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Obama On SCOTUS Justices

A 2005 Daily Kos post by Barack Obama chiding people like me for being very hard on Democrats who voted for John Roberts is making the rounds again and it is worth revisiting today in light of the 5-4 vote in today's Gitmo/habeas corpus decision. Obama wrote:

. . . It's this non-ideological lens through which much of the country viewed Judge Roberts' confirmation hearings. A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession. Instead, they have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee). While they hope Roberts doesn't swing the court too sharply to the right, a majority of Americans think that the President should probably get the benefit of the doubt on a clearly qualified nominee.

A plausible argument can be made that too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt. That certainly was the operating assumption of the advocacy groups involved in the nomination battle.

I shared enough of these concerns that I voted against Roberts on the floor this morning. . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) I was among those who argued there was "too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt." I think events have proven me and other "advocates" right and even though Obama voted against Roberts, he certainly did not fight against Roberts or Alito. Today, both Roberts and Alito joined the dissent filed by Justice Antonin Scalia:

The game of bait-and-switch that today’s opinion plays upon the Nation’s Commander in Chief will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed. That consequence would be tolerable if necessary to preserve a time-honored legal principle vital to our constitutional Republic. But it is this Court’s blatant abandonment of such a principle that produces the decision today.

The Chief Justice and Justice Alito joined an intemperate dissent that is blatant in its disregard for the judicial process. These are not judges who lie "within the mainstream of American jurisprudence." Obama's expressed view that they could be viewed as such demonstrated poor judgment.

Of course his vote was fine. But he did not fight against Justices Roberts and Alito. And just as his 2002 speech against the war in Iraq demonstrated his good judgment, this episode is a demerit for Obama's judgment in my considered opinion.

Speaking for me only.

< Probably Innocent, But Still Doing Time | Obama's Statement On Today's Habeas/Gitmo Decision >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I don't think that Obama displays alot of good (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by athyrio on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    judgement overall IMO, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why the DNC is moving its operations to Chicago. Does he just take over the DNC forever even if he loses?

    I don't see a conclusion from that evidence (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:42:40 PM EST
    We should refuse to back any candidate that didn't support a filibuster of the Robers or Alito nominations?  Wasn't Clinton's position broadly identical to Obama's (opposed to the nomination, but in support of cloture)?

    I mean, sure, in hindsight Roberts in particular has turned out far more conservative than was predicted by most people, including Obama (and me, for that matter).  And a filibuster might have been a good idea (or not, if it game the republicans a stronger issue to run on in 2006).

    I guess I'm just not understanding the ... potshots that are being taken here.  Obama is our candidate, and we have to deal with that.  This piece reads more like oppo research from the McCain camp than it does like honest reflection to me...

    [ Parent ]

    Obama wanted to vote for Roberts, (5.00 / 10) (#15)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    but was talked out of it by his staff.
    It's not just the vote---the words DO matter.
    Obama sounds just like Joe Lieberman here. Doesn't that bother.

    [ Parent ]
    Bother me? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:27 PM EST
    Bother me?  A little, on this issue, actually. (although the only cite I could find was a single wapo article from august of last year: it doesn't seem to have been reported at the time).  But at the same time: things worked out.  He goofed, and his staff set him straight.

    But I'll be honest: it bothers me a lot less than this blog post does.  As you said, words do matter, and we're stuck with the candidate we have.  Name-brand blogs throwing dirt on what is essentially a stale grudge match between supporters (the candidates having already buried the hatchet) isn't helping anyone but John McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama has sailed through the primaries (5.00 / 9) (#28)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:55:45 PM EST
    with almost no commitments, because the fluff which is is campaign speech has sufficed.
    I care about having him pinned down on issues  like this.
    Which judges comprise his SCOTUS pool? Do we know?


    [ Parent ]
    Uh... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:03:41 PM EST
    Exactly zero candidates made commitments about supreme court justices.  None.  I'm not aware of anyone in recent history who has, and for all I know it's never happened.  The best you get out of any candidate is a statement of principles ("strict constructionist!", "civil liberties", yada yada).  No one sane is going to subject themselves to the mess that is a court appointment until they have to.

    It's OK to not be thrilled about the democratic candidate this year.  But don't hold him to unfair standards you didn't apply to the rest of the field.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually, Sen. McCain has stated he would (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:57 PM EST
    nominate justices such as Roberts and Alito.

    [ Parent ]
    so all this talk (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:11:33 PM EST
    about all the new voters O is supposed to bring out and a possible veto proof majority in the senate is a really good thing.
    all the democrats have to do is not confirm them.


    [ Parent ]
    Then the dems (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:12:10 PM EST
    better have a filibuster-proof majority if he wins, I guess.  ;)

    [ Parent ]
    which is part of my point (5.00 / 7) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:14:29 PM EST
    the cowardly dems would be a lot more likely to be in the face of a McCain nominee than one of his which in my opinion could be just as bad.


    [ Parent ]
    If the Dems are "cowardly" (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by hookfan on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:38:33 PM EST
    (and I believe they are), what makes you think they would respond to McCain any different than to Bush? Imo, they capitulated to Bush. Bush is a republican, no? I would really like to understand your reasoning here, as for the last 7 plus years the Dems have not been in Bush's face. They seem to get in each other's face quite well. Why wouldn't I expect them to be more assertive towards a Dem?

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, but this is roughly the equivalent... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by independent thinker on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:29:47 PM EST
    of saying "I will pick 'strict constructionist' judges. This statement is not the same as saying I plan to nominate Joe Uber-conservative or Jane Late-Liberal if I am elected.

    No candidate for POTUS is going to name names for SCOTUS nominations during the GE campaign. That is a rediculous expectation.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd say it is about as close to a bright (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:57:48 PM EST
    line as it is possible to get.

    [ Parent ]
    the thing is (5.00 / 7) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:56:39 PM EST
    any dem WONT do.

    [ Parent ]
    this blog post bothers you (5.00 / 15) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:56 PM EST
    because it tells the truth.

    [ Parent ]
    this idea (5.00 / 12) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
    that we are all just supposed to get in line because Howard and Donna told us to and inconvenient truths are never to be uttered is really starting to bug me.
    that is what republicans do.  remember?
    that is what brought us Bush and the world we live in.
    as for me, I will not be blackmailed.


    [ Parent ]
    Obama is not god. (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:10:09 PM EST
    Better to know his weaknesses even if you're going to vote for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, that was why HRC was supposed to get (5.00 / 18) (#45)
    by litigatormom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:06 PM EST
    out of the race a month ago, on the night of June 2, whenever -- to protect Obama.  God forbid we should expect our presumptive nominee to commit to more than pretty rhetoric.

    I remember Obama's DKos post very clearly.  It caused an uproar on DK, with people who had been expecting Obama to be the new liberal scion to make scathing critical comments. The Unity Pony stuff wasn't playing very well then. A couple of years later and those same people wouldn't allow anyone on that board to even raise a question about Obama.

    I still don't get it.

    [ Parent ]

    Not sure about "the same people" (4.66 / 3) (#64)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:18:48 PM EST
    Mostly because I think a lot of people who were around then have since moved on.  But yeah, there's probably a few dozen who don't remember when they were anything but enthusiastically supportive.

    As for Kos, he's proved that he's no stalwart defender of progressive principles when an election is at stake.  Now he's got the biggest chance he's ever had to prove he can get his chosen candidate elected.  So I completely expect him to go through whatever mental gymnastics it takes to do that.

    [ Parent ]

    No, thank Maude, we're not. (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:35 PM EST
    we're stuck with the candidate we have.

    It's not too late. It won't be final until the convention. The party could still come to its collective senses and nominate the best candidate - and it isn't the one we've "got" right now.

    [ Parent ]

    Yikes... (3.00 / 3) (#107)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    Yeah, you've given voice to the my unspoken fear.  This is absolutely what I'm afraid of: that stories like this are a sideways trick for Clinton supports to hurt Obama as much as possible before the convention.  Yes, that freaks me out.  BTD, is that the point of this post?  Please tell me that it's not.


    [ Parent ]
    Democracy can be painful. (5.00 / 5) (#114)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:47:16 PM EST
    If you don't like the heat...

    [ Parent ]
    You consider it a "trick" (5.00 / 8) (#133)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:58:17 PM EST
    to tell the truth about Obama?

    Will it allay your fears if we rush blindly ahead with "the candidate we've got," disregarding anything that might point to his unsuitability?

    Are you for Democratic policies and progressive (or at least not neocon) SCOTUS appointments, or are you only for a single person, regardless of what he will do if he gets in office?

    [ Parent ]

    "a sideways trick . . . (5.00 / 7) (#134)
    by vigkat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:59:22 PM EST
    to hurt Obama"  What's the trick?  Expressing doubt about Obama's judgment?

    [ Parent ]
    yep...and he will let people think he (5.00 / 5) (#182)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:55:08 PM EST
    planned to vote against Roberts all along.  One has to wonder if obama even believes anything he says.

    [ Parent ]
    I am curious about one part of your comment (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:14 PM EST
    Andrew Sullivan is a fierce Obama supporter using this dkos post as evidence to argue for Obama.

    Oppo research indeed.

    I pass on replying to the rest of your comment.

    [ Parent ]

    Daddy Obama chides Dems (5.00 / 9) (#32)
    by Josey on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    for criticizing Democrats supporting Roberts.
    Hey - shut up Dems! can't we all just get along?
    And 95% of the commenters now supporting Obama - said NO.


    [ Parent ]
    Wrong argument (5.00 / 12) (#49)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST
    The argument of the Obama supporter's has been that Obama's politics are basically the same as Clinton's, and even though she has more experience he has shown better judgement, which makes him the better candidate. You can't suddenly turn on a dime as defend him by saying "but he has is as good as Clinton".

    "Obama is our candidate and we have to deal with that" is not a very good slogan. This isn't a DNC website where only nice things can be said. We have been encouraged not to "rant" against Obama, and I think that most of us try hard to respect that, but that doesn't mean that he is not subject to criticism, any more than Clinton was during the primary.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh yeah??? (5.00 / 15) (#2)
    by Trickster on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:32:15 PM EST
    And I don't believe we get there by vilifying good allies, with a lifetime record of battling for progressive causes, over one vote

    cough cough

    will be amusing to watch (5.00 / 21) (#17)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:45:39 PM EST
    as the obamabots celebrate his adding people to his cabinet who made the same votes they vilified hillary for making...

    [ Parent ]
    Presto (5.00 / 9) (#38)
    by Lahdee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:01:56 PM EST
    It's change.
    No, really it's change. Just see the change, it's different, really. Nothing like what Clinton did, nothing at all. So move along or we'll hold our breath until you turn blue.
    Really.

    [ Parent ]
    If only they would hold their breath n/t (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:34:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    To me the disconnect is overwhelming (5.00 / 15) (#100)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:37:39 PM EST
    It is 100% personality politics complete with heros and demons. The heros can do no wrong and the demons can do nothing right. A demon can turn into a hero overnight if he/she supports the hero. A fantasy computer game at its finest.

    Issues like ending the occupation of Iraq and FISA were deemed some of the most important issues evah by DKos and other A-list sites. Yet the same people who railed against the Republicans and wimpy actions of Congress  hold Jim Webb up as a hero and think he would make a great VP even though he backed Bush with his votes on both issues. McCaskill once scorned because of her voting in support of Bush's position on Iraq and FISA became a much loved Senator overnight by endorsing Obama.  

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:17:10 PM EST
    just wow.   This obama I could vote for.

    [ Parent ]
    Now that Clinton's campaign is (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:27 PM EST
    suspended, who will bring this to the attention of the super-delegates?

    The SD's don't care (5.00 / 12) (#35)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    or are too scared/well-compensated to care.  The RBC debacle, the DNC/Pelosi unity threats, and the lightning quick DNC relocation to Chicago prove that.  The fix was and is in.  Electability considerations and progressive policy considerations were not welcome in selecting a candidate.  We are squandering a Dem election-cycle on an internecine power struggle and the promise of easy cash.  Realizing a progressive agenda and bettering America are not on the radar screen of SD considerations.  Progressive interests, like the makeup of SCOTUS, are just clubs to keep the masses in line.  They are most certainly not the point or purpose of the party.  Normally this kind of venal politics doesn't sting, it's just the way things are, but how often do the electoral stars actually align to allow us to unjam the policy logs?  Picking Obama and validating his empty campaign is a sad waste of a golden opportunity.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, that Catholic pro-life guy (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:36 PM EST
    that endorses Obama sounds like a great pick for him.


    I remember (5.00 / 14) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:37:58 PM EST
    this A. You really stood up for what you believed in and did a great job with that one. The Roberts vote really didn't bother me all that much because (I was probably wrong here) he at least seemed like a serious jurist to a layperson like me. The one that boiled my blood was Alito. That guy was and is just d*** creepy.

    All this is why I don't buy too much into the SCOTUS argument that the Obama campaign is selling. I remember too well.

    The right vote (5.00 / 9) (#6)
    by Just another person on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:38:23 PM EST
    Of course, let's not forget that the only reason Obama got the vote right was because to vote otherwise would have thwarted any presidential ambition he may have had on the Democrat ticket. So it's not like "in the end he got it right" is actually much solace.

    This is one reason I am skeptical about the whole "But think about the SCOTUS" argument that many Obama critics are faced with.

    I so agree with everything you have (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
    said...and was deleted for saying having the same response to a post in the section on the SCOTUS decision. Just because Obama is the presumptive nominee it does not elevate his judgement capabilities, it just makes it "his" judgement. Personally, from what I've read, most of the time I agree with BTD's judgment, speaking for me only.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually, his reasoning was fairly nuanced (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:29:51 PM EST
    and based on more than that.

    From his statement on his vote on Roberts:

    the decision with respect to Judge Roberts' nomination has not been an easy one for me to make....

    I am sorely tempted to vote for Judge Roberts based on my study of his resume, his conduct during the hearings, and a conversation I had with him yesterday afternoon.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Judge Roberts is qualified to sit on the highest court in the land. Moreover, he seems to have the comportment and the temperament that makes for a good judge. He is humble, he is personally decent, and he appears to be respectful of different points of view. It is absolutely clear to me that Judge Roberts truly loves the law. ...

    The problem I face ...is that while adherence to legal precedent and rules of statutory or constitutional construction will dispose of 95 percent of the cases that come before a court, so that both a Scalia and a Ginsburg will arrive at the same place most of the time on those 95 percent of the cases -- what matters on the Supreme Court is those 5 percent of cases that are truly difficult. In those cases, adherence to precedent and rules of construction and interpretation will only get you through the 25th mile of the marathon. That last mile can only be determined on the basis of one's deepest values, one's core concerns, one's broader perspectives on how the world works, and the depth and breadth of one's empathy.

    ...In those circumstances, your decisions about whether affirmative action is an appropriate response to the history of discrimination in this country or whether a general right of privacy encompasses a more specific right of women to control their reproductive decisions or whether the commerce clause empowers Congress to speak on those issues of broad national concern that may be only tangentially related to what is easily defined as interstate commerce, whether a person who is disabled has the right to be accommodated so they can work alongside those who are nondisabled -- in those difficult cases, the critical ingredient is supplied by what is in the judge's heart.

    I talked to Judge Roberts about this. Judge Roberts confessed that, unlike maybe professional politicians, it is not easy for him to talk about his values and his deeper feelings. That is not how he is trained. He did say he doesn't like bullies and has always viewed the law as a way of evening out the playing field between the strong and the weak.

    I was impressed with that statement because I view the law in much the same way. The problem I had is that when I examined Judge Roberts' record and history of public service, it is my personal estimation that he has far more often used his formidable skills on behalf of the strong in opposition to the weak. In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.

    I want to take Judge Roberts at his word that he doesn't like bullies and he sees the law and the Court as a means of evening the playing field between the strong and the weak. But given the gravity of the position to which he will undoubtedly ascend and the gravity of the decisions in which he will undoubtedly participate during his tenure on the Court, I ultimately have to give more weight to his deeds and the overarching political philosophy that he appears to have shared with those in power than to the assuring words that he provided me in our meeting....

    So he basically said outright that he thought Roberts was dissembling. And like HRC he also voted no because of the WH's withholding of documents on Roberts' record that would give them more opportunity to make an informed judgment.

    And I doubt he would have written that dkos diary today. He's become much more overtly partisan through this campaign, thanks in good part to Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:12:59 PM EST
    That is a way more promising view of Obama, from the one pumped up here. Sounds good to me.

    BTW- Isn't Leahy a liberal who was taken in by Roberts? I couldn't believe that he voted for the guy. My take at the time was that Roberts was a stealth candidate chosen precisely for his scant public record, and BushCo refusal to release documents made him even more suspicious.

    [ Parent ]

    Feingold was taken in too, (3.00 / 0) (#151)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    rather disappointingly. He gave the benefit of the doubt to the president having the appointments he wanted when there wasn't enough evidence to base a no vote on. Obama's defense of Leahy and others was that criticism of them was too black-and-white and missed the complexities of the situation. I think he's learned a bit more about politics since then and wouldn't say such a silly thing now.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes I Know (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:33:38 PM EST
    I really did not understand any of that nonsense. The unending theme was that we (the Democratic Senators) should wait for the big one to really fight against.  Save their strength?

    And the GOP played them like a violin.

    [ Parent ]

    The fact that he was going to vote (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:14:42 PM EST
    for him before he voted against him makes him a dissembler.

    We don't know what Obama stands for.

    Until he tells me, I'm uncommitted.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (4.00 / 2) (#156)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:28:49 PM EST
    Is that because once your gut takes over the brain ceases to exist?
    Not that I am a fan of Obama, but it does seem that in the end he made the right decision.

    He is not a fighter, like Kennedy. That is for sure. I prefer to hope that the guy will listen to those left of center and nudge those from the right to our side.

    What else is there to hope for? We must hold his feet to the fire, and at least in the Roberts vote he seemed to listen and adjust.

    [ Parent ]

    He apparently "adjusted" (5.00 / 5) (#159)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:35:45 PM EST
    because his political advisors saw trouble on the horizon of his Presidential hopes.  Assuming he is elected President, such an adjustment will not be necessary.  

    [ Parent ]
    Where Did You Read That? (none / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:42:57 PM EST
    I have seen it repeated over and over here but never with a link.

    [ Parent ]
    Hat tip to Steve M up thread in (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:48:23 PM EST
    response to my question:

    LINK

    [ Parent ]

    Yes I Read That (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:09:49 PM EST
    When it came out. If that is what this is all about, pretty thin gruel. Seems like the sort of line that feeds Obama hate, if you dislike him.

    From Alien Abductee's link above it seems to be a bit more than pandering.

    In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.

    More of that please.

    And I for one would hold it against Obama had he voted for Roberts, as I hold it against all the other Dems who did not listen to their constituents or advisors.

    I wish Hillary would have pandered to me and not made her war vote. I have opined over and over that Obama, were in the Senate would have also voted for the resolution, but lucked out. Now I am thinking that with advisors like Pete Rouse perhaps he would have taken the great risk and voted against the AUMF.

    We will never know.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:25:24 PM EST
    And I for one would hold it against Obama had he voted for Roberts, as I hold it against all the other Dems who did not listen to their constituents or advisors.

    Obama's constituents never asked him to vote against war-funding?

    I find that hard to believe.

    [ Parent ]

    Evidentially Not (none / 0) (#203)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:42:44 PM EST
    Nor did Hillary's, and I hold that against them both. And I think that both of them are terrible regarding their positions regarding the WOT/Iraq.

    For me they are both pols, and not to be trusted. Basically the same but way better than the GOP. Personally I like Hillary more than Obama, call it style or whatever,  but as far as policy/votes go they are centrist democrats with very little differences.

    That is why I can't understand the level of cult like adoration for one and contempt for the other be it Obama or Clinton.

    [ Parent ]

    google it yourself.... (none / 0) (#206)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:58:40 PM EST
    you are on a computer aren't you?  What is this obsession with links?  Is it standard Obamabot talk?  Did you ask for "links" to anything that was ever said about Clinton?

    [ Parent ]
    his isn't about this decision. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:37:47 PM EST
    This is about the whole of Obama's stances.

    Please stop with the you're not a fan nonsense.

    You are a fan.

    [ Parent ]

    Pie....at last it has been said...I often wonder (5.00 / 3) (#190)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    about proclaiming they are not for obama, yet continually uprate many, many of the pro-obama posts by the usual suspect that come in here to rile up the troops.  I am pro-Hillary and proud of it, as who have supported her should be...anybody with a tad of brain power knows there are shenanigans afoot brought on by possible collusion amongst the DNC, the party elders and the obama camp.

    [ Parent ]
    Your posting name doesn't help, (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:42:34 PM EST
    btw.  Reminds me of a cult member named Squeaky Fromme.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry (2.00 / 1) (#181)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:55:04 PM EST
    I am not here to help you, win you over, and certainly do not give a sh*t what you think of my comments here, or my TL name. Especially considering that you seem to still be fighting a cult war, with all those horrible Obamamaniacs who did you wrong at whatever site you escaped from to take refuge here.


    [ Parent ]
    Agree (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:43:03 PM EST
    I see so many commenters here refer to his thinking about voting for Roberts and ultimately voting against him as an indictment. Haven't we all wished that Bush would have listened to alternate opinions before making the decisions he has made? Think about where we'd be if the "backstory" on Bush was that he was thinking about bombing Iraq but Powell talked him out of it. We have allowed ourselves to be taken in by the right's rhetoric that changing your mind is a "flip-flop" and is a sign that you can't be trusted. I would think it would be heartening to people to know that he listened to his advisors and in the end, made the right decision. Obama is by no means perfect (just look at his reaction to the Johnson VP vetter thing--abysmal), but I would rather know that the mistakes that he will undoubtedly make will be informed ones--if that makes sense.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#196)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:23:43 PM EST
    No, you get no points for "listening to your advisors" if what your advisors tell you is that voting the opposite way will work out better for you politically.  If Obama had changed his mind because he sat down with a sheaf of Roberts' opinions and concluded "no, I was wrong to want to vote for this guy, he's a dangerous ideologue," we wouldn't be having the same conversation.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't disagree with you (none / 0) (#205)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:48:30 PM EST
    that it was a highly political decision. It was still the right one and not very many made the right vote that day. We don't really know everything that went into his decision.

    [ Parent ]
    He was apologizing for and rationalizing his vote (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:39:34 PM EST
    So why again am I supposed to believe this guy will give me a progressive bench?  I concede he will not appoint a conservative bench.  But a progressive one?

    The SCOTUS argument functions on two levels - defensive and offensive.  I believe Obama will play defense on judicial appointments, against rightward drift, but not offense.  He's not going to push the envelope with his appointees.  Not with his current fundie-hugging approach to the GE.  And that's a darn shame given that this is a Democratic election cycle.

    And to just drop a further thought in, Obama's statement concedes that the president gets his way on judicial appointments.  He admits a submissive role for the Senate.  They function only to police the margins, not to be a partner.  Not everyone believes this is the best interpretation of the separation of powers.  I have mixed feelings myself, but it is certainly not an interpretation I'd be trumpeting when you have a runaway executive in power.

    to be fair (5.00 / 9) (#8)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:39:55 PM EST
    obama recently went on fox and claimed having been criticized on daily kos as proof that he's not a scary liberal. it's a badge of honor. one we can all claim, these days...

    Well. um... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:48 PM EST
    Nice commenters TLC has over there!  The kind that remind me how blessed we are to have Talk Left.

    [ Parent ]
    we're a bit more libertarian with commenters (none / 0) (#37)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    and i go back and forth between pummeling the worst of them and ignoring them.

    [ Parent ]
    A few of them should be ignored (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:45 PM EST
    or more accurately, shunned.

    It's like that all over though.  The last time I tried to read comments to a Digby post, I finally just gave up.  Maybe there really are Pakistani astroturfers getting paid by the post.  

    [ Parent ]

    i don't even read her commenters (4.92 / 13) (#83)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    anyone who has anything bad to say about digby isn't worth wasting the brain cells on. nobody in the blogs is smarter or more fair, and that some fanatics can't abide her intelligence and fairness says all that needs be said about them. she's a great litmus test for simple sanity.

    [ Parent ]
    I wonder if things changed (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
    after her gender was made public.

    I wish Somerby would have comments, but the best I can do is search for trackbacks.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep, things changed (5.00 / 6) (#115)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:48:33 PM EST
    She had to shut down and moderate comments because of all the misogynist b.s., and then when she had anything even-handed to say about the primaries, anything remotely positive about Clinton, the bile and hatred was overwhelming.

    I used to like some of the comments on her posts. Can't read 'em now.

    Turkana, I really like TLC (it's one of my few remaining bookmarked blogs), but you have a couple of regulars over there who raise my BP so much I have been avoiding the comments lately too (cough Bob you know who cough).

    [ Parent ]

    Heh... (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:46:22 PM EST
    I felt really bad about clogging up one of her comment threads, but some McCain troll (it couldn't have been a real Obama supporter, at least I hope-lol) made the mistake of calling another commenter "dear" in a patronizing way and I lit into his sorry *ss like there was no tomorrow.  Dog help me, but it felt gooooood.  I did apologize to Digby, who I hold in the highest esteem as she is both incredibly sharp and wickedly direct.  She actually, you know, writes instead of just laying down two sentence smart*ss remarks.  She is a legend who luckily for us ia very real.

    Seriously, light into an Obamaton on some other blog, it is good tonic for the soul IMHO.  But of course, come right back here.  LOL

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    olly, olly oxen free...you made it Jackson (none / 0) (#193)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:21:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    At the time Senator Obama wrote the (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:40:09 PM EST
    DK diary, was it public knowledge that he initially intended to vote to confirm Roberts?

    No (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    Obama made that post on the day of Roberts' floor vote in 2005.  As far as I know, the backstory didn't get told until August 2007.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks. (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:53:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So... he's an establishment supporting centrist (5.00 / 12) (#10)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM EST
    I knew that. Why couldn't his supporter's figure out that "change" was a campaign slogan, not a campaign promise?

    because (5.00 / 14) (#19)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    they have hope...

    [ Parent ]
    That (5.00 / 9) (#39)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:40 PM EST
    he will change?

    [ Parent ]
    Have faith (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:24:16 PM EST
    and be charitable .

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know.... (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:33 PM EST
    "Change we can believe in" sounds like a pretty close definition for all the religion he's injecting into the process.


    [ Parent ]
    Sigh. Typical Obama. (5.00 / 12) (#11)
    by cosbo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:41:09 PM EST
    Standing up for everyone and noone at the same time. I don't what's going to happen, but something in my gut tells me that the convention in Denver is going to erupt this year. I sure as hell don't feel any party unity or any sense of the whole coming together anytime soon.

    In a year that was made for democrats, only democrats could have frakked it up. And boy did they ever.

    Obama's Statements (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by The Maven on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    as to the types of judicial nominations he would seek to make (and frankly, I'm at least as concerned about Circuit Court judges as I am about Supreme Court justices) are, like so much else, disappointingly vague, presumably deliberately so.  I think his guiding principle in making any selection would be to seek people so "mainstream", so unobjectionable -- read, confirmable with 90+ votes and no possible filibusters or tie-ups in the Judiciary Committee -- that they would be unlikely to push to undo the legacy and horrid precedents established by Bush-era courts.  To do otherwise would risk being branded as "partisan", a moniker Obama seems desperate to avoid at all costs.

    I think the problem is (4.80 / 5) (#53)
    by Hope on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:13:34 PM EST
    as with everything else, we don't know what he would do. He won't set out a clear policy and stick to it.

    You can (and people do) parse him all over the shop.

    What kind of judges would he pick? No idea.

    I've heard people say so many times "that means x", or "he really means y". If that is the case, why won't he just say what he means?

    And I speak as someone who rather liked Roberts. What are Obama's principles, and will he stand up for them. Again, no idea.

    [ Parent ]

    You mean (2.00 / 1) (#41)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    like David Souter, Ruth Ginsburg, and John Stevens?

    [ Parent ]
    This was exactly the nonsense (5.00 / 8) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
    people were writing about Roberts. They were as wrong as you are. At least then there was not irrefutable proof. That you write that comment now is amazing to me.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (4.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:21 PM EST
    What a crime it would be to make Bill Clinton's nominations when we no longer have anything close to Bill Clinton's Senate.

    I'm not saying we need to appoint Stephen Reinhardt, mind you, but there's plenty of territory between him and Stephen Breyer that we could productively explore.

    [ Parent ]

    you mean the "anti war" speech (5.00 / 6) (#14)
    by cpinva on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:43:37 PM EST
    given in a place no one knew about, for a puny audience, who didn't know who he was, or care what he had to say? is that the "anti war" speech you're referring to?

    And just as his 2002 speech against the war in Iraq demonstrated his good judgment, this episode is a demerit for Obama's judgment in my considered opinion.

    i would argue that his choice of known associates amply demonstrates his long-term poor judgment. his view on roberts and alito is merely a continuation of a life-long theme.

    The speech whose video we don't even (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:44:51 PM EST
    have? The one Obama re-created in the studio?
    How brave!

    [ Parent ]
    The anti-war speech for which no (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    transcript nor original recording is extant?  That anti-war speech?

    [ Parent ]
    The transcript from 2002 doesn't exist?! (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If it does, I haven't found it. And I have (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    searched.

    [ Parent ]
    That is rather disturbing. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    There has to be something (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:24:53 PM EST
    This speech is practically the cornerstone of his campaign. They have to be able to produce something. Even if it's witness testimonials, there should be something prominent on his web site. This is a huge gap that the right can exploit - they can suggest that he is lying about having opposed the war publicly. If they have anything, they need to get it out there. If they don't, they need to make something, fast, so that they can refer to it when the attacks come (and if there is nothing out there, then the attacks will come).

    [ Parent ]
    To paraphrase Biden (5.00 / 8) (#119)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:50:17 PM EST
    "A noun, a verb and a speech."

    [ Parent ]
    Internet Archive (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    has a copy of it on the archive of his obamaforillinois.com site.  It is still available on his News page.    

    The text is in an odd color making it difficult to read.  I copied and pasted it into a document to keep from straining my eyes.  

    The title is Obama:  I'm not against wars but?.  The date is Wed, October 23, 2002 and it states it also ran as a column in the Hyde Park Herald for October 30, 2002.

    Also, credit for this info really belongs to Bruce Dixon and The Black Agenda Report.  Dixon wrote several pieces on Obama in 2003, including this one where he discovered Obama had removed his 2002 speech from his campaign site.  Dixon took Obama to task for the removal of the speech (and a few other issues) so I take that as additional confirmation it does exist.        

    [ Parent ]

    Can't see the text on the link. Just yellow. (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:34:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#110)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:42:47 PM EST
    Highlight the text of the speech, copy and paste it into a document to make it readable.  

    [ Parent ]
    Disappearing ink, or what? (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:52:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Who was supposed to be the audience? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:26:09 PM EST
    Maybe he gave it to a very small, private group, and it wasn't really a speech, but more like a conversation among friends.


    [ Parent ]
    Federal Plaza in Chicago. Anti-war rally. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:35:20 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    why didn't (5.00 / 6) (#129)
    by miguelito on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:56:31 PM EST
    he do anything or give some big anti-war speech after being on the national stage?  It's an absolute joke that this "speech" was trumpeted at all.  It's akin to writing an anti-war blog diary in 2003.

    [ Parent ]
    Not the full thing, but there's a video (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Pegasus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:09:01 PM EST
    featuring partial clips here.

    I know I'm over my "new commenter" limit for the day, but I really wanted to throw this out there.  He did give the speech.

    [ Parent ]

    I think you're wrong, BTD (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:48:49 PM EST
    because you're not putting it in context.  The whole of the sentence you excerpt:

    A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession.

    Instead, they [this putative majority of folks] have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee).

    He is describing the beliefs of those with whom he is parting company by voting against.  This "majority of folks" could be any majority, though I suspect it is of the "Folks" who mattered in the confirmation hearing, i.e., senators.  

    I read this as his saying to the Dems who voted "for" Roberts, "You're wrong", politely.

    "They have good reason to believe":  what was the Record before the Senate?  Roberts testifying to being modest judicially - "an honest umpire", "calling balls and strikes", yadda, yadda.  Pretty much the same as Alito.*  Assuming (big assumption) Roberts had been honest in his confirmation hearings,

    What I see here is someone who was looking ahead and wanted to leave himself room on both sides, but wanted to vote "no" without coming across strident.  That says "careful politician with an eye toward the future".  

    Nothing wrong (and a lot right) with that.

    There is also an implicit criticism (as naive or dupes) of those Dems and independents who believe Republicans who come to them with a smile on their face and a hearty handshake, rather than being a smarmy, snarly DeLay-type.  

    Or, as I say to a colleague:  "he's a Republican.  He is not your friend."

    We cannot de-contextualize Obama, nor can we allow clauses from his sentences to be removed.  They do change the meaning.  The same took place with the "bitter" comment - in whole, it read that one could understand that some of the people in small towns, screwed over by the system, would become bitter and cling to their guns and religion. Far different from calling them all bitter, small-minded yahoos.

    You're a lawyer and you understand both nuance and, for that matter, dependent clauses.
    -
    * No Tim Donaghy reference here, but I could make one.  
    ** TL could tell you for sure, but I recall that when it became evident there would be an opening, I called out Alito as the one who would be picked, a week or so before-hand.  

    That makes no sense, since Obama (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:50:37 PM EST
    originally had no opposition to Roberts at all.

    [ Parent ]
    I find that poor judgment (5.00 / 19) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:56:38 PM EST
    How come I and other KNEW Roberts was a Trojan Horse?

    I spent a good deal of time fighting against the Roberts nomination at daily kos, on the front page.

    Their current legal commenter, Adam B was a HUGE defender of John Roberts.

    How come, like Obama gets credit for HIS good judgment in opposing Iraq (I did too BTW), but I get NONE for my good judgment in raising a stink about Roberts?

    [ Parent ]

    You aren't running for office (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:11:37 PM EST
    The problem with Roberts was that he was going to get confirmed one way or the other.  A filibuster would have quickly become political poison the Democrats would have needed to relent.  

    Supreme Court confirmations are political high theater.  They are appellate hearings that no one cares about.  They are front page stories.  And the Republicans would have made sure that the entire country knew that the Democrats were blocking a highly qualified judge for purely political reasons.

    Roberts was going to get confirmed.  They had the votes.  Fighting it was pointless.

    This is why we need both a Democratic President and Congress.  We need to pick a 40 year progressive justice that can be on that court for the next 30 years combating Roberts, Alito, and Scalia.

    So far Roberts has been pretty much what most people expected. He isn't a radical in the mold of Thomas but he is most certainly a Conservative.  It could have been worse.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama was not in the Senate (5.00 / 7) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    for the Iraq vote. Does that mean his opposition means less? Would you argue there were reasonable arguments for voting for the Iraq War? I sure would not. It was a terrible mistake by the Dem pols in the Senate that did so.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes. I was against the war too. (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:36 PM EST
    But I wasn't a sitting Senator facing a vote on it.  It's not like he marched Washington.  He gave a very brief speech against the war at a time he was in a primary with 5 other candidates were all outspokenly against the war.  I give no credence to his claim that he demonstrated superior judgement.  I simply have no way of knowing how he would have voted.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely does (5.00 / 6) (#93)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:57 PM EST
    He came out in 2004 supporting the war, claiming he never, ever called for a troop withdrawal and he felt Bush was doing a good job with the war. His explanation for that last November when Tim Russert quoted him and called him out on his flip flop was that he needed to do it because he was supporting Kerry and it would have been irresponsible of him to take an opposing viewpoint.

    So, yes, his opposition does just mean less, it means nothing.


    [ Parent ]

    Kristen Breitweiss did ask where Obama was when (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by jawbone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:54:59 PM EST
    the antiwar forces could have used some good PR, some strong voices in their corner.  

    Wouldn't have been politically expedient for him to become too well known as antiwar until he knew which way the wi