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Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:21:57 PM EST
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Now that I've wasted my morning watching the vapid View, I'm going to work. I feel like I need to do penance, like write a slew of motions or go to two jails instead of one.

Your turn.

< Live-Blogging Michelle Obama on the View | Drilling Down Into The Poll Numbers: FL, PA and OH >

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    Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread | 206 comments (206 topical)
    Your penance was watching The View (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:28:20 PM EST
    Go get a massage or something!

    The Insanity Of Brazile & Kerrey And Going (5.00 / 7) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46:05 PM EST
    out of the box suggesting Hagel as a viable VP option. ht/t Ellie

    Democratic strategist Donna Brazile told Salon. "This is an opportunity to go outside the traditional walls of looking for some kind of geographic or political balance [in a running mate]. The country's in such a mood now, it's in a pickle almost," she added, referring to the possible appeal of the national unity ticket.

    Hagel would also bring some strong credentials, says former Sen. Bob Kerrey, a Democrat and fellow Nebraskan, who ran for president himself in 1992. "He's fun to hang out with, he's got terrific knowledge of foreign policy and national security, and he enjoys the work," Kerrey said. Salon

    Hagel is an extremely CONSERVATIVE Republican. Progressive Punch gives him a score of 9.46%. In fact, he is more conservative than McCain who has a score of 13.89. Health care - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 9.89. Corporate subsidies - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 50. Environment -  Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 27.60  Education, Humanities, & the Arts - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 5. Fair Taxation - Hagel has a score of 0, McCain has a score of 17.46.

    Hagel would put choice and every other Democratic value just a heart beat away from being on the line. It would give his positions validity within the Democratic Party. It would also set Hagel up as the future presidential choice in 8 years.

    I sincerely hope this is just spin and Obama's campaign realizes how stupid this would be. I am currently not inclined (subject to change) to vote for Obama but Hagel as VP would be a deal breaker for me and might actually get me to vote for McCain for the reasons stated above. I want a REAL Democratic Party not a Unity08 Party.

    I think the fact that she (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:47:03 PM EST
    is saying this is significant.

    [ Parent ]
    I do too, but not because he's going to pick Hagel (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54:13 PM EST
    I have no admiration for Brazile whatsoever.  What she says has no credibility in terms of facts.  But how she talks about a subject is a decent indicator of how the campaign's thinking is going.

    The fact that she's talking about 'out of the box' stuff to me signals that that's how the campaign is thinking.  It also serves as yet another 'Never Hillary!' warning.   (So wearingly efficient).

    [ Parent ]

    yes exactly (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:02:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If it is all for show (4.66 / 3) (#52)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:48 PM EST
    I just wish that when they talk about going out of the box, they would talk about someone like Kucinich instead of Hagel.  Why does a 'bold move' always have to be to the right?

    [ Parent ]
    I don't understand this line of reasoning (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:56:49 PM EST
    either.  Aside from the problems you note, where does this leave the Dems at the end of an Obama presidency assuming he wins?  They would not be in a position of having a Democratic vice president to run against the Republican candidate.  It would leave the party in a worse position instead of a better one down the road.  

    [ Parent ]
    It just seems extremely unlikely that they (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by tigercourse on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:57:11 PM EST
    would pick a conservative Republican as a VP. Pro Choice women would be enraged. Hagel as Sec Defense is bad enough, as VP he would be a disaster.

    [ Parent ]
    I wonder how well Obama would have (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:57:26 PM EST
    fared in the primary season had he indicated that while he was running as a Democrat, he was really considering bringing the whole Unity 08 thing to it.

    It's way to Lieberman-esque for my taste.

    Honestly, it makes me want to run for the tin-foil hat when I start thinking things like, "Maybe this is why they are looking to nominate by acclamation and dispense with a ballot, because they know that if there's a ballot and Obama announces Hagel - or some other Republican - as his VP choice, Obama could easily lose as hundreds of Democrats bolt for Clinton."

    Oy.

    [ Parent ]

    Yesterday I read somewhere the (4.50 / 2) (#37)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:02:59 PM EST
    pre-paid hotel rooms in Denver intended for Clinton supporters are being cancelled.

    [ Parent ]
    youre kidding (4.50 / 2) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:07:09 PM EST
    every day its another reason isnt it?

    [ Parent ]
    wait, what do you mean (none / 0) (#47)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    Who's canceling?  The Clinton supporters, or the DNC is canceling rooms for them?

    [ Parent ]
    Found it. LA TImes political blogger. (4.50 / 2) (#60)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:17:11 PM EST
    Hotel rooms were for Clinton campaign workers.  Warning, this blogger is annoying:

    LATIMES blog

    [ Parent ]

    didnt care for the tone (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:23:35 PM EST
    and what is this supposed to mean?

    "Too bad the rodeo's not in town"


    [ Parent ]

    Very obnoxious (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:26:28 PM EST
    but it does make sense to cancel those rooms, unfortunately.

    From the context I think he just means it would be easier to find takers for those rooms if the rosdeo was also in town that week. But I don't think filling the rooms will be a problem.

    [ Parent ]

    Now Updated with... (none / 0) (#117)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:15:53 PM EST
    (UPDATE: A Clinton campaign spokesman, Jin Chon, now says this report is incorrect and the rooms are not available. So don't bother calling for any.)

    Maybe the LA Times blogger should look to someone other than TMZ for a source.  Or even better, try making a call or two to check out the TMZ story before posting on the story.  

    [ Parent ]

    Is this for the FL Clinton Dems (none / 0) (#56)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:59 PM EST
    they are replacing with Obama Dems?

    [ Parent ]
    He did (none / 0) (#81)
    by dianem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:35:22 PM EST
    Obama has never pretended to be running as a hard core progressive. His supporter's and the right wing have been touting how liberal he is, but he has said all along that he was trying to "reach out" to Republicans and right leaning moderates. Remember "Democrat for a Day"? I think that his campaign toned down the rhetoric when they decided to run as left of Clinton, but what did people think "Unity" meant? It always meant that he was going to try to accommodate the right wing - to unify the nation.

    [ Parent ]
    This is the one thing ... (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:59:13 PM EST
    that would make me not vote for Obama.

    But I don't think it's going to happen.  I think it's just to provide cover for the weak, red state Dem they pick.

    They hope everyone will just be so relieved it isn't Hagel.

    [ Parent ]

    If he thinks scaring me with Hagel (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:00 PM EST
    will make me like Sebelius more, well...not so much.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't say it was a .... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:37:12 PM EST
    good strategy.

    ;)

    [ Parent ]

    Hagel talked a good game, like he (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:44:52 PM EST
    was anti war, yada yada, but when the votes were counted, he voted straight up with GWB for the Iraq war.

    Would Caroline Kennedy agree with this? A Republican? I doubt Hagel has a chance, I don't think he would accept.

    [ Parent ]

    I wouldn't be relieved if they pick a weak (none / 0) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    red state Dem as VP. IMO the best VP choice for Obama would be Clark. Not the best campaigner in the world but when he talks about Iraq and foreign policy in print and on TV, he, unlike Obama,  knows the subject matter backwards and forwards. Gives details without making it boring and makes real sense.

    [ Parent ]
    Please, nominate Hagel! (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:35 PM EST
    As a person who could care less if the Dem wins this time (and I literally barely ate or slept during Bush v. Gore), I think it would be an interesting exercise to see what an Obama/Hagel ticket would do to voter behavior.  

    In addition, it will be fun to watch the O-list bloggers suddenly taut the Unity08 schtick.  Now that I don't watch John Stewart or Stephen Colbert anymore, certain blogs are my comedy source.  I will definitely laugh at the "scary coathanger" meme.


    [ Parent ]

    O-list bloggers . . . (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:18:49 PM EST
    a new political term could be coined by their contortions, pretzelification.

    [ Parent ]
    Way Back When I Use To Frequent The (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:32:20 PM EST
    Big Orange, quite a few people there thought Hagel as VP would be a great idea. Very enthusiastic about it in fact. They of course were the same people who stand Clinton because of her triangulating ways.

    [ Parent ]
    Why Do I Always Leave Word Out? Arrrrr (none / 0) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:42:38 PM EST
    Should read:

    They of course were the same people who couldn't stand Clinton because of her triangulating ways.


    [ Parent ]

    The sound you are hearing... (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    is my head banging on my desk...

    [ Parent ]
    It would be stepping right into (4.50 / 2) (#59)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:16:41 PM EST
    the MSM High Broderism trap, where partisanship is a cardinal sin, but only Dems have the responsibility for reaching out to the other side.

    It is exactly the kind of thing Obama has favored all along, so it would not surprise me in the least.

    [ Parent ]

    Republican VP (none / 0) (#38)
    by laurie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:03:31 PM EST
    I also heard talk of Colin Powell as VP.
    But maybe he'll pick a Latino-I just don't know.

    [ Parent ]
    Powell Is Making Noise That He Might (none / 0) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    vote for Obama so I don't take talk of him as VP seriously.

    [ Parent ]
    good choice if it has to be a military man (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:49:16 PM EST
    and it has to be to balance Obama's lack of military experience.

    the truth is that GWB has brought the bar down so low, we don't need to raise it much for the next pres. including McSame.

    [ Parent ]

    Confused About Your Comment (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM EST
    We were discussing Powell as VP for McCain and not Obama.

    Also, have to admit I'm confused why any Democrat would think that Powell would be a good choice for Obama. Powell more than any person alive had the ability to stop the insanity of the invasion of Iraq. He knew full well what the consequences of that invasion would be but chose to put his loyalty to Bush over the good of the country. Had he chosen to resign in protest, Bush would have found it almost impossible to sell the invasion here in the U.S. or abroad. Instead, Powell went to the U.N. and sold a bunch of lies in support of Bush's policy. For many people that was the deciding factor to get on board with Bush's plan.

    Hillary is demonized for her vote for the AUMF but if Powell even hints that he may vote for Obama, he is instantly rehabilitated and is deemed a great choice for VP on the Democratic ticket. Sorry can't agree with this type of logic in any way, shape or form.  

    [ Parent ]

    After selling out (none / 0) (#172)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    the country in the UN speech when he knew it was a lie, I think Powell's political career is over. I can't imagine the anti war candidate teaming with one of the liars that started it in the first place.

    [ Parent ]
    I doubt Hagel would be the VP.. (none / 0) (#107)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:04:54 PM EST
    The Obama team should know that it would alienate a whole lot of Dems, and Hagel wasn't on any of the short-lists.

    Donna Brazile, like always, doesn't know what she is talking about and probably buys into the line that the worst problem facing the nation is "partisan bickering."

    [ Parent ]

    A Obama/Hagel Ticket Has Been (none / 0) (#124)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:21:32 PM EST
    on every state poll I've seen that polls the viably of VP candidates. He has been discussed as a possible Obama VP pick on the Obama A-list blogs for months and this idea gets support on them.

    [ Parent ]
    Brazile, still cooking I see... (none / 0) (#147)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:47:06 PM EST
    So Donna Brazile thinks:

    The country's in such a mood now, it's in a pickle almost..."

    Given that Brazile played such a huge role in terms of creating the "pickle", surely god, she should be stifled as to how we get out of the "pickle".

    Did her book "Cooking with Grease" have any recipes for getting out of pickles?

    [ Parent ]

    Oil Drilling (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by mmc9431 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:15:31 PM EST
    My faith in my fellow American's continues to decline. I just read a poll done in response to Bush's call for offshore drilling. Suddenly over 70% think it's a great idea and believe it will lower gas prices. Maybe that's the same 70% that thought the Iraq war was a great idea too. Are we really that naive? No wonder we end up with the leaders we do!

    I'm not (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:34 PM EST
    suprised. That's why all the "this is a Dem year" and "there's absolutely no way McCain can win" falls on my deaf ears. I guess I'm getting very cynical in my old age. Seen too much I guess.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm tired of caring (4.33 / 3) (#70)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:27:31 PM EST
    about the youth who don't care about the older folks.

    So, if the Republicans want to spoil the environement for the youth who don't care about healthcare and social security, well, bully for them!  I won't live long enough for it to severely affect me.  As long as I get cheaper gas, I'm a happy lady.

    [ Parent ]

    ha (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:03:17 PM EST
    marry me?  

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (none / 0) (#113)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:10:16 PM EST
    Sorry, I'm taken ;-).

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#65)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:21:44 PM EST
    I got an email this morning with a 1 year old video attached explaining the oil situation. I never know for sure how to take these things, but a documentary on the Federal Reserve, World Bank and who runs the world gives the same basic scenario.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    Makes it almost seem as if BushCo had a hand in getting the oil prices so high betting that Americans would finally start to be OK with drilling in areas that were off limits.

    [ Parent ]
    Worried about the convention (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    For some time, I've been worried about the convention.

    I think conventions are important.  I believe the 1992 ("Better in the original German.") Republican convention was instrumental in Bush's loss.  The 2004 (let's not pick on Bush), Dem convention really hurt Kerry.

    If the '08 convention plays out like some Club Obama revival meeting, we could be in big trouble.  If it's the proggy blogs vision of nirvana, we're dead.

    Hopefully, wiser heads will prevail and we won't have this.  But I'm worried they won't. And we'll be treated to an all elitism, all the time horror show.

    Coolest downticket thing this year (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:34:56 PM EST
    California voters are gonna vote on giving $33B between now and 2020 towards building a high-speed bullet train system connecting Anaheim, SF, LA, San Diego, and Sacremento this year. I've been screaming about putting in a high speed rail system for over two years now, since I went to Japan and rode the Shinkansen. I had no idea one was actually maybe gonna get in place. This greatly reduces the carbon footprint, and saves on gas consumption as well, not to mention time. These things are FUN to ride as well. The ones in Spain and Japan at least are pretty classy too for mass transit. People regularly hold business meetings on these things. I'm excited about this--I think it's a great creative solution to the energy crisis. Also helps to curb sloppy urban sprawl.

    Love the Shin (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:40:34 PM EST
    I loved just standing on the platform and feeling it whoosh by.

    Seems like it would be perfect for the California I-5 corridor.  Hope it goes through.

    [ Parent ]

    Not to have to do I-5 (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:47:38 PM EST
    would be fantastic! I would easily take the rail over driving or flying.

    [ Parent ]
    This is the kind... (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:09:11 PM EST
    ...of technology we should have been investing in over the past 25 years.  There's no reason (except for Big Oil/US Automakers) that we shouldn't have a comparable high-speed rail system to what they do in Europe and Japan.

    Air travel is going to be cost prohibitive to all but the very wealthy in the very near future.  And, I would much rather hop a train than set foot in an airport.

    [ Parent ]

    Yay! (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:28:47 PM EST
    I wish we had done this 10 years ago. I've often wished I could take the train rather than car or plane up into Oregon. But the current trains take over 24 hours to get where I'm going! This will only go half way up the state to Sacramento but it will be very welcome. It's got my vote, even though it may be too late to help me personally by the time its done in 10 years.

     Thanks for the good news.

    [ Parent ]

    Great idea, but how much you wanna bet (none / 0) (#156)
    by Newt on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:54:53 PM EST
    it costs two to three times the $33B they're asking for.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually they're only asking for $10B from (none / 0) (#162)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:03:53 PM EST
    the California public. Even at two to three times that it still beats the cost of relying on freeway upgrades and maintenance as the only solution.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought you lived in NC (none / 0) (#185)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:51:33 PM EST
    or, are you just attending school there? :)

    [ Parent ]
    I'm from AL (none / 0) (#187)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:54:39 PM EST
    Actually, and go to school in NC. I have nothing to do with California. :P

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary is back in the Senate and is calling for (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    investigations into Halliburton. At least someone in the party is showing real leadership.

    http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/06/clinton_back_in_the_senate_sad.html

    I predict this will not be the last time (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:00:56 PM EST
    she will lead on healthcare Im betting.


    [ Parent ]
    I'm hoping she made a deal with O (none / 0) (#108)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:05:00 PM EST
    when she had that hour meeting 3 weeks ago,
    that he would adopt her health care plan in exchange for her endosersement.

    I'm glad she's back in the senate, after having convinced 18 mil people to vote for her. She definitely now has a pulse on the nation's ills.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama isn't going to adopt her health care plan.. (none / 0) (#118)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:15:54 PM EST
    If he made a deal with him, the best it could have been would be to put her as Senate majority leader.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't see how he could after (none / 0) (#122)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:20:32 PM EST
    the primaries (healthcare). Or maybe she drafts it after he's in and he signs it in the name of Unity and reaching out to the far left?! lol!~

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is not afraid to say it. (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by halstoon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:33:53 PM EST
    I love that Obama will say what needs to be said. I know his religiosity bothers some, and others see him as sounding too Republican, but I think it's great that Obama focuses on personal responsibility, another GOP keyword that won't win any fans here.

    At the end of the day, though, Obama's overriding focus is community service and individual effort. If we all try to do the right thing and help others who struggle more than we do, we will see immense progress in the lives of the poor and the forgotten.

    I think that is a great message, one worthy of supporting in November.

    No one has done more (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by tree on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:40:50 PM EST
    to promote personal responsibility than Barack "This is not the __ (fill-in-the-blank) I knew" Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Yawn ... (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:44:39 PM EST
    as one Youtube commenter said in the link you posted:

    The real problem is the need for LIVING WAGE JOBS! Because without a LIVING WAGE JOB one cannot keep a family intact. Also, the foundations of stable communities are LIVING WAGE JOBS!

    Wish Obama has said something like that.  Rather than the faux Republican nonsense he spouted in that speech.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama does support a living wage. (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by halstoon on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:05:33 PM EST
    It doesn't matter how much money you make, though, if you're priorities are not in line. If we focused on getting our kids through school, making sure they could read, and keeping them out of jail, they would not have to worry about a minimum wage job.

    To complain about a living wage on Father's Day would have missed the moment. If we step up to our responsibilities as parents, a lot of the poverty issues can be avoided without relying on Congress to take care of us. A conservative viewpoint, I know, but one worth adopting imo.

    [ Parent ]

    Hmmm ... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    To complain about a living wage on Father's Day would have missed the moment.

    And blaming black men for the ills of society on Father's Day?  Totally awesome!

    Get a clue.

    [ Parent ]

    I dont think obamas a very good role model (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:54:17 PM EST
    on this issue.  His sense of responsibility is based on strict political self-interest.

    He will ask others to hold themselves responsible for the divisiveness we see in the party and in politics in general but the tone of the primary itself crushed his credibility now on that issue.  See above thread on "deep disappointment".

    [ Parent ]

    Has anyone seen this? (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by SarahinCA on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:00:00 PM EST
    Just wanted to get opinions and would love to see a TL post on this.

    Muslims barred from picture at Obama event

    tree, I agree with you. (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:12:54 PM EST
    But what exactly that means is a puzzle LeResche and other pain researchers across the country are trying to work through. The fact is, no one really knows for sure if women and men perceive pain differently, let alone how they react to it.

    "There are [so many] overlays of societal and cultural norms and other factors that go into the reporting of pain that it may not have a biological basis at all," says Robert Gear, an assistant professor of oral and maxillofacial surgery at the University of California, in San Francisco. "It certainly could have a biological basis, but there is no way to test it so far."

    I think there are bunch of reasons all the studies show that women do not tolerate pain as well as men, and as most of the studies suggest, those reasons include biological, societal, perception-al, whatever, reasons/differences.

    Obama expresses "deep disappointment" (4.75 / 4) (#2)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:27:16 PM EST
    in Sen. McCain's failure to speak out against verbal attacks on Michelle Obama: Obama

    I am admittedly rather bitter about this.

    I have to agree with the McCain campaign response (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:33:52 PM EST
    on that one.  They said Obama has failed to live up to the standards he sets for others.

    If he had, there would be no doubt of a unified Dem party and landslide this fall.

    [ Parent ]

    Ouch. Point McCain camp. (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:30:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You beat me to it. I almost lost my (5.00 / 6) (#9)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:35:42 PM EST
    breakfast when I read the headline. Is he running for the Pontificator-in-Chief?

    I would never consider making Cindy McCain a campaign issue, and if I saw people doing that - I would speak out against it. And the fact that I haven't seen that from John McCain I think is a deep disappointment."

    Oh but Bill and Chelsea are fair game? And Cindy McCain has been made an issue and all I heard from Obama was silence.

    [ Parent ]

    God, the hypocrisy! (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by angie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:46:51 PM EST
    I can't believe a lighting bolt didn't come down from the sky and smite as he said that.
    I would never consider making Cindy McCain a campaign issue, and if I saw people doing that - I would speak out against it. And the fact that I haven't seen that from John McCain I think is a deep disappointment."

    Maybe the wiggle room, fingers crossed behind his back that he is giving himself is the word "saw" -- you know, like with Wright -- if Obama doesn't actually see it happen, then he doesn't have to say or do anything about it.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes - parsing and wiggle room (4.66 / 3) (#45)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    are what he is relying on to counter those of us who say he should have come out against the sexist attacks on Hillary.  I'm waiting for someone to explain that he always only meant spouses and young children should be off limits.

    Whenever I'm ready to cut him some slack and get more solidly behind him, he makes it very difficult.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder why it is that Obama doesn't (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:49:57 PM EST
    realize that all those nice things he says about Michelle in defending her from attacks are things the McCain and Clinton families also believe to be true of Cindy and Hillary - unless he's saying that of the three only Michelle has done all the right things and is therefore, exempt from any and all criticism.

    What may really be sticking in Obama's craw is that McCain did come out and defend Hillary from some of the nastier things that were said, but I guess Obama didn't want to look too whiney.

    [ Parent ]

    They have barely touched michelle....they (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54:48 PM EST
    are saving the good stuff for the most opportune time.  Saying they better lay off her will go thru one ear and right out the other.  Maybe obama could learn a lesson by practicing what he preaches!

    [ Parent ]
    Barack is a man who lives by (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    words, not actions. He is above the rules of society in how he behaves.

    [ Parent ]
    Amen sister friend.... (4.25 / 4) (#55)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:51 PM EST
    obama's mantra:  do as I say, not as I do

    [ Parent ]
    But McCain's first wife, that's a (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    totally different story.

    [ Parent ]
    "a deep disappointment" (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:31:21 PM EST
    LOL!~ now where have I heard this frame before . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Where was obama in standing up for (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:50:40 PM EST
    Hillary?  How soon we forget!

    [ Parent ]
    Crickets (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:22 PM EST
    Obama's supporters like Rep. Cohen joined in on the sexist "Glenn Close" attacks and even then Obama remained silent.

    It took McCain bringing up the subject before any one in Dem leadership even said word one about what was going on.  Color me unimpressed.

    [ Parent ]

    And, the more distinctive comparison (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:10:19 PM EST
    is in how he, himself, participated in the thrashing of his opponent's spouse. Obama stood on stage with McPeak when McP compared Bill to McCarthy because he didn't include Obama in the scenario of Hillary v. McCain.

    He, personally, criticized Bill in a number of stump speeches claiming he couldn't tell which Clinton he was running against. Nothing would please him more than to have a spouse with the same campaigning power of Bill Clinton.


    [ Parent ]

    Chivalrous Obama calls on rival to stop the slams (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:04:53 PM EST
    ... on Sposa Obama, who is, after all, the presumptive First Lady.

    ahhhh HAHAHAHAHAHA :: eye wipe ::

    Gotta wonder if any kitchen sinks and china were periodically thrown.

    Phew. And they said the man was without humor.

    [ Parent ]

    But, Cindy remains fair game (4.50 / 2) (#53)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:55 PM EST
    Unfortunately, her favorite cookie recipes that have an online presence as belonging to someone else is big news.


    [ Parent ]
    Next: Obama expresses "disappointment" (5.00 / 6) (#44)
    by Joelarama on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:07 PM EST
    over McCain's connection to anti-gay "ex-gay" gospel singer.

    [ Parent ]
    Turnabout is fair play (none / 0) (#133)
    by SoCalLiberal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:29:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    we should consider (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:08:59 PM EST
    obama AGREED with all the attacks on Clinton.

    Who says he's being a hypocrite here?

    [ Parent ]

    This is exactly the kind of thing (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:12:33 PM EST
    Digby spoke about.  You can't verbally attack one candidate's spouse, then expect the outrage about YOUR spouse to be heard.

    [ Parent ]
    Ugh (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:14:26 PM EST
    more of the "disappointment" whine. And when he couldn't even stand up against the sexist comments from his own party why should he expect McCain to do that? Seriously?

    [ Parent ]
    gee, it didn't bother him when they were (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by thereyougo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:53:01 PM EST
    speaking badly of Hillary. I think she showed much class when he was being attacked on the REV WRIGHT thing,by saying we should move on. But did anyone hear him defend her when they were bringing up the Serbia silliness or the Kos kidz were calling her every name in the book?

    and Hillary is going to fundraise for him? Man my skin isn't thick enough for politics

    [ Parent ]

    Obama Has Spent Most Of This (none / 0) (#92)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:46:33 PM EST
    campaign season "SAD" or "Disappointed."  This type of response doesn't work for me but evidently it does with a lot of other people.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (4.00 / 1) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:24:16 PM EST
    go to two jails instead of one

    I could reasonably see prison time for the producers of the show, but for regular viewers?  A bit harsh coming from the defense bar!

    I can contemplate watching the vapid (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:28:07 PM EST
    View but not telling the entire world via my blog that I did so.

    [ Parent ]
    When I was a stay-at-home mom (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:32:42 PM EST
    I used to watch Barbara Howard's show.  One-year olds don't engage in adult conversation.  

    [ Parent ]
    The View is apparently great for new moms who miss (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:11:07 PM EST
    ... sitting around with a bunch of women all talking simultaneously. My brainiac sister said it saved her sanity when she was on the insane breast-feeding schedule. (Schedule was nutty, not the boob.)

    I have sisters so I've developed the mechanism of seeing an opening and jumping the he!l in.

    [ Parent ]

    only ever watched one (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:58:40 PM EST
    daytime female talk show.  anyone from the Houston area and old enough to know who Warner Roberts is?
    I LOVE Warner Roberts.  she was(is? this was in the 70s) married to this rich guy who wanted to get her out of the house so he bought her a TV show.
    every episode was a classic whether it was the very famous one where she and Ertha Kitt did a silence standoff or the one when she had Richard Adams, the author of Watership Down, on to promote the book and had the entire set decorated in ships.
    I miss Warner Roberts.


    [ Parent ]
    Think of it this way (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:30:55 PM EST
    People who watch The View are already serving time. . .

    [ Parent ]
    Non Elitists Watch (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:37:43 PM EST
    How many watch the show? More than are serving time. According to Prison Planet 30 million watch the show.

    [ Parent ]
    heh (none / 0) (#12)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:38:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Here's how I am planning to deal w/ the DNC (4.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:04:22 PM EST
    Many of you have quit the Democratic Party. I can't. We only have 2 viable parties (a parlimentary system would make room for more) so I have to work with the ones that have the power. Baltimore is 85-90% Dem so if you don't vote in the primaries you didn't vote.
    I am so mad at the engineered primary and the malign embrace of sexism. So while I won't change my registration, the DNC will get more nothing from me. The last few election cycles my volunteer hours and money went only for specific candidates anyway.

    So I will focus on local races and issues and candidates and legislators.
    And I will hold feet to fire on sexism and push for local dems to address the issues.
    Luckily locally we have some great stuff happening.

    I agree.. I was going to quit but (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:48:13 PM EST
    then I stopped and thought about it. What is going to get more attention at the DNC, an email or angry letter from a registered Democrat or the same from an Independent who used to be a registered Democrat? I figured that staying as a registered Democrat was the only chance I had of being able to get my party back to where it should be. I don't want the DNC to be just an arm of the Chicago Combine, which it is in the process of becoming. I don't want Barack Obama deciding who can be financed and who can't. The Democratic Party is for Democrats, not just the Obama fan base.

    I will not go gently into that good night. I will stay and fight for my Party. It's been my Party for longer than Barack Obama has been alive, and I am not giving it up without a fight. And when it comes to fights, I am not in the habit of losing. I just keep going until I win.

    [ Parent ]

    The latter (none / 0) (#164)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:04:40 PM EST
    will be the most effective.

    If there are mass defections from the Democrats to Independents, it changes the narrative.  It also changes the poll ratios used to do polling.

    You can always go back to the party later, when/if it becomes the Democratic Party again.

    [ Parent ]

    I intend to vote for the downticket, (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by FlaDemFem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 03:28:16 PM EST
    but write in Hillary for President. Perhaps when the data comes to the attention of the DNC, ie. how many voters voted the downticket Dems but not Obama, it may give them a clue about what he, and they, are doing to the Party. That is the sort of data that politicos deem important. It will also tell them how many Democrats are displeased with their actions and decline to support them. I know I can vote for the downticket Dems as an Independent, but I want to be a thorn in the side of the Democratic Party until they come to their senses. Hard to do that from the outside. So, those that leave the Party are sending a message, and those of us who stay and don't vote the top slot are also sending a message. With so many messages coming at them, the DNC is bound to notice at least one of them.

    [ Parent ]
    For example (none / 0) (#125)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    Donna Edwards was elected in MD-04 yesterday to finish Al Wynn's term. She will be the first black woman Congressperson from Maryland. Yea!!!!!

    In other and sadder news, Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon's home was raided today. If she needs to resign to fight corruption charges, she would be replaced by City Council President Stephanie Rawlings-Blake - who is young, connected, smart, and more progressive. She was not my preference for that job but is far better than Dixon who was not my preference for the Mayors job.
    Yup - every incumbent running in Baltimore won last year. Another thing to work on......

    [ Parent ]

    Heheh! (none / 0) (#6)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:32:01 PM EST
    I guess we won't be seeing Jeralyn on the View...ever.

    But don't you think it would be fun to pull Barbara's leg?

    Well, Kathy Griffin is allegedly banned (none / 0) (#10)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:35:44 PM EST
    so Jeralyn can join the list.

    [ Parent ]
    Why do you know this? (none / 0) (#32)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:59:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Griffin talks about it in her act. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by tigercourse on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    People Power.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:43:16 PM EST
    in action in Seattle.  Link

    Hopefully what is right will trump greed for a change.  The NBA could certainly use some good pr for a change, here is their chance...but it looks like they will blow it, again.

    Save the Sonics!

    Seattle got more good news today (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:17:32 PM EST
    The hard work of Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell has succeeded in the first step of getting the Air Force tanker contract bidding reopened.

    [ Parent ]
    ever hear a rabbit scream? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:43:52 PM EST
    its a sound you will never ever forget.  this morning I got to watch my dog brutally murder pathetic little bunny rabbit.
    its shrieks are still ringing in my ears.
    Speaking of Watership Down. (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:30:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    poor thing (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:45:42 PM EST
    I think it died of fright.  there was no blood and didnt seem to be any broken bones.
    the dog just chased it around and around the yard with me screaming at him while trying to get my pants on since I had just gotten out of bed, caught it and ran around with me chasing him with it in his mouth.
    it was a nightmare.
    my neighbor thought it was hilarious.


    [ Parent ]
    Very possible it was fright :( (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:50:45 PM EST
    I'm so thankful my dog play bows to small critters, she would be too hard to catch is she was prey driven. It can be embarrassing in the parks though, lol!~

    [ Parent ]
    Danger Kitty has herded/captured 3 mice (none / 0) (#157)
    by kredwyn on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:58:49 PM EST
    She chases them about the house. I hear the mouse squeaks and head off to the rescue. And grab the colander and some catalog or other.

    Between the two of us we get the mouse under the colander and out the door.

    When it's all over Danger Kitty gets treats.

    She has no interest in the kill...just the play.

    [ Parent ]

    So sorry about that (none / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:33:57 PM EST
    Must have been horrible.

    The doggies are so proud, they can't figure out why we are horrified. A few months ago mine caught a squirrel that fell out of a tree and landed literally on top of him. Talk about starting at third base and thinking you hit a home run.

    [ Parent ]

    I would like to borrow your dog. (none / 0) (#98)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:51:26 PM EST
    Squirrels have been eating the wires under my car for the last couple of years. Three times I've had to have wiring replaced at $200  a pop. So far, haven't found anything to stop them. Squirrels are definitely not my favorite animal.

    [ Parent ]
    my dog (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:07:43 PM EST
    would love nothing more than to catch a squirrel.  they taunt and torment him constantly.
    in fact I think he probably took out his rage at the squirrels on the poor little bunny.


    [ Parent ]
    Warning: graphic violence! (none / 0) (#198)
    by Fabian on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:28:29 PM EST
    My dog and I spend every spring looking for bunny nests.  I have nothing against cute, furry critters until they eat my garden.  Then I decide a little natural selection is in order.

    So every spring I look for the subtle signs of a bunny nest.  Perhaps a wisp of gray fur or a small tuft of dry grass betrays the nest, which is just a small depression lined with dry grass and fur.  Once the nest is discovered, the hound is summoned and he dispatches each piping infant via gross physiological trauma.  Ordinarily he would humanely or caninely dispatch prey by breaking its spine, but bunny babies are too small.  

    The thing is that he roams freely on our modest suburban yard, so the rabbits must know that they are nesting in his territory and they do it anyway.  So I don't feel too bad about curbing the local rabbit population.  If they were smart, they'd pick someone else's yard to raise their young in.  

    [ Parent ]

    Go Boston! (none / 0) (