Thursday News and Open Thread

I absolutely have to get back to work. I have jails to visit and briefs to write. Here's what I would be writing about if I had the time:

  • Never leave a reporter and two lawyers on a jury. Here's a report of the Uma Thurman jury deliberations from a reporter who served on the jury. On the other hand, perhaps he just helped the defendant in a bid for a new trial.

    Tuesday morning, when we reconvened, a couple of my fellow jurors said they woke up sick to their stomachs. Another burst into the room saying he'd seen the drawings sketched by the court artists, and that they'd done a good job depicting us.

    Aren't the jurors admonished to avoid media reports of the trial? Where would s/he have seen the sketch artist's depictions but in a newspaper?


As for not leaving a lawyer on the jury,

I had a question. The charge was for the period from May 1, 2005, until Aug. 17, 2007, but Mr. Jordan's obsession wasn't pushed over the edge until August last year. Could we say he was guilty of the stalking charge, if he wasn't stalking her for that entire period?

One of the lawyers on the jury said that his behavior wasn't to be interpreted in a vacuum. Each of his actions during that period -- from the praying-girl card Mr. Jordan delivered at the movie set to the notes he pushed through her door -- was to be interpreted as one criminal act.

If that was the case, then I could say he was guilty.

  • The F.B.I. has withdrawn a National Security Letter.

    The FBI has withdrawn an unconstitutional national security letter (NSL) issued to the Internet Archive after a legal challenge from the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). As the result of a settlement agreement, the FBI withdrew the NSL and agreed to the unsealing of the case, finally allowing the Archive's founder to speak out for the first time about his battle against the record demand.

    The ACLU has this press release.

    NSLs are secretly issued by the government to obtain access to personal customer records from Internet Service Providers, financial institutions, and credit reporting agencies. In almost all cases, recipients of the NSLs are forbidden, or "gagged," from disclosing that they have received the letters. The ACLU has challenged this Patriot Act statute in federal court in two other cases where the judges found the gags unconstitutional: one involving an Internet Service Provider (ISP); the second, a group of librarians. In the ISP case, the district court invalidated the entire NSL statute. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit is expected to hear oral arguments in the government's appeal of that case next month.

    Since the Patriot Act was passed in 2001, relaxing restrictions on the FBI's use of the power, the number of NSLs issued has seen an astronomical increase, to nearly 200,000 between 2003 and 2006. EFF's investigations have uncovered multiple NSL misuses, including an improper NSL issued to North Carolina State University.

  • There will be a Senate committee hearing on Iraq today, specifically, an oversight hearing on waste, fraud and corruption in Iraq.


    The U.S. Senate Democratic Policy Committee will conduct a hearing on Monday, May 12 at 2:00 PM to examine the impact of American. reconstruction and anti-corruption failures on the U.S. mission in Iraq, Chairman Byron Dorgan (D-ND) announced Wednesday.

    Witnesses will include two former Bush Administration officials who served in top posts in Iraq, and a retired two-star General with extensive experience in peace-keeping operations in Bosnia and as a civilian administrator for the United Nations in Kosovo.

  • Students for a Sensible Drug Policy protested the sensationalized San Diego student drug bust by holding a mock graduation ceremony:

    SDSU students and a group of concerned parents will hold a mock graduation ceremony with 77 “missing” students today in protest of Tuesday’s announcement of a massive drug sting orchestrated by the DEA with the help of SDSU officials. Officials have described the five-month sting as a response to two recent fatal drug overdoses on campus, but those gathered today are criticizing the DEA’s show of force as counterproductive and are calling on the university to enact a life-saving Good Samaritan Policy that encourages students to call for help during a drug overdose emergency.

    Today’s demonstration...will display 77 empty chairs and diplomas, symbolizing the 75 students arrested in the sting, as well as the two students who died recently of preventable drug overdoses. Large banners will be hoisted that read: “77 students are gone, but drug abuse isn’t” and “Save lives. Enact a Good Samaritan Policy.”

    Their point:

    “Sensational drug stings will do nothing to reduce the demand for drugs on campus, nor will they decrease the supply for these drugs for more than a few days,” said Randy Hencken, president of SSDP at SDSU. “ So long as students have the desire to use illegal drugs, and so long as the prohibition of drugs sustains a lucrative black market, drug stings will do little more than create openings for others to step in and supply drugs to SDSU students. This is a complicated problem that requires complex solutions but the discussion needs to start here.”

  • Lawyers for Gitmo Detainees Accuse U.S. of Spying on their meetings with clients.

    In interviews and a court filing Tuesday, lawyers for detainees at Guantánamo said they believed government agents had monitored their conversations. The assertions are the most specific to date by Guantánamo lawyers that officials may be violating legal principles that have generally kept government agents from eavesdropping on lawyers.

    “I think they are listening to my telephone calls all the time,” said John A. Chandler, a prominent lawyer in Atlanta and Army veteran who represents six Guantánamo detainees.

    Several of the lawyers, including partners at large corporate law firms, said the concerns had changed the way they went about their work apart from Guantánamo cases. A lawyer in Chicago, H. Candace Gorman, said in an affidavit that she was no longer accepting new clients of any type because she could not assure them of confidentiality.

    The Center for Constitutional Rights filed the suit.

    The new filing, by the Center for Constitutional Rights, came in a 2007 lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act in which Guantánamo lawyers are seeking records to determine whether they have been targets of surveillance.

    The Justice Department declined to comment Tuesday. But in a legal response in March, its lawyers said they could neither confirm nor deny that detainees’ lawyers had been targets of such surveillance “because doing so would compromise the United States Intelligence Communities sources and methods.”

    Here's the deal: They tell you you are being video-monitored without sound for your own protection when meeting with your client.

If you find other news of interest, please feel free to post in the comments.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Obama fundraising is nuts (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Kensdad on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:46:09 AM EST
    yesterday i got my first fundraising call from the obama campaign (i have been a donor, volunteer and strong supporter of the clinton campaign)...  first, i was asked if i supported obama (me: "no"); then the fundraiser said, "oh, you are still supporting Hillary Clinton (me: "yes"); then i was told that it was important to beat john mccain, so would i like to donate to obama (me: "no");  then, i was asked if they could send me some materials in the mail because i might be feeling differently in a month (me: "no");  then, she finally asked if i would vote for obama in the fall (me: "i will have to think about it")...

    i just think that this kind of call on the morning after a contentious primary day is classless (they are welcome to capitalize on his "newfound" momentum, but once they know that i am a clinton supporter, then they should lay off)...  am i wrong?  am i being thin-skinned?  shouldn't they wait with these appeals to clinton supporters until (or when) she is out of the race?  

    You must be a preclear... soon you will be an (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:08 AM EST
    Operating Thetan; )

    at my house (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:19:58 AM EST
    do you support Obama?


    hellooooo . . .


    Naw. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:24:19 AM EST
    Sure, I support Obama - when does his Senate race come up again?

    This is funny because I had (none / 0) (#41)
    by andrys on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:45:20 AM EST
    just yesterday written that Obama's "movement" reminds me so much of Scientology.  He still talks about "my movement" rather than the party.

    I heard a pollster talking about NC and IN (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:12 AM EST
    Basically preclears went for Hillary, but Thetans that had been in for several months could not be convinced to vote for Hillary or against Obama for ANY reason, whether it be Wright, Ayers, or that he can't win in November.

    Oh dear... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:58:49 AM EST
    "my movement" has other evocations for me.  Give him an enema and he'd fit in a matchbox.

    is that the three legged (none / 0) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:35 AM EST
    political stool we hear about?

    if we start hearing about E-meters (none / 0) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:47:58 AM EST
    I am definitely going third party

    I avoid such comparisons in public. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:44 AM EST
    Obama, his campaign and his supporters remind me of many, many things but I avoid saying these things in public.  It upsets too many people - and it doesn't win anyone over.  

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Claw on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:34:25 AM EST
    Most likely you were called by a tired, inexperienced person, going down a huge list of potentials.  It's also almost certain that this person was reading from a loose script dictating that they--
    1)Ask for money
    2)Gather info about your political leanings
    3)Ask if they can send you materials

    Mistakes are common.  Long, long ago I called the brother of my candidate's opponent to ask if we could count on his support.  His response was pretty funny.
    The McCain thing is tacky, I agree, but I'm sure that's also in the script.


    The one time I said, I don't like this man anymore (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:35:56 AM EST
    The nice Southern Drawl, you don't? He is the sweetest man in the world. I said, so was my x-husband, in public. Ha. The next time I just answered, NO WAY. End of conversation. So now I know I will be expecting some calls soon. I can be prepared. And nice answers for Hillary. With the DNC, it is, don't bother me until you seat Florida and Michigan.And now I can add and get rid of Donna too.

    actually the secret (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:38:05 AM EST
    is to give all political donations a fake phone number

    You have this all mapped out, don't you? Heh (none / 0) (#53)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:23 AM EST
    I can see you have a lot of experience in this. I do use my google e-mail address. Just cleaned 150 e-mails out of it yesterday. Click, click, click. Delete.

    yeah (none / 0) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:17 AM EST
    done this before
    if you want to be really nice you can give them your work phone number.
    like I did Hillary.
    I dont have a land line and I dont give out my cell.

    The secret to political donations (none / 0) (#64)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:54:13 AM EST
    is to never, ever give them. You will be hounded the rest of your life; )

    No Integrity (none / 0) (#50)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:56 AM EST
    The Dems on the verge of a nominee who's willing to sneak into the convention with just 48 states?  No thank you.

    A candidate with integrity would not accept a nomination with less than the entire country's votes.

    But that's not Obama.  He's counting on all the powerbrokers of the party to wrestle a nomination for him, however they can.  48 states?  An asterisk on the process?  No problem.


    I got a call from (none / 0) (#63)
    by magisterludi on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:54:01 AM EST
    the Obama campaign Tuesday. Caught me totally off guard. I just blurted out "No, No, No!" and hit the end button. I actually regret it, too. There was no reason for me to be rude to the caller. My bad.

    Made me laugh (none / 0) (#143)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:26:56 PM EST
    I had the Amy Winehouse CD on and it was right at the part of No No No.  Maybe I should just keep that part for the phone. Ha. "They tried to make me vote Obama. I said, No No No." I would at least have some fun with it.

    Well, they could wait until the body's (none / 0) (#149)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:36:08 AM EST
    ... cold, but it's not even dead.  

      I go easy on direct-callers that somehow make it through with surveys, while keeping it short.  I know they're probably supplementing income and hoping to get by, so I let them know I don't want to waste their time but I hope they meet a quota with people more into this.  It usually works, as they don't want to waste good time either.

      It reminds me of when Obama didn't want to pose for a picture for a pushy blue-collar worker because, his staff said, the guy was an ebay seller.  WELL, in Ohio, some people have to make-do, and ebay selling is just a way to work and make some money from it.


    Get your talking points in order! (none / 0) (#12)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:18:57 AM EST
    The most fun I have with pollsters and survey takers is when my "no" answers are punctuated with a snort of derision or guffaw of disbelief.  I don't get telemarketers because of the no call list, but since I'm home during the day I often get a poll or phone survey at least once a month.

    Marketing surveys, political polls - I do them all.  I will tell you that the bane of a survey is a high information subject.  We know too danged much to answer "yes" or "no" when we are supposed to.  I've smacked down a few misleading talking points in my time at bat.

    The next time you find yourself on the phone, remember to tell them why you are turning them down.  Politely, of course.


    MI and FL Decision Coming in Next 48 Hours (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:42 AM EST
    Morning Joe and the MSNBC news just following both said the decision for seating the delegations from FL and MI. One number split they showed was 69 for Clinton, 59 Obama - not sure which of the two states that represented or if that is delegates at full capacity or 1/2 capacity.

    The DNC has always said whatever they do it has to feel fair to both sides.

    Timing seems (none / 0) (#20)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:00 AM EST
    like the democrats effort to push Hillary out sooner rather than later. This way they can make the argument that even with FL and MI she really can't get the nomination.

    More Voting (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:38:52 AM EST
    I want Hillary to get her victories in WV, KY and PR.  

    No voter should now be denied the opportunity to cast a vote for the first serious female contender for the White House.  


    I agree completely (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:17 AM EST
    I want Hillary to remain in the race until the convention has a chance to choose the candidate. This campaign season has been so brutal, twisted, and biased. It does feel like Obama is strong-arming his way into the nomination and I want the convention to take 2 votes to get the nominee. Backing down to his tactics goes against me.

    I agree (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:12 AM EST
    everyone should get to vote on this BEFORE its over.

    Yes, the entire country and both parties (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:51 AM EST
    need to revise the process overall. Campaign spending is completely out of control, as well.

    Now all we need (none / 0) (#142)
    by jondee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:11:48 PM EST
    is a human contender.

    I've decided Hillary (none / 0) (#34)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:42:26 AM EST
    gets to decide.  But after seeing her yesterday, I really thought my initial instinct that she should suspend the campaign looked wiser than going on.

    It's too hard to watch for me.  I don't like seeing her this tense or hearing her booed.


    When was she booed? Where? (none / 0) (#49)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:09 AM EST
    In WV (none / 0) (#62)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:31 AM EST
    at her speech.

    Its "interesting" how many times Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:26 AM EST
    has been booed, isn't it? I don't remember any other candidate getting booed as much as she does. It's almost as if its coordinated by an organized campaign... hmmm...

    Are you saying "Community Organizer"? (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:14:06 AM EST
    Yes, a community organizer that inspires... (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:26:50 AM EST
    ...boos; )

    Watch it again (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:58:05 AM EST
    she was booed by Obama supporters who showed up, stood in the back and waved signs. They were rude and should be ashamed of themselves.

    She was not booed by her supporters, of which there were many. She was also thunderingly welcomed at her event in DC last night.


    That is always a given (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:29 AM EST
    A segment of Obama supporters have contributed greatly to his unelectability.

    Deliiberate disrespect (none / 0) (#91)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:09:12 AM EST
    displeases me.  I don't care who by or what for.

    Do it on your own time and your own dime.  


    Same here (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:18:10 AM EST
    The group of Obama supporters were also very concious of where they were standing with their signs held high.

    On live streaming feeds on both Fox News and CNN their signs blocked the video feed for a period of time until someone made them move.

    Stay classy Obama campaign...real nice.


    Good to see you're (none / 0) (#54)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:10 AM EST
    back, Ann :) That fighting spirit looked all but lost yesterday.

    Oh, I'm still of the same mind (none / 0) (#66)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:07 AM EST
    but I do know she's a grown-up.  If she wants to slog through this, her choice.

    I think Obama will be the nominee, however.  blech


    And, I'm staying stubborn (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:43 AM EST
    I won't accept it until the convention is over. I'm not going to be able to stomach more than 2 months of that idea.

    No (none / 0) (#31)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:22 AM EST
    Hillary would not get all her pledged delegates. If there were no penalty, she would get 73 and he would get 55, but you are correct in that this is the compromise proposal put out by Levin et al.

    No biggie (none / 0) (#57)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:16 AM EST
    It's more fun than sitting here working! :)

    10 delegate difference (none / 0) (#65)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:03 AM EST
    that's a pretty nice compromise for the man who underscored MI's punishment by removing his name from their ballot and denying them the opportunity for a meaningful vote.

    Not to mention why he removed his name (none / 0) (#152)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:21:06 AM EST
    I mentioned it earlier but most will have missed it.

    Here's the Iowa Independent's article about Obama's "leadership" in the removal of names thing, in Michigan.

      Bear in mind, no rules asked them to take their names off.  Obama and Edwards, both behind Clinton by 20 or more, did, and Obama then told Michigan voters they should vote for "Uncommitted" (rather than for Clinton, Kucinich, Dodd, or Gravel), which was of course a way of 'campaigning' for a vote!  Which he now gets!

      "Participation" in this did not involve the name remaining on the ballot.


    It will not (none / 0) (#82)
    by americanincanada on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:03:23 AM EST
    put him over the magic number. The magic number would have to be revised to include Michigan and Florida. It would become 2209.

    My understanding was that their votes (none / 0) (#153)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:22:05 AM EST
    (Mich/Flordia) would not count until the nominee was selected.

      Anyone hear differently?


    Feel fair to both sides (none / 0) (#128)
    by Nadai on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:33:37 AM EST
    If they can pull that off, we need to send them to the Middle East to settle the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

    USA Today... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by white n az on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:32 AM EST
    USA Today hatchet job - Wright Story, What Took So Long nasty tone - media darling no longer.

    been sayin (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:17 AM EST
    as soon as the nominating process is over and he is running against McCain and not Clinton the honeymoon is over.

    and this USAToday article (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by ding7777 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:23:45 AM EST
    Clinton makes case for wide appeal quotes Hillary as saying:
    an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me

    The high information/creative class readers at the BigOrange have at least 2 diaries (1 recommended) who turned this quote into another
    "Hillary is a racist" rant, even though it is nothing more than a

    variation on the way analysts have been "slicing and dicing the vote in racial terms

    yeah (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:26:39 AM EST
    I posted a thing from Ablog like this yesterday.
    about how Hillary had "dissed" AAs repeatedly.
    how did she diss them?
    by pointing out that Obama is not winning white voters.
    these people are sick and shameless and make me wonder if we deserve to win.

    The timing of the the initial Wright (none / 0) (#134)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:20:45 AM EST
    controversy was extremely favorable to Obama. Suspiciously favorable.  It was two days after winning the MS primary and six weeks from the PA primary.  Plenty of time to recover and as far away from November as possible. I'm not normally conspiracy minded, but the timing was too perfect.

    Maybe Ralph Nader (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by zfran on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:20:35 AM EST
    actually has a chance this year!! lol!!

    dont laugh (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:41 AM EST
    All I know is.... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:44:53 AM EST
    Ralph Nader or another 3rd party "wrench in the works" canidate is OUR only chance at peace, prosperity, and liberty.

    The 3 stooges only guarantee war, hardship, and tyranny.


    Rising cost of living: Energy, food, necessities (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:13 AM EST
    I was wondering this morning what will be done to help transition the poor and lower earners in our country to the world of "new" energy pricing and alternative sources.

    Right now, it's a rich man's game.  Bush has many alternative energy sources built into his "ranch" house, which most Americans can in no way afford.

    What will be done to ensure people can get to work, afford to light and heat their homes, and feed their families?

    Obama speaks in generalities and long term plans.  He's also in favor or "clean coal" and nuke energy.  All of which will take a long time to get on line.

    Has he ever addressed what Hillary brought up, which to help people make the transition?

    No no no! (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:56 AM EST
    Please no "dream ticket"!  I don't want to see HRC waste a minute propping up Obama's doomed campaign!  I don't want her to have to explain BHO's friends and cousins and other skeletons!  Let him fall on his own fanny!

    No from me too (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:35:16 AM EST
    If he then loses it will all be her fault.

    And for some of us old feminazis the thought of a better qualified, older woman, taking a back seat to a man we consider unqualified is infuriating. I would not vote for that ticket. Ever. Dream ticket my buttocks!  


    Gary Indiana - the deal breaker (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by gandy007 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:12:39 AM EST
    Let me preface by saying that this despicable act in Indiana finally sent me over the edge. That from your prototype Yellow Dog Democrat of some 44 years who has voted Democrat in every election for
    candidates of every color and stripe and some who were not so hot.

    The only possible way I could vote for Obama, if he wins, is if it becomes crystal clear that McCain would wage preemptive war on another nation.

    The predictions of the mayor intimating that there was a vast reservoir of votes in Gary that would, if his percentages were correct, turn the tide and secure an Obama victory were unethical and calculated.   It was untrue. Late, Fox showed Hillary leading by 21,000 with 90% counted. Then there was a dip at 95% to 17,00 which seemed to give credibility to the mayor's assertions.  But by the time 100% were counted the margin had in fact increased to about 23,000.

    He took advantage of the late reporting to, in effect, freeze  the media from calling the race for Clinton, as had CBS.  The fear of being wrong was to some degree understandable.  It is hard to believe that these were the actions of an independent rogue politician.  It is more plausible that he did it with the full agreement, indeed the blessing of the Obama campaign.

    This has been a chronic problem in Gary and was even predictable.

    Had the votes been assessed earlier, as the several mayor in Clinton towns surrounding Gary
    stated they could and should have been, the race would have been called much earlier.  As the Hammond mayor stated, they submitted their vote I believe around 7 PM.  She had to carry virtually every other town in the county, heavily, to offset the admittedly large margin in Gary. The final county number was about 55-45, I believe.

    The race would have been called when Clinton still had over a 4 point lead and probably more. The storyline and punditry would have had to be quite different, i.e. "Clinton still alive, splits with Obama."   The fact that Obama later narrowed the gap so much would have been more of  a footnote.  On many other levels, it was insidious.  Once the talking heads had established a position, it was difficult, nay impossible, to take a different tack.  In effect, once the consensus was that Clinton was on the verge of defeat, ego and other considerations sealed her fate.

    The final crusher was the demoralizing of the Clinton faithful and the huge collateral impact on her immediate fund raising ability.  An early Clinton victory likely would have energized supporters and led to an impulsive infusion of funds, as happened in Pa.  As it was, by the time the squeeker was called, there was some uncertainty as to whether she would continue.  On numerous blogs, Obama agents came in saying that she had canceled all appearances the next morning.  True or not, it abetted the idea that she might quit.  There are few people that will give, certainly not as generously, to retire a campaign debt as they will to an ongoing energetic campaign.

    I posted this on Fox on a related article.   Good reading on the comments, many from people familiar with politics there.
    The Lake County Hold Up

    Since this is an open thread... (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:29 AM EST
    Here's my letter I am sending to the DNC today:

    May 8, 2008

    Democratic National Committee

    Attention:  Howard Dean

    Mr. Dean,

    My name is Angelo Peña.  I was a lifelong Democrat that was actually a part of your campaign team back in 2003 and until you ended your run in 2004.  I worked with Jerome Wiley-Segovia in coordinating eleven states here in the south with respect to Latino outreach.

    As we near the end of another primary season, I wanted to share with you my deepest regrets over the many failed actions that you have led the party to.  First, the punitive actions towards Florida, when, in fact, it was a Republican legislature that moved up the state's primary date, not the Democrats.   Then, the stunt in Michigan where the candidates removed their names from the ballots just to appease someone's ego (members' of the rules committee that Jerome sits on I guess) so they too be punished for moving up their primary.

    Now here we are, with one Barack Obama, who has little if ANY experience to take on the White House when the country is in such horrendous shape, to lead the party and the country off a cliff...all thanks to you, Pelosi, the rules committee and the biggest excluder of all, Donna Brazille.

    I am beyond disappointed in you Mr. Dean.  I cannot even bring myself to call you governor anymore, because you don't even act like it.  

    If you think that Barack is going to win with just blacks and far liberal voters, guess again.  Moderate and TRULY progressive voters like myself do not take kindly the disenfranchisement of MI and FL to further the illegitimate nomination process that benefits Obama.

    You and yours just completely pissed off the woman vote, the Latino vote and working class/white, blue collar vote.

    Good luck in your failed task of hoisting Barack into the White House.  I have disavowed the Democratic party and will never look back.  I am now an independent who will not vote straight Democratic ticket ever again.  I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and retained a large circle of contacts after your campaign.  I am going to make it my greatest work in my political life to derail Barack of ANY votes here in Texas and anywhere else my Latinos For Dean campaign had taken me.

    And as far as Donna Brazille is concerned, let her know that my parents, my ten aunts and uncles, their spouses, their children, my seven brothers and sisters and their spouses and their children, will NOT be casting their votes for Barack Obama when I am through with them, since she practically admitted the Democrats don't need our vote.

    GuaranF***gtee it!


    Angelo Peña
    Fort Worth, Texas

    Call the DNC too (none / 0) (#155)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:46:59 AM EST
    They have humans answering the phone at most hours, people have posted.  And they listen.

      Call and try to make sure this letter actually gets to Dean...

      Toll-free number for the DNC  


    Great letter.


    I am so sick of this (4.50 / 2) (#110)
    by g8grl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:20:33 AM EST
    If we had the same winner take all process as the other side, Hillary would have been our nominee by now.  Instead, we've got some wishy washy system where caucuses can be gamed and we apportion delegates as though they were jelly beans and everyone gets their share.  It's really galling.  I'm not sure I can pull the lever for Obama in November.  As a woman who has been passed over for less qualified men, I am really angry that this can happen on a national level.  It's simply unacceptable.

    I've learned a lot more than I ever (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    wanted to know about the Dem party system. It really is hogwash, and not at all designed to get the best nominee. No wonder we have been losing most presidential elections in the last 40 years.

    McGovern Last Dem Nominee Not to win Popular (none / 0) (#3)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:36:02 AM EST
    vote and still get the nomination -- fitting that he would be calling for Hillary to drop out.

    McGovern was on Dem Now this morning, said (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:40 AM EST
    he saw Obama's campaign like his in '72.

    I cringed.

    He also said he only lost bcz his opponents took their campaigns to the end of the primary process and the convention.

    Oh my.

    Transcript not up yet, but should be soon.


    Yep, that's why you lost George (none / 0) (#78)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:00:00 AM EST
    Piffle. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:04:02 AM EST
    Somebody was yammering on about that on NPR yesterday morning.

    The trick is to win the nomination without alienating the people you need in the GE.  If you can't do that, then yes, you will be in trouble in the GE.  But that won't be anyone's fault but your own.


    Dukakis said the most important person in bringing (none / 0) (#99)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:14:02 AM EST
    party together again in a contested primary is the losing candidate.

    That it was important that that person work hard for the winner, to lead his supporters to the winner.

    He mentioned, iirc, that Bradley did not work much for Gore. Is that correct? Had other examples as well, and I can't recall where I heard this.


    Well, yes. (none / 0) (#108)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:42 AM EST
    But it really depends WHY people voted for the losing candidate.  If you can make it about Issues, then Issues can be transferred to another candidate.

    But if you run a Personality driven campaign and the Issues are left behind, it will be harder to get Issues oriented people on board.

    It is ALWAYS easier to unify people around the Issues.  The Right has been doing it forever with the God/Guns/Gays/Taxes shtick.  How else could they hold that fractious coalition together?


    Very perceptive. Of course, issues easier. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:06:06 AM EST
    Which is why it's too bad Obama went after personality and, the very worse, accused the Clintons of being racist or racially insensitive.

    Aaarrrggghhh. But, listening to Axelrod, he is a take no prisoners pol. Goes for the jugular, in hopes there is simply no competition for his guy.

    Then paints his candidate as hope and unity.

    Harder to do when there's a real candidate with real ideas opposite his person.


    Re Axelrod, an interesting story (none / 0) (#146)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:17:41 AM EST
    Very interesting and very long NY Times article by Ben Wallace-Wells quoting Axelrod last year.  It's called "Obama's Narrator."

    Intriguing paragraphs near the end:

       It was January 1999, President Clinton's impeachment trial was just beginning in the Senate and Hillary Clinton was scheduled to speak at the foundation's fund-raiser in Chicago. Despite all the fuss back in Washington, Clinton kept the appointment. She spent hours that day in the epilepsy ward at Rush Presbyterian hospital, visiting children hooked up to machines by electrodes so that doctors might diagram their seizure activity and decide which portion of the brain to remove. At the hospital, a local reporter pressed her about the trial in Washington, asked her about that woman.

       At the organization's reception at the Drake Hotel that evening, Clinton stood backstage looking over her remarks, figuring out where to insert anecdotes about the kids. "She couldn't stop talking about what she had seen," Susan Axelrod recalled.  Later, at Hillary Clinton's behest, the National Institutes of Health convened a conference on finding a cure for epilepsy. Susan Axelrod told me it was "one of the most important things anyone has done for epilepsy." And this is how politics works: David Axelrod is now dedicated to derailing this woman's career.

    "Life can be tragic," Axelrod told me by phone from Chicago the day before Obama officially announced his candidacy, "but it is important to focus on the moments when it is rapturous." Political consultancy is often understood, from a distance, as a science of cynicism, but from up close it can look instead like a ruthless form of love.

    "take no prisoners" pol (none / 0) (#148)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:29:55 AM EST
    jawbone, the NY Times article  that I mentioned refers to the campaign incidents of the two U.S. Senate opponents' marital problems (sealed court issues in one case) being revealed by the candidates after Axelrod's campaign pressed the Chicago Tribune to print them.  It's been said by a few that Axelrod was behind the first discovery besides encouraging the printing of the stories but he's denied the discovery part.  

    This is all in addition to Obama having his 'people' explore the current state senator opponents' ballot eligibility with newer voter lists they had and was able to get Palmer and 4 other opponents off the ballot so he could run alone.

     Ah, Chicago politics.  They're back in vogue and 'new'  :-)

     No politics of division when the opponent can just nicely disappear from political view.


    McGovern rationalized his swtiching now as OK (none / 0) (#103)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:28 AM EST
    bcz it was close to the end of the primaries and there were only a few contests left. He did not mention FL or MI.

    He emphasized that she has a right to finish out the contest.

    Then gushed about how Obama is inspiring the younger voters.  Ah, sweet memories....


    Ah, thanks jawbone (none / 0) (#147)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:19:48 AM EST
    I missed that he said she had a right to finish out the contest.

    Deliberate (none / 0) (#8)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:13:24 AM EST
    He wants Obama to take over his dubious title.  His last chance to rewrite history.

    do you think (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:16:07 AM EST
    anyone besides us saw the irony in that?

    McGovern (none / 0) (#26)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:40 AM EST
    is really quite frail.  As I watched him, I didn't sense any ill-will motive at all.

    He just was asked and gave his opinion.


    While I voted for McGovern (none / 0) (#37)
    by andrys on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:09 AM EST
    I find it a sad way to re-appear, telling another candidate who is still polling better than Obama in electoral state matches against McCain, and before the Florida/Michigan situation is resolved, that she should leave the race now.

      He has always been a nice guy and may mean well, but his effort to suggest unity is just too ironic.  The man won the primary delegates in his time and then lost 49 states, and
    the superdelegate rules were created to prevent another such horrific disaster.

      Maybe someone upstairs is trying to remind us.


    as much as him name has come up lately (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:45:16 AM EST
    he should have stayed out of sight and kept his mouth shut.

    I didn't react that way (none / 0) (#117)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:27:52 AM EST
    It was a gentle interview, and all he said was that probably it was time to bring the party together.

    I'm not going to become like the Obama supporters who bash everyone who doesn't agree with Hillary about staying in.

    That characteristic is one reason I'm very opposed to his candidacy, so I definitely don't want to do the same.


    As mentioned, I voted for him (none / 0) (#145)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:03:29 AM EST
    but when any adult publicly (unlike Pelosi, Dean) tells a candidate who has worked hard, it's time to get out, when the totals are still not finalized because of Fla/Mich and when 6 million votes have still not been counted AND Rasmussen has Clinton at 40 points above Obama today in WVa and SUSA has her at 34 points above as of yesterday, I will object to that.  (But it also makes good sense that you'll say, hey, go easy... ;-) due to his age and something that may look like good intentions).

      One superdelegate story mentions names of superdelegates on May 6, evening time, who don't want to decide until the primaries are over.  That would seem fair.  On Abrams' show (or Matthews') last night, a counter said there is still an actual possibility for her (at least in superdelegate arguments) if  she wins WVa by 20+ and Kentucky by 20+ and if she loses Oregon, Montana and SDakota by less than 10 each and she is allowed to count the actual number of votes received in Fla/Mich in her arguments, to lead in popular votes method.   My sense is that Obama should have the Uncommitted votes counted for him since he requested that Michigan voters vote for Uncommitted.

      Even as a youngster I did not like it when someone took it upon themselves to tell one kid in front of the group (this is considered humiliating and the other Dem leaders have decided not to push her) it was time for the perceived loser to leave the game, before it was actually over even if it looked as if the kid were losing.  I'm treating McGovern as an adult human and not as just an aged person who gets a pass on that from another aged person (me).


    I like McGovern -- But he made (none / 0) (#86)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:06:13 AM EST
    a big point on the Jon Stewart show of saying how much he liked Obama and how he had endorsed Hillary a year ago, BEFORE, he knew anything about Obama. It's fine if he wants to switch his support, but to do so in this manner is wrong.

    The Wake (none / 0) (#6)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:28 AM EST
    "Get A Fork for Hil; She's Done."  Headline on page 4 of NY Daily News.  I don't like any headline with a subext of violence.

    its interesting to think about (none / 0) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:18:22 AM EST
    how different the headlines would be if the outcome had been different tuesday.
    somehow I suspect we would have seen more mourning and whining making of excuses for Obama.

    Double Standard (none / 0) (#32)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:37 AM EST
    But there is more sensitivity to avoiding any gleeful celebration of an Obama demise, particularly with any violent subtext in it.

    With Hillary, the media just sees a punching bag to be hit over and over.


    Whacking the Hillary pinata. (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:15 AM EST
    That's my term for it.  

    Yes, it's pretty vicious (none / 0) (#150)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 12:47:54 AM EST
    Seems like a residue of hatred against a woman who could dare think she would go "ruin" the campaign of a guy favored by the old boys (as I saw said today on HuffPost).

      No, it isn't just 'The Clintons' thing because they tend to speak in terms of her weight, her looks, her being so aggressive etc etc

      Remembering 'entitlement' complaints of his against Clinton, I have to chuckle re his own sense of it because of what he said about such a run 3~ years ago:

    MR. RUSSERT:  Before you go, you know there's been enormous speculation about your political future.  Will you serve your full six-year term as U.S. senator from Illinois?

    SEN.-ELECT OBAMA:  Absolutely.  You know, a little--some of this hype's been a little overblown.  It's flattering, but I have to remind people that I haven't been sworn in yet.  I don't know where the rest rooms are in the Senate.  I'm going to have to figure out how to work the phones, answer constituent mail.  I expect to be in the Senate for quite some time, and hopefully I'll build up my seniority from my current position, which I believe is 99th out of 100.

       One should strike when the iron's hot, though, or whatever they say, but then one should be a mite more cautious about accusing longer-timers of having entitlement issues.


    They are STILL beating the (none / 0) (#14)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:12 AM EST
    OMG!  Hillary will cost Obama the GE!  meme over at the Big O!

    Do they have any idea how weak that makes Obama look?  Especially when they can't frame in a sincere attempt at party unity, instead opting for the Hillary is Teh Evil! frame.

    I wish Obama would get a better breed of online supporters.  I'm open to being wooed and won over, but neither Obama nor his HH'ing supporters are up to the task.


    honestly (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:26:10 AM EST
    if I hear one more time that Hillary is exposing Obamas weaknesses to John McCain [as if republicans ever needed a guide to democratic weaknesses] I swear to god my teevee is in danger.

    My TV is safe. (none / 0) (#25)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:24 AM EST
    All though, I refer any interested to a Maya and Miguel episode where someone runs for class president for selfish reasons, under the banner of "Vote for me, because I'm GREAT!" only to concede the election to the quiet kid who actually talked to the students to find out what they actually wanted.

    For the less pure of heart, I recommend Transmetropolitan.


    about as likely to happen in High School (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:14 AM EST
    as in real life Im afraid

    Then you (none / 0) (#43)
    by Claw on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:45:52 AM EST
    Should probably stop watching TV.  It's an easy, stupid thing to bloviate about.  
    I actually think Clinton has done Obama a favor.  We've heard and seen the rev. Wright stuff so much that the shock value has worn off.  And it looks like he's beaten the best political team in America (Hillary and Bill).  McCain is nothing compared to them in terms of political know-how.  

    its not rocket science (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:59 AM EST
    that this stuff is better out now than in August.

    It's not McCain you need to worry about (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:07:15 AM EST
    There's a little thing called 527's and it doesn't matter if they run ads that tell the truth or not (see: Swiftboating). Wright, Rezko, Ayers, Obama's broad interpretation of the truth (see: Selma, AL, Kennedy bringing his father here, poor street urchin in Indonesia, etc.), it's they'll run stuff that isn't true either, (see: Larry Sinclair, Muslim, etc.) Obama will have to spend time and money to defend against this, and you know what?  To people who aren't tuned into blogs or the primaries right now - this is all going to be fresh meat.

    Well (none / 0) (#101)
    by Claw on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:14:20 AM EST
    Obama's got money to spend and I think most of the things you've mentioned are (thanks to a long primary), pretty common knowledge.  527's are always a problem, but the fact that "swiftboating" has become synonymous with "telling outrageous lies that are then refuted utterly."  Well, it givs me quite a bit of hope

    Again (none / 0) (#120)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:32 AM EST
    Most of this stuff is not "common knowledge" - many people outside the blogoshpere world have been paying little or no attention and won't until after Labor Day.  Plus, Obama won't be getting all the positive press he's enjoyed this primary season - he's actually going to be held accountable for a few things, because McCain is the true media darling.

    Hillary has more GE money right now than Obama, and he's going to have to spend it defending once-safe blue states, plus against the 527's.

    Not going to be pretty.


    Don't worry (none / 0) (#144)
    by Claw on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:06:40 PM EST
    I'm under no illusion that everyone has as much info or understanding as the leftblogs--which actually makes me more hopeful.  The really salacious stuff has been shown over, and over, and over.  How many times (on MSM) have we seen Rev. Wright screaming God d**n American, or just generally acting crazy?  
    Most non-leftblog addicted people feel more hopeful about this campaign and our chances.

    There's so much more than Wright (none / 0) (#151)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:10:31 AM EST
    Not worth Dems talking about, but the 527's are into illustrating the problems in easy to understand visual terms, and there is really a lot.  Dems would not do this to one another and Hillary didn't touch any of it, really.

      His problem is the pretense of being "new politics" and it will be vividly shown that's not him, at least not how his career evolved.  There are already videos of some unseemly  associates, letters he wrote for them as a state senator, also more questionable associates because of some understandable intellectual curiosity and being drawn to leftists as he has written in the first book and they'll likely just be illustrated in 1-2-3 terms on primetime TV where most Americans hang out (not on our addictive cable-news or Internet places).

      The Rezko properties (with tenants living in severely bad conditions) while Obama and Rezko's wife both buy a home and adjoining lot on the same day (Obama saying buying the home was a "stretch" and he needed the help as both needed to be sold at the same time) and the various omissions of fact or lies he told DURING the times and corrected this year -- that will make very unpleasant 527 video.  They've been working on these for months with plans to release them after the convention, per readings on conservative forums.  There is so much online already but most would never see them, because Dems don't draw other Dems to them.

      They can show more innocent things like his telling a church that they can't tell him Selma means nothing to him because it was because of what happened with Selma that his parents met and conceived him.  But Selma happened years after he was born.  So that won't look good either.  And there is video of that and transcript, though his people now say he meant the civil rights movement in general.  He has a pattern of doing this, including the NY Times telling of how he told an Iowa audience about a nuclear safety bill he passed and only in the past year at that, he added, but the bill never passed and he knew that.

      Even with the older story of Wright, he also has problems with his recent successful Wright defense because he said he didn't ever hear those things about white-America using its power badly but he writes at length about this very thing in his first book (which has much about searching for his black identity and his discomfort with his mother's people), and one sermon that transfixed him and led to the title for his 2nd book is described in that first book, with passages quoting Wright describing a world "where white folks' greed
    runs a world in need, apartheid in one hemisphere, apathy in another hemisphere. ... That's the world! On which hope sits."

    Obama continued there:
    "Reverend Wright spoke of Sharpsville and Hiroshima, the callousness of policymakers in the White House and in the State House. As the sermon unfolded, though, the stories of strife became more prosaic, the pain
    more immediate."

    WE won't care about that, but middle-America will.  And it makes his last defense seem not exactly honest.


    That's Really Sad, in a Way (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by The Maven on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:16 AM EST
    For a while now, I've viewed that kind of behavior to be emblematic of a fundamental insecurity among Obama's most over-the-top promoters -- that the senator from Illinois and his candidacy all rest on such a fragile premise that even there merest hint of competition or constructive criticism is the equivalent of giving aid and comfort to the enemy.  Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. played that card repeatedly from 9/11 through to the early stages of Iraq, and it was equally offensive and insulting then.

    If Obama's people are this fraught with anxiety over what's come from within the Democratic camp so far *, what does this say about their ability to deal with attacks from Republicans and their shadowy 527s, which will certainly be many multiples more vicious?

    And wouldn't all this also be an argument in favor of never offering a primary challenge to any Democratic officeholder in all but the safest of districts?  After all, the primary fight might serve to divide the party and damage the candidate for the general.  How does that square with the concept of more and better Democrats?

    * Of course, one of their defense mechanisms has been to paint Clinton and her associates as being "not really Democrats, anyway".


    Don't see it (none / 0) (#15)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:34 AM EST
    Your link leads to the Drudge Report and nothing on the page repeats your headline that I can find.

    from ABC news (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:50 AM EST
    GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: There are various exit strategies right now. Number one would be, go out on a win. So, stay in until West Virginia, where Sen. Clinton is likely the winner, and Kentucky on May 20, and after that, bow out. Two, negotiate for the imposition of Michigan and Florida, to get those delegations seated, declare victory on that, and get out. But the big one, Charlie -- and this is what some people close to the Clintons are talking about: Is there a way to negotiate a settlement with Barack Obama to have Sen. Clinton on the ticket?

    Democratic Process (none / 0) (#30)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:13 AM EST
    I sincerely hope the democrats are seriously looking at the process they have in place. Even if the way it stands is fair and balanced, what the MSM does to it is impossible to want to experience again.

    Does Hillary have a chance as Majority Leader? (none / 0) (#77)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:56 AM EST
    And wouldn't that have more power than VP?

    Replace Harry Reid? (none / 0) (#84)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:04:48 AM EST
    She's a junior Senator.

    I keep hearing this junion senator stuff (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:07:37 AM EST
    and yet it was reported long ago that Harry said he would back her if she dropped out of the presidential race.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#90)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:08:38 AM EST
    And I don't think Harry Reid has plans to go anywhere (and rumor has it, he is a supporter of hers)

    Her best chance is with voters (none / 0) (#95)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:11:07 AM EST
    as VP.  Other senators vote on Majority Leader.  If she had their support as SDs, she might be the presidential nominee. I used to think Majority Leader was feasible, but I don't any longer.

    I wish somebody would research (none / 0) (#94)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:10:18 AM EST
    how many people stopped supporting Hillary b/c they thought she had already lost and was being a sore loser or impeding the Dems chances in November.  Considering this "no chance" MSM media meme has been going on since FEBRUARY, it must have cost her millions of dollars and votes.

    In the courtroom (none / 0) (#21)
    by AdrianLesher on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:31:49 AM EST
    That's where the artists sit.

    Here's a vital link for reading and action (none / 0) (#29)
    by andrys on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:52 AM EST
    Tom in Maine wrote a TERRIFIC blog entry today about

      It's one of the best pieces I've read on this situation.  Please click on the link and also add your views and let's also see if we can do what he suggests about getting this view  to the media and to the superdelegates.

    Carter (none / 0) (#35)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:15 AM EST
    Why didn't Jimmy Carter go to bat for these states - I think that's a sad reflection on him and his views on electoral integrity.  Or does he not care about shenanigans in the U.S. when they favor Obama?

    His Granddaughter is for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:17 AM EST
    It is not like the Middle East conflict. Her Granddaughter has decided for him.

    And (none / 0) (#113)
    by Claw on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:23:19 AM EST
    GA went overwhelmingly for Obama.

    Fabulous article (none / 0) (#61)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:46 AM EST
    although I'm not sure how he's coming up with all of his math, but nonetheless, a great read.



    No kidding (none / 0) (#36)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:52 AM EST
    That's one of the more ridiculous ways to waste taxpayer money I've seen in years.

    Is Zogby New World's Greatest Pollster? (none / 0) (#39)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:47 AM EST
    Nah, he's been off too much this year, but he did really well on the last three.  But then, so did this guy.

    That guy pretending to be Josh Marsall (none / 0) (#42)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:45:38 AM EST
    is at it again.

    But creeping in the shadows of these conversations about how Democrats can no longer manage to win the white vote and are only saved from political oblivion by running up big margins among African-Americans is a little disguised assumption that African-American votes are somehow second-rate.  I don't think there's any getting around that.

    Huh?  Since when is anyone assuming that the votes of any of the minority groups underneath the Democratic Big Tent are second rate? Did I miss a memo?  That must be a very well disguised assumption to have gotten by me all these years.

    Maybe the real Josh will come back after the weekend.

    Numbers, Just Numbers (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:20 AM EST
    Now demography becomes bias.  Great.

    Should we redact the census?  It might offend someone.


    I wonder if George is right (none / 0) (#73)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:58:29 AM EST
    and Hillary will take VP?
    BTD is right it makes all kinds of sense and yet I still have trouble imagining it.
    it seems like such a step down.  

    I think she would take it (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:07:39 AM EST
    and I hope she does. I don't think being the first woman VP would be a step down at all.  She could do a lot of good in that position - she could make it a real job (ironically, Cheney has paved the way for this), like she did the job of First Lady.

    In fact the reason Obama may not give it to her is that she would be too powerful, with her own constituency.


    Too powerful - mebbe so! (none / 0) (#96)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:11:32 AM EST
    After all, if she wanted to go against him, she could and he'd probably be the last one to find out.  She knows the secret handshakes and code words and he doesn't.

    but CHeney only wields such power (none / 0) (#109)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:20:05 AM EST
    because W let him.

    No no no! (none / 0) (#126)
    by Upstart Crow on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:30 AM EST
    [comment below]  This ticket is doomed!  I don't want her tainted with it!  Hold out for majority leader!  That way when this buggy comes apart, she'll still have something.

    I think she should run for (none / 0) (#102)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:15:02 AM EST
    Governor of New York.

    wow (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:25 AM EST
    very interesting.

    Great idea (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:11 AM EST
    I never thought of that - I'm still not used to Spitzer being out of that job.

    Please no.... (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:47:29 AM EST
    it's bad enough having her use her NY Senate seat as a springboard to something bigger...we don't need her in the governors mansion with her eyes on the White House...we need someone serious about NY's needs.

    George is using the 48 state stategy (none / 0) (#119)
    by ding7777 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:21 AM EST
    to save Howard Dean by throwing Hillary under the bus

    STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes. Toast. Hil needs a miracle. That's exactly right. Even though this race is going to go on. Hillary Clinton will keep on campaigning. She's going to campaign in West Virginia today. But this nomination fight is over. Barack Obama has a lead that can't be overcome in pledged delegates. He's brought back his popular vote lead by another 200,000 votes last night. The only way for Senator Clinton to catch him would be to get Florida and Michigan included. That's not going to happen. And what you're going to start to see in the coming days, as early as today, more super delegates will come out for Barack Obama. They will come in three, four, five at a time, and this nomination will be wrapped up.

    George is a craven teevee zombie (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:30:53 AM EST
    but he is probably right.

    On the stalker story above (none / 0) (#85)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:06:01 AM EST
    So into politics I did not realize Uma had a problem. There was a stalker story on Criminal Minds last night. Interesting timing.

    I remember when I had this strange guy sending me note and letters and leaving me presents at my house. He really was a love sick guy and once we had a talk, he called me, he backed off and found someone else. But this guy stalking Uma sounds over the top. With the stuff he left her, I would have been very afraid.

    Yes (none / 0) (#93)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:10:17 AM EST
    I had a stalker in high school - another girl, actually.  I wasn't really afraid of her until after the fact, when I had time to really think about it.



    stalking is not only a hetero thing (none / 0) (#97)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:13:36 AM EST
    oddly I seem to have a stalker.  at 56. how cool is that?
    two days ago I got a call at work from a guy who had hit on me over and over and over many years ago when I lived in another midwestern city.
    when I say years ago I am talking about 25 years ago at least.  he apparently used the google and found my name on the website of where I work now.  I got an email from the receptionist saying "call XXXX XXXXX"
    I sent back an email saying who the hell is XXXX XXXXX?  (I had completely forgotten about the guy) I have no idea she said.  he just said to call.
    anyway, I was sort of impressed with his stamina and I returned his call.  at 56 even a stalker can be a good thing.

    Then it was not really stalking (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:07 AM EST
    and stalking is NEVER a good thing.

    you are right of course (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:34:44 AM EST
    and I was a bit creeped out.
    but at my age we take compliments where we find them.

    Dem Now segment on torture, Bush's probable guilt (none / 0) (#92)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:10:04 AM EST
    along with many others in the Maladministration.

    "Torture Team": British Attorney Philippe Sands on the White House Role in Sanctioning Torture

    The House Judiciary Committee is preparing to hold a series of hearings examining the Bush administration's role in authorizing the illegal torture of prisoners in US custody at Guantanamo and elsewhere. British attorney and author Philippe Sands, author of the new book "Torture Team: Rumsfeld's Memo and the Betrayal of American Values," on Tuesday, testified before the House Judiciary Sub-Committee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.

    He said that Bush's admission of knowing about the Principals meetings on torture was an admission of guilt.  He talked about a legal opinion that lawyers who authorize torture are just as culpable as the torturers. And, he said Scalia's reply about torture, that it wasn't "punishment" and therefore was not precluded by the Consitution, was patently false as Scalia knows very well that the Constitution makes signed treaties the law of the land.  

    He thinks Yoo should not be teaching is sure charges are being drawn up even now to apply to members of BushCo, and many will find foreign travel difficult to impossible.

    Transcript not up yet, but here is link.

    David Broder had a (none / 0) (#98)
    by zfran on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:13:43 AM EST
    column today for Sen. Clinton to call it a day. Wrote him an e-mail (which he'll never read) saying that since he's older now, newspaper readership is down, etc. and people are not reading his column like they used to, he should stop writing it and let the columnists who's columns are read more than his stay in. The Clinton's are seasoned Dems and they have given everything to the party..what has Sen. Obama brought to this party..they treat this as a coronation (similar to G.W.)instead of a potential
    nomination. I'm done with the Dems...I wonder what Independents feel like..I think I'll give it a try!!

    I'm an Independent. (none / 0) (#106)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:18:29 AM EST
    But I've never voted Republican...

    Good NPR report on our bombing Sadr City -- (none / 0) (#112)
    by jawbone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:23:04 AM EST
    and killing civilians. 10's of 1000's fleeing their homes. Talked with man whose parents refused to leave their home; still alive as far as he knows.

    We're dropping 100 pound missiles from Predator drones into an incredibly dense urban area.

    But it's all good because we're protecting the Green Zone. And we're not taking sides in a civil war....

    Let's hear... (none / 0) (#138)
    by kdog on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:49:13 AM EST
    the 3 stooges explain how this senseless death and destruction is a good thing.

    Five mistakes that Clinton made (none / 0) (#131)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:35:39 AM EST
    The story from #2 in this article floored me.  How much money did they give this guy?

    Millions (literally) (none / 0) (#154)
    by andrys on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:38:21 AM EST
    Stamp Your Feet Hillary (none / 0) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    Donna has some good advise for Hillary:


    sic (none / 0) (#140)
    by gandy007 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:16:35 AM EST

    Comments are closed here (none / 0) (#156)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 09, 2008 at 01:59:40 AM EST
    try a new thread.