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Sunstein An Advisor To Barack Obama?

AdamB announced his law panel for Netroots Nation and it is an impressive one. But one thing stuck out for me in his announcement - the bio of Cass Sunstein:

One of America's foremost legal scholars, Cass Sunstein is a professor at Harvard Law School and a visiting professor at The University of Chicago Law School, and serves as an advisor to Obama for America.

Cass Sunstein is an advisor for Obama for America? That is extremely troubling as Cass Sunstein holds views that I believe should be anathema to most progressives. For example, Sunstein supported John Roberts for Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:

The Roberts nomination is not welcomed by those who object to the rightward drift of the federal courts or believe that Justice O'Connor's successor should be no more conservative than she. . . . But at this point in our history, the most serious danger lies in the rise of conservative judicial activism. . . For those who are concerned about that kind of activism on the Supreme Court, opposition to the apparently cautious Judge Roberts seems especially odd at this stage. . .

I wonder if Sunstein still agrees with that. More importantly, what does Obama think of that view. More . . .

Cass Sunstein supported the Bush Administration theory of inherent authority to spy on Americans without warrants:

Hugh Hewitt: Do you consider the quality of the media coverage here to be good, bad, or in between?

Cass Sunstein: Pretty bad, and I think the reason is we're seeing a kind of libertarian panic a little bit, where what seems at first glance...this might be proved wrong...but where what seems at first glance a pretty modest program is being described as a kind of universal wiretapping, and also being described as depending on a wild claim of presidential authority, which the president, to his credit, has not made any such wild claim. The claims are actually fairly modest, and not unconventional. So the problem with what we've seen from the media is treating this as much more peculiar, and much larger than it actually is

(Emphasis supplied.) Perhaps he is advising Obama now on FISA. Consider these thoughts from Sunstein:

Hugh Hewitt: So if we assume, and I do, that FISA is Constitutional, if it puts into place an arguably exclusive means of obtaining warrants for surveillance of al Qaeda and their agents in the United States, does the president's avoidance of that necessarily make him a law breaker? Or does it make the FISA ineffective insofar as it would attempt to restrict the president's power?

Cass Sunstein: Yeah. I guess I'd say there are a couple of possibilities. One is that we should interpret FISA conformably with the president's Constitutional authority. So if FISA is ambiguous, or its applicability is in question, the prudent thing to do, as the first President Bush liked to say, is to interpret it so that FISA doesn't compromise the president's Constitutional power. And that's very reasonable, given the fact that there's an authorization to wage war, and you cannot wage war without engaging in surveillance. If FISA is interpreted as preventing the president from doing what he did here, then the president does have an argument that the FISA so interpreted is unconstitutional. So I don't think any president would relinquish the argument that the Congress lacks the authority to prevent him from acting in a way that protects national security, by engaging in foreign surveillance under the specific circumstances of post-9/11.

(Emphasis supplied.) The question is this - to what degree do the views of Cass Sunstein on these issues reflect the views of Barack Obama? I would like to know.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    On Alito, susntein wrote (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:49:02 AM EST

    A reading of the opinions of Samuel Alito reveals that he is an unexpectedly interesting judge, with a conservative record that shows a very different tone from that of Justice Scalia or Justice Thomas. He does not press ambitious claims, and each of his opinions is firmly anchored in the law. At the same time, his overall pattern of votes shows a great deal of deference to established institutions.

    Unlike, say, Justice Scalia, Judge Richard Posner, and Judge Michael Luttig, Alito avoids theoretically ambitious claims. He rarely asks for large-scale reorientations of the law. His opinions are both measured and low-key. He does not insist that the Constitution must mean what it meant when it was originally ratified. If each opinion is read in isolation, the evaluation, even for those who disagree, would almost always be this: solid, more than competent, unfailingly respectful, and plausible.

     

    btd (none / 0) (#3)
    by DFLer on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:56:21 AM EST
    Please inform me, as I know not. Is this is fair assessment of Alito? Is this praise accurate, yet damning on priciple?
    \
    Thanks

    [ Parent ]
    It is inaccurate (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:57:45 AM EST
    I direct you to the many postings on Alito I wrote at daily kos in late 2005 and early 2006.

    Alito is an extremist outside the legal mainstream.

    [ Parent ]

    Also see the more than 100 (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:54:11 AM EST
    posts I wrote warning about Alito around the time of his nomination and confirmation -- type Alito in the search box and start around #82 -- the next 100 detail his abysmal record on the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendmant as well as Roe vs. Wade and captial punishment and his backing of police power and record as a career prosecutor before that.

    [ Parent ]
    That too (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:16:09 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    THANKS (none / 0) (#93)
    by DFLer on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:42:32 AM EST
    I've got some homework to do. ...wasn't reading TL at that time.

    [ Parent ]
    Not that I ever liked Alito, (none / 0) (#94)
    by DFLer on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:43:39 AM EST
    but happy to be better informed.

    [ Parent ]
    Re Sunstein and Roberts/Alito, (none / 0) (#49)
    by brodie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:09:05 AM EST
    there were a few other moderate or liberal legal scholars back in 2005 who also didn't believe Roberts, and to a lesser extent Alito, would be much more than minamalist conservative types.  Jeffrey Rosen and Richard Lazarus also weighed in to downplay concerns about them, as did Sunstein.

    They were all wrong.

    Sunstein, from the little I've read, has briefly acknowledged the doctrinaire conservative voting patterns of both Justices, completely in line with Scalia and Thomas on key cases, but has yet to fully come forward to admit how he misread them.  Imo, he would need to do so before being confirmed, if that nomination does in fact happen.  

    [ Parent ]

    Who Said Anything (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by The Maven on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:39:32 AM EST
    about a nomination, to SCOTUS or any other judicial position.  Sunstein is acting as an adviser to Obama on legal issues, and as such, would be one of the principal individuals involved in developing the screening scenarios for other judicial selections.

    The point here is that, having been so far off-base in his public assessments of Roberts and Alito during their nomination process, it doesn't speak well for Sunstein's viewpoints regarding judicial philosophy and temperament.  That he will be whispering sweet nothings in Obama's ear only reinforces my belief that a President Obama would not actively seek to steer the Third Branch in a liberal direction but rather go right down the middle.

    [ Parent ]

    Agree. (none / 0) (#66)
    by indy in sc on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:18:48 AM EST
    Roberts pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes in regards to what kind of justice he would be.  That was due in part to the Bush administration's refusal to release certain pertinent information prior to the vote.  Congratulations to those who were not fooled like BTD and Jeralyn.

    As I have posted in another thread, I doubt Sunstein would be Obama's nominee.  Although he is highly respected as a constitutional scholar, his lack of judicial experience makes him vulnerable to being voted down.  A long judicial record can be a negative, but none at all makes you more risky.

    [ Parent ]

    Why would he need a judicial record? (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by nycstray on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:06:26 AM EST
    They all seem fine with Obama not having a record/experience to be President . . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Being voted down by a Dem. congress? (none / 0) (#95)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:49:11 AM EST
    Boy, I sure don't see that happening.  Judicial experience is in no way a requirement for SC justices, and no friendly congress is going to vote against a nominee.  Geez, a lot of Dems. wouldn't even vote against Roberts and Alito.


    [ Parent ]
    That's exactly why (none / 0) (#103)
    by indy in sc on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:01:45 AM EST
    I don't think he'll pick Sunstein.  SCOTUS appointments usually go through without a lot of real opposition.  He doesn't want to get into a Harriet Miers situation where his nominee is not chosen.  Yes, I recognize that Harriet Miers had a lot more issues than Sunstein would necessarily have, but why take the risk?


    [ Parent ]
    Again, I'd have to disagree with invoking (none / 0) (#108)
    by brodie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:15:15 AM EST
    Harriet Miers.  

    Lack of judicial experience can be overcome with solid academic background and writing -- neither of which HM had -- particularly when it involves a const'l scholar from an elite law school.

    In fact, senators have been burned in recent times by appointees coming to them with some judicial experience -- like the last two -- who have likely been careful on the bench not to take too many controversial stands as they looked ahead to a promotion to the High Court.  They then went before the senate and, one could reasonably conclude, lied through their teeth about their true judicial views.

    Someone like Sunstein, otoh, is much more of an open book.  He has his many writings and op-eds and books and has weighed in on a number of major Ct rulings and appointments.  Such a lengthy and explicit record, assuming a solid Dem senate for the next 2-4 yrs, almost assures a Sunstein with his noncontroversial frankness would be welcomed as a breath of fresh air.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly so (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:05:39 PM EST
    There's not the remotest comparison between Miers, a hack administration attorney, and Sunstein, a widely respected legal scholar.

    If Obama nominates Sunstein, there won't even be a debate in the Senate.  The GOP would love him, and the Dems. would do whatever Obama wanted.

    If he nominates him, he's a lock.


    [ Parent ]

    Anything wrong with that? (none / 0) (#97)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:55:12 AM EST
    Seems to me to be an insightful analysis of the precise nature of Alito's consevatism. Do you find it objectionable or praiseworthy? I wonder why you post this?

    [ Parent ]
    forget it (none / 0) (#100)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:56:49 AM EST
    sorry - I missed your answer above....

    [ Parent ]
    Well, we never have believed BO... (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by Shainzona on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:51:03 AM EST
    when it comes to women's rights/pro-choice.  This is such a waffle area for him (despite his wonderful record of voting....present) that it's not surprising to learn this.

    There is not a lot of room under the Obama bus...but I am certain - after a life of protest for choice and knowing the commitment you feel when you really believe - that we will soon be looking up at BO's greasy axles with a lot of other people.

    Barack Obama is not POTUS material.

    Shainzona...I could not agree more....obama (5.00 / 9) (#62)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:16:59 AM EST
    speaks out both sides of his mouth and his do as I say, not as I do attitude is finally starting to get noticed, as it should be.  Those who railed that Hillary was republican lite, need to take a good long gander at obama.

    [ Parent ]
    This is not born by the facts, again. (3.66 / 3) (#40)
    by BlatantLiberal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:04:35 AM EST
    Throughout this thread there seems to be an ignorance of the facts.

    In Illinois the present votes were a campaign to protect reproductive rights. He has always stood strong on this subject and on the need for sexual education in schools. He has a 100% postivie from NARAL.

    I would urge you to consider your thoughts on his position regarding women's rights: he has been a strong supporter throughout his carrer which is why Ms. Malcom has moved so quickly, despite her pain from the primary loss, to support Sen. Obama. And similarly why Gloria Steinmen is supporting Sen. Obama and publically said so in the Boston Herald.

    There is a clear record of postiive support on his part; while the same is not true of Sen. McCain who wants to overturn Roe v. Wade and is one vote away from making this possible.

    [ Parent ]

    According to the woman who was president of NOW (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by lorelynn on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:13:01 AM EST
    at the time of the votes, that's a lie. Now, if Obama telling the truth, then why did he put out a video with Lorna Howard where she mislead people into thinking she was president of NOW at the time of the votes instead of making clear that she hadn't been president in 3 years?

    Obama had to lie to make his case. I don't believe for a second that was the strategy or now. Until someone presents contemporaneous evidence - such as other pro-choice senators from blue districts voting present consistently - I won't believe it.

    [ Parent ]

    All The Pro Choice Illinois Lawmakers (3.00 / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    Voted present on the notification issue. It was a tactic organized by planned parenthood, to allow some on the fence a way of voting against parental notification. A present vote in Illinois counts as a no vote.

    FWIW Obama was against voting present and was convinced by Planned Parenthood that their strategy was better.

    MedIA Matters

    You are ill informed.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL. (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by LatinoVoter on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:01:08 PM EST
    FWIW Obama was against voting present and was convinced by Planned Parenthood that their strategy was better.

    Did you bother to read the link you provided? I guess not because if you had you would have seen that you are the one that is "ill informed."

    Sutherland said Obama approached her in the late 1990s and worked with her and others in crafting the strategy of voting "present." She remembers meeting with Obama outside of the Illinois Senate chambers on the Democratic side of the aisle. She and Obama finished their conversation in his office.

    "He came to me and said: 'My members are being attacked. We need to figure out a way to protect members and to protect women,' " said Sutherland in recounting her conversation with Obama. "A 'present' vote was hard to pigeonhole which is exactly what Obama wanted."

    "What it did," she continued, "was give cover to moderate Democrats who wanted to vote with us but were afraid to do so" because of how their votes would be used against them electorally. "A 'present' vote would protect them. Your senator voted 'present.' Most of the electorate is not going to know what that means."

    While Sutherland was happy to give Obama latitude in voting "present," rather than "no," she was quick to note that "it's also not a 'yes' vote."

    As explained by your own link the present vote was prompted by Barack. Why would Sutherland have to give him latitude for a strategy that he did not conceive?

    [ Parent ]

    no way to know if this is true (4.00 / 1) (#163)
    by sancho on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:13:42 PM EST
    or if obama just says he wanted to vote no. clearly, he will not do anything that wont get him elected prez. and once he is elected, and only then, will we find out, what he would do. i dont think he gives a damn about roe. no self-respecting post-partisan male would.

    [ Parent ]
    How Does That Square (5.00 / 6) (#129)
    by The Maven on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:51:49 AM EST
    with the responses his campaign officially gave to Reproductive Health Reality Check last December:
    Does Sen. Obama support any restrictions on abortion, or does he believe it should be entirely up to women?

    Obama supports those restrictions that are consistent with the legal framework outlined by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade.

    That's a loophole large enough to drive a truck through.

    [ Parent ]
    Please do check as to what the Sen. has (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:10:15 PM EST
    said on this subject, of course, it's all dependent on who he is addressing as to what course he proposes on "women's rights." He seems to feel we women should first consult our clergy before making any decisions. He says he wants the court to be sensitive to gay rights and women's rights. I have yet to actually hear him say the words, reproductive or protecting a woman's right to choose. I have read various speeches on this subject by him and he is very, very vague.

    [ Parent ]
    Not all women's groups supported (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:23:33 PM EST
    him on the "present" votes. I believe it was NOW that was strongly opposed.

    [ Parent ]
    No (1.50 / 2) (#152)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:40:23 PM EST
    Now supported Obama until it was a race between him and Hillary. Then they supported Hillary and all of a sudden decided that Obama's present votes were  unacceptable.

    Lorna Brett, former president of Chicago NOW: "I am a supporter of Hillary Clinton and an EMILY's List donor, but this line of attack is unacceptable. While I was the president of Chicago National Organization for Women, Senator Obama worked closely with us, could not have been more supportive of a woman's right to choose, and there was no bigger champion in Illinois on our issues. What's important is that the candidates do not cannibalize each other on issues we all agree about because we need to win in November."

    link

    [ Parent ]

    IIRC, the women is misrepresenting (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:51:33 PM EST
    herself. She was NOT the President when the votes in question took place. I know some misrepresentation of this nature occurred, and I also know that Obama was excoriated by a women's group---I think NOW---for his "present" votes.

    [ Parent ]
    No You Are Misrepresenting Her (none / 0) (#159)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:54:19 PM EST
    As she never said that she was the President of Illinois NOW when Obama cast the present votes.

    [ Parent ]
    IL Now did not support him at the time (none / 0) (#161)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:01:24 PM EST
    did it?
    I have only read of NARAL's endorsement.

    [ Parent ]
    NARAL Endorsed Him In 2008 (5.00 / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:19:26 PM EST
    Evidentially NOW was against the Planned Parenthood strategy of getting the dems to all vote present. But NOW endorsed Obama in 1998 and 2002.

    It was not until Hillary came into the picture that NOW, (and Hillary) went batsh*t about Obama's present votes.

    Lynn Harris (Salon) has a rather impartial blow by blow, if you are interested, about "Present Gate".

    [ Parent ]

    Excoriated By NOW in 2008 (none / 0) (#160)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:55:13 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    We're not talking about "record"... (4.85 / 7) (#82)
    by Shainzona on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:35:03 AM EST
    we're talking about personal commitment - you know...down in your gut.  

    I have never found Obama's present votes to be convincing...if he wants/needs to play strategy so that he can hoodwink his supporters then he can play with some other issue...but BO had better keep his g*d d*%N paws off my laws and body.

    And NOTHING you point out in the record will convince me that Roe v Wade is not at risk - with both Obama and McCain.  But at least McCain has some honor in his background.

    [ Parent ]

    Ahhh, tben...I see you're trolling around (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Shainzona on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:41:24 AM EST
    here again.  What a life you must have!  So sad.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:36:53 PM EST
    Tben looks to be a dead-ender.

    [ Parent ]
    If He Doesn't Convince You (2.00 / 1) (#111)
    by daring grace on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:23:16 AM EST
    Then, he doesn't convince you. Nobody but you can change that (or not).

    As to judging not by his actions and words, but by some reading of his 'gut'...I don't know where we find the means to perform the philosophical colonoscopy to discern that.

    [ Parent ]

    Cass Sunstein Is The Name I've Seen (5.00 / 10) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:00:54 AM EST
    floated as Obama's first SCOTUS pick.

    His statement that he does not believe that the right of privacy is contained in the Constitution or if was it would apply between a woman and her physician is troublsome. Also, he is a proponent of judicial minimalism which believe that Roe v Wade was incorrectly decided. From what I've read, they do not believe that it should be overturned outright but continually modified.

    I have no great faith that Obama will appoint a justice that is fully committed to choice, rolling back "The President Is Above The Law or ruling for people over corporations

     

    His views about Roe v Wade are (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by brodie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:13:29 AM EST
    founded in an objection to its being based on the implied right to privacy that Court found.  From what I gather, he might agree with the Ct's conclusion, but  thinks it should have been based on a gender equality basis in the Equal Protection Clause, a far more uncontroversial position.

    In this view he embraces the stance of the only woman on the Ct, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who first propounded this sex equality reasoning some 20 yrs ago.

    The other moderates (3) on the Court today also concur with Ginsburg/Sunstein.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, yes, I know that. (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:26:09 AM EST
    But Ginsburg does believe there is an implied right to privacy in the Constitution.

    [ Parent ]
    And where is the 5th vote (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by BackFromOhio on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:01:57 PM EST
    to come from if some on Court decide to change underlying rationale from Roe's right of privacy to the Sunstein position?  What other matters, currently based on the Roe right to privacy, would be put in jeopardy if the Court were to reject Roe for equal protection as basis for woman's right to choose or whatever?  

    We have so many pressing problems to address in this country, why should we all be spending time on an academic argument about the basis of women's rights?  Wouldn't this function as a distraction?  The Court can only hear a finite number of cases per term.  Imo, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Please tell me if I'm missing something???  BTW, I come from an exceedingly academic/"intellectual" background, and I'm not opposed to the Court's rethinking the basis of its positions from time to time, but I am concerned that our nominee's putting this fellow on the Court may function to distract Dems from more important issues at a time when other Constitutional rights are under blatant attack and when Dems in Congress should not have to be forced to spend time on controversial nominations from one of its own.  Consideration of this fellow as next Court nominee would make sense if a Dem president were to face a Republican majorityh in Congress, but this will is very unlikely to be the case.


    [ Parent ]

    Sunstein, as an academic at Univ. of (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:46:50 PM EST
    Chicago law school is free to express his opinion as to a stronger constitutional basis for Roe v. Wade.  That is what law scholars do.  But I surely would not want him on the U.S. Supreme Court tinkering.  

    [ Parent ]
    Constitutional Tactics (none / 0) (#98)
    by Athena on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:55:15 AM EST
    Not sure I agree that the Equal Protection route is less controversial.  But had it been used - it would have given us a very solid foundation of legally recognized gender disparities on which to litigate subsequent women's health issues.

    [ Parent ]
    Holy crap! (none / 0) (#10)
    by masslib on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:03:14 AM EST
    I just said that upthread but I was kidding.

    [ Parent ]
    it's been speculated many times (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:05:22 AM EST
    sunstein would be his pick

    [ Parent ]
    That is a scary thought (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by talex on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:13:36 AM EST
    Although Presidents do tend to nominate those who are in within their circle of influence. And that is the case here.

    As others have said here if their was one reason to vote for Obama over McCain it would be because of their choice for the SCOTUS. But in this case if it were Sunstein then we no longer have that reason to vote for Obama.

    It could be correctly argued that it would be easier for a Democratic majority to beat back a bad McCain nomination than it would for them to beat back a nomination from a Democratic President.

    Think about that people.

    [ Parent ]

    Nancy and Harry and the rest... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Shainzona on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:37:10 AM EST
    of the spineless ones will be dancing in the streets to help out their pal BO.

    You are absolutely right!

    "It could be correctly argued that it would be easier for a Democratic majority to beat back a bad McCain nomination than it would for them to beat back a nomination from a Democratic President."

    And that terrifies me.

    [ Parent ]

    "what does Obama think of that view?" (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by talex on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:02:00 AM EST
    Well that is pretty easy to answer. One, he has him as an adviser so he wants to hear his opionion and we know what Sunstein's opinions are. That is pretty clear. And second look what Obama did at dkos when he went there and defended those who voted for Roberts! Once again we had Obama doing or saying one thing and then showing his heart was in another place.

    How could one be against Roberts and vote against him and then defend those who help seat Roberts? The answer is simple. Obama knew Roberts would get voted through so he was able to make a calculated and politically expedient vote of NO. And once that vote was cast for the record he showed where his heart was really at and defended those who voted YES.

    Bottom line is that once again Obama let others do the heavy lifting while with his vote he stayed 'safe'. But yet in order to thank those who let him get away with that he went to their defense AGAINST the Left.

    Yeah - this guy will be a great President!!!

    your words bring one thing to mind (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by kimsaw on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:29:16 AM EST
    what will Obama do in discussion with the leaders of the axis of evil? Who's going to do the heavy lifting then? He said he'd meet with them without preconditions. What will he say to us then say to them? Will he placate them like he does everything else. I know I'm  will be vilified, but Obama's political placating has real implications, like it or not.  Mr. President we know not where you stand is the key question on everything.  Will he throw his country under the bus when necessary? I wouldn't doubt it for a nanosecond. I'm not voting for McCain, but I can't vote for Obama either. No trust, no vote.

    [ Parent ]
    My oh my (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by hookfan on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:29:27 AM EST
    and the reasons for women to vote for Obama seem to be getting less and less. I thought SCOTUS was the big reason to vote for Obama. Couple this with his change on withdrawal from Iraq, flip on Nafta and campaign finance, and now fisa, explain to me again why a progressive would vote for Obama? Is the only reason to be against McCain?
       I'm through. I won't vote for Obama now. Nor will I support a party that has brought us this debacle. Where will I go? I dunno. Guess I will wander in the wilderness for awhile. . .

    [ Parent ]
    Did (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by tek on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:09:56 AM EST
    anyone miss that Obama supported John Roberts and intended to vote for him until his campaign adviser told him it would be a mistake?

    [ Parent ]
    And I was a bit taken aback (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by brodie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:19:51 AM EST
    that O wasn't smarter about the political implications looking ahead, but in the end he did the right thing (and wrt Roberts, nice guy who had only a non-fundamentalist small-c conservative record to look at -- probably an intentionally low-key but deceptive record, imo) and voted Nay.

    Which lib Dems voted Aye on Roberts?

    Well, Leahy and Feingold.  Someone can remind me what ex fed judge Pat Leahy was thinking back in 2005.  Or was he seduced, like other Dem senators and mod-lib legal scholars like Sunstein, by the guy's rather pleasant demeanor and small-bore judicial record.

    [ Parent ]

    I remember (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by talex on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:26:36 AM EST
    that. His statements were he was 'unsure' of how he would vote. Straddling the fence as usual.

    [ Parent ]
    hookfan....independent seems the way many (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:21:33 AM EST
    have gone.  obama makes it very hard for principled, informed people to want to vote for him.  Just what I have read here, i.e. Sunstein,(on top of everything else obama has done) would seal that deal for me, if I hadn't already made up my mind that I will not vote for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Wasn't Obama about to vote for Roberts (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by BackFromOhio on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:04:20 PM EST
    when Kerry (and perhaps others) pulled him aside and prevailed upon Obama not to do so?

    [ Parent ]
    Defending them at DailyKos was a political move. (4.33 / 3) (#33)
    by BlatantLiberal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:58:01 AM EST
    These are democrats that were not safe and this was a point of power for President Bush, to ignore these facts and act like this occured in a vacum is not helpful IMO.

    If you look at the situation he clearly outlinned why these democrats should be supported; through he disagreed with their vote. And how this is how the sausage gets made in goverment.

    I genuinely feel that this post is taking hits on Sen. Obama not born out by his record.

    [ Parent ]

    Political? Who wudda thunk it?........ (5.00 / 7) (#83)
    by Camorrista on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:35:33 AM EST
    Defending them at DailyKos was a political move.

    You must be new here.  As a defense of Senator Obama this is staler than year-old pizza.

    We know he's a politician, we know he tacks with the prevailing wind.  We know he says the right thing for public consumption and then finds a way to do the opposite when it benefits him (public financing, anyone?  "present" votes, anyone?  no to the war, yes to war-funding, anyone? yes to John Roberts, then no to John Roberts, anyone?).

    The difference is you think that's all okay, and some of us don't.  Some of us think that if pols expect to be slippery they (and especially their noisier supporters) should stop mouthing off about their superior virtue.  The point is not that Senator Obama is a pol and a hypocrite; the point is that he's spent a year pretending not to be one--while instructing his surrogates (and admirers) to savage Senator Clinton as not merely a pol, but a dirty pol.      

    Rouchefecauld once said, 'Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue,' but he was talking about the most corrupt courtiers in the most corrupt kingdom in the world.  

    If that's you see things, and that's how you want defend Obama, don't be surprised if plenty of us around here find you ridiculous.


    [ Parent ]

    Obama's broken record on choice (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:05:43 PM EST
    A statement vs many opposite actions. This is from Obama's web site:

    When anti-choice protesters blocked the opening of an Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic in a community where affordable health care is in short supply, I was the only candidate for President who spoke out against it.

    What he did was release a statement on Sept 18/2007 (and consider this my statement that I had a bran muffin and a double shot latte this morning.)

    The new Aurora, Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic has been forced to delay its anticipated September 18 opening. Planned Parenthood/Chicago Area is currently fighting the City of Aurora for withholding its business operating permit. A hearing is scheduled for Thursday. (Feminist Daily News Wire, David Dixon, Sept. 18, 2007)

    ... statement coming after the fact.

    The original opening date of Sept. 18 was delayed because city officials would not grant an occupancy permit while the review was under way. (Aurora Planned Parenthood clinic now open to patients By Tara Burghart, AP, Oct 0, 2007)

    Consider this my statement that I thought about adding a fruit cup to breakfast, but was short on time.

    And I will continue to defend this right by passing the Freedom of Choice Act as president.

    So shall I, so shall I (someday) when women can run for President free from the historically unprecedented barrage of misogyny that came directly from Obama and his campaign.

    An opportune statement buried on a personal web site is a tiny bat-squeak at odds with his massive contradictory actions that aren't the least bit centrist.

    Pandering hard to fanatically anti choice right wing evangelicals, stumping with an anti-choice and anti contraception Sen Casey, and being under the guidance of this anti-choice advisor (and presumptive SCOTUS pick) are FAR right of centrist or moderate actions.

    What's my rapidly vanishing choice on the matter? I choose to judge him by his actions, not words, and by what he's actually done to date, not what he promises he'll do when he's President.

    Randomly: I still can't find what he actually DID to oppose the invasion of Iraq, and he's drilled that so hard it's a wonder it's not gushing sweet Iraqi crude

    [ Parent ]

    What Record (none / 0) (#39)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:04:14 AM EST
    Obama's?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. Sen. Obama's record (3.50 / 2) (#44)
    by BlatantLiberal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:06:34 AM EST
    He has a clear history of supporting reproductive rights, civil rights, and minority rights. He has an excellent track record and 100% rating from NARAL.

    Sen. McCain is the kind of person who supports Justice Roberts, not Sen. Obama.

    That fact seems to be lost here.

    [ Parent ]

    Some of us (5.00 / 7) (#50)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:09:42 AM EST
    aren't convinced such a record exists.

    At least not to such an extent that questions don't remain relevant.


    [ Parent ]

    Oh, please. Don't lecture us (5.00 / 4) (#89)
    by Shainzona on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:39:51 AM EST
    about NARAL.  If that's all you can do, then you loose.  And, hopefully, so will Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama Has a Pro-Choice Voting Record (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by BDB on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:06:08 PM EST
    That's different from saying he supports or champions women's rights or reproductive rights.  From what I can tell, Obama is one of those Democrats who have never done a damned thing to actually fight for or support reproductive rights.  When pressed will vote the pro-choice vote, but even then he casts his support using all kind of undermining language.  

    In light of this, I don't see how abotion is any different for Obama than any other issue.  Why would I beleive he's going to fight for privacy rights for reproduction issues are any more sacred to him than privacy rights related to surveillance?  

    If you can name one thing Obama has done to support reproductive rights besides casting a vote, I'd love to hear it.  And, no, telling me abortion is never a good thing and that pro-choice forces don't acknowledge the moral dimensions to abortion (you know, like those forced birth zealonts do), doesn't count.


    [ Parent ]

    This For Instance (5.00 / 0) (#148)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:21:26 PM EST
    In the third, Howard discusses Obama's support for the pro-choice organizations that successfully mobilized to fight the South Dakota abortion ban in 2006. "Sen. Obama was the only U.S. senator to help in this effort," Howard says. "He wrote a letter, he raised money. Every pro-choice senator was asked and Sen. Obama was the only one to step up to the plate."

    Prospect

    Logic would tell you that if a lawmaker feels that abortion is a difficult issue, because of personal issues like religion, morals, or whatever, but stands 100% for the right for women to choose because he or she believes that no lawmaker has the right to impose his or her personal feelings on other Americans, that seems like a good thing.

    IOW Obama may have personal problems with abortion as do many pro choice lawmakers, but he is unequivocal in his supports for others (women's) right to choose what to do with their own bodies. That is a fact supported by his voting record and his public statements and actions.

    [ Parent ]

    why even bother? (5.00 / 0) (#175)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:49:45 PM EST
    Seriously. They know he's pro-choice and has fought for that cause. Nothing anyone says will get these folks to listen to reason.

    I'm not happy with his FISA stance so far (maybe he will redeem himself when the final bill hits the Senate) but I don't get the uproar over the Roberts vote. My understanding of a Senator's role in the confirmation process is that of evaluating whether the nominee is of sufficient legal mettle for the job. Roberts, like his positions or not, is a brilliant jurist, and he's more than fit for the Court.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow, That's A Lot of Typos (none / 0) (#142)
    by BDB on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:07:25 PM EST
    Sorry.  My main Mac crashed and I'm using my old one which has sticky keys.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama thugged NARAL for support ... (5.00 / 4) (#158)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:53:32 PM EST
    ... by making an example of them -- for other "issues groups" watching -- ie, by sending out a call for his supporters and the public to funnel funds for such "issues" to his campaign. Then they endorsed him.

    IMMEDIATELY he ran to embrace hard right, anti-choice evangelicals.

    The outcry from (NARAL) state chapters was huge. He deliberately harmed them yet again in the public eye for personal gain, and it's not like this straw (wo)man hasn't been bled out as the preferred whupping symbol by fauxgressives and conservatives alike for freakin' decades now (Even as a placeholder for all "special interests" it's the go-to one to hate.)

    Obama hasn't been a friend to women in his campaign, he has no intentions of being friendly as President and, should he be elected, he will be an active foe to women.

    [ Parent ]

    come on (5.00 / 0) (#176)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 02:52:54 PM EST
    What is with this evangelical hate? The basis of that outreach program is clearly to engage young evangelicals where their beliefs match ours - environmentalism and social justice, especially. Polling suggests that younger evangelicals are like younger secular people in that they don't relate to the culture-war paradigms of abortion and gays like their parents' generation.

    I think its a smart move not to cede religious voters to the GOP, especially when a good chunk of those voters are fundamentally liberal.

    [ Parent ]

    Risk const'nl rights on Politico's blather? (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:22:48 PM EST
    No thanks.

    What you're asking is a double layer of trust on sheer gossamer:

    Politico's word? Please.

    And the guarantee that Obama's courting ONLY evangelicals who are pro-choice?

    Strangely enough, neither is a compelling or solid reason to set aside Obama's own actions in other cases that would actively diminish women's autonomy, health and well being.

    [ Parent ]

    you're making quite a leap (none / 0) (#183)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:45:58 PM EST
    with these statements. How is Obama supposed to guarantee to you that he's only looking for pro-choice votes? The point is to GET VOTES, not to enforce ideological purity on people. His outreach to evangelicals is targeted at young religious voters, who, by and large, have shown their ability to personally dislike abortion but want it to remain safe and legal. I am one of these voters (although not an Evangelical).

    With due respect, may I ask about how old you are? I really think there is a generational gap here...I think folks my parents age see the word "evangelical" and think Falwell and Robertson. People my age generally don't have that association, as those two men have been buffoons for the entirety of our politically-aware lives.

    Regardless, I'm just not convinced that there's a threat to abortion rights from a Democratic candidate with a 100% lifetime rating from every major women's organization, regardless of whose vote he asks for.

    P.S. - do you think all of those "Reagan Democrats" Hillary claimed to represent are pro-choice?

    [ Parent ]

    'enforce ideological purity on people' (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:00:08 PM EST
    Riiiight.

    Since when is a woman acting on her right to be unharassed while making her own life decisions 'enforc[ing] ideological purity on people'?

    How is keeping uninvited government and individuals out of women's private spaces 'enforce ideological purity on people' -- who aren't part of the decision making process and don't belong there?

    Put your own body and rights on the block for your own ideology; don't ante up those of others and complain that they won't suffer for your abstract intellectual exercises.

    [ Parent ]

    This is a disappointing conversation (none / 0) (#195)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:32:58 PM EST
    since you apparently insist on taking everything I write out of context. Ensuring abortion rights isn't "ideological purity", it's smart public health and smart law.

    Insisting that everyone who votes for you have the exact same position you do on this particular issue...THAT is enforcing ideological purity. And as I said, do you think that any Democratic coalition, including Hillary's primary coalition, is uniformly pro-choice?

    [ Parent ]

    Then I'm not the one you should be convincing ... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:18:01 PM EST
    You should be making your concerns known to Dem leadership and, in particular, Sen Obama and his campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    have i expressed any concerns? (none / 0) (#203)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:36:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What hate? Cause I won't let them rule my life? (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:48:32 PM EST
    They can do whatever the hell they want.

    They have no business nosing into my medical appointments, legal counsel or religious choices (or atheist, personal code of my choosing).

    I know that's often presented as "hate" by people who need to Jeeb-up public spaces during holidays but they're not invited or welcome in my private business.

    Or to diminish neutral rights that belong to us all.

    [ Parent ]

    You're fighting a strawman (5.00 / 0) (#185)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:54:31 PM EST
    Yes, there are evangelical voters who want to ban abortion, put crosses in the courtrooms, etc. They vote Republican.

    Then there are others, younger ones, who don't care so much about that stuff and who are focused on the same issues we are: economic fairness, social justice, environmental action, and a charitable foreign policy. For many this is their first presidential election; others have sat elections out having been turned off by the right-wing political action of their parents' generation. It is these votes that Obama is going after with his program.

    [ Parent ]

    When Obama's done sorting the evangelical vote (none / 0) (#188)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:04:23 PM EST
    Then he can work on the millions of Discarded Democrats and Liberals he cut out of the party.

    Yes, there are evangelical voters who want to ban abortion, put crosses in the courtrooms, etc. They vote Republican.

    Well let's hope Obama's outreach Uniting with them will help them see the light, or different light -- whatever.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama isn't reaching out to those voters (5.00 / 0) (#194)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:28:49 PM EST
    as I explained very clearly in the post you're replying to.

    And if those "millions" of "discarded Democrats" exist, they don't show up in polls. I wonder why?

    [ Parent ]

    They aren't showing up (none / 0) (#202)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:33:25 PM EST
    because the pollsters are not taking into account that a huge number of us are no longer Democrats.  They are skewing their numbers by over-counting the percentage of the population that identifies itself as Dems. And some of us are having fun playing with the pollsters when they call. We're really here, and the numbers are growing, not getting smaller.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope you won't mind (none / 0) (#205)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:41:08 PM EST
    if I don't take your word for it and ask for some kind of statistical proof :) Just for reference, that's the same thing that the Ron Paul people said when asked why his support barely registered in polls: that they were all just playing around with the pollsters. We know how that ended up.

    (for example, the existence of websites and online petitions does not count as "proof")

    Also, most of these polls also ask for partisan ID - which is why you saw all of those stories come out last week about how partisan ID is now skewed higher for Democrats than ever before. Those numbers are then used in creating the sample. Do you think they're making up those numbers?


    [ Parent ]

    Brilliant Or Not (none / 0) (#179)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:15:44 PM EST
    I was really creeped out by Roberts. He seemed the perfect stealth right winger to me. The fact that BushCo refused to cooperate with advise and consent document requests was enough for me to know that Roberts was bad news.

    I am glad the Obama voted against him, at the very least for not cooperating with the Senate requests for information. Feingold et al were a great disappointment to me.

    [ Parent ]

    yeah, I guess that is why (none / 0) (#182)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:37:34 PM EST
    that noted misogynist, Hillary Clinton, has endorsed him.

    [ Parent ]
    Still flogging the Bad Obstacle Lady huh? (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:08:12 PM EST
    Really, Obama supporters need to move on.

    It doesn't look good on your candidate (or you) that Clinton's your focus rather than Obama's lack of leadership on FISA and SCOTUS.

    [ Parent ]

    WE need to move on? (1.00 / 1) (#192)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:13:05 PM EST
    You are the one making viscious, untrue, and downright absurd charges against the Democratic nominee. I only mention Hillary to help you realize how ridiculous your ranting has become.

    Hillary is not, of course, going to support and work her hardest for someone who would even be remotely like the person you pretend that Obama is.

    Just let go of the hate, already. Its becoming disfiguring.

    [ Parent ]

    Refute anything said about Obama on its own -- (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:27:45 PM EST
    -- rather than saying that Clinton did this or that.

    As for "hate" -- that's your bizarre interpretation of merely holding Obama to his own stated standards.

    I don't trust Obama based on his own ever-shifting positions.

    I don't think he's qualified to lead after seeing his his own words and actions, not the hearsay of others.

    [ Parent ]

    Hell hath no fury (2.00 / 4) (#201)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:24:34 PM EST
    like one of Our Lady's vestal torchbearers scorned.

    The phenomenon of the infinitly tolerable hypocrisy of the one and the outrageous hypocrisy of the other
    is a mystery that passes all understanding.

    [ Parent ]

    My refusal to support (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by samanthasmom on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:45:02 PM EST
    Senator Obama has nothing to do with Senator Clinton's loss. It's only about Senator Obama. I would have liked to see Senator Clinton as the Democratic nominee, but I accept that she's not. However, Senator Obama is not my second choice. I understand that you find it difficult to accept that this is not an emotional decision, but it truly isn't. You can write nasty comments about Senator Clinton's supporters, but to project your own reliance on your emotions ruling your decisions onto us is more telling about you than us.  

    [ Parent ]
    mentioning someone's name in passing (none / 0) (#196)
    by moe21885 on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:33:56 PM EST
    doesn't imply that we're "focusing" on them.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh please, Clinton continues to be the 'excuse' (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:15:21 PM EST
    ... to deflect from Obama's latest gaffe or letdown, even after suspending her campaign.

    Making her as the predictable deflection from every latest Obama screwup or gaffe -- as the apparent standard Barack "Change / Unity" Obama now has to meet -- isn't just in passing.

    It's continual. It's a failure to explain straightforwardly what Obama is doing based on his latest actions and words. Her endorsement and her record aren't relevant there.

    [ Parent ]

    Again, Obama wanted to support Roberts (4.80 / 5) (#47)
    by tigercourse on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:08:04 AM EST
    but was convinced not to by a political aide.

    [ Parent ]
    why do you keep repeating (none / 0) (#181)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:36:15 PM EST
    this silly rumor?

    [ Parent ]
    Not A Rumor (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:05:06 PM EST
    But a silly anti Obama talking point based on thin gruel, imo. TL covered it here.

    The idea that Obama based his decision soley because he thought it would harm his bid for POTUS, is absurd, imo. Nonetheless, if he was pandering it is one less thing that I will hold against him.

    [ Parent ]

    thanks for clarifying (none / 0) (#191)
    by tben on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 04:09:22 PM EST
    If they can't trash him for how he actually voted, I guess they need to trash him for actually thinking about how he would vote.

    They do get points for consistency, fwiw.

    [ Parent ]

    You're joking, right? (none / 0) (#134)
    by Boston Boomer on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 11:56:58 AM EST
    Pat Leahy and Russ Feingold aren't in safe seats?  That's a new one on me.  I never would have guessed.


    [ Parent ]
    This is getting too weird. (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by magisterludi on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:04:56 AM EST
    Obama just keeps getting creepier by the day. Who is this man, for crikessake?

    A man who ::wants:: (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 09:15:04 AM EST
    to become president. And will do what it takes to become president.

    A politician.

    [ Parent ]

    And will do whatever it takes to be reelected (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by prittfumes on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:19:22 AM EST
    to a second term. Now that he has the black vote firmly in his pocket, a vast donor list, millions of committed, unshakable and adoring fans, apparently he believes he can begin positioning himself for 2012, even before the fat lady sings his favorite tune this November. Seems to me he is beginning now to make himself palatable to middle-of-the-road and slightly-left-leaning Republicans.

    Remember his speech at the 2004 convention?

    [T]here is not a liberal America and a conservative America -- there is the United States of America.


    [ Parent ]
    This is just a sample of "who (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    he is" "Fast Eddie" Obama's a slickster, at least according to David Brooks..

    [ Parent ]
    That's not "necessarily" a bad thing (3.00 / 0) (#166)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 01:23:09 PM EST
    I think, though perhaps in many if not most cases it turns out to be.

    It take a major league sized ego, the metaphorical and actual ability to outslick and out shuffle and out rope-a-dope all the other contenders, and maybe at least a little bit of craziness or a touch of insanity to want to be president, I think.

    "I am the Greatest!" --Muhammad Ali

    [ Parent ]

    He's a Mainstream Democrat going to the center (2.66 / 3) (#37)
    by BlatantLiberal on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:01:09 AM EST
    In a general ele