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Obama On SCOTUS Justices

A 2005 Daily Kos post by Barack Obama chiding people like me for being very hard on Democrats who voted for John Roberts is making the rounds again and it is worth revisiting today in light of the 5-4 vote in today's Gitmo/habeas corpus decision. Obama wrote:

. . . It's this non-ideological lens through which much of the country viewed Judge Roberts' confirmation hearings. A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession. Instead, they have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee). While they hope Roberts doesn't swing the court too sharply to the right, a majority of Americans think that the President should probably get the benefit of the doubt on a clearly qualified nominee.

A plausible argument can be made that too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt. That certainly was the operating assumption of the advocacy groups involved in the nomination battle.

I shared enough of these concerns that I voted against Roberts on the floor this morning. . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) I was among those who argued there was "too much is at stake here and now, in terms of privacy issues, civil rights, and civil liberties, to give John Roberts the benefit of the doubt." I think events have proven me and other "advocates" right and even though Obama voted against Roberts, he certainly did not fight against Roberts or Alito. Today, both Roberts and Alito joined the dissent filed by Justice Antonin Scalia:

The game of bait-and-switch that today’s opinion plays upon the Nation’s Commander in Chief will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed. That consequence would be tolerable if necessary to preserve a time-honored legal principle vital to our constitutional Republic. But it is this Court’s blatant abandonment of such a principle that produces the decision today.

The Chief Justice and Justice Alito joined an intemperate dissent that is blatant in its disregard for the judicial process. These are not judges who lie "within the mainstream of American jurisprudence." Obama's expressed view that they could be viewed as such demonstrated poor judgment.

Of course his vote was fine. But he did not fight against Justices Roberts and Alito. And just as his 2002 speech against the war in Iraq demonstrated his good judgment, this episode is a demerit for Obama's judgment in my considered opinion.

Speaking for me only.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I don't think that Obama displays alot of good (5.00 / 9) (#1)
    by athyrio on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    judgement overall IMO, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why the DNC is moving its operations to Chicago. Does he just take over the DNC forever even if he loses?

    I don't see a conclusion from that evidence (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:42:40 PM EST
    We should refuse to back any candidate that didn't support a filibuster of the Robers or Alito nominations?  Wasn't Clinton's position broadly identical to Obama's (opposed to the nomination, but in support of cloture)?

    I mean, sure, in hindsight Roberts in particular has turned out far more conservative than was predicted by most people, including Obama (and me, for that matter).  And a filibuster might have been a good idea (or not, if it game the republicans a stronger issue to run on in 2006).

    I guess I'm just not understanding the ... potshots that are being taken here.  Obama is our candidate, and we have to deal with that.  This piece reads more like oppo research from the McCain camp than it does like honest reflection to me...

    Parent

    Obama wanted to vote for Roberts, (5.00 / 10) (#15)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    but was talked out of it by his staff.
    It's not just the vote---the words DO matter.
    Obama sounds just like Joe Lieberman here. Doesn't that bother.

    Parent
    Bother me? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:27 PM EST
    Bother me?  A little, on this issue, actually. (although the only cite I could find was a single wapo article from august of last year: it doesn't seem to have been reported at the time).  But at the same time: things worked out.  He goofed, and his staff set him straight.

    But I'll be honest: it bothers me a lot less than this blog post does.  As you said, words do matter, and we're stuck with the candidate we have.  Name-brand blogs throwing dirt on what is essentially a stale grudge match between supporters (the candidates having already buried the hatchet) isn't helping anyone but John McCain.

    Parent

    Obama has sailed through the primaries (5.00 / 9) (#28)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:55:45 PM EST
    with almost no commitments, because the fluff which is is campaign speech has sufficed.
    I care about having him pinned down on issues  like this.
    Which judges comprise his SCOTUS pool? Do we know?


    Parent
    Uh... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:03:41 PM EST
    Exactly zero candidates made commitments about supreme court justices.  None.  I'm not aware of anyone in recent history who has, and for all I know it's never happened.  The best you get out of any candidate is a statement of principles ("strict constructionist!", "civil liberties", yada yada).  No one sane is going to subject themselves to the mess that is a court appointment until they have to.

    It's OK to not be thrilled about the democratic candidate this year.  But don't hold him to unfair standards you didn't apply to the rest of the field.

    Parent

    Actually, Sen. McCain has stated he would (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:57 PM EST
    nominate justices such as Roberts and Alito.

    Parent
    so all this talk (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:11:33 PM EST
    about all the new voters O is supposed to bring out and a possible veto proof majority in the senate is a really good thing.
    all the democrats have to do is not confirm them.


    Parent
    Then the dems (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:12:10 PM EST
    better have a filibuster-proof majority if he wins, I guess.  ;)

    Parent
    which is part of my point (5.00 / 6) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:14:29 PM EST
    the cowardly dems would be a lot more likely to be in the face of a McCain nominee than one of his which in my opinion could be just as bad.


    Parent
    If the Dems are "cowardly" (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by hookfan on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:38:33 PM EST
    (and I believe they are), what makes you think they would respond to McCain any different than to Bush? Imo, they capitulated to Bush. Bush is a republican, no? I would really like to understand your reasoning here, as for the last 7 plus years the Dems have not been in Bush's face. They seem to get in each other's face quite well. Why wouldn't I expect them to be more assertive towards a Dem?

    Parent
    Yes, but this is roughly the equivalent... (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by independent thinker on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:29:47 PM EST
    of saying "I will pick 'strict constructionist' judges. This statement is not the same as saying I plan to nominate Joe Uber-conservative or Jane Late-Liberal if I am elected.

    No candidate for POTUS is going to name names for SCOTUS nominations during the GE campaign. That is a rediculous expectation.

    Parent

    I'd say it is about as close to a bright (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:57:48 PM EST
    line as it is possible to get.

    Parent
    the thing is (5.00 / 7) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:56:39 PM EST
    any dem WONT do.

    Parent
    this blog post bothers you (5.00 / 15) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:56 PM EST
    because it tells the truth.

    Parent
    this idea (5.00 / 12) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:49 PM EST
    that we are all just supposed to get in line because Howard and Donna told us to and inconvenient truths are never to be uttered is really starting to bug me.
    that is what republicans do.  remember?
    that is what brought us Bush and the world we live in.
    as for me, I will not be blackmailed.


    Parent
    Obama is not god. (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:10:09 PM EST
    Better to know his weaknesses even if you're going to vote for him.

    Parent
    Yeah, that was why HRC was supposed to get (5.00 / 18) (#45)
    by litigatormom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:06 PM EST
    out of the race a month ago, on the night of June 2, whenever -- to protect Obama.  God forbid we should expect our presumptive nominee to commit to more than pretty rhetoric.

    I remember Obama's DKos post very clearly.  It caused an uproar on DK, with people who had been expecting Obama to be the new liberal scion to make scathing critical comments. The Unity Pony stuff wasn't playing very well then. A couple of years later and those same people wouldn't allow anyone on that board to even raise a question about Obama.

    I still don't get it.

    Parent

    Not sure about "the same people" (4.66 / 3) (#64)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:18:48 PM EST
    Mostly because I think a lot of people who were around then have since moved on.  But yeah, there's probably a few dozen who don't remember when they were anything but enthusiastically supportive.

    As for Kos, he's proved that he's no stalwart defender of progressive principles when an election is at stake.  Now he's got the biggest chance he's ever had to prove he can get his chosen candidate elected.  So I completely expect him to go through whatever mental gymnastics it takes to do that.

    Parent

    No, thank Maude, we're not. (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:35 PM EST
    we're stuck with the candidate we have.

    It's not too late. It won't be final until the convention. The party could still come to its collective senses and nominate the best candidate - and it isn't the one we've "got" right now.

    Parent

    Yikes... (3.00 / 3) (#107)
    by anydemwilldo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    Yeah, you've given voice to the my unspoken fear.  This is absolutely what I'm afraid of: that stories like this are a sideways trick for Clinton supports to hurt Obama as much as possible before the convention.  Yes, that freaks me out.  BTD, is that the point of this post?  Please tell me that it's not.


    Parent
    Democracy can be painful. (5.00 / 5) (#114)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:47:16 PM EST
    If you don't like the heat...

    Parent
    You consider it a "trick" (5.00 / 8) (#133)
    by echinopsia on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:58:17 PM EST
    to tell the truth about Obama?

    Will it allay your fears if we rush blindly ahead with "the candidate we've got," disregarding anything that might point to his unsuitability?

    Are you for Democratic policies and progressive (or at least not neocon) SCOTUS appointments, or are you only for a single person, regardless of what he will do if he gets in office?

    Parent

    "a sideways trick . . . (5.00 / 7) (#134)
    by vigkat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:59:22 PM EST
    to hurt Obama"  What's the trick?  Expressing doubt about Obama's judgment?

    Parent
    yep...and he will let people think he (5.00 / 5) (#182)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:55:08 PM EST
    planned to vote against Roberts all along.  One has to wonder if obama even believes anything he says.

    Parent
    I am curious about one part of your comment (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:14 PM EST
    Andrew Sullivan is a fierce Obama supporter using this dkos post as evidence to argue for Obama.

    Oppo research indeed.

    I pass on replying to the rest of your comment.

    Parent

    Daddy Obama chides Dems (5.00 / 9) (#32)
    by Josey on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:48 PM EST
    for criticizing Democrats supporting Roberts.
    Hey - shut up Dems! can't we all just get along?
    And 95% of the commenters now supporting Obama - said NO.


    Parent
    Wrong argument (5.00 / 12) (#49)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST
    The argument of the Obama supporter's has been that Obama's politics are basically the same as Clinton's, and even though she has more experience he has shown better judgement, which makes him the better candidate. You can't suddenly turn on a dime as defend him by saying "but he has is as good as Clinton".

    "Obama is our candidate and we have to deal with that" is not a very good slogan. This isn't a DNC website where only nice things can be said. We have been encouraged not to "rant" against Obama, and I think that most of us try hard to respect that, but that doesn't mean that he is not subject to criticism, any more than Clinton was during the primary.

    Parent

    Oh yeah??? (5.00 / 15) (#2)
    by Trickster on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:32:15 PM EST
    And I don't believe we get there by vilifying good allies, with a lifetime record of battling for progressive causes, over one vote

    cough cough

    will be amusing to watch (5.00 / 21) (#17)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:45:39 PM EST
    as the obamabots celebrate his adding people to his cabinet who made the same votes they vilified hillary for making...

    Parent
    Presto (5.00 / 9) (#38)
    by Lahdee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:01:56 PM EST
    It's change.
    No, really it's change. Just see the change, it's different, really. Nothing like what Clinton did, nothing at all. So move along or we'll hold our breath until you turn blue.
    Really.

    Parent
    If only they would hold their breath n/t (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:34:02 PM EST
    To me the disconnect is overwhelming (5.00 / 15) (#100)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:37:39 PM EST
    It is 100% personality politics complete with heros and demons. The heros can do no wrong and the demons can do nothing right. A demon can turn into a hero overnight if he/she supports the hero. A fantasy computer game at its finest.

    Issues like ending the occupation of Iraq and FISA were deemed some of the most important issues evah by DKos and other A-list sites. Yet the same people who railed against the Republicans and wimpy actions of Congress  hold Jim Webb up as a hero and think he would make a great VP even though he backed Bush with his votes on both issues. McCaskill once scorned because of her voting in support of Bush's position on Iraq and FISA became a much loved Senator overnight by endorsing Obama.  

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:17:10 PM EST
    just wow.   This obama I could vote for.

    Parent
    Now that Clinton's campaign is (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:27 PM EST
    suspended, who will bring this to the attention of the super-delegates?

    The SD's don't care (5.00 / 12) (#35)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    or are too scared/well-compensated to care.  The RBC debacle, the DNC/Pelosi unity threats, and the lightning quick DNC relocation to Chicago prove that.  The fix was and is in.  Electability considerations and progressive policy considerations were not welcome in selecting a candidate.  We are squandering a Dem election-cycle on an internecine power struggle and the promise of easy cash.  Realizing a progressive agenda and bettering America are not on the radar screen of SD considerations.  Progressive interests, like the makeup of SCOTUS, are just clubs to keep the masses in line.  They are most certainly not the point or purpose of the party.  Normally this kind of venal politics doesn't sting, it's just the way things are, but how often do the electoral stars actually align to allow us to unjam the policy logs?  Picking Obama and validating his empty campaign is a sad waste of a golden opportunity.

    Parent
    Well, that Catholic pro-life guy (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:36 PM EST
    that endorses Obama sounds like a great pick for him.


    I remember (5.00 / 14) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:37:58 PM EST
    this A. You really stood up for what you believed in and did a great job with that one. The Roberts vote really didn't bother me all that much because (I was probably wrong here) he at least seemed like a serious jurist to a layperson like me. The one that boiled my blood was Alito. That guy was and is just d*** creepy.

    All this is why I don't buy too much into the SCOTUS argument that the Obama campaign is selling. I remember too well.

    He was apologizing for and rationalizing his vote (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:39:34 PM EST
    So why again am I supposed to believe this guy will give me a progressive bench?  I concede he will not appoint a conservative bench.  But a progressive one?

    The SCOTUS argument functions on two levels - defensive and offensive.  I believe Obama will play defense on judicial appointments, against rightward drift, but not offense.  He's not going to push the envelope with his appointees.  Not with his current fundie-hugging approach to the GE.  And that's a darn shame given that this is a Democratic election cycle.

    And to just drop a further thought in, Obama's statement concedes that the president gets his way on judicial appointments.  He admits a submissive role for the Senate.  They function only to police the margins, not to be a partner.  Not everyone believes this is the best interpretation of the separation of powers.  I have mixed feelings myself, but it is certainly not an interpretation I'd be trumpeting when you have a runaway executive in power.

    to be fair (5.00 / 9) (#8)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:39:55 PM EST
    obama recently went on fox and claimed having been criticized on daily kos as proof that he's not a scary liberal. it's a badge of honor. one we can all claim, these days...

    Well. um... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:48 PM EST
    Nice commenters TLC has over there!  The kind that remind me how blessed we are to have Talk Left.

    Parent
    we're a bit more libertarian with commenters (none / 0) (#37)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:14 PM EST
    and i go back and forth between pummeling the worst of them and ignoring them.

    Parent
    A few of them should be ignored (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:45 PM EST
    or more accurately, shunned.

    It's like that all over though.  The last time I tried to read comments to a Digby post, I finally just gave up.  Maybe there really are Pakistani astroturfers getting paid by the post.  

    Parent

    i don't even read her commenters (4.91 / 12) (#83)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    anyone who has anything bad to say about digby isn't worth wasting the brain cells on. nobody in the blogs is smarter or more fair, and that some fanatics can't abide her intelligence and fairness says all that needs be said about them. she's a great litmus test for simple sanity.

    Parent
    I wonder if things changed (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:30:35 PM EST
    after her gender was made public.

    I wish Somerby would have comments, but the best I can do is search for trackbacks.

    Parent

    Yep, things changed (5.00 / 6) (#115)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:48:33 PM EST
    She had to shut down and moderate comments because of all the misogynist b.s., and then when she had anything even-handed to say about the primaries, anything remotely positive about Clinton, the bile and hatred was overwhelming.

    I used to like some of the comments on her posts. Can't read 'em now.

    Turkana, I really like TLC (it's one of my few remaining bookmarked blogs), but you have a couple of regulars over there who raise my BP so much I have been avoiding the comments lately too (cough Bob you know who cough).

    Parent

    Heh... (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:46:22 PM EST
    I felt really bad about clogging up one of her comment threads, but some McCain troll (it couldn't have been a real Obama supporter, at least I hope-lol) made the mistake of calling another commenter "dear" in a patronizing way and I lit into his sorry *ss like there was no tomorrow.  Dog help me, but it felt gooooood.  I did apologize to Digby, who I hold in the highest esteem as she is both incredibly sharp and wickedly direct.  She actually, you know, writes instead of just laying down two sentence smart*ss remarks.  She is a legend who luckily for us ia very real.

    Seriously, light into an Obamaton on some other blog, it is good tonic for the soul IMHO.  But of course, come right back here.  LOL

    Jackson

    Parent

    olly, olly oxen free...you made it Jackson (none / 0) (#193)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:21:00 PM EST
    At the time Senator Obama wrote the (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:40:09 PM EST
    DK diary, was it public knowledge that he initially intended to vote to confirm Roberts?

    No (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    Obama made that post on the day of Roberts' floor vote in 2005.  As far as I know, the backstory didn't get told until August 2007.

    Parent
    Thanks. (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:53:32 PM EST
    So... he's an establishment supporting centrist (5.00 / 12) (#10)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:40:46 PM EST
    I knew that. Why couldn't his supporter's figure out that "change" was a campaign slogan, not a campaign promise?

    because (5.00 / 14) (#19)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:47:01 PM EST
    they have hope...

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 9) (#39)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:40 PM EST
    he will change?

    Parent
    Have faith (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:24:16 PM EST
    and be charitable .

    Parent
    I don't know.... (5.00 / 6) (#72)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:33 PM EST
    "Change we can believe in" sounds like a pretty close definition for all the religion he's injecting into the process.


    Parent
    Sigh. Typical Obama. (5.00 / 12) (#11)
    by cosbo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:41:09 PM EST
    Standing up for everyone and noone at the same time. I don't what's going to happen, but something in my gut tells me that the convention in Denver is going to erupt this year. I sure as hell don't feel any party unity or any sense of the whole coming together anytime soon.

    In a year that was made for democrats, only democrats could have frakked it up. And boy did they ever.

    Obama's Statements (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by The Maven on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:42:30 PM EST
    as to the types of judicial nominations he would seek to make (and frankly, I'm at least as concerned about Circuit Court judges as I am about Supreme Court justices) are, like so much else, disappointingly vague, presumably deliberately so.  I think his guiding principle in making any selection would be to seek people so "mainstream", so unobjectionable -- read, confirmable with 90+ votes and no possible filibusters or tie-ups in the Judiciary Committee -- that they would be unlikely to push to undo the legacy and horrid precedents established by Bush-era courts.  To do otherwise would risk being branded as "partisan", a moniker Obama seems desperate to avoid at all costs.

    You mean (2.00 / 1) (#41)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    like David Souter, Ruth Ginsburg, and John Stevens?

    Parent
    This was exactly the nonsense (5.00 / 7) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
    people were writing about Roberts. They were as wrong as you are. At least then there was not irrefutable proof. That you write that comment now is amazing to me.

    Parent
    Heh (4.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:21 PM EST
    What a crime it would be to make Bill Clinton's nominations when we no longer have anything close to Bill Clinton's Senate.

    I'm not saying we need to appoint Stephen Reinhardt, mind you, but there's plenty of territory between him and Stephen Breyer that we could productively explore.

    Parent

    you mean the "anti war" speech (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by cpinva on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:43:37 PM EST
    given in a place no one knew about, for a puny audience, who didn't know who he was, or care what he had to say? is that the "anti war" speech you're referring to?

    And just as his 2002 speech against the war in Iraq demonstrated his good judgment, this episode is a demerit for Obama's judgment in my considered opinion.

    i would argue that his choice of known associates amply demonstrates his long-term poor judgment. his view on roberts and alito is merely a continuation of a life-long theme.

    The speech whose video we don't even (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:44:51 PM EST
    have? The one Obama re-created in the studio?
    How brave!

    Parent
    The anti-war speech for which no (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    transcript nor original recording is extant?  That anti-war speech?

    Parent
    The transcript from 2002 doesn't exist?! (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:16 PM EST
    If it does, I haven't found it. And I have (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:28 PM EST
    searched.

    Parent
    That is rather disturbing. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:57:10 PM EST
    There has to be something (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:24:53 PM EST
    This speech is practically the cornerstone of his campaign. They have to be able to produce something. Even if it's witness testimonials, there should be something prominent on his web site. This is a huge gap that the right can exploit - they can suggest that he is lying about having opposed the war publicly. If they have anything, they need to get it out there. If they don't, they need to make something, fast, so that they can refer to it when the attacks come (and if there is nothing out there, then the attacks will come).

    Parent
    To paraphrase Biden (5.00 / 7) (#119)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:50:17 PM EST
    "A noun, a verb and a speech."

    Parent
    Internet Archive (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:25:00 PM EST
    has a copy of it on the archive of his obamaforillinois.com site.  It is still available on his News page.    

    The text is in an odd color making it difficult to read.  I copied and pasted it into a document to keep from straining my eyes.  

    The title is Obama:  I'm not against wars but?.  The date is Wed, October 23, 2002 and it states it also ran as a column in the Hyde Park Herald for October 30, 2002.

    Also, credit for this info really belongs to Bruce Dixon and The Black Agenda Report.  Dixon wrote several pieces on Obama in 2003, including this one where he discovered Obama had removed his 2002 speech from his campaign site.  Dixon took Obama to task for the removal of the speech (and a few other issues) so I take that as additional confirmation it does exist.        

    Parent

    Can't see the text on the link. Just yellow. (none / 0) (#97)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:34:52 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#110)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:42:47 PM EST
    Highlight the text of the speech, copy and paste it into a document to make it readable.  

    Parent
    Disappearing ink, or what? (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:52:41 PM EST
    Who was supposed to be the audience? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:26:09 PM EST
    Maybe he gave it to a very small, private group, and it wasn't really a speech, but more like a conversation among friends.


    Parent
    Federal Plaza in Chicago. Anti-war rally. (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:35:20 PM EST
    why didn't (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by miguelito on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:56:31 PM EST
    he do anything or give some big anti-war speech after being on the national stage?  It's an absolute joke that this "speech" was trumpeted at all.  It's akin to writing an anti-war blog diary in 2003.

    Parent
    Not the full thing, but there's a video (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Pegasus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:09:01 PM EST
    featuring partial clips here.

    I know I'm over my "new commenter" limit for the day, but I really wanted to throw this out there.  He did give the speech.

    Parent

    I think you're wrong, BTD (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:48:49 PM EST
    because you're not putting it in context.  The whole of the sentence you excerpt:

    A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession.

    Instead, they [this putative majority of folks] have good reason to believe he is a conservative judge who is (like it or not) within the mainstream of American jurisprudence, a judge appointed by a conservative president who could have done much worse (and probably, I fear, may do worse with the next nominee).

    He is describing the beliefs of those with whom he is parting company by voting against.  This "majority of folks" could be any majority, though I suspect it is of the "Folks" who mattered in the confirmation hearing, i.e., senators.  

    I read this as his saying to the Dems who voted "for" Roberts, "You're wrong", politely.

    "They have good reason to believe":  what was the Record before the Senate?  Roberts testifying to being modest judicially - "an honest umpire", "calling balls and strikes", yadda, yadda.  Pretty much the same as Alito.*  Assuming (big assumption) Roberts had been honest in his confirmation hearings,

    What I see here is someone who was looking ahead and wanted to leave himself room on both sides, but wanted to vote "no" without coming across strident.  That says "careful politician with an eye toward the future".  

    Nothing wrong (and a lot right) with that.

    There is also an implicit criticism (as naive or dupes) of those Dems and independents who believe Republicans who come to them with a smile on their face and a hearty handshake, rather than being a smarmy, snarly DeLay-type.  

    Or, as I say to a colleague:  "he's a Republican.  He is not your friend."

    We cannot de-contextualize Obama, nor can we allow clauses from his sentences to be removed.  They do change the meaning.  The same took place with the "bitter" comment - in whole, it read that one could understand that some of the people in small towns, screwed over by the system, would become bitter and cling to their guns and religion. Far different from calling them all bitter, small-minded yahoos.

    You're a lawyer and you understand both nuance and, for that matter, dependent clauses.
    -
    * No Tim Donaghy reference here, but I could make one.  
    ** TL could tell you for sure, but I recall that when it became evident there would be an opening, I called out Alito as the one who would be picked, a week or so before-hand.  

    That makes no sense, since Obama (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by MarkL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:50:37 PM EST
    originally had no opposition to Roberts at all.

    Parent
    I find that poor judgment (5.00 / 19) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:56:38 PM EST
    How come I and other KNEW Roberts was a Trojan Horse?

    I spent a good deal of time fighting against the Roberts nomination at daily kos, on the front page.

    Their current legal commenter, Adam B was a HUGE defender of John Roberts.

    How come, like Obama gets credit for HIS good judgment in opposing Iraq (I did too BTW), but I get NONE for my good judgment in raising a stink about Roberts?

    Parent

    You aren't running for office (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:11:37 PM EST
    The problem with Roberts was that he was going to get confirmed one way or the other.  A filibuster would have quickly become political poison the Democrats would have needed to relent.  

    Supreme Court confirmations are political high theater.  They are appellate hearings that no one cares about.  They are front page stories.  And the Republicans would have made sure that the entire country knew that the Democrats were blocking a highly qualified judge for purely political reasons.

    Roberts was going to get confirmed.  They had the votes.  Fighting it was pointless.

    This is why we need both a Democratic President and Congress.  We need to pick a 40 year progressive justice that can be on that court for the next 30 years combating Roberts, Alito, and Scalia.

    So far Roberts has been pretty much what most people expected. He isn't a radical in the mold of Thomas but he is most certainly a Conservative.  It could have been worse.

    Parent

    Obama was not in the Senate (5.00 / 7) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    for the Iraq vote. Does that mean his opposition means less? Would you argue there were reasonable arguments for voting for the Iraq War? I sure would not. It was a terrible mistake by the Dem pols in the Senate that did so.

    Parent
    Yes. I was against the war too. (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:36 PM EST
    But I wasn't a sitting Senator facing a vote on it.  It's not like he marched Washington.  He gave a very brief speech against the war at a time he was in a primary with 5 other candidates were all outspokenly against the war.  I give no credence to his claim that he demonstrated superior judgement.  I simply have no way of knowing how he would have voted.

    Parent
    Absolutely does (5.00 / 6) (#93)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:57 PM EST
    He came out in 2004 supporting the war, claiming he never, ever called for a troop withdrawal and he felt Bush was doing a good job with the war. His explanation for that last November when Tim Russert quoted him and called him out on his flip flop was that he needed to do it because he was supporting Kerry and it would have been irresponsible of him to take an opposing viewpoint.

    So, yes, his opposition does just mean less, it means nothing.


    Parent

    Kristen Breitweiss did ask where Obama was when (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by jawbone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:54:59 PM EST
    the antiwar forces could have used some good PR, some strong voices in their corner.  

    Wouldn't have been politically expedient for him to become too well known as antiwar until he knew which way the wind was blowing.

    So, to me, that makes a difference.

    However, as BTD so often notes, he's a pol and he does what pols do: Maintain viability. With lots of plausible deniablility and CYA.

    Parent

    Yep..doesn't say much for character, (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by Aqua Blue on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:52:16 PM EST
    backbone, fortitude.

    One thing that Obama does stand up for, and that is Obama.

    Change?   I don't think so.

    Parent

    yes it does (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:23:24 PM EST
    BTW (5.00 / 8) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:15:27 PM EST
    Roberts is extreme and dishonest. The worst of both worlds. I can not believe you are arguing that he is a mainstream conservative. In what world?

    Parent
    but but (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:18:04 PM EST
    he has dinner with gay men.
    I saw a photo of it.

    Parent
    how is JR (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:18:13 PM EST
    dishonest?  Intellectually or morally?

    Parent
    Surely you jest (5.00 / 7) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:58 PM EST
    Read my post tomorrow comparing his dissent here with his opinion in the school desgregation cases.

    He is utterly dishonest.

    Parent

    An aside. I'm appreciating your (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:05:54 PM EST
    devoting attention today to important legal issues.  

    Parent
    ok thanks (none / 0) (#99)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:36:30 PM EST
    i have heard him called lots of things, just never dishonest.  Again, this is the only blog i read legal or otherwise and I cannot ever remember JMM calling him dishonest.  

    Parent
    Jeralyn does not call Bush dishonest (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:39:23 PM EST
    You can not go by that.

    Parent
    I am quite disappointed Chief Justice (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:16:33 PM EST
    Roberts signed the dissenting opinion on this case.  Not that I would have expected him to sign the majority opinion.  But the language in the dissent is saber-rattling of the worst kind and I would expect any Chief Justice to reign in such language in any court opinion.

    Parent
    Why would it have been poison? (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:42:07 PM EST
    All they had to do was point out Robert's extremist positions and say that they could not in good conscience vote to support such a partisan candidate. Fighting is never pointless. I'm totally sick of hearing that Dems had to do something because of the politics. The right had no trouble whatsoever not confirming Clinton's judges, even though their refusal to do so caused backups in the courts, and it never cost them anything politically.

    We need a Democratic Congress that is willing to stand up for what they belive instead of telling us that they have to go along with the Republicans because of the politics. They are doing it again, right now, over unemployment comensation extensions.

    "But the White House already has threatened to veto the bill, and Senate Democrats have said they won't try and force their Republican colleagues to consider the House legislation."

    It would force Republicans to choose between voting against a popular bill and forcing Bush to veto this bill himeself. The horror. Dems can't put them into this awkward position, so the bill dies.

    A Dem President isn't going to fix anything. The right will not hesitate to obstruct at will, and will continue to do so until the Dems decide to actually stand up to them.

    Parent

    Those too afraid to fight (4.92 / 13) (#69)
    by Step Beyond on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:21:46 PM EST
    shouldn't be in politics.

    They could have blocked Roberts. They didn't try because they were too frightened of POSSIBLE backlash. Using that same thinking, so if the Repubs fight every progressive justice then the Dems should cave because of POSSIBLE backlash.

    Can't avoid telecom immunity - might have to fight.
    Can't impeach - might have to fight.
    Can't bring the troops home - might have to fight.
    Can't hold those who lie in front of Congress in contempt - might have to fight.

    To be clear, I'm not saying that Roberts was THE fight/stand. But rather that the excuse that the fight was pointless and poisonous is the very excuse the Dems are using for everything.

    If you are right. If you know you are right. You make the stand. Then you would be the hope I could believe in.

    Parent

    Exactly Right! (5.00 / 6) (#121)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:51:33 PM EST
    I am always disgusted by that excuse, we can't because....... Being a minority party hasn't slowed down the Republican on shutting down anything they disapprove of. This is a real problem I have over this whole unity garbage. The Republican's idea of unity is "either go along or get out of our way". I want a fighter in the WH who is going to stand up for my progressive values.

    Parent
    I agree 100% (5.00 / 6) (#161)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:37:31 PM EST
    That's why I don't buy into all this "must win or we're gonna all lose our jobs and rights" scenario of doom and gloom and sledgehammer unity the Obama campaign is selling.

    Who are these idiots more likely to stand up to? McCain or Obama? That's really the question that comes to mind.

    Parent

    Aye, that is the question. (none / 0) (#175)
    by hookfan on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:49:50 PM EST
    I hear this alot. But what, based on recent history with Bush, makes you think the Dems won't capitulate to McCain like they did with Bush? Obama, Imo, is showing his weakness. He appears unprincipled, and caves when called on issues or loyalties. Why, then, would a Dem congress not have more of a chance to prevent abuses from a green Obama, than from McCain, a Republican like Bush, whom they will capitulate too?

    Parent
    Frankly (5.00 / 5) (#180)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:53:56 PM EST
    I don't know that they would stand up to Obama either. If Obama decided to privatize social security would they all of sudden think it's a good idea? The way so many blogs and SD's quickly sold out their values during the primary I would think that there's no guarantee that they would stand up to Obama either.

    Parent
    If so (5.00 / 0) (#189)
    by hookfan on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:11:57 PM EST
    then there is not much hope for change from either side winning the election. If congress is willing to ignore the people and the well being of the nation, then in the short term we will be truly screwed. Sad. My only hope has been that congress and dem leadership has chosen Obama because they believe they can control him. McCain, not so much. The problem is what the heck does congress want? I'm not encouraged.

    Parent
    What does Congress want? (4.66 / 3) (#201)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:34:01 PM EST
    Obama's fund-raising machine, so far as I can determine.

    Parent
    yes (none / 0) (#59)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:17:25 PM EST
    but we are stuck with 4 of them for a might long time, well at least three anyway.  All the more reason to have 8 years in office in the event we need a replacement of one of the other 5.  I agree.

    Parent
    And if we don't (5.00 / 5) (#105)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:40:29 PM EST
    there is not one good reason for Dems to capitulate and confirm a nominee who takes the court too far to the right.  I am tired of their excuses.  We elect Dems to Congress too.

    Parent
    Well, ultimately he made the right decision (1.00 / 0) (#142)
    by tribe643 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:15:03 PM EST
    So, basically the entire basis of your post is that it shouldn't have been such a difficult decision for him and he should have strongly supported a fillibuster on either Roberts or Alito, even though Hillary voted the same as him on both the cloture motions and the final confirmation votes. It's as if you're holding him up to standards you refuse to even touch Hillary with.

    If roles were reversed and Hillary had won the nomination in the same manner Obama did and Obama supporters were constantly attacking our party's nominee in the same manner you and Jeralyn continue to such as this and unneccessary updates on the Rezko trial, you'd think it'd be considered a fair level of criticism? Just curious.

    Parent

    What is the (5.00 / 6) (#164)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:40:11 PM EST
    deal? Why are you obsessed with Hillary? It doesn't matter what she did or did not do. Obama's judgement is question mark here and he is the nominee.

    Parent
    I would expect a blog (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:23:43 PM EST
    dedicated to the politics of crime to report on the Rezko trial. A head in the sand doesn't change things.

    Parent
    Frankly (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:58:19 PM EST
    any argument that references anything "mainstream" is the biggest load of bollocks imaginable.

    The problem with "mainstream" is that it is constantly changing.  It's fickle, inconsistent, inconstant.  In other words, useless.  The same American public that approved of GWB post 9/11 now disapproves of him by almost the same amount.  Both of those were/are "mainstream" opinions.

    There is no "mainstream".  It's just weak argument people make because it sounds good and holds them to no standard at all.

    Parent

    Russ Feingold is the man..... (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Aqua Blue on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:06:36 PM EST
    He has my respect.

    Stands up for that which he believes (and he knows what he believes...

    unlike politicians just blowin' in the wind.

    Alito and Roberts appointments should have been fought tooth and nail by Democrats...even if they lost in the end.   Dems should go down fighting for what they believe in.  (Patrick Henry...ya know?)

    Our Supreme Court has become a joke...oh, wait...maybe not for a country that has become increasingly fascist.

    Parent

    nicley said (none / 0) (#42)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:03:36 PM EST
    I so agree with everything you have (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:03 PM EST
    said...and was deleted for saying having the same response to a post in the section on the SCOTUS decision. Just because Obama is the presumptive nominee it does not elevate his judgement capabilities, it just makes it "his" judgement. Personally, from what I've read, most of the time I agree with BTD's judgment, speaking for me only.

    oh boy (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    Who knew we'd be getting lectures on truth and tone from a trinity worshipped who considered rev. Wright a spiritual mentor.

    Instead distancing, dumping and resigning he were to address his former church similiarly about truth and tone, I, for one, might start giving him a second chance.

    distancing, dumping and resigning (4.85 / 7) (#46)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:08:25 PM EST
    I wonder if Obama would do that to the Democratic party if he could.

    He sounds like he has no loyalty to anything but power.  He should have been a Republican.  It would have been a harder slog and he probably would have had to move to a redder place, but he would have fit right in with the GOP.  

    Parent

    the guy (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:22:07 PM EST
    was LIEbermans protege.  what else do we really need to know.

    Parent
    I used to try to ignore that. (4.83 / 6) (#82)
    by Fabian on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:27:56 PM EST
    But now I wouldn't be at all surprised if Obama won the election and started having weekly strategy meetings with Republicans and telling Congress that "the time is not right" for various legislative initiatives.  He couldn't dump the Dems outright when they control Congress, but he could pretend to be their friends while "reaching across the aisle" to the GOP.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#60)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:17:28 PM EST
    Does this mean what I think it means?

    A majority of folks, including a number of Democrats and Independents, don't think that John Roberts is an ideologue bent on overturning every vestige of civil rights and civil liberties protections in our possession.

    ...a majority of Americans think that the President should probably get the benefit of the doubt on a clearly qualified nominee.

    My interpretation: Don't be so hard on the Democrats for following the polls!

    Of course, we now know that Obama was inclined to follow the polls too, but ultimately decided the political calculus counseled in favor of voting against the nomination.

    My frustration is not that we didn't win the Roberts confirmation fight, because clearly it was unwinnable without a much different Senate.  My frustration is that we didn't even get to prove a point, to set up an argument where we could point back at a time like this and say, "See, this is why we opposed Roberts, we told you this would happen."

    If Roberts shouldn't be on the Supreme Court, then you should oppose him.  You don't have to squander all your political capital on an unwinnable fight, but you should at least make your arguments and get your position out there.  Then you have a better chance to defeat the next Roberts, by saying "we let the last one get confirmed, and look what happened."

    This seems like an appropriate moment to refer back to my one and only appearance on the front page at Daily Kos.  That is, if anyone here clicks orange links any more.

    To me Roberts was worth fighting (5.00 / 9) (#67)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:20:10 PM EST
    in order to stop Alito.

    when people like Leahy and Feingold voted for Roberts, Alito' or someone like him was assured of approval.

    Parent

    Yeah (5.00 / 8) (#89)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:12 PM EST
    The larger problem, it seems to me, is that our side doesn't really have a coherent narrative on judges at all.  The other side has their standard talking points that are very popular with the base - "judges should interpret the law and not make it, judges should defer to elected legislatures and not be black-robed tyrants, etc." - and this plays a big part in keeping their caucus unified.  When Roberts or Alito comes up, Democrats are basically all over the place and can't even agree on what the party line is.

    Obama has a bully pulpit as well as an understanding of constitutional law, and he could have helped to start making that case.  Instead he was too interested in lecturing the liberals on how we shouldn't be so demanding.  Kinda funny to look back at the time when Obama was vilified in the blogosphere for doing the exact same stuff he still does today.

    Parent

    so how come hillary (none / 0) (#96)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:34:44 PM EST
    didn't lead the filibuster?

    Parent
    Because Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#102)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:38:47 PM EST
    has not been a leader in the Senate on a lot of issues where I'd like her to be, sort of like Obama.

    Parent
    None of them has (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:44:50 PM EST
    when you get down to it.

    Blech.  What's happened to the adversarial relationship, and look at what's happened as a result.

    Parent

    Sure (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:59:24 PM EST
    One of the reasons many of us were excited about Obama's election in 2004 is that he seemed to have the potential to fill that gap.  He didn't.  Somehow, we jumped him to the head of the line even though he didn't.

    Parent
    Hillary has a record (5.00 / 10) (#116)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:48:44 PM EST
    that is sufficiently long that we can more confidently deduce where she stands on particular issues, by looking at when and where she has put her money where her mouth was and acted on the same or similar issues or situations in the past.  Obama's record is minimal, not only by his lack of experience, but also often by the design of voting present or skipping votes altogether.  And his statements on policies and principles are often nothing more than content neutral double-speak.  

    If you wanted to make an educated guess as to what kind of judges Hillary would select, or for that matter McCain, as president, you'd have a heckuva lot more to go on.

    Hillary has enough of a record that I don't feel I'd have to look at the Roberts situation in particular in order to take a reading on where she stands generally.  What the heck else do I have to look at when it comes to Obama?  Or am I just supposed to take a hopeful leap of faith when it comes to The One?

    Parent

    I'd add the SOP issue too (5.00 / 5) (#94)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:32:29 PM EST
    Roberts was worth raising at least a ruckus on, even if there was no plan to go to the mat, not only to lay the groundwork for defense against the inevitable nomination of an Alito, but also to empower the role of the Senate in the separation of powers.  Senators shouldn't be in the habit of just rolling over for executive appointments.  They should protect the vitality of their institution.  A spine comes in handy from time to time.

    Parent
    fighting both Roberts and Alito (5.00 / 6) (#148)
    by noholib on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:21:52 PM EST
    I thought it was a clear imperative then, at the time, to vote against Roberts and against Alito.  I thought filibusters were worth the effort, especially against Alito.  It was obvious to anyone who was paying attention that these were two very bright and very hard-right conservative justices.  Just because they weren't foaming at the mouth didn't make them not dangerous ...

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 9) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:21:40 PM EST
    ACBonin, now AdamB, was a BIG Roberts supporter.

    To me that is a the equivalent of being an Iraq War supporter.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:50 PM EST
    I don't want to say anything, lest I find myself arguing before Judge AdamB at the Third Circuit a year or two from now.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:54:52 PM EST
    I'm opposed to all of their judges as long as they're intent on recruiting them from the Federalist Society swamp, but how is it remotely comparable to supporting preemptive and unjustified wars?

     A lot of the other criticism is valid, but that just seems silly.  His dissent today was alarming, to be sure, but however misguided supporters of a yes vote for him in the senate, it is nothing close to the Iraq war.

    Parent

    I think your comment is silly (5.00 / 5) (#157)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:32:33 PM EST
    You make the Supreme Court seem a trivial issue. Amazing.

    Parent
    My interpretation (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by riddlerandy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:56:39 PM EST
    when I want to appoint progressives to the bench as President, I should be given the benefit of the doubt by gopers who otherwise might want to fillibuster

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:02:08 PM EST
    Fair point.  But is there any evidence to suggest the Republicans actually do unto us as we did unto them?

    Hey, if Obama gets elected and he has no problem getting his agenda through Congress because the Republicans are all like "hey, he was totally collegial towards us back in the day, it's the least we can do," then I'll admit I was wrong about everything.

    Parent

    You also might consider (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:16:54 PM EST
    another aspect of it - whether taking that collegial approach makes it more likely that independents and R's will view you positively and vote for you. You can't enact your agenda if you don't get through the door.

    Parent
    What? (5.00 / 5) (#145)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:18:18 PM EST
    How the hell do any of them know what "a majority of Americans think" about Roberts - or anything for that matter.

    What an unmitigated crock.

    They are talking through their respective hats just to justify some action that they would have taken anyway.

    It just seems so unspeakably arrogant for a pol to tell us what "a majority of Americans think."

    That's how we got into the war.

    Parent

    nice argument (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:19:19 PM EST
    thanks.

    Parent
    Kos comments (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by zebedee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:17:44 PM EST
    Amusing to read the comments on D Kos to this Obama post way back in 2005. They were applauding his judgement on this and though he had even less experience than now, anointing him as our savior and drooling for him to be president.

    who has time to keep all this in mind (5.00 / 6) (#65)
    by blogtopus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:19:19 PM EST
    when you're running, running, running for the biggest and the bestest?

    Power hungry. That's the man; he hasn't stayed long enough in any position of power before he moves onto the next one up the ladder. Do we honestly think he's going to be content with the restrictions on the CIC's powers when he comes into office? What's beyond President of the United States? High Gorgo, Emperor of Earth?

    Hell, I don't know. But like Chief Justice Roberts, I'm entitled to my opinion.

    Actually, his reasoning was fairly nuanced (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:29:51 PM EST
    and based on more than that.

    From his statement on his vote on Roberts:

    the decision with respect to Judge Roberts' nomination has not been an easy one for me to make....

    I am sorely tempted to vote for Judge Roberts based on my study of his resume, his conduct during the hearings, and a conversation I had with him yesterday afternoon.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Judge Roberts is qualified to sit on the highest court in the land. Moreover, he seems to have the comportment and the temperament that makes for a good judge. He is humble, he is personally decent, and he appears to be respectful of different points of view. It is absolutely clear to me that Judge Roberts truly loves the law. ...

    The problem I face ...is that while adherence to legal precedent and rules of statutory or constitutional construction will dispose of 95 percent of the cases that come before a court, so that both a Scalia and a Ginsburg will arrive at the same place most of the time on those 95 percent of the cases -- what matters on the Supreme Court is those 5 percent of cases that are truly difficult. In those cases, adherence to precedent and rules of construction and interpretation will only get you through the 25th mile of the marathon. That last mile can only be determined on the basis of one's deepest values, one's core concerns, one's broader perspectives on how the world works, and the depth and breadth of one's empathy.

    ...In those circumstances, your decisions about whether affirmative action is an appropriate response to the history of discrimination in this country or whether a general right of privacy encompasses a more specific right of women to control their reproductive decisions or whether the commerce clause empowers Congress to speak on those issues of broad national concern that may be only tangentially related to what is easily defined as interstate commerce, whether a person who is disabled has the right to be accommodated so they can work alongside those who are nondisabled -- in those difficult cases, the critical ingredient is supplied by what is in the judge's heart.

    I talked to Judge Roberts about this. Judge Roberts confessed that, unlike maybe professional politicians, it is not easy for him to talk about his values and his deeper feelings. That is not how he is trained. He did say he doesn't like bullies and has always viewed the law as a way of evening out the playing field between the strong and the weak.

    I was impressed with that statement because I view the law in much the same way. The problem I had is that when I examined Judge Roberts' record and history of public service, it is my personal estimation that he has far more often used his formidable skills on behalf of the strong in opposition to the weak. In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.

    I want to take Judge Roberts at his word that he doesn't like bullies and he sees the law and the Court as a means of evening the playing field between the strong and the weak. But given the gravity of the position to which he will undoubtedly ascend and the gravity of the decisions in which he will undoubtedly participate during his tenure on the Court, I ultimately have to give more weight to his deeds and the overarching political philosophy that he appears to have shared with those in power than to the assuring words that he provided me in our meeting....

    So he basically said outright that he thought Roberts was dissembling. And like HRC he also voted no because of the WH's withholding of documents on Roberts' record that would give them more opportunity to make an informed judgment.

    And I doubt he would have written that dkos diary today. He's become much more overtly partisan through this campaign, thanks in good part to Hillary.

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:12:59 PM EST
    That is a way more promising view of Obama, from the one pumped up here. Sounds good to me.

    BTW- Isn't Leahy a liberal who was taken in by Roberts? I couldn't believe that he voted for the guy. My take at the time was that Roberts was a stealth candidate chosen precisely for his scant public record, and BushCo refusal to release documents made him even more suspicious.

    Parent

    Feingold was taken in too, (3.00 / 0) (#151)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    rather disappointingly. He gave the benefit of the doubt to the president having the appointments he wanted when there wasn't enough evidence to base a no vote on. Obama's defense of Leahy and others was that criticism of them was too black-and-white and missed the complexities of the situation. I think he's learned a bit more about politics since then and wouldn't say such a silly thing now.

    Parent
    Yes I Know (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:33:38 PM EST
    I really did not understand any of that nonsense. The unending theme was that we (the Democratic Senators) should wait for the big one to really fight against.  Save their strength?

    And the GOP played them like a violin.

    Parent

    The fact that he was going to vote (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:14:42 PM EST
    for him before he voted against him makes him a dissembler.

    We don't know what Obama stands for.

    Until he tells me, I'm uncommitted.

    Parent

    Really? (4.00 / 2) (#156)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:28:49 PM EST
    Is that because once your gut takes over the brain ceases to exist?
    Not that I am a fan of Obama, but it does seem that in the end he made the right decision.

    He is not a fighter, like Kennedy. That is for sure. I prefer to hope that the guy will listen to those left of center and nudge those from the right to our side.

    What else is there to hope for? We must hold his feet to the fire, and at least in the Roberts vote he seemed to listen and adjust.

    Parent

    He apparently "adjusted" (5.00 / 5) (#159)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:35:45 PM EST
    because his political advisors saw trouble on the horizon of his Presidential hopes.  Assuming he is elected President, such an adjustment will not be necessary.  

    Parent
    Where Did You Read That? (none / 0) (#167)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:42:57 PM EST
    I have seen it repeated over and over here but never with a link.

    Parent
    Hat tip to Steve M up thread in (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:48:23 PM EST
    response to my question:

    LINK

    Parent

    Yes I Read That (5.00 / 0) (#188)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:09:49 PM EST
    When it came out. If that is what this is all about, pretty thin gruel. Seems like the sort of line that feeds Obama hate, if you dislike him.

    From Alien Abductee's link above it seems to be a bit more than pandering.

    In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.

    More of that please.

    And I for one would hold it against Obama had he voted for Roberts, as I hold it against all the other Dems who did not listen to their constituents or advisors.

    I wish Hillary would have pandered to me and not made her war vote. I have opined over and over that Obama, were in the Senate would have also voted for the resolution, but lucked out. Now I am thinking that with advisors like Pete Rouse perhaps he would have taken the great risk and voted against the AUMF.

    We will never know.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:25:24 PM EST
    And I for one would hold it against Obama had he voted for Roberts, as I hold it against all the other Dems who did not listen to their constituents or advisors.

    Obama's constituents never asked him to vote against war-funding?

    I find that hard to believe.

    Parent

    Evidentially Not (none / 0) (#203)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:42:44 PM EST
    Nor did Hillary's, and I hold that against them both. And I think that both of them are terrible regarding their positions regarding the WOT/Iraq.

    For me they are both pols, and not to be trusted. Basically the same but way better than the GOP. Personally I like Hillary more than Obama, call it style or whatever,  but as far as policy/votes go they are centrist democrats with very little differences.

    That is why I can't understand the level of cult like adoration for one and contempt for the other be it Obama or Clinton.

    Parent

    google it yourself.... (none / 0) (#206)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:58:40 PM EST
    you are on a computer aren't you?  What is this obsession with links?  Is it standard Obamabot talk?  Did you ask for "links" to anything that was ever said about Clinton?

    Parent
    his isn't about this decision. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:37:47 PM EST
    This is about the whole of Obama's stances.

    Please stop with the you're not a fan nonsense.

    You are a fan.

    Parent

    Pie....at last it has been said...I often wonder (5.00 / 3) (#190)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    about proclaiming they are not for obama, yet continually uprate many, many of the pro-obama posts by the usual suspect that come in here to rile up the troops.  I am pro-Hillary and proud of it, as who have supported her should be...anybody with a tad of brain power knows there are shenanigans afoot brought on by possible collusion amongst the DNC, the party elders and the obama camp.

    Parent
    Your posting name doesn't help, (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:42:34 PM EST
    btw.  Reminds me of a cult member named Squeaky Fromme.

    Parent
    Sorry (2.00 / 1) (#181)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:55:04 PM EST
    I am not here to help you, win you over, and certainly do not give a sh*t what you think of my comments here, or my TL name. Especially considering that you seem to still be fighting a cult war, with all those horrible Obamamaniacs who did you wrong at whatever site you escaped from to take refuge here.


    Parent
    Agree (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:43:03 PM EST
    I see so many commenters here refer to his thinking about voting for Roberts and ultimately voting against him as an indictment. Haven't we all wished that Bush would have listened to alternate opinions before making the decisions he has made? Think about where we'd be if the "backstory" on Bush was that he was thinking about bombing Iraq but Powell talked him out of it. We have allowed ourselves to be taken in by the right's rhetoric that changing your mind is a "flip-flop" and is a sign that you can't be trusted. I would think it would be heartening to people to know that he listened to his advisors and in the end, made the right decision. Obama is by no means perfect (just look at his reaction to the Johnson VP vetter thing--abysmal), but I would rather know that the mistakes that he will undoubtedly make will be informed ones--if that makes sense.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 7) (#196)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:23:43 PM EST
    No, you get no points for "listening to your advisors" if what your advisors tell you is that voting the opposite way will work out better for you politically.  If Obama had changed his mind because he sat down with a sheaf of Roberts' opinions and concluded "no, I was wrong to want to vote for this guy, he's a dangerous ideologue," we wouldn't be having the same conversation.

    Parent
    I don't disagree with you (none / 0) (#205)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:48:30 PM EST
    that it was a highly political decision. It was still the right one and not very many made the right vote that day. We don't really know everything that went into his decision.

    Parent
    His lack of progressive credentials (5.00 / 8) (#86)
    by mmc9431 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:30:07 PM EST
    Should have been apparent to anyone that has followed his career. I have been amazed at how readily people bought the package. None of his statements whether it's gay rights, education, or healthcare have been what I would call progressive. And his voting record in the Senate has been shakey too. He voted for the Patriot Acr. That we would find no fault in Robert's was no surprise to me.

    I'm still waiting (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:40:40 PM EST
    for the commenter named "Spike" to tell m about Obama's pregressive creds.  He refused when asked the other day.  Said we wouldn't want to hear it or some such nonsense.

    Heh.

    Parent

    it's interesting too, because the same post (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
    has this nugget:

    "Too often, the "centrist" label seems to mean compromise for compromise sake, whereas on issues like health care, energy, education and tackling poverty, I don't think Democrats have been bold enough.  But I do think that being bold involves more than just putting more money into existing programs and will instead require us to admit that some existing programs and policies don't work very well.  And further, it will require us to innovate and experiment with whatever ideas hold promise (including market- or faith-based ideas that originate from Republicans).

    Am I to assume that his lack of boldness is because he hasn't had the staff? Or the time to think about healthcare?  Or what?  I mean I'm not even an expert, but I've got a copy of the national institute of medicine report on improving insurance and the robert wood johnson anthology on improving health care.  There are plenty of ideas out there...

    Parent

    If there are two words/phrases I wish (5.00 / 9) (#88)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:09 PM EST
    Obama would excise from his vocabulary, they are "folks" and "the notion that..."

    Picky, I know, but I remember when Bush spoke to the nation the morning of the 9/11 attacks and referred to the perpetrators as "folks," it just grated on my ears.

    Vocabulary aside, figuring out where, exactly, Obama stands, or what he believes in, is like trying to pick little pieces of eggshell out of a broken egg - just when you think you have a piece, it slides out of your grasp.

    What does he believe?  Where does he draw the line?  If he's elected, can we expect to see a Bob Casey nominated to the Court?  A Joe Lieberman?  How are we supposed to have any idea whether those he appoints are likely to uphold Constitutional principles that need safeguarding?

    So what if a majority of "folks" - including Democrats and Independents - didn't think Roberts was an ideologue?  Is that how Obama makes his decisions - always looking for the safe harbor?

    And, if elected, who will he be listening to when it's time to nominate someone to the Court - his new evangelical friends, his Republican friends, who?  Will the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party (and no, Howard Dean, I am most definitely NOT referring to you) have a seat at that table, be part of that conversation?

    I'm sorry, at every turn I see more reluctance to hold to any position, and I return to my long-standing belief about Obama: he has no idea who he is or what he believes in, and I think people like that in positions of power are exceptionally dangerous.

    [sorry for the length]

    His judgment on Roberts (5.00 / 9) (#92)
    by vcmvo2 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:51 PM EST
    was quite conservative. It was one of the reasons that I did not support Obama in the primary. Giving this President his preference in nominees means that he never really understood his obligation to "advise and consent" on nominees. It is not a rubber stamp or a mere formality.

    Let the decision today be a warning on that tendency to reach across the aisle and compromise. The Republicans have no intention of compromising on their agenda. They see Democrats willingness to do so as a weakness that they can exploit.

    Under Obama's principle on nominees, Bork would be a Supreme Court Justice. A little more Kennedy combativeness would be a good thing here.

    Was that comment by (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:37:47 PM EST
    Scalia part of his dissent?

    Doesn't sound very judicial to me.

    More like propaganda one could read at right-wing sites.

    What an embarrassment those guys are.

    Yes. See the first two paragraphs (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:49:42 PM EST
    of the Scalia dissent:

    Scalia

    P.S.  Click on "no thanks" unless you would like to donate.

    Parent

    He's such a tool. (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:54:17 PM EST
    And McCain wants to appoint (none / 0) (#132)
    by riddlerandy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:58:00 PM EST
    more of them

    Parent
    I'm looking at a flyer from Obama (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:39:50 PM EST
    camp that I lifted from my mother's.  Not only does it tell me we are the ones we've been looking for, but also that he doesn't want to re-fight the fights from the 1990s.  Does anyone know what this means?  The fights like appointing a liberal civil rights attorney general?  It took three tries before Deval Patrick was selected and finally confirmed.  Were they fights over Souter or Ginsbergs?  I can't remember.  Who is it that wants to re-fight these fights and why?

    Sorry, we are the ones... (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:42:42 PM EST
    we've been "waiting" for, not looking for.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 6) (#126)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:54:38 PM EST
    Refight the Nineties?

    Best essay of this campaign season, in my book.

    Parent

    One the best passages ... (5.00 / 5) (#154)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:27:36 PM EST
    from Frank's essay:

    I agree that it would have been better not to have had to fight over some of the issues that occupied us in the nineties. But there would have been only one way to avoid them -- and that would have been to give up. More importantly, the only way I can think of to avoid "refighting the same fights we had in the 1990's", to quote Senator Obama, is to let our opponents win these fights without a struggle.

    Bravo, Barney!

    I sent this to some of my Obama supporting friends at the time.  The responses were just of the "But Hillary" variety.

    Parent

    Excellent link, Steve M. (5.00 / 4) (#171)
    by shoephone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:45:05 PM EST
    This little excerpt crystalizes things for me:

    In some cases, Senator Obama does not seem to remember what some of the fights of the nineties were. I agree that it would be a good thing to have the 2008 election be in part "about whether to...pass universal health care" but that in fact is one of the central fights we had in the nineties. The effort of many of us to pass a universal health care plan is precisely one of the battles of the nineties, and it seems to me one that we very much want to keep fighting. Again, the only alternative to fighting it is losing it by concession.


    Parent
    I remember that post... (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:15:28 PM EST
    I remember reading it through, and thinking that while it had some well-constructed language, that it went on and on and in the end had very little point.

    What's past is prologue, as they say.

    Here the reactions of Senators McCain (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:18:45 PM EST
    and Obama on the campaign trail to the Guantanamo opinions:

    Obama and McCain

    Sen. McCain's reaction is predictable; he agrees with Roberts.

    As to Obama, he fails to strongly endorse the majority opinion; instead he states Bush administration's endlessly detaining unlawful combatants at Gitmo isn't an effective means to fight terrorism.

    You would think (5.00 / 5) (#152)
    by stillife on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:25:58 PM EST
    that given his media darling status, he could at least take a stand on an issue that should be a no-brainer for a so-called progressive.

    Parent
    That is what you and I would think; but (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:28:07 PM EST
    we would not be thinking of all those independent and Republican potential Obama voters.

    Parent
    Once again (5.00 / 3) (#173)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:47:41 PM EST
    it's strong and wrong vs. weak and right. Ugh. Can Obama say anything that doesn't come off as some sort of lecture?

    Parent
    Right on ....re Obama's lecture mode (5.00 / 4) (#198)
    by Aqua Blue on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:27:28 PM EST
    I am sick of getting lectured and talked down to.

    Obama's arrogance gets on my last nerve.

    Parent

    worrisome (5.00 / 5) (#149)
    by candideinnc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:22:50 PM EST
    I will vote Obama because the alternative is unthinkable.  That said, I am worried.  

    I am worried that he selected Lieberman as the senator who would be his mentor when he joined the senate.  I am worried he endorsed Lieberman over the progressive candidate.  I am worried that he has infused religion in his campaign.  I am worried that he selected a homophobe that endorses sexual "conversion" to campaign for him.  I am worried that he has suggested that Social Security could be privatized.  I am worried that he argued that universal health care coverage might require mandatory invovement of the taxpayer.  I am worried that anyone would suggest he should select Webb or Nunn or some Republican as his running mate.  I am worried that he didn't foresee the disaster of a chief justice that Bush selected.  Is he really a liberal?

    "Is he really a liberal? " (5.00 / 6) (#153)
    by otherlisa on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:27:29 PM EST
    Nope.

    Parent
    He isn't anything. (5.00 / 6) (#178)
    by davnee on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:51:39 PM EST
    He's not a liberal.  He's not a conservative.  He's not even a centrist.  He's just a product that is driven by sales.  That's why it is so easy for him to put anybody and everybody under the bus.  The only reason he is a Dem at all is the happenstance of starting his political career in Chicago.  If he was in a red state, he'd be the J.C. Watts (only even more successful) of the Republican Party.

    Parent
    Why? (none / 0) (#169)
    by candideinnc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:44:22 PM EST
    Why did Kennedy and Kerry endorse him?  Do they know something we don't, or is it all about race or power or something else?

    Parent
    Also, Roberts' opinion (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:41:52 PM EST
    on the schools case was clearly outside the mainstream as it virtually overturned Brown v. Board of Education.

    Thankfully, it was tempered somewhat by Kennedy's concurring opinion.

    But had Roberts' opinion been applied in total, it's very hard to argue that the Brown precedent still applied.  And fairly easy to argue that we were returning to the "separate but equal" notion of Plessy v. Ferguson.

    Actually, that's disbelief. (5.00 / 0) (#186)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:04:18 PM EST
    Whatever.  It was pretty stunning.

    I remember the day you, BTD, (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 08:07:19 PM EST
    in your other life as Armando, moved this to the front page. I believe that the response that Obama got from the Kossacks pretty well chased him away. At the time, I didn't even comment because truthfully, I was totally confused by what he was trying to do. He said one thing, changed his mind, voted differently and then defended the reason for his fellow Senators who voted for Roberts.  

    Some of these issues can not be left to (none / 0) (#120)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:50:17 PM EST
    our leaders to blaze the trail.  Congress basically abdicated their responsibility w.r.t. Iraq by giving the President the authority to attack and extracting themselves from the final decision.  But, had they not, they would have been embroiled in a drawn out conflict over whether we should fight, and it most certainly would have been used against each and every one of them.

    Perhaps Donald from Hawaii can relay what happened to some of the elected Democrats who stood up for gay rights in that state.  They were targeted for removal by the Catholic Church, weren't they?

    My expectation is that more people will be speaking their minds on the next few SCOTUS nominee.  Communication channels have greatly improved since the last appointment, and the increased number of progressive rank and file Democrats along with the takeover of Congress this fall will help ensure more liberal appointments.

    Huh? (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:53:37 PM EST
    Communication channels have greatly improved since the last appointment, and the increased number of progressive rank and file Democrats along with the takeover of Congress this fall will help ensure more liberal appointments.

    Talk about a fairy tale.  What evidence do you have for that comment?

    Parent

    I'm referring to the increased use of online (none / 0) (#147)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:19:25 PM EST
    information, and more importantly, the number of people involved in publishing or presenting information.  Blogs obviously have their downfalls, but last time around most people grumbled about the nominee over their coffee.  This time, anyone with a strong opinion can publish it.  It's also easier now to organize public resistance to bad nominees.  

    Parent
    I recall quite well (5.00 / 4) (#160)
    by shoephone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:36:58 PM EST
    that during the Alito hearings there was a HUGE campaign from the blogs -- Crooks and Liars and FDL among them -- to get Democrats on the Judiciary Committee to push back against his nomination. Many of us stepped up and joined the effort... to no avail.

    One reason I cannot support Biden as a VP choice is his pathetic, embarrassing performance during the Alito hearings, modeling his silly Yale baseball cap and declaring himself and Alito brothers in arms via the Ivy League.

    To say there was not a major communications effort at play during the Alito (and Roberts) hearings is to wipe the memory slate clean.

    My memories are intact.

    Parent

    Agreed (3.00 / 0) (#177)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:50:48 PM EST
    I just think we have more power now.  Even the people who aren't paying attention are reachable.  I want to focus on organizing some of that power.

    Parent
    And I think you are kidding yourself, (5.00 / 3) (#204)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:45:33 PM EST
    because it fits so neatly into your love affair with the "Yes, We Can" movement; you think he wants what you want, but the only thing he wants is your vote.

    Much of what you say seems to have come right out of an advertising seminar, but that's probably because that's where Obama has come from - he's nothing more than a huge infomercial campaign.  And while all the spam and junk mail and profusion of advertising may make it into my mailbox or my In Box, I'm still not buying what Obama is trying to sell me.

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by pie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:44:48 PM EST
    It's also easier now to organize public resistance to bad nominees.  

    It's not enough to ORGANIZE.

    You have to INFLUENCE.

    The blogs do little there.

    Parent

    Well, elected officials in Mass. (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:22:55 PM EST
    who stood up for gay rights didn't lose any seats.  Did any in Hawaii?  You say they were targeted, but the Catholic Church does that sort of thing all the time.  Wasn't Cuomo excommunicated or something?

    In fact, a long, hard fight by PACs in Mass. turned a legislature which was mostly willing to go along with amending its Constitution to negate the pro-gay marriage decision by its SCt into a solid rejection of same.  It started with a few legislators who were willing to stand up and fight, to go on record with a stand on principles.  You know, principles?

    I'm just at a loss to understand this reasoning:  There's no evidence that Obama will do anything progressive, but I'm sure once he has power he'll be Mr. Super Liberal.  After all, we have better communications now!

    Parent

    In Hawaii, the Catholic Church (4.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:22:27 PM EST
    through one of their political arms, the Hawaii Family Forum, organizes against gay rights.  Last year they came out en mass to fight a civil unions bill in the State Legislature.  Apparently, the elected officials had learned their lesson years ago when those who stood up for gay rights were specifically targeted for replacement, and not to be too stereotypical, but many low information voters in Hawaii get their voting directions from their church.  In this instance, the Legislative reps holding a public forum on civil unions for gays (HB908) decided to wimp out and shelve the issue rather than take a stand for equality. After hours of testimony with gay parents practically pleading for equal rights for their families, Tommy Waters (Dem) and the rest of the Judiciary committee voted to shelve the civil unions bill.

    Like I've said before on TL, as with racial inequalities, it's going to take straight people standing up for gay rights before anything changes in this country, and as long as we don't have equality, gay rights will continue to be used as a wedge issue against Democrats.

    Parent

    You may be at a loss for understanding it (none / 0) (#202)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:36:47 PM EST
    because it's not what I said.

    There's no evidence that Obama will do anything progressive, but I'm sure once he has power he'll be Mr. Super Liberal.  After all, we have better communications now!

    Please don't put words in my mouth.

    Parent

    Honestly, this is who Obama is (none / 0) (#184)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:59:12 PM EST
    I still believe that he will appoint good judges, but his judgement on Roberts was clearly lacking.

    This is a minor issue long past, (none / 0) (#208)
    by WillBFair on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 09:08:55 PM EST
    and I don't see the point in hashing it.
    I'm just grouchy that we've lost the Clinton's precise, ballanced, sensible, practical, and elegant speeches, and are stuck instead with Obama's meaninless  rhetoric. And sad about loosing people I can trust to make the best policy decisions, and having to worry that Obama will to screw things up royally.
    Selfish I know, but I like being able to forget about politics occassionally.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com