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First Amendment Meets Large Stick

By TChris, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:23:51 PM EST
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Philosophy from a police officer who watched Celtics fans celebrate Boston's NBA Championship yesterday:

Disorderly, drunken “celebrations” in the middle of public streets - otherwise known as riots - are not good times to have discussions of civil rights or the First Amendment with the police officer holding a large stick.

That's particularly true when the stick-wielding officer views drunken revelry as a riot.

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    First Amendment Meets Large Stick | 24 comments (24 topical)

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    Whar a d*ck.... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:14:43 PM EST
    Anytime is a good time to discuss civil liberty sir.

    Believe it or not, the police clad in riot gear are NOT there for your entertainment

    I'm more than aware, you are there to violate the civil liberty you don't want to acknowledge.

    What astounds me and my fellow police officers is to witness, first-hand, how people who would probably be intelligent citizens during the daytime can turn into such utter buffoons by night.

    What astounds me is to witness how people who would probably be fun and freedom loving citizens by day can turn into such utter buffoons on the job.

    Uh (3.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:26:40 PM EST
    Met any boston fans?

    Yes, I am one (none / 0) (#20)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:22:36 PM EST
    I live walking distance from Boston Garden. Boston is actually a small city so that the crowd really spreads out and is raucous.  The real problem is alcohol, more than anything else.  There have been two very innocent bystanders killed during these celebrations over the past four years.  It does get out of hand.  I don't like the officers verbiage, but . . .

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    I was there (none / 0) (#2)
    by BostonJ3K on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:36:25 PM EST
    As a child of alcoholics who has been to any number of sports championships (including this Celtics victory) both at home and abroad I can say first hand that this police officer is not only out of line, but promoting the kind of "law and order" nonsense that blatantly disregards not only the 1st Amendment but also a reasoned sociological and historical understanding of the term "celebration".

    One more reason that the Boston Herald's agenda is completely out of line.

    Is this (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:40:30 PM EST
    Celebration?

    link

    thanks for the 1, btw.

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    Is there any allegation..... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:51:23 PM EST
    ...that the link you provided (to a superbowl event) was in any way, shape or form similar to the Celtics celebration?

     I went to a Big Ten school, lived close to the stadium and just locked myself in my dorm room on game days. I've seen nasty riots.  That doesn't seem to cut it.

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    When entering a situation (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:54:07 PM EST
    Cops will tend to be trained and prepped on the severity of prior situations.

    It's possible they over-reacted to the Celtics situation.

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    Or even probable... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:59:55 PM EST
    ...but the tone and underlying approach of that article was obnoxious. Peace officers are armed and held to higher standards.  And for me, this quote:

    Advice to women: Please be aware that when you wear minimal attire into Boston Garden-area pubs not known for white-glove service, and proceed to imbibe copious amounts of amber fluid, speak in tongues and then dance suggestively in the middle of Causeway Street, the chances of having similarly-inebriated males address you civilly are markedly decreased.

     Pretty much sums up what I think of the officer and where he is coming from, which is to say, not much.

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    Great (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:07:07 PM EST
    The cop's no hero.

    My input here is not to elevate the cop.

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    Trained And Prepped? (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:03:24 PM EST
    That is OK but is seems that to act in an inappropriate way can turn a non violent raucous situation into a riot. The best training would be to stay in present time and not act based on a history lesson.

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    No (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:10:15 PM EST
    Using past experience to determine a course of action is certainly not a good idea.

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    How can you tell? (none / 0) (#22)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:36:02 PM EST
    What is the exact moment when a celebration turns ugly? I've been in a few celebratory crowds, myself, and they tend to be very intimidating. Throw in a few jerks who are there not to celebrate but instead to use the celebration as an opportunity to let off some steam, and you have a volatile situation.

    When I lived in Chico, right after Chico State was declared "the best party college in America", a lot of out of town kids started showing up for major events and literally rioting. It wasn't the locals - all of the arrests tended to be out of town college students who just showed up to get drunk and make trouble.

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    Uh, didn't you guys see (none / 0) (#4)
    by mikeyleigh on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:42:31 PM EST
    any of the pictures of cars and boxes being set on fire during the so-called "victory" celebrations.  I went through the 94 and 95 Rockets NBA championship celebrations and never ever felt the slightest urge to get drunk or set fires.  I'm kinda on the side of the cops on this one.

    So they catch the guilty parties? (none / 0) (#6)
    by pie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:46:02 PM EST
    Doubtful.

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    The point is to keep the crowd from (none / 0) (#24)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:01:01 PM EST
    getting to the fire-setting, car-overturning, physical-damage to others point.

    It's the anonymity of being in a big crowd and the unlikelihood of actually getting caught that encourages people to go crazy in ways they never would if they were, say, hanging around at home with a group of friends watching the game.  The functional intelligence plummets to the lowest common denominator.  If they can't keep it calm (er) before the flashpoint, then it's all lost anyway.

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    Somewhat surprisingly to some (none / 0) (#16)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:33:01 PM EST
    so am I.

    Have you ever been in a real mob?  I have.  It's effing terrifying.  It can turn from joyous celebration to a riot in an instant.  Fun and shouting is one thing, flipping cars and setting fires is another.  With thousand of (often inebriated) people about, it takes a very, very few to switch the crowd from elation to destruction.

    When I lived in Chicago I'd lock myself in no later than halftime during the NBA finals when the Bulls played.  I didn't even live anywhere near the big riot zones, but fans drove through my neighborhood 'celebrating' by throw beer bottles and anything else they had at passersby, smashing car windows, store windows, anything.

    Could just about any police dept's riot control be improved?  Undoubtedly.  I've also been in perfectly peaceful crowds protesting with the greater part of the city's police dept surrounding in full riot gear.  That was nothing but intimidation.

    But given the number of post-sports-finals-riots in major cities, I find it hard to blame police for being a bit overcautious.

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    Points taken.... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:42:53 PM EST
    but the Bill of Rights is very firm in not allowing the state to be too overcautious.

    If the choice is the occasional riot (if your city is lucky enough to win the title) or letting stick-wielding police with an attitude like the clown who wrote this op-ed be overcautious...well that's a no-brainer for me.

    Not to mention aggressive police tactics is not always the best response to drunken revelry.

    Parent

    Big talk (none / 0) (#5)
    by pie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:43:31 PM EST
    after accidentally killing a young woman during the celebration of Boston winning the World Series in 2004.

    Practically speaking (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:50:32 PM EST
    It's unfortunate but the only real way to do this is deal with it proactively.

    Deal with it the way San Francisco eventually had to deal with Halloween in the Castro.

    People don't like it, but nobody dies.

    Set the ground rules ahead of time. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Fabian on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:27:19 PM EST
    Enforce the rules.

    OSU had problems after home football games.  At least some (most IMO) of the troublemakers were not the out of town fans who came for the game, but local youth who began to show up to play "bait the cops".  It's unlikely that middle age football fans were setting dumpster fires and throwing objects at peace officers.

    So they laid down ground rules, cracked down on keg parties and crowds gathering and other proactive measures.  Worked nicely.  There's usually plenty of laws on the books to enforce.

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    US Arms Dealer Arrested (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:08:12 PM EST
    A 22-year-old munitions dealer and others in his Miami Beach company were arrested on charges of selling prohibited Chinese weaponry to the U.S. government to supply allied forces in Afghanistan, according to law enforcement officials.

    [snip]

    The company landed its first military contract in 2004, generating revenue of more than $1 million. But Diveroli's business with the Defense Department grew so dramatically that he snared contracts worth $200 million last year. The largest was to supply ammunition to the Afghan National Police and the Afghan National Army, which were fighting al Qaeda and Taliban insurgents.

    [snip]

    Diveroli might be the only U.S.-approved munitions supplier with a MySpace account. He kept his active until 2005. In his biography, he describes himself as "a super nice guy."

    link

    For more on this rather amazing story, see this longish NYT article from March this year.

    Oops! (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:15:03 PM EST
    Meant to post this in open thread....

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    I have to give him this one (none / 0) (#21)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:30:14 PM EST
    Too many "celebrations" have turned into riots recently to think that any of them aren't likely to. How can an officer know if somebody in a loud, excited, drunken crowd is about to throw a bottle at him (or her)? Obviously, every office should be patient and tolerant, but I have sympathy for any officer in charge of crowd control in the midst of drunken revelry.

    So do I. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Fabian on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:51:03 PM EST
    OSU has had its problems.

    Nothing like streets and alleys crowded with people, which makes emergency response difficult.  Add in people throwing objects and something as "simple" as a dumpster fire could become a whole lot more if fire trucks can't get there quickly.

    We had one house fire near us when we lived just north of campus.  The house was damaged, no one was hurt, but even with rapid response the neighboring house suffered damage.  If the response had been delayed, it could have been two houses in flames.

    (Reminds me of the great Northeastern Blackout.  My mother was driving home nervously as all traffic lights were out.  As she crept along residential streets, she saw people out in their yards, hoses in hand, watering their lawns.  No power => pumping stations not functioning => declining water pressure and limited water supply.  Those people were literally putting lives and property at risk in order to give their grass a drink.  I hate having to treat people like idiots, but sometimes you really have to.  When the power goes out, DO NOT WATER THE LAWN!)

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    First Amendment Meets Large Stick | 24 comments (24 topical)

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