home

A Good Question To Opponents Of The Unity Ticket

Kathleen Reardon asks:

Why would a Hillary Clinton supporter vote for McCain? It does seem ludicrous. After all, he represents four to eight more years of George W. Bush. The country can't afford that.

. . . Yet why not turn the question around? If keeping McCain out of the White House is vital to America, why, despite what's touted as Hillary Clinton's "baggage," would Barack Obama not want her as the vice presidential candidate any less than she, as the nominee, would want him in that spot if it made a McCain win unlikely? Revenge? Not good enough. Disdain for a woman who criticized him as not ready to be president?

More...

But, the country is at stake in so many ways. Believing that unity is possible without her? Risky. So the question cuts both ways. Why should Barack Obama let McCain win if that's exactly what Clinton and her supporters should not do? Wouldn't he be diminishing hope in favor of hubris?

Indeed.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only.

Comments closed.

< The Worst Argument Against A Unity Ticket | SD and MT Polls >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Yes, hubris. (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:35:18 AM EST


    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:36:45 AM EST
    Hubris is a good word.

    Parent
    If he does not offer the VP slot to Hillary (5.00 / 11) (#3)
    by Joelarama on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:38:04 AM EST
    it will be disdain.

    And everyone who isn't blind (blinded by Kool-Aid) will see it for what it is:  personal disdain.

    The "Kool-aid" is being (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:29:28 AM EST
    accepted by all who think this primary is over, as well.

    Hillary can't do this alone, and her supporters are spending too much time speculating an Obama ticket.

    Even Kennedy and Kerry couldn't give Obama Massachusetts. This man is still beatable, I'm convinced of it.


    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#194)
    by rnibs on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:25:00 AM EST
    They keep throwing out millions of reasons not to pick her, but it all comes down to the same thing.

    Parent
    They Won't (5.00 / 16) (#4)
    by Athena on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:39:15 AM EST
    This is a litmus test for the depth of Hillary-hatred.  And it's off the charts. Pragmatic considerations will fail.  And they're having too much fun in the frat house to stop now.  The collapse of DK into a pigpen is dramatic evidence of that.  And it's still open for business.

    Is "member" BINX the rebirth of (none / 0) (#221)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:48:12 AM EST
    Tano

    or minordomo in disguise?


    Parent

    I wish someone would think of (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:40:27 AM EST
    addressing Obama's various other problems, instead of constantly harping on unity, as if a unified party will certainly save us. We were pretty darn unified 4 years ago and we missed by 2.5 million votes.

    Yes, unity is important. But Obama must also find a way to tackle his lack of experience, his awful personal ties and Bushesque approach to politics.

    Don't lets put all our eggs in one basket.

    you (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:27 AM EST
    have to give BTD credit here though. He hasn't been like the other ostriches out there and has openly discussed Obama's electoral and demographic problems.

    Parent
    Oh, yeah I'll give BTD a lot of credit. He's (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:49:29 AM EST
    been very honest and fair. I'm sure he's just trying to find a way to make this situation work. I just disagree with the idea that unity will save us.

    Parent
    It won't save us, but it might help. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:22:26 AM EST
    This election is going to be very, very tough.  Lots of people don't realize how tough it will be and we are going to need everyone in the party to hang together or we will probably lose.

    Parent
    finally this morning (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:32:32 AM EST
    I heard a "newsperson" speak the truth about this election.
    Dan Rather, on morning Joe, said McCain will win.

    Parent
    Interesting. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:34:13 AM EST
    And what was the basis for Gunga Dan making such a statement?

    Parent
    women hispanics and blue collar voters (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:34:58 AM EST
    btw (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:37:22 AM EST
    on the subjectof hubris, it seems to me that after the treatment of Hillary and her supporters this cycle, expecting them to ever vote for you would be, as far as I can see, the definition of hubris.

    Parent
    like I was saying: (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:39:40 AM EST

    Main Entry: hu·bris
    Pronunciation: &#712;hyü-brəs\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Greek hybris
    Date: 1884

    : exaggerated pride or self-confidence

    Parent

    Especially when you keep insulting (none / 0) (#184)
    by Coral on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:19:49 AM EST
    them. Not only hubris, but chutzpah as well.

    Parent
    Fortunately for our side, (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:48:56 AM EST
    general elections aren't held in June.  If they were, we would have a President Rauss Poirot in 92 since Bill was mired in a depressing 3d place even behind Poppy and that was after cleaning up in the primaries from March to June.

    Right now, the biggest concern is not Hispanics or beer truck Dems but the women who've supported my candidate.  So O and his team best be about the business over the next 2.5 months in healing this particular wound.

    Parent

    They (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:16:44 AM EST
    aren't into healing. And they really can't do it. McCain will remind every female voter out there how Obama has repeatedly behaved.

    Parent
    The Dem Party bigwigs (none / 0) (#218)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    in the next 2-3 months until the convention are going to insist on a Healing Strategy for TeamObama, so there's really no choice.

    If they fail to get the message, or are acting indifferently or incompetently, well, there's the threat that the SDs will massively pull back their support and go with Hillary.

    As for McCain, he also has his issues with women/Hillary women when he spectacularly failed to immediately call out that McC backer who asked him What do we do about the B___?

    Parent

    I Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:22:56 AM EST
    Obama's problems aren't limited to women who supported Hillary. Obama has shown definite weaknesses with women, the working class and seniors. I won't comment on the hispanic vote because I don't know enough about that demographic to determine if they will come around.

    He has his work cut out for him within all of these demographics.

    Parent

    I'd love to address his other problems (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:12:08 AM EST
    I just don't see a way to do it.

    But I bet Bill Clinton does.

    Parent

    Easy. (5.00 / 4) (#82)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:23:44 AM EST
    Run HRC with Clark as her VP. Tell Obama that his New Kind of Politics = Tammany Hall-style, pay-to-play corruption.

    We don't need Obama's New Plutocratic Party that disdains the working class in favor of the so-called "Creative Class." We have those people in power already - they're called Republicans.

    We don't like them.

    Obama's supporters will, given exit polling, mostly vote for Hillary. Plus, she's got her own coalition of Clinton Dems that is far deeper and wider than Obama's. She will win in a landslide.

    This is the only way to revitalize the Democratic Party and make it a true force for change in America. If we allow the Democratic Party to become the Obama Party, it will be "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

    Parent

    But will Hillary's supporters vote for Obama? (none / 0) (#100)
    by kindness on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
    Yer putting the cart before the horse.  Barack is the projected nominee, not Hillary.

    If Barack is nominate, and Hillary is not chosen as his running mate, will you vote for the Democratic Party nominee?

    I know, you've stated previously that you won't.  With that in mind, why do you continue to play out a line where it is Hillary that is nominated?  (and it appears that you don't want Barack for a VP spot either....so much for Unity I guess)

    Parent

    Sen Clinton doesn't have a vote on how I vote (5.00 / 6) (#124)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:48:16 AM EST
    What Team Obama does not get is that, no matter how much I respect Sen Clinton or support her candidacy, no individual can order or decree how I cast my ballot.

    This ridiculous notion -- and pre-blaming measure IMO -- that Sen Clinton can redirect the flow of votes that would otherwise go her way into Obama's column is ridiculous.

    Obama has to earn my vote. He isn't entitled to it just because he's the presumptive Dem choice. He isn't entitled to it because he's a Dem.

    I speak for myself only.

    LITERALLY.

    Parent

    They can blame me all they want (5.00 / 7) (#193)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:24:52 AM EST
    I'm a feminist.  I'm used to it.  This lot is a bunch of pikers compared to what I've experienced in the past.

    I admire Clinton greatly, and I will weigh her preferences heavily in my decision but at the end of the day, but my opposition to Obama is independent of my support her.

    I will, however, draw from her amazing example, smile at the Blame-Gamers, and go about the business of fighting for the welfare of my country anyway.

    Parent

    tell you the truth i never considered myself (none / 0) (#231)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:49:12 PM EST
    a feminist. in fact i prided myself on just being me. but this election has changed my mind. i no longer will tolerate any put downs or sweeties. yeah, i hear it and have ignored it for years. i give most guys the benefit of a doubt. most have good intentions, etc. but the hate i see in the obama camaign makes me think about the rap culture, which obama copied in his famous off my shoulder speech. so blame women and call them whoxxx. where does that culture respect women? it doesn't. you know obama has to seek a higher level if he is going to lead and inspire. he doesn't do that. he joys in the distain and hatred of hillary who is nothing more than a representative of women. that's right, the distain is for us the women voters. i hope some of you think about that while on here trying to convince us to vote for obama.

    Parent
    OK, in the spirit of negotiation (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:51:22 AM EST
    I'll take Obama as VP.

    Parent
    But Bill gets his dinner first (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:54 AM EST
    Truly - just kidding

    Parent
    He could at least try to make policy (4.55 / 9) (#78)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:21:13 AM EST
    an important part of his campaign. I imagine he needs to study up on his positions first, but he should at least give it a shot. Running on personality and biograpy against McCain will be a suicide mission.

    Parent
    I wish I could give you a million fives for (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:23:52 AM EST
    that comment.

    Parent
    No kidding (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:26:16 AM EST
    Let's see...  Over here we've got a guy who was tortured as a POW and refused to leave when he had the chance because he wouldn't leave his men behind.  And over here we've got a guy whose single mom was on food stamps for a couple of years, apparently not even when he was living with her.  Oh, and he lived in Indonesia for a while.

    Yeah, that'll work.

    Parent

    Here's the problem... (5.00 / 16) (#94)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:31:01 AM EST
    he's been trying to do that for the past few weeks. Remember how he declared, a couple of weeks ago, that he was going to now run against McCain?

    He tried to take McCain on in Foreign Policy.

    That did not go well.

    In panic, he then resorted to his normal tactic of manufacturing scandal against HRC, vis-a-vis RFK. That went a lot better for him.

    Obama doesn't have what it takes on the issues. Otherwise, he would have run on them from the very beginning...and I'd personally be a lot more okay about his campaign.

    Parent

    I'd give you a million fives for that one (4.83 / 6) (#107)
    by MMW on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:38:14 AM EST
    He can't run on policy because he has no credibility there. He's on all sides of the fence with no grounding. There is not enough time left in the next four years for him to learn policy, not even his.

    Can George Bush name any of his policies?

    Parent

    Again, the onus is on Hillary (5.00 / 10) (#7)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:40:29 AM EST
    instead of Obama. Why is it never about Obama???? It has been reported that the Obama's do not like the Clintons. In my judgement, if there were not the Clintons then the Obama's would not be where they are today. What happened to respecting the elder (if you will) party members. What a croc!!
    If Obama loses in Nov. he and his will blame Hillary, there is no doubt. She is the reason he cannot be annoited or win on his own!!!!!!!

    Obama's people don't like Clinton (1.66 / 6) (#75)
    by lgm on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:20:37 AM EST
    This blog gets ten posts per second mostly from Clinton supporters who hate Obama, Democrats who would rather vote for McCain or Atilla the Hun than support a Democrat whose actyal views are pretty close to Clinton's.

    If Obama loses in November, you bet I will blame Clinton, both of them.  

    Parent

    But-but-but CLINTON! IACF! (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:26:20 AM EST
    Hilarious.

    Parent
    Obama's no Democrat (5.00 / 9) (#89)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:26:59 AM EST
    He's an opportunist who joined the Democratic party because it was the party of power in Chicago, which is his home base. It's all about expedience rather than actual philosophy.

    All Obama does is sing the praises of the Republicans, particularly Reagan and Bush I, over any other president. He's even lauded Richard Nixon.

    Oddly enough, the people who are fanning the flames of this Clinton hate are former Republicans such as Markos and Arianna Huffington. They're hardly Democrats either.

    The Democratic party has been hijacked by lapsed Republicans and neo-liberals in the same way the Republican party had been hijacked by the Religious Right years before. Make no mistake, those of us who are true and life long Democrats are leaving in droves to protest this cr@p.

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    Today, I feel as if my party has been hijacked.  

    Parent
    I've been feeling that way for a while (5.00 / 5) (#111)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:41:50 AM EST
    but this weekend just cemented it.

    I am hardly a naive voter, I know about backroom deals, dirty politics and what people have to do to win. But this is just too much -- not when we were poised to win in a landslide thanks to anti-Bush sentiment and 8 years of Republican thuggery. We had the moral high ground and now the RBC just p!ssed it away.

    And personally, Obama's character issues and questionable associations have bothered me for quite some time. Unlike some people, this whole ramping up of Religion scares me. I have no more interest in the Religious (supposed) Left in the White House than I do with the Religious Right.

    The founding fathers of this country would be appalled.

    Parent

    At least Alexis Herman had the stones... (5.00 / 5) (#164)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:07:58 AM EST
    to state in the record that her fellow Co-chair, and the Obamabots who had hijacked the committee, were violating the Democratic Charter with full awareness of their actions. If the class-action law suit brewing, demanding the DNC refund all dues because of mis-representation, ever sees the inside of a courtroom that statement will bankrupt the party. Of course it will not be heard until next year. I bet the Republican Supreme Court would love to rule on that one.

    Parent
    Didn't praise Reagan (1.00 / 2) (#138)
    by lgm on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:53:36 AM EST
    Go back and look at what Obama said about Reagan.  "Reagan changed the course of the country."  I wish this were not true, but it is.  

    As for experience, most of Clinton's and McCain's "experience" consists of making bad decisions.  Hillarycare, Iraq, Iran, gas tax holiday, ... .  I'll take a newbie over that "experience", please.

    Parent

    We did that with George Bush (5.00 / 5) (#168)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:09:03 AM EST
    Only a fool repeats his mistakes and expects different results.

    Parent
    No, these posts are not about hate against (5.00 / 4) (#91)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:29:36 AM EST
    Obama.  What you fail to understand is that many of us feel he is unqualified to be president.  An unqualified person in that office is a disaster waiting to happen.  Because he has a D after his name doesn't make him the best person.  Because he may feel similarly on some issues is not enough of a reason to vote for him.  He has poor judgment, is inexperienced, is arrogant, petulant, immature and untested.  We've had 8 years of that.  Obama has the opportunity to change some minds but it will take maturity and humility, some things I think he lacks and may never have.  So don't tell me that I hate someone when you have no earthly idea what my feelings are.  Dislike, distrust, anger and many other emotions are valid, but they are not hate.  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#110)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:40:34 AM EST
    I like obama and feel he brings good things to the table.  He would be a good VP choice for a more experienced Pres candidate.

    I don't like the way his campaign has been waged, and I do not think he will be a very good president at this time, when he is walking into very tough problems I don't think he is qualified to solve.

    A great VP choice will help.

    Parent

    ruffian, Please tell me (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:13 AM EST
    "what" good things he (Obama) brings to the table?

    Parent
    I welcome a fresh outlook (none / 0) (#183)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:19:22 AM EST
    at how we approach doing business in Washington. I agree with him that the system is broken. He has not been there that long and may have some actual ideas behind the rhetoric. I'd like to see him put them into action...from his seat in the senate or as VP.

    As I said, it does not mean that I want him to be president.

    Parent

    Fresh outlook? What a joke. This is a guy who (5.00 / 3) (#204)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:31:02 AM EST
    is a Chicago machine politician.  What part of that phrase do you not understand?  We are talking about a person who games the system to beat people, a person who makes rude gestures to his opponent, who hangs out with really, really questionable people.  

    And yes the system is broken but what you fail to understand it that it is the DNC, Donna Brazile, Howard Dean and their ilk who are responsible for the system being broken.  And no one person will ever be enough to change the system in Washington, DC.  I don't care how many times he reads the words hope and change.  It will not happen.  And Obama is not man enough to get it done.  He is a politician.  Get real.

    Parent

    This (5.00 / 15) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:41:25 AM EST
    argument is the one that I have been using with Obama supporters. Right now all indications are that Obama will lose the general election. If the Supreme court and all those other issues are so darn important to them then why are they so set on nominating a likely loser? My impression is that if these issues aren't important enough to the party to put up the strongest candidate then why should I care either?

    Someone needs to pull the (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:40 AM EST
    curtain open and expose that he is just a man, not great, flawed, inexperienced, confused, who lacks leadership and has learned always blame someone or something else.  

    Parent
    Why did BO stump w/ anti-choice Sen Casey? (5.00 / 6) (#136)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:59 AM EST
    Sen Casey regards women as birth-pods for fertilized eggs.

    Obama reached out to other no-choice deadbeats and his whole Unity platform is based on "uniting" with the far right at the cost of dividing his own party.

    Obama's not going to liberalize the SCOTUS.

    That's on his head, not mine, as I declared Independence from the Dems.

    Parent

    Why did HRC stump with anti-choice Gov Strickland? (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Ramo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:18:25 AM EST
    Same reason.  

    Parent
    Will people stop calling for Unity Ticket (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by TalkRight on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:43:46 AM EST
    I for once agree with Pelosi.. not gonna happen and NOT because Hillary will not agree, but because Obama and his supporters have a big ego.. and I thank them for that.. otherwise I would be hate to vote for McCain while Hillary is on another ticket.

    I want to be vote for McCain without the feeling of guilt.

    Thanks you Obama.. please don't pick Hillary.. please.

    If Obama is the nominee and does not select (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:44:42 AM EST
    Hillary as the VP candidate it will be very telling as to how and why he makes the decisions he does.  Selecting a VP running mate is the first and most critical decision a nominee must make.  And to make a bad decision for wrong reasons will tell you exactly how that person will try to govern.  Think about it....

    For Those Who Didn't Get the Memo (5.00 / 15) (#14)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:10 AM EST
    Neither Obama nor the Democratic Party has any responsibility for unifying the party and it will not be his fault or the party's fault.    Obama has done all he needs to do by winning and the party everything it can by siding with him to end it.  Ending the contest = UNITY.  Everything else is up to Hillary and her supporters (or other non-Obama folks).  Obama, his supporters, and party leaders have been screaming this message for months, take them at their word.

    I don't think you got (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:51:38 AM EST
    the memo: you don't persuade your former opponents to vote for you by lecturing them about it's entirely their responsibility to vote for your man, and nobody cares how they might feel about it.

    If Obama is anything like you -- and it seems to me that he is -- then he can kiss the general election goodbye. Of course, he'll have a great tale to relate about how wonderfully righteous he was in what he did when he lost an election that could have not been more heavily favoring his party.

    Parent

    Was your post sarcasm? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:53:00 AM EST
    My apologies if so.

    Obama supporters often engage in self parody, so that parody by others is often lost on me.

    Parent

    It was sarcasm I believe. :-) (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:54:28 AM EST
    Yep (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:08:51 AM EST
    Sorry if my snark was unclear, I realized it after I hit "post."

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 6) (#92)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:30:22 AM EST
    That is, indeed, exactly what the memo says.

    "If we lose, it's the fault of the people who didn't vote for us."  Good, all-purpose political epitaph.

    Parent

    They will find it a lot harder (5.00 / 6) (#131)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:51:50 AM EST
    to count non-existent votes in the GE than they did in the fight for the nomination.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:53:26 AM EST
    It's how Donna Brazile keeps her job.

    After Saturday, I've gone from sad about changing my voter registration to joyful. I've never seen a group of people more divorced from reality in my life than some of those RBC members.  I'm happy I'll no longer be formally associated with them.

    Parent

    I said much the same thing (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Demi Moaned on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:14 AM EST
    ... the other day over at the GOS with little notice.

    Whenever I raise the topic of the Unity Ticket, people start frothing at the mouth about how she doesn't deserve it or about how important it is for Obama's Transformation to work that the Clinton's be banished from political life.

    Very few bother to make what seems to me the only possible relevant argument: that she might be a drag on the ticket.

    You mention "Obama's Transformation" (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:49:05 AM EST
    What exactly is Obama's Transformation?

    Parent
    Do I know? (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Demi Moaned on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:51:41 AM EST
    To me it's an example of the delusional thinking among a rather loud contingent of Obama supporters.

    OTOH, they would say that might not seeing it indicates how old and trapped in conventional thinking I am.

    Parent

    I urge you to go back and (none / 0) (#32)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:54:08 AM EST
    ask "them" what to further clarify what that means, because I sure don't understand what you are saying.

    Parent
    A drag on the ticket? She's received more votes (5.00 / 6) (#29)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:52:44 AM EST
    than anyone in the history of primaries and you're saying she will be a drag on the ticket?  Get real.

    Parent
    Subjunctive (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Demi Moaned on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:57:32 AM EST
    I did not say she would be a drag on the ticket. Like most of the people here, I think she would be a big boon.

    But if someone thought that to be the case, that would be a relevant argument.

    And you could then argue on whether or not that is the case.

    Parent

    Those are good questions. (5.00 / 28) (#22)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:48:52 AM EST
    But the reason the Party isn't going to unite behind Obama has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton.

    It's because Obama's voters and Hillary's voters do NOT have a common goal.

    Hillary's voters want an experienced, qualified leader to beat McCain and carry our traditional Democratic goals forward.

    Obama's voters want to take over the Democratic Party. Beating McCain and running the White House in a competent manner are secondary to some and unimportant to others.

    What you are really arguing for is submission, not unity.

    That's why it's not going to happen with Obama as the nominee.

    I think (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:59:30 AM EST
    that about sums it up.

    Parent
    Just to add (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:28:43 AM EST
    unity will not unity can not ......    It will only do horrible damage to the cause of unity to put on display Clinton delivering a speech while obama stands behind her just so to the right looking down his nose on the proceedings.

    What a nightmare.

    Parent

    Bingo (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by lambert on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:20:23 AM EST
    As I keep saying:

    For Obama and the OFB, taking over the party machinery is the have-to-have.

    Winning the Presidency is the nice-to-have.

    That's the only model I've ever been able to come up with that explains their behavior.

    Parent

    Agree 100% (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:30:00 AM EST
    I don't approve of the direction of the NEW Democratic Party (i.e. Obama Party) which is the main reason I will probably not vote for Obama in November. For me, this is not about Hillary. That is why nothing Hillary says or does will impact my decision if Obama is the nominee. I'll have to see if anything Obama says or does will be able to overcome my aversion to the NEW Democratic Party.

    Parent
    He would just drag her down. (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by vicsan on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:50:17 AM EST
    Honestly. She's too good for him. Why should she help  him win after the trashing he gave her? She's a racist, remember? Not only that, when the GE kicks in all of the Obama garbage WILL come out. The GOP will destroy that man (not the word I would choose here). When he goes down, why should Hillary? HE would destroy her too just by being connected to him as his VP.

    The MSM LOVES John McCain. This is all a set up. Once BO is the nominee they will all of a sudden have a TON of "Breaking News" on BO and it won't be good news.

    I think it would be a HUGE mistake for her to agree to be his VP, but that's just me.

    A huge mistake. (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by mikeyleigh on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:44:09 AM EST
    If he wins, it's because Obama is a great candidate, a champion of hope and change.  If he loses, it's Hillary's fault.

    Parent
    he can't lose his "why I lost" insurance (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:51:51 AM EST
    If he picked Clinton as VP and she accepted, then Obama would loose his most valuable thing going from what I hear in the MSM and Kool-Aid Blogs (KABs), his excuse for loosing in November. Remember, it will all be Hillary's fault when he looses. So if she's the VP nominee, what will his excuse be then.  OK, a bit of a snark. :-)

    It's simple, (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:55:44 AM EST
    for me. I don't want Hillary Clinton associated any more closely with Barack Obama. I don't want a woman having to pick up the slack for a man, any man, much less one who has run a campaign based on denigrating  HRC, WJC, and fighting Dems. So, no unity ticket for me. I subscribe to the PUMA theory.

    That said, I will vote against McCain in November. For the Dem, simply because the Dem has the best chance of beating McCain.

    Why? The Rs must be repudiated. Thoroughly. They have run this country into the ground and, from Bush v. Gore on, have twisted and made mock of the principles which gave me pride in this country.

    It's that simple. I do, however, understand and respect others' reasoning wrt their vote in November.

    Please clarify your argument. (none / 0) (#39)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:58:34 AM EST
    This is not about a woman and a man, this is about who best in our own judgement can be the president.

    Parent
    x (none / 0) (#53)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:08:33 AM EST
    Sorry, how was I not clear? I find it personally offensive after this primary to have Hillary Clinton lower herself to perform janitorial duties for Barack Obama. That's the specific. I find it almost equally distasteful when it's a generic woman/man.

    Of those who are in the running this year, who in my judgment would be the best President? Hillary Clinton, without a doubt.

    Parent

    I think Obama is finished w/o HRC as VP... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Arjun on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:03:46 AM EST
    I'm really not sure why Obama supporters think that HRC adds "baggage" to the ticket. Granted, it will annoy some Obama supporters, but very few of them are likely to abandon their candidate just for choosing Hillary. Without Hillary on the ticket, McCain is competitive in New Hampshire, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Colorado and Nevada, easily passing the necessary 270 electoral votes. That's a disaster scenario that Obama should try to prevent at all costs.

    Rising black turnout isn't going to save him. It could be negligible in swing states, and the states with the highest black populations are likely to go red come november anyway. The demographics of the democratic party aren't the same as the entire country. He's going to need HRC.

    Agreed Arjun. I could add more but I don't want (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by iceblinkjm on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:18:17 AM EST
    to be accused of playing racial politics. The DNC made a big mistake this year by not consolidating it's coalition and locking in the blue collar, lower income white vote and also not going after the Latino vote. It also made a big mistake when it decided it was going to appease the black community at the expense of the other groups in the party.

    Parent
    that "mistake" is going to cost the (none / 0) (#118)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:45:54 AM EST
    democratic party the office of the president. and if they keep up their lack of concern for their fellow americans, it could be very costly in the mid terms. but when in recent years have these so called democratic leaders shown they were listening or sadly even cared about us.

    Parent
    maybe if we start losing enough... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Arjun on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:47:24 AM EST
    we will begin to learn from history

    Parent
    the sad thing the public has learned (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:49:15 AM EST
    but the dem leadership had no care to learn or use it.

    Parent
    I think it's a combination of both (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Arjun on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:40 AM EST
    I'm not so sure that the public has learned, considering our nominee.

    The democratic party has yet to realize that after a unpopular republican president, we don't need to put up a uniter (Carter, McGovern, Obama). We should be going for the kill - the most "polarizing", "divisive" liberal we've got.

    Unfortunately, history is bound to repeat itself.

    Parent

    yup democrats lose and shoot themselves (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:57:39 AM EST
    in the foot type history. i will never forgive the so called dem leaders for what they have done.

    Parent
    The Fantasy vs. The Reality (5.00 / 9) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:04:06 AM EST
    The fantasy was that at this stage Obama was going to be trouncing Hillary and that the floodgates were going to open for the "movement".  They so convinced themselves of the power of the "movement".  Truth be told half of the American voters did not buy the" movement", nor the charm of the alleged change agent.  But, the movement had to be built on many a squirmy blocks.  One was demonizing the Clintons.  Now, how will the movement go back on itself?  Look at that looney MSNBC panel?  

    The unity and change movement was built on disunity and same old politics.  But now lets see, if Axelrod has anything up his sleeve but dirty tricks to really win this one?  If it was such a movement they should not be struggling at this stage.  

    Right on ... who makes it 'his' case that a rival (5.00 / 4) (#155)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM EST
    ... is "divisive". (And my other fave: "ambitious". Cheezit on a cracker.)

    Remember, the big plank of Obama's "Unity" schtick was that Sen Clinton and fmr Pres. Clinton had been at the receiving end of nearly two decades of a deranged witch hunt.

    Obama used that to promote himself forward and THAT was essentially what he had to, er, ah offer as a candidate.

    He wasn't Present at the time. (It's all about a clean paper trail, words untested by action and couldda wouldda shouldda's with this guy.)

    Parent

    Now the "Fantasy" is that he has won (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:33:19 AM EST
    the nomination. He has NOT.

    When I think of how poorly the "declared presumptive" has performed in all the primaries since that fantasy was put out there, I am amazed at how many Clinton supporters are accepting a glass of that "koolaid" they have been claiming they are resistant to.


    Parent

    From my point of (5.00 / 7) (#47)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:04:16 AM EST
    view, the question of whether Obama offers Hillary the VP slot is the litmus test as to whether there is any sincerity whatever in his attempt to reach out to Hillary supporters.

    As I've pointed out above, the question is not whether Hillary would or should accept the VP slot. That is her personal decision to make. She can easily offer up reasons that she would prefer not to, with no harm done to Obama. Edwards has already indicated he would not want to be VP, with nothing negative attaching to Obama.

    It is a question of whether Obama can bring himself to do what he must do in order to unify the party: make a clear, no-strings-attached offer of the VP slot to his former opponent, who is admired by at least as many Democrats as is he.

    If he refuses to do so, how can he blame anyone but himself if her supporters won't come around to him? How is it anyone's responsibility but his own for the failure to unify the party?

    litmus test! i think we are way past that. (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    obama isn't going to offer it. take a look at what his supporters in the black theology movement have said distastful though it is. personally i think they reflect the true obama feelings. why? because that is where he parked himself for 20 years. take a look at his mentors for decades now since his early years. they all fit that profile. his wife also fits that profile. they depise hillary. he won't offer and she would be a fool to accept.

    Parent
    The RFK smear was the litmus test for me (5.00 / 4) (#192)
    by lambert on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:24:43 AM EST
    Let's remember: Straight from the Post to the Obama campaign to their email blast to all over everything.

    That really crossed the line for me.

    As I keep saying, I'm no longer in "Hold my nose and vote for Obama" mode. I'm in "try to keep my breakfast down if I vote for Obama" mode.

    Parent

    It will be up to Obama (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:05:49 AM EST
    to explain why his pick for VP is a better choice than Hillary. Now that will have to be quite a speech.

    Hint to Obama: don't even think of picking any other female.

    obama rule! he doesn't have to explain. (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:15:28 AM EST
    Riiiight...silly of me!!! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:17:26 AM EST
    Unity Shmunity... (5.00 / 10) (#58)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:12:39 AM EST
    ....I am SICK to death of hearing how "we need to unify"

    Translation: HRC supporters need to shut up and worship the chosen one.

    No thanks.

    Wexler can take his fist pounding, screaming demand for unity and shove it up his.....

    I am against a Unity ticket.  I do not want to see Hillary go down on the Loser Ship Fauxbama.

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by zebedee on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:54:08 AM EST
    Unity has never been reciprocal, with any one else at the top of the ticket. He could have got behind the "inevitable" candidate in Dec 07 if unity was the paramount need.

    Actually if unity was so important, should she be endorsing and campaigning for Mccain, so as to unify 75% of the country? Of course not. Unity only matters in the context of what you're unifying for and what's right for the country.

    I would only like to see her in the VP slot if the door was open for the SDs to put her at the top in Denver if that seemed best for chances of victory in November.

    Parent

    I'm in a PUMA mood today (5.00 / 7) (#70)
    by stxabuela on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:17:56 AM EST
    My vote has been taken for granted by the Democratic Party.  I feel like I'm enabling an abusive partner--if I just meekly go along in the interest of party unity, the abuse will only continue.  

    The RBC actually overruled the will of the voters in MI this weekend, and I should go along in the interest of party unity?  I can't accept that decision.  I know that the country is in a precarious position, but I cannot tolerate vote stealing.  Why support either party, when I can vote a 3rd party "none of the above?"  It's really tempting, since I live in a red state.  

    The RBC made a huge miscalculation (5.00 / 7) (#93)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:30:42 AM EST
    this weekend. They have done more to dis-unify this party than they can even imagine. Just stupid.

    Parent
    I'm sorry to be a dunce but what is PUMA? (none / 0) (#127)
    by mogal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:49:42 AM EST
    Acronym for (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:56:04 AM EST
    Party
    Unity
    My
    @ss

    Parent
    A true dem always has an @ss story/ (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by mogal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:06:19 AM EST
    Thanks for a needed laugh today.

    Parent
    PUMA (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:59:16 AM EST
    is group started by Riverdaughter over at the Confluence.  It stands for "Party Unity My A$$". It's a support group- sort of antidote for kool-aid.

    Parent
    I see being a PUMA as a step up (none / 0) (#187)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:21:44 AM EST
    Last week I was merely a Cougar but without the hot cabana boys.

    I'm still driving my wheezing husb (crazy). He won't make the cover of Hot Wheels but he gets me where I want to go.

    Parent

    Hillary does not owe the Democratic Party (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Prabhata on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:21:31 AM EST
    Why would Hillary take the VP? What does she gain other than help Obama? She can do much better in the Senate or even get out of public life.  After 8 years, if Obama were to be the nominee, she'd be 68, wasting 8 years of her life, for what?

    I have (5.00 / 6) (#80)
    by Nadai on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:21:35 AM EST
    pretty much the same question for Obama supporters with regard to Clinton supporters.  This is supposedly the most important election of our lifetimes.  The fate of Western civilization hangs in the balance.  If I don't vote for Obama, I will have the blood of millions on my hands.  Yet, strangely, it's too much to expect Obama's supporters to show even basic courtesy.

    My view on why the Unity Ticket will not happen (5.00 / 5) (#102)
    by feet on earth on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:33:38 AM EST
    is that the majority of the party leadership has decided to purge the Clintons and their long term supporters out of the party long ago.  Or at a minimum, neutralize/marginalize their [political influence and power.

    They wanted Bill to resign and not go through the impeachment spectacle.  Some had moral reasons, some had political reasons, most had a combo of both. The thought was that if had resigned, it would have been  impossible to lose the WH.  We lost the WH and the dislike for the Clintons was cemented into something stronger.  

    They find, groomed and put up their running horse: Barak Obama.  The primary, roolz and counter-roolz  followed, culminating on Saturday with the motions passed by RBC.  The final step toward the final goals is now ensure that Hillary does not get onto the ticket, as per Pelosi's prediction.  
    The long knives of resentments, in my very subjective analysis, have done their job.
    But, WDIK.

     

    I'm not afraid of (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:42:44 AM EST
    a McCain presidency. People just need to work hard on the downticket races and make sure he has a huge majority democratic House and Senate.

    I am, however, very uncertain about what an Obama presidency wants to change. I don't like his close associates.

    To run in 2012 she cannot be on ticket. (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by Saul on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:42:58 AM EST


    Exactly. (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Laertes on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:47:54 AM EST
    Exactly.  She's much better positioned for a run in 2012 if she spends the next four years as a powerful and effective senator, from which post she can function as a critic of the Obama administration.

    And should Obama lose, if Clinton was on the ticket then she'd bear some of the stink of a loser in 2012.  Best that she just stand clear and let Obama win or lose without her.  Either way she's better off.

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by sander60tx on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:04:09 AM EST
    I think that if Clinton does not get the nomination, rather than trying to punish Obama and his minions (which is very tempting), the most practical approach is to do whatever possible to help insure that Clinton's ideals are carried out.  If I was Hillary Clinton, that is what I'd be thinking, anyway.  If her being the VP is the best way to do that, then fine.  If he doesn't offer her the spot, I'm wondering what the "great uniter" will do to get the democrats back together, otherwise. But perhaps HRC would be better able to promote her agenda back in the Senate.  One thing I am fairly sure of is that having McCain as the president is NOT a good way to promote Clinton's agenda (and so I won't vote for him).  But if McCain wins, then the best way to minimize the damage he could do is to elect the most democrats as possible to the Congress.  I personally plan to focus my energy on the Senate race in Texas, as Rick Noriega has an outside chance of beating John Cornyn.  I'm not planning to donate any money or volunteer for Obama.  And I certainly am not sending a penny to the DNC ever again!  

    Unity Schmunity (5.00 / 4) (#173)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:14:53 AM EST
    I hope he doesn't offer it to her because I think she would take it for the sake of the party.  Meanwhile, between now and November a sh*tstorm of new scandals are bound to creep up and she's going to be attached to his hip.

    On the other hand, having to put her on the ticket would infuriate both O and Michelle.  That would bring me great joy.  

    Yes, that's how petty this hideous primary has made me.  I'm not proud.  

    Best interests of the party (none / 0) (#213)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:36:35 AM EST
    are looking not just at the next 4 years but beyond.

    If Obama gets the nom and were to win in November (hardly guaranteed) and tanks as President, she's tainted.  If he gets the nom and loses in November, she's tainted.  If McCain wins the GE, she's our last, best hope of a victory in 2012.

    The only scenario where it's in the party's best interest for her to be VP (and here I mean the non-new-coalition party) is if you think he can win in November and sucessfully negotiate the economy and the war and hold on for 8 years.  This is the least likely possibility.  

    This year we saw what the big gamble did for the party, let's go with the safe bet instead.

    Parent

    Those who are looking at this as just being (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:25:07 AM EST
    about keeping McCain out of the WH are using the same kind of short-term thinking that Obama has used in his efforts to get the nomination, and it is becoming increasingly hard - impossible, even - to participate in helping Obama win at the expense of longer term concerns.

    Many of us see the nomination of Barack Obama as being the nail in the coffin of the Democratic Party; by all indications, he and his cohorts intend to make-over the party in Obama's image, and we are not sure how a party that is weaker on so many of the issues that are important to us is beneficial to us or to the country.  It's bad enough that we have a Congressional contingent that is wholly lacking in spine and fight, but institutionalizing those attributes into a "new" Democratic Party seems less a progressive revolution than a prescription for inertia and ineffectiveness.  We know that the best way to prevent that is for Clinton to be the nominee, but if she is not, the alternative is for Obama to lose.  If he loses the election, he loses the right to take over the party - it's that simple.

    There was a time when I believed that I would be able to support and vote for whichever Democrat was the nominee of the party, but I no longer feel I can make that commitment.  It just makes no sense to me that I should be expected to help elect the person who has worked as hard as he has ("no one has done more for...") to destroy and divide the party so that he can complete the operation.

    No, I am not interested in continuing on with a Grand Experiment that shows all signs of being a disaster of epic proportions.  Losing to John McCain will, in my mind, be a great big red flag that the Obama Way is the Wrong Way, and we can set the Party back on track fighting for the things that Democrats are supposed to stand for.

    The only kind of Unity Obama is interested in is the kind that helps him achieve his goals; your goals, my goals - they are not a priority for him and I refuse to be browbeaten, guilted or belittled even further so that he can ignore me for another 4 years.


    Voting for a movement... (none / 0) (#212)
    by lambert on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:36:29 AM EST
    ... in addition to a President isn't what I signed on for.

    Parent
    What great things (none / 0) (#224)
    by sander60tx on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:53:49 AM EST
    about the "old democratic party" do you think will be lost if Obama takes over?  Will he really bring about change as promised?  If not, what, specifically, do you think he'll do that would be harmful other than weakening what you already admit is fairly weak? (One could argue that Bill Clinton, by being a centrist, also weakened democratic ideals.)  I personally don't think he'll be that effective.  I think many people here are highly pessimistic.  I tend to take the middle ground... I'm not sure if he'll win or lose. If he does win, I don't really expect him to do anything that great, but I'm not convinced that he will be able to do that much harm, either.  If the past predicts the future, and you look at his lack of accomplishment, then I don't think there's so much to fear.

    Parent
    The VP choice usually doesn't get you many votes (4.87 / 8) (#97)
    by Richjo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:31:48 AM EST
    but it can cost you votes if you choose unwisely. No one on the ticket can compensate for Obama's weak traits, but if he chooses Clinton he will have done everything possible to unite the party, if he doesn't he will not have done that.

    If you can pick someone who would be able to help deliver a key state that would be great, but there is little evidence that there is any such Democrat out there. State poilitics is very different from national politics- in many states one party dominates state politics, another dominates the national elections. Here in NC Democrats usually dominate state government, but no Democrat has carried the state in a presidential race since Carter in 1976. The point is just because voters like somebody as their governor does not mean they would want them as President of the United States. Or just because someone is elected Senator from somewhere does not mean that the people of that state would view them as presidential material. Running mates have only helped a ticket significantly when they are able to unify the party, or they have proven themselves to be presidential material in their own right. (Like LBJ in 60, and Bush 1 in 80.) If recent polling is any indication then the only VP choice likely to have a major impact in a key swing state would be McCain picking Rommney in Michigan. Rommney has proven himself an acceptable pick to many Republicans and he has a long family legacy in that state. All these other let's pick so and so from a swing state are pure speculation that ignore the fact that people do not want the same things out of state leaders as they do the President.

    As for the idea of picking a woman other than Clinton, this would be disatrous. The sad fact is that there is no other woman out there who would not have serious questions rasied about her qualifications and readiness to be President. She might be able to prove otherwise during the campaign, but the time for that will be very short. Also, that woman would inevitably be compared to Hillary and at the point that she could not measure up to Hillary in the key areas of toughness and expertise, especially in matters concerning national security, she would simply wind up being percieved as another Geraldine Ferraro which will not help the ticket. Selibus was terrible when she gave the democratic response to the state of the union. She is trying to do Obama's gig, but frankly she can't hold a candle to him when doing so. Obama cannot pick a VP who there are any questions if they are ready to be President. As I said earlier, the VP won't really help you alot, but it can hurt you which Obama doesn't need.

    The other thing to consider is that Clinton is a better campaigner and debater than anyone else the Democrats have to offer. Edwards was terrible in the debate against Cheney, and none of the other candidates have shown the skill on the campaign trail Hillary has.

    Unity will be difficult to ensure if Obama does not offer Hillary the VP slot when she is clearly the most capable candidate out there for the job. These people who claim Hillary could be a drag on the ticket are simply delusional liars. Take a look at the polls- she does at least as good if not better than Obama across the board. It is Obama whose negatives are on the rise and who is about to be attacked liked never before. He needs the party as unified as it can possibly be and there is one way to do that. It he doesn't pick Hillary he will have to accept full blame if he loses in November for his refusal to unite the party.

    An answer about voting for McCain (4.75 / 4) (#85)
    by Prabhata on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:25:17 AM EST
    To say that McCain is 8 more years of Bush and that's why one should not vote for McCain is a lightweight support for voting Obama.  I see McCain as more experienced and a good man who has served his country and would not do anything that would be against the best interests of the US.  I see Obama as an opportunist without any experience who, like Bush, will depend on others to guide him.  No thanks.  I'll take my chances with McCain.

    War hero (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:36:00 AM EST
    versus barely 1-term senator with humungous ego and Nixonian campaign, who likes to call women sweeties.  Hard choice, isn't it?

    Parent
    Sweetie is better than c##t (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:46:53 AM EST
    Given the context (4.20 / 5) (#141)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:54:58 AM EST
    the meaning is pretty similar.

    Parent
    Disagree. (none / 0) (#148)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:59:01 AM EST
    I wasn't seeking (5.00 / 4) (#154)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:02:23 AM EST
    your approval of my opinion.

    Parent
    I wasn't seeking your approval (1.00 / 3) (#176)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:16:28 AM EST
    That would require rational thought.

    Parent
    On who's part? Just asking. (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:18:19 AM EST
    IndiDemGirl, personal insults are not welcome (3.00 / 2) (#214)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:38:15 AM EST
    TheresainSnow2 is a respected commenter and you are violating the rules of the site.

    Parent
    LOL, good one (none / 0) (#197)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:25:31 AM EST
    However, I didn't insult you.  Why is it that the OFB feels a need to insult people?

    Parent
    You did insult me. (5.00 / 2) (#217)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:40:35 AM EST
    I've been coming to this site for several months.  I've followed the rules.  Haven't been warned about chattering, not been suspended.  Rec'd my share of 5s, even contributed to TalkLeft last week.  Yet I've noticed a change in the last week or so.  It seems like a pile on of Obama hate.  Anything Obama does is bad. Anything.  If he offers the VP spot to HRC it is a slap in the face.  If he doesn't, it is a slap in the face.  If he says nice things about HRC, it is terrible, he doesn't mean it, too little too late.  If he doesn't mention HRC, it is terrible.  He's ignoring her.  It is sexist.

    When I see HRC supporters  getting Larry Sinclair autographs, when I read on this site continued mentions of a Michelle tape, when I continue to read people claiming Obama gave her the finger when anyone can see he didn't, when I hear people defending Fox News coverage and ignoring the fact that Fox News WANTS to see division in the Dems, when I see people actually talking up McCain like he's the better choice what other conclusion can I draw?  ODS?

    Parent

    you are very rude and dismissive. (none / 0) (#188)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:22:29 AM EST
    let me return the favor as far as dismissive is concerned. you make no arguments i want to hear. in fact i wouldn't label them arguemnts just argumentative.

    Parent
    McCain thinks we were (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:56 AM EST
    justified going into Iraq. He thinks the surge is working.  That alone proves he WOULD do something that is not in the best interest of the US.  

    More Scalias on the Supreme Court.  That's what McCain is looking for.  Another thing that is not in the best interest of the country.  

    McCain wouldn't even admit that condom use can stop the spread of HIV.  Best interest of the US ? I think not.

    Parent

    Congress will have to do the unthinkable: it's job (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:08:15 AM EST
    Perhaps the ones who are fortunate enough to regain their seats another look at their oaths of office.

    Something to do with upholding the constitution, which includes properly vetting SC justices.

    Parent

    Well did HRC do her job in her vote on (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by IndiDemGirl on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:17:46 AM EST
    Iraq?

    Parent
    We have developed immunity to that.... (5.00 / 3) (#182)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:19:06 AM EST
    ...line of questioning. Next?

    Parent
    Did Obama (5.00 / 3) (#202)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:29:57 AM EST
    do his job by voting for war funding without even a statement in the senate floor in protest of the war?  Did he do his job in providing cover for Democrats who voted for John Roberts for the Supreme Court?

    Parent
    what is the interest of the voter (4.70 / 10) (#43)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:02:25 AM EST
    It may very well be in the interest of many voters who happened to vote for Clinton to indeed vote for McCain. I reject these arguments that blue collar workers or others vote against their interest when they vote for someone you or even we don't like. Only they know their interests. One of their interests is to not have an arrogant, elitist snob who looks down on them be president. That was the feeling a lot of people had with Kerry and a lot of people have with Obama. Yes, that's a repub talking point, but it's not made out of thin air. The disdain that Obama supporters have for blue collar workers, women, and others is clear. And believe it or not, those low information voters notice. Because funny enough, it's not in your interest to put someone in office who doesn't respect you.

    Clinton Should Consider to Run As An Independent (4.00 / 4) (#5)
    by awang on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:40:10 AM EST
    Let's face it: the current democratic leaders show no respect for voters' will. They count our votes when they help them to grab power. They disregard our votes when they are against their agenda.

    The democratic leaders have repeatedly shown no interest in "Doing the Right Thing". The congress has lower public approval rating the BUSH!

    It is no accident!

    If we roll over and vote the way they wanted us to vote, we help them grabbing Washington power. They will no doubt contine to ignore our interests. The country will continue to suffer.

    It's time we launch a campaign for Clinton to run as an independent.


    I don't see it. (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:45:15 AM EST
    I'd love to have a viable third party candidate, but we are nowhere near that now.  Besides, I'd rather see a third party candidate rise up from the grass roots than to splinter from an existing party.

    Parent
    Absolutely not (5.00 / 12) (#20)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:48:42 AM EST
    And there's no way she would consider it.

    Parent
    It's a fantasy scenario for (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:53:38 AM EST
    Repubs to have HRC run as a 3d party candidate.  Say hello to Pres McCain.

    Never will happen.  Never will be considered even for a nanosecond by Hillary.

    She's a True Blue Dem.  

    Till the End of Days.

     

    Parent

    What good does he loyalty to the party do her or us? We are going to have president McCain if Obama is the nominee anyway.

    Parent
    If so many are bent on having (none / 0) (#41)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:01:30 AM EST
    Hillary as the vice president, then I say, McCain should put her on his ticket!!!!! As an independent candidate, the party would surly split. What a great America we would look like. Too many differences in ideology, perhaps, but that certainly would be CHANGE!!!

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:07:20 AM EST
    As much as McCain and HRC respect each other, she is quite terrified of a McCain presidency. You could see it in her eyes when the press asked her whether she would ask her supporters to vote for Obama.

    McCain and HRC are miles apart when it comes to ideology. This will never happen.

    No, only Democrats like Obama supporter John Kerry think being on a ticket with McCain would be A-OK.

    Maybe Obama will offer the VP spot to McCain and Romney will re-activate his campaign and become the Republican nominee!

    Wouldn't THAT be interesting?

    Parent

    why not? i can't see a good argument (none / 0) (#51)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:08:03 AM EST
    as to why she should done one darn thing to help obama. he has shown distain, lack of respect, and a style of campaigning that cannot be forgotten or forgiven. the democratic party knee capped her and has shown the highest distain for her supporters i have ever seen in modern politics. and yet we are supposed to suck it up, bow our heads say amen and see that he is elected. i don't think so.

    Parent
    Because it is not about Obama. (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:19:18 AM EST
    It is about this country and I think she thankfully is honorable and smart enough to understand that at the core.

    I think she believes - and I applaud her for this - that representing her supporters means that she needs to carry on in whatever role she is given to help win back the White House - even if she isn't going to be the one moving in in January.

    Parent

    with all things considered right now neither (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:32:04 AM EST
    is obama. he has dissed and turned off the core democratic base or haven't you noticed. they are doing nothing to save the day and yet we are supposed to say hail to the conqueror and bow our heads. don't look for it.

    Parent
    I don't believe you are supposed to say (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:47:23 AM EST
    "hail to the conqueror" at all.

    I think you should say what I say which is basically, "Okay, you want this buddy?  Fine.  You better get your act together and win."

    My feelings about Kerry went from mild disdain to hatred and utter frustration in the last election cycle - but I voted for him.  What else was I going to do?  Vote for Bush or god forbid Nader?

    I don't really like Obama.  I don't see a glowing figure of hope - I see a man who has learned to game the system - I am hoping that means he will ultimately beat McCain, but there are no guarantees in life - anyhow he may be all I got so I'll go with him and hopefully he will learn to do better.

    Parent

    sorry to say i have zero confidence in (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:51:09 AM EST
    obama. i can't vote for an unknown like him. he has too much baggage and has no made no meaningful acts to change, grow or clarify it.

    Parent
    We still have a chance to get Hillary on the (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:05:16 AM EST
    ticket - TOP spot. Obama hasn't won anything.

    I wouldn't be so severely opposed to him if his campaign had looked honest in the way they got their pledged delegates.

    Parent

    obama and his baggage! (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:08:03 AM EST
    i sorta see him as marley's ghost dragging all those issues and past associations with him. this guy started in with questinable associations when still very young and continued them down through the years. whereas these choices are his right as a private person or even senator if his state voters so choose. but for president of all the people, i have to say no.

    Parent
    About that baggage - (3.00 / 1) (#210)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:35:09 AM EST
    - of course has acted meaningfully to clarify it:

    Re. Rezko: he held a press conference in which he invited journalists to ask any question whatsoever regarding himself and Rezko and promising he would answer them in full - which he did.

    Re. Farrakhan: he denounced and rejected, rejected and denounced.

    Re. Wright: in response to the first time this came up with the "G*d d*mn America" clip, he responded with a long and thoughtful speech clarifying his thoughts on racial relations in America. When Wright subsequently held a press conference that Obama found offensive, he dissociated himself from Wright. When Pfleger held his ridiculous sermon, Obama resigned from the church.

    Much as just about everyone here hates Obama and wants to see and portray him in the worst possible light, he does respond to whatever baggage there may be.

    Please keep an open mind over the next few months.

    Parent

    Calm down, both Hillary and Obama (3.33 / 3) (#56)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:11:38 AM EST
    engaged in <gasp> politics in order to win the election.  Neither is the anti-Christ and either would be an improvement over McCain.

    Parent
    that is simply not true (5.00 / 6) (#65)
    by angie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:15:16 AM EST
    I don't mind political street fights, and I can recognize one when I see it. But what Obama did to Hillary and Bill Clinton is simply beyond the pale. The two camps tactics cannot be compared.

    Parent
    Oh, and don't forget (5.00 / 6) (#68)
    by angie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:16:39 AM EST
    while brandishing Hillary as a racist he continued to say how he "was taking the high road unlike her." Rove has a new master and his name is David Axlerod.

    Parent
    don talk down to me. i am very calm (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:18:00 AM EST
    on my way to making sure i won't vote for obama. the attitude of his supporters like yourself is further proof my decison is accurate. i'll write hillary's name in. deal with that.

    Parent
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KACQuZVAE3s (1.33 / 3) (#142)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:55:03 AM EST
    Fine, throw your vote away.

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 7) (#151)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:59:43 AM EST
    Back in 2000 all the people I know who voted for Nader (who are now not so coincidentally supporting Obama) were told the same thing by me and I was shouted down about their "principles".

    Well, perhaps they were right after all.

    Voting for the Democrats is not a god given right of the Democratic party. It's a privledge. They need to earn each and every one of them -- even if they just think they can just hand them out to their candidate of choice.

    Parent

    let democrats earn our votes the hard (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:13:28 AM EST
    way. let these overpaid, over compensated apparently deaf congress critters earn our votes, do their jobs or get the gilded arses removed from congress by the voters.

    Parent
    Funny but I lot of the Nader voters I know... (5.00 / 6) (#178)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:17:14 AM EST
    ...are now begging me to vote for Obama! This after years of claiming they were not responsible for Bush! I don't listen anymore and I don't care because I have been accused of much worse things in this campaign because of my support for Hillary. I've grown a tough skin. Don't mess with an Appalachian Puerto Rican!

    Parent
    Seriously (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:25:19 AM EST
    All the people I know who voted for Nader over Gore in 2000 for "principle" and their belief that "there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans" are now screaming at me for supporting Clinton and not being a very good Democrat. Of course, none of them have ever done anything more than throw some money at a candidate or sign a petition or two in their entire lifetimes.

    My mom was a Democratic poll watcher when she was pregnant with me. My parents both volunteered for both state and national party campaigns. So have I.

    I didn't know Appalachia had now encompassed Puerto Rico too. I guess we can all be low-information hill billies together! Yee haw!

    Parent

    think about it. that's a very big bus! (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    and all those unity ponies running around in the field nearby. what a sight!

    Parent
    At this point (5.00 / 2) (#205)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:31:49 AM EST
    they're going to need an airbus to accomodate all the people thrown under it.

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:27:53 AM EST
    You go, girl!

    Seriously...the reason Nader voters deserved scorn is because they believed there was not a "dime's worth of difference" between George Bush and Al Gore.

    Do I believe that McCain and Obama are the same? He** no. I just refuse to legitimize Obama's vision and tactics with my vote.

    There's a world of difference there.

    Parent

    Would be tagged the Sore-Loser Party. (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    Third-party candidate would have to run that way from the beginning for them to have any chance at all.

    Parent
    Well, the good of the country is (none / 0) (#52)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:08:07 AM EST
    at stake. John Kerry toyed with the idea of putting McCain on his ticket, Sen. Hagel's name has been bantered about on the Dem ticket for v.p. Why not run as the new America, instead of the new Dem. party. Listen, I've been a party loyalist for many, many years. I'm thinkin of changing to Independent status (never thought I'd ever even consider this)but I am fed up. This is not about the party, the party wants control so badly, they are willing to forego common sense (imo) and "annoint" this man because they're afraid of riots if they don't??? Please!!!

    Parent
    sore loser? those ARE YOUR WORDS! (none / 0) (#55)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:09:00 AM EST
    it is called we aren't wanted, needed and have been told us repeatedly party. it is called the real unity party. those are my words.

    Parent
    My point is, if so many feel that (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:23:55 AM EST
    Obama is going to lose the ge (and I, too, believe it) then does Hillary go quietly back to the Senate and wait and decide what she wants to do, or, does she stay a Dem. run on a combined ticket w/McCain (they have worked together before) and try and heal this country!!! I, for one, will not support Obama, I, for one, will not vote for McCain, as is, but, give me a reason, like a McCain/Clinton ticket. You are not only getting Hillary, you are getting Bill, and McCain who knows something about lots of stuff!! I know it's not going to happen, but interesting to think about.

    Parent
    Calm down. Just saying what the MSM (none / 0) (#77)
    by Joan in VA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:21:02 AM EST
    would do. Not saying it's justified in any way. I just like to deal in reality as much as possible. : )

    Parent
    Is the Reform Party still around? (none / 0) (#174)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:15:01 AM EST
    What if they offered her the nomination. With Bloomberg as VP financing it? Just bloviating.

    Seriously it takes major infrastructure to get a party going. The Reform Party had two election cycles, deep pockets, and public tolerance hoping they could succeed, but still fell apart, infighting like a pack of dogs.

    Parent

    Has Hillary given any indication (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarissa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:42:10 AM EST
    that she is interested in the position?

    It wouldn't do either of them any good if he made a public offer that was refused.

    What are you talking about? (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:43:33 AM EST
    It's not unusual.  JFK asked LBJ as a courtesy.  Of course, LBJ took him up on it.

    Parent
    excuse me, obama is not jfk (none / 0) (#114)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:43:06 AM EST
    and hasn't displayed his ability to turn on a dime and make good decisons.

    Parent
    Oh, I don't think he's anything like (none / 0) (#132)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:29 AM EST
    JFK.  That wasn't what I was saying.

    Parent
    ok, but even more obama makes very (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:04:52 AM EST
    bad decisons in my humble opinion.

    Parent
    Somehow - (none / 0) (#215)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:39:01 AM EST
    - he made enough bad decisions to cobble together a campaign that defeated the Democratic frontrunner who was ahead in name recognition, political connections, fundraising, superdelegates, the polls, you name it.

    A true master of bad decisions, huh?

    Parent

    No, that's exactly wrong (5.00 / 9) (#18)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:46:34 AM EST
    By far the most important thing is that Obama make the clear and unconditional gesture to Hillary that he is offering her the VP slot.

    Hillary can have any number of quite legitimate reasons to turn it down that would not be embarrassing to Obama -- Edwards very publicly refused consideration as VP without anything bad reflecting on Obama.

    But if Obama can't make the gesture, that tells you everything you need to know about his sincerity in wanting to reach out to Hillary supporters: namely, it doesn't exist.

    Parent

    If BHO vs HRC wing antagonisms (none / 0) (#42)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:02:02 AM EST
    are still present 2 months from now when the VP decision gets to crunch time, it might do more harm NOT to at least ask her to be on the ticket.

    Again, O would have to suss out the situation carefully if, like JFK, he really would be doing it solely as a polite gesture to avoid further antagonisms which would happen with a complete shut-out no offer.  And I'm assuming here that he really would prefer not to have her on the ticket.  

    I'm also assuming she really would prefer to maintain her independence that she enjoys as a US senator from a key state.  Once she becomes VP, she's only reading from the script handed her.  

    And she would only do that if the political situation in August absolutely dictated that BHO make the offer and that she accept it.  I don't think things will be so bad in August as to make that a likely scenario.  2.5 months is a fair amount of time for people to cool off.  

    Parent

    There are legitimate reasons (none / 0) (#10)
    by SpinDoctor on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:42:31 AM EST
    There are very legitimate reasons unrelated to hubris to add her and not to add her.  Certainly adding her to the ticket will go a long way to healing the wounds of the primary season and bringing back most of the Clinton supporters.  However, it is unclear how many states Clinton would actually bring to the table that Obama would not have a reasonable chance to secure with another VP choice.  Also, there are several other candidates out there that bring stronger foreign policy experience (Biden) or military experience (Webb) or executive experience (Richardson) that would also enhance an Obama ticket.

    Personally, I would welcome an Obama-Clinton ticket (certainly more than Richardson and Biden).  But I do believe you have to recognize there are legitimate reasons why other candidates can also bring something to the table that makes this decision not that clear cut.

    Only HRC (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Athena on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:48:48 AM EST
    No one else brings 17 million votes won in the primaries.

    That said, I think that Obama is so flawed that I'm hesitant for Hillary to join up with him and cripple her prospects for independent leadership in the future.

    I think Hillary's power is actually growing, and she will only get stronger.

    Parent

    I only for for that ticket IF (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by vicsan on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:57:18 AM EST
    Hillary is at the top of it. He doesn't get my vote just because she's his VP. The man is not worthy to hold that office. He's not QUALIFIED to hold that office. Hillary is.

    Parent
    You undercut the need for a unity ticket then (none / 0) (#49)
    by SpinDoctor on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:07:04 AM EST
    If your position is shared by most Clinton supporters, then you have just made the best argument for not having a unity ticket.

    Parent
    A unity ticket (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:33:27 AM EST
    isn't going to heal the wounds.  If Clinton were younger and had a chance at the presidency later, maybe it would.

    But she's 60 years old and now is her chance.  

    If she takes the VP slot, it ensures she won't ever be president.

    Won't work for me at all.

    Parent

    Her age isn't a solid argument (5.00 / 4) (#139)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:53:44 AM EST
    for anything other than the age discrimination that goes on for women in the workplace in this country.

    She's the CORRECT choice. Obama has lost how many primaries now while he sits with the illusionary "magic number" in view and claiming he is the presumptive nominee. Senator Clinton has proven the country is not comfortable with that conclusion.

    He can't get the needed pledged delegates before the convention. He's not the nominee.

    I refuse to allow the media hype, rhetoric and lame analysis they call their truth to become mine. It isn't true. Obama has won nothing.

    Parent

    Her age (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:04:32 AM EST
    is the reality.

    She will be 68 AND a woman.  The reality is that formula can't win the presidency.

    Parent

    Particularly since Obama is going to (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by tigercourse on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:06:52 AM EST
    run on the idea that McCain, at just 3 years older, is too doddering to be President. It would be pretty hard for Clinton to run after that.

    Parent
    She hasn't lost yet (5.00 / 4) (#170)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:10:16 AM EST
    I'm still expecting to see her on the top of the ticket this year.

    Should that not happen, I'm confident whichever of the two in this year's race won't be re-elected in 2012.

    Obama doesn't have the staying power to do 4 years in the same job, let alone 8.


    Parent

    He has a clear majority of - (1.00 / 1) (#225)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:54:51 AM EST
    - pledged delegates, and it is (not just virtually, but absolutely) impossible for Clinton to change that.

    He also has a clear majority of superdelegates. Superdelegates are not fooled by the dishonest "popular vote" argument based on not counting caucus states and/or pretending there are zero Obama voters in Michigan; the superdelegates continue to trend in Obama's favor.

    What Obama doesn't have yet is such a big lead that Clinton needs over 100% to win - though that should change before the week is out.

    Parent

    the ONLY way Obama will get my vote (none / 0) (#34)
    by iceblinkjm on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    is by putting HRC on the ticket. I don't imagine that happening so I guess I will be staying home.

    If she is VP.... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:13:53 AM EST
    ...then I will stay home and not vote.

    If she is not, I will vote for McCain.

    Unity Now!

    Parent

    UNITY. THE MATH. METRIC. My least (none / 0) (#59)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:12:46 AM EST
    favorite words.  Way, way overused this campaign.  

    How about... (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by OrangeFur on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:13:54 AM EST
    "under the bus"?

    Parent
    I'd also add CHANGE, TRANSFORMATIVE, (none / 0) (#64)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:15:08 AM EST
    HOPE.  

    Parent
    Ready on day one (none / 0) (#167)
    by cannondaddy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:08:44 AM EST
    Bi-post-partisanship (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Fabian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:25:38 AM EST
    is my favorite.  Plus "turn the page" and "move on" - because if you say them with an air of desperation  they become really funny.  

    Naturally, Unity Pony is the win-nah for this particular primary.

    Parent

    I like the word "transcend." (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by madamab on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:35:47 AM EST
    It has just the right icky mixture of condescension and religious hysteria.

    A perfect encapsulation of the Obamanation.

    Parent

    dont forget (none / 0) (#63)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:15:05 AM EST
    momentum

    change

    hope

    kitchen sink

    scorched earth

    Parent

    OBAMA. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:15:29 AM EST
    LOL...for sure (none / 0) (#76)
    by northeast73 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:20:48 AM EST
    inevitable (none / 0) (#74)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:19:23 AM EST
    I agree that many Hillary supporters... (none / 0) (#109)
    by Binx on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:40:01 AM EST
    I agree that many HRC supporters are viscerally angry with the Primary situation and with Obama's candidacy. Still I don't believe that the majority of people that voted for her in the Primaries will choose NOT to vote at all (or vote for McCain) in the General Election.

    I guess what I'm saying is that this "17 million voters" number that is used to express how many voters will turn on Obama and show him how poorly Hillary supporters have been treated and that they just won't stand for it another minute, will turn out to be a vast over estimate.

    As purely anecdotal evidence, all of my friends who were HRC supporters (in MA)--and there were more of them than there were of me -- are planning to vote for Obama should he ultimately receive the Dem. nomination.

    You're right, the majority... (none / 0) (#223)
    by NotThatStupid on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:52:05 AM EST
    . . . of Senator Clinton's supporters will no doubt hold their noses and vote for Senator Obama, should he be the Party's nominee.

    The problem is that a very significant minority of those supporters will not, in my opinion, for reasons I have outlined in other threads. This primary season, I don't think all the Democrats are just going to hug each other and march forward once they have a nominee; there has been too much disrespect shown, too much enmity generated.

    That significant minority, I believe, will turn Senator Obama's narrow loss to McCain into a big loss.

    Personally, my main reason for not voting for Senator Obama is simple. Nothing in his resume has shown me that he has the stomach for difficult decisions and hard work. Nothing.

    And that's an absolute, non-negotiable requirement (in my eyes) for a President and Commander-in-Chief.

    You guys want to unify with that, be my guest.

    Parent

    Why not unity ticket? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Laertes on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
    Obama would be a fool to take Senator Clinton as a running mate.  She and her supporters want him to lose to McCain, both to punish him for stealing the nomination from her and to set her up for a successful run in 2012.

    She's in a much better position to sabotage his campaign from the inside than she would be from the outside.  He needs a running mate who's better off if Obama wins.

    don't worry, obama is sabotaging (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:48:13 AM EST
    his campaign without her help. she shouldn't want to run with him because then he'd have a built in excuse for losing. and his supporters would love to have one more reason to hate hillary. crowd managament at it's most vile!

    Parent
    That's the spirit (5.00 / 6) (#146)
    by Steve M on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:56:49 AM EST
    In the interests of showing that he stands for honesty and a new kind of politics, I think Obama should come out and say "I didn't want that woman on the ticket because I didn't trust her not to sabotage it."  That would be good.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by janarchy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:01:55 AM EST
    he's shown so much good judgement so far, why stop him now?

    Parent
    Funny first comment from you (none / 0) (#133)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:52:32 AM EST
    paranoid much?  LOL

    Parent
    naw, just an accurate assessment (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:59:18 AM EST
    based on what i have observed. next! paranoid? naw! just disgusted, well informed and not your fool!

    Parent
    sorry waldenpond, i thought that meant for me. (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:00:46 AM EST
    i need to go drink coffee and leave. my posts are indeed becoming a little paranoid. lo siento!

    Parent
    That's so funny! (none / 0) (#163)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:07:41 AM EST
    I choked on my coffee.  Go put a shot of something good in your coffee.

    Parent
    glad i was able to lighten the day for you. (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:10:31 AM EST
    seeing your post reminds of some i have seen where i almost got coffee all over my keyboard laughing.

    Parent
    Has too much water gone over the dam.... (none / 0) (#117)
    by Kefa on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:45:50 AM EST
    It's a catch 22.....both camps do not like each other. Even if Obama and Clinton agree to disagree and work with each other, which I doubt (Unity Ticket) there are people who are so turned off who still will not be energized who either won't vote or will defect as a protest vote. That's the reality of the matter.

    How about we dont view McCain as more Bush (none / 0) (#130)
    by Salt on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:51:26 AM EST
    and many of us do not.  In fact the opposite, we view him as someone rejected by the far right political sect of his base and with McCain at least the Country will have divided Governance a desired result for me if Hillary is not first on the ticket. And if their was any question that Democrats could send the People a professional creditable ticket for the White House the Rulz committee confirmed that that implausible event would never happen. Not many amongst us wish for 8 years of fringe control of the White House with and unqualified President and Congress co enable co dependent by each others extreme agenda.  Its time for a new movement and an new Party systems consider me aligned with River daughters PUMA action and how wonderful to see women become politically active and empowered about something other than the Parties favorite women wedgies Privacy.

    NO vp slot for hillary...... (none / 0) (#160)
    by txprog on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:05:18 AM EST
    why would or should hillary be VP? point to polls all you like, 17 million voters blah blah blah....all statistics look great on paper to suport her as VP.  however i think she is far TOO valuable in the senate.  dem sentae is filled with cowards tat dont stand up to the repub machine..even wen they have a 'majority'  assuming obama wins and goes 2 terms hillary does not need the national recognition to run again as if VPs are groomed to run when term is over.
    nobody is suggesting (other than the sour grapes upset that hillary has lost)that obama thinks he does not NEED hillary.  quite the contrary.  any candidate running for ofice needs the support of nationally known democratic leaders especially one with the following that clinton has.  Gore needed it but it was sensitive due to bill's adventures.  kerry certainly needed clintons support and did not get much..at least in terms of agressive active suport from the clintons.  obama will need it more than ever.  if people dont want to vote for obama...that is fine.  vote your oonscience.  do not put party over country.  vote for who you think would be best for the country.  please do not assert that hillary is entitled in anyway to VP slot.  i dont think she would want it anyway.  she need to take over reids postion in senate and assume kennedy's role as the last lion in the senate.  she could do that and would be a much greater asset to the country.

    please excuse typos..im in a hurry

    txprog

    Perhaps Obama simply disagrees. (none / 0) (#169)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:09:26 AM EST
    Perhaps Obama calculates that putting Clinton on the ticket would harm his prospects more than help them. Not only would her negatives harm his chances with Republicans and independents, but after claiming for most of the campaign that Clinton's tactics represented the old politics and that he represented a new brand, putting Clinton on his ticket as VP would seriously undermine that message.

    Obama has certain challenges demographically, that has been clear in this campaign, but it's possible that these can be addressed without necessarily taking the negatives on board that Clinton on the ticket as VP would entail.

    Perhaps he does.... (5.00 / 4) (#186)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:20:26 AM EST
    ...then he should have the guts to say it instead of sending surrogates around to smear her while he acts like it would be a possibility.

    Parent
    He doesn't need to hold press conferences - (none / 0) (#222)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:48:26 AM EST
    - detailing the internal deliberations of his campaign.

    Parent
    He doesn't need to hold press conferences - (none / 0) (#227)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM EST
    - detailing the internal deliberations of his campaign.

    Parent
    I think it's pretty clear (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by sander60tx on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:23:46 AM EST
    by now that Obama cannot claim to be above "old politics."  Is he still saying that?  I don't know.... I can't stand to listen to him for more than about 30 sec.  He also claimed to be a unifying force and so far as I can tell, the party is about as divided as it has ever been.  Just saying we'll be united won't make it so.  Now is our chance to see if Obama can put his words into action.

    Parent
    How is it possible - (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by minordomo on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:47:20 AM EST
    - to unify and compete at the same time? To unify with a competitor, first the competition has to be over.

    Parent
    Obama (1.00 / 1) (#208)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:34:21 AM EST
    has very little chance with Independents and Republicans to begin with.

    His own negatives are growing huge.

    Parent

    Opinion polling (none / 0) (#175)
    by zebedee on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:15:20 AM EST
    I hope that even if she accepts him as the pr. esumptive nominee she keep the door open enough so that some pollsters continue with Mccain v Clinton polling. This will tell us the relative chances for November.

    If it looks like he will win, fine, my main problem with him is that I think he'd lose November. On the other hand, we don't want to go on to a potentially crushing defeat when we have an alternative candidate with a better chance. I think the SDs have the flexibility to make the switch.

    When all is said and done, and (none / 0) (#190)
    by zfran on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:23:28 AM EST
    if he is the nominee, then we'll read about all the reasons everyone should vote for him or the party. I, for one, believe that after waiting 8 years of this lunacy:

       "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain"

    We the People, deserve, more and better. I intend to vote that way!

    My 2 cents (none / 0) (#200)
    by Lupin on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:28:22 AM EST
    Despite what folks here believe, MyDD (a pro-Clinton site) currently projects Obama winning 300 delegates to McCain 238.

    Fairness compels me to add that they project Clinton at 338 vs McCain at 200.

    In any event, Dems win.

    I'll take a bet than in less than two months, Clinton will have not only endorsed Obama, but will appear to be friendly and supportive towards him, and will claim she always respected him, etc.

    This will happen because no one seeks to alienate the future President of the United States on purpose. Clinton is too smart to not know this.


    Hominid Views (5.00 / 1) (#228)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:56:07 AM EST
    Has Obama at a 53.9% chance of beating McCain.

    Fairness compels me to state that it shows Clinton with a 100% chance of beating McCain.

    Hey, I know!  Let's nominate the candidate with the better chance of beating McCain.

    Parent

    My 2 cents worth (none / 0) (#219)
    by D Jessup on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:43:21 AM EST
    "I'll take a bet than in less than two months, Clinton will have not only endorsed Obama, but will appear to be friendly and supportive towards him, and will claim she always respected him, etc."

    Pretty lame statement, Clinton has already said she will support the nominee. She has been gracious to Obama throughout  the campaign. A nominee has not been chosen yet. What is your point?


    Parent

    No Unity Ticket (none / 0) (#206)
    by Spike on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:32:35 AM EST
    As an Obama supporter, I don't think it would be in either Obama's or Clinton's interest for her to join the ticket. The contest has been fierce, with deep resentment on both sides. Obama has won. And he won against the Clinton machine, the most effective Democratic political apparatus since at least the 60s. But just because he beat that machine, does not mean that Obama has conquered it. And it would be foolish for him to assume that he has. Rather, Obama must understand that he got this far by executing his own strategy with discipline. And if he is to win in November -- and I am convinced that he will -- he must stick to his own game plan. While there are no major policy differences between Clinton and Obama, they have very different approaches to campaigning, and I suspect, governance. To attempt to fuse the Obama and Clinton campaign approaches would be unwise. Obama will need the support of many who have voted for Clinton in the primaries. But to prove that he has the leadership to be president, he will have to be clearly in charge of his own campaign.

    Translation... (5.00 / 3) (#216)
    by lambert on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:39:20 AM EST
    There's no place for Clinton supporters in the Democratic party once the Obama movement has taken it over.

    Of course, Donna Brazile and many of the "creative class" [cough] have already told me this, but it's nice to have confirmation.

    Thanks!

    Parent

    VP (none / 0) (#226)
    by KC4847 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 11:55:36 AM EST
    As I said last night, I'm going with whatever the Supers decide.  I'm not so wrapped up in either candidate, both of whom have their faults, that I won't vote Democrat out of ill will or spite.  I think Glenn Greenwald today offers another reason why it's important not to put John McCain in the White House.  And, frankly, I would rather have either candidate choose a governor in the VP slot than a Senator.  Dems need as large a Senate majority as possible.  To me, to risk giving that up would be foolish whoever wins the nomination.

    I think it is (none / 0) (#230)
    by takxdp on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:25:08 PM EST
    more important that the dems have super-majorities in congress/senate - veto override numbers and to take back power from the administrative branch. I don't think an administration would just GIVE power away, no matter which party. In a way if the administration was republican and the congress had real numbers strength and quality members it would be the best situation. I do not see McCain as an automatic Bush repeat at all if we look to the legislative branch. Also a strong dem presence in all the states. It is a stronger base than just top down.

    If the party goes the Brazile way and becomes a neodem party of youth yuppies and AAs then I think the presidency will be lost. But that is mostly for this one election of president. Each state is having vitally important elections too that will not be neodem.

    There are ELECTIONS tomorrow (none / 0) (#233)
    by laurie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:09:16 PM EST
    The media have been doing this for the past few weeks.
    I remember offers of paying back Hillary's debts--offers of the Supreme court--and many offers of the VP. All this to dissuade Hillary's core supporters from going out and voting by lulling people into feeling she's doing fine.

    Hillary NEEDS every vote she can get tomorrow and this VP talk is all SMOKE AND MIRRORS: