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Late Night: Fire and Rain

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:07:02 PM EST
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According to Tim Russert's son Luke, his dad's favorite music was what Russert called "geezer rock" and included “Springsteen, Fogerty, Van Morrison and James Taylor.”

Watching the media coverage tonight, you can't help but feel touched by how much his colleagues respected him and will miss him. This is for them.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Late Night: Fire and Rain | 183 comments (183 topical)

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    Hopefully, it won't take long for his (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:12:59 PM EST
    colleagues to come to grips with their loss and know Russert would want them to move on and make him proud.

    Can't remember who (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:15:34 PM EST
    told the story but one of his friends said Tim had always wanted to get Springsteen on MTP.  Tim was proud that he had booked Springsteen, before he became the rock star, for a concert at his college.  The two were supposed to have been good friends.  

    yes I just read an obit (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:18:02 PM EST
    that said Springsteen would "receive him" backstage at his concerts.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm thinking about death now, which (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:18:06 PM EST
    is bad.

    In my family, I have at least two great grandfathers who died more-or-less how Russert did (i.e. around 60 of a cardiac incident, and with too many pounds on the waistline). I find myself taking a second look at everything I'm eating this evening--that's something I should always do of course. . .

    Frankly....I know lots about death (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:33:15 PM EST
    I know it's hard for those left behind when someone dies like that, but in so many ways, just a clean no suffering way, is sort of what people wish for all the time.  

     Years ago I heard someone say, each family gets a few good clean deaths, everyone else gets to suffer and have long prolonged painful deaths.  

    It's not the pounds, it's the stress and the pounds.  We create a self imposed contineous state of stress.  It's not normal.  The predators did not attack us all the time.  They took breaks.  Now we are on constant over zealous fear over load.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well, what about saying goodbye? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:35:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Well, yeah that is hard (none / 0) (#55)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:38:57 PM EST
    but most people waste it.  But it was his death.  It's not about the others.  Frankly, when I saw him during the primaries, he was looking really bad.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'd agree people waste it, from my (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:41:42 PM EST
    experience. If I think about my own death, though, I'd like the chance to see people, even if I was in pain.


    [ Parent ]
    I've Had Both Of My Parents Die After Extended (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:52:17 PM EST
    illnesses. Watched them as they and their lives deteriorated day by day for over a year until they became a shell of their normal shelves.

    Death of a love one is never easy but long term illnesses do not necessarily mean that family members become accepting of the loss or that long held issues are resolved. If given a choice, I would prefer to go quickly.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh yes, I know that from my own family. (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:58:49 PM EST
    If there was a "best" experience with a dying friend, it was when a friend with HIV developed pneumonia and went very quickly.  But in his case, I felt like I got to say goodbye. He was one of the strongest-willed people I had ever met, and I think he was able to just give up  when he finally became seriously ill, instead of lingering.

    [ Parent ]
    Far more important (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:46:42 PM EST
    to get your cholesterol levels checked regularly, even starting at your age because of your family history, and take cholesterol-lowering drugs if necessary.

    Diet won't help you one bit if you have the kind of cholesterol that doesn't respond to diet, as many do.

    [ Parent ]

    Good point (none / 0) (#80)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:57:56 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Dr Agaston, the South Beach doctor (none / 0) (#96)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:09:30 AM EST
    has an excellent book out about heart health. He's a heart specialist, not a dietician. He partnered with a dietician for the eating style for heart health.

    It's always best to establish good habits young.

    [ Parent ]

    Is there a diet which is healthy for (none / 0) (#110)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:23:38 AM EST
    everyone ---or healthier than other options?
    Or do genetics matter in that too?

    [ Parent ]
    One size fits all? (none / 0) (#124)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:40:28 AM EST
    South Beach is a very healthy way to eat for everyone, except I personally don't think it allows enough Omega fatty acids.

    If you can afford it, Perricone has the best diet for both health and retarding the aging process :) JMHO

    [ Parent ]

    Mmmmm....fish! (none / 0) (#131)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:52:26 AM EST
    I keep meaning to check out exactly what he says, but you can't go wrong with quality fish and quality olive oil. And dark leafy greens and cruciferous (however you spell that) veggies.

    And artichokes. Apparently artichokes are some kind of wonder food.

    [ Parent ]

    really? I like artichokes, but they are a bother (none / 0) (#143)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:19:14 AM EST
    to cook and eat.
    I wonder if artichoke hearts stored in brine are good for you.

    [ Parent ]
    They have them frozen here. (none / 0) (#146)
    by LoisInCo on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:23 AM EST
    (Hearts only)

    [ Parent ]
    Gee, they're about the least (none / 0) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:36:15 AM EST
    bothersome to cook.  Throw 'em in boiling water for half an hour.  What's complicated about that?

    As for eating, peel off a leaf, dip it in something delicious, put it in your mouth, scrape off the good stuff with your teeth.  Eh?

    Lots of stuff to discard, true, but if you have any kind of a yard, it's great for composting.

    [ Parent ]

    My grandfather used to say (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:13:07 PM EST
    that when you eat an artichoke, you have more left over than you had when you started. He used to joke it was some sort of contradiction to a natural law. My interpretation of that is that an artichoke is the vegetable version of the TARDIS. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    In the Jewish ghetto in Rome, one of (none / 0) (#148)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:41:43 AM EST
    the specialties is fried artichoke.  Really melts in your mouth.

    [ Parent ]
    Mmm (none / 0) (#177)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:22:50 AM EST
    that sounds absolutely wonderful. Are they baby artichokes that the use? Or do they use the mature ones and you have to eat it by pulling off each leaf?

    [ Parent ]
    Softball size. You eat everything. (none / 0) (#196)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:01:17 PM EST
    [Probably not so good for cholestrol though.]

    [ Parent ]
    Stupid artichoke (and veggie) trick (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:06:46 AM EST
    When I'm cooking almost anything that requires boiling water, I always steam veggies whether I need them immediately or not.

    Then I just bag them and put them in the fridge for salads, snacks, sammys, for packing a lunch or for other dishes.

    Cuts down on cooking time too if you're grilling or making a stir fry.

    I LOVE artichokes every which way: stuffed, grilled, on pizza or as an appetizer (lemon and olive oil).

    Chinese Cloud Ear or Elephant Ear (Mok yee) mushrooms -- the black strings you get in Hot and Sour Soup or Kung Pau -- are also excellent for circulation and clot prevention. They absorb the "neighbor" flavors of the dish so you can use them undetectably if you don't like their innate subtle smoky flavor.

    [ Parent ]

    DASH diet is easy, effective, recc'd by experts (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:51:33 AM EST
    The DASH diet lowers blood pressure, chol, maintains healthy weight, is flexible and easy to follow and doesn't sign you onto an expensive plan.

    It was created for life and health, not profit, so it's not one of those deals where you get thin for a month but your wallet starves forever.

    http://dash.org

    [ Parent ]

    That should be (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:55:43 AM EST
    dashdiet dot org.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh yes, I've looked at that before (none / 0) (#132)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:53:46 AM EST
    (not that I remember the details).
    I was just looking a a Glycemic Index table.
    Now I know why a doctor friend of mine calls white rice "white death"---it's at the top of the chart!

    [ Parent ]
    White rice (none / 0) (#168)
    by cloudy on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:01:15 AM EST
    Being half Japanese white rice was a staple in my household growing up.  I had to learn to like brown rice.  A good way to figure GI is by how refined the sugars are.  I love carbs so I've learned to cook with whole wheat flours, brown rice and unrefined sugars (honey, agave nectar, etc).  It's a lot of trail and error.  I'm still trying to get used to whole wheat pasta.  It's too chewy.

    [ Parent ]
    ed Dashdiet dot org Free, effective, flexible n/t (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:00:34 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Genetics matter but (none / 0) (#167)
    by cloudy on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:51:12 AM EST
    I'm a strong believer in natural, whole foods, especially after reading The Omnivore's Dilemma.  We eat too much processed food in America.  

    [ Parent ]
    Genetics matter a lot. (none / 0) (#173)
    by Fabian on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 05:23:24 AM EST
    So does the amount of exercise you get.  One polar expedition had its members eating some insane amount of butter.  (Fat calories weigh less.)  They drew blood samples during the trek and the test results showed nothing out of the ordinary.  Their bodies  burned the fat and cholesterol for energy.  Most of us don't have that level of physical exertion.

    In general
    Eat your fruits and veggies.
    Don't spike your blood sugar.      
    As my son would say "That's a treat, right?".  Our bodies are not built to deal with high carb loads and every time you do that, it stresses the system.
    Stay away from the Bad Fats - hydrogenated or highly saturated.
    Read the labels.  You can get tortilla chips fried in hydrogenated shortening or in vegetable oil.  You want oil, not shortening.
    Protein is great, but you don't need a ton of it.

    And always pay attention to your body.  We are so genetically diverse that what works great for one person is a disaster for another.  I love my dairy.  A glucose intolerant person may drink soy milk instead.  I'm soy intolerant, so soy milk is NOT for me!  

    Know what works for you and what you need to work on.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess this means... (none / 0) (#174)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 05:28:36 AM EST
    ...my current diet of nicotine and coffee products is out, eh?  

     Alas...

    [ Parent ]

    I hope you don't have hypertension! (none / 0) (#175)
    by Fabian on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 06:02:27 AM EST
    One fun thing to do is to research the actual effects of our OTC drugs.  Caffeine is used to regulate the heartbeat of newborns.  No kidding - it's an actual prescribed drug.  Stimulant - ups the heart rate, raises the blood pressure, acts as a diuretic and it also messes with insulin and blood sugar.  Fortunately, it's not addictive.

    And good old nicotine - a nerve toxin.  I remember one guy remembering harvesting tobacco in his youth.  It was very hot out in the fields and the old hands were covered head to toe, hat, long sleeves, long pants and gloves.  Our narrator didn't see why they wore all that clothing, so even though they warned him against it, he worked in short sleeves and short pants.  He was feeling pretty sick after a few hours as his sweaty skin absorbed more and more nicotine.  

    [ Parent ]

    Go google! (none / 0) (#189)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 11:51:43 AM EST
    "Caffeine is highly addictive."

    [ Parent ]
    My brother was praising the (none / 0) (#112)
    by MarkL on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:27:01 AM EST
    views of Gary Taubes when we met a couple of months ago. He's on a super low carbohydrate diet now. I couldn't do it. I know Taubes is not a doctor, and his book got savaged in some reviews I read.


    [ Parent ]
    Taylor in concert... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:26:25 PM EST
    ...is beautiful. I've seen him twice, and it was wonderful. His voice has faded from the glory days of his youth, but his soul shines through just like it always did. I kind of like it, because I can't sing along with his old recordings - I have pretty good range but I can't match him. Now... he's an extremely talented musician and he adjusts things so he never misses a note. And I think in many ways he's gotten better. There is more depth, if that's possible. I highly recommend the experience.

    I have tickets to see (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:17:56 PM EST
    Taylor at the Berkeley Greek theater on June 27th...cannot wait.  He really evokes so many memories.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's better than memories (none / 0) (#100)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:14:05 AM EST
    He has an almost magical presence. He's very quiet, and calm. I have a hard time imagining him angry. The times we saw him, he had secondary bands, younger people he was obviously promoting, but he sang a lot. I think that if there was one ceelbrity I would like to meet, it would be him.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't realize until I was watching (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:26:52 PM EST
    the news tonight that Russert's wife and son were still in Europe - apparently Tim came back by himself.  I was sort of horrified thinking about what it must have been like for them being hours and hours away when this happened.

    I may not have been the biggest Russert fan - I'd pretty much given up on MTP - got tired of the very biased pundit panels, for one - but clearly this was a man who loved his family deeply, was loved and respected by his colleagues, and the grief etched onto the faces of those colleagues touched me.

    Life is short - Russert's life may have been too short, but we should all be as lucky as he was to be doing what we love.

    I had the same thought (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:28:59 PM EST
    My mom used to spend a week a month in London, and I would have nightmares about getting that phone call.

    [ Parent ]
    Why? (none / 0) (#97)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:12:07 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "Why" what? (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:17:03 AM EST
    She was far away, and that alone was unnerving. It wasn't entirely rational, but nightmares never are.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay (none / 0) (#190)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    I thought maybe she had a risky job and your answer would be interesting.

    [ Parent ]
    I liked Tim Russert a lot (none / 0) (#139)
    by Grace on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:08:52 AM EST
    and I liked MTP.  

    I just can't get over how much coverage there is of his death today.  Most people on TV would just get a small mention in the news (look at the coverage of John Ritter's death for comparison).  It's blowing me away that this is completely dominating the news cycle.  

    I keep thinking that someone is going to proclaim tomorrow a "national day of mourning."  


    [ Parent ]

    way over the top! (none / 0) (#187)
    by hellothere on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 09:00:28 AM EST
    i am amazing at how they keep saying the same thing over and over. we understand he enjoyed his work, loved his family and church. he was a decent man who died too early. but you keep saying it over and over and over for what i now nearly 24 hours of straight programing, then that gets real old unfortunately.

    [ Parent ]
    Springsteen and his dad (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by ap in avl on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:36:00 PM EST
    Can't help but think about "Independence Day" and the eloquent description of the relationship between a young man and his father.  Then I think about Tim Russert's relationship with Big Russ and wonder about how Springsteen's music resonated with him.  

    There is quite a journey that a young man takes as he makes peace with his father.  Both of these men were able to express how their early disillusionment with their fathers changed into respect and appreciation for their sacrifices.

    My thoughts will be with the Russert family this Father's Day.

    Digby (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by nellre on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:41:32 PM EST
    scroll down
    Nobody Did Nothin'

    More deaths to mourn today... (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 02:17:19 AM EST
    Nellre, just pulled this from HuffPo about the flooding in the Upper Mid-West:

    At least 438 city blocks in downtown Cedar Rapids were under water...one man was killed in southern Minnesota after his car plunged from a washed-out road into floodwaters..

    Just southeast of Grand Rapids, Mich., crews pulled the body of a motorist from a car found drifting in the swollen Thornapple River...the 57-year-old man called on his cell phone but didn't say what happened or where he was; they found him using global positioning equipment.

    Condolences to the bereaved and hoping the best for all those still in danger.


    [ Parent ]

    And (none / 0) (#47)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:31:40 PM EST
    nobody tells them about it like Digby.  Thanks for the link!

    [ Parent ]
    On another topic, Clinton delegate (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:50:08 PM EST
    from Wisconsin wants a chance to vote for Clinton at the convention and threatens to vote for McCain, so angry is she about the behavior of the DNC.  

    Now the state party is asking the DNC to not accept the delegate's credentials at the convention.  Are these rules or roolz? :-)

    Stories on this are at jsonline.com; sorry I can't make cut and paste work on a borrowed computer.  I'm at a conference of women historians, the major conference in the field -- and this dismal campaign and the treatment of a woman candidate, and all women, comes up often in sessions on tangentially related topics.  And tomorrow is a special late-added session on "historic candidates."  

    Info (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Athena on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:55:11 PM EST
    I'd be interested to hear more about the reactions of these historians to the recent primary events.

    [ Parent ]
    I've read that she has committed to voting (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:58:00 PM EST
    for McCain. I sure think she should be denied convention credentials. Same as Joe Lieberman.

    If she really wanted to make a statement, she could have voted for Hillary at the convention--no one could have stopped her. But she's f'ed up her chance. And really, can you blame the state party for trying to keep her out?  

    [ Parent ]

    Indeed. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:05:01 PM EST
    Let's just burn the heretics (eye roll).

    [ Parent ]
    Um, no (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:19:58 PM EST
    but if you publicly endorse a Republican, you should not be given the opportunity to have a platform at the Democratic National Convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow, did you not read it? (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by TheViking on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:44:36 PM EST
    She/he said WOULD vote is she was NOT allow to cast her vote...

    Boy has Talk Left turned into a kiss-ass Obama joint. Sad really.

    Good luck with your UNITY!!! Woohooo!!!!

    [ Parent ]

    I read it (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:49:59 PM EST
    And that isn't what that article someone linked below said. It had this:

    But Bartoshevich told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, as reported on its Web site Friday, that Clinton was treated unfairly by the party and she has deep reservations about Obama's experience, so she'll vote for McCain.
    ...
    Bartoshevich, 41, told the Journal Sentinel she would vote for Clinton at the convention and then McCain in November.

    "I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters," she said.

    Maybe we're all talking about different people.

    [ Parent ]

    I can't parse what you're saying (none / 0) (#72)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:15 PM EST
    but I'd like to point you to the news article I read:

    Bartoshevich, 41, told the Journal Sentinel she would vote for Clinton at the convention and then McCain in November.

    "I just feel you need to have somebody who has experience with foreign matters," she said.

    She said she got a call from McCain's campaign after she signed up with "Citizens for McCain," encouraged by her sister who has served in Iraq. The Journal Sentinel said the McCain campaign gave her name to a reporter.

    Now explain to me why the Democratic party should allow her credentials to the convention?


    [ Parent ]

    Because she is a delegate for Clnton (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:20:49 AM EST
    Because this woman is exaclty the kind of person they want to get back. Rejecting her from placing her ballot at the convention will not help Obaam. It will simply cement the notion that they won't vote for Obama.

    If the DNC were really smart, they'd let the Democrats for McCain have a table and let them hand out free buttons. That way, every time someone runs into one of them in the hallway they can welcome them to the convention and, hopefully, change their minds about voting for McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    While (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:33:03 PM EST
    I get that there are plenty of people upset by the treatment Clinton has received this primary season (and I REALLY get it), the Dems should not allow delegates that have publicly come out for the Repub candidate. So I have no problem with them dropping her like a hot potatoe (spelled that way for the memories).

    But that said, the Dems need to recognize this very real problem and start dealing with it. And that this lady again emphasized the problem makes me happy she has made the stand she has. One need only read that Emanuel quote in this same thread to see that at least some Dems in power still don't get it.

    [ Parent ]

    Your fetish for D after a candidate's name (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:14:41 PM EST
    is offputting to say the least.  Since when have the young been so judgmental and intolerant of other views?


    [ Parent ]
    Study aid (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:22:33 PM EST
    It's a DEMOCRATIC PARTY convention.  It's for Democrats to decide the Democratic nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    She is a Democrat (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:22:11 AM EST
    And she has a role in deciding the Democratic nominee. That doesn't mean that they has to vote for him. There isn't a membership oath. Well, there is in some states, but I'm not sure if it's  binding.

    [ Parent ]
    Correction... (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:51:00 AM EST
    ...she had her role. She got to vote in the primaries.

     That was her role. Now she no longer supports the presumptive Democratic nominee.  She is in the position she is in because she made that public.  

     This isn't remotely controversial.  Imagine a disgruntled Dean supporter threatening the same thing in 2004.  It would have been ridiculous then, it is ridiculous now.

    [ Parent ]

    Look up the meaning of PRESUMPTIVE (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:09:08 AM EST
    Now she no longer supports the presumptive Democratic nominee

    Obama is not the official nominee, nor is he entitled to claim that.

    He's done more to pander to Republicans and harm Dems. His whole schtick is based on kissing GOP @ss -- and there's a boatload of that with their pants down already.

    Maybe Obama should be banned from the DEMOCRATIC convention.

    [ Parent ]

    No, he's not... (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:48:04 AM EST
    ...and if she wanted to go to the convention and support Senator Clinton, she could have.  She came out for McCain and blew it.

     Case closed.

    [ Parent ]

    Until he's the official candidate he's presumptive (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:25:46 AM EST
    The delegates have to sanction him formally.

    [ Parent ]
    No disagreement there (none / 0) (#171)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:27:37 AM EST
    Please re-read. This has nothing to do with Senator Obama's status, and everything to do with public support of Senator McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    There is a required pledge to support the nominee (none / 0) (#141)
    by FemB4dem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:13:08 AM EST
    no matter who you are elected to support as a delegate.  I knew I couldn't so pledge, so I'm not a delegate.  Is the pledge legally binding?  Probably not.  Morally binding was the issue for me.

    I must say, though, that this loyalty oath was yet another thing that forced me to leave the party all together.  I understand what those of you are saying about the right of the party to have its rules, but this just smacks too much of McCarthyism for my taste.  Does anyone know if this pledge requirement is something new courtesy of Dr. Dean?  Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe the pledge is more like the Abstinence one (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 03:29:30 AM EST
    There's a lot of screwing around, no one actually enjoys themselves and a whole lot of shotgun weddings take place to cover up the mess.

    There ya go ... just another solid Republican idea that Obama and his kingmakers are solidly behind!

    [ Parent ]

    Can't she say (none / 0) (#182)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:23:23 AM EST
    she was for him before she was against him, and get a pass on that?

    Seems to work for other people.

    [ Parent ]

    Intolerance for difference of political opinion (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:41:54 PM EST
    has been strongly encouraged during the BushII reign of terror and seems to have become accepted as not only normal but the preferred way of thinking.

    Good people cannot disagree. Discussion of the reasoning behind the disagreement no longer can be tolerated. Labels such as traitor, un-american, racist, uneducated and low information are used to discount and stop any discussions and thereby, any hope for change or even accountability for politicians of either party. IMO the American people lose when these tactics are employed.

    I've decided that I am for my version of post partisanship. Instead of joining the Obama party or the PUMA party, I would prefer a TTBO  (Throw The Bums Out) party become the dominating party. Good people from both parties band together to throw out all politicians of either party who spend more time assimilating  power, catering to big business  and building campaign chests then actually enacting legislation that benefits real people. There needs to be more ONE term congresscritters until they get the message that they are employees and are expected to actually do more than campaign (interview) for their existing positions or pursue new more powerful political positions.  

    [ Parent ]

    This isn't about "intolerance" (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Alec82 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:50:24 PM EST
    She publicly announced her support for Senator McCain.  She had an opportunity for a protest vote at the convention, and blew it.  That's all this is.  

     People can disagree (good people and not so good people).  But this isn't about political disagreement, this is about a private political party.  She has no more right to serve as a delegate than Leiberman does.  She can cast her vote for McCain, but she made her intention known, and now, no, she doesn't get to be a delegate.  Pretty simple.

    [ Parent ]

    My comment was not about this particular (none / 0) (#87)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:02:42 AM EST
    event. It had to do with the political climate in general and how the American public loses with both parties.

    I could care less whether or not this individual gets to maintain her delegate status. I do care about the fact that IMO neither party does a very good job of representing real people. I do care about the fact that people vote against their principles by adhering to the meme that they are voting for the lesser of two evils.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm with you, but (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:08:10 AM EST
    neither you nor I are delegates to the DEMOCRATIC PARTY convention.

    I'm sympathetic to this lady, but she can't be a Dem. Party official, even a minor one, and publicly support a candidate from the opposition party.

    I could not be a delegate to the convention this year because I could not commit to supporting the winner if it's Obama.  You do have to give up a certain degree of independence if you decide to become a party functionary.  If you can't give that up, then you can't become a party official.

    Seems pretty simple and clear-cut to me.


    [ Parent ]

    I am not interested (2.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:21:01 PM EST
    in what is "offputting" to you.

    If you want a version of my position with less "fetish," see vastleft.

    [ Parent ]

    Geez, I've been saying this all (none / 0) (#116)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:31:23 AM EST
    day and to no avail. I hope if any of these young dems are parents, they do not teach their childrren that disrespecting others opinions is acceptable.

    [ Parent ]
    A little trouble in Florida (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:28:29 PM EST
    as well.

    Ausman is in conflict with the Obama Florida finance chair on delegates.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been (none / 0) (#57)
    by Step Beyond on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:40:50 PM EST
    reading about that for the last few days. Never email in anger people.

    Also, the Jefferson-Jackson dinner is this weekend. Guess who the Obama campaign is sending to represent them? Not Obama as he's busy. Clinton supporter Gov. Ed Rendell.

    [ Parent ]

    She said she would vote for Clinton at (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:01:40 AM EST
    the convention....that is all she needs to do...what she does after that, guess that is her business.  She can't be any worse than Lieberman and Zell Miller and no one kicked them to the curb.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually (none / 0) (#92)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:06:13 AM EST
    Lieberman had his superdelegate status stripped (possibly had to return the cape as well :D )for endorsing McCain and will not be at the convention. Well, to be clear, will not be at the Democratic convention.

    [ Parent ]
    That isn't 100% true (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:46:29 AM EST
    When Lieberman became an independent, he was no longer eligible to be a Democratic Superdelegat.

    But your story is more dramatic ;-).

    [ Parent ]

    Wow thanks. I wasn't even going for dramatic. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:08:16 AM EST
    My point is and was there are rules about endorsing the opposing parties candidate. The post I was responding to made a point that others who endorsed the Repub candidate were not kicked to the curb.

    So IF Lieberman was qualified as a superdelegate (I don't care enough to do research) once he endorsed McCain he would have been kicked to the curb.

    Info I read which apparently is wrong (darn press) Star Tribune

    The party revoked Lieberman's superdelegate privileges under what is known as the Zell Miller rule. Somewhat unbelievably, the Democrats faced a similar situation in 2004, when Miller of Georgia, then a sitting senator of their caucus, gave the keynote speech at the Republican convention.

    You'll find the rule that I quoted above does apply to Lieberman if he had or hadn't been already disqualified. Although if someone runs into him and actual kicks him, that might be ok too. (not an endorsement of violence just a joke)

    [ Parent ]

    Guessing that would be because (none / 0) (#103)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:18:29 AM EST
    Lieberman is no longer a democrat.  As an independent, I suppose he is free to support whomever.  The woman we are discussing IS a democrat, so she has the right to be at the dem convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Step Beyond on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:41:04 AM EST
    Well this is from the DNC rules (emphasis added):

    Not later than March 1, 2008, the Secretary of the Democratic National Committee shall officially confirm to each State Democratic Chair the names of the following unpledged delegates who legally reside in their respective state and who shall be recognized as part of their state's delegation unless any such member has publicly expressed support for the election of, or has endorsed, a presidential candidate of another political party;

    Now that doesn't directly apply here because that is for unpledged delegates and I think this woman was pledged. But I would bet that there are pledged delegate rules, probably from the state party, which would include that.

    I'm a Dem and I don't have a right to be at the convention. I wouldn't have qualified and frankly wouldn't have ever been chosen. If they set up rules for being a delegate, then those rules apply to her.

    Lieberman is a registered Dem. Should he be allowed? Heck, if some other Dem leader who was an elected Dem endorsed McCain should they still allow them? It's not enough to be a Dem to be at the convention, you have to not endorse the other party's candidate. Heck she could have still voted McCain. She just couldn't go public with it.

    I just don't think they are being unreasonable with this.

    [ Parent ]

    Not if she's already (none / 0) (#150)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:45:18 AM EST
    declared she won't support the Dem. nominee.

    Look, you can be either an indepedent voter or a Dem. Pary functionary.   You can't be both, at least not publicly.

    And you know my opinion of St. Barack.

    [ Parent ]

    If she publicly endorses McCain (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:08:38 AM EST
    it is very much the party's business.

    [ Parent ]
    We will see how it works out. (none / 0) (#101)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:16:19 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If the DNC (none / 0) (#178)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 07:41:45 AM EST
    won't let her vote for Clinton at the convention then she should resign her delegate status and then announce her support for McCain.

    This is one of those rare occasions where I agree with the Obama supporters.

    In the end all this might not even matter since there are rumors that the convention may even be cancelled.

    [ Parent ]

    Only quibble (none / 0) (#180)
    by Alec82 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:01:06 AM EST
    Democratic officials never inquired into how she was going to vote.  She sold it as a publicity stunt.  She had the opportunity to go to the convention and support Clinton.  She chose to make it about a defect to McCain.

     The DNC has not forced anyone to vote for Obama at the convention.  Which makes this particularly absurd.  No one is arguing about her right to vote for the GOP. It is about her ability to join the convention as a delegate.

     As far as those rumors, haven't heard 'em.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:38:46 AM EST
    if Clinton's name isn't going to be on the ballot then they are taking that option away from her are they not?

    [ Parent ]
    Where did you hear that the (none / 0) (#181)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:20:14 AM EST
    convention might be cancelled?

    [ Parent ]
    It's a rumor (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:41:53 AM EST
    that's going around. I don't know how much truth there is to it but the DNC is obviously bankrupt. With donors defecting all over the place it's unlikely that the DNC will raise enough money to have the convention. They're already talking about cutting it to one day. Jeralyn posted above that the walkthrough in Denver has already been cancelled. There's also some rumors that instead of a convention, Obama is just going to have a kickoff rally in Chicago foregoing the convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Personally, the conventions of is all (none / 0) (#186)
    by zfran on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 08:51:46 AM EST
    the last years have been showy and too glitzy, even for a hollywood girl like myself. Nothing like the old days. Why doesn't Obama just declare himself the winner, get his crown and septer and let's get on with it.

    [ Parent ]
    This story may cast some light (none / 0) (#193)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:34:59 PM EST
    on the subject. Apparently, Obama's fundraising ability doesn't extend to the DNC convention fund. They are looking at a $15 million shortfall for the convention. And Denver is worried they may have to pick up the tab. Ooops. Perhaps Senator Obama can tap into his fundraising lists to help them raise the money. Or maybe do a rally or a speech. Heh.

    [ Parent ]
    The convention is not being canceled (none / 0) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:06:52 PM EST
    It's the Denver Host Committee, not part of the DNC, that is raising money for the Convention. I write about this at 5280.com but you can check the Denver Post or the Rocky Mountain News for the latest.

    The Sunday night parties have been combined into one event to save money and the media walkthrough for next week has been postponed. It does seem like adjustments are being made, but funding wise, they are actually ahead of where Boston was at this point in time.

    [ Parent ]

    Nonsense. (none / 0) (#152)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:48:08 AM EST
    Sorry.  THe vote being counted is the vote for the Democratic Party nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    Rahm Emanuel says Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by masslib on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:54:35 PM EST
    holdouts really are not engaged in politics, and he expects them to sit home and knit:

    Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, a Democratic House leader who helped
    orchestrate the party's strategy for winning control of Congress in
    2006, argues against reading too much into the holdouts. He said most
    of them always stay out of national politics and that the party is
    generally unified around Obama.
    "They're just going to stick to their knitting," he said. "It's not
    that they're anti-Obama."

    http://www.wtop. com/?nid= 213&pid=0& sid=1420529& page=2

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Athena on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:56:36 PM EST
    Right.  OK, Rahm.

    [ Parent ]
    Even the men? What if we don't know (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:58:17 PM EST
    how to knit?

    [ Parent ]
    I am a woman (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by standingup on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:36:50 PM EST
    and have idea of how to knit either.  However, if I had a set of knitting needles and were anywhere near Rahm, I could figure out a good use for them.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's high time you learned, then. (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:58:13 AM EST
    After which, you may teach me.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh Rahm You Manly Man (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:04:48 PM EST
    and so completely clueless about what may be motivating women this year.

    Women multitask very well. They can stay home and knit and still be anti-Obama.

    Oh and by the way sweetie Rahm, you are helping to ensure that women many will stay home whether they are into knitting or not.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Is it even correct to say that Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by MarkL on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:06:37 PM EST
    problem is more with women?

    [ Parent ]
    I know more men who detest him (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:12:17 PM EST
    than women.  Women I know seem to be much more forgiving than the men who supported Hillary.  Men seem more willing to take the full leap and support McCain.


    [ Parent ]
    No. If you want to (5.00 / 9) (#33)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:15:25 PM EST
    give the worst possible motive to the Axelrove reasoning lines however, I would say they are trying to emasculate men who don't support Obama by only acknowledging women.

    [ Parent ]
    I totally agree, Lois. (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by masslib on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:23:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Spin Does Not Require Accuracy (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:19:24 PM EST
    What would be good from an Obama Party perspective is that it refrain from being completely stupid and counterproductive.

    No it is not correct that Obama's problem is mainly with women. Advocates like Rahm, could ensure that it escalates to the point that the women unwilling to vote for Obama becomes as strong as men unwilling to vote for Obama. A definite losing strategy  for November.  

    [ Parent ]

    Have you ever noticed Rahm has part of a (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:03:07 AM EST
    finger missing....just speculating, but he probably p!ssed off some nice lady and she bit it off.  :)

    [ Parent ]
    Is he calling us old? (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:21:36 AM EST
    My neighbor knits, she is in her 50's and won't vote for President. I don't knit. Am I suppose to knit because I am female or because I am over 45? I have to say though, all kidding aside, I don't think he meant it as a compliment. I like to dance and listen to Amy Whinehouse. How young do they want us? Actually, I think they believe that middle age and older people have experiences in life and know what is going on and are willing to speak up about it. Thus, we are not needed anymore.

    They just keep nailing that coffin.

    [ Parent ]

    Is 45 the magic age, now? (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by dianem on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:35:20 AM EST
    If so, then COOL... I'm not old <g> ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    I knitted when I was young (er) (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 01:50:00 AM EST
    Gave it up years ago.  What does that make me?


    [ Parent ]
    Let's knit a replacement for Rahm Imanuel (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:23:07 AM EST
    Knitting's not in my skill set but I'll donate my portion of wool to use for the brains.

    [ Parent ]
    Oooo Oooo (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Valhalla on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:30:11 AM EST
    I can knit.  A Rahm replacement is an excellent idea.

    Far better than what I was sitting here thinking about, which was just what I could knit for Rahm.  I hadn't finished planning, but I'm pretty sure it was gonna involve Rahm needing a poison tester of his own.

    [ Parent ]

    Collaborate on a Crazy Quilt maybe? n/t (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 14, 2008 at 12:37:32 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I bet they aren't knitting (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:06:52 PM EST
    unity sock ponies.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't even know how to knit (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by janarchy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 11:10:22 PM EST
    and I've been engaged i