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Olbermann On Greenwald

What a hilarious diatribe:

I think John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds (maybe 26 Keith Olbermanns). Thus, as I phrased it on the air tonight, obviously Obama kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

. . . I don't know much about Mr. Greenwald and I didn't read his full piece, but I do know that the snippet he's taken out of the transcript of my conversation with Jon Alter last night makes it sound like I was saying defying the left was a good thing. I was actually contrasting it to not cowering to the Republicans, simply as a different thing. . . .

Sure you did Keith. Sure. Those of us who saw the segment know a bit better than that. And excuse me, John Dean is no Glenn Greenwald and no one who knows Glenn's work would even think to say such a thing. Unless of course you are a Keith Olbermann and what that has come to mean - Obama's O'Reilly. The man is a farce.

Speaking for me only

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  • John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds ??? (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:59:37 PM EST
    OMFG!

    As I wrote on an earlier thread, my (intelligent) conservative friend has long been trying to convince me that KO is just not a friend, just unhinged.

    I've been convinced.

    Up is down. Right is left.

    I visited a friend last night who still watches (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:09 PM EST
    Olbermann. I swear, I got the same reaction watching him as I do watching Sean Hannity (which is quite rare.)

    Parent
    Give Dean his due: (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by magnetics on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:13:36 PM EST
    I remember hearing him during the Watergate hearings -- I was a Chemistry graduate student at the time, and we had a radio on in the lab.  When  Dean started to out the Nixonian wrongdoing and wrongdoers, there was a quiet conviction in his voice, as if a minor saint were quietly, patiently, reciting scripture.  It was, dare I say it, almost heartstopping. In a season in which no Republican had done anything but lie (some things don't change much) you knew Dean was telling the truth.

    He had a large part to play upon the stage of the Nation's history, and he wound up doing it honorably.  How many of us have had the same opportunity?  Which of us would do as well?  I'm not sure I would.

    Parent

    You must be joking (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:18:41 PM EST
    Dean did not act honorably. He cut a deal.

    Look, I am glad he did and Dean says some interesting things sometimes but to make a hero if John Dean is to perverse for words.

    And his argument on FISA is beyond childish, it is delusional. It is a truly one of the most idiotic theories ever propounded on television, and that is saying something. It is an embarrassment.

    Parent

    Thank you, thank you -- I begin to wonder (5.00 / 6) (#39)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:28 PM EST
    these days whether I am the only who remembers that KO's hero John Dean participated in the crimes of Watergate.  Per Wikipedia (not always the best source but a quick one and accurate in this case in its summary):
    As White House Counsel, he became deeply involved in events leading up to the Watergate burglaries and the subsequent Watergate scandal cover up, even referred to as "master manipulator of the cover up" by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). He was convicted of multiple felonies as a result of Watergate, and went on to become a key witness for the prosecution, resulting in a reduction of his time in jail.


    Parent
    You're not the only one... (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by A little night musing on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:19:10 AM EST
    What I recall is that the Watergate hearings made heroes of some lawyers...

    Made us think the Law could be a force for good.

    That was just about the last time in my lifetime... sad...

    Parent

    The same could be said (5.00 / 4) (#159)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:16:42 AM EST
    by those of us who went into journalism then, because of Woodward and Bernstein.  Truly sad!

    And truly a lifetime ago.  

    Parent

    and turns out woodward and bernstein (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by sancho on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:15:33 AM EST
    were not heroes (any more than dean was), just stenographers for a faction of the FBI (mark felt). puts woodward's later work (and modern journalism) into appropriatee context.

    Parent
    State of education isn't too good, (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:26:21 AM EST
    I gather.  Although I didn't realize John Dean (John Dean!!!) was on TV now.  

    Parent
    Yes, you oughta see how U.S. history texts (none / 0) (#199)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:55:04 AM EST
    deal with Watergate -- as with so many crucial events and issues in recent decades.  The cost to authors of appeasing Texas to sell textbooks . . . the cost to the integrity of such authors . . . the cost to us all, as can be seen in the younger generation's uneducated agreement with the version of recent history as sold by a certain candidate. . . .

    Parent
    If Only You Would (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by talex on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:15:15 AM EST
    come down on Obama like you do Olbermann and others then it would all mean something.

    You promised to come down on Clinton yesterday if she voted for cloture but when it came to Obama if  he did the same...

    Crickets.

    Parent

    luckily Nixon taped himself. (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:17 PM EST
    C*cks*ck*ng c*mmie press, and those F*cking Kennedy B*st*rds, scr*w em all the Mucking papist swines!!! Where's my Scotch?

    Surveilance works both ways.

    Parent

    John Dean will (none / 0) (#157)
    by camellia on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:14:23 AM EST
    always have my utmost respect for what he did then.  To watch this soft-spoken man spelling out the depravity of the Nixon administration was to see quiet courage.  Doesn't matter what he's done since, as far as I'm concerned.

    Parent
    This is pretty funny stuff.. (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by daria g on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:00 AM EST
    I've been reading Greenwald for a long time..
    The first few paragraphs of Olbermann's diary tell me he doesn't bother to check his facts or to go back and check what was said, and doesn't care, either.  What kind of journalist does he pretend to be, now?  

    I would think it would be pretty embarrassing to go to the trouble of writing a lengthy piece to respond to Greenwald, while at the same time declaring that he isn't important and you don't know who he is and don't read him?  This makes no sense, unless one assumes that the only guiding principles for Keith Olbermann are that Keith Olbermann is always right, and Barack Obama is always right, and if the two of these seem to be in conflict, both of them have always been right.

    Parent

    You'd think (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by suki on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:02:39 AM EST
    but when you're a clown, nothing can embarrass you.
    When you've turned yourself into a clown, you can reduce anything to an 'Oh, yeah? Well, mine's bigger than yours!' argument.
    Pretty soon he'll be making balloon animals on the air.

    Parent
    Olbermann is such a tool.... (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:01:29 AM EST
    When I started to type "Olbermann" on the subject line of this post, the magic of Windows saved me the trouble by suggesting a post title I'd already used before. I'm sure it will continue to come in handy.

    Parent
    What a whiny, wandering, and (5.00 / 9) (#4)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:59:56 PM EST
    just weird piece of work from KO at that link.  There's a lot of anger between the lines there.  He doesn't sound like he likes DKos much anymore.

    Awwww.

    I almost feel bad for him. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:25 PM EST
    Glenn Greenwald is about to really embarass him.

    Parent
    YES. (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by Marco21 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:41:40 PM EST
    I hope Keith has a stockpile of Bactine.

    He is gonna get bunred for this BS.

    Parent

    I just read it and he doesn't even have an.. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:51:58 PM EST
    actual argument, it is just an appeal to authority. He doesn't even know what he is talking about. And he doesn't even know that there is a contradiction in his opinions.

    This guy is an embarrasment to liberals.

    Parent

    There's nothing intrinsically wrong (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:54:21 PM EST
    with appealing to authority. You just have to make sure it's relevant and, um, actually an authority on the subject under discussion.

    But Olberman just likes Dean and his talk show.

    Parent

    Why an embarrassment to liberals? (5.00 / 7) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:54:50 PM EST
    I say he is an embarrassment to cultists.

    Parent
    He's an (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:04:27 AM EST
    embarassment to liberals because there aren't enough people like you and Greenwald kneecapping him.

    Parent
    Difficult to distinguish the two these days (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:21:23 AM EST
    point taken (none / 0) (#75)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:01:35 AM EST
    i hope ko has money saved in the bank. (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:29:03 AM EST
    i somehow don't see him as a long term player. egos that fragile don't last long you know.

    Parent
    But he did explain it (5.00 / 10) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:39:35 PM EST
    [A]nybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

    See OTHER Dems caved, not Obama. Perfectly reasonable in the world of Obama's O'Reilly.

    Parent

    He can't fight battles, (5.00 / 11) (#53)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:40:31 PM EST
    he's running for President!

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:40:58 PM EST
    God forbid he makes an exective decision. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:50:35 PM EST
    However being vgue means none gets too angry at you.

    Parent
    Flip Flopping crudely (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:51:39 PM EST
    means you never have anyone to turn to. Well, unless you have your very own cult, complete with TV talk channel. . .

    Parent
    but the seal says it all, right? (none / 0) (#177)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:30:22 AM EST
    oh yeah, everyone laughed so hard, that is now gone. i must stay up on these things.

    Parent
    Oh he is fighting battles (none / 0) (#89)
    by talex on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:17:14 AM EST
    Just for the wrong side.

    Parent
    good god (none / 0) (#182)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:47:27 AM EST
    Obama was crowned the party leader a month ago.  Does KO think those other Senators aren't folowoing his lead?  Does he think McCaskill, to name just one, is going to oppose Obama on anything right now?  What a freaking idiot.

    Parent
    Shannon, c;mon. (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by Marco21 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:42:59 PM EST
    Without a certain NY senator to rally against, Keith is forced to flail in the wind.

    Parent
    Ever notice that long-pants and short-pants media (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:16:21 AM EST
    ... desperately want each others' gigs? Why not everyone just trade pants?

    Parent
    Obama shouldn't pay any attention... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:01 PM EST
    ...to this pet issue.  It looks like a good excuse to dump Dkos and what-not in the lake.

    Funny thing (5.00 / 10) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:39 PM EST
    Obama has done so repeatedly, and still many of them don't get that.

    Parent
    This is likely to be ... (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:07:20 PM EST
    ...a bit ore high profile. This more paranoid stuff about surveilance seems to get the left more excited than UHC.

    Parent
    Not the left (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:17 AM EST
    Just Markos an the boyz. Then again Markos is the first to admit he has a bit of a libertarian in him(I do as well so I don't say that as a bad thing). The health care thing may not be as much of a priority thing because alot of times people don't realize how bad it is until they get shafted. Kos won his last battle with the insurance company due to his visibility. He got lucky. He may not be so lucky next time.

    Parent
    This is likely to be ...The Bolshies vs Kerensky (none / 0) (#16)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:13:32 PM EST
    although which is which.  I dunno. It makes me laugh to think about how all the boutique liberals creamed themselves over this charmingly sharp fellow called Obama.

    Indeed Kerensky is a good case study for the Dems in the upcoming years.  Kerensky kept fighting Germany and kept his government afloat with loans from the US and Britain, and was probably the closest thing to a Social Democrat Russia has ever had. Then the Kaiser trained in Lenin and Trotsky to perform a coup and barter a peace treaty.

    Parent

    ehhh (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:19:31 PM EST
    I don't think that really holds. You know that we actually sent ground troops to fight in the Russian Civil War, right?

    Parent
    Yes. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:23:06 PM EST
    There was a bounty for troops who volunteered.  The Britsh landed a Brigade of Royal Marines in Archagel to guard magazines and set up ana base camp for the Whites.

    One interesting story was the trains commandeered by  Czechs who terrorized the interior for months.

    Fascinatig littl moment in History.

    Parent

    Didn't hear that story (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:24:14 PM EST
    Interesting.

    Parent
    They had been captured... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29:36 PM EST
    ...in the Brusilov Offensive as Austrian troops.  When Russia surrendered to germany, they were released and then immediatly hired by Czarist officers to fight the Reds.  What they did was take over trains and fit them out in Mad Max style.

    Parent
    There are actual historical (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:13:15 AM EST
    reasons why the Soviets were paranoid about seemingly inoffensive countries like Czechoslovakia, and even Sweden and Poland, if you go back a little further.  (Not to mention the Russian Orthodox church establishment)

    Parent
    The beauty of it from Obama's side is that (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:16:15 AM EST
    he doesn't have to dump Dkos because he did that a couple of years ago and reconfirmed it during his Wallace interview on Fox just recently. Basically, like Farrakhan, Obama can't help who supports him.

    In reality, Obama publicly frequently shows his disdain for those who are so willing to be used as tools.

    Parent

    It was whiney! (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by vcmvo2 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:02:59 PM EST
    He really was feeling sorry for himself but he is pompous and self-referential even when he pretends he's talking about John Dean's opinions. I guess Olbermann hasn't heard anything but adulation in far too long...

    Oh good frief. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:03:46 PM EST
    I hate to say this (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:06:28 PM EST
    but. . .point taken.

    Parent
    I never thought I'd agree with any of these (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by Teresa on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:12:46 PM EST
    comments:

    Be careful if you hate Bill O'Reilly. You might turn into a left-wing blowhard mirror-image of him.

    I don't know which is worse, Olberman faking what he believes or Olbermann actually believing what he is saying.


    Parent
    KO is a little thin-skinned it seems. (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Teresa on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:07:30 PM EST
    He really does believe that Obama sees a loophole and will use it once in office? Wow is all I can say.

    I think it can be argued that if he's caught the same hole in the bill that Dean has, his best course is actually to shut up and take the criticism and hope the Republicans don't see the loophole.

    If, or not, there is no way that is what Obama's motive is.

    Olbermann is just beyond analysis (5.00 / 11) (#14)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:12:40 PM EST
    He really is saying that his TV talk show has produced a better analysis of the situation than the ACLU and Glenn Greenwald.

    Parent
    Doesn't the rift suit Obama's purposes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:16:46 PM EST
    for the general?  This seems like a good place to pick a fight with the Lawyers.

    Parent
    Oh sure, (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:18:25 PM EST
    The more he Sister Souljahs, the better he'll do. At least, that's the traditional view. In a year like this, where you just can't discourage the left, I think it might be really right.

    Parent
    He did not Sistah Souljah (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:03 PM EST
    He blatantly flip flopped. It was bad politics.

    He gained NOTHING from this. Nothing.

    Indeed, the Right Wing is picking up the theme.

    Parent

    I did see that they're going after him (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:21:34 PM EST
    He's just being too obvious about moving to the center.

    I wonder what Feingold really thinks about all of this.

    Parent

    too obvious (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29:47 PM EST
    Exactly. no nuance or subtlety. this was a terrible move politically.

    As opposed to the public finance flip flop.

    Parent

    I think the two go hand-in-hand (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:10:35 AM EST
    I'm not saying this is so, but the GOP can argue that the root of both Obama flipflops (public financing and FISA) is money. The telecoms have much money. Other donors who are NOT telecoms have much stock in telecoms. Telecom lawsuits would hurt the people who matter most in a world of the-sky-is-the-limit campaigning: big donors.

    So with both of those moves last week, Obama have the GOP an opportunity to hang a big ol' For Sale sign around his neck. Of course, that's ironic, coming from the party of unabashed corporatism, but that's the point: the GOP can be open about their concern for the wellbeing of telecoms and other corporate interests because it fits their ideology. Democrats, however, were once the party of regulations to protect consumers, workers, and the environment.

    But that may be changing now in the rebranding of the party into the "whatever daddy needs" party.

    Parent

    As of 2 weekends ago (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:31:02 AM EST
    Russ was seemingly not expecting his help. I asked him about the bill at the State D Convention. "Senator Dodd and I are going to do everything we can to stop it." His tone and bodylanguage not optimistic.

    Parent
    When was the last FISA poll? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:23:55 PM EST
    The last one I remember reading was some time ago.  Has there been a poll on public perception since? And what was the wording?

    Parent
    Wait (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:25:05 PM EST
    Now you want your guy to be poll tested?

    Heh, that's too much. Maybe he should hire Mark Penn.

    Parent

    It is completely valid (none / 0) (#38)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:30:27 PM EST
    Micropolling was not so much the issue with Penn, he was a horrible strategist.  There's no way Axelrod wasn't doing internal polling (we know, in fact, they were...everyone does).  BTD said he gained nothing.  That may or may not be true.  Doesn't change the fact that I oppose the FISA bill.  

     Theoretically he is "your guy," too, unless you are still living in primary mode or you're supporting McCain or going third party.

    Parent

    I said he LOSt something (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:36 PM EST
    and maybe a lot.

    this was a clear mistake.

    Parent

    Could have sworn... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:38:40 PM EST
    ...the post I was responding to said he gained nothing, but, regardless, I concur for the most part: it was a wrong move, and too obvious.

     

    Parent

    I certainly take no responsibility (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:32:44 PM EST
    for his strategy.

    And honestly, of course they were polling the whole time. Any campaign with money does.

    Parent

    44-42 (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:28:52 PM EST
    If favor of warrants. but no polling on telco immunity - which only two groups of people care about - the liberal activists and the telcos.

    the liberal activists are more important now.

    Parent

    libertarians too. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:37 AM EST
    The Reason guys are giving it more attention, and I've seen posts on Ron Paul lists pretty pissed at him for "Not Voting."

    Parent
    The press... (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:26:53 PM EST
    ...let him get away with these 180 degree shifts in position.  The Other candidates were never able to pin this obvious character flaw on Obama, in part because Obama understood he was immune from the gotchas.  So he kept saying stuff he did not believ to pander to the anti war crowd.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:17:38 AM EST
    the press let him get away with this stuff during the primary. Neither they nor the GOP are going to let him get away with it now. I guess this is what happens when you start believing in your own press.

    Parent
    yeah, that's true. i was channel surfing (none / 0) (#178)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:37:10 AM EST
    last night and i acually heard cnn commenting on the dustup between obama and the big hillary donors. i was shocked i tell you to hear cnn actually note that.

    Parent
    I expect we will hear (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:33:25 AM EST
    how he has flip flopped on gun control next. They've already hit on it for campaign finance.

    Obama is going to have a hard time convincing people that his positions are genuine.

    Parent

    If Obama wins this election, (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:06:06 AM EST
    then look for his style of politicking to take over for the next 30 years.  It will go into textbooks as an example of "How to win elections."

    Seriously.  Every candidate will start going back and forth on everything and no one will be able to figure out exactly where anyone stands.  Elections will become monumental jokes.  

    This will continue until someone figures out that they might be able to run on the basis of "New Politics" where they actually mean everything they say and stand by it.  And the new "New Politics" will be what the "Old Politics" were before the Obama "New Politics" took over.  

    ....At least, this is what my crystal ball is telling me....  ;-)  

    Parent

    Ha! (none / 0) (#127)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:37:46 AM EST
    This will continue until someone figures out that they might be able to run on the basis of "New Politics" where they actually mean everything they say and stand by it.  And the new "New Politics" will be what the "Old Politics" were before the Obama "New Politics" took over.
     

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

     Yeah, it is actually the same old politics, either way.  Politics is politics is politics.

     What hopefully ends in January is Bush politics, i.e., the imperial, 51% presidency.  But if you think political positioning is going away, well...it isn't.

    Parent

    Evidently not (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:43:35 AM EST
    Since there are a whole bunch of enablers nd excuse makers for polticians that behave in such a manner.

    Personally, I'm a big fan of principles. Pandering to obtain power..... not so much.

    Parent

    So... (none / 0) (#132)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:55:53 AM EST
    ...you were a Kucinich supporter?

    Parent
    No actually (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:10:15 AM EST
    I was a bit more pragmatic and chose Edwards. His stint in Senate was unimpressive but what he did AFTER that time in made me an admirer.

    I do admire Kuchinich though and did not ridicule him or his ideas. I personally boycotted the debates after they kicked him off the debates. The whole primary seemed very Survivoresque.

    Parent

    I'm a big fan of principles too. (none / 0) (#133)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:58:29 AM EST
    The pandering this season has been insane!!!

    It used to be that you would pander to one group on one issue and to a different group on a different issue.  

    This season we see pandering to opposing groups on the SAME issue!  This blows me away!  This is like being for and against the death penalty, for and against abortion, for and against religion in schools -- it's just crazy!  

    Obama just said that he was okay with the death penalty for raping a young child.  I fully expect him to come out against the death penalty for murder.

    Anyway, this election is one to watch.  If these tactics work, they'll be employed over and over for a few decades -- until everyone figures them out and grows disenchanted with the system.        

    Parent

    Color me disenchanted already (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:12:24 AM EST
    The last thing we need to be doing when we have lives on the line overseas and we are deeplyin the hole financially is treating the opportunityo effect change like it's some game show- with te grand prize being four years of power at the taxpayers expense.

    Parent
    I'm disenchanted too. (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:39:15 AM EST
    It seems we traded in the Democratic leadership in Congress and the Senate for clones who only say "yes."  

    Parent
    i don't think Obama's style of (none / 0) (#156)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:11:41 AM EST
    campaigning would work in the future a second time unless it is for another black candidate.  And, I'm not even sure that would work the second time around.

    Parent
    Well he's "straddling the issue" (none / 0) (#117)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:19:08 AM EST
    at the moment. Or that's the chattering I was hearing coming from the TeeVee. Maybe he'll fall off?

    Parent
    I've also heard some straddling on (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:05:37 AM EST
    NAFTA. Heh, makes me wonder if he's a circus performer or a presidential candidate with all the fancy footwork.

    Parent
    Wasn't NAFTA a Moonwalk? (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:15:52 AM EST
    or whatever that backwards dance slid is called, lol!~

    Parent
    Indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:15:31 AM EST
    He's filling up the swiftboat for the GOP all by himself.

    Parent
    I think FISA Flip Flop has hurt with (none / 0) (#184)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:57:52 AM EST
    college students. Friend of mine stopped in the East Village (lots of NYU students live there) to speak to group of students who were asking people to sign FISA-related petitions. They had been Obama supporters, and openly admitted to my friend that they did not realize who he really is.  I am concerned that the polls continue to be skewed in Obama's favor, and that the DNC, the Super Delegates and the Obama campaign may be allowing those polls to guide them.  The state by state polls, especially in states the Dems must carry in November, seem more reliable, and do not seem to show the same story.

    Obama is doing just what he accused Hillary of doing -- beefing up his national security credentials by running to the middle. But his going for "national security first" in his change of attitude on the FISA issue makes him so vulnerable to Repug attacks on this blatant flip flop.  

    Did anyone catch his statement yesterday in favor of the death penalty in child rape cases after the Supreme Court decision against it? McCain had come out disagreeing with the Supreme Court here too.  

    Parent

    Even if... (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by santarita on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:36:35 PM EST
    some stealth legal loophole did exist, what in Obama's record or in his philosophy of post-partisanship would give anyone any reasonable expectation that Pres. Obama would use such loophole?

    In short, with regard to Sen. Obama's apparent cave-in on FISA, Mr. Olbermann would be wise to find something else to talk about that won't make him defend something indefensible.

    Parent

    Oh, this is going to be good! (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:59 PM EST
    Two netroots heroes in a catfight!

    A mismatch (5.00 / 14) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:27:34 PM EST
    Greenwald will humiliate him.

    Parent
    Agree... (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:08 PM EST
    This is a fight KO is better to walk away from while he still has his *ss.  I wouldn't want to argue with GG about the weather, but about Constitutional Law?  That is a big negatory from me.

    I'm sure the Regressives can just paint over Kerry's face on their extra sandals with Obama's mighty visage.  Hell, he has a ready made seal!

    Jackson

    Parent

    Tis is GG's territory (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:36:53 PM EST
    But I could eviscerate Olbermann;s diary with little trouble in 120 minutes. I give you one example - this is the New Republic Syndrome personified:

    Thus, as I phrased it on the air tonight, obviously Obama kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

    Steny Hoyer could not have said it better. Olbermannn doing a Hoyer imitation pretty much precludes him ever doing a Special Comment ever again - in a sane world. But Olbermann is farce so it will not stop him at all.

     

    Parent

    Hey... (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:46:41 PM EST
    do you wonder if KO has the guts to put him on the air?  I'd steal a satellite dish just to see that (my cable co. doesn't offer MSNBC, a fact that I used to hate, but I now realize that it was a blessing in disguise.)

    The basic point is people don't vote for sniveling cowards, even if they're effective, prepared, and intelligent sniveling cowards.  And the Dem Caucus almost to a person (with exceptions of course) are sniveling cowards.  Is there no "Golden Mean" between the utter stupidity of Shrub's doggedness and the sniveling cowardice of the Dems?  Let's freaking hope so.

    Did I mention Dems are sniveling cowards yet?  :)

    Jackson

    Parent

    I assure you that Olbermann (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48:16 PM EST
    does not have the guts to put on anyone who does not completely kiss up to him.

    Parent
    I know... (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:50:41 PM EST
    I forgot the snark tag!

    Jackson

    Parent

    given Olbermann's (none / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48:05 PM EST
    shift he thoroughly deserves everything that can be thrown at him. He's had it coming. At least it's a critique rooted in something leftish for once.

    Parent
    Y'know? It's strange... (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by kredwyn on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:38:09 AM EST
    I have never really considered myself a "leftist" before.

    But apparently I just got my teeth kicked in.

    Parent

    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by daryl herbert on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:21:18 AM EST
    You can't humiliate someone who lacks a sense of shame.

    Even an army of Greenwalds couldn't force Olbermann to pay attention.

    Parent

    I wonder which side Duncan is going to choose (none / 0) (#114)
    by Dan the Man on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:09:32 AM EST
    Hmmmm....

    Parent
    He is now the OO man. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jake Left on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:21:27 PM EST
    Thanks for he term. I will now only be able to think of him as Obama's O'Reilly. He can look you straight in the face and lie about what he just said. He is a fitting successor to Bill's mantle.

    Heh... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:25:59 PM EST
    He can look you straight in the face and lie about what he just said. He is a fitting successor to Bill's mantle.

     Sorry, can't resist: We talking about Barack or Keith?

    Parent

    Barackieth Olbama? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:44 PM EST
    Specifically... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:32:56 PM EST
    ...referring to "successor" to "Bill."

    Parent
    For his next trick... (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by zebedee on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:24:16 PM EST
    ..I presume we'll hear from him this comment on Hillary's Iraq authorization vote:

    "Obviously Clinton kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Clinton dealing with Iraq, instead of seeing a Senator Clinton engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote against a bill that is going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway"

    Actually in that vote I'm not sure it even needed any democrates to cave in for it to pass


    keeping on the Nixon theme (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    He doesn't have Hillary to kick around anymore.

    Parent
    BTD... (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:49:36 PM EST
    I just want to say this. Cause it's late, and I'm tired.

    You're a centrist, and I'm a DFH of the first order. I am an unashamed leftist. But no one has eyes more open than you, and I am above all an empiricist,

    I am grateful for all you do. And for your seemingly unending stamina.

    Tomorrow you'll make me think again, and I'll be mad, but glad.

    Dang you.

    I didn't ask you to approve. My comment (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by FemB4dem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:56:12 PM EST
    was about the Unity bash and how KO would react to PUMA protesters.  Debating the merits of PUMA in this thread would be OT.  Later, in an open thread, if you like.  But I think BTD already had a post on that topic awhile back.

    Speaking of KO and the Unity bash, part I, Larry Johnson is reporting over at NQ that Obama's  meeting with Hillary's fundraisers tonight bombed.  Much more understated, is Heidi Li's post and her promise of more tomorrow:

    link

    My guess is KO will have a lot to make a further fool of himself over tomorrow, and there will be much more Hillary bashing to come.  Stay tuned.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#73)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:43 AM EST
    Heidi Feldman was one of my professors in law school!  It's so funny to see her at the heart of this whole drama.  She is such a super-smart person I don't really have the words to describe it.

    Parent
    Don't know her, but IMO (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:13:32 AM EST
    she has been a great voice in all of this, just standing back and quietly saying let's help Hillary settle her debt, we owe her that much. For that reason, her follow-up comment (same link as above) just posted because she couldn't "sleep on it," packs a real wallop, IMO:

    "Senator Obama, however, left me cold. And since I will not be voting for Mr. McCain in November, I still do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for Senator Obama.

    The most revealing moment of the evening: early in his remarks, Senator Obama told us he would have to be "extraodordinarily humble." Anybody who tells me he or she must be humble is telling me he or she is not about to be humble."

    Ouch!  So much for Unity.  KO is going to stroke out tomorrow, I'm guessing.

    Parent

    Heidi Li (none / 0) (#113)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:07:11 AM EST
    is Heidi Feldman?  No way.

    I think we may have gone to the same law school.  I never had her but she taught at my school.

    Parent

    Heidi's link is broken (none / 0) (#158)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:15:11 AM EST
    and eliminating one of the http's doesn't help.


    Parent
    Try this (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by tree on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:17:53 AM EST
    thank you! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:23:02 AM EST
    It's a daily read now for me (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    as Feldman has a similar voice to Jeralyn's -- but Feldman remains closer to the Clinton campaign, so we still can read reports from its perspective, and we still can get clues of where Clinton may be headed after all this.  And clues as to where the Democratic party may be heading.  Hint:  One has emerged from all this with integrity intact.

    Parent
    cnn reported on the "unity" dustup also. (none / 0) (#185)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    Hahaha (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:57:34 PM EST
    Yes, raise your hand if you can see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally!

    Yes, it's fun to believe that a safe, centrist campaign will be followed up by a flawless term in office doing nothing but the netroots' bidding, but please.  

    There's plenty of room to Bill Clinton's left for President Obama to have two successful terms.  Let's content ourselves with hoping for that, shall we, and not drive ourselves into a frenzy of unrealistic expectations.  Prosecuting the telecoms?!?  Bahahahaha!

    I do notbelie ve he believes it (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:59:16 PM EST
    do you? It is rationalizing for why the reincarnation of Edward R. Murrow can pretend to ignore the blatant flip flop and dishonesty from Obama.

    Parent
    Somebody once said something (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:51 AM EST
    about someone else being like Ted Baxter. . .

    Parent
    I believe (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:02:45 AM EST
    that KO is a performer who cares about nothing but ratings and professional success.  Zip, zero, nada.

    His outreach to the netroots was astonishingly transparent from Day One.  He sees the Daily Kos crowd as his reliable niche audience, period.  Their agenda is his agenda.

    Parent

    Even some of the Kos crew (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:38:55 AM EST
    were intellectually honest enough to admit what Obama was doing- selling out.

    Olbermann is a used car salesman, and not even a very good one.

    He's selling a product. His product happens to be Obama.

    Parent

    If he cared about his professional (none / 0) (#106)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:10 AM EST
    success, wouldn't he stop getting his facts wrong so much of the time? Eventually he is going to become the most mocked news anchor ever, which is going to destroy his career.

    Also if he cared so much about ratings, why would he go crazy on Hillary, when according to some article his average viewer was a 59 year old woman?

    I think that he actually thinks this way. There are thousands of people on the internet that thinks like this, so it shouldn't be much of a shock when someone in the press thinks like this.

    Parent

    Raise your hand (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:09 AM EST
    if you think Obama's administration will have substantial policy differences from the second Clinton administration.

    Parent
    Considering he didn't consider (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:47:30 AM EST
    Clinton's presidency transformational enough, I don't see an Obama presidency as anything like a Clinton presidency, second term or otherwise.

    Obama has tied himself to "transformational" Reagan, unfortunately for him, I ain't a Reagan fan.

    Parent

    Obama has "tied himself" (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:24:51 AM EST
    Haven't his recent flip-flops shown that Obama hasn't "tied himself" to anything without using a "slip knot"?

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#78)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:05:07 AM EST
    The country is in a better place politically, there's going to be a strong Democratic majority in Congress.  There's plenty of room for good stuff to happen even without Obama suddenly emerging as a wild-eyed leftist hero.

    Parent
    That's my hope (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:06:13 AM EST
    But honestly, I'll settle for much less. It's what I'm prepared for.

    Parent
    As an independent I don't understand (none / 0) (#200)
    by kimsaw on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:56:31 AM EST
    how you can say this country is in a better place because of the Democratic Majority in Congress. What real differences are there between the parties as they frame their arguments. One step forward, two steps back.  Don't throw women's rights out there as a scare tactic, that's just like throwing out the terror card. There are 3 branches of government and none of them have been doing their jobs for nearly 8 years.  Maybe I'm a cynic and haven't bought into this hopey changey mantra, but there is no evidence that I should.  I'm beginning to think the idea of Nader isn't all that crazy anymore. At least he has the courage to call them out, all of them.  The Democratic leaders  have done nothing but brush the dirt off their shoulders, and that dirt is their constituents. The presumptive Dust Buster in Chief  is  selling out to the middle, and I'm in the middle, yet I can't even contemplate ever supporting the likes of Obama, Pelosi or Dean. They lack integrity, commitment to their core values, and I don't even know if they know what those values are anymore. Obama declares that the win at all cost mentality is toxic and then his campaign proceeds to spread the cancer through the use of sexism, ageism,and racism.  The media carries the toxins through the national bloodstream and all vital organs are infected.  FISA, the gun ban, the Clinton hate, UHC, campaign financing are issues of national character and integrity and the Democrats sold out.
    I can't say anything good about the Republicans either. In the last 8 years I've swung more left than right and now there is no where to go.  

    Parent
    Raise your hand (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:08:22 AM EST
    If you can imagine Obama handling DADT in ... 1992.


    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#82)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:10:06 AM EST
    You apparently haven't been issued the rewritten version of the history book.

    Parent
    Which one is that? (none / 0) (#84)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:12:43 AM EST
    Because yeah, I'm not satisfied with the way Bubba handled that.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:20:58 AM EST
    Well, here's how I remember it:

    1. Clinton campaigned on allowing gays in the military, and kept his word, immediately putting the issue on the agenda after taking office;

    2. He was sandbagged by key figures like Colin Powell and Sam Nunn, and the issue turned into a political disaster; and

    3. He agreed to DADT as the best compromise he could get, which at least was an improvement over what we had going in.

    On my top 10 list of Clinton grievances, this one isn't even a candidate.  It wasn't a win, but I think the guy showed an impressive amount of political courage in pushing it as far as he did.  Maybe people forget just how little regard there was for gay people in the first place, after the nightmare of Reagan/Bush.

    Parent
    Certainly not as galling for me as DOMA (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:24:12 AM EST
    which I know has a similar explanation.

    Parent
    I won't defend that (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:31:54 AM EST
    But not because I can't, but only because if I did I'd be a cultist.


    Parent
    Well it's a good thing, then, (none / 0) (#100)
    by JDM in NYC on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:54 AM EST
    that Obama's bringing Sam Nunn back to Washington, so that we can get rid of Bubba's heritage and have some "Change."

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:31:37 AM EST
    And Nunn is a completely unacceptable choice.

    Parent
    Everyone (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:18:39 AM EST
    Does seem to interpret history differently.


    Parent
    My hand is waving! (none / 0) (#97)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:27:56 AM EST
    That's why all of this Sturm und Drang during the primaries has been totally for naught and a pathetic waste of time.  No one is ever going to take this country Left, it will have to meander, after a Regressive coup or two, that way naturally.  While the Dems are undeniably better (hey, they'll whisper sweet nothings to voters and give a voter a decent reach-around during coitus) and will improve things somewhat for the average Joe (or Jane, maybe the primaries were good for something after all, eh?), a couplet I once wrote sums it up nicely:

    "Corporate Party A, Corporate Party B;
    Asses and Elephants to you and me!"

    (Before the troll rates start, I did make the Dems A, so cool your jets. ;))  And I wrote this long ago, it has nothing to do with Obama personally, he's just fitting in to the rhyme perfectly.  That is rather unfortunate, which is my nice way of saying it on a swear-free site.  I know I could have used Donkeys, but it would ruin the alliteration.

    Jackson

    Parent

    It won't move left (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:40:35 AM EST
    as long as we continue to play cult of personality instead of concentrating on issues and if we are unable to even the playing field for candidates that aren't in the pocket of business.

    Parent
    On what issue (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:09:33 AM EST
    Will Obama be to the left of Clinton?


    Parent
    We'll see (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:11:27 AM EST
    I'm just saying there's room there.  I don't expect Obama to show me the political courage he has failed to demonstrate thus far, but perhaps he'll surprise me.

    Parent
    Political courage? (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:52:37 AM EST
    Isn't that an oxymoron?  

    He can show you "Political" ("Yes, I am both for and against this measure"),

    Or

    He can show you "Courage" ("Yes dear, I killed that spider in the corner.")

    I don't believe he can show both at once because that doesn't appear to be the kind of person he is.  

    Parent

    Which totally sucks (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:52:19 AM EST
    because that is the type of person this country needs at the helm.

    We don't need 4 more years of the President telling everyone to "go shopping" and just leave the pesky prolem solving to us(and 20 years hence they will STILL be discussing friggin' steroids in sports, wagging their fingers, and introducing resolutions to thank/condemn groups of individuals).

    Parent

    Maybe a little room (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:15:09 AM EST
    We'll see.


    Parent
    Pathetic. (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by halstoon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:25:59 AM EST


    What a piece of work is Obamann (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:03:21 AM EST
    I don't know much about Mr. Greenwald and I didn't read his full piece, but I do know that the snippet he's taken out of the transcript [...]

    Yes, Obamann, do tell why opining on snippets is idiotic.

    (Obamann goes on to clarify something that may or may not be in the piece that he didn't read in its entirety) and then wags the bloviational integrity-restoring finger.

    Did Mr. Greenwald note that [ ... nuances of Obamann's message that might be in the piece Obamann didn't fully read...] or did he leave that out?

    Still time on the Doomsday Clock for Obamann to read Greenwald's piece in its entirety and see for himself. Tick tock, but alas ...

    I do think Mr. Greenwald's suggestion of some kind of betrayal on my part is simplistic and childish

    Cue the dramatic prairie dog in a top had and monocle.

    Have any of you ventured into (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:22:28 AM EST
    teh comments to Olbermann's DK diary?  I noticed mcjoan's FP today did not garner many comments, and, Kos himself seems to be mute re Obama's latest pronouncement on telecomm immunity.  

    I just read through the comments (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by shoephone on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:58:48 AM EST
    on Olbermann's diary and it took quite awhile wading through the muck of all that hypocrisy and overindulgent fawning to get to the few brave souls who actually took him on. Someone named "Lithium Cola" started the truthtelling and that gave others the courage to voice their displeasure with 00's dismissiveness of Greenwald too.

    It wasn't fun though. The overwhelming idiocy far outweighed the little bits of intelligence.

    Parent

    I can't believe a lot of the people (5.00 / 4) (#129)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:46:49 AM EST
    who post here have posted there in the past (and present).  I've only visited that website a handful of times but it seems like it is full of very young voters (cheerleader types) and not a lot of substance.  

    It's also lacking one of the biggest reasons I read any of the boards:  Great links.  

    TalkLeft does get good links.  So do some other places.  I don't have time to read a zillion blogs to get the best stuff and some good analysis.  I've got to be a little pickier.  

    Anyway, they get tons of posts and a good gazillion comments and most of them are vapid.  Who has time to weed through all that junk?  It's almost like trying to read the comments on any news story posted on Yahoo.  
       

    Parent

    it didn't always feel as if (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:00:20 AM EST
    you were wading into a high school pep rally. Alot of the good folks left though once it became clear that the site was going to be an echo chamber. The first hint was when kos disabled some Edwards supporters ability to rate comments because they got into it with Obama supporters but didn't do the same for the Obama supporters equally guilty of egregious behavior. The writing was on the wall for me when he FPed that Florida didn't reall count after condemning Clinton for discounting caucus states. One can only take so much hypocrisy.

    I do miss sifting through diaries on everything from gardening to the economy. Sigh.

    Parent

    It wasn't always like that. (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Fabian on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:40:35 AM EST
    It always had a whacky, silly side but it wasn't the echo chamber it is now.  There are some writers there that I would still recommend, but they are all issues writers: science, economy, climate change.  

    Parent
    I was never registered there (none / 0) (#138)
    by shoephone on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:13:53 AM EST
    so I never have posted a comment. Just read it for awhile, mostly because of McJoan, who is from Seattle and does a very good job on the front page. But most of the diaries, and especially the comments, are beyond comprehension.

    Parent
    The polls are the really stupid parts. (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:45:03 AM EST
    They frequently have 10 answers that are all the same...

    It's very junior high.  

    Parent

    Did someone say that KO is smart? (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:35:02 AM EST
    I've read that assertion many times.
    I think O'Reilly is smarter.

    Re: Did someone say that KO is smart? (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Pol C on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:43:05 AM EST
    As obnoxious as O'Reilly is, he allows people with opposing views on the air. Olbermann doesn't. That right there makes O'Reilly better than Olbermann.


    Parent
    I think... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:31:11 AM EST
    ...you are starting to lose perspective.

    Parent
    Both Olbermann and O'Reilly (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by pie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:44:45 AM EST
    are adept at reading the teleprompter.

    Parent
    But in Olbermann's case (none / 0) (#189)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:11:35 AM EST
    take that teleprompter away and he's embarrassing.  I felt that way when I liked him.

    Parent
    olbermann is an idiot (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Jack Frost on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:53:42 AM EST
    When are people going to realize that he is one-dimensional.   Even before the presidential primaries when i was so anti-fox news that i watched msnbc all day, i knew there was something hollow about his show. There were never any opposing points of view , only guests agreeing with each other. It was weird. And he still does that.  

    He makes liberals look bad.. I might even venture to say he is a pretty good anti-liberal campaign

    Over 100 posts and I can't believe ... (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:03:26 AM EST
    no one has quoted this line from KO:

    John Dean is the smartest person I've ever met.

    So many punchlines spring to mind, I can't pick just one.

    KO needs to get out more, doesn't he? (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:05:24 AM EST
    Dean had 'Deep throat' identity all wrong (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:41:15 AM EST
    I read his book 'Unmasking Deep Throat' a couple of years ago, before Mark Felt came out, and he categorically dismissed Mark Felt from consideration in the first 2 chapters.

    So either he was deliberately trying to muddy the waters, or he is, to say the least, not the brightest guy in the world.

    Parent

    late to the thread (5.00 / 5) (#125)
    by Turkana on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:27:51 AM EST
    but the list of recommenders of that diary ought to be saved. they have helped make daily kos what it is today. i'm glad olbermann found a nice hive of sycophants for when his fragile ego gets dinged.

    Did you cross reference with the speakers' list (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:19:32 AM EST
    ...  yet at Yearly Kos aka Netroots Nation?

    (I ran from Cheetoh HQ screaming back when all the small-donor seeking candidates started arriving en masse.)

    Parent

    Democrats "caved anyway"... (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:37:06 AM EST
     
    Olbermann's said that Obama's non-support of the effort to derail FISA didn't matter. He praised Obama's inaction saying that it would have been
    "a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway."

    It doesn't occur to Keith that that is what leadership is supposed to be about. Leading.

    Clinton and Obama both let this happen.
    But Obama is being handed the nomination, so I focus on him.

    Democrats wouldn't be so prone to cave if they had leadership with some substance and conviction. We have leadership that possesses neither of these qualities.

    Keith's assertion, in letting Obama off the hook, is that he sees a  "President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally".

    We'll all be waiting for that, Keith.


    Clinton and Obama BOTH let this happen (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:33:11 AM EST
    ....  do you honestly believe that Clinton is allowed to vote differently than Obama on any issuembetween now and the general election?

    Wouldn't the Clinton bashers just LOVE that.  She would get another "special comment" for trying to upstage the "presumptive nominee".  It would be analyzed by every cable talking head for days to wring every possible evil interpretation out of it.

    Parent

    It appears that not only (none / 0) (#169)
    by pie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:52:07 AM EST
    would she be voting differently than Obama, but in the minority of senate dems.

    Sad.

    Parent

    So now Obama is also to blame (none / 0) (#186)
    by riddlerandy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:08:15 AM EST
    for votes by Hillary you disagree with?  Now THAT is rich.

    Parent
    It's like watching the faithful rationalizing (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:42:37 AM EST
    God's will after a disaster.

    If Obama spat in Olbermann's eye, Olbermann would thank him because his eye was a little dry anyway, and surely Obama in his omniscience must have been aware of this and responded to Olbermann's need as compassionately and expeditiously as possible.

    Olbermann has jumped the shark so many times the shark thinks Keith's a remora.

    Perfect analogy (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:22:06 AM EST
    Obama works in mysterious ways?

    supposed to be a reply to kempis (none / 0) (#153)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:22:47 AM EST
    4th of July ACTION: Is your Senator coming home? (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:00:55 AM EST
    Check their websites, google news, look for appearances in the State. If they're marching in the July 4th Parade, bring signs, maybe even cut up old tapes as confetti.

    Print out a copy of the bill, (114 page pdf), ask if they've read it yet, and if not present your copy.

    Even if you can't find an appearance near you, go for a visible presence at the Parade, Picnic, Fireworks display, pass out the Senator's contact info with a plrea to call.

    Shameful (none / 0) (#166)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:43:47 AM EST
    that the people had to beg and plead with a Constitutional lawyer and lecturer to uphold the Constitution.

    And then Obama sided with the Telcoms that sponsor the media that promotes him and the Democratic brand.
    One big happy family!
    And Obama will do what?!? with the Telcoms when he's president? ha!

    Parent

    Amusing (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by jarober on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:23:12 AM EST
    I find it amusing to watch the left take note of Olbermann's hackery.  Is it obvious now that he has no real principles, and just loves Obama?  

    Did you just start reading this blog? (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:15:53 AM EST
    To Be Polite, None of It Scans (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Pol C on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:36:52 AM EST
    Oh, yeah, Olbermann barely knows who Glenn Greenwald is.

    Sorry, but that just doesn't scan. (I'd use a more profane expression, but it's against the rules.) The segments with which Olbermann built his cred with the left were almost completely derived from Greenwald's writing on Bush, FISA, and other topics. I distinctly remember reading Greenwald's blog on Salon during the day and then seeing Olbermann making the exact same arguments when he dealt with the topic that evening.

    And Dean's argument about FISA is so foolish. As if the telecom legal departments aren't going to be going through the final legislation with a microscope. As if the telecoms aren't going to be petitioning Bush for a pardon if they're the least bit concerned about prosecution. And as if Bush isn't going to issue that pardon--he may do it even if they petition him or not.

    When I watched Dean, my immediate impression was that he was half-heartedly trying to talk himself into the view that Obama was still one of the good guys on this. Like he didn't want to accept that Obama was either a pusillanimous coward or an aspiring tyrant who wanted this authority for himself.

    By the way, what the hell is Olbermann doing promoting his show and posting diaries on a rabidly partisan political Web site? One that's so declasse that commenters have license to respond to opinions they don't like with, among other things, videos and images of defecating animals? One would think Steve Capus and Phil Griffin would be throwing fits. There seem to be no standards or guidelines governing the behavior of on-air talent at NBC News.


    And what will Keith (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by pie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:42:32 AM EST
    (and the Obama supporters parroting the same line) say if and when a President obama doesn't prosecute the telecoms at all but actually embraces the new FISA legislation?

    It's not that I don't think ay president might not do the same; it's the insistence that Obama will somehow do what people want him to do here!!

    He's a politician.  Once (and if) he's elected, he'll do exactly what he wants.  Based on his thin resume and current advisors, this worries me just a bit.

    what?!? (none / 0) (#168)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:48:22 AM EST
    are you implying you're skeptical of puppets?
    ;>


    Parent
    After the Cheney/Bush show? (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by pie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:53:12 AM EST
    You betcha.

    Parent
    People with huge egos are so, so (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:08:37 AM EST
    predictable, so it doesn't surprise me at all that Olbermann took the bait on this.

    What's making me laugh is that he reveals that the limits of his self-vaunted intelligence are not as infinite as he wants people to think, and he reinforces and makes worse the already-terrible case he made for Obama coming out in support of a bill that improves on the Protect America Act in the same way that pretty much anything beats a sharp stick in the eye.

    I don't have cable or satellite, so I don't see KO unless there's a clip or a YouTube posted, but that's okay; with what I have seen, I sometimes have to ask myself if it's real or an SNL parody.

    Olbermann's (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:13:06 AM EST
    "casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway".

    Maybe they caved because they saw that the leader, in his silence on the issue, was going to cave and make them the fool out on the limb.


    Exactly (none / 0) (#180)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:44:59 AM EST
    I think plenty of Dems followed Obama's lead on this. If he had fought it, they would have too.

    Parent
    It's Hilarious that KO thinks he c/should host MTP (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:45:03 AM EST
    It is as absurd as Rush Limbaugh hosting MTP.

    The Only thing WORSE Than Olbermann... (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by northeast73 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:09:49 AM EST
    ...are the TOOLS who post comments on hid DKOS diary.

    They worship.  They adore.  They say "we love you keith".  They have KO quotes in their signatures.  Its disgusting.

    They do it to Obama too.  One even wrote "Keith is right, we need to just fully trust Obama that he'll do the right thing in office...."

    Jeesh...we're doomed.

    Media Matters on Liberal bias? (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by fctchekr on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:28:03 AM EST
    There isn't any! Despite the fact that millions of so-called Liberals think there is. The news is not the news anymore, it's been propagandized.

    Media Matters says: News outlets including CNN cited a study of several major media outlets by a UCLA political scientist and a University of Missouri-Columbia economist purporting to "show a strong liberal bias." But the study employed a measure of "bias" so problematic that its findings are next to useless, and the authors -- both former fellows at conservative think tanks cited in the study to illustrate liberal bias -- seem unaware of the substantial scholarly work that exists on the topic.

    http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220003

    Oblermann's Copying of GG (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:37:01 AM EST
    I distinctly remember reading Greenwald's blog on Salon during the day and then seeing Olbermann making the exact same arguments when he dealt with the topic that evening.

    LOL, yep PolC--absolutely. It never bothered me, it made me glad that KO was pulling from one of the more brilliant minds in the blogosphere--but for him to deny it now is lame lame lame.

    It didn't bother me much either (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Pol C on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:44:47 AM EST
    In the world of media and the arts, the big guys always steal from the little guys. To pick an example from film, Stanley Kubrick took a number of visual ideas from Ed Emshwiller in the famous "Stargate" sequence in 2001. It's a natural progression in the acceptance of said ideas in the culture. That said, it does bother me when the big guy gets credit at the expense of the little guy, and it thoroughly pisses me off when the big guy goes out of his or her way to claim ignorance of the little guy in the first place.


    Parent
    I wonder if anyone will ask him (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:57:25 PM EST
    if Glenn Greenwald ever compiled an enemies list for Richard Nixon?

    Par for the course.

    heh (none / 0) (#10)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:03:53 PM EST
    Yes, life long Dems, thoughtful chaps all are so much less than a GOP refugee.  Hell let's turn the party over to the people who ran away from the Republicans.

    Parent
    For KO acting a buffoon is similar to (none / 0) (#2)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:58:46 PM EST
    eating peanuts....it is soooooooooo hard to quit!

    OTOH (none / 0) (#77)
    by A little night musing on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:03:57 AM EST
    25 Glenn Greenwalds = maybe 26 Keith Olbermanns

    I wonder how that translates my otherwise weak retirement investments... 5 cents on the dollar?

    Not so long ago I was feeling good, compared to my elder colleague who put nothing into retirement and had to rely on SS....

    Greenwalds are worth far more (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by kredwyn on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:30:44 AM EST
    than Olbermanns.

    Parent
    This will seem overly-insensitive (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:10:48 AM EST
    But I'm a little distrustful of an author leaping into reverential words about the deceased is such a non-sequitorial fashion.

    Olbermann dose us all a favor because he is (none / 0) (#183)
    by Salt on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:54:58 AM EST

    of the Washington Post Co. is not one of the worst biased ugly and false reporting and certainly less accurate than KO with more circulation they Keithy could ever dream to be...In fact their is no contest the NBC-MSNBC-Newsweek-WAPO Triage has been the root of the Clinton hate and distortion and divisive politics as usual, recall they also loved Bush fresh face could have a beer with and Iraq Shock and Awe and share their main editor who allowed a false report that caused a violence outbreak and death in Beloved by the left as Obama's Hannity he and the pundits at CNN did us all a favor they proved they have no creditability as journalist or ability or ethics and are little more than tabloid trash talking heads no one listens.  

    Alter, well I wrote him off with his Hillary is dead rant on Charlie Rose before the NH vote and his after story of we don't need no more stinking women just more men boo hoo editorial following O's loss in NH. Alter like Kennedy and Russert are politics at their most biased old school boys club and IMO anti women, with little more than divisive discourse spewing forth. Newsweek I would place first even before KO's stupidity as my personal worst, however, well the WAPO Co. lets not forget the newspaper print side, I canceled my subscriptions when they hired Rove, as for  GE, MSNBC parent, I won't buy a light bulb or an appliance from a switch for me my own personal protest. I certainly do not watch or read either but the only way to get rid of this politics trash is to drive it out and call it out as BTD does but lets not pretend Newsweek as part of the Washington Post Co. is not one of the worst biased ugly and false reporting and certainly less accurate than KO with more circulation they Keithy could ever dream to be...In fact their is no contest the NBC-MSNBC-Newsweek-WAPO Political reporting Triage has been the root of the Clinton hate and distortion and divisive politics as usual, recall they also loved Bush fresh face a guy they said you could have a beer with pro Iraq Shock and Awe and also share their former news editor who allowed a false report that caused a violence outbreak and death in Afghanistan before retracting the story completely.    When you lay down with dogs......


    "what a hillarious diatribe" (none / 0) (#190)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:14:45 AM EST
    That phrase would describe everything Olber-bama writes.

    Greenwald replies to Olbermann (none / 0) (#193)
    by Pol C on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:25:07 AM EST
    I was never as thrilled with (none / 0) (#194)
    by Montague on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:27:56 AM EST
    Olbermann as so many seemed to be.  Although he deserves credit for lambasting Bush when few others in the MSM would do so, he was always quite pompous.  I cringed at his attempts to imitate the gestures of Murrow as channeled through Strathairn (who did an excellent job).

    He totally jumped the shark in this primary.  Having helped defeat the Democrat with the best chance of winning the GE, now he bellyaches about how it's okay for Obama to pander so that McCain doesn't win.

    Well, there's the problem! (none / 0) (#197)
    by OxyCon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:39:09 AM EST
    It seems that the only blog Obamamann reads is DailyKos.
    That explains alot.

    Marketing (none / 0) (#201)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:06:29 AM EST
    Olbermann was a marketing strategy that ran away with itself. After years of wallowing at the bottom of the ratings pool, early Olbermann offered them a glimmer of hope. Sadly they made the decision that if a little was good, a lot would be great. They unleashed the monster. Now they're still at the bottom of the ratings pile and destroyed any semblence of credibility.