48)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:27:01 PM EST
    Seriously, what "all the racism"?  The racism that we all know is there is well undercover and not spoken publicly.  YOu will have to enlighten me, at least, on what Hillary and her supporters said about Obama that was racist.

    The misogyny against Hillary, by contrast, was frank and open and omnipresent.


    [ Parent ]

    If she wants to avoid (5.00 / 9) (#32)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:59:48 PM EST
    sexism for herself, she needs to defend ALL women under attack BECAUSE she's Obama's wife and he wants to be president.

    [ Parent ]
    She/Obama/They (5.00 / 10) (#34)
    by JimWash08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:01:04 PM EST
    did not have to specifically mention Hillary or her lady supporters to defend them and push back against the sexist commentary.

    He, having a gift if making speeches, could have given a short and swift message saying neither he nor his wife appreciate it, just as no one likes racism.

    A simple show of effort to say, "Hey, please stop that" would and could have gone a long way to making the road towards Unityville less bumpy.

    [ Parent ]

    As parents of two daughters themselves (4.60 / 10) (#102)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:07:20 PM EST
    their perfect moment to speak up was the one time, the one time, that the Clintons spoke out against the media crap -- when they were called pimps and thus their daughter Chelsea was called a whore.

    I thought then that it was a political opportunity for the Obamas to stand by them, as parents -- and fully expected that they would do so not only as a golden political moment but because I still thought that they were nice people.

    But nothing, nada, on that -- and even worse from them, which meant that the only opportunity they saw was to join in the pile-on without criticism for doing so, either.  Nope, not nice people.  And so much both Obamas have said and done since just reaffirm that assessment.  So what, they're pols.  Fine.  But they decidedly are not anything new in politics, which is full of nasty people.

    [ Parent ]

    Why would they do that (4.57 / 7) (#47)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:24:27 PM EST
    when they were benefiting from it?

    [ Parent ]
    If attacks are owing to sexism, then (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:59:31 PM EST
    they will be denounced.  But so far, I haven't heard of any attacks on Michelle Obama owing to sexism.

    Other attacks, sure -- after all, she said, and said twice in one day, that line about not being proud of her country (that treated a Princeton and Yale grad pretty darn well, all in all).  And there's nothing wrong with criticizing that comment, because it was not based on sexism.  You do see that, I hope.

    Just as there was nothing wrong with Clinton raising questions about the inexperience of, well, a very inexperienced newbie to the Senate.  And just as there was nothing wrong with him raising questions about Clinton's stands on issues.  That's politics.

    Except, of course, periodically when he's down because he's only likeable enough, and maybe he sees himself being treated like dirt on a shoulder and dogshi*t on a shoe, if that brings out his claws, catty thing that he is.  Appropriate?

    [ Parent ]

    When she is attacked in a sexist way... (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:42:41 PM EST
    ...a lot of us do cry sexism. But she has not been attacked very much in sexist ways. The biggest criticism levelled at her was over her comments on pride in her nation, and that wasn't even remotely sexist. So far, Michelle Obama has avoided being "the kind of woman" who subjects herself to sexist smears.  She wears skirts most of the time and makes sure to be home to tuck in her daughter every night (and heavily publicizes the fact). She has original recipes ready for publication. She stands by her husband loyally and doesn't put her own needs ahead of his. What is there to criticize?

    [ Parent ]
    I've defended her on this very blog (5.00 / 6) (#182)
    by Democratic Cat on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:39:24 PM EST
    I've defended her here and elsewhere when people have talked about her being too strong--code for bi**h, IMO.I will defend her against such charges not because I support Sen. Obama, but because those kind of remarks hurt all women.They are wrong and deserve our condemnation. I wish MO saw things the same way.

    I'm not a great fan of Laura Bush, but I remember when she stood up for Teresa Heinz during the 2004 campaign when Heinz was being criticized for some remark and Mrs. Bush said something like it was a pressure cooker and people were just waiting to pounce on everything you said. It was the right thing to say, and I liked her a lot more after that.

    [ Parent ]

    I'll call out sexism... (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:02:15 PM EST
    if I see it used against Michelle. In a heartbeat.

    Have they pulled it on her yet? Since Hillary has closed down shop, I honestly haven't been following as much as I used to.

    Just need a little break.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama crying sexism now (5.00 / 4) (#218)
    by caseyOR on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:29:18 PM EST
    All sexism, regardless of the target, must be called out and condemned. When I hear sexism directed at Michelle I will call it out. However, by refusing to take a stand against the sexism and misogyny directed at Hillary and her supporters Barack has created a situation where it will be very hard to get folks to listen when the inevitable attacks on Michelle start.

    By allowing to stand unchallenged the idea that "it's not sexism about Hillary if she really is a b'%$ch," Barack and his supporters leave Michelle open to the same narrative.

    [ Parent ]

    It doesn't matter who she's married to (4.60 / 10) (#61)
    by echinopsia on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:58:57 PM EST
    You don't condone sexism no matter who it is. You don't condone racism or any form of bigotry, no matter who it is.

    Michelle and Barack Obama condoned sexism because it benefited them. They decry racism only when it benefits them.

    They are hypocrites.

    [ Parent ]

    The horses are hither and yon....and (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    trying to be strong-armed into the obama corral...many of the horses have dug in and will not go.

    Yes. I certainly won't go there. Nor (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by derridog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:54:58 PM EST
    will I visit Kos for any reason anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay. (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by pie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:46:16 PM EST
    That made me get teary-eyed.

    Reason, good sense and compassion for and understanding of another human being appear.  It feels like seeing the sun after forty days and nights of rain.

    Are you talking about (5.00 / 2) (#209)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:20:12 PM EST
    prose's post at Kos and MyDD?

    If you are, he sort of blew it to pieces with his decision to demand everyone accept his apology over here despite the fact he didn't address his apology to the TLers.


    [ Parent ]

    Trying to accept it. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:53:20 PM EST
    Having a hard time.

    Maybe I am just not feeling very forgiving today, but perhaps the diarist should apologize to the COUNTLESS folks who brought up the blatant sexism and were mocked? But I guess that won't happen because he admits to keeping silent.

    So he knew about the blatant sexism against HRC, kept silent by his own admission, and was recently awakened to something he knew about?

    Sorry, I am voting for his preferred candidate this fall, but can't buy in to that diary or apology.  

    Well, he doesn't need to appeal to you then. He's (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by derridog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:58:05 PM EST
    already got you.   As for me, nothing he could say would cause me to vote for Obama.  I don't know anyone who's on the fence. So, he might as well just not bother. The time to have spoken up against sexism has passed. They're probably just doing it now so they can attack people who criticize Michelle.

    Sorry to be so cynical. I can't imagine how I got that way.

    [ Parent ]

    He certainly doesn't have me. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:01:01 PM EST
    But I can't allow McCain to get his fingers around me and my country.

    I certainly won't forgive and forget because I cannot forgive and forget.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know if you remember this, but before (4.47 / 17) (#22)
    by derridog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:41:24 PM EST
    McCain went into his crazed love affair with George W. Bush and the 100 year war, Democrats wanted him to be John Kerry's running mate. And, apparently, even John Kerry wanted that.  One thing about McCain is that he has a demonstrated history of working with Democrats on issues like campaign finance reform and of voting against vile bills like the 2005 energy tax giveaway to the oil companies, that Obama voted for (but neither McCain nor Hillary did).

    I'm not saying I want McCain. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm a lifelong Democrat and have NEVER voted for a Republican in my life. I couldn't stand Kerry but nevertheless I  sent him money and spent countless hours driving around the backwoods here in Appalachia where I live (and teach college) canvassing and trying to talk people into voting for him.

    But I draw the line at Obama. He has a very bad history of not standing up for things that he says he is for.  He has a very bad history of being a go along to get along politician in Chicago who isn't very concerned with where his money comes from or who is hurt by his getting it (Pension funds, subpar housing anyone?).

    I've been researching this for almost six months.  I was not originally a Hillary supporter and briefly gave money to Obama, thinking him a breath of fresh air.  But I quickly became disillusioned and went to Edwards. I would have been happy with Dodd or Biden and reluctantly turned to Hillary only after she was the last person standing that I felt I could vote for.  However, I came to admire her and I believe (cause I'm old and I remember it clearly) that another Clinton administration would be a good thing (in spite of NAFTA, which I didn't support at the time and still don't).

    However, it's not about Hillary for me now. It's about keeping this unqualified, unsavory, immature, uninformed guy from becoming our President.  I think he will continue to stab all progressives in the back.   When he used accusations of racism against the Clintons to take away the black vote, I knew he would stop at nothing. When he denounced universal one-payer health care (that he supported when running for the Senate until he no longer supported it when running for President), I began to suspect he stood for nothing.  When he ran "Harry and Louise" ads, that mimicked the ads that the drug companies used in the 90s to demonize Hillary's health care plan, I knew he was planning to sell us down the river on health care. When he said he didn't see anything wrong with voting for Justice Roberts for the Supreme Court based on mere "ideology," and that the only reason he didn't do it was because he wanted to run for President, I saw a man with no principles and who would not be worried about Roe vs. Wade or any other possibly "ideological" reason when he had his turn to make SC appointments.

    As far as I'm concerned, Obama is worse than McCain. McCain has a lot of problems. No kidding. But these are the choices we now have -either that or not voting for President and voting downticket or voting for Nader or Cynthia McKinney.

    If you had asked me a year ago if I would ever have taken such a position, I would have been appalled.  If you had asked me if I would ever vote for a Republican, I would have said absolutely no way.

    But I think McCain is the lesser of two evils.

    For other views on this you should check out the Blackagendareport, Cynthia Pringle (google her) and Rosemary Regello of the San Francisco  cityedition.com

    You will find some compelling reasons not to vote for Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    If you truly feel... (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:53:58 PM EST
    you can't vote for Obama and prefer McCain, that's fine. I truly disagree but that's your right

    However,the McCain of 2004 wouldn't recognize this John in 2008. Not for a moment.

    [ Parent ]

    A lot of people have turned out to be (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:20:34 PM EST
    quite different from what they seemed, not so long ago.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe McCain's (4.83 / 6) (#224)
    by MonaL on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:34:48 PM EST
    just pandering to his base in order to get elected, but has a secret plan to move to the middle after he's the Pres.  Sound familiar?

    [ Parent ]
    Riveting Post (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:55:19 PM EST
    Thank you.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with you completely (4.40 / 5) (#58)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:53:24 PM EST
    and will vote the same.  This time it's really a vote for country over party.

    [ Parent ]
    I Respect (5.00 / 13) (#20)
    by JimWash08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:32:22 PM EST
    Your right, and everyone else's right to vote or not vote for whomever they choose. But, you say:
    Sorry, I am voting for his preferred candidate this fall, but can't buy in to that diary or apology.
    It is just my view that by voting for someone or some cause, you are effectively endorsing their words, behaviors, actions and those of their supporters.

    My reason for not voting for Obama (or McCain for that matter) is my vote tells them I am forgiving them for their words, behaviors and actions and those of their supporters, and endorsing them.

    Speaking for me only, I am not voting for Obama because I do not accept or endorse him for:
    (1) his paper-thin resume;
    (2) his questionable voting record;
    (3) his flip-flopping on several important issues I care about;
    (4) his comments about white-working class;
    (5) his relationship with divisive folk;
    (6) his non-existent efforts to stop the hateful speech against Hillary Clinton, and his own childish behaviors during his rallies;
    ad finally,
    (7) his extremely disrespectful insinuations that the Bill Clinton Presidency was one riddled with faults and misjudged measures that he would either eliminate, correct or never make himself because he's too good to do that.

    No, just because he calls himself a Democrat, and says he is not running for a third Bush term does not mean I'd fall in line and vote for him.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama was always my... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:48:35 PM EST
    second choice. McCain among my last choices (and a choice I'd never make anyway).

    Obama, Hillary and myself are closer on issues than I am with McCain.

    With my vote, I am endorsing Obama as the one who can do the job best of my current choices. My vote certainly does not endorse anyone smoking Marlboro Reds anymore than it does dissing the Clintons or the other issues you brought up. If I could vote for Hillary this November, it doesn't mean I endorse a gas tax holiday as she did.

    Simply, if Hillary can get behind him, I can.  What I can't do is throw my arms around the Orange Julius folks, and accept a McCain presidency.

    Maybe my vote is less for Obama than it is against McCain. Whatever, I can live with that. Obama is getting it anyway, as he is getting the Clintons' votes.

    [ Parent ]

    I wish I could figure out what Obama's (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:03:53 PM EST
    stand is on the issues. It seems he doesn't even know what they are. For that reason, I can't say I share his views.


    [ Parent ]
    Sure, you share his views (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:23:51 PM EST
    although maybe you meant his views a few weeks ago?  I mean, Obama has had so many flipflops now that you must share some of his views, former if not current.

    But if not, hang in there -- he'll change his views again, so that you'll have a shot at sharing them at some point or t'other.

    [ Parent ]

    Indeed....at some point during the campaign (none / 0) (#204)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:16:27 PM EST
    every voter will have the opportunity to state that they share Obama's view on the issues that matter most to them :)

    [ Parent ]
    No one has done more for diversity (5.00 / 7) (#211)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:21:28 PM EST
    of viewpoints on the issues than Obama.  I say, no one. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Hah! (none / 0) (#225)
    by MonaL on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:37:12 PM EST
    very funny

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    There has been no allocution.

    In law, it is generally meant to state specifically and in detail what one did and for what reason, often in relation to commission of a crime.

    It reminds me of Edwards' and Kerry's apologies.

    There is no allocution.

    [ Parent ]

    Had To Look It Up (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:10:00 PM EST
    allocution
    n.   A formal and authoritative speech; an address.

    Something on the order of "this sexism on the part of the media and even my own supporters is wrong!"

    Instead of standing on the podium decrying the the misogyny, Obama and his supporters worked the crowd, gathering votes while they could.

    No...no allocution at all.  


    [ Parent ]

    Aha, that's the term I was trying (4.00 / 3) (#212)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:22:56 PM EST
    to think of -- and me a longtime Law and Order fan.  That's my problem with the pastor making it a parable.  Thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    What is this (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Lahdee on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:56:40 PM EST
    mea cupla day at the great orange satin. Thank goodness for Ben Masel and Krago X and mcjoan.

    Ha. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:13:17 PM EST
    That crappy Chicago song "Hard for Me to Say I'm Sorry" should play every time someone opens up that Kos diary.

    [ Parent ]
    It all gives me the distinction impression (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 04:59:00 PM EST
    They knew it was wrong while it was going on.

    It is hilarious to read in print & pixels (5.00 / 8) (#14)
    by wurman on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
    the statements of racists, sexists, & other bigots who pretend to have been obtusely un-aware of their bigotry during the practice of it.  The proof of that pudding was in the "sweetie" comment; apologies afterward don't matter; it's the source, the origin of the opinion or attitude or behavior & as Edgar 08 implies, it would be helpful to understand the background to that & whether it will change.

    Maybe not.

    My experience, in real life, is that each & every bigoted jerk is fully aware & revels in it; it's a source of bragging.  That's usually the point, after all, to make oneself appear to be bigger or better by belittling the "other."

    Now, I might be able to help remove that mote from your eye if I could just get the beam out of mine.

    [ Parent ]

    Remember the old adage (5.00 / 3) (#226)
    by blogtopus on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:38:48 PM EST
    Easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

    "I'm sorry I hit you baby; I'll never do it again! I'm a changed man!"

    I really don't believe it; not for a second. I don't doubt the diarist is sincere, so I won't attack his effort, but I don't think he represents even .01% of Dkos readership.

    This will happen again if the same circumstances arise.

    Nice summation of the primary season.

    [ Parent ]

    Since this is an open thread (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:00:24 PM EST
    I'm on my way into the city to see Ken Howard in "According to Tip". Decided my politics this evening needs to come with a laugh or two.  I wonder how this play will play in Tip's hometown?

    Ah, that's the hometown of some family (none / 0) (#124)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:37:11 PM EST
    of mine, and my gramps even knew Tip.  And if that wacky Irish side of the family is a tipoff, the town will like it fine.  How I wish my gramps was still here to see it -- so that I could see him doff his Irish newsboy's cap he wore everywhere, take the corncob pipe (where did he still find them?!) from out of his mouth, so that he could double over in his great guffaw at some of the lines Tip said.

    Btw, with a newsboy cap and a corncob pipe for Tip, they could have been twins.  That's how they met.  Long story. . . .

    [ Parent ]

    Blatant sexism against Hillary ruled for months (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Maribelle on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 05:18:36 PM EST
    It is a shame that it took blatant sexism for the diarist to see the problem

    I don't believe it was the 'blatant sexism' that made him realize anything - - for it was blatant against Hillary many times over.  

    Perhaps it was merely seeing first hand and up close the pain in the eyes of the young ones that his 'blatant sexism' caused that hit him over the head like a ton of bricks.  But he can rest assured that those hurt eyes he looked into will be much tougher the next time around, thanks to him.    

     

    And in those eyes, there will be (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:47:16 PM EST
    distrust.  Sadder but wiser girls now, as the song goes.

    But that diarist will not see the distrust, I bet.  After all, the experience of apologizing -- and on DKos, yet, so widely read by those he joyously joined in harming -- has "truly healed" him.  

    The guy is thinking of parables of forgiveness, I would bet, but they don't apply.  Heck, he's healed now, anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess I just... (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:01:34 PM EST
    question the sincerity since he said he was awakened to how sexism is so hurtful through his working experience but then said he knew of it all along in regards to Hillary but kept silent.

    That's how I read it anyway.

    Haven't you ever had an "aha" moment? (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:19:53 PM EST
    A moment when things clicked into place and you realized that you knew something and that you knew it all along, but you had never put together all of the pieces so it made sense? I think that we all know about sexism and sort of passively accept it like Pelosi said - she knows it exists, but she just doesn't think about it. We all see sexism, we just don't take it seriously. Both male and female children grow up in a world where men hunt and women gather. How many times have you been to a potluck where the men cooked most of the food? Or a barbecue where the women held sway over the grill while the men were in a hot kitchen making salads? Those are petty examples, but I think you get the idea - the limitations placed on us by our genders are so built into us that we see them, but we don't see any harm in them. Then we realize that it does hurt young women to not be able to get sports scholarships, and we pass Title IX. And we start making girls take shop class along with the boys. And we let men take time off for "maternity leave". And we pat ourselves on the back for being so progressive, but we accept other limitations blindly because we simply don't recognize them as limitations. That's why we have men's only clubs in which men can build relationships that help them professionally, and far more male executives than female, and a glass ceiling that a few women have managed to bypass, but most don't. We just get to look up through it and wonder what we're doing wrong. Why is it that when we do what we're supposed to do: put ourselves forward, be assertive, work hard... we still don't get promoted, but the guy who goes hunting with the boss does.

    [ Parent ]
    Honestly, that's not how... (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Marco21 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:30:03 PM EST
    "aha moments" work - at least for me.

    He knew he was wrong the entire time. It was just okay because it wasn't toward anyone he personally knew, just whipping post/Hillary Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    The Hillary Clinton Nutcracker (4.20 / 5) (#73)
    by creeper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:16:07 PM EST
    was hardly veiled sexism.

    You say he's trying.  Well, why wasn't he trying for the past six months? After half a year of misogyny you want us to kiss and make up on the basis of a few comments that indicate he might...MIGHT...believe there was a little sexism in the campaign.

    I don't for one moment buy the idea the Barack Obama has had a sudden epiphany about sexism.  He used it to his benefit, just as he used racism. Those are not the actions of a honorable man.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not defending Obama (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:31:28 PM EST
    I'm suggesting that the author of that diary on dKos was sincere and it's worth accepting his apology. I'm unaware of any significant comments Obama has made regarding sexism, other than his stump speech "my daughters have learned..." (imo, patronizing nonsense) and some talk about equal pay, which doesn't even begin to address the issues women face in America.

    Recognizing the sexism is the first step, and this man has taken that step. I'm not going to reject people who didn't do enough. I'd rather work with people who want to change the future. Recriminations get us nowhere.

    [ Parent ]

    Worse, he did not keep silent -- nope (4.88 / 9) (#120)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:33:09 PM EST
    as he said he joined in the jokes against Clinton.  While knowing it was wrong.  And this from a man of the cloth, with many a course in counseling if he went through a standard seminary curriculum.

    And now he's had his day of atonement on the public confessional of DKos.  Sorry, that reeks of insincerity, too, as does so much of what he writes. Neither DKos nor Clinton is the One to Whom he ought to be confessing.  But then, I've never been a fan of those faiths that put their faith in public "witnessing" to feel, as he does now, "truly healed."

    He's not the one who was wounded, so he's not the one to need healing from his harm.  He joined in the pile-on to hurt women, when he joked about one woman -- that's what sexism does, as its poison spreads.  And he's not gonna reach the ones he harmed by apologizing to DKos, for pity's sake.

    His "witnessing" just seems like so much posturing for an appreciative audience that now can all feel "truly healed."  Without having done a darn real thing to heal the harm they have done.  Nice, how that works.  For them.

    [ Parent ]

    This: (4.85 / 7) (#175)
    by Nadai on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 09:31:50 PM EST
    And now he's had his day of atonement on the public confessional of DKos.

    is the part that makes me the most furious.  He goes there to post his "confession" - not here, not at The Confluence, not at Shakesville, not at any of the blogs the Hillary supporters fled to in the wake of his and his friends misogynist attacks.  He posts where he feels safe, where he'll get an 'attaboy' instead of a 'why the he11 did it take you so long?'.  And as he shows above, he resents not getting his 'attaboy' enough to create an account to whine about it.

    He didn't apologize.  Apologies are made to the people you hurt, not to your co-conspirators.

    [ Parent ]

    Ayup, 'zactly. (5.00 / 4) (#219)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 10:29:27 PM EST
    I think I'm going to go apologize to my cat for thinking bad thoughts about the driver of an obnoxiously noisy car that just went by.  My cat is a great and understanding confessor, if entirely incapable of anything but being oblivious to what I say.

    But I'll feel all warm and fuzzy and better about what a great person I am to absolve and forgive myself of my bad thoughts about the driver of the car who has nothing at all to do with my cat.

    [ Parent ]

    P.U.M.A. is not just women. (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by derridog on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:05:22 PM EST


    P.U.M.A. (5.00 / 7) (#74)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:16:31 PM EST
    seems to be both men and women getting together to act on their principles.  That's a good and healthy thing for any democracy.


    [ Parent ]
    Does anyone feel it's (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:07:32 PM EST
    ... worth summarizing what the links say? I'm never going to that site again.

    Um, okay (5.00 / 10) (#76)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST
    A very young male pastor was leading a mixed gender group on a mission event that included working at a construction site.

    Over the course of a week, he repeatedly witnessed and participated in the standard treatment for women at construction sites, namely, some version of "try to stay out of the way, honey."

    Towards the end of the week, two of the young women had a crisis moment when they got sent out of the way one time too many.  The young pastor had an epiphany . . . he saw that their frustration was real and pretty deep.  He did what pastors are paid to do and listened closely to them.

    Breakthrough moment for young pastor!

    Women don't like to be treated as if they're not fully human!  Sexism is real!

    He's very sorry for all the things he read and wrote about HRC during the primary.

    Then, about 200 comments arguing over whether or not (a) there really was sexism at DK, (b) if there was, did it matter in her campaign, and (c) if there was, wasn't it just a few bad apples here and there.

    Ahem.

    Any lurkers from DK, here's what I think.  Not surprisingly, both the diarist and the commenters mostly miss the point.

    The diarist is earnest in that cloying way so many DK posters seem to be.  He wants to be good, and to do good, and he's really, really, really a kind person.  But it's ridiculous in the extreme to read his promises about doing better next time.  I'm old and cynical, I guess . . . my advice to him would be: less talking, please.  We don't need your confession, just action when it counts.  And please don't be proud of making the rec list at DK, good Lord.  It used to mean something, but that's long gone.

    Aside from dianem, only one commenter caught my eye . . .

    The criticisms of Hillary often centered on her centrism. I think it's very interesting that Obama went back on his stance about handguns and about fisa. Not just one issue mind you and the campaign is very young. Will those same dissenters criticise him in the same way. Will they have the same hatred for him?

    I have said all along that Obama will commit the same sins she did and that he and his wife Michelle will likely look as bad as the clintons (but will survive it like the clintons did) and will likely crack under the pressure at time and make mistakes.

    The difference here is that I never hated Obama. I liked him. But lots of folks on this site especially "hated" her and hated her for things that Obama is about to do himself. Only time will tell, but for me, that hatred, that energy was about something besides the issues.

    Well said.

    [ Parent ]

    The DK poster (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by RalphB on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 07:35:23 PM EST
    also didn't "get" anything until he saw it affect two young women of his own acquaintance and under his care.  Hardly an epiphany.

    [ Parent ]
    Young women (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by vigkat on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:14:20 PM EST
    to whom he continued to refer as "girls."

    [ Parent ]
    One more thought (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:44:08 PM EST
    How exactly did the young pastor make the leap from two frustrated-to-tears would-be construction workers to Hillary Clinton?

    I would appreciate seeing a genuine I-see-sexism diary from someone over there.  As in, here is a thread in which we, the DK community used a candidate's gender against her. This is how we did it.  This is what was wrong with doing it.  Here is why it matters.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you. Yes, the parable from the pastor (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:51:11 PM EST
    is so pretentious and patronizing itself that, as you can see, I'm over the edge into alliteration.:-)

    The rev ought to address the problems to which he contributed in the campaign, directly.  Period.

    (He's picked up that Pastor Dan tone, ugh.)

    [ Parent ]

    There are several men in leadership (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:08:45 PM EST
    roles, as well.

    Figures.... (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by kredwyn on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:12:10 PM EST
    consider me unimpressed.

    On the plus side, I finally figured out a path out of my novel's Great Swampy Middle.

    An elected representative (5.00 / 8) (#42)
    by kredwyn on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:13:31 PM EST
    from TN.

    An elected representative and son of a former presidential candidate.

    Donna Brazile...

    Shall I keep going?

    Yeap, Men Too (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by JimWash08 on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:17:05 PM EST
    And amazingly, P.U.M.A isn't relegated to the Internet community.

    There are permutations of PUMA among people who use the Internet just for e-mail and work purposes, and don't frequent blogs and message boards that mention it.

    Oy. (5.00 / 9) (#45)
    by pie on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 06:19:52 PM EST
    Alec, pretty soon you're not going to be able to get out of that hole you're digging for yourself.

    You call it digging a ho