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On The PUMAs

As someone whose vote and support for Barack Obama for President in this election is unshakeable (I know what John McCain is and I want no part of a John McCain Presidency), I am decidedly NOT a fan of the PUMA movement. Indeed, I oppose it. But I was outraged by the behavior of the Media and the blogs towards Hillary Clinton and I will not soon forget what they did. John Cole, whose tin ear on the issues of sexism and misogyny is pretty well established, thinks that the PUMAs will not like this Rebecca Traister article. Since I am not a PUMA, I can not say for sure, but I know I liked these parts of the article:

. . . In reality, however, it's more that the other female politicians whose names are being bandied about (cough, Kathleen Sebelius, cough) seem like pallid substitutes, and the only reason Team Obama would even pick one is to placate stubborn Clinton supporters. It wouldn't placate them. But this is one of the facets of post-Clinton anger that puts Obama in a hell of a bind. Because the truth is that many of Clinton's most devoted supporters overcame their own ambivalence about her because they believed it was so important to establish a precedent, to break the glass ceiling and put a woman in a job that has never been filled by a woman before. A female vice president, especially a Democratic one, is not nothing. And everyone who watched the glee with which Clinton's failed bid was met should know that. But it's true that if Obama goes with a woman, and decides (as seems certain) not to tap Clinton herself, he must pick someone who has something more going for her than a pair of mams. He needs someone who generates heat of her own, who can energize a crowd, who can do something for him besides providing him with a gender credential. Who is that?

4. They are angry that we started to talk about sexism only once Clinton stopped being a threat.

Yes, it's great that we are finally having panels and conferences and news stories about the way in which Clinton's candidacy was met with an enormous amount of gendered antipathy from the media. (And for any of you sitting at your computers yammering about how the coverage of Clinton had nothing to do with her sex, allow me to be frank: can it.) Those discussions shouldn't stop. But it is painfully obvious that this was a conversation that could only be had once Clinton stopped threatening Obama's prospects, or men generally. This is really depressing.

5. They are angry at the media's repeated denial of sexism, and they are angry at Keith Olbermann.

The first should be quite obvious. In a New York Times story last week, members of the media heartily denied that there was any sexism in the way that Clinton was discussed. This in the face of zillions of examples of gender-fueled language both explicit (comparisons of Clinton to a nagging spouse, to an ex-wife outside of probate court, to Lorena Bobbitt, to a sexless monster, to Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction") and only slightly more subtle (the unabashed determination on the part of print and broadcast media to put her campaign down as early as possible, and the hyperactive joy they betrayed whenever that wish appeared to be coming true). To deny that this happened is foolish, and it doesn't make any of the eagle-eyed women who spotted Tucker Carlson crossing his legs in emasculated fear any less angry.

As for Olbermann, outrage at him has supplanted displeasure with Chris Matthews, perhaps because Matthews has been publicly excoriated for his bias, while Olbermann is still held up by many as a talking-head hero of the left. Of course, those surprised by Olbermann's clear distaste for Hillary Clinton, or the venom he directed at that nutsy Katie Couric, who meekly ventured that maybe there had been some media sexism during the race, obviously missed the time he once wondered on air if anyone had ever ejaculated on Paris Hilton's face. Olbermann's simultaneous tenacity on the side of good, coupled with his utter disinterest in gender equity, makes him emblematic of the unpleasant position in which Hillary-supporting feminists find themselves -- members of a progressive party that doesn't seem particularly interested in their progress.

(Emphasis supplied.) Personally, I think these paragraphs some of the best analysis of the situation I have yet seen. But I can not speak for PUMAs.

Indeed, I am speaking for me only in this post.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I'm PUMA, but the article misses so much. (5.00 / 18) (#1)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:54:06 AM EST
    Go ahead and object.

    had a conversation with a GOOPer (5.00 / 9) (#109)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:48:58 PM EST
    anfd they hate Obama even more than they hate her.

    well no they have contempt for him and fear of her.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm a PUMA (5.00 / 13) (#157)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:01:52 PM EST
    and the article had very little bearing on the real world feelings of PUMA's.

    Almost none.

    It's as if the woman interviewed ABSOLUTELY NO PUMA's.  It's as if she were trying to apply characteristics to PUMAs that simply AREN'T THERE.  It's as if she were a propagandist working for OBAMA.

    And I have no more right to object to BTD's non-PUMA status than BTD has a right to object to my PUMA status.  Our votes are our votes.  IMHO, voting for a person simply because they have a D next to their name is IMHO ridiculous.  But I'm not going to "object" to anyone's desire to do that.

    I'm an independent, and quite proud of that.


    [ Parent ]

    I wonder why they couldn't find a PUMA (5.00 / 10) (#196)
    by tree on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:16:16 PM EST
    leaning writer to write the article? Wouldn't that have assured a bit more accurate picture? Honestly, would a description of Obama supporters and how to understand them from a McCain-leaning writer be considered the best way to present the issue? I doubt it. More double standards.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm a sentient female human at that awkward age (5.00 / 11) (#232)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:56:55 PM EST
    ... between birth and brain-dead existence for fourteen years in a coma, kept alive by machine.

    In short, I'm the type of voter and supporter Dems and Republicans ignore -- except to threaten for my vote -- for my two counterparts coming and going from the planet.

    That profile of Clinton supporters reflected me not at al. I haven't signed up with PUMA but I won't be told what my thoughts and feelings are by either party or Obot twerps getting their pscycho-caca off an iPhone.

    Good grief the load of sh!t I've heard in the past month taxes all credulity.

    I simply won't be threatened by anyone dangling hostage my inalienable reproductive rights. Their "offer" is self-defeating.

    If they have the time to attempt to bully or guilt me, they have the time to stand beside me and FIGHT FOR MY F*CKING HUMAN RIGHTS.

    If they don't, they have no business talking to me about SCOTUS or what Obama or McCain will do if he gets into office.

    I can vote for either or neither.

    [ Parent ]

    another observation (5.00 / 8) (#3)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:01:29 PM EST
    if one truly cared about unity, one should be able to ....

    Still having a hard time not summing this up as anything more than "yes it was there, it was bad, and people who knew better wilfully went along with it, and we understand why you're angry, but we implore you now to get over it and not do anything about it."

    I'm a PUMA, but I'm not old or female (5.00 / 16) (#4)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:01:37 PM EST
    Traister is clueless about who PUMA's are and what motivates them.

    The only good thing about the piece is it was better than the companion article by Wally Shapiro, which was condescending and isnulting.

    Aye, Shapiro wins the day (5.00 / 9) (#9)
    by RonK Seattle on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:06:21 PM EST
    ... insofar as the Cluelessness Trophy is concerned.

    Busk up, Traister. It's a long season ... and there's always next year.

    [ Parent ]

    Me, too, although I disagree with your... (5.00 / 14) (#37)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:23:36 PM EST
    ...assessment of Traister. Given that the article was about why I'm angry, not why I'm not voting for Obama, I think that she was on target on a number of reasons. Only one applied to why I'm actually not voting for Obama. And I finally found out what PUMA means, and it fits me like a glove. I did disagree with her conclusion, though. I am not "kicking and screaming" (which sounds like something that a child with a temper tantrum would do, not a grown woman), and I don't see that I don't have options. Staying home is a valid option, and I can only hope that enough women feel that way to seriously get a message out to the Democratic Party - you can no longer take your largest constitutency for granted.

    The companion piece by Shapiro is beltway journalism at it's worst. Of course, he has not comported himself glowingly this entire election cycle.

    [ Parent ]

    Almost none of the reasons she gave (5.00 / 9) (#181)
    by myiq2xu on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:11:46 PM EST
    were even close to what I hear from PUMA's.

    We're mad about Mark Penn?  I've never heard that from a PUMA, but that was a big gripe of John Cole's about Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    She missed big on that one (5.00 / 4) (#199)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:16:52 PM EST
    And on hating Bill Clinton. But she nailed about 6 of the other reasons for my being angry. Only one actually applied to why I'm not voting for Obama, but she did get it. A lot of people are angry for different reasons.

    [ Parent ]
    Well PUMAs are like snowflakes (5.00 / 3) (#226)
    by tnjen on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:44:26 PM EST
    :) Seriously, one of the neater things about the PUMA movement is that is coming together from ground-up -- it is a true grassroots movement. Unlike a lot of other grassroots movements where people sit around and say we need a movement that deals with X this one was much more sui generis. It arose on its own in the hearts and minds of a gigantic mass of individuals and then a few people named it and are now trying to harness and organize it. When something arises so organically and spontaneously it's going to have the feel of what it is -- organized chaos that has tapped into a significant common bond. A clearer picture of what PUMAs believe as a whole will arise when more PUMAs and the intelligentsia of the PUMA movement sit down, listen to one another, compile, and articulate the broadest aspects of PUMA ideology and complaints.

    [ Parent ]
    to be fair (4.33 / 3) (#21)
    by airwon on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:15:09 PM EST
    To be fair to Traister, she doesn't say that all PUMAs are old and female.  She says,  
    To be fair, it's not just women. There are plenty of Clinton supporters of every demographic description who are still ticked. But yes, it's true that the Clinton base skewed female, and that women over 30 are the most vocal of the malcontents. Some of them are calling themselves "PUMAs"

    I think that she has a lot of empathy for PUMA.

    [ Parent ]

    The way it's written sounds like (5.00 / 4) (#40)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:26:02 PM EST
    only vocal over 30 females are calling themselves PUMA's though.

    [ Parent ]
    It's More Than 'Ticked' (5.00 / 20) (#170)
    by talex on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:06:59 PM EST
    "There are plenty of Clinton supporters of every demographic description who are still ticked."

    'Ticked' doesn't cover all that PUMA's feel. It is also, and probably more so for a lot of us, about Obama himself. Not everyone supported Clinton because she was a woman. We supported her because she was and still is the better of the two candidates.

    We also supported her because we felt by intelligent observation that Obama was not a true Democrat. Our observations are now starting to become reality to all but the blind who refuse to see.

    It's More Than 'Ticked' because we know that Obama will destroy the Democratic Party not build it and move it forward. Obama is also weakening the grassroots by trying to consolidate all the money for himself by taking it away from people and organizations who have been working for much longer than he has even been in politics.

    That is why my vote and support, and many of our votes and support, are NOT for Barack Obama for President in this election - and that is unshakable.

    Pity to those who can't see, or refuse to see he is already destroying the party, not by winning the nomination, but by his actions after winning the nomination. The sad tale of the dismantling of decades of work has just begun.


    [ Parent ]

    I was surprised how many Salon readers... (5.00 / 9) (#211)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:27:04 PM EST
    ...were not planning on voting for Obama. Of course, Shapiro's article is pretty much a textbood case in how to convince people not to do waht you want them to do, but the letters on that were overwhelmingly "I won't vote for Obama". Usually I'm one of the few Clinton supporter's there in a crowd of Obama fans. I had assumed that Talk Left was more densely populated with spiritual PUMA's because of it's pro-Clinton position, but if the letters responding to Shapiro and Traister are any indication, the problem is much more widespread.

    [ Parent ]
    Could you expand (2.55 / 9) (#180)
    by anydemwilldo on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:11:40 PM EST
    I'll buy that Traister doesn't represent the true "PUMA logic" or whatever.  But at the same time, I haven't seen any treatment at anywhere near that level of clarity.

    I mean, from my perspective (and that of a huge chunk of other loyal democrats), it really does look a lot like plain old spite and fury.  We're stuck without a clue about what to do to please you guys, and would dearly love some guidance.  A nice, big essay like this, organized the same way, would go a long way to helping us out.  You seem to have your writing chops together, care to oblige?

    I'm serious; we want to be friends.  Help us out here.

    [ Parent ]

    There really is nothing (5.00 / 18) (#218)
    by talex on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:30:22 PM EST
    you can do. It's not about you "loyal democrats". It's about Obama himself and I partly summarized that in my post. The problem is that you can't see who he really is.

    Which makes your statement of you "and that of a huge chunk of other loyal democrats" kind of funny. You think if you vote Democrat no matter what that makes you loyal. It doesn't. What makes one loyal to the party is to not do something that will destroy the party.

    You are thinking short term. Others here are thinking long term. We don't want all the hard work people have put in over the decades unwound in one election. We don't want to be set back 10-15-20 years just because of one election.

    We don't want a guy who will bend like a weed to compromise and pacify the Republicans to water down health Care reform and thereby cementing that so called reform as the health care of the future. That is where people are short cited. They think if Obama wins, we win. We won't win. Healthcare won't win. Public education won't win. The fourth Amendment won't win. Listen to his words on those subject or watch his recent actions and you will see that what I say is the truth. The only thing that wins is post-partisanship which doesn't empower Democrats or Progressives. It empowers blue Dogs and Republicans in a so called Democrat Administration. Is that really what you want?

    [ Parent ]

    You say you do not want a (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:02:54 PM EST
    McCain presidency..yet..you continue to berate and be dissatisfied with Obama. Perhaps if you were a woman this sorted-type article bandied above would have put you over the top and teetered you on the fence about how to vote. I believe (and I'm not supporting McCain)that Obama is the one who is going to be most like Bush (arrogant, childish, inexperienced, and on and on)not McCain. We live in a dangerous time..that the media is in charge is off-putting and dangerous. I respect your postings a great deal, but I am hardpressed to understand this "supreme loyalty" to someone you consistently knock-down.

    Maybe (2.87 / 8) (#17)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:12:36 PM EST
    You are used to getting exactly what you want all of the time, but most of us are used to getting something close enough. Given the choices, Obama is closest to my values and certainly, nearly identical on issues to your favorite ex contender.

    Not sure what the problem is here, you seem to have lost all perspective on the election process for POTUS.

    [ Parent ]

    Close enough isn't good enough anymore (5.00 / 20) (#25)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:17:11 PM EST
    I'm through with settling. Over and over again the Democrats cave on issue after issu because they figure at the end of the day you'll settle because they are narrowly closer ideologically(at least as far as action if not in deed)then the GOP.

    There comes a time where you either tatoo WELCOME on your forehead and call yourself a doormat or you stand firm and say my values mean something Darnit enough with the lipservice.

    [ Parent ]

    Settling is the only choice, ever. (4.66 / 12) (#34)
    by RonK Seattle on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:23:07 PM EST
    Taking the long view of progressive interests, I'll settle for President McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    I love comments like these (3.20 / 5) (#41)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:26:47 PM EST
    The way to really achieve Progressive goals is to have John McCain elected.  

    Because what we really want is to screw the country up so bad that the only choice is radical change.  Sounds great.

    For those scoring at hime.

    John Mccain's American Conservative Union lifetime rating...... 83.

    Barack Obama's ACU lifetime rating..... 8.

    source

    [ Parent ]

    wonder how that rating has changed (5.00 / 17) (#49)
    by DJ on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:29:50 PM EST
    in the last two weeks

    FISA
    Public Finance
    NAFTA
    Preconditions

    [ Parent ]

    Some elements of the extreme Left (1.83 / 6) (#50)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:29:54 PM EST
    used to argue that the way to bring about a Socialist revolution would be by electing the most extreme, reactionary, right wing government possible. It is a view that does not carry any weight with me. One thing that isn't discussed much is the way that the Communists in the German parliament in the 1930s facilitated the delegitimization of the Center party. They would often vote with the Nazis on procedural motions in an attempt to scuttle the government. I don't have to tell the rest of the story.

    [ Parent ]
    Very true (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:36:50 PM EST
    Radicals understand that the only way to achieve their objectives, or gain power, is to create an unacceptable environment.  

    I have no use for radicals whatsoever.  Perfect is the enemy of good and radicals always demand absolute adherence to their principles.

    [ Parent ]

    Remember (5.00 / 10) (#146)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:57:44 PM EST
    carter was more radical than Clinton.

    You can try with others but painting me as a radical will prove you to be quite silly.

    This is no overton window deal.   This is about people finally figuring out that there is more to politics than an ideological pissing match.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh please, (5.00 / 8) (#90)
    by dk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:43:15 PM EST
    are you comparing McCain to the Communists or the Nazis?  Now who is being irrational.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm discussing the apparent strategy here (2.37 / 8) (#100)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:45:41 PM EST
    Unless you articulate why you want McCain to win, and why you think he would be a more progressive choice, you have no argument.

    [ Parent ]
    That is absurd. (5.00 / 23) (#137)
    by dk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:55:30 PM EST
    You just have a different metric.  Some people think that the corruption in the Democratic party, typified by the handing of the nomination to Obama, is so awful that short term sacrifice may be required to reach long term goals.  I understand very well that you disagree with this.  But to call people irrational for not agreeing you is very poor style.  It is a lazy retort.

    [ Parent ]
    I will vote for McCain (4.33 / 18) (#120)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:51:28 PM EST
    because I have no intention of rewarding Obama and the DNC for their behavior in the primaries.  PERIOD

    If we reward their behavior this time, what will stop them from doing it again?

    Obama is already employing the "race card" tactics that worked against Clinton on McCain.  In fact he is perfecting it now.  He hasn't even waited for McCain to say anything Obama could twist into racism.  He's just going out there now and warning people that McCain WILL play the race-card.  So now we have Obama playing the "pre-emptive" race-card.

    [ Parent ]

    The point is that if you don't settle, you'll get (3.28 / 7) (#33)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:22:52 PM EST
    a worse deal than if you do.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 18) (#43)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:28:00 PM EST
    I guess the argument that being stabbed in the back is better than being stabbed in the chest may work for some. I'm not so sure.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't believe it (5.00 / 36) (#55)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:31:29 PM EST
    In terms of sexism, in terms of hating women, in terms of support of hatred of women, I don't see that McCain is worse than Obama.  I don't see a worse deal.

    I'm urged to be a single issue voter on choice because that presumably benefits Obama. I'm told that I have to ignore all my other issues with Obama's own sexism, his use of sexism, his utter failure to stand up to sexism, and his win because of sexism.  Vote for choice! I'm told.

    But when I become a single issue voter on sexism and see no substantive difference between McCain and Obama, I'm excoriated for being that single issue voter because it doesn't benefit Obama.  Take the long view! I'm told.

    Well I am taking the long view:  standing up to sexism, right here right now, is the only way to protect choice.  Standing up to what was done to Clinton and every woman who supports or supported her is the only way to protect women's equality.  Because if we don't stand up to the sexism, we will continue to get what we have gotten from the Dems since time immemorial:  lip service to women's equality.

    I do not, for the life of me, understand how I'm supposed to give any credence to Obama's words about choice and women's equality after what he participated in during this primary season.  Now is the time to stand up exactly because of Obama's behavior. Now is the time to send the message because of what Obama has done and not done.  I didn't make this the time.  Obama did.

    [ Parent ]

    what exactly did Obama (3.00 / 6) (#79)
    by tben on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:40:33 PM EST
    do that you find so outrageous that you would torpedo the entire progressive agenda?

    [ Parent ]
    What progressive agenda is Obama supportive of? (5.00 / 17) (#94)
    by kempis on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:44:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    the one Hillary supports (2.33 / 3) (#201)
    by tben on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:18:16 PM EST
    obviously

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, please. (5.00 / 7) (#108)
    by pie on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:48:50 PM EST
    What progressive agenda would that be?

    You guys are just making it up.

    [ Parent ]

    ask your favorite politician (2.33 / 6) (#206)
    by tben on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:22:09 PM EST
    what SHE supports.
    Then tell us all why you (if you are one of these puma people) are determined to work against what Hillary is working for.

    Strange way to show your undying support for a politician - to go to work for the person that she will be working agaisnt.

    [ Parent ]

    Frankly, if you see no difference (2.90 / 11) (#59)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:33:12 PM EST
    between McCain and Obama, then I would suggest that you're letting anger cloud your vision.

    I can see there's no discussing this rationally with you.

    [ Parent ]

    Right (5.00 / 28) (#95)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:44:28 PM EST
    It's about me being irrational b/c I disagree with you.  

    In terms of sexism, I see no difference between McCain and Obama exactly b/c Obama colluded in, used, and participated in blatant, outrageous, horrifying sexism against Hillary and her supporters to become the Dem nominee.

    That you disagree with that doesn't make me irrational.  It makes me committed to something you're not committed to.


    [ Parent ]

    Misreading of the data (2.66 / 6) (#177)
    by rilkefan on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:08:39 PM EST
    The Obama campaign did stay silent while HRC was getting smeared, but they did extremely little direct smearing of a gendered sort (the race stuff they did was worse).  Obama and HRC were engaged in a tough primary.  He's a pol, not a messiah.

    And Obama has a long history of being excellent on women's issues; McCain has a long history of being very conservative.  Obama married a strong partner who's been outspoken this campaign; McCain's wife walks behind him.  Obama says he wouldn't want his daughters to be punished with unwanted pregnancy; McCain will appoint more Scalias to the court.  Obama is endorsed by HRC; McCain is endorsed by the Moral Majority.

    And, well, Obama is a brilliant person and an excellent politician with a slew of smart policies; McCain is another party guy who came into money and wants to be president without knowing very much.

    [ Parent ]

    As soon as you said (5.00 / 21) (#191)
    by dk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:13:15 PM EST
    Obama has a long history of something I tuned out.  Obama does not have a long history on any political issue.  He has very little history.  That is one of the big problems.

    [ Parent ]
    As soon as you said (3.00 / 2) (#212)
    by rilkefan on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:27:27 PM EST
    "As soon as you said" I knew you didn't want to actually engage in reasoned discussion.  A decade is a long time.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm Going to Disagree Slightly (5.00 / 10) (#208)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    Obama has an solid voting record on women's issues.  However, he often talks about such issues using right-wing framing, which undermines public support, IMO.  And as I've asked before, if you can name one women's issue he's ever spent any political capital to advance, ever did anything other than show up and vote the right way, I'd appreciate it (I mean that sincerely).  Because I'm unaware of one.

    Obama on women's rights, tends to be like Obama on everything else. If you read his policies on his website (good luck finding the "women" area, last I look it was tricky to locate) they aren't bad, but if you listen to him, he's squishy, preferring to couch support for progressive issues in conservative rhetoric, like he does with so many other things.

    Does that make him worse than McCain, who is outright hostile to women's issues?  No.  But given that women make up the majority of voters and that no Democrat wins dogcatcher, much less the presidency without winning women, I'm kind of sick of having to accept this crap from leading Democrats.  

    Not sure I agree that Cindy McCain walks behind her husband, either.  There's a reason they file separate tax returns and that's because she's kept control of her money.  She may give him some for his campaign, but that's what she's doing giving it to him - because it's her money, not their money.  And I know he called her that awful word, but that doesn't mean she has no power.  It could mean that, but it could also mean that he's resorted to name calling because HE has no power.  John McCain would be nothing without Cindy's money and I suspect she knows it. So while she does seem to play the loyal wife in public, I'm unconvinced she takes a back seat to him in private.  

    [ Parent ]

    But That's Not What This Is About (5.00 / 22) (#152)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    At least not for me.  I honestly don't know who I'm going to vote for in November (it won't be McCain), but if I decide to vote for someone other than Obama it's not because I think McCain won't be worse for women than Obama.

    It will be because I'm sick of Democrats taking women's votes for granted and they've been doing it for at least two decades.  They've sat still for the erosion of Roe and other advancements women had made.  

    Basically what we've got is a party that's hostile to women and a party that capitulates to that hostility because it thinks women will support it anyway.  

    This dynamic is awful for women.  Has been awful for some time and will continue to be.

    The truth is that women have mostly supported the Democratic party for the last two decades and we have little to show for it.  We are taken for granted because the GOP will be worse.

    So, for me, it's not a matter of convincing me that Obama will be better than McCain on women's issues, it's about convincing me the Democratic Party will do more than simply slow the erosion of my rights.  Because if that's what we're talking about, then I want a new party.

    [ Parent ]

    Silence in the Face of Misogyny (5.00 / 21) (#156)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    And the party's silence in the face of the misogyny only convinces me further that it has no interest in protecting women or their rights.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (5.00 / 14) (#176)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:08:27 PM EST
    If I vote for Sen. Obama, nothing will change. Ratifying the party's behavior will not induce the party to change. I respect anyone's decision to decide and vote differently. But my non-vote this year is a protest. It won't make a bit of difference in the election in my state, but I am not ratifying the party's behavior and their choice. And they do not get one more penny of my money.

    [ Parent ]
    that's because you think (4.66 / 12) (#102)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:46:17 PM EST
    the only "rational" answer is to vote for Obama.

    Obama has already started the same campaign "tactic" on McCain thta he used on Clinton.  Obama has already "played the race card" against McCain by warning that McCain will play the race card against him.

    What a crock.  And, someone should knock Obama down a peg or two and make him pay for that "tactic"

    [ Parent ]

    heh, sorry (2.60 / 5) (#105)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:48:01 PM EST
    I'm not going to do things that will play directly into the hands of Republicans, as you are.

    There is no longer any advantage for Obama to play the race card. That all goes to McCain now, especially if we're talking about Virginia or North Carolina.

    [ Parent ]

    Please look at all of the "party (5.00 / 14) (#133)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:54:59 PM EST
    unity" Obama has brought to us. Look at all the "change" Obama has brought to us.Look at the "rights" he wants upheld and will not take a firm stand on he's brought to us..Look at the "unifying with Repubs" he's brought to the table. Look at all the campaign "reform" he's using. He wants the power, the bragging rights, the ego trip, and he will fight even dirtier than Karl Rove to get it. He's already shown his true side. I will not support that. It's against my principles of believing we are a country, of the people, by the people and for the people. He did not "earn" this presumptive status, he was handed it.

    [ Parent ]
    Meh (3.16 / 6) (#138)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:55:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You just pick an argument and run with it (5.00 / 9) (#210)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:26:22 PM EST
    If Obama doesn't see an advantage in playing the race card against McCain, please explain his speech in Florida with the heavily laden racist charge in it.

    [ Parent ]
    Read that statement over and over (5.00 / 19) (#73)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:38:11 PM EST
    until to grasp what it says.

    We've settled for the past two elections. There are too many people in this country who are happy to absorb the messages of the MSNBC talking heads.

    PUMAs see that we had a competent, enthusiastic candidate who could make real headway in repairing the damage of the past 8 years. But, the idea of "as long as it's a democrat, who cares" has become commonplace. At least the PUMA's, who, by the way, are NOT supporting McCain, are trying their level best to STOP the practice of putting up two poor choices for the hold your nose balloting game.


    [ Parent ]

    Non PUMAs See the Same Thing, Except (3.16 / 6) (#179)
    by daring grace on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:09:15 PM EST
     we see Obama as the "competent, enthusiastic candidate who could make real headway in repairing the damage of the past 8 years" Another difference is that if your candidate Clinton were the candidate now, I'd still be singing the party unity chorus and lining up behind her candidacy.

    Because as much as I dislike elements of her senate voting record and the manner in which she and her campaign operated, at times, during the primaries, yes, she would be the 'democrat [who must get elected] who cares'.  Hands down.

    [ Parent ]

    I went to their website (2.33 / 9) (#215)
    by tben on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:29:18 PM EST
    and saw explicit signs for McCain.

    Look, maybe this is your first election, but I can guarantee you that 90% of the voters in EVERY ELECTION talk about "lesser of two evils", or "hold your nose" candidates. Its not a bug in the system - it would be weird to call it a "feature", but it is an INHERINT part of a democracy in a country this large and diverse.

    Its a big country. Any successful candidate has to appeal to 100 million diverse people. Every individual voter wants the candidate to agree with them - 100%. Just can't happen. Probably even Michelle doesnt agree with Barack on 100% of everything. We ALWAYS have to make sophisticated and calibrated judgements about which of the two candidates more closely approximates our views.

    Personally I have never heard a coherent argument from someone who enthusiastically supported Hillary Clinton, that the agenda that brought them to her could possibly now lead them to McCain. That strikes me as, literally, insane.

    [ Parent ]

    I refuse to settle, be told who to vote (5.00 / 11) (#36)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:23:26 PM EST
    for, pick the lesser to 2 evils once again! If my vote is sooooo precious, why does Obama "expect" me to "come home." He said (and his campaign)we always come home. Some do, I have in the past, not this year. I will not vote for POTUS and I have lost not one ounce of "perspective." It is I, who believe you, have lost your perspective. Again, vote how you will, we have a country based on those principles. I still have not heard anyone tell me why Obama will be better than McCain oh, except for the judges part. Gotta do better than that!

    [ Parent ]
    Well let's see (3.62 / 8) (#62)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:33:26 PM EST
    Here are a few ways that Obama will be better than McCain.

    1. He will not kowtow to Neo-Conservatives and their Brave New World foreign policy.

    2. He will not start yet another preemptive war with Iran for the sole reason of maintaining regional hegemony in the Middle East.

    3. He will begin negotiations with Iran in an attempt to bring Iran back into the global community.

    4. He will push for better health care options including a Federal health care programs available to all people.

    5. He will be a strong advocate for minority rights.

    6. He will allow the Bush tax cuts to expire thus improving the budget deficit considerably.

    7. He will push to eliminate DOMA.

    8. He will push for giving illegal immigrants a realistic and humane path to legal status.

    9. He will NOT allow hard core fundamentalists to push him into terrible positions because they control his party.

    Those are a few things.

    [ Parent ]
    #1 (5.00 / 12) (#89)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:43:14 PM EST
    So he'll be standing up and filibustering on the FISA legislation?

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, you have no (5.00 / 20) (#99)
    by dk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:45:38 PM EST
    idea if Obama will or won't do any of those things.  All we have are the half-promises of a man with no experience actually, you know, making tough decisions, as well as the only major party candidate who has openly gay baited to win a primary this season.

    What you recited probably says more about your own wish list than about Obama's.  

    [ Parent ]

    huh? (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:49:17 PM EST
    Think you clicked the wrong msg to respond to...

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, I was responding (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by dk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:56:57 PM EST
    to Flyerhawk.

    [ Parent ]
    #1's already inoperative (5.00 / 6) (#135)
    by tree on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:55:18 PM EST
    after his speech to AIPAC, the original Neo-cons. Number #2 may be gone as well. The rest are simply hopes, not particularly borne out by his sparse record.

    My suspicion is that the best reason to elect Obama is the number of competent Democrats he will bring into his Administration: people who understand government and the good it can do. However, its possible he will disappoint on this too, especially if he decides to add a lot of Republicans to his Administration. A Republican Vice President like Hagel would ice it for me. No vote from me for an Obama/Hagel ticket. Not only because of Hagel himself, but because of what it will say about Obama's dedication (or lack of same) to long-standing Democratic Party values.

    [ Parent ]

    really?... I could maybe give you #4, 5 & 6. (5.00 / 6) (#140)
    by jeffhas on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    1.  He already voted to continue funding the war - over and over.

    2. He has already stated he would invade Pakistan given actionable intelligence.

    3. Negotiate without preconditions?... where is there a guarantee Iran will come back to the Global community? - Even if we give away the farm in advance - there is still a great chance they will regard us as weak and continue their ways.

    4. I hope so.

    5. Will it be all minorities or just one.

    6. I hope he does - and I hope it does.

    7. No he won't... McClurkin.  He's already tossed that constituency right under the bus.

    8. So will McCain - In fact, McCain co-sponsored legislation already - an actual accomplishment, not just words

    9. Maybe he'll just allow his own monied interests to influence him... FISA.

    I could easily put together a list of things McCain will do better than Obama... as a centrist Republican (maybe even left wing Repub).  But I'm not trying to make a case for McCain. It really is a lesser of two evils argument now, and McCain has his own good points and bad points - just like Obama.... Only McCain didn't limp across the finish line, and had to have the nomination handed to him by the party leadership, so he hasn't inspired my anger.

    [ Parent ]
    A response (3.50 / 8) (#174)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:08:25 PM EST
    1. Funding the war at this point is the only option available.  Unless you think the Dems should deny soldiers food and ammunition?

    2. He did not say he would invade Pakistan.  Let's not use Republican talking points.

    3. There are no guarantees in life.  Sorry to disappoint you.

    4. Well since he's black obviously he wouldn't want to help any other minorities.

    5. I'll see your Donnie McClurkin and raise you a John Hagee and a cast of thousands.

    6. McCain has swung hard to the right immigration rights.  Perhaps you missed the past 6 months?

    7. Empty rhetoric.

    Feel free to list the items that McCain will do better than Obama on from a Liberal perspective.  I'm all ears.

    [ Parent ]
    False (5.00 / 9) (#195)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM EST
    Funding the war is not the only option. Cut off the funding and the troops will be withdrawn. It has been done before.

    If Congress believed that the American people really wanted out, they would cut off the money. If we said you don't get any more of our money or our votes until you do this, then they would do it. They want to be re-elected, and we should not re-elect them unless they do what we want. They work for us.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama has... (5.00 / 8) (#161)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    1. repeatedly declared his desire to "unify" the right and the left
    2. said that although negotiations are preferable, he will do anything to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons
    3. established a health care plan that is destined to fail and criticized better plans using right wing tactics
    4. said that he will continue the Bush tax cuts for people making less than $250,000 and expand cuts for seniors making less than $50,000
    5. campaigned with an advocate who is not only anti-gay marriage, but also anti-gay people,
    6. backed "secure borders" and cracking down on employers who hire undocumented workers
    7. met with fundamentalist right wing religious leaders (as one of his first acts as nominee).

    He has also proposed some very good measures in these areas, and I'm not going to pretend that his positions are all like McCains, but it is not reasonable to pretend that Obama is campaigning as a leftist. He is doing what he said he would do - campaigning as a centrist with ideas from both sides.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you. He has already pulled (5.00 / 14) (#164)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:04:51 PM EST
    back his commitment on Iraq, he has already pulled back his stance on pre-conditions speaking with other leaders, I've not heard him at all speak on immigration for a while, his health care plan is not "universal" as he now contends (didn't to begin with), are women part of those
    "minority rights" if so, he has said (and I have read speeches as such) that he will appt. judges who are "sensitive" to womens (and gay) needs (oh but he trusts we will first seek council of some kind),you have no idea what he will and will not do when it comes to preemptive strikes. He has taken a 360 turn on everything he has said. He wants to attract Reagan dems and repub. lites, he will say and do anything to get them.

    [ Parent ]
    Based on his history (5.00 / 10) (#166)
    by suisser on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:05:07 PM EST
    his judgments, his actions, I see no reason to believe your laundry list of Hope

    [ Parent ]
    Sure, vero possumus (5.00 / 12) (#216)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:30:04 PM EST
    as Obama would say -- "yes, he can" do all this.

    But will he?  Based on his record, looks like "no."

    He has a chance now to show me that he has guts.  Let's see.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly what I want? (5.00 / 20) (#46)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:28:14 PM EST
    Not likely. I wasn't a huge Gore fan, and I thought Kerry was a pompous ass. I've come to like Gore since he became a real, caring human being instead of a shallow, pandering politician, and I always sort of had faith that he would be a good President, but I have hardly gotten what I want. Kerry has shown himself to be exactly waht I believed he was. Last election I was a Clark fan, but loyally donated to and voted for and defended Kerry. I've settled for "close enough" for a long time. This time there is no "close enough". I haven't lost perspective - I've gained it. I've been defending Dems from attacks for years, and I'm sick of it. It's time they put up or shut up. What's the point of voting for people who won't fight for what I believe in?

    [ Parent ]
    Nice to hear (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Lil on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:49:15 PM EST
    someone echos my sentiments almost exactly. I still hope for Obama over McCain though. There have been a lot of candidates and a lot of votes that went 51-49 against us (Or something close to that). And I really am quite sick of it.

    [ Parent ]
    I used to want Obama to win (5.00 / 7) (#214)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:28:43 PM EST
    Since he met with those fundamantalist leaders (as one of his first post-primary acts - how symbolic) and caved on FISA I'm not so sure.

    [ Parent ]
    I will vote for Obama, as I committed (4.88 / 9) (#24)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:16:59 PM EST
    months ago, after he first seriously disappointed me. But I will not hold my fire on him, and I have no illusions. But I'm with BTD, I will not enable a McCain Presidency.

    [ Parent ]
    if not voting = enabling (5.00 / 15) (#114)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:49:31 PM EST
    we must conclude obama enabled bush on kyl-Lieberman.

    [ Parent ]
    What Logic! (Snark) (3.50 / 4) (#153)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:59:52 PM EST
    Your word play is transparently dishonest. But seems like you are thoroughly entertaining yourself.

    What are you trying to accomplish here anyway? To wake people up to the fact that Obama is worse than McCain?

    Or is it that you want McCain to win so that Hillary can win in 2012?

    No one here is under the illusion that Obama is the most perfect candidate since sliced bread, but any liberal, or progressive, who has a shred of reason available to them knows that he is waaaaay better than McSame.

    [ Parent ]

    no (5.00 / 5) (#182)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:11:51 PM EST
    I'm just pointing out that not voting isn't enabling.

    Because if failing to vote=enabling, then we must re-evaluate obama's failure to vote on kyl/Lieberman.

    Do you think not voting=enabling?

    [ Parent ]

    Wouldn't it be nice if Obama's (5.00 / 13) (#158)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    commitment to you was as strong as your commitment to him?

    [ Parent ]
    As I've said many times (5.00 / 15) (#168)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 01:06:45 PM EST
    Some, like me, believe that enabling an Obama presidency enables many, many years of Republican presidencies in the future -- just as Carter enabled many Republican presidencies.

    It's a matter of preferences -- do you want a man with no history being defined by becoming president in a really horrible time?  Or do you want McCain to own the disaster? As far as I'm concerned if the president has no history to fall back on, he/she will be defined -and their party will be defined -- by what happens while they're in office.

    [ Parent ]

    well-said--and ditto n/t (4.75 / 4) (#96)
    by kempis on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:44:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yup (4.00 / 2) (#122)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:51:41 PM EST
    Ditto

    [ Parent ]
    I'm a PUMA (5.00 / 12) (#10)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:07:31 PM EST
    and I think Rebecca is being an optimist if she thinks  will be voting for Barack Obama because of reproductiverights. I'll take a page out of Barack's book and vote "present" by voting downticket.

    Personally, since some of the Democrats had to sign on in order for the partial birth bill I don't think the Democrats have the moral authority to claim superiority on choice.

    I'm not a PUMA. I simply don't believe Obama is (5.00 / 16) (#11)
    by rooge04 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:08:10 PM EST
    qualified.  I can get over the anger and the sexism and misogyny. But I will not vote for someone simply because there's a D next to his name and they keep screaming, "Roe v. Wade"

    I'm PUMA and for exactly the reasons you (5.00 / 11) (#52)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:30:28 PM EST
    mention.

    [ Parent ]
    PUMA is non-specific (5.00 / 11) (#65)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:34:28 PM EST
    It doesn't matter why you don't want to vote for Obama. "Party Unity My A**" is a generic phrase for people who simply refuse to vote based on nothing but a desire to support the Democratic Party. If you won't vote for somebody simply because they have  "D" after their name, then you are a spiritual member of this cohort whether you choose to join the movement or not. And I'm not trying to get you to join the movement - I just heard about it yesterday, and I sort of like the idea. But I've always been reluctant to join internet "movements", and this isn't goig to be different. If I start seeing weirdness, I'm out.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't join movements either (5.00 / 9) (#125)
    by aquarian on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:53:12 PM EST
    but I am sympathetic with their motivations. PUMAs are deeply dissatisfied with their party leadership.  It is one possible answer to the question who is most likely to rethink their leadership approach -- the party who wins in November or the party who loses?

    [ Parent ]
    The article is not complete (5.00 / 14) (#12)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:08:26 PM EST
    The last line says: "Yes, they're going to vote for Obama. Of course they'll vote for him. The truth is, they'll probably love voting for him."

    The truth is, if I vote for Obama (only if MD looks close, otherwise a Hillary write-in), I will never love doing it.

    I'll agree with the reasons in the article and add: Hillary Clinton had the fire to fight for us(women and kids and real people) while Obama dissed us. The article forgets that Obama directly insulted women and Hillary (claws, periodically, throwing furniture, hold on a minute sweetie).

    The article forgets that in the VP discussions it is so obvious that not only should HRC be top of the ticket, it is typical sexist BS to put a better woman under the guy.

    My biggest anger is to be so hugely reminded that after coming of age as a feminist in the '70's, working for decades for women's rights, that our 'allies' are as bad as the enemy and things haven't changed so much outside of the little spaces we've created for ourselves.

    The part that I don't get is (5.00 / 8) (#13)
    by eric on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:08:29 PM EST
    this:

    8. They are mad at Bill Clinton. Um, obviously.

    Mad at Bill, why?

    i didn't get that either. (5.00 / 10) (#15)
    by Marco21 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:10:24 PM EST
    We're mad at him because he was misquoted,  painted a racist and insulted?

    [ Parent ]
    Personally (5.00 / 11) (#16)
    by cawaltz on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:12:35 PM EST
    I think this article was more of an attempt to toss stuf out there under the pretense of undestanding the anger and a wishful attempt again to put Roe v Wade out there as the reason we need to hop on the Unity bus. I was underwhelmed.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, she lost me on #s 8,9 &10 (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by suisser on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:17:19 PM EST
    I disagree with her conclusion. Am I a PUMA? I don't know. But I do know that I won't be voting for Obama. Did she capture many of my feelings, especially on her first points? Yes.  I think of all the postmortem analysis I've read of the reasons for HRC supports to be pissed, it's pretty much spot on, but again, I disagree with her conclusion.  Thanks for the post.

    [ Parent ]
    oh really (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:28:49 PM EST
    I see that even in their best efforts they can not help themselves at all.

    Profoundly INEPT to keep that lie alive within the context of unity.

    It will not work.

    Anyone thinks they want me in the party they can STFPH about that issue.   And probably be smart to say  "I was wrong, i am sorry."

    [ Parent ]

    Mad at Bill Clinton? (5.00 / 11) (#54)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:31:10 PM EST
    Huh?  Well, there goes her credibility.  

    [ Parent ]
    She had some good points, too (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:43:33 PM EST
    The article, overall, was an interesting summary of reasons that Clinton's voter's are angry.

    [ Parent ]
    I have no idea (5.00 / 14) (#85)
    by dianem on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:42:42 PM EST
    That one confused me, too. I suppose we're supposed to be mad because he undermined his wife's campaign with his "race-baiting", but I truly believe that his supposed race baiting was nothing more than an innocent phrase turned into something obnoxious by the media and by Obama's campaign. The entire media universe had been predicting that the high concentration of black voter's among South Carolina's Democrats would result in an Obama win in the primary. It was one of only 4 states that Jackson won in both primaries, and Clinton never denigrated Jackson's campaign. Even Jackson didn't think that Clinton's comments were racist. It was the simple truth - Obama was going to win that state. If Clinton has suggested that Obama won Iowa because he was black, then that would have been racist.

    Bill Clinton was a legendary force for positive change among black voter's, but Obama's campaign chose to tar him as a racist because they had to neutralize him as an asset for Hillary Clinton. It worked. After the S. Carolina incident he had to take a very quiet role in his wife's campaign, unlike Michelle Obama who got to go out and get all of the press coverage she could get.

    [ Parent ]

    What will make me vote for McCain? (5.00 / 20) (#18)
    by Emma on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:13:09 PM EST
    More and more clueless "explanations" of why I'm angry.  More and more substanceless exhortations of why I "have" to vote for Obama (he's not McCain? Oh rly?  FISA would beg to say differently).

    Not only am I NOT going to vote for Obama, the discourse from June 3rd forward only pushes me closer to voting for McCain.

    FTR, I'm in no way angry at either Hillary or Bill Clinton.  That's just flat-out BS.  Bill did a h*ll of a lot of good for Hillary in the primaries.  Keep pretending that's not true and make me madder than ever.  As for Hillary not taking the fight to Denver, as a loyal Dem and a national-level politician, she has her own concerns which I completely and totally understand.

    But, I have my own concerns.   And all I have to express them is MY vote.  I don't have a seat in the Senate.  I don't have a national platform.  I don't have any say in the Party or what the Party does -- a point which has been repeatedly rammed home over the last 8-9 months or so, culminating in the absolute outrage of the Dems stealing my MI vote for HRC and giving it to Obama.

    If the Dems wouldn't count my vote in January, they aren't going to count it in November, either -- unless they count it for McCain.

    Wow (3.00 / 12) (#51)
    by squeaky on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 12:30:08 PM EST
    You are easy to manipulate. McCain can count on you for that. I bet you are one of those rare types that would love to take everyone with you when your head explodes.

    Personally, as one that voted for Hillary I do not see why anyone would get so worked up over a Pol. Pols change like the wind even while staying in about the same place.

    Take Hillary who said during the campaign lots during the campaign that no longer is true for her. For example, at one point she said that Obama is not qualified to be president, now she believes that he is qualified and is 100% behind him. Fancy that, from a politician no less.

    Do you think that Politicians exaggerate, pander, and lie in order to persuade you to vote for them? Or is that only something Obama does, and McCain and Hillary are exceptions.

    [ Parent ]

    It's not about (5.00 / 8) (#67)
    by Emma on Mon Ju