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Olbermann On Greenwald

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Media
Posted on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:52:56 PM EST
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What a hilarious diatribe:

I think John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds (maybe 26 Keith Olbermanns). Thus, as I phrased it on the air tonight, obviously Obama kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

. . . I don't know much about Mr. Greenwald and I didn't read his full piece, but I do know that the snippet he's taken out of the transcript of my conversation with Jon Alter last night makes it sound like I was saying defying the left was a good thing. I was actually contrasting it to not cowering to the Republicans, simply as a different thing. . . .

Sure you did Keith. Sure. Those of us who saw the segment know a bit better than that. And excuse me, John Dean is no Glenn Greenwald and no one who knows Glenn's work would even think to say such a thing. Unless of course you are a Keith Olbermann and what that has come to mean - Obama's O'Reilly. The man is a farce.

Speaking for me only

< Helping the Wrongly Convicted | Greenwald's Response To Olbermann >

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    Olbermann On Greenwald | 197 comments (197 topical)
    John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds ??? (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:59:37 PM EST
    OMFG!

    As I wrote on an earlier thread, my (intelligent) conservative friend has long been trying to convince me that KO is just not a friend, just unhinged.

    I've been convinced.

    Up is down. Right is left.

    I visited a friend last night who still watches (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:09 PM EST
    Olbermann. I swear, I got the same reaction watching him as I do watching Sean Hannity (which is quite rare.)

    [ Parent ]
    Give Dean his due: (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by magnetics on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:13:36 PM EST
    I remember hearing him during the Watergate hearings -- I was a Chemistry graduate student at the time, and we had a radio on in the lab.  When  Dean started to out the Nixonian wrongdoing and wrongdoers, there was a quiet conviction in his voice, as if a minor saint were quietly, patiently, reciting scripture.  It was, dare I say it, almost heartstopping. In a season in which no Republican had done anything but lie (some things don't change much) you knew Dean was telling the truth.

    He had a large part to play upon the stage of the Nation's history, and he wound up doing it honorably.  How many of us have had the same opportunity?  Which of us would do as well?  I'm not sure I would.

    [ Parent ]

    You must be joking (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:18:41 PM EST
    Dean did not act honorably. He cut a deal.

    Look, I am glad he did and Dean says some interesting things sometimes but to make a hero if John Dean is to perverse for words.

    And his argument on FISA is beyond childish, it is delusional. It is a truly one of the most idiotic theories ever propounded on television, and that is saying something. It is an embarrassment.

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you, thank you -- I begin to wonder (5.00 / 6) (#39)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:28 PM EST
    these days whether I am the only who remembers that KO's hero John Dean participated in the crimes of Watergate.  Per Wikipedia (not always the best source but a quick one and accurate in this case in its summary):
    As White House Counsel, he became deeply involved in events leading up to the Watergate burglaries and the subsequent Watergate scandal cover up, even referred to as "master manipulator of the cover up" by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). He was convicted of multiple felonies as a result of Watergate, and went on to become a key witness for the prosecution, resulting in a reduction of his time in jail.


    [ Parent ]
    You're not the only one... (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by A little night musing on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:19:10 AM EST
    What I recall is that the Watergate hearings made heroes of some lawyers...

    Made us think the Law could be a force for good.

    That was just about the last time in my lifetime... sad...

    [ Parent ]

    The same could be said (5.00 / 4) (#159)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:16:42 AM EST
    by those of us who went into journalism then, because of Woodward and Bernstein.  Truly sad!

    And truly a lifetime ago.  

    [ Parent ]

    and turns out woodward and bernstein (5.00 / 2) (#191)
    by sancho on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:15:33 AM EST
    were not heroes (any more than dean was), just stenographers for a faction of the FBI (mark felt). puts woodward's later work (and modern journalism) into appropriatee context.

    [ Parent ]
    State of education isn't too good, (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:26:21 AM EST
    I gather.  Although I didn't realize John Dean (John Dean!!!) was on TV now.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, you oughta see how U.S. history texts (none / 0) (#199)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:55:04 AM EST
    deal with Watergate -- as with so many crucial events and issues in recent decades.  The cost to authors of appeasing Texas to sell textbooks . . . the cost to the integrity of such authors . . . the cost to us all, as can be seen in the younger generation's uneducated agreement with the version of recent history as sold by a certain candidate. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    If Only You Would (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by talex on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:15:15 AM EST
    come down on Obama like you do Olbermann and others then it would all mean something.

    You promised to come down on Clinton yesterday if she voted for cloture but when it came to Obama if  he did the same...

    Crickets.

    [ Parent ]

    luckily Nixon taped himself. (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:17 PM EST
    C*cks*ck*ng c*mmie press, and those F*cking Kennedy B*st*rds, scr*w em all the Mucking papist swines!!! Where's my Scotch?

    Surveilance works both ways.

    [ Parent ]

    John Dean will (none / 0) (#157)
    by camellia on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:14:23 AM EST
    always have my utmost respect for what he did then.  To watch this soft-spoken man spelling out the depravity of the Nixon administration was to see quiet courage.  Doesn't matter what he's done since, as far as I'm concerned.

    [ Parent ]
    This is pretty funny stuff.. (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by daria g on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:00 AM EST
    I've been reading Greenwald for a long time..
    The first few paragraphs of Olbermann's diary tell me he doesn't bother to check his facts or to go back and check what was said, and doesn't care, either.  What kind of journalist does he pretend to be, now?  

    I would think it would be pretty embarrassing to go to the trouble of writing a lengthy piece to respond to Greenwald, while at the same time declaring that he isn't important and you don't know who he is and don't read him?  This makes no sense, unless one assumes that the only guiding principles for Keith Olbermann are that Keith Olbermann is always right, and Barack Obama is always right, and if the two of these seem to be in conflict, both of them have always been right.

    [ Parent ]

    You'd think (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by suki on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:02:39 AM EST
    but when you're a clown, nothing can embarrass you.
    When you've turned yourself into a clown, you can reduce anything to an 'Oh, yeah? Well, mine's bigger than yours!' argument.
    Pretty soon he'll be making balloon animals on the air.

    [ Parent ]
    Olbermann is such a tool.... (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:01:29 AM EST
    When I started to type "Olbermann" on the subject line of this post, the magic of Windows saved me the trouble by suggesting a post title I'd already used before. I'm sure it will continue to come in handy.

    [ Parent ]
    What a whiny, wandering, and (5.00 / 9) (#4)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:59:56 PM EST
    just weird piece of work from KO at that link.  There's a lot of anger between the lines there.  He doesn't sound like he likes DKos much anymore.

    Awwww.

    I almost feel bad for him. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:25 PM EST
    Glenn Greenwald is about to really embarass him.

    [ Parent ]
    YES. (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by Marco21 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:41:40 PM EST
    I hope Keith has a stockpile of Bactine.

    He is gonna get bunred for this BS.

    [ Parent ]

    I just read it and he doesn't even have an.. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by rjarnold on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:51:58 PM EST
    actual argument, it is just an appeal to authority. He doesn't even know what he is talking about. And he doesn't even know that there is a contradiction in his opinions.

    This guy is an embarrasment to liberals.

    [ Parent ]

    There's nothing intrinsically wrong (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:54:21 PM EST
    with appealing to authority. You just have to make sure it's relevant and, um, actually an authority on the subject under discussion.

    But Olberman just likes Dean and his talk show.

    [ Parent ]

    Why an embarrassment to liberals? (5.00 / 7) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:54:50 PM EST
    I say he is an embarrassment to cultists.

    [ Parent ]
    He's an (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:04:27 AM EST
    embarassment to liberals because there aren't enough people like you and Greenwald kneecapping him.

    [ Parent ]
    Difficult to distinguish the two these days (5.00 / 3) (#151)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:21:23 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    point taken (none / 0) (#75)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:01:35 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    i hope ko has money saved in the bank. (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:29:03 AM EST
    i somehow don't see him as a long term player. egos that fragile don't last long you know.

    [ Parent ]
    But he did explain it (5.00 / 10) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:39:35 PM EST
    [A]nybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

    See OTHER Dems caved, not Obama. Perfectly reasonable in the world of Obama's O'Reilly.

    [ Parent ]

    He can't fight battles, (5.00 / 11) (#53)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:40:31 PM EST
    he's running for President!

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:40:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    God forbid he makes an exective decision. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:50:35 PM EST
    However being vgue means none gets too angry at you.

    [ Parent ]
    Flip Flopping crudely (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:51:39 PM EST
    means you never have anyone to turn to. Well, unless you have your very own cult, complete with TV talk channel. . .

    [ Parent ]
    but the seal says it all, right? (none / 0) (#177)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:30:22 AM EST
    oh yeah, everyone laughed so hard, that is now gone. i must stay up on these things.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh he is fighting battles (none / 0) (#89)
    by talex on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:17:14 AM EST
    Just for the wrong side.

    [ Parent ]
    good god (none / 0) (#182)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:47:27 AM EST
    Obama was crowned the party leader a month ago.  Does KO think those other Senators aren't folowoing his lead?  Does he think McCaskill, to name just one, is going to oppose Obama on anything right now?  What a freaking idiot.

    [ Parent ]
    Shannon, c;mon. (5.00 / 5) (#56)
    by Marco21 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:42:59 PM EST
    Without a certain NY senator to rally against, Keith is forced to flail in the wind.

    [ Parent ]
    Ever notice that long-pants and short-pants media (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:16:21 AM EST
    ... desperately want each others' gigs? Why not everyone just trade pants?

    [ Parent ]
    Obama shouldn't pay any attention... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:01 PM EST
    ...to this pet issue.  It looks like a good excuse to dump Dkos and what-not in the lake.

    Funny thing (5.00 / 10) (#7)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:01:39 PM EST
    Obama has done so repeatedly, and still many of them don't get that.

    [ Parent ]
    This is likely to be ... (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:07:20 PM EST
    ...a bit ore high profile. This more paranoid stuff about surveilance seems to get the left more excited than UHC.

    [ Parent ]
    Not the left (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:29:17 AM EST
    Just Markos an the boyz. Then again Markos is the first to admit he has a bit of a libertarian in him(I do as well so I don't say that as a bad thing). The health care thing may not be as much of a priority thing because alot of times people don't realize how bad it is until they get shafted. Kos won his last battle with the insurance company due to his visibility. He got lucky. He may not be so lucky next time.

    [ Parent ]
    This is likely to be ...The Bolshies vs Kerensky (none / 0) (#16)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:13:32 PM EST
    although which is which.  I dunno. It makes me laugh to think about how all the boutique liberals creamed themselves over this charmingly sharp fellow called Obama.

    Indeed Kerensky is a good case study for the Dems in the upcoming years.  Kerensky kept fighting Germany and kept his government afloat with loans from the US and Britain, and was probably the closest thing to a Social Democrat Russia has ever had. Then the Kaiser trained in Lenin and Trotsky to perform a coup and barter a peace treaty.

    [ Parent ]

    ehhh (none / 0) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:19:31 PM EST
    I don't think that really holds. You know that we actually sent ground troops to fight in the Russian Civil War, right?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:23:06 PM EST
    There was a bounty for troops who volunteered.  The Britsh landed a Brigade of Royal Marines in Archagel to guard magazines and set up ana base camp for the Whites.

    One interesting story was the trains commandeered by  Czechs who terrorized the interior for months.

    Fascinatig littl moment in History.

    [ Parent ]

    Didn't hear that story (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:24:14 PM EST
    Interesting.

    [ Parent ]
    They had been captured... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29:36 PM EST
    ...in the Brusilov Offensive as Austrian troops.  When Russia surrendered to germany, they were released and then immediatly hired by Czarist officers to fight the Reds.  What they did was take over trains and fit them out in Mad Max style.

    [ Parent ]
    There are actual historical (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:13:15 AM EST
    reasons why the Soviets were paranoid about seemingly inoffensive countries like Czechoslovakia, and even Sweden and Poland, if you go back a little further.  (Not to mention the Russian Orthodox church establishment)

    [ Parent ]
    The beauty of it from Obama's side is that (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 05:16:15 AM EST
    he doesn't have to dump Dkos because he did that a couple of years ago and reconfirmed it during his Wallace interview on Fox just recently. Basically, like Farrakhan, Obama can't help who supports him.

    In reality, Obama publicly frequently shows his disdain for those who are so willing to be used as tools.

    [ Parent ]

    It was whiney! (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by vcmvo2 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:02:59 PM EST
    He really was feeling sorry for himself but he is pompous and self-referential even when he pretends he's talking about John Dean's opinions. I guess Olbermann hasn't heard anything but adulation in far too long...

    KO is a little thin-skinned it seems. (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Teresa on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:07:30 PM EST
    He really does believe that Obama sees a loophole and will use it once in office? Wow is all I can say.

    I think it can be argued that if he's caught the same hole in the bill that Dean has, his best course is actually to shut up and take the criticism and hope the Republicans don't see the loophole.

    If, or not, there is no way that is what Obama's motive is.

    Olbermann is just beyond analysis (5.00 / 11) (#14)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:12:40 PM EST
    He really is saying that his TV talk show has produced a better analysis of the situation than the ACLU and Glenn Greenwald.

    [ Parent ]
    Doesn't the rift suit Obama's purposes (none / 0) (#18)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:16:46 PM EST
    for the general?  This seems like a good place to pick a fight with the Lawyers.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh sure, (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:18:25 PM EST
    The more he Sister Souljahs, the better he'll do. At least, that's the traditional view. In a year like this, where you just can't discourage the left, I think it might be really right.

    [ Parent ]
    He did not Sistah Souljah (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:03 PM EST
    He blatantly flip flopped. It was bad politics.

    He gained NOTHING from this. Nothing.

    Indeed, the Right Wing is picking up the theme.

    [ Parent ]

    I did see that they're going after him (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:21:34 PM EST
    He's just being too obvious about moving to the center.

    I wonder what Feingold really thinks about all of this.

    [ Parent ]

    too obvious (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:29:47 PM EST
    Exactly. no nuance or subtlety. this was a terrible move politically.

    As opposed to the public finance flip flop.

    [ Parent ]

    I think the two go hand-in-hand (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:10:35 AM EST
    I'm not saying this is so, but the GOP can argue that the root of both Obama flipflops (public financing and FISA) is money. The telecoms have much money. Other donors who are NOT telecoms have much stock in telecoms. Telecom lawsuits would hurt the people who matter most in a world of the-sky-is-the-limit campaigning: big donors.

    So with both of those moves last week, Obama have the GOP an opportunity to hang a big ol' For Sale sign around his neck. Of course, that's ironic, coming from the party of unabashed corporatism, but that's the point: the GOP can be open about their concern for the wellbeing of telecoms and other corporate interests because it fits their ideology. Democrats, however, were once the party of regulations to protect consumers, workers, and the environment.

    But that may be changing now in the rebranding of the party into the "whatever daddy needs" party.

    [ Parent ]

    As of 2 weekends ago (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:31:02 AM EST
    Russ was seemingly not expecting his help. I asked him about the bill at the State D Convention. "Senator Dodd and I are going to do everything we can to stop it." His tone and bodylanguage not optimistic.

    [ Parent ]
    When was the last FISA poll? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:23:55 PM EST
    The last one I remember reading was some time ago.  Has there been a poll on public perception since? And what was the wording?

    [ Parent ]
    Wait (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:25:05 PM EST
    Now you want your guy to be poll tested?

    Heh, that's too much. Maybe he should hire Mark Penn.

    [ Parent ]

    It is completely valid (none / 0) (#38)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:30:27 PM EST
    Micropolling was not so much the issue with Penn, he was a horrible strategist.  There's no way Axelrod wasn't doing internal polling (we know, in fact, they were...everyone does).  BTD said he gained nothing.  That may or may not be true.  Doesn't change the fact that I oppose the FISA bill.  

     Theoretically he is "your guy," too, unless you are still living in primary mode or you're supporting McCain or going third party.

    [ Parent ]

    I said he LOSt something (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:36 PM EST
    and maybe a lot.

    this was a clear mistake.

    [ Parent ]

    Could have sworn... (none / 0) (#51)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:38:40 PM EST
    ...the post I was responding to said he gained nothing, but, regardless, I concur for the most part: it was a wrong move, and too obvious.

     

    [ Parent ]

    I certainly take no responsibility (none / 0) (#42)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:32:44 PM EST
    for his strategy.

    And honestly, of course they were polling the whole time. Any campaign with money does.

    [ Parent ]

    44-42 (none / 0) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:28:52 PM EST
    If favor of warrants. but no polling on telco immunity - which only two groups of people care about - the liberal activists and the telcos.

    the liberal activists are more important now.

    [ Parent ]

    libertarians too. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:37 AM EST
    The Reason guys are giving it more attention, and I've seen posts on Ron Paul lists pretty pissed at him for "Not Voting."

    [ Parent ]
    The press... (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:26:53 PM EST
    ...let him get away with these 180 degree shifts in position.  The Other candidates were never able to pin this obvious character flaw on Obama, in part because Obama understood he was immune from the gotchas.  So he kept saying stuff he did not believ to pander to the anti war crowd.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:17:38 AM EST
    the press let him get away with this stuff during the primary. Neither they nor the GOP are going to let him get away with it now. I guess this is what happens when you start believing in your own press.

    [ Parent ]
    yeah, that's true. i was channel surfing (none / 0) (#178)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:37:10 AM EST
    last night and i acually heard cnn commenting on the dustup between obama and the big hillary donors. i was shocked i tell you to hear cnn actually note that.

    [ Parent ]
    I expect we will hear (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:33:25 AM EST
    how he has flip flopped on gun control next. They've already hit on it for campaign finance.

    Obama is going to have a hard time convincing people that his positions are genuine.

    [ Parent ]

    If Obama wins this election, (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:06:06 AM EST
    then look for his style of politicking to take over for the next 30 years.  It will go into textbooks as an example of "How to win elections."

    Seriously.  Every candidate will start going back and forth on everything and no one will be able to figure out exactly where anyone stands.  Elections will become monumental jokes.  

    This will continue until someone figures out that they might be able to run on the basis of "New Politics" where they actually mean everything they say and stand by it.  And the new "New Politics" will be what the "Old Politics" were before the Obama "New Politics" took over.  

    ....At least, this is what my crystal ball is telling me....  ;-)  

    [ Parent ]

    Ha! (none / 0) (#127)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:37:46 AM EST
    This will continue until someone figures out that they might be able to run on the basis of "New Politics" where they actually mean everything they say and stand by it.  And the new "New Politics" will be what the "Old Politics" were before the Obama "New Politics" took over.
     

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

     Yeah, it is actually the same old politics, either way.  Politics is politics is politics.

     What hopefully ends in January is Bush politics, i.e., the imperial, 51% presidency.  But if you think political positioning is going away, well...it isn't.

    [ Parent ]

    Evidently not (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:43:35 AM EST
    Since there are a whole bunch of enablers nd excuse makers for polticians that behave in such a manner.

    Personally, I'm a big fan of principles. Pandering to obtain power..... not so much.

    [ Parent ]

    So... (none / 0) (#132)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:55:53 AM EST
    ...you were a Kucinich supporter?

    [ Parent ]
    No actually (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:10:15 AM EST
    I was a bit more pragmatic and chose Edwards. His stint in Senate was unimpressive but what he did AFTER that time in made me an admirer.

    I do admire Kuchinich though and did not ridicule him or his ideas. I personally boycotted the debates after they kicked him off the debates. The whole primary seemed very Survivoresque.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm a big fan of principles too. (none / 0) (#133)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:58:29 AM EST
    The pandering this season has been insane!!!

    It used to be that you would pander to one group on one issue and to a different group on a different issue.  

    This season we see pandering to opposing groups on the SAME issue!  This blows me away!  This is like being for and against the death penalty, for and against abortion, for and against religion in schools -- it's just crazy!  

    Obama just said that he was okay with the death penalty for raping a young child.  I fully expect him to come out against the death penalty for murder.

    Anyway, this election is one to watch.  If these tactics work, they'll be employed over and over for a few decades -- until everyone figures them out and grows disenchanted with the system.        

    [ Parent ]

    Color me disenchanted already (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:12:24 AM EST
    The last thing we need to be doing when we have lives on the line overseas and we are deeplyin the hole financially is treating the opportunityo effect change like it's some game show- with te grand prize being four years of power at the taxpayers expense.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm disenchanted too. (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:39:15 AM EST
    It seems we traded in the Democratic leadership in Congress and the Senate for clones who only say "yes."  

    [ Parent ]
    i don't think Obama's style of (none / 0) (#156)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:11:41 AM EST
    campaigning would work in the future a second time unless it is for another black candidate.  And, I'm not even sure that would work the second time around.

    [ Parent ]
    Well he's "straddling the issue" (none / 0) (#117)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:19:08 AM EST
    at the moment. Or that's the chattering I was hearing coming from the TeeVee. Maybe he'll fall off?

    [ Parent ]
    I've also heard some straddling on (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:05:37 AM EST
    NAFTA. Heh, makes me wonder if he's a circus performer or a presidential candidate with all the fancy footwork.

    [ Parent ]
    Wasn't NAFTA a Moonwalk? (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:15:52 AM EST
    or whatever that backwards dance slid is called, lol!~

    [ Parent ]
    Indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 06:15:31 AM EST
    He's filling up the swiftboat for the GOP all by himself.

    [ Parent ]
    I think FISA Flip Flop has hurt with (none / 0) (#184)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:57:52 AM EST
    college students. Friend of mine stopped in the East Village (lots of NYU students live there) to speak to group of students who were asking people to sign FISA-related petitions. They had been Obama supporters, and openly admitted to my friend that they did not realize who he really is.  I am concerned that the polls continue to be skewed in Obama's favor, and that the DNC, the Super Delegates and the Obama campaign may be allowing those polls to guide them.  The state by state polls, especially in states the Dems must carry in November, seem more reliable, and do not seem to show the same story.

    Obama is doing just what he accused Hillary of doing -- beefing up his national security credentials by running to the middle. But his going for "national security first" in his change of attitude on the FISA issue makes him so vulnerable to Repug attacks on this blatant flip flop.  

    Did anyone catch his statement yesterday in favor of the death penalty in child rape cases after the Supreme Court decision against it? McCain had come out disagreeing with the Supreme Court here too.  

    [ Parent ]

    Even if... (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by santarita on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:36:35 PM EST
    some stealth legal loophole did exist, what in Obama's record or in his philosophy of post-partisanship would give anyone any reasonable expectation that Pres. Obama would use such loophole?

    In short, with regard to Sen. Obama's apparent cave-in on FISA, Mr. Olbermann would be wise to find something else to talk about that won't make him defend something indefensible.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, this is going to be good! (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:20:59 PM EST
    Two netroots heroes in a catfight!

    A mismatch (5.00 / 14) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:27:34 PM EST
    Greenwald will humiliate him.

    [ Parent ]
    Agree... (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:08 PM EST
    This is a fight KO is better to walk away from while he still has his *ss.  I wouldn't want to argue with GG about the weather, but about Constitutional Law?  That is a big negatory from me.

    I'm sure the Regressives can just paint over Kerry's face on their extra sandals with Obama's mighty visage.  Hell, he has a ready made seal!

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Tis is GG's territory (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:36:53 PM EST
    But I could eviscerate Olbermann;s diary with little trouble in 120 minutes. I give you one example - this is the New Republic Syndrome personified:

    Thus, as I phrased it on the air tonight, obviously Obama kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally, instead of seeing a Senator Obama engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote in favor of civil litigation that isn't going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway.

    Steny Hoyer could not have said it better. Olbermannn doing a Hoyer imitation pretty much precludes him ever doing a Special Comment ever again - in a sane world. But Olbermann is farce so it will not stop him at all.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Hey... (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:46:41 PM EST
    do you wonder if KO has the guts to put him on the air?  I'd steal a satellite dish just to see that (my cable co. doesn't offer MSNBC, a fact that I used to hate, but I now realize that it was a blessing in disguise.)

    The basic point is people don't vote for sniveling cowards, even if they're effective, prepared, and intelligent sniveling cowards.  And the Dem Caucus almost to a person (with exceptions of course) are sniveling cowards.  Is there no "Golden Mean" between the utter stupidity of Shrub's doggedness and the sniveling cowardice of the Dems?  Let's freaking hope so.

    Did I mention Dems are sniveling cowards yet?  :)

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    I assure you that Olbermann (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48:16 PM EST
    does not have the guts to put on anyone who does not completely kiss up to him.

    [ Parent ]
    I know... (5.00 / 0) (#64)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:50:41 PM EST
    I forgot the snark tag!

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    given Olbermann's (none / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48:05 PM EST
    shift he thoroughly deserves everything that can be thrown at him. He's had it coming. At least it's a critique rooted in something leftish for once.

    [ Parent ]
    Y'know? It's strange... (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by kredwyn on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:38:09 AM EST
    I have never really considered myself a "leftist" before.

    But apparently I just got my teeth kicked in.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by daryl herbert on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:21:18 AM EST
    You can't humiliate someone who lacks a sense of shame.

    Even an army of Greenwalds couldn't force Olbermann to pay attention.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder which side Duncan is going to choose (none / 0) (#114)
    by Dan the Man on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:09:32 AM EST
    Hmmmm....

    [ Parent ]
    He is now the OO man. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jake Left on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:21:27 PM EST
    Thanks for he term. I will now only be able to think of him as Obama's O'Reilly. He can look you straight in the face and lie about what he just said. He is a fitting successor to Bill's mantle.

    Heh... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:25:59 PM EST
    He can look you straight in the face and lie about what he just said. He is a fitting successor to Bill's mantle.

     Sorry, can't resist: We talking about Barack or Keith?

    [ Parent ]

    Barackieth Olbama? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:31:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Specifically... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:32:56 PM EST
    ...referring to "successor" to "Bill."

    [ Parent ]
    For his next trick... (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by zebedee on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:24:16 PM EST
    ..I presume we'll hear from him this comment on Hillary's Iraq authorization vote:

    "Obviously Clinton kicked the left in the teeth by supporting the bill. But anybody who got as hot about this as I did would prefer to see a President Clinton dealing with Iraq, instead of seeing a Senator Clinton engender more "soft on terror" crap by casting a token vote against a bill that is going to pass since so many other Democrats caved anyway"

    Actually in that vote I'm not sure it even needed any democrates to cave in for it to pass

    keeping on the Nixon theme (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:31 PM EST
    He doesn't have Hillary to kick around anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD... (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by A little night musing on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:49:36 PM EST
    I just want to say this. Cause it's late, and I'm tired.

    You're a centrist, and I'm a DFH of the first order. I am an unashamed leftist. But no one has eyes more open than you, and I am above all an empiricist,

    I am grateful for all you do. And for your seemingly unending stamina.

    Tomorrow you'll make me think again, and I'll be mad, but glad.

    Dang you.

    I didn't ask you to approve. My comment (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by FemB4dem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:56:12 PM EST
    was about the Unity bash and how KO would react to PUMA protesters.  Debating the merits of PUMA in this thread would be OT.  Later, in an open thread, if you like.  But I think BTD already had a post on that topic awhile back.

    Speaking of KO and the Unity bash, part I, Larry Johnson is reporting over at NQ that Obama's  meeting with Hillary's fundraisers tonight bombed.  Much more understated, is Heidi Li's post and her promise of more tomorrow:

    link

    My guess is KO will have a lot to make a further fool of himself over tomorrow, and there will be much more Hillary bashing to come.  Stay tuned.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#73)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:43 AM EST
    Heidi Feldman was one of my professors in law school!  It's so funny to see her at the heart of this whole drama.  She is such a super-smart person I don't really have the words to describe it.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't know her, but IMO (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:13:32 AM EST
    she has been a great voice in all of this, just standing back and quietly saying let's help Hillary settle her debt, we owe her that much. For that reason, her follow-up comment (same link as above) just posted because she couldn't "sleep on it," packs a real wallop, IMO:

    "Senator Obama, however, left me cold. And since I will not be voting for Mr. McCain in November, I still do not feel I can, in good conscience, vote for Senator Obama.

    The most revealing moment of the evening: early in his remarks, Senator Obama told us he would have to be "extraodordinarily humble." Anybody who tells me he or she must be humble is telling me he or she is not about to be humble."

    Ouch!  So much for Unity.  KO is going to stroke out tomorrow, I'm guessing.

    [ Parent ]

    Heidi Li (none / 0) (#113)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:07:11 AM EST
    is Heidi Feldman?  No way.

    I think we may have gone to the same law school.  I never had her but she taught at my school.

    [ Parent ]

    Heidi's link is broken (none / 0) (#158)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:15:11 AM EST
    and eliminating one of the http's doesn't help.


    [ Parent ]
    Try this (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by tree on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:17:53 AM EST
    one.

    [ Parent ]
    thank you! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 08:23:02 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It's a daily read now for me (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    as Feldman has a similar voice to Jeralyn's -- but Feldman remains closer to the Clinton campaign, so we still can read reports from its perspective, and we still can get clues of where Clinton may be headed after all this.  And clues as to where the Democratic party may be heading.  Hint:  One has emerged from all this with integrity intact.

    [ Parent ]
    cnn reported on the "unity" dustup also. (none / 0) (#185)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:02:06 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hahaha (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:57:34 PM EST
    Yes, raise your hand if you can see a President Obama prosecuting the telecoms criminally!

    Yes, it's fun to believe that a safe, centrist campaign will be followed up by a flawless term in office doing nothing but the netroots' bidding, but please.  

    There's plenty of room to Bill Clinton's left for President Obama to have two successful terms.  Let's content ourselves with hoping for that, shall we, and not drive ourselves into a frenzy of unrealistic expectations.  Prosecuting the telecoms?!?  Bahahahaha!

    I do notbelie ve he believes it (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:59:16 PM EST
    do you? It is rationalizing for why the reincarnation of Edward R. Murrow can pretend to ignore the blatant flip flop and dishonesty from Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Somebody once said something (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:51 AM EST
    about someone else being like Ted Baxter. . .

    [ Parent ]
    I believe (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:02:45 AM EST
    that KO is a performer who cares about nothing but ratings and professional success.  Zip, zero, nada.

    His outreach to the netroots was astonishingly transparent from Day One.  He sees the Daily Kos crowd as his reliable niche audience, period.  Their agenda is his agenda.

    [ Parent ]

    Even some of the Kos crew (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:38:55 AM EST
    were intellectually honest enough to admit what Obama was doing- selling out.

    Olbermann is a used car salesman, and not even a very good one.

    He's selling a product. His product happens to be Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    If he cared about his professional (none / 0) (#106)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:10 AM EST
    success, wouldn't he stop getting his facts wrong so much of the time? Eventually he is going to become the most mocked news anchor ever, which is going to destroy his career.

    Also if he cared so much about ratings, why would he go crazy on Hillary, when according to some article his average viewer was a 59 year old woman?

    I think that he actually thinks this way. There are thousands of people on the internet that thinks like this, so it shouldn't be much of a shock when someone in the press thinks like this.

    [ Parent ]

    Raise your hand (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:00:09 AM EST
    if you think Obama's administration will have substantial policy differences from the second Clinton administration.

    [ Parent ]
    Considering he didn't consider (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by cawaltz on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 02:47:30 AM EST
    Clinton's presidency transformational enough, I don't see an Obama presidency as anything like a Clinton presidency, second term or otherwise.

    Obama has tied himself to "transformational" Reagan, unfortunately for him, I ain't a Reagan fan.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama has "tied himself" (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:24:51 AM EST
    Haven't his recent flip-flops shown that Obama hasn't "tied himself" to anything without using a "slip knot"?

    [ Parent ]
    Hmm (none / 0) (#78)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:05:07 AM EST
    The country is in a better place politically, there's going to be a strong Democratic majority in Congress.  There's plenty of room for good stuff to happen even without Obama suddenly emerging as a wild-eyed leftist hero.

    [ Parent ]
    That's my hope (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:06:13 AM EST
    But honestly, I'll settle for much less. It's what I'm prepared for.

    [ Parent ]
    As an independent I don't understand (none / 0) (#200)
    by kimsaw on Fri Jun 27