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Late Night: Fire and Rain

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:07:02 PM EST
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According to Tim Russert's son Luke, his dad's favorite music was what Russert called "geezer rock" and included “Springsteen, Fogerty, Van Morrison and James Taylor.”

Watching the media coverage tonight, you can't help but feel touched by how much his colleagues respected him and will miss him. This is for them.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Late Night: Fire and Rain | 180 comments (180 topical)

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    Hopefully, it won't take long for his (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:12:59 PM EST
    colleagues to come to grips with their loss and know Russert would want them to move on and make him proud.

    Can't remember who (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:15:34 PM EST
    told the story but one of his friends said Tim had always wanted to get Springsteen on MTP.  Tim was proud that he had booked Springsteen, before he became the rock star, for a concert at his college.  The two were supposed to have been good friends.  

    yes I just read an obit (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:18:02 PM EST
    that said Springsteen would "receive him" backstage at his concerts.

    Parent
    I'm thinking about death now, which (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:18:06 PM EST
    is bad.

    In my family, I have at least two great grandfathers who died more-or-less how Russert did (i.e. around 60 of a cardiac incident, and with too many pounds on the waistline). I find myself taking a second look at everything I'm eating this evening--that's something I should always do of course. . .

    Frankly....I know lots about death (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:33:15 PM EST
    I know it's hard for those left behind when someone dies like that, but in so many ways, just a clean no suffering way, is sort of what people wish for all the time.  

     Years ago I heard someone say, each family gets a few good clean deaths, everyone else gets to suffer and have long prolonged painful deaths.  

    It's not the pounds, it's the stress and the pounds.  We create a self imposed contineous state of stress.  It's not normal.  The predators did not attack us all the time.  They took breaks.  Now we are on constant over zealous fear over load.  

    Parent

    Well, what about saying goodbye? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:35:00 PM EST


    Parent
    Well, yeah that is hard (none / 0) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:38:57 PM EST
    but most people waste it.  But it was his death.  It's not about the others.  Frankly, when I saw him during the primaries, he was looking really bad.  

    Parent
    I'd agree people waste it, from my (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:41:42 PM EST
    experience. If I think about my own death, though, I'd like the chance to see people, even if I was in pain.


    Parent
    I've Had Both Of My Parents Die After Extended (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:52:17 PM EST
    illnesses. Watched them as they and their lives deteriorated day by day for over a year until they became a shell of their normal shelves.

    Death of a love one is never easy but long term illnesses do not necessarily mean that family members become accepting of the loss or that long held issues are resolved. If given a choice, I would prefer to go quickly.

    Parent

    Oh yes, I know that from my own family. (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:58:49 PM EST
    If there was a "best" experience with a dying friend, it was when a friend with HIV developed pneumonia and went very quickly.  But in his case, I felt like I got to say goodbye. He was one of the strongest-willed people I had ever met, and I think he was able to just give up  when he finally became seriously ill, instead of lingering.

    Parent
    Far more important (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:46:42 PM EST
    to get your cholesterol levels checked regularly, even starting at your age because of your family history, and take cholesterol-lowering drugs if necessary.

    Diet won't help you one bit if you have the kind of cholesterol that doesn't respond to diet, as many do.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:57:56 PM EST


    Parent
    Dr Agaston, the South Beach doctor (none / 0) (#96)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:09:30 AM EST
    has an excellent book out about heart health. He's a heart specialist, not a dietician. He partnered with a dietician for the eating style for heart health.

    It's always best to establish good habits young.

    Parent

    Is there a diet which is healthy for (none / 0) (#110)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:23:38 AM EST
    everyone ---or healthier than other options?
    Or do genetics matter in that too?

    Parent
    One size fits all? (none / 0) (#124)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:40:28 AM EST
    South Beach is a very healthy way to eat for everyone, except I personally don't think it allows enough Omega fatty acids.

    If you can afford it, Perricone has the best diet for both health and retarding the aging process :) JMHO

    Parent

    Mmmmm....fish! (none / 0) (#131)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:52:26 AM EST
    I keep meaning to check out exactly what he says, but you can't go wrong with quality fish and quality olive oil. And dark leafy greens and cruciferous (however you spell that) veggies.

    And artichokes. Apparently artichokes are some kind of wonder food.

    Parent

    really? I like artichokes, but they are a bother (none / 0) (#143)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:19:14 AM EST
    to cook and eat.
    I wonder if artichoke hearts stored in brine are good for you.

    Parent
    They have them frozen here. (none / 0) (#146)
    by LoisInCo on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:23 AM EST
    (Hearts only)

    Parent
    Gee, they're about the least (none / 0) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:36:15 AM EST
    bothersome to cook.  Throw 'em in boiling water for half an hour.  What's complicated about that?

    As for eating, peel off a leaf, dip it in something delicious, put it in your mouth, scrape off the good stuff with your teeth.  Eh?

    Lots of stuff to discard, true, but if you have any kind of a yard, it's great for composting.

    Parent

    My grandfather used to say (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:13:07 PM EST
    that when you eat an artichoke, you have more left over than you had when you started. He used to joke it was some sort of contradiction to a natural law. My interpretation of that is that an artichoke is the vegetable version of the TARDIS. Heh.

    Parent
    In the Jewish ghetto in Rome, one of (none / 0) (#148)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:41:43 AM EST
    the specialties is fried artichoke.  Really melts in your mouth.

    Parent
    Mmm (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:22:50 AM EST
    that sounds absolutely wonderful. Are they baby artichokes that the use? Or do they use the mature ones and you have to eat it by pulling off each leaf?

    Parent
    Softball size. You eat everything. (none / 0) (#196)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:01:17 PM EST
    [Probably not so good for cholestrol though.]

    Parent
    Stupid artichoke (and veggie) trick (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:06:46 AM EST
    When I'm cooking almost anything that requires boiling water, I always steam veggies whether I need them immediately or not.

    Then I just bag them and put them in the fridge for salads, snacks, sammys, for packing a lunch or for other dishes.

    Cuts down on cooking time too if you're grilling or making a stir fry.

    I LOVE artichokes every which way: stuffed, grilled, on pizza or as an appetizer (lemon and olive oil).

    Chinese Cloud Ear or Elephant Ear (Mok yee) mushrooms -- the black strings you get in Hot and Sour Soup or Kung Pau -- are also excellent for circulation and clot prevention. They absorb the "neighbor" flavors of the dish so you can use them undetectably if you don't like their innate subtle smoky flavor.

    Parent

    DASH diet is easy, effective, recc'd by experts (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:51:33 AM EST
    The DASH diet lowers blood pressure, chol, maintains healthy weight, is flexible and easy to follow and doesn't sign you onto an expensive plan.

    It was created for life and health, not profit, so it's not one of those deals where you get thin for a month but your wallet starves forever.

    http://dash.org

    Parent

    That should be (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:55:43 AM EST
    dashdiet dot org.

    Parent
    Oh yes, I've looked at that before (none / 0) (#132)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:53:46 AM EST
    (not that I remember the details).
    I was just looking a a Glycemic Index table.
    Now I know why a doctor friend of mine calls white rice "white death"---it's at the top of the chart!

    Parent
    ed Dashdiet dot org Free, effective, flexible n/t (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:00:34 AM EST


    Parent
    Genetics matter a lot. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Fabian on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 05:23:24 AM EST
    So does the amount of exercise you get.  One polar expedition had its members eating some insane amount of butter.  (Fat calories weigh less.)  They drew blood samples during the trek and the test results showed nothing out of the ordinary.  Their bodies  burned the fat and cholesterol for energy.  Most of us don't have that level of physical exertion.

    In general
    Eat your fruits and veggies.
    Don't spike your blood sugar.      
    As my son would say "That's a treat, right?".  Our bodies are not built to deal with high carb loads and every time you do that, it stresses the system.
    Stay away from the Bad Fats - hydrogenated or highly saturated.
    Read the labels.  You can get tortilla chips fried in hydrogenated shortening or in vegetable oil.  You want oil, not shortening.
    Protein is great, but you don't need a ton of it.

    And always pay attention to your body.  We are so genetically diverse that what works great for one person is a disaster for another.  I love my dairy.  A glucose intolerant person may drink soy milk instead.  I'm soy intolerant, so soy milk is NOT for me!  

    Know what works for you and what you need to work on.

    Parent

    I guess this means... (none / 0) (#174)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 05:28:36 AM EST
    ...my current diet of nicotine and coffee products is out, eh?  

     Alas...

    Parent

    I hope you don't have hypertension! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Fabian on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 06:02:27 AM EST
    One fun thing to do is to research the actual effects of our OTC drugs.  Caffeine is used to regulate the heartbeat of newborns.  No kidding - it's an actual prescribed drug.  Stimulant - ups the heart rate, raises the blood pressure, acts as a diuretic and it also messes with insulin and blood sugar.  Fortunately, it's not addictive.

    And good old nicotine - a nerve toxin.  I remember one guy remembering harvesting tobacco in his youth.  It was very hot out in the fields and the old hands were covered head to toe, hat, long sleeves, long pants and gloves.  Our narrator didn't see why they wore all that clothing, so even though they warned him against it, he worked in short sleeves and short pants.  He was feeling pretty sick after a few hours as his sweaty skin absorbed more and more nicotine.  

    Parent

    Go google! (none / 0) (#189)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 11:51:43 AM EST
    "Caffeine is highly addictive."

    Parent
    My brother was praising the (none / 0) (#112)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:27:01 AM EST
    views of Gary Taubes when we met a couple of months ago. He's on a super low carbohydrate diet now. I couldn't do it. I know Taubes is not a doctor, and his book got savaged in some reviews I read.


    Parent
    Taylor in concert... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:26:25 PM EST
    ...is beautiful. I've seen him twice, and it was wonderful. His voice has faded from the glory days of his youth, but his soul shines through just like it always did. I kind of like it, because I can't sing along with his old recordings - I have pretty good range but I can't match him. Now... he's an extremely talented musician and he adjusts things so he never misses a note. And I think in many ways he's gotten better. There is more depth, if that's possible. I highly recommend the experience.

    I have tickets to see (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:17:56 PM EST
    Taylor at the Berkeley Greek theater on June 27th...cannot wait.  He really evokes so many memories.  

    Parent
    It's better than memories (none / 0) (#100)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:14:05 AM EST
    He has an almost magical presence. He's very quiet, and calm. I have a hard time imagining him angry. The times we saw him, he had secondary bands, younger people he was obviously promoting, but he sang a lot. I think that if there was one ceelbrity I would like to meet, it would be him.

    Parent
    I didn't realize until I was watching (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:26:52 PM EST
    the news tonight that Russert's wife and son were still in Europe - apparently Tim came back by himself.  I was sort of horrified thinking about what it must have been like for them being hours and hours away when this happened.

    I may not have been the biggest Russert fan - I'd pretty much given up on MTP - got tired of the very biased pundit panels, for one - but clearly this was a man who loved his family deeply, was loved and respected by his colleagues, and the grief etched onto the faces of those colleagues touched me.

    Life is short - Russert's life may have been too short, but we should all be as lucky as he was to be doing what we love.

    I had the same thought (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:28:59 PM EST
    My mom used to spend a week a month in London, and I would have nightmares about getting that phone call.

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#97)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:12:07 AM EST


    Parent
    "Why" what? (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:17:03 AM EST
    She was far away, and that alone was unnerving. It wasn't entirely rational, but nightmares never are.

    Parent
    Okay (none / 0) (#190)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    I thought maybe she had a risky job and your answer would be interesting.

    Parent
    I liked Tim Russert a lot (none / 0) (#139)
    by Grace on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:08:52 AM EST
    and I liked MTP.  

    I just can't get over how much coverage there is of his death today.  Most people on TV would just get a small mention in the news (look at the coverage of John Ritter's death for comparison).  It's blowing me away that this is completely dominating the news cycle.  

    I keep thinking that someone is going to proclaim tomorrow a "national day of mourning."  


    Parent

    way over the top! (none / 0) (#187)
    by hellothere on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:00:28 AM EST
    i am amazing at how they keep saying the same thing over and over. we understand he enjoyed his work, loved his family and church. he was a decent man who died too early. but you keep saying it over and over and over for what i now nearly 24 hours of straight programing, then that gets real old unfortunately.

    Parent
    Springsteen and his dad (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by ap in avl on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:36:00 PM EST
    Can't help but think about "Independence Day" and the eloquent description of the relationship between a young man and his father.  Then I think about Tim Russert's relationship with Big Russ and wonder about how Springsteen's music resonated with him.  

    There is quite a journey that a young man takes as he makes peace with his father.  Both of these men were able to express how their early disillusionment with their fathers changed into respect and appreciation for their sacrifices.

    My thoughts will be with the Russert family this Father's Day.

    Digby (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by nellre on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:41:32 PM EST
    scroll down
    Nobody Did Nothin'

    More deaths to mourn today... (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:17:19 AM EST
    Nellre, just pulled this from HuffPo about the flooding in the Upper Mid-West:

    At least 438 city blocks in downtown Cedar Rapids were under water...one man was killed in southern Minnesota after his car plunged from a washed-out road into floodwaters..

    Just southeast of Grand Rapids, Mich., crews pulled the body of a motorist from a car found drifting in the swollen Thornapple River...the 57-year-old man called on his cell phone but didn't say what happened or where he was; they found him using global positioning equipment.

    Condolences to the bereaved and hoping the best for all those still in danger.


    Parent

    And (none / 0) (#47)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:31:40 PM EST
    nobody tells them about it like Digby.  Thanks for the link!

    Parent
    On another topic, Clinton delegate (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:50:08 PM EST
    from Wisconsin wants a chance to vote for Clinton at the convention and threatens to vote for McCain, so angry is she about the behavior of the DNC.  

    Now the state party is asking the DNC to not accept the delegate's credentials at the convention.  Are these rules or roolz? :-)

    Stories on this are at jsonline.com; sorry I can't make cut and paste work on a borrowed computer.  I'm at a conference of women historians, the major conference in the field -- and this dismal campaign and the treatment of a woman candidate, and all women, comes up often in sessions on tangentially related topics.  And tomorrow is a special late-added session on "historic candidates."  

    Info (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Athena on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:55:11 PM EST
    I'd be interested to hear more about the reactions of these historians to the recent primary events.

    Parent
    I've read that she has committed to voting (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:58:00 PM EST
    for McCain. I sure think she should be denied convention credentials. Same as Joe Lieberman.

    If she really wanted to make a statement, she could have voted for Hillary at the convention--no one could have stopped her. But she's f'ed up her chance. And really, can you blame the state party for trying to keep her out?  

    Parent

    Indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:05:01 PM EST
    Let's just burn the heretics (eye roll).

    Parent
    Um, no (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:19:58 PM EST
    but if you publicly endorse a Republican, you should not be given the opportunity to have a platform at the Democratic National Convention.

    Parent
    Wow, did you not read it? (1.00 / 0) (#63)
    by TheViking on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:36 PM EST
    She/he said WOULD vote is she was NOT allow to cast her vote...

    Boy has Talk Left turned into a kiss-ass Obama joint. Sad really.

    Good luck with your UNITY!!! Woohooo!!!!

    Parent

    I read it (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:49:59 PM EST
    And that isn't what that article someone linked below said. It had this:

    But Bartoshevich told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, as reported on its Web site Friday, that Clinton was treated unfairly by the party and she has deep reservations about Obama's experience, so she'll vote for McCain.
    ...
    Bartoshevich, 41, told the Journal Sentinel she would vote for Clinton at the convention and then McCain in November.

    "I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters," she said.

    Maybe we're all talking about different people.

    Parent

    I can't parse what you're saying (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:15 PM EST
    but I'd like to point you to the news article I read:

    Bartoshevich, 41, told the Journal Sentinel she would vote for Clinton at the convention and then McCain in November.

    "I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters," she said.

    She said she got a call from McCain's campaign after she signed up with "Citizens for McCain," encouraged by her sister who has served in Iraq. The Journal Sentinel said the McCain campaign gave her name to a reporter.

    Now explain to me why the Democratic party should allow her credentials to the convention?


    Parent

    Because she is a delegate for Clnton (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:20:49 AM EST
    Because this woman is exaclty the kind of person they want to get back. Rejecting her from placing her ballot at the convention will not help Obaam. It will simply cement the notion that they won't vote for Obama.

    If the DNC were really smart, they'd let the Democrats for McCain have a table and let them hand out free buttons. That way, every time someone runs into one of them in the hallway they can welcome them to the convention and, hopefully, change their minds about voting for McCain.

    Parent

    While (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:33:03 PM EST
    I get that there are plenty of people upset by the treatment Clinton has received this primary season (and I REALLY get it), the Dems should not allow delegates that have publicly come out for the Repub candidate. So I have no problem with them dropping her like a hot potatoe (spelled that way for the memories).

    But that said, the Dems need to recognize this very real problem and start dealing with it. And that this lady again emphasized the problem makes me happy she has made the stand she has. One need only read that Emanuel quote in this same thread to see that at least some Dems in power still don't get it.

    Parent

    Your fetish for D after a candidate's name (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:14:41 PM EST
    is offputting to say the least.  Since when have the young been so judgmental and intolerant of other views?


    Parent
    Study aid (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:22:33 PM EST
    It's a DEMOCRATIC PARTY convention.  It's for Democrats to decide the Democratic nominee.

    Parent
    She is a Democrat (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:22:11 AM EST
    And she has a role in deciding the Democratic nominee. That doesn't mean that they has to vote for him. There isn't a membership oath. Well, there is in some states, but I'm not sure if it's  binding.

    Parent
    Correction... (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:51:00 AM EST
    ...she had her role. She got to vote in the primaries.

     That was her role. Now she no longer supports the presumptive Democratic nominee.  She is in the position she is in because she made that public.  

     This isn't remotely controversial.  Imagine a disgruntled Dean supporter threatening the same thing in 2004.  It would have been ridiculous then, it is ridiculous now.

    Parent

    Look up the meaning of PRESUMPTIVE (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:09:08 AM EST
    Now she no longer supports the presumptive Democratic nominee

    Obama is not the official nominee, nor is he entitled to claim that.

    He's done more to pander to Republicans and harm Dems. His whole schtick is based on kissing GOP @ss -- and there's a boatload of that with their pants down already.

    Maybe Obama should be banned from the DEMOCRATIC convention.

    Parent

    No, he's not... (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:48:04 AM EST
    ...and if she wanted to go to the convention and support Senator Clinton, she could have.  She came out for McCain and blew it.

     Case closed.

    Parent

    Until he's the official candidate he's presumptive (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:25:46 AM EST
    The delegates have to sanction him formally.

    Parent
    No disagreement there (none / 0) (#171)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:27:37 AM EST
    Please re-read. This has nothing to do with Senator Obama's status, and everything to do with public support of Senator McCain.

    Parent
    There is a required pledge to support the nominee (none / 0) (#141)
    by FemB4dem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:13:08 AM EST
    no matter who you are elected to support as a delegate.  I knew I couldn't so pledge, so I'm not a delegate.  Is the pledge legally binding?  Probably not.  Morally binding was the issue for me.

    I must say, though, that this loyalty oath was yet another thing that forced me to leave the party all together.  I understand what those of you are saying about the right of the party to have its rules, but this just smacks too much of McCarthyism for my taste.  Does anyone know if this pledge requirement is something new courtesy of Dr. Dean?  Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

    Parent

    Maybe the pledge is more like the Abstinence one (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:29:30 AM EST
    There's a lot of screwing around, no one actually enjoys themselves and a whole lot of shotgun weddings take place to cover up the mess.

    There ya go ... just another solid Republican idea that Obama and his kingmakers are solidly behind!

    Parent

    Can't she say (none / 0) (#182)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:23:23 AM EST
    she was for him before she was against him, and get a pass on that?

    Seems to work for other people.

    Parent

    Intolerance for difference of political opinion (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:41:54 PM EST
    has been strongly encouraged during the BushII reign of terror and seems to have become accepted as not only normal but the preferred way of thinking.

    Good people cannot disagree. Discussion of the reasoning behind the disagreement no longer can be tolerated. Labels such as traitor, un-american, racist, uneducated and low information are used to discount and stop any discussions and thereby, any hope for change or even accountability for politicians of either party. IMO the American people lose when these tactics are employed.

    I've decided that I am for my version of post partisanship. Instead of joining the Obama party or the PUMA party, I would prefer a TTBO  (Throw The Bums Out) party become the dominating party. Good people from both parties band together to throw out all politicians of either party who spend more time assimilating  power, catering to big business  and building campaign chests then actually enacting legislation that benefits real people. There needs to be more ONE term congresscritters until they get the message that they are employees and are expected to actually do more than campaign (interview) for their existing positions or pursue new more powerful political positions.  

    Parent

    This isn't about "intolerance" (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:24 PM EST
    She publicly announced her support for Senator McCain.  She had an opportunity for a protest vote at the convention, and blew it.  That's all this is.  

     People can disagree (good people and not so good people).  But this isn't about political disagreement, this is about a private political party.  She has no more right to serve as a delegate than Leiberman does.  She can cast her vote for McCain, but she made her intention known, and now, no, she doesn't get to be a delegate.  Pretty simple.

    Parent

    My comment was not about this particular (none / 0) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:02:42 AM EST
    event. It had to do with the political climate in general and how the American public loses with both parties.

    I could care less whether or not this individual gets to maintain her delegate status. I do care about the fact that IMO neither party does a very good job of representing real people. I do care about the fact that people vote against their principles by adhering to the meme that they are voting for the lesser of two evils.

    Parent

    I'm with you, but (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:08:10 AM EST
    neither you nor I are delegates to the DEMOCRATIC PARTY convention.

    I'm sympathetic to this lady, but she can't be a Dem. Party official, even a minor one, and publicly support a candidate from the opposition party.

    I could not be a delegate to the convention this year because I could not commit to supporting the winner if it's Obama.  You do have to give up a certain degree of independence if you decide to become a party functionary.  If you can't give that up, then you can't become a party official.

    Seems pretty simple and clear-cut to me.


    Parent

    I am not interested (2.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:21:01 PM EST
    in what is "offputting" to you.

    If you want a version of my position with less "fetish," see vastleft.

    Parent

    Geez, I've been saying this all (none / 0) (#116)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:31:23 AM EST
    day and to no avail. I hope if any of these young dems are parents, they do not teach their childrren that disrespecting others opinions is acceptable.

    Parent
    A little trouble in Florida (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:28:29 PM EST
    as well.

    Ausman is in conflict with the Obama Florida finance chair on delegates.

    Parent

    I've been (none / 0) (#57)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:40:50 PM EST
    reading about that for the last few days. Never email in anger people.

    Also, the Jefferson-Jackson dinner is this weekend. Guess who the Obama campaign is sending to represent them? Not Obama as he's busy. Clinton supporter Gov. Ed Rendell.

    Parent

    She said she would vote for Clinton at (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:01:40 AM EST
    the convention....that is all she needs to do...what she does after that, guess that is her business.  She can't be any worse than Lieberman and Zell Miller and no one kicked them to the curb.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#92)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:06:13 AM EST
    Lieberman had his superdelegate status stripped (possibly had to return the cape as well :D )for endorsing McCain and will not be at the convention. Well, to be clear, will not be at the Democratic convention.

    Parent
    That isn't 100% true (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:46:29 AM EST
    When Lieberman became an independent, he was no longer eligible to be a Democratic Superdelegat.

    But your story is more dramatic ;-).

    Parent

    Wow thanks. I wasn't even going for dramatic. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:08:16 AM EST
    My point is and was there are rules about endorsing the opposing parties candidate. The post I was responding to made a point that others who endorsed the Repub candidate were not kicked to the curb.

    So IF Lieberman was qualified as a superdelegate (I don't care enough to do research) once he endorsed McCain he would have been kicked to the curb.

    Info I read which apparently is wrong (darn press) Star Tribune

    The party revoked Lieberman's superdelegate privileges under what is known as the Zell Miller rule. Somewhat unbelievably, the Democrats faced a similar situation in 2004, when Miller of Georgia, then a sitting senator of their caucus, gave the keynote speech at the Republican convention.

    You'll find the rule that I quoted above does apply to Lieberman if he had or hadn't been already disqualified. Although if someone runs into him and actual kicks him, that might be ok too. (not an endorsement of violence just a joke)

    Parent

    Guessing that would be because (none / 0) (#103)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:18:29 AM EST
    Lieberman is no longer a democrat.  As an independent, I suppose he is free to support whomever.  The woman we are discussing IS a democrat, so she has the right to be at the dem convention.

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:41:04 AM EST
    Well this is from the DNC rules (emphasis added):

    Not later than March 1, 2008, the Secretary of the Democratic National Committee shall officially confirm to each State Democratic Chair the names of the following unpledged delegates who legally reside in their respective state and who shall be recognized as part of their state's delegation unless any such member has publicly expressed support for the election of, or has endorsed, a presidential candidate of another political party;

    Now that doesn't directly apply here because that is for unpledged delegates and I think this woman was pledged. But I would bet that there are pledged delegate rules, probably from the state party, which would include that.

    I'm a Dem and I don't have a right to be at the convention. I wouldn't have qualified and frankly wouldn't have ever been chosen. If they set up rules for being a delegate, then those rules apply to her.

    Lieberman is a registered Dem. Should he be allowed? Heck, if some other Dem leader who was an elected Dem endorsed McCain should they still allow them? It's not enough to be a Dem to be at the convention, you have to not endorse the other party's candidate. Heck she could have still voted McCain. She just couldn't go public with it.

    I just don't think they are being unreasonable with this.

    Parent

    Not if she's already (none / 0) (#150)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:45:18 AM EST
    declared she won't support the Dem. nominee.

    Look, you can be either an indepedent voter or a Dem. Pary functionary.   You can't be both, at least not publicly.

    And you know my opinion of St. Barack.

    Parent

    If she publicly endorses McCain (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:08:38 AM EST
    it is very much the party's business.

    Parent
    We will see how it works out. (none / 0) (#101)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:16:19 AM EST


    Parent
    If the DNC (none / 0) (#178)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:41:45 AM EST
    won't let her vote for Clinton at the convention then she should resign her delegate status and then announce her support for McCain.

    This is one of those rare occasions where I agree with the Obama supporters.

    In the end all this might not even matter since there are rumors that the convention may even be cancelled.

    Parent

    Only quibble (none / 0) (#180)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:01:06 AM EST
    Democratic officials never inquired into how she was going to vote.  She sold it as a publicity stunt.  She had the opportunity to go to the convention and support Clinton.  She chose to make it about a defect to McCain.

     The DNC has not forced anyone to vote for Obama at the convention.  Which makes this particularly absurd.  No one is arguing about her right to vote for the GOP. It is about her ability to join the convention as a delegate.

     As far as those rumors, haven't heard 'em.  

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:38:46 AM EST
    if Clinton's name isn't going to be on the ballot then they are taking that option away from her are they not?

    Parent
    Where did you hear that the (none / 0) (#181)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:20:14 AM EST
    convention might be cancelled?

    Parent
    It's a rumor (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:41:53 AM EST
    that's going around. I don't know how much truth there is to it but the DNC is obviously bankrupt. With donors defecting all over the place it's unlikely that the DNC will raise enough money to have the convention. They're already talking about cutting it to one day. Jeralyn posted above that the walkthrough in Denver has already been cancelled. There's also some rumors that instead of a convention, Obama is just going to have a kickoff rally in Chicago foregoing the convention.

    Parent
    Personally, the conventions of is all (none / 0) (#186)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:51:46 AM EST
    the last years have been showy and too glitzy, even for a hollywood girl like myself. Nothing like the old days. Why doesn't Obama just declare himself the winner, get his crown and septer and let's get on with it.

    Parent
    This story may cast some light (none / 0) (#193)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:34:59 PM EST
    on the subject. Apparently, Obama's fundraising ability doesn't extend to the DNC convention fund. They are looking at a $15 million shortfall for the convention. And Denver is worried they may have to pick up the tab. Ooops. Perhaps Senator Obama can tap into his fundraising lists to help them raise the money. Or maybe do a rally or a speech. Heh.

    Parent
    The convention is not being canceled (none / 0) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:06:52 PM EST
    It's the Denver Host Committee, not part of the DNC, that is raising money for the Convention. I write about this at 5280.com but you can check the Denver Post or the Rocky Mountain News for the latest.

    The Sunday night parties have been combined into one event to save money and the media walkthrough for next week has been postponed. It does seem like adjustments are being made, but funding wise, they are actually ahead of where Boston was at this point in time.

    Parent

    Nonsense. (none / 0) (#152)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:48:08 AM EST
    Sorry.  THe vote being counted is the vote for the Democratic Party nominee.

    Parent
    Rahm Emanuel says Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by masslib on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:54:35 PM EST
    holdouts really are not engaged in politics, and he expects them to sit home and knit:

    Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, a Democratic House leader who helped
    orchestrate the party's strategy for winning control of Congress in
    2006, argues against reading too much into the holdouts. He said most
    of them always stay out of national politics and that the party is
    generally unified around Obama.
    "They're just going to stick to their knitting," he said. "It's not
    that they're anti-Obama."

    http://www.wtop. com/?nid= 213&pid=0& sid=1420529& page=2

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Athena on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:56:36 PM EST
    Right.  OK, Rahm.

    Parent
    Even the men? What if we don't know (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:58:17 PM EST
    how to knit?

    Parent
    I am a woman (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:36:50 PM EST
    and have idea of how to knit either.  However, if I had a set of knitting needles and were anywhere near Rahm, I could figure out a good use for them.  

    Parent
    It's high time you learned, then. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:58:13 AM EST
    After which, you may teach me.

    Parent
    Oh Rahm You Manly Man (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:04:48 PM EST
    and so completely clueless about what may be motivating women this year.

    Women multitask very well. They can stay home and knit and still be anti-Obama.

    Oh and by the way sweetie Rahm, you are helping to ensure that women many will stay home whether they are into knitting or not.

     

    Parent

    Is it even correct to say that Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:06:37 PM EST
    problem is more with women?

    Parent
    I know more men who detest him (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:12:17 PM EST
    than women.  Women I know seem to be much more forgiving than the men who supported Hillary.  Men seem more willing to take the full leap and support McCain.


    Parent
    No. If you want to (5.00 / 9) (#33)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:15:25 PM EST
    give the worst possible motive to the Axelrove reasoning lines however, I would say they are trying to emasculate men who don't support Obama by only acknowledging women.

    Parent
    I totally agree, Lois. (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by masslib on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:23:58 PM EST


    Parent
    Spin Does Not Require Accuracy (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:19:24 PM EST
    What would be good from an Obama Party perspective is that it refrain from being completely stupid and counterproductive.

    No it is not correct that Obama's problem is mainly with women. Advocates like Rahm, could ensure that it escalates to the point that the women unwilling to vote for Obama becomes as strong as men unwilling to vote for Obama. A definite losing strategy  for November.  

    Parent

    Have you ever noticed Rahm has part of a (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:03:07 AM EST
    finger missing....just speculating, but he probably p!ssed off some nice lady and she bit it off.  :)

    Parent
    Is he calling us old? (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:21:36 AM EST
    My neighbor knits, she is in her 50's and won't vote for President. I don't knit. Am I suppose to knit because I am female or because I am over 45? I have to say though, all kidding aside, I don't think he meant it as a compliment. I like to dance and listen to Amy Whinehouse. How young do they want us? Actually, I think they believe that middle age and older people have experiences in life and know what is going on and are willing to speak up about it. Thus, we are not needed anymore.

    They just keep nailing that coffin.

    Parent

    Is 45 the magic age, now? (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:35:20 AM EST
    If so, then COOL... I'm not old <g> ;-)

    Parent
    I knitted when I was young (er) (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:50:00 AM EST
    Gave it up years ago.  What does that make me?


    Parent
    Let's knit a replacement for Rahm Imanuel (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:23:07 AM EST
    Knitting's not in my skill set but I'll donate my portion of wool to use for the brains.

    Parent
    Oooo Oooo (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:30:11 AM EST
    I can knit.  A Rahm replacement is an excellent idea.

    Far better than what I was sitting here thinking about, which was just what I could knit for Rahm.  I hadn't finished planning, but I'm pretty sure it was gonna involve Rahm needing a poison tester of his own.

    Parent

    Collaborate on a Crazy Quilt maybe? n/t (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:37:32 AM EST


    Parent
    I bet they aren't knitting (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:06:52 PM EST
    unity sock ponies.

    Parent
    I don't even know how to knit (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by janarchy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:10:22 PM EST
    and I've been engaged in national politics (at least some awareness about them) since I was five years old.

    They really don't know what they're dealing with, do they?

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 6) (#34)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:17:23 PM EST
    It's a good thing there is no sexism.

    Parent
    They really just can't help themselves, (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:20:12 PM EST
    can they?

    It's almost like they're daring me to vote for McCain.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    I quilt, actually (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:32:17 PM EST
    and I'm a permanent absentee voter.  So I have my quilts and my absentee ballot bubbles to keep me warm.

    Parent
    I don't how to knit but do know thatRahm's a twit (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:19:15 AM EST
    Honestly what a moronic thing to say for a Dem leader.

    No wait, what a totally normal thing for one to say.

    I thought this Unity Hopey Changey madness was about Unity Hope and Change.

    Better idiots please.
     

    Parent

    The 2006 election (none / 0) (#84)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:59:44 PM EST
    hardly needed a strategy for democrats winning. Rahm takes too much credit for his political savvy. I know I'm not doing any knitting, and I'll bet millions of Clinton supporters know exactly what they are going to be doing to let the DNC know they pushed an unqualified candidate on us against our very strong will.

    Parent
    What a moronic thing to say (none / 0) (#169)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:06:49 AM EST
    I love it.

    UNITY NOW!

    Parent

    Rahm (none / 0) (#179)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:44:02 AM EST
    desperately spinning again.

    Parent
    Hasn't changed her voting (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:41:09 PM EST
    habits in the Senate much, though.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#62)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:13 PM EST
    And generally speaking, I don't criticize her for that: she's got a heckuva needle to thread in the new Louisiana.

    Parent
    She does, but (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:58:40 PM EST
    IMHO she bends way, way over backwards to the serious detriment of her less advantaged constituents.  Some of her votes, like exempting chicken factory workers from OSHA standards, have been utterly disgraceful.

    Parent
    No question (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:04:07 AM EST
    She is a voting coward. I once watched her change a floor vote three times. It was one of the FISA votes.

    Parent
    Clinton delegate defects (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by facta non verba on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:47:37 PM EST
    You guys are going to love this story:

    Clinton Delegate Defects

    Obama has some problems.

    Caution Snark Ahead (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:59:13 PM EST
    Obama does not have a problem. This woman will soon take up knitting and leave national politics to those who care. So sayeth Rep. Rahm Emanuel. So sayeth we all.

    Parent
    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by stillife on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:45:04 AM EST
    Rahm's comment was sexist.  There's an expression, "Mind your own knitting" or something like that.  My husband uses it all the time, but then he's English.

    That said, hooray for that delegate!

    Parent

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by DJ on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:30:48 AM EST
    Thank you for the James Taylor song.  It is an almost religious experience, those lyrics and melody bring so many memories of my youth back to me and yet are still relevant to my present life.  This is a day, a weekend to reflect.

    Query: is BTD uncharacteristically silent (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:50:50 AM EST
    due to the adage, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?  

    Sadly, 'Fire and Rain' has literal relevance (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:58:39 AM EST
    Today, in passing, I read somewhere that California is on fire again. And upstream, Nellre linked to Digby who is quite distressed that we're seeing next to nothing about Iowa being "Under Water", massive flooding in Des Moines and Cedar Rapids. I've yet to see anything about it on TV today.

    HuffPo has a story on the front page but, strangely, they fail to report that Obama had scheduled an event in Cedar Rapids for Wednesday; but he decided to cancel in advance so as not to "divert resources". This reads like a morbid TONE DEAF echo of Bush and Brownie. How could the presumptive nominee pass up this opportunity to demonstrate how a real leader shows up before it's too late? We're hearing too little about the tragedy itself, and even less about the story within the story.

    Also, is it morbid for me to want to see (4.00 / 1) (#8)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:20:37 PM EST
    the last interview that Russert conducted this afternoon?

    Heck no (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:27:07 PM EST
    I think it should be considered a tribute. If you liked Russert, enjoy his new material one more time.

    Parent
    Just saw ont he news that (none / 0) (#16)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:36:23 PM EST
    Tim Russert was not feeling well for the final taping.  That was the perception of one of his colleagues.

    Parent
    He'd just last night (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:43 PM EST
    gotten off a plane from Italy.  He was no doubt tired and jet-lagged.

    If he died from a chunk of plaque breaking off and blocking the artery, as has been reported, there would be no warning at all, no "feeling unwell" for minutes or hours, never mind days, just boom.

    Parent

    Ok, have they announced who will (none / 0) (#2)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:15:15 PM EST
    replace Russert on an interim basis?

    Brokaw this Sunday (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:19:25 PM EST
    And my guess is for the foreseeable future. He's a familiar face with a connection to NBC and some time on his hands. I would not be surprised if he hosted through November.

    Parent
    I would like to see that. (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:21:55 PM EST


    Parent
    Me too (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:22:45 PM EST


    Parent
    no but Tom Brokaw (none / 0) (#6)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:18:33 PM EST
    will be doing a tribute on this sunday's MTP.

    Parent
    Here's something I think everyone (none / 0) (#41)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:23:40 PM EST
    can agree on.
    The national Press club invited THIS guy?!

    The NPC is for open for booking IIRC (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:25:50 PM EST
    More-or-less anyone can have an event there.

    Parent
    FDL has it badly wrong (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:35:04 PM EST
    and so did Digby, unless she's corrected it recently.

    The NPC rents out rooms in its building for events, and Sinclair rented one.  Their only relationship to him is cashing his check.

    FDL also says something about Sinclair claiming Obama "murdered his pastor," which is also horse^%$# as far as I'm aware.  Obviously, Obama's one and only pastor since he joined the church is very much alive and kicking.  The choirmaster at the church was murdered some years ago, though, which Sinclair has mentioned ominously but without really even hinting BO had anything to do with that, he's just floated it out there with no real context.

    So Sinclair "claims" absolutely nothing about people murdering people.

    FDL's post on this was absolutely disgraceful, IMHO.  A single phone call to the NPC and five minutes of Web research would have shown those two points to be totally false.

    Parent

    My bad. (none / 0) (#61)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:43:29 PM EST
    That is a terrible accusation to lay without any base (the accusation against the NPC, I mean. We already know LS is full of **)

    Parent
    for about 2 years, I've hardly gone to (none / 0) (#66)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:55 PM EST
    FDL. I thought the quality when steeply downhill when they expanded the author list, and I don't like the format either.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#67)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:45:28 PM EST
    All it takes is a quick google to confirm that LS has rented one of these rooms to hold his own press conference.  This does not mean anyone will attend to cover his press conference either.  I had read a little about him a couple of months ago and can't imagine why he thinks anyone will show more interest at the NPC than they have shown otherwise.  

    Parent
    NPC, even a rented room (none / 0) (#75)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:51:23 PM EST
    lends him an aura of respectability without having to earn it.  And obviously, a lot of people who should know better, like FDL and Digby, fell for it hook, line and sinker without questioning it.

    It's like hiring Carnegie Hall and then putting in your bio that you performed in Carnegie Hall (never mind six family members, three friends and a couple of street people were the sum total of your audience).

    Parent

    You can rent Carnegie Recital Hall (none / 0) (#85)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:00:35 AM EST
    no matter who you are, but not the main hall.

    Parent
    But you still have to practice. (none / 0) (#149)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:45:01 AM EST


    Parent
    Not true (none / 0) (#156)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:52:38 AM EST
    I've sung there with groups that were most definitely not invited.  Unless the rules have changed in the last, oh, four or five years, you can absolutely rent the main hall.

    Parent
    The ads in the NYT and Carnegie Hall (none / 0) (#157)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:54:26 AM EST
    brochures clearly differentiate between "Carnegie Hall Presents" and everything else.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#161)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:05:59 AM EST
    "Carnegie Hall Presents" is one thing.  Hiring the hall is another thing.  Same thing with every concert hall in the country.  They all have dark nights, might as well hire them out so they can pay the house crew.

    Parent
    Not pastor (none / 0) (#78)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:56:05 PM EST
    I think it was the organ player or choir director.

    It's so far out in left field that even if all his claims were true, no one would really believe him. Hard to figure out what motivates him to keep this crusade going.


    Parent

    Russert.... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:26:41 PM EST
    I watch MSNBC today as the GE big boss, Welch kept talking about how Russert worked so hard for the Company.  I remember years ago reading that Revlon said that corporations should use creative people like a lemon, squeeze them till all the juice is gone and throw them away.  

    Frankly, I wanted to scream at Welch, you used him and now he is dead, and you praise his over working and not taking care of his health.  I was no Russert fan and I still find him rather disturbing in how he fell in line and used his "skills" to attack on behalf of a corporate task master.  Where is ultimately the virtue of what he  did?  He was this kid he pulled himself up to these heights, but he was used.

    I am not prone to simplification of someone's life just because they die.  We all die.  It's not heroic to die.  It's life.  But how do we teach younger journalists from his life how to use their skills and how to keep from their corporate task masters sucking their life blood.  

    Respectfuly (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:39:55 PM EST
    I don't agree that Russert covered politics the way he did to satisfy his corporate masters.  I think he did it that way because that was his very conventional belief about what's important in politics.  Welch no doubt hired him for that reason, because that's the extent of his understanding of politics, and because Russert was an exceptionally personable and good-natured guy and wouldn't be likely to cause any trouble.

    If you hire the right people, you don't have to give them detailed daily marching orders.

    Parent

    1 must think like a hero 2b a merely decent human (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:51:49 AM EST
    When I'm discerning the words and actions of others I try to remember this quote by May Sarton: One must think like a hero to be a merely decent human being.

    Hey, I said I try to remember! (I'll cheerfully cop to being more in the cheap seats in that respect.)

    But now's not the time IMO to air grievances with Russert, though I agree with much of what Stellaaa said.

    In that respect, I remember the hard rule my own first and best mentor, my great grandfather, taught me the four lines our family never ever crosses,

    • a picket line
    • a wedding procession or train
    • a funeral line
    • great grandma's last nerve

    It's about taking a moment to respect passage as the opportunities to do so are rare, while the individual choice on the matter is pretty much ongoing.

    Parent
    Love your great-grandfather's rules (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:58:31 AM EST
    I never knew even a grandfather, they both died too young, so I'm envious.

    But the rule that's stuck with me very strongly is one that William Sloane Coffin said to me once: "Everybody thinke they're doing the right thing."

    Every time I get really angry at somebody, I try to remember that.

    I agree with you whole-heartedly that Russert didn't ever rise to the occasion, but that doesn't make him a conscious corporate lackey, it just makes him oblivious.

    Parent

    That certainly happens (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM EST
    but, from all that was said today, Russert worked the way he did because he really loved his job.

    Welch has been gone from GE for about 7 years. He is a better man than Immelt, his replacement. The head of the news division probably deserves a good scolding, though.

    The news was a shock, for sure. He was one of those people we just took for granted would be there when we turned on the TV. Certainly in the middle of election year, we were seeing him more regularly, and talking about him as though we knew him.

    I am devastated for his wife and son. They probably feel like they can't get home fast enough.

    Parent

    Well...I think that (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:12:50 AM EST
    that kind of stress and being driven has a toll on the human body that stress tests cannot tell.  I guess I should have described the story Welch told, about how Russert drove up at his request to Boston from NY, then drove back to NY to go to work and did not rest.  His over work was talked about as a virtue.  Well, frankly, I don't think it is, what do people prove these days with this over drive?  To what end?    

     I found Russert's role dubious to say the least.  Just read any of Somerby's columns.  The notion that death cleanses your actions, always amazed me.  You live your life cause you can die any minute.  

    Death happens to good and bad people.  It is tragic and sad.  But it's not heroic or should it be cleansing of your life's work or shortcomings.  I find it sort of strange how so many people react to death, it's like a shock that it happens to all of us.  

    Gee, just until very recently, he was pounding his political perspective, which to me is just corporatism at it's best.  He made money for NBC and they loved him for it.  He and all the insiders of the Nantucket or whatever that summer circuit is exert political power by their prestige.  They have influence.  Hanging out with Welch and Andrea Mitchell's husband, does take a toll on your perpsective.  They are your buds and your world.  That is the bottom line.  I did not like his style or perspective, and just because he died, I will not swoon.

    Sorry if it sounds crass at this time, but it's death.  Death is common, it happens to all of us.  We do not get sainted when we die.  All we get with death, is realize that we are just that, futile and human.  How common we all are.  So, better live your life with some friggin honesty and fortitude.  

    Parent

    You are correct (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:28:53 AM EST
    I honestly wasn't disagreeing with you. Just that Welch's experience with Russert on the job was when Russert was young enough to handle some of the added "commitment".

    I didn't, but would have if I had thought of it first, write the famous "no one on their death bed says, I wish I had spent more time at work."

    My beliefs on death are something I rarely share because to many they sound pretty cold, and to others they sound crazy.

    Parent

    I agree... (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:32:56 AM EST
    So, lets do what many people do when someone dies, drink a shot of something and realize that is that.  It's called a wake, and practically every culture has a version.  

    Parent
    I read that Russert (none / 0) (#65)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:49 PM EST
    had just passed a treadmill in April.  I also read that his doctor said that he'd have passed a treadmill yesterday.  He saw doctors...

    Russert probably had all the money he needed.  If he felt he was doing too much he could have quit.  Some people thrive on fame.

    Parent

    I'm honestly not even sure (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:57:11 PM EST
    he worked himself brutally hard.  Colleagues on MSNBC kept talking about how important family was to him and that he was always scolding younger colleagues for working too hard and chasing them out of the office to go spend time with their families instead of working.  The sense I got from what they were saying is that although he surely worked hard, he wasn't one of those obsessed people who put that above everything and subject themselves to enormous stress as a result.

    Plus, he was at the very top of his profession and had no real competition, and he clearly just loved what he was doing.  So how much actual stress he was under isn't clear to me at all. Working hard isn't automatically stressful.  It's working hard without feeling like you have much control, and that certainly wasn't the case with Russert.

    Parent

    Actually, I misquoted the doc (none / 0) (#160)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:59:34 AM EST
    He didn't say he would have passed a treadmill test last night, he said he would have passed it an hour before he died.

    Parent
    Thanks, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#98)
    by Cal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:12:25 AM EST
    Perfect.

    Thanks for this (none / 0) (#111)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:24:26 AM EST
    I haven't been reading Salon as thoroughly and as frequently as I used to and had missed this review. Definitely one for the library.

    Here's something (none / 0) (#117)
    by k on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:31:31 AM EST
    out of left field...my moon is red. I've never seen anything like it. It's a little freaky. I'm 100% drug and alchohol free and, still...my moon is red.

    Is your moon red? Have the end times begun?

    uuuhhhhh .... (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by waldenpond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:04:11 AM EST
    well, no, my moon is fine.  But then I've been drinking so I could be seeing things....

    The only time my moon was red is when we had huge forest fires and the smoke was covering a couple of counties.  It was great and sad at the same time.

    Parent

    Yay (none / 0) (#142)
    by k on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:19:13 AM EST
    All is well then, thanks.

    I thought fires might be the cause...there are several but they are quite a bit north. I've been in the vicinity of fires before, huge forest fires, but this is the first time my moon turned red. No smoke here either so I wasn't sure.

    It really is a bizarre sight.

    Parent

    The moon is red when (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:59:03 PM EST
    it rises in eclipse. So if the fires are putting a lot of smoke in the atmosphere, even if they are distant, it would have the same effect as the earth's shadow, ie. make the moon look red. That's my theory, for what it's worth. The National Weather Service says the same thing..
    " A red moon means there is a high concentration of particles in the air, such as dust and smoke. These particles "scatter" away the short and intermediate wavelengths of light (violet, blue and yellow), leaving only the longer wavelengths (orange and red) to reach our eyes. A red moon does not mean there is a change coming in the weather.


    Parent
    I've said it once before that I (none / 0) (#123)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:40:09 AM EST
    believe Katrina had a lot to do with this election season.

    Oops, posting again (none / 0) (#125)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:40:35 AM EST
    and you can delete my post with the skewed link:

    Lately, scientists are thinking that lowering cholesterol artificially via statin drugs may not help much with heart attack risk.  
    Here's an article describing what I'm talking about:
    Link

    Warning, there is talk in this article about "the Math" ;-).  (Doesn't pertain to elections, though.)


    This is not true of all statin drugs though. (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:04:51 AM EST


    Parent
    I think it can be (none / 0) (#185)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:42:20 AM EST
    applied to all....They all work in very similar fashion.

    Parent
    MLB may use instant replay (none / 0) (#144)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:19:42 AM EST
    by August.  Now that's news!

    Warning: link is to Huffington Post:

    MLB

    Obama's "Fight the Smears" website... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Grace on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:27:27 AM EST
    Has anyone else had the same evil thoughts I've had?

    What would happen if you just created a ton of smears, and then waited for Obama's website to refute them?

    What happens if Obama's website doesn't refute them?  (Well, I guess the rumor is true.)

    If Obama does refute the rumor, then you don't go with that particular rumor and you need to create another one.  

    It seems so simple to me.  

    It also seems like this "Fight the Smears" website idea was created by someone in Junior High School.  It's really the stupidest idea I've heard of in a long time.  As far as I'm concerned, any rumor Obama doesn't refute is probably true -- cuz if it were false, he'd be refuting it!    

    PracLact, I hope these latest Rove/Katrina (none / 0) (#165)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:23:04 AM EST
    revelations make it onto the Sunday talk shows; especially in view of the ongoing flooding in the upper-midwest this week. Rain forecast continues into the weekend.

    Dailyhowler took the Friday post down (none / 0) (#176)
    by gish720 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:00:30 AM EST
    due to Tim Russert's death, it was a very good post nevertheless. I was sorry to see him take it down, but I certainly understand why he did so...Somerby mentioned the interview with Mark Penn in GQ which I  haven't had the chance to read as of yet.  I did read a very good piece by Gene Lyons called It's Not Tough to Be Stupid. In it he addresses some of the possible attacks against Obama the Clintons wouldn't go near.  The Republicans no doubt will use these incidents in Obama's life to their advantage.

    And the Obama supporters will (none / 0) (#195)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:11:52 PM EST
    blame Hillary..
    Republican TV ads depicting Hillary Clinton calling Obama "naïve" are merely the opening gambit.

    She is right. But when Obama loses the GE, it will be her fault, not his. Funny how politics works, isn't it?? And when he loses, the DNC is going to go even deeper into debt moving back to DC. Heh.

    This election season is looking more and more like some weird, surreal soap opera. And trying to pin down Obama's position on anything is like playing "Whack-a-mole", just when you think you've got it, it changes holes.

    Parent

    New subject: Rhubarb (none / 0) (#188)
    by DFLer on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:06:06 AM EST
    Tis the season. Yeah!

    Who cannot love a plant named after barbarians!

    Favorite dishes:
    rhubarb pie (no strawberries please)
    rhubarb crunch (many different names) - the kind with an oatmeal topping.
    rhubarb jam or jelly
    Hey! Plain old rhubarb sauce: a cup of cut rhubarb, a cup of sugar - cook in a sauce pan.- great stuff.

    All rhubarb dishes go great with vanilla ice cream.

    Now that I've worked myself up, I'm going out to cut some stalks from my neighbor's plants.

    Late Night: Fire and Rain | 180 comments (180 topical)

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