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State Polling of Obama-McCain Race: A Realistic Assessment

Obama and McCain in dead heat in Minnesota? Obama by 11 in Ohio? McCain by 4 in North Carolina? Does any of this make sense? Not to me frankly. But let's start with the best "news" first - the PPP Ohio poll:

Obama leads by equal margins among men and women, and has a four point lead with white voters while also holding a dominant 75-21 advantage with African Americans.

A Democrat has not won white voters in Ohio in a Presidential election since Bill Clinton in 1996. Obama leads by 11 DESPITE "only" winning African American voters (13% of the Ohio electorate according to the poll) by 75-21? No gender gap? Puhleeeaze. That said, it means something - to wit, Obama should fight as hard for Ohio as any swing state because he can win it and stop McCain dead in his tracks right there. McCain can NOT lose Ohio and win the Presidency in my estimation. More.

SUSA's Minnesota poll is equally unfathomable. McCain TIES Obama in the 18-34 group? Ridiculous. McCain wins Independents by 11? And still is only tied? Absurd.

I do not believe Minnesota is even competitive myself. I think Obama has a lock on Minnesota.

How about North Carolina? Is it REALLY a 4 point race? This one has demographics that make it more believable. Obama loses whites (79% of the electorate) by 54-31 and wins African Americans (18% of the electorate) by 86-7.

In 2004 general election, African Americans comprised 26% of the North Carolina electorate, and John Kerry carried them by 85-14. There is no reason to believe that Obama will not at least match that turnout of African American voters and will certainly do better than 85% of the African American vote. Here's the part that IS hard to believe - that Obama will only lose whites by 23 points in North Carolina. John Kerry and John Edwards lost white North Carolinians in 2004 by 46 points. If Obama cuts it to 35, it will be a huge achievement.

Assume, for the sake of argument, 72% of the North Carolina electorate will be white and Obama pushes African American participation to 28% of the North Carolina electorate. Assume further that Obama carries 92% of the African American vote. Assume further that he improves on the Kerry-Edwards performance in North Carolina and gets 35% of the white vote. THEN, Obama wins North Carolina 51-49.

In short, for Obama to win North Carolina, he needs a miracle basically. Record breaking African American turnout COUPLED with a record breaking performance for a Democrat with white North Carolinians - an 8 point improvement over a ticket that included a native son of North Carolina.

It ain't going to happen people.

One last poll to discuss - Ras' Virginia poll that has Obama plus one. the problem with Ras is he does not provide crosstabs. but let's run the exercise based on the 2004 election. In 2004, Kerry/Edwards won the African American vote (21% of the electorate) by 87-12 and lost the white vote by 68-32 (72% of the electorate). The remainder 7% of the Virginia vote was Latino, Asian and other.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Obama pushes African American turnout up to 23% of the Virginia vote and wins the group by 92-8. Let's further assume Obama is able to outperform Kerry/Edwards and capture 35% of the white vote. Let's further assume that Obama capture the 5% of the "other vote" by 65-35. The result is . . . a 50-50 tie.

So assuming an incredible performance for Obama in Virginia (Note - Jim Webb won 42% of the white and 685 of the Asian vote, 3%) in 2006, and barely beat George Allen), and he might squeak out a victory.

Here's my point - Obama CAN win Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Colorado, Minnesota, New Mexico, Nevada, etc. Hell, he should. But it is absurd to argue that Obama's election strategy hinges on winning Virginia and North Carolina. Fight for them? Of course! That helps keep McCain out of Ohio and Michigan especially. But COUNT on them? Please, no.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    The PPP Ohio poll is just wacky (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:45:19 PM EST
    And the Minnesota poll is useless to me because it does not report a racial breakdown. I have an email out to SUSA about that now.  

    I agree with the rest of what you say, except that you spare the Obama camp the embarrassment of bothering to refute their "Georgia is in play" meme.

    George might not be in play (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:49:32 PM EST
    At the presidential level, but if he can bring out the vote it will help a lot of democrats at the state and local levels.  This is the case I think in a lot of states that might not be realistic for a democrat to win at the presidential level.  

    [ Parent ]
    Personally. . . (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:01:53 PM EST
    I think George is completely out of it this time around.

    [ Parent ]
    We're killing independent George! (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:23:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well played Sir (none / 0) (#152)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:33:26 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    PHEW !!! (none / 0) (#46)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:26:55 PM EST
    at least we can take that one to the bank!

    [ Parent ]
    His EC votes will be (none / 0) (#76)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:43:29 PM EST
    critical and he's primes to beat teh Virgin.

    [ Parent ]
    This is one of the few reasons (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:03:50 PM EST
    I can see for the Democrats to keep pounding the drum about Georgia, and maybe a few of the other small-chance states.  It's a GOTV effort, not nec. a realistic assessment of the possibilities.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:15:36 PM EST
    Obama WILL NOT help downticket races. This is a myth. Most candidates don't want anything to do with him.

    [ Parent ]
    What good are downticket (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by pie on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:22:04 PM EST
    wins in GA if they're Zell Milleresque?

    I'd rather those people run as republicans.

    [ Parent ]

    Kerry/Edwards lost whites in Georgia (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:56:04 PM EST
    76-23 and the state by 17 points.

    African American turnout was 25% of the total and Kerry/Edwards won them 88-12.

    Obama, with an incredible performance, can keep it within single digits.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:12:08 PM EST
    he won't even keep it in single digits. His best shot is losing by 10 pts imo. AA vote was massive and maxed out in 2004. Bob Barr won't help him because he is drawing potential Obama voters as well as McCain voters. Then you have Cynthia McKinney who could take some of Obama's voters. And yep, Obama has zero chance of carrying any state in the south plus the border states.

    [ Parent ]
    AA's (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:28:30 PM EST
    Aren't going to vote for Cynthia.  Not when they have a viable candidate.  And AA voting certainly didn't max out in '04...if anything it was kind of lethargic.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh some (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:20:27 PM EST
    will vote for her here in GA. It's not like Obama is going to carry GA anyway and she's the local candidate.

    Here in GA the AA vote was maxed out in 2004. We had a black candidate running for senate named Denise Majette. Read carefully now: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH AA's IN GA to get Obama a win in the state.

    [ Parent ]

    Today's news about obama and (none / 0) (#162)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:44:06 PM EST
    southern states:

    link

    [ Parent ]

    In other words, impossible (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:09:40 PM EST
    But if he does really well there with black turnout in rural areas, he might have coattails on local races. That's not something we care too much about, though. Winning the WH is everything.

    [ Parent ]
    Not So Sure the Coattails Will Be Meaningful (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:19:22 PM EST
    Most of Obama's improved showing will be in boosting African American turnout.  The districts where most African Americans live are already going to be democratic because they vote democratic.  If boosting AA turnout could help, Dems would rule the South and the country.

    Yes, he could boost black turnout in rural areas, but I don't think there's enough black votes there to overcome his deficit among whites, which is bound to be greater in rural areas.  

    [ Parent ]

    The current Georgia State Senate and house maps (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:21:49 PM EST
    were drawn under the supervision of a Federal Court, so they are reasonably fair I think. There's essentially a soft pack of blacks.

    Still, I think you're overall probably right, which is why Georgia is out of the picture at the Presidential level.

    [ Parent ]

    I say check back in a few weeks and see (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:04:11 PM EST
    where we are...

    [ Parent ]
    This (5.00 / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:14:28 PM EST
    is a myth that the Obama campaign has put out there. Most of the districts that are majority AA already have a Dem. The other districts he won't help. Barrow endorsed Obama but he has a primary challenger. He may not even make it out of the primary.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you understate this (none / 0) (#124)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:17:13 PM EST
    Districts with greater than 30% AA pop are marginal for Republicans. A conservative white Democrat could win such a district.

    [ Parent ]
    No (1.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    because the way Obama has campaigned he will lose white votes for every black vote he gains.

    [ Parent ]
    No. (none / 0) (#187)
    by oldpro on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:14:23 PM EST
    Winning the White House is NOT everything.

    Not to some of us, anyway, who actually lived through the past 50 years in politics.  Sometimes what mattered most was the governor's race...or the country commissioners', or the mayor's race or the state House, US Senate...etc.

    If the presidency is all you care about, you're not really doing politics IMHO.

    [ Parent ]

    Ok, that's fair (none / 0) (#195)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:26:05 PM EST
    I overstated my point. But for the big issues, as Hillary said, it takes a President.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't Forget State Races (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:31:14 PM EST
    Redistricting is in 2010.  Not a coincidence that the GOP took over Congress shortly after they took over state houses.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, I know about that (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    And so yes, state races matter. Max black redistricting in 1991-2 made 1994 possible.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has to (none / 0) (#106)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:06:54 PM EST
    Bring in whites, but he can push AA turnout up hugely.  Only about half of the AA REGISTERED dems voted in 2004.  We've also acquired quite a few "creative-class" folks since 04 and we have the advantage of Bob Barr (a Georgian) who'll leach votes from McCain.  Clinton won in '92 with roughly the same model.  Perot helped out by sapping votes, Clinton got quite a bit of AA support, and he brought in enough white votes.  Obama will bring in fewer whites but will try to make up for it with a huge win in a larger AA electorate.  I think GA is a long shot state...but the harder McCain has to work here the better Ohio looks.  
    If we get "an incredible performance" from Obama (the GDP vote drive succeeds, Barr gets votes, Obama gets a few whites), Obama takes GA.


    [ Parent ]
    Ok, whatever (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:08:08 PM EST
    I love how none of these "Barr will help in Georgia!" people never mention Cynthia McKinney.

    [ Parent ]
    I Bet She Ciphons Some of the AA Vote (5.00 / 6) (#112)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:11:07 PM EST
    heck, if Obama's campaign can't stop behaving like 12-year-old jacka$$es, she might ciphon off mine.

    Of course, I realize as a Clinton supporter I would still be a racist.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:20:43 PM EST
    Think she's running for POTUS...is she?  You do realize that we have a huge number of unregistered but elligible AA's?  That the turnout will be enormous?  Barr will help in GA as a sort of Ron Paul surrogate who is FROM GEORGIA.  I acknowledged that it's a longshot state...I'm just saying it's possible and will make McCain's campaign harder.  You also realize that neither Gore nor Kerry really campaigned in GA...because there was no reason to.  

    [ Parent ]
    She Is Running for POTUS (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:24:48 PM EST
    and, last I looked, was in the lead to be the Green Party nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    That's precious (3.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:30:16 PM EST
    Trust me.  No one will be voting for her.

    [ Parent ]
    Nor will anyone be voting for Bob Barr (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:35:21 PM EST
    They are equally inconsequential. And Georgia remains completely out of reach.

    [ Parent ]
    Not true (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:40:48 PM EST
    Barr actually has some support in GA.  He'll get the crazy Ron Paul vote at least, and the only people who would have been voting for Cynthia are members of her own family and AA's who would only vote for an AA.  Those AA's (I can't speak for Cynthia's family) will be voting Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    There is also a shiny new voter ID law. (none / 0) (#131)
    by Burned on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:20:18 PM EST
    I'm assuming Obama's Georgia people are out in force getting that taken care of.

    [ Parent ]
    bob barr (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:18:11 PM EST
    is leaching votes from both Obama and McCain. Obama isn't going to get enough white votes to win like Clinton did.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:25:54 PM EST
    I think he hurts McCain more, but he'll also give disaffected GOP and GOP-leaning independents an out other than voting for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    He also (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:15:39 PM EST
    gives Dems a place to register a protest vote. The last poll I saw here in GA had McCain at 45%, Obama at 35% and Barr at 8%. You could certainly say with those numbers that Barr is taking votes away from both candidates.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Claw on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:26:04 PM EST
    He isn't.  No one thinks Obama's a libertarian.  He's going to take unhappy republicans and that's it.  Votes for Barr will be lost votes for McCain.  These are people who would have held their collective noses and voted repub, or stayed home.

    [ Parent ]
    Keep kidding yourself. (none / 0) (#186)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:13:35 PM EST
    People will vote for Barr simply because they can't stomach McCain or Obama.

    My husband is going to vote for Barr simply because he has been going to the local democratic party meetings and talking to the members. And he would have voted for Hillary if she had won the nomination. So there's one person who disproves your theory.

    [ Parent ]

    In 2004 (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:58:00 PM EST
    Bush beat Kerry/Edwards 56-44 among whites. And even captured 16% of the African American vote.

    Ohio is RIPE for the taking for Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    I read something the other day (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by litigatormom on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:18:32 PM EST
    that suggested that the Obama camp did NOT consider Ohio to be critical.  Another one of those "we can convert red and purple state" comments.  What are they smoking?  I'm not sure Obama can do as well in Ohio as Clinton would have, but why on Earth are they talking about Colorado and New Mexico and Georgia and not talking about Ohio? Isn't it bad enough that they've basically written off Florida?

    [ Parent ]
    i dont mean this personally toward you (3.66 / 6) (#50)
    by tben on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:29:14 PM EST
    but it is so tiring to hear this constant rumor-mongering and story -distortion, all in service of Obama bashing.

    They did not say that they are not looking at Ohio. They did not say that they are not making a MAJOR effort to win Ohio. They just happened to mention that yes, they could win without Ohio. Which is obviously true (hint: Kerry states plus Iowa, Colorado, New Mexico).

    You dont need Georgia, or NC or VA in order to win without Ohio. But, once again, they are NOT turning away from Ohio.

    [ Parent ]

    It Might Be (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:21:33 PM EST
    if Obama's campaign quits acting like they don't care about it.

    This may be the first political campaign I've ever seen where insulting and ignoring key voters seems to be part of the strategy.  Talk about a weird way to build a majority party.  

    [ Parent ]

    my thinking is that those who hold their nose (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by thereyougo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:25:41 PM EST
    to vote McCain, would do it knowing the certainty of democratic Congress will balance the president.

    Its the only way McCain wins, and not much Obama can do about that. Its why some Independents are on the fence 50/50 in some contests.

    [ Parent ]

    Throwing this out.....if McCain wins and the (4.75 / 4) (#109)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:08:18 PM EST
    democratic party obtains a very large majority in the congress (veto proof let's say), how much damage could McCain do?  He has been very good about working with the dems, so far.  Just curious and before any panty bunching starts, I am not voting McCain, just asking the question.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (4.75 / 4) (#144)
    by Jackson Hunter on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:27:48 PM EST
    the '06 elections were an historic wipeout, even though the Press (quelle surprise) played it down the best that they could.  Pelosi and Reid are going to allow Telco Immunity to go through out of fear of a President who is at Nixonian levels, so what will they do with a freshly elected one?  They are political cowards who can't even control their own people, so I have little faith there.  Plus, the party has gone "all in" on this Election, if we lose there are going to be some MAJOR shakeups.  (There should be even if we win, our Selection process sucks eggs.)

    That said, I vote by my reasoned beliefs, not out of my abject fears.  Obama will very likely get my vote, but the deal isn't sealed, and I'm very unentuhsiatic about voting for the guy.  (His whole campaign has a Bushian feel to it, as so many others have noted, not in its ideology but in the way that they market him and the tactics of (some) of his supporters.  Replacing one personality cult with another may temporarily stop the bleeding, but it could have severe long range effects.  Before I get yelled at, Sen. Obama is far superior to Shrub, that's not what I'm saying, but something just doesn't feel right.)  My Pres. vote may go empty, but I doubt it.

    My thoughts at least.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Why associate getting hyper or unreasonable... (3.00 / 0) (#146)
    by Thanin on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:29:40 PM EST
    with a female article of clothing?

    Also, the dems in the house and senate have definitely proven that they have no spine against a republican president.

    [ Parent ]

    We're Weak, Vote for More of Us! (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:33:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    he's got to camp out in Ohio anyway. (none / 0) (#73)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:42:31 PM EST
    So I suppose you can say he'll do well there.

    [ Parent ]
    PPP OH (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Emma on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:58:04 PM EST
    I heard the PPP OH poll oversampled Dems by 25%.  If that's the correct terminology to mean:  there were too many Democrats in the survey to give an accurate result.

    [ Parent ]
    I Did A Rough Comparison Between This (none / 0) (#94)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:55:32 PM EST
    PPP Ohio poll and the SUSA 5/23 Ohio poll. In some ways they both look a little wacky but they track pretty closely all in all. They both have strange AA percentages. PPP 75% to 21% Obama and SUSA 76%  to 17% Obama. Both show Obama beating McCain among both men and women with only 1% gap (SUSA) between support among genders. SUSA had Obama up by 9% with 13% undecided.

     

    [ Parent ]

    i finally bought some d & d dice (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by Turkana on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:55:35 PM EST
    and will launch the "turkana poll" in the very near future...

    Good Because Kathy Has Been On (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:16:23 PM EST
    vacation and we haven't been getting any KUSA poll results.

    [ Parent ]
    Finally? I got a whole box of those from (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Joelarama on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:29:57 PM EST
    high school.  I could have sent them to you.

    On topic, I'd love to know where you dis/agree with BTD.

    [ Parent ]

    i agree with him (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by Turkana on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:39:51 PM EST
    i often do. it's quite annoying, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    Tell me about it. (5.00 / 5) (#70)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:40:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    who ever said he would COUNT (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by tben on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:58:11 PM EST
    on VA and NC?
    HAsn't the whole buzz about his strategy been explictly that he will not count on just one sketchy path to 270, but will be pushing on many fronts?

    What states DOES he count on? (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 02:59:41 PM EST
    Look, it is fun to say "50 state strategy" but this election will be won or lost in Ohio, PA and MI.

    Whatever is done, those states MUST be the focal point.

    [ Parent ]

    Alaska. (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:10:28 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of the vaunted 50 state strategy - (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by liminal on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:16:18 PM EST
    - one of the top local news stories on WOUB (a public radio station out of Athens, Ohio, with coverage across the rural SE part of the state), was about an Obama advisor's remarks (Axelrod, I believe, but couldn't swear) to an audience in D.C. that Obama didn't need Ohio to win.  The actual story was more specific and less - 'hey ohio, we don't need you!' - but the bumper, headline, and lede reminded me of the bitter/cling and Goolsbee gaffes during the primaries.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's not that simple this year (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by anydemwilldo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:23:51 PM EST
    The "it's all about Ohio" meme just doesn't hold this election.  Take a look at Poblano's analysis from yesterday for a great explanation.

    Given current polling, there are 11 states that lie within a +/- 5% advantage to either candidate (to wit: Virginia, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, North Carolina, North Dakota, Florida and Montana).  Outside of these, in the "safe" states, Obama already has 252 electoral votes.  All he needs is 18 points out of those states to win.  There are all sorts of combinations from those states that don't involve Ohio or Michigan.

    Now, obviously it's still early, some of these states won't be close in the election, and some "safe" states might switch sides too.  But the point is this: it's not 2004 any more.  The spreads aren't simply trending towards democrats, they're flattening across the board even in traditionally very red states.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:29:21 PM EST
    that Poblano says it does not make it so.

    Montana, Indiana, North Carolina, North Dakota and Florida are not in play imo.

    Unless it is a landslide. And if it is a landslide, then what does it matter?

    You run the race that is before us, not the one you dream of.

    Bill Clinton won Ohio and Missouri (not to mention Kentucky, WV (by double digits!!) and Louisiana) in 1996 on his way to 370 electoral votes. Kerry ALMOST won Ohio.

    Bill Clinton led Bob Dole by at least 10 throughout that campaign.

    Right now, we have a tight race, within 5 points.

    I think we need to be REALISTIC in our assessments.

    [ Parent ]

    it's interesting how Florida is still considered (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:49:16 PM EST
    in play by someone with Poblano's statistical background. It's almost inconceivable that it's in play without either a white southerner or Hillary Clinton on the ticket.  evne then without her on the top of th eticket it's a stretch to say that Mccain wont win there.

    [ Parent ]
    Not PA (4.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:03:21 PM EST
    I think Obama has a firm lock on PA, and MN as well. Demos just don't work out well for McCain in terms of AAs, and they seem to be a bit bluer than MI and OH are at the moment.

    This election will be won in OH, yes. MI, we'll wait and see, but probably there too, yes. OH should be the focal point. MI could be made up through CO, IA, NM, VA, NV, or other places. OH is critical, but I don't think MI is AS critical. It only becomes critical if he loses PA for some reason, which I think is a pipe-dream.

    [ Parent ]

    PA is no lock (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:06:56 PM EST
    and that is part of my concern.

    A LOT of talk about Georgia, NO TALK about PA.

    Michigan is already tight. Ohio should be in the bank already imo and will be IF clinton id the VP choice.

    See, this is an election that Obama should win easily. If he loses, he blew it.

    [ Parent ]

    I Think It's Telling (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:27:06 PM EST
    that Obama rolled out both the Edwards and Gore endorsements in Michigan.

    I'm sure that will totally make up for miscounting their votes and then seating half the delegates.  It's not like the people who got screwed in the primary get to vote in the GE.  Michigan violated the rules, so the votes won't count.  

    Oh, wait.

    [ Parent ]

    But that is good (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:31:23 PM EST
    He is campaigning like crazy in Michigan. that is a good thing.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes and No (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:41:13 PM EST
    It's good that he recognizes he needs Michigan and is trying to win it.

    It's not so good that he needs to be working so hard in that particular state.  Michigan can swing and does need attention, but it shouldn't need this kind of unrelenting focus.  

    [ Parent ]

    MI... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Alec82 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:54:48 PM EST
    ...has been a battleground state for decades. Democratic wins there are narrow. It deserves quite a bit of attention.

    [ Parent ]
    Rove was on TV saying how (none / 0) (#83)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:47:11 PM EST
    dumb ist was to roll out Gore in Michigan.   I wonder how the GOP are exploiting the Enviromental record of Gore in that Car manufacturing state?

    Anyone know?

    [ Parent ]

    Rove made a good point, then (none / 0) (#85)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:48:15 PM EST
    I really hope Rick Davis is an idiot and puts all of his money in California. I doubt it, though.

    [ Parent ]
    The problems for McCain in California (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by SoCalLiberal on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:09:34 PM EST
    Is that Kerry won by such a huge margin (1.2 million votes) that it's almost impossible to make up for that difference.  California had voted 6 straight times for the GOP before Bill Clinton took the state in 1992.  But Dukakis had kept it close in 1988, only losing the state by 4%.  How you make up a 1.2 million vote difference is beyond me.  

    I think the GOP in California has this grand delusion there are all these white conservative suburban voters.  These voters don't really vote but once they do, the GOP will triumph.  Every election, these millions of voters fail to materialize and shift the state red...largely because they don't exist.  There are these voters but there are simply not enough of them.

    Now, in 2004 Bush won the white vote (though lost among white women) and garnered 18% of the black vote.  However, he lost the state by double digits because Latinos and Asians voted 2-1 for Kerry.  Kerry also won 60% of Independent voters, who are critical to Democrats winning California.  Similarly, Latinos and Asians voted 3-1 and 4-1 respectively for Hillary in the primary.  Now that might give McCain an opening.  He's not going to win white progressives over in California.  The only way for McCain to win is to get a massive defection of Latinos and Asians and couple that with major inroads among independents.  Now that could happen, there's a lot of rancor over the primary and I've seen polls where Latinos shockingly favor McCain and where Obama polls weakly among Asian voters.  But that won't be enough and frankly, if McCain does win California, it will likely just be an exclamation point on a resounding election victor (ugh).  

    [ Parent ]

    I think talk of CA for R or GA for D (none / 0) (#120)
    by davnee on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:15:56 PM EST
    Is somewhat silly.  Not that it can't happen.  But only that if it did happen, it would be like you said the exclamation point on an otherwise resounding victory.  These kinds of huge flips are not going to be the leading edge of anything.  If they start to go, then you will already have safely bet your money on one candidate or the other.

    [ Parent ]
    Medical marijuana oln Michigan ballot (none / 0) (#212)
    by Ben Masel on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:45:42 PM EST
    should help Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed on the last part. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:09:48 PM EST
    And yes, OH should be in the bank for us. There are a number of VP picks he can make in OH that would lock that down, but Clinton does it the safest.

    I still think PA is a lock. :P Youth, income, and racial demographics just aren't looking good for McCain there in the fall.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm no longer that worried about Pennsylvania. (none / 0) (#27)
    by tigercourse on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:15:04 PM EST
    Of course, it all depends on how Republican attacks ads play. Michigan is a big concern for me though. The right VP, and the Republicans have it. Which would pretty much cancel out even a win in Ohio.

    [ Parent ]
    I would like to (none / 0) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:56:08 PM EST
    revise and extend my previous remarks about Obamas chances of winning.
    if McCain continues to run the old republican guy campaign he is currently running Obama will win.
    and probably win big.
    I mean, I realize he IS and old republican guy but for some reason I expected a smarter campaign.
    and I also realize its early.

    [ Parent ]
    Clinton won't be offered the VP spot (none / 0) (#158)
    by Newt on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:40:49 PM EST
    Their hiring of Patti Solis Doyle as the VP's chief of staff tells us that.  You don't hire someone Hillary fired and announce their job will be COS for the new VP unless you're very sure the VP won't be Hillary.  I think the Obama campaign made a strong statement in publicizing the Solis Doyle hiring before the VP announcement.

    [ Parent ]
    Then Obama's a bigger fool (none / 0) (#188)
    by pie on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:15:16 PM EST
    than I previously thought.

    [ Parent ]
    wouldnt want to argue that (none / 0) (#196)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:26:57 PM EST
    but if you saw Tweety and company laughing about the obvious slap in the face to Hillary the Doyle thing represents you would have to agree it looks less and less likely.

    [ Parent ]
    Just never could see any indication that Obama (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:47:07 PM EST
    would really consider Hillary for VP and all kinds of indications from his surrogates (declared and undeclared) and his actions that he won't offer it to her.

    Not a biggie for me since I don't want her as Obama's VP and Obama himself will have to convince me to vote for him.  So far, I'm not convinced.

    [ Parent ]

    Can you say (none / 0) (#202)
    by pie on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:32:44 PM EST
    deal-breaker?

    I can.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't think he has a firm lock on PA (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:07:39 PM EST
    Not unless he posts Rendell-like numbers in the Philly burbs a-la 2002. It's certainly possible, but he NEEDS to improve in the southwest (you know, Appalachia!)

    [ Parent ]
    Oh yes (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:15:19 PM EST
    I think the 84% in Philly burbs is probable, not just possible. And I expect the margin Obama wins by in Montgomery and Bucks county to be a bit more than 60-40ish, actually. I also expect Pittsburgh and the metro areas trend more D for Obama than Rendell got. He will probably be a bit weaker in SW PA, yes. I just think the urban migration, and the dwindling economy are gonna make PA a safe Dem state this year. It's important, very important, yes, and resources should be allocated there to keep it that way, but nevertheless, I think OH and MI are bigger battles at the moment.

    [ Parent ]
    84% in the Philly burbs? (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:19:38 PM EST
    Rendell was a special candidate. I think you're living in dreamland to expect Obama to break 55% in any of the adjacent counties.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:23:16 PM EST
    I would have thought a 60-40 very doable. That's discouraging.

    [ Parent ]
    I rather doubt it (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:27:38 PM EST
    look at 1996. Check Bucks, Montgomery, and Delaware. Even accounting for Perot, Clinton's margins didn't really approach what you're calling for. And Bill Clinton was singularly responsible for making it socially acceptable that white suburbanites could vote Democratic.

    [ Parent ]
    Listen up (5.00 / 5) (#92)
    by SoCalLiberal on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:53:42 PM EST
    We have a new Democratic Party and we don't need your stinkin' state to win.  In fact, Obama can easily concede Pennsylvania, Ohio, Florida, Michigan, and West Virginia and still win in a landslide!  You're just part of the old Democratic party, kinda like Donald Rumsfeld's old Europe.  

    (snark)

    [ Parent ]

    Wayste Ferhinya? (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:48:18 PM EST
    We don't need stinkin' Wayste Ferjinia!

    [ Parent ]
    Urban migration. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:29:21 PM EST
    It's part of the reason NJ is trending less blue these days.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? NJ trending less blue? (none / 0) (#61)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:36:35 PM EST
    Even if you mean, more blue, it can't makeup for a total lack of support for Obama in the areas Hillary won huge in PA (Lackawanna, Indiana, Green counties).

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:40:42 PM EST
    NJ folks are moving to Philly and NYC. That's part of the reason Lautenberg's in so much trouble, and why McCain's polled better than thought against Obama in NJ.

    [ Parent ]
    I have no idea where you got this from (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:41:45 PM EST
    but the NJ suburbs have been trending blue for more than  decade. It's just like the PA suburbs and the NoVA suburbs.

    [ Parent ]
    One of the Reasons PA (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:30:39 PM EST
    was a lot bigger Clinton win than Obama had hoped was that the Obama campaign overestimated his support in the suburbs.  He was supposed to win many of them to add to his run up in the city.  He either lost them or barely won them and so didn't get enough of the vote to offset the smaller cities and rural areas.

    Then there's his bitter-cling comments.  My guess is that McCain isn't going to be as polite as Hillary was and fail to note that he didn't just say Pennsylvanians cling to god and guns, they also cling to racism and xenophobia.  Add in a few quotes from prominent Obama supporters arguing that the voters in rural Pennsylania are racists and that should help McCain a lot in the rural areas and small towns.

    I think Obama can win PA (less sure about OH, frankly), but he's an idiot if he considers it a lock.

    [ Parent ]

    I was just back there over the weekend (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:34:13 PM EST
    Latte town is blanketed with Obama signs. But I think they confuse signs and crowds with overall support--still.

    [ Parent ]
    It Worked In New Hampshire! (none / 0) (#78)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:44:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And, um, PA (none / 0) (#81)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:45:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Michigan can be "made up" (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by litigatormom on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:23:40 PM EST
    CO, IA, NM, VA, NV, or other places?  Please.  MI is critical.  He can't assume he can capture enough additional "red" or "purple" states to make up for MI.  He's already lost FLA.  And he doesn't have a "lock" on PA. Clinton might have had a "lock" on it, but right now Obama doesn't.  He needs to build up his presence in PA.  He can't take MI or OH or PA for granted, nor can he assume that he can pick up enough states for those big three to become less than critical.  

    He also needs to watch out for NJ.  My guess is that it will go Blue in the end, but NJ has a tendency to poll more Republican than it actually goes.  McCain will poll well there, at least for a while, and Obama can't let up there.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't think dems will win Michigan or Ohio (none / 0) (#172)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:51:50 PM EST
    Detroit won't compensate for a huge statewide loss which is what I predict will happen

    [ Parent ]
    PA and MI, yes (none / 0) (#57)
    by tben on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:32:15 PM EST
    Ohio would be the quickest most direct way to get over the top. I am sure they are making a major effort there. I mean MAJOR.

    But it aint necessary.
    Kerry states + CO, NM, IA would do it, for example, and there are several other combos.

    [ Parent ]

    the easiest way to shut the door (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:35:38 PM EST
    and to actually just put this thing away is to actually build a 10 point lead in Ohio.

    McCain has no map without Ohio.

    He DOES have one even if he loses Iowa and Colorado.

    [ Parent ]

    i agree (none / 0) (#63)
    by tben on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:37:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I believe that Ohio is essentially tied right now (none / 0) (#64)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:37:31 PM EST
    That's pretty scary.

    [ Parent ]
    Especially Given the Low GOP (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:45:48 PM EST
    enthusiasm level for McCain.  He has no crowds and no money.  The Ohio economy has been decimated.  How could it possibly be close?

    [ Parent ]
    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:41:15 PM EST
    lots of people plan to split their tickets. Lots of people see McCain as bad but see Obama as just as bad if not worse. The GOP isn't excited with their candidate and outside of AA's and the creative class, Dem's don't seem to be too excited either.

    [ Parent ]
    however minus Nh and Mighigan and (none / 0) (#87)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:50:48 PM EST
    That plan doesn't work.

    You are assuming that Obama gets every Kerry state.

    [ Parent ]

    and NH is a risky bet (none / 0) (#89)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:51:47 PM EST
    John Lynch makes an interesting sleeper VP option.

    [ Parent ]
    But he has to scare the Republicans elsewhere (none / 0) (#84)
    by Llelldorin on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:47:31 PM EST
    You're right--If he doesn't win OH, PA, and MI, he'll have a heck of a time making it up elsewhere.

    What he can't do is focus all his efforts into a straight-up duel with McCain on those three states. Republicans have demonstrated their skill in elections that revolve around a tiny handfull of states. They're really good at pouring in money and playing local political games.

    Obama has a fair amount of money to play with this year. It might make sense to try to bleed the less-well-funded McCain campaign by making him keep running back to VA, NC, NV, and CO to nail them down, instead of just throwing four months and all his resources into the upper Midwest.

    What we really want to do is put the Republicans into the position we're usually in, where they have to run the "battleground states", while we can pick and choose. If VA and NC become battleground states, McCain suddenly has a much harder game to play.


    [ Parent ]

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:44:15 PM EST
    is that money doesn't seem to really help Obama. If he had to outspend Hillary 2 or 3 times over to eke out a win in the dem primary what does that say about the general election where people are less inclined toward him? The advantage McCain has is that he's a known quantity.

    [ Parent ]
    Doesn't help in a single state (none / 0) (#207)
    by Llelldorin on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:38:53 PM EST
    The problem there was that in the later primaries (particularly after February, by which time Clinton was campaigning hard and well) you contest 1-3 states at a time. There's a limit to how much money can help you there--having ads on TV every three minutes instead of every 5 isn't much help.

    What money can buy you is lots of simultaneous campaigns. If Obama just pours money into Ohio, McCain can beat him anyway (just as Clinton did, in many states). If he can hold NC close enough, though, he can force McCain to also campaign there. Likewise CO, NV, and VI. McCain has less money to spend, so slicing it more ways hurts him more than it does Obama.

    Besides, to be brutally frank, if you're 46 and running against a septuagenarian, it makes sense to force them to chase you all over the map, instead of letting them sit in a single timezone contesting three adjacent states.

    [ Parent ]

    case in point (none / 0) (#88)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 03:51:39 PM EST
    I duno if Rove is just jawing but he suggested that Gore being in Michigan was a mistake.

    [ Parent ]
    I read today (none / 0) (#123)
    by pie on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:17:02 PM EST
    that Chuck Todd said it was risky, because of the anti-environmental car industry.

    Nice to see Todd echoing Rove, isn't it.

    I suppose y'all heard about the GOP buttons at the Texas state convention.  

    Nice.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh dear (none / 0) (#199)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:30:30 PM EST
    TYodd Echoing Rove.

    They really Hate Al don't they?

    [ Parent ]

    NC is not in play for dems (none / 0) (#173)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 04:57:22 PM EST
    I doubt Colorado is either especially if Romney is on the ticket.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jun 17, 2008 at 05:01:44 PM EST
    ...we are just soooooo in love with Mitten's magical underwear that we'll all vote Republican.

    Fail.

    [ Parent ]