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How To Solve The Problem

Ok, I know I have not convinced many Obama supporters that there is a problem, but I am going to spitball some ideas on this.

I think Obama needs to latch onto some populist issues that appeal to that group. The best one I can think of is one I completely disagree with - the anti-trade movement. The whole anti trade schtick is wrong on policy. But it makes for great populist appeal and contrast with Republicans and with John McCain. I know Obama trotted it out in Ohio but he has not stuck to it and he never was very convincing arguing it.

More . . .

I also think he needs to address the "toughness" issue. Obama ridiculed some of Hillary Clinton's language on foreign policy while basically echoing her policy views. I think he needs to talk tougher too. It's stupid I know,but politics is stupid.

Finally, one very good aspect of Obama's speech in North Carolina Tuesday was the patriotic, American Exceptionalism talk. More of that please.

A few quick ideas for your consideration.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

Comments now closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    Unsolvable problem? (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:33:27 PM EST
    When Obama spoke at the SF meeting, and was trying to justify his lack of appeal to working class folk, I had the impression he was looking at those folk through a high-powered microscope.
    This is his biggest problem.

    Bill Clinton has always been the best at making voters feel that he understood them and their problems.

    Hillary, not so much, but she has learned how through disciplined effort.
    Obama can wow a crowd, but he can't touch their hearts.
    McCain has that war hero, "I'll keep you safe" thing going for him.

    I'm sorry to say I think Obama will lose the GE because many voters believe he doesn't care about them.

    You Are Correct. I Have Never Seen One (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:56:14 PM EST
    ounce of compassion ooze from obama.  And for those who think he should pick some issues and spout them, forget it.  He is not about working hard and really doesn't care about the issues, as far as I can see.  He has one goal...to sit his arrogant a$$ in the WH and pander to those special interest friends of his and DNC lackeys who helped get him there.  Hopefully, it will not happen.

    Parent
    That's not true... (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:21 PM EST
    Who hasn't bemoaned the price of argula?

    Parent
    The problem with lack of compassion is (5.00 / 0) (#225)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:43:22 PM EST
    We know if he suddenly started with that, we would be suspicious. I think the SF told us all about him and it was not a complement. And it will be there for the Republicans to exploit also.  Now we know he would be faking it. So I am thinking BTD might be right on focusing on a issue. The ones he suggested are not on my target list. But Iraq and health insurance are. I hate his plan. When he comes around on that, we might talk.

    Parent
    Isn't That What (1.00 / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:39 PM EST
    Hillary's detractors say about her?

    Guess it is the lowest common denominator line of attack.

    Parent

    I stopped seeing her like that (5.00 / 5) (#85)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:02:52 PM EST
    after Bill was called racist.

    I was like wtf? Bill is teh salt of the earth.

    Hillary Clinton dare I say it, probably had a mad crush on MLK. Her heart and head as illustrated by that LBJ MLK comment suggest MLK had her heart and LBJ had her intellect.  Racist?  Unlikely.

    Parent

    I like that (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by bjorn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:04:24 PM EST
    it seems to fit...I wish someone had made that point when she first said it!

    Parent
    Definitely Not Racists (1.00 / 0) (#126)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:13:48 PM EST
    Although Bill should have not taken the bait and slammed back with the JJ remark. That revealed his weakness under attack, in that he needed to have the ultimate crushing comeback. Not racism, but a really stupid thing to say. He should have kept his trap shut.

    Parent
    nonsense (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:31:09 PM EST
    His comments were nothing.

    Same crap as they pulled on Ferraro.

    Parent

    Disagree (none / 0) (#205)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:34:25 PM EST
    Ferraro's comment seemed racist to me. Unfortunate, not that I ever thought much of her.

    Also Hillary's LBJ comment was accurate and it never seemed remotely a put down to MLK to me.

    Parent

    Of course you say that. Please explain why Obama. (none / 0) (#224)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:42:41 PM EST
    agreed with her saying "he would not be here in the Senate if he wasn't black"?  A paraphrase, so please  but essentially what he said.

    Parent
    yeah btd give bad advice (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:48 PM EST
    Obama comes off phoney as hell when he starts on any populist stuff.  he's a pampered Princeling and it shows.

    I suggest he go back the the arc of history concept.  Something transcendent.  He does that better.

    He should be David Slaying Goliath or Orpheus playing his lyre or Perseus on Bellepheron.

    The nuts and bolts stuff does not suit him.  

    Parent

    Uprated (none / 0) (#92)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:05:01 PM EST
    for the Greek mythological references.

    You slay me, Salo. :-)

    Parent

    Obama only wins if he embodies (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:10:26 PM EST
    an Homeric epic.

    He can't win by reading laundry lists and making it sound like Shakespeare.  Only Bill got to do that magical trick.

    Parent

    I am reminded, with all talk of California, (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:16:40 PM EST
    of something someone said about Grey Davis.
    they said the only way he could win was to fall down a well.

    Parent
    The working class (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:46 PM EST
    doesn't read Homer.

    They read Louis L'Amour.

    That's why Bush beat Gore.

    Parent

    Homer Simpson (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:22:50 PM EST
    maybe

    Parent
    Oh Captain (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:26:02 PM EST
    My Captain!
    You made me laugh again!
    Not easy these days.
    Take a bow, you animal. ;)

    Parent
    that one was so obvious (none / 0) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
    I am suprised no one beat me to it.

    Parent
    I totally disagree. I know many working class... (5.00 / 0) (#219)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:40:33 PM EST
    people who have read the "classics". For example, I worked in surveying and as a construction inspector and worked with many construction workers.  We had great discussions on classical literature, biographies, science, history, etc.  This is a "typical" put down of working class Americans and frankly, it is insinuating the terrible and hateful slur, "white trash".  I am sick and tired that it is ok to denigrate white people because of their economic and job situations.

    BTW, the Homer Simpson comment is even worse.  I can tell you that I have spoken with many of post graduate degreed who love that show.

    Parent

    the illiad (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:46:42 PM EST
    is a thumping blood curdler.

    I particularly liked the duel between Hector and Achilles-- where Achilles armour was bouncing off good killing spear throws. Hector starts getting horrified that his best ain't cutting it. Total abject horror that the better man in every sense was going to lose.

    It must a have been a "penny dreadful" in it's own day.

    A good song ruined by PhDs.

    Parent

    It's written by such folks, I believe (none / 0) (#237)
    by Lysis on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:49:11 PM EST
    The Simpsons is absolutely brilliant, or at least it was during its nineties peak.  I didn't get a good chunk of the jokes until I was in college.  I remember being in my Contemporary Philosophy class and going, "Oh.  That's who Wittgenstein is."

    Parent
    They liked Saving Private Ryan (none / 0) (#188)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:30 PM EST
    The Illiad is a battle on a beach too. Lots of skull crushing and snapped limbs.

    Same narrative structure too.  Hanks and Hector die.

    Parent

    Nothing new (none / 0) (#196)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:31:42 PM EST
    under the sun!

    Parent
    I don't agree (none / 0) (#227)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:43:49 PM EST
    I think he's already got most of the folks he can get with that "trajectory of history" kind of thing.

    Now, I don't want to see Obama out there duck hunting, either -- he's got to avoid looking too blatantly pandery. But he's got to show that he really sympathizes with the working class, particularly outside of urban areas (I think he's probably got the urban vote pretty well at this point). He can't do that with Odysseus, IMO, when most of the working class is doing a more Sisyphean gig. There's "Legendary and cool", and then there's its close friend "Out of touch" -- the problem being that "Out of touch" is a favorite, well worn narrative against us that has worked for quite a while with a chunk of the suburban & rural working class, so it's easy to set up again.

    He's got a sense of humor, he should use it more. He needs to get more specific on economics, make himself look better than McCain early on that front. And he needs to move away from the gigantic university crowds, IMO. I want motivated youth voters, but he's got to show that he can relate well to more different kinds of folks well outside of that scene.

    Parent

    I didn't suggest the Odyssy (none / 0) (#236)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:48:53 PM EST
    I just want to caution against stuff that is clearly out of his character.

    Parent
    On that, we totally agree (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:54:18 PM EST
    The worst mistake Democrats usually make is trying to mold our candidates into personae that they simply cannot convincingly portray.

    Parent
    Obama has unsolvable problems which can cost (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by bridget on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:30:35 PM EST
    him the GE but his nom is secured his supporters say?

    What is wrong with that picture?

    If you ask me, Obama should step down if he can't solve his own problems. Clearly He is the wrong candidate. He had all the opportunities in the world to win me over but it only took one debate to find out what he is made of.

    Just from following the debates - and he lost every single one to Clinton IMO - there is no doubt in my mind that he is not up to the job as Bill was in 92 and Hillary is now in 2008. They both instilled confidence in their voters and there is a reason for it.

    Obama doesn't know to solve his problems because he lacks the knowledge, discipline and ability to define, articulate AND solve policy issues. To witness him hemming and hawing and backtracking, to ask for more time for an answer he should have at the ready but couldn't finish anyway because he didn't know how (remember the driving licence question which he still couldn't answer after two more weeks?) ...

    There is something wrong with this primary campaign and it's Obama.

    But it's not over yet.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#202)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:33:08 PM EST
    and when he had one tough debate,
    he stopped debating.
    Sorry Obama, but that alone
    should disqualify you for the toughest
    job in the world.

    Parent
    ..And we should believe his (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by zfran on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:35:33 PM EST
    message because we think he really believes it, he's pandering for our votes, he's statesmanlike, or just because he says so???

    Right. (none / 0) (#9)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:41:04 PM EST
    Because the gas tax wasn't pandering by Clinton or anything.

    At least I sure hope she didn't actually think it was good policy.

    Parent

    Have you ever heard... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:31 PM EST
    ...that "honesty is the best policy"?

    think about the contradiction in that brilliant observation.  "It's not personal it's our policy" says the oblivious Jobsworthy.

    Policy is inherantly fake.  How can honesty be policy?

    Parent

    Anger (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:40:01 PM EST
    Sorry, there is core anger.  And I am not talking about us.  They did exactly what McGovern did to the party, and I was part of it, back in the day.  

    They created a coalition that subtracted not added along the way.  What do I mean?  Well, in order for him to win, he did the nuclear thing on race.  White people are not gonna want 8 years of being accused of being racist.  Look, if they could accuse the Clinton's, Joe lunch pale is saying, they are gonna make his life miserable.  Obama has nothing to pander to these people.  He played the race card and now it's gonna bite him and bit him hard.  He will lose California because of this and some of the other big states that have the same demographic.  

    HAHAHA (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:45:29 PM EST
    Are you serious?  Obama is going to lose California?

    Wow.  The Obama hate around here is amazing sometimes.

    Parent

    You just watch. (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:48:13 PM EST
    California is not what you all think it is.  

    Parent
    I lived there... (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:49:59 PM EST
    ... for 8 years, and it was just two years ago.

    I am pretty sure that I know what California is.

    And I can guarantee you that he will not lose California.

    Parent

    I lived here and for 40+ yrs. (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    I know the state really well thank you.  California is not a slam dunk.  

    YO.  Agree to Dissagree....don't tell me what to discuss.  

    Parent

    didn't. stella. relax (none / 0) (#54)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:54:26 PM EST
    just stated the obvious.  it is a fact that there are better things to discuss.  

    Parent
    You see...it's about tone (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:00 PM EST
    that certain tone that Obama supporters have, that is why you will lose the election.  You all ooze that tone.  

    Parent
    correct stella (5.00 / 5) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:59 PM EST
    I cant wait until they start trying to tell the great unwashed what is "suitable" for discussion or what is "irrational".


    Parent
    I can't quite put my (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by eric on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:09:10 PM EST
    finger on the source of "that tone", but I sense it as well.  Sort of a combination of youth, naivite, and arrogance.

    Parent
    Entitlement (5.00 / 5) (#163)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:12 PM EST
    it's that entitlement they keep trying to make stick to the Clinton's.


    Parent
    Entitlement (5.00 / 3) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:25:55 PM EST
    thats as good a word as any

    Parent
    in the UK (none / 0) (#211)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:36:09 PM EST
    yung dumb full of c*m.

    Parent
    tone (none / 0) (#231)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:44:25 PM EST
    I do find it ironic that Clinton supporters attack Obama supporters for their tone while using a tone dripping with condescension and attitude.

    Don't get me wrong - both sides have had AWFUL attitudes and tones at many different points.  But it very clearly goes both ways.

    Parent

    I lived there of 15 years (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:54:10 PM EST
    helped get Boxer elected and I disagree.

    Parent
    Boxer is at risk (none / 0) (#80)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:01:03 PM EST
    and Arnold will run against her and he may win.  California is unpredictable.  The race thing is a big issue.  Hispanics vs. Black., Asians vs. Black etc...etc.  Dems are non monolithic and racial politics is a big deal.  Not that I agree with it, but you cannot deny it.  

    Parent
    I seriously doubt (5.00 / 0) (#75)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    he will lose california, and I've lived here all my life.

    That said, I also think that "living in CA" doesn't necessarily give all that much insight unless you've lived in a heck of a lot of different parts. Because let me tell you, the politics here in the central valley are about as different from those on the coast as one can imagine, just as a single example -- I joke with people that we actually live in the midwest. And the population out here is growing,  BTW.

    We're a complicated state, politically and especially regionally.

    Just had to put in my copper coinage, because I've lived here 29 years and I sure as heck don't know what California "is".

    Parent

    Agree... (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:07 PM EST
    ... that California has a widely diverse population, from very conservative rural (or Orange County) voters to wildly progressive academic types.  

    I get that.

    And I still don't think there is a chance in hell that Obama loses California.

    Parent

    It's unlikely for him to lose here (none / 0) (#121)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:12:37 PM EST
    but I wouldn't underestimate the chances of McCain vastly outperforming his party here.

    At the same time, I basically agree that Obama is almost certain to take CA, and probably strongly, in the end.

    And if we're both wrong, CA is the least of our worries, I suspect -- that'd be a landslide scenario in which CA would be pretty much moot anyway.

    Parent

    I agree with the last sentence (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:14:08 PM EST
    you don't get it. i live here now (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by kangeroo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:06 PM EST
    and i can tell you don't understand CA.  we have a moderate republican governor.  in the 4 decades before bill clinton, CA chose the republican presidential candidate 9 out of 10 times--even in the "watergate election" of 1976.  this is yet another example of people failing to appreciate--even glibly taking for granted--the nature and magnitude of how bill clinton expanded the electoral map.  conversely, these same people fail to grasp the way in which obama will shrink that map.

    Parent
    So true (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:37 PM EST
    Bill Clinton was the only democrat in my lifetime to take the state of Arizona on his second term, as well.

    I always watch election returns, and have never thought California was a "given" in any race. WA, on the other hand, hasn't gone Republican since Nixon (v. McGovern).


    Parent

    No... I get it. (none / 0) (#164)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:16 PM EST
    Really.  I get the landscape in California.  I get that you have a moderate Republican governor.  I get that they have chosen the Republican candidate 9 out of 10 times.  I get it.

    I also get that Bill Clinton expanded the map, but I don't think that has much to do with California.

    And I still don't think that there is a chance that Obama loses in California.

    Parent

    yes, your intuition is what counts. (5.00 / 1) (#223)
    by kangeroo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:42:34 PM EST
    not decades of electoral history and not hillary's and mccain's advantages over obama with the fastest growing demographic group in california.  nope, your hunch is what we should go on.  m'kay.

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#235)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:48:22 PM EST
    It has nothing to do with my intuition.

    It has everything to do with the fact that while California has voted Republican over the "decades," it has become a reliable Democrat state.

    Sure - a moderate Republican Gov.  But it is a moderate repub. gov. who got elected because of an AWFUL Democratic Gov on top of running against very lousy Dem candidates, on top of the added advantage of being a celebrity.

    It also has to do with the fact that the polls agree with me.  

    But go ahead and write it off as intuition.  

    Parent

    Davis was not awful (5.00 / 1) (#241)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:53:03 PM EST
    He was a stalwart Democrat.  Why use Republican talking points against him?  Enron and the power stuff brought him down.  Arnold promised a check to every Californian and they voted for him hands down.  

    Then there was Angelidis the perfect "late" democrat.  Great guy.  He lost when he should not have lost.  

    Parent

    reliable? well we'll see. (5.00 / 1) (#253)
    by kangeroo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:00:59 PM EST
    but just remember that polls don't mean jacksh*t this far out before november, and republicans have gained on dems in both presidential elections since bill clinton left office.

    Parent
    Ummm.....no. (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    In politics and elections, nobody can guarantee anything...except maybe Jeb Bush in Florida...

    California can't be trusted.

    Governor grabass.

    Prop. 13

    Class war everywhere...east, west, north, south.

    Parent

    Ummm.....no. (none / 0) (#212)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:36:21 PM EST
    In politics and elections, nobody can guarantee anything...except maybe Jeb Bush in Florida...

    California can't be trusted.

    Governor grabass.

    Prop. 13

    Class war everywhere...east, west, north, south.

    Parent

    Obama will win California. (none / 0) (#31)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:49:54 PM EST
    better things to discuss.

    Parent
    how about this (5.00 / 4) (#178)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:25 PM EST
    you discuss what you want to discuss and we will discuss what we want to discuss.
    k?

    Parent
    Okay, how about New York? (5.00 / 2) (#229)
    by miriam on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:44:11 PM EST
    Do not for one minute think NY is automatic of Obama.  Western NY is Republican territory (until recently when it began to shift, mostly due to Clinton), and there are large voting blocks, like Jewish New Yorkers, that are already showing signs of moving to McCain if Obama is the nominee.  And again, seniors, who are the single most reliable voting block.  If they stay home...

    Parent
    I would ... (5.00 / 1) (#239)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:49:38 PM EST
    ... put money on Obama winning New York also.

    You can all ridicule me in November if Obama loses California and/or New York, but I am quite confident in saying that will not happen.

    Parent

    heres clue from the last thread (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:12 PM EST
    CA has a republican governor and dems only win statewide there with the votes of Hispanics.
    seem the breakdown of Obamas Hispanic supporters?


    Parent
    I know... (none / 0) (#78)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:51 PM EST
    ... who the Governor is.  And I know the Hispanic breakdown.

    And I still say that there is no chance of Obama losing California.  I would put money on it.

    Parent

    stick around (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:02:00 PM EST
    I may take your money

    Parent
    The problem isn't ... (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:52 PM EST
    only a loss.  If McCain continues to poll close in NJ and MASS, and starts pulling close in CA, even Obama's fundraising will be drained to its limits.

    This another reason why Hillary remains the better GE candidate.  Not only does she remove the threats in these states, but the states where she's weak have cheaper media markets.

    Parent

    NY could get iffy also (5.00 / 3) (#187)
    by nycstray on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:29 PM EST
    Lots of red support for Clinton. She won her re-election with 67%. Obama doesn't swap well in that area. We have a lot of typical working class whites also . . . Rural is another issue for him here plus other groups he's not as strong with . . .

    Parent
    I want in on that action too (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:49 PM EST
    Me three! (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by nycstray on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:30:25 PM EST
    Don't bet the farm (none / 0) (#153)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:52 PM EST
    this isn't Las Vegas where you at least have a tgeeny, tiny chance of winning.

    Here?

    None.

    Parent

    wow yourself (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by DFLer on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:05:59 PM EST
    Just because some poster says that they think Obama will lose CA, doesn't mean they HATE Obama. It may just mean they are wrong.

    AND, the indictment of all "around here" with Obama hate is just overreacting.

    Parent

    If you say so. (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:44 PM EST
    But I have been reading Stellaa write about her Obama hate for months.

    It isn't anything new.  And there is a lot of Obama hate around here.  That also is not new.

    Parent

    So go where there is some Obama love (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:12:31 PM EST
     I quit going to HuffPo because of the Clinton Hate.

    Parent
    Because... (none / 0) (#141)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:37 PM EST
    ... I have been around here longer than many of you, and for the most part I like this place.

    Sorry you don't want me around, but I will probably be staying.

    Parent

    Fine. Stay. (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:41 PM EST
    Just stop exaggerating.

    Yes, many of us are critical of Obama the candidate, of his campaign's origins, its reason for existance at all, its behavior toward the Clintons and their experience, yadda, yadda...that, however, does not equate to hate.

    It is extremely rare (and then removed) that Obama criticism here is despicable, personal, mean-spirited, unsourced, an outright lie...unlike some other venues I could name whose treatment of Hillary's candidacy can have no excuse or defense whatever.

    Do not make things up.

    Parent

    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#206)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:34:37 PM EST
    It is extremely rare (and then removed) that Obama criticism here is despicable, personal, mean-spirited, unsourced, an outright lie
    Yea... fair enough, and that is why I stay.

    And that is also why I don't visit some of the other places that you won't name.

    But I still think that there is a decent amount of Obama hate around here, but we will just agree to disagree on that one.

    Parent

    No, not hate (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:00 PM EST
    its not trusting, not respecting, not believing...  Hate is vague and oversimplification.  I hate fennel, but with politicians there are things about them that through looking at their character and behaviour that I find that I do not care to support.  

    So, please don't reduce my opinion to some high school emotion.  

    Parent

    It's not personal, it's politics (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:01 PM EST
    Obama has kicked a President, First Lady/sitting U.S. Senator/candidate that many of us hold in really high esteem. He has not hesitated to attack the great things they have done for this country, called them liars, thieves, and racists.

    The Clintons gave us 8 pretty great years amidst the republican messes of the past 3 decades. We can't just brush off our shoulders, scratch our cheek, and hand him another pillow.

    Parent

    he has worked so hard (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:13:17 PM EST
    to build it up.
    why should we "deny it to him"

    Parent
    No, not hate (none / 0) (#140)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:35 PM EST
    its not trusting, not respecting, not believing...  Hate is vague and oversimplification.  I hate fennel, but with politicians there are things about them that through looking at their character and behaviour that I find that I do not care to support.  

    So, please don't reduce my opinion to some high school emotion.  

    Parent

    Maybe Your Hate Is Not HS (none / 0) (#161)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:23:22 PM EST
    But your love sure seems so. I have never read one criticism about Hillary from you, seems like a HS crush to me.

    Parent
    Maybe that's because Stellaaa (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:31:09 PM EST
    doesn't bother with petty, unimportant criticism, so popular with nitpickers these days.

    Parent
    Squeeky of Fromm fame...!! (5.00 / 2) (#215)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:38:13 PM EST
    Once again you are wrong.  I see Hillary's life experience and her bumps and bruises, that is why I support her candidacy.   I support her because of her faults.  You choose to minimize my support for her by calling it a crush, the other minimizes by not supporting Obama as hate.  Both, trivialize how I came to this point.  

    Frankly, I don't care what you think, but just pointing out to you two the limitations of your observations.  

    Parent

    that is fair... (none / 0) (#222)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:41:21 PM EST
    ... for the most part, though I never diminished how you came to support Clinton.

    I would just argue that your tone about Obama would make many think that you hate the guy, or at least strongly, strongly dislike him.

    Parent

    I do not support (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:43:36 PM EST
    his candidacy for the Democratic nomination or his candidacy for president.

    Parent
    Is it really necessary to answer anyone's (none / 0) (#45)
    by Joelarama on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:52:49 PM EST
    comment with a subject line like "HAHAHAGA"?  If you paid attention, this commenter always adds a lot to arguments.

    Parent
    California has a huge latino population (none / 0) (#258)
    by nellre on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:10:48 PM EST
    Obama may lose CA.

    Parent
    stop making things up. (3.00 / 2) (#46)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:00 PM EST
    white people have voted for obama (you don't win wisconsin, iowa, wyoming, etc.).  he won 40% of the white vote two days ago.  this is a tough campaign against a tough opponent but to suggest that white dems won't vote for him is suggesting the results are purely driven by african americans (demographics don't suggest this).  white dems aren't racist are they?  they'll support him come november.  just like black dems would support hillary over mccain.  comments like yours promote irrational thinking.

    Parent
    are you guys (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:57:12 PM EST
    going to try this stuff in the general?
    that will be some show.
    I am starting to look forward to it.

    Parent
    Race issue (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Lou Grinzo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:22:36 PM EST
    To me, the race issue is not whether white Clinton supporters will vote for Obama, but what percentage of white Republicans and even Independents will vote for him, especially after the Republicans and their 527's (plus FOX, et al.) have made sure the entire planet has memorized every scary phrase that Wright has ever uttered.

    Rove and those of his ilk have to be laughing themselves silly.  The Dems get an experienced, well known woman that their base hates and a charismatic, inexperienced black man to run against each other, and then almost tear themselves apart and nominate the black man.  Honestly, does anyone here think that the Republicans won't push the racism angle harder than we've ever seen in a national race?  If Obama is the nominee, I expect a tidal wave of racist garbage from the Republicans, right up to election day.


    Parent

    He needs to walk back the Clintons are racists... (5.00 / 10) (#10)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:41:07 PM EST
    ..stuff. I don't know how he can do this but he has to. Right now a lot of non-Obama supporters I know are thinking that Obama as president means 4 years of not being able to say a bad thing about him because they will be accused of being racists. I'm not saying they are wrong or right, but we all know what's been going on. This is an uncomfortable position for a lot of people. By repudiating the racist smear against the Clintons he will send a signal to these voters that this isn't how things will be. But will  he be candid enough to do this? Much of this has been done by surrogates, not him so it may be easier for him personally to try to "stay above the fray." It's also complicated by the fact that these tactics have benefited him in the primary; but they will be disastrous in the GE. Therefore, it's really necessary. He started this conversation on race and he needs to advance it further than where he's left it.

    said the same thing above (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:46:47 PM EST
    Will not get white vote, if he could paint the Clintons as racist, white people don't want that stuff over their head.  I tell you that is how he will lose California.  There is no magic bullet.  

    Please pay attention, it's not a "racists" vote, what the Obama campaign did with the anti Clinton stuff is totally destroy any chances he had with white people.  

    Parent

    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Trickster on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:48:07 PM EST
    This would help him a BUNCH.  If "the first black President" is now a big slobbering racist, think how regular middle-of-the-road honkies feel?  Obama is SCARY to them.

    It would make me feel better about supporting him, too.  Because first principles are first, and people are first principles.  I'm not ABOUT to turn my back on the Clintons in favor of the guy who participated in demonizing them.  Supreme Court be damned; that's an outcome, not a first principle.

    But it's not really about issues.  It's about identity.  And as little as I care for Obama, I think I could offer him a really winning tip: play more basketball.  On TV when possible.  When the fancy speeches have punched all the tickets they're gonna punch, basketball is his ace in the hole.

    Parent

    Clarification (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Trickster on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:51:38 PM EST
    When I say SCARY, I don't mean in the "typical white grandma seeing a scary black person across the street" way, I mean in the white middle manager with an unsatisfactory black subordinate who needs to be fired way.  In other words, the fear is of being branded a racist, with all the opprobrium and outright danger that entails.

    Parent
    Yes, this is a must (5.00 / 6) (#91)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:04:25 PM EST
    He lost working class whites when he or his supporters painted  the Clintons as racists. We know that if it can happen to them it can happen to any one of us.

    Parent
    I don't think he can until (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:50 PM EST
    Clinton starts dialing back the hard working white people line of attack she is pushing right now.

    "I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

    This the kind of statement that I would expect from a southern republican, not a democratic canidate.

    Parent

    This isn't an attack on a group of people.... (5.00 / 6) (#122)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:13:06 PM EST
    ....it isn't even an attack, but rather a description of what she perceives as her base of support. She isn't accusing anybody of anything.

    Parent
    Ladies and Gentleman Exhibit A (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:19 PM EST
    of Obama's problem.  You have just wonderfully illustrated the point.  Your suggestion is that recognizing the interests of the white working class and playing to their needs is inherently racist, or that it is inherently racist to identify the size and scope of that demographic in comparison to the size and scope of other demographics when identifying your loyal base.  In an ideal world, Clinton would just say working class, but since black working class voters are opting for racial pride (perfectly legitimate) over their shared economic interests with white working class voters, she can't claim them as her base.  I wish she would have been more careful to include Latinos in her statement, but since they have not been a significant demographic in recent primaries, she does not have recent evidence of shifts in their allegiances.

    Parent
    I hit post before finishing (5.00 / 2) (#208)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:35:20 PM EST
    by saying that Obama is trapped in his own deployment of race in this election.  He can't connect to these voters in part because he has already used them as his designated fall guys to cover for his own deficiencies as a candidate (i.e. weak on empathy, weak on Americana, and weakest of all on bread and butter policy points which is most important).  Is it too late for him to make nice and to listen, hear, and respond to white (and Latino) blue collar needs?  You better hope not given the size and the scope of that demographic.  But if he is strategically blowing off WV and KY to delegitimize their vote, that's not a promising start.

    Parent
    Obama won't win ? (5.00 / 3) (#190)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:30:31 PM EST
    because of Clinton?  

    It's all Clinton's fault.

    Parent

    So it's okay (none / 0) (#259)
    by kayla on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:13:00 PM EST
    For Obama to say that he's not getting the white working class vote because, and I paraphrase, "I'm a 46 year old black man named Barack Obama." but not okay for Hillary to say what's pretty much a fact?

    Really?  Please stop with the double standards.  It doesn't work.  

    Parent

    This is so key (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:40 PM EST
    I've heard more than one person express in frustration the fear of waking up everyday to another accusation of racism.  It's an exhausting prospect to think that you are going to be held hostage for the next 8 years.  This is the dirty downside of identity politics.  It's the constant fear that you will do something wrong even though you did not mean it.  We never get past thinking of people who don't look like us as the "other."  First we treat "others" too cruelly, then we overcompensate by treating "others" too gently.  Then you get frustrated because you are still trapped in us and them, only now not by ignorance and bigotry but instead by guilt and good intentions.  And you know what they say about good intentions paving the road to hell.  This phenomenon is of course no more Obama's fault than it is Clinton's fault.  But I've lost respect for him because he has played this game to his political advantage during the primary. Now let him suffer the political costs during the GE.  Republicans don't do guilt.  And now they have plenty of examples to prove that guilt doesn't pay, because you are going to get accused of being evil anyway.

    Parent
    The mayor of Gary (none / 0) (#250)
    by BarnBabe on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:55:52 PM EST
    That sent a message of how things will be done. And it was not a very pretty sight. And what could anyone really say. Obama could have called him and said, get those votes in NOW. Because he did not, it left me wondering.  

    Parent
    For me it's health care. Not his, though. (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:41:25 PM EST


    First, I think his problem is unsolvable. (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:41:47 PM EST
    He does not care about the working class. He has made that abundantly clear.

    However, the best of your ideas IMHO, BTD, is the American exceptionalism stuff.

    The thing that McCain will use against Obama most is the "God D**n America" sentiment expressed so eloquently by Reverend Wright.

    I'd say, keep bringing out the kids. Show Obama at a baseball game. Make sure the Obamas' house has a flag in front of it. Find some patriotic stuff that Obama did.

    It might help a little.

    I think McCain (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:47:00 PM EST
    can out flag-wave him.

    I'm probably a voice in the wilderness here,
    but I insist the the lack of connection Obama has with the majority of voters (I'm talking GE) is
    crucial.  People do vote their hearts, not their minds.

    Parent

    No, I agree 100%. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:48:44 PM EST
    He cannot beat McCain in any category - experience, patriotism or media spin as a Moderat Maverick.

    But if you are an Obama supporter and you're looking for a way your guy can try to solve his voter problem, I think this is the way you should go. As I said, it might help a little.

    Parent

    If the right wing machine gets their chance at him (5.00 / 9) (#86)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:03:07 PM EST
    there is a large contingent of Hillary supporters who will think he deserves it. Karma smarts.

    There is a line that cannot be crossed, not even in politics. But Obama's campaign, and Obama, himself, didn't even hesitate to call the Clinton's, I repeat, the CLINTON'S, racists.

    He and his campaign have consistently denegrated the Clinton administration through the bully tactic of exclusion, and he accuses them of lying, cheating, stealing, and on and on.

    Granted, he is in new territory with the spouse of a former president as his opponent, but he is the one who said he was changing politics and he should have laid out boundaries that showed he could actually pull that off.

    He missed a great opportunity to show himself presidential beyond a doubt. Treat our former First Lady with common courtesy and the respect she deserves, and show us through example what that new politics looks like. If he was truly the better candidate, he could have sold that without demeaning the best president we've had in decades.

    Parent

    It is not... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:17 PM EST
    ... about "out flag-wav(ing) him."

    As much as I hate the flag=patriotism thing, Obama does need to "prove" to some that he is patriotic.  I think this is b.s., but that is beside the point.

    But it is not about being more patriotic than McCain, but instead it is simply showing voters that he is "patriotic" enough.

    Parent

    It's not b. s. (none / 0) (#72)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:48 PM EST
    It's politics and symbols - like words - matter.

    Parent
    I know... (none / 0) (#88)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:03:35 PM EST
    ... that it is politics and symbols, and I still think it is b.s.

    It matters, but I still think it is b.s.

    Parent

    but do you understand (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:05:07 PM EST
    that when it comes to who win in Nov it doesnt matter what you think?

    Parent
    flag pins (none / 0) (#106)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    are not going to win this election. Ending Iraq and minimizing the recession will.

    Parent
    Yeah, bring out HIS kids, not the young (none / 0) (#17)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:43:43 PM EST
    voters. My mother doesn't much care for Obama but whenever she sees them as a family, she's a little warmer toward him. She loves those little girls.

    Parent
    Exactly - they're adorable (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:44:41 PM EST
    and they show a more human side of Obama and his wife, Michelle.

    Pictures speak louder than words...

    Parent

    funny (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:51:18 PM EST
    what I usually think when I see them is of them sitting listening to Wright spew hate.

    Parent
    Ouch. (3.00 / 2) (#55)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:54:27 PM EST
    They're still cute.

    Budding America-haters that they are! ;-)

    Parent

    Sunday School (none / 0) (#50)
    by CST on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:26 PM EST
    The kids didn't sit and listen to that... They were in Sunday School.

    Parent
    Except... (none / 0) (#67)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:58:05 PM EST
    ... they would have been in Sunday School.

    Funny when facts get in the way, isn't it?

    Parent

    facts (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:22 PM EST
    interesting
    so you know they never sat through a Wright sermon.


    Parent
    So you KNOW... (none / 0) (#134)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:16:19 PM EST
    ... that every one of Wright's sermons contained "hate?"

    Interesting.

    And you KNOW that they sat in a sermon?

    Also interesting.

    Parent

    I never said I *know* anything (none / 0) (#165)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:19 PM EST
    I said when I see them that is what comes to my mind.
    I would call that abuse.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:55:23 PM EST
    he's got to show off "I'm part of an everyday family too".

    What I think of as "the Amazing-Person-Claiming-His-Place narrative" that Axelrod has created is IMO actually a bit damaging to him with some segments of voters.


    Parent

    Has Obama expressed interest in Baseball? (none / 0) (#166)
    by nycstray on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:22 PM EST
    Obama's big problem is going to be not looking like an absolute phony. He's spent so much time being "above it all", coming back to earth my just hurt . . . a lot.

    And if he starts pandering, especially with women, he's toast (imo).

    Parent

    Obama is a Madison Ave. (5.00 / 11) (#14)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:43:03 PM EST
    candidate through and through.  He got this far through cheap, meaningless slogans.  He won't change that.

    Had he done what you suggested prior to Super Tuesday, he might have truly won by now.  

    The fact that he didn't tells you a lot.  If he can't reach out to the base during a primary season, what makes anyone think he will do it in the general?

    He thinks his current strategy is a winning GE strategy.  He's wrong.

    See, women know through experience (5.00 / 6) (#64)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:56:33 PM EST
    that men like Obama do not change.

    You can believe and hope and dream all you want.

    He is who he is.

    Parent

    woo! (none / 0) (#90)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:04:24 PM EST
    So if I made a comment about how women were so emotional and changed their opinions based on emotion, would my sexist comments be allowed?

    Parent
    Did I say all men? (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:16 PM EST
    No.

    My comments were not sexist, they referred directly to men like Obama.

    Typical distortion and false equivalency. Such a boring tactic.

    Parent

    I'm a man ... (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:55 PM EST
    and I know men like Obama don't change.

    Parent
    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:05:53 PM EST
    It worked with George W. Bush.

    I see a lot of similarities in their campaigns--emphasis on vague, soaring rhetoric, promises of unity, deliberate fuzziness on policy positions (George W. Bush had a website with policy papers too).

    I can only hope Obama will be a better president. In terms of policy, certainly. But in terms of actually managing the country and getting things back on track? If my company hired a CEO with so little experience...

    Parent

    On empty logo's like BO look 4 the hand up his @ss (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Ellie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:26:50 PM EST
    Every over the top Obama booster (cf list) is banking on getting this gaffe-a-day rookie under their wing and slobbering at the chance to control his juicy new hoards (assuming they'll show up after the nomination race.)

    It's easier than facing the more knowledgeable voters and splainin' themselve or, you know, winning an election.

    (DNC, OBoiz, Deanna-Brazile Dems, power starved irrelevant Dem has-beens like Bonny Prince Kerry, shamed "lefty" media lapdogs for Bush, fauxgressive job seekers blah blah blah)

    Parent

    politics is stupid (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:43:07 PM EST
    this is a frequently overlooked (think Kerry) fact.
    Kerry thought people were smart enough to just know he didnt shoot himself to get out of the military.
    this comes from living in their elitist bubble.
    the Clintons know how to win with us low income, low information, low brows.
    and if you dont have us you dont have a winner.


    Spitballs? (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by katiebird on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:43:41 PM EST
    I spit on . . .

    (shrug) Oh, never mind.  BTD, Obama just can't stop himself.  He'll say whatever he thinks is amusing.

    well... (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Turkana on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:44:33 PM EST
    it's better than dukakis. i hope.

    please (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:50:07 PM EST
    no tanks

    Parent
    how about a tractor? (none / 0) (#233)
    by Nasarius on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:46:28 PM EST
    All that he needs is a helmet: linkage

    Parent
    Perhaps if Obama had (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by suisser on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:44:56 PM EST
    campaigned on a platform of policy ideas rather than his personal appeal we wouldn't need to be having this conversation.

    amen (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:46:26 PM EST


    agreed (none / 0) (#40)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:51:42 PM EST
    he is also the recipient of praise and compliments on other left blog sites. All well-deserved.

    Parent
    Yup. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    I remember not agreeing - at all - with his tone back on DK....but he's a changed man.  

    Parent
    Good ideas, but (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by dem08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:50:14 PM EST
     anyone reading the Big Tent posts has to realize that Obama will lose in a Landslide.

    Big Tent does favor an Obama/Clinton ticket, but the support for that seems less than vigorous, especially among Talk Left comments, where the idea of Hillary taking a back seat to Obama provokes raw and wide-spread rage.

    Mostly, even including Big Tent's posts, the argument here is that only Hillary stands a chance of winning in November.

    Although such an outcome is unlikely, Hillary is still a viable candidate.

    What if a significant number of Obama supporters, like Big Tent, publicly threw their support to Hillary on the notion of who can actually win? It might make a difference.

    Otherwise Obama will get the votes of people like me who voted for Kerry and Gore and every Democratic candidate since George McGovern.

    Dream ticket question again today (none / 0) (#112)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:09:01 PM EST
    came to Obama through a viewer on Wolf's program. Obama, again, hmmmm'd through the response and refuses to answer. The closest he has come, though. He said anyone would have her on their short list, and until he has the nomination there is no discussion on who his running mate will be.


    Parent
    But I thought he's already delared himself (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:14:45 PM EST
    the winner?

    Parent
    I'll give you two. (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    Women's rights - from equal opportunity to reproductive rights.  I can't remember the last time Obama specifically talked about how he was going to support Women.  Add in his kinda-maybe-Universal Health Care Plan targeting ONLY children and WOMEN making up the majority of single parents and you have WOMEN getting hit with the mandates while child free MEN get off.

    My big Issue is Climate Change/Crisis, with sides of Peak Oil and Energy Security thrown in.  Dealing effectively with these issues means mandates, not unreliable incentive programs.  Front burner too, not some ignored back burner issue.

    Peak Oil (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:53 PM EST
    is probably our number one problem, but it would be pretty ballsy to try to turn it into campaign issue.  I don't think people can handle the truth yet.

    Parent
    I know. (none / 0) (#214)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:38:01 PM EST
    I keep butting heads on Daily Kos with people who think we'll magick our way out of the crisis somehow.  Even when I painfully detail exactly what the problems are, they still say "No!  That can't be!".

    Someone needs to do an Econ 101 presentation on the consequences of Limited Resources for these people.  I can't get it through their heads that the very food they eat is grown, harvested, preserved and transported with fossil fuels - therefore more expensive and scarcer fossil fuels means....more expensive and scarcer food.  Inconvenient Truths...Gore is ever so right.

    Parent

    Well, here's some news (5.00 / 5) (#155)
    by chancellor on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:21:32 PM EST
    Obama is the only one of the three major Dem candidates who didn't/doesn't have a "Women's Issues" section on his campaign website; Edwards and Hillary both did/do. So do I, as a woman, think he's suddenly going to make me believe he's committed to women's economic equality, protection of health care rights, daycare affordability, etc? I think you can guess the answer.

    Parent
    Are you kidding? (5.00 / 1) (#230)
    by Fabian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:44:21 PM EST
    Obama's crack team of advisors left out Women's Issues?  

    That man keeps on giving me reasons not to like him or trust him.  He can have some big ol' Speech on Race, but women don't even rate a mention on his oft-referred to website?

    I am just NOT feeling the Unity here.  Give me a real Democrat to vote for, not some bipartisan who swings both ways.

    Parent

    iN kY, Obama advocates for "Clean Coal" (5.00 / 1) (#249)
    by tokin librul on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:55:22 PM EST
    A position which might endear him the the miners and the mine owners (Robert Murray, of the Crandall Canyon Mine cave-in, has his roots in those parts), but seems to me foolish in the larger energy picture, as the technologies to create a coal-sourced energy system absent the pollution are both 1) incomplete and 2) impractical, beside the fact that they probably won't work...

    Parent
    To 'solve the problem' (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:59 PM EST
    we first have to agree on what 'the problem' is.

    Are we agreed that the problem is Obama's electability in the fall - his inability to attract Clinton-supporting working-class folks (white and Hispanic) in numbers great enough to win the presidency?  And his inability to heal the divisions within the party...

    Assuming without Clinton on the ticket - right?  Obama and 'somebody.'

    If it's Obama/somebody, we're doomed.

    And if it's Hillary/somebody, we're doomed.

    Hillary/Obama...maybe.

    Best bet:  Gore/Clinton  (mostly likely combination to heal the party, get the nomination, win the election).

    All other options...convince me, somebody...

    Clinton/Gore (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by karen for Clinton on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:33:50 PM EST
    I am a member of Al's green groups and get an occasional mass mailing.  One day back in January I hit respond and sent Al a short plea to solve the problem and recycle those Clinton/Gore signs.

    And I added Gore/Clinton would be great too.

    Parent

    Obama even with Clinton will lose. (5.00 / 1) (#252)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:58:37 PM EST
    He can't connect with white middle and working class people, Catholics, Hispanics, Seniors, women and Asians.  He has totally blown it with Jewish people because of Wright, Farrakhan, Hamas, etal.  Hillary has made inroads with young people (she has won this demographic with states such as CA, and she usually carries the older Millenials).  She has improved significantly with white males and independents and has won both in several of the latest states that have voted.  The only demographic that has stuck with Obama is AAs.  

    Hillary will do at least as well with AAs as any other Democrat not named Obama; and if not, I can't see a significant number going to McCain  I see more of a depressed turnout and to be blunt, not a game changing occurrence for her against McCain.  I believe that with Obama as her VP, it will actually hurt her with her  coalition.  I think that she can pick a VP either for a swing state/region pick up or to shore up her credentials on perceived "weakness" apropos  to McCain.

    As to BTD's assertion to fixing Obama's "problem"; I state uncategorically, he can't no matter what he tries.  He will lose and lose big.  His ceiling, IMOP, is Kerry's showing.  I tend to think more like Dukakis and even McGovern like showing.

    Parent

    One of the big problems (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:54:29 PM EST
    I think Obama has going forward is that he has already trashed the one model he could point to as representing the success of Democratic policies: the Presidency of Bill Clinton. He's essentially declared that an economic failure too -- as I'm sure McCain will be quick to point out.

    But what does Obama have to differentiate himself from Bill Clinton, and lead to success instead of Clinton's supposed failure?

    Why, nothing, of course.

    Presidency of Bill Clinton (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:55:52 PM EST
    THIS is what many democrats will never forgive him for.
    I am working on it. but I am not there yet.

    Parent
    Democrats have to ... (5.00 / 6) (#115)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:10:21 PM EST
    accept that Bill Clinton was the first Democratic president to win re-election since FDR.

    They have to understand why this is so.

    But many Obama supporters would rather lose the GE than face this.

    Parent

    Yet, today on Wolf B (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:14:19 PM EST
    he didn't repeat his PA debate policy that he would follow Reaganomics, he said he would return to the tax structure of the 90's. So, now that he thinks Hillary is nearly out, he's taking the policies of the Clinton's without crediting them directly.

    Such a piece of work.

    Parent

    Exactly. EXACTLY. (5.00 / 5) (#138)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:18:11 PM EST
    I've been going over this in my mind.

    What is the Democratic brand? We have our policies, of course, but really people want to know what life is going to be like if we're in the White House. Really, the only Democratic administration in recent memory is the Clinton administration. And it was hugely successful. It was the best argument our party had to reclaim power. Obama has deliberately tried to destroy that, to make it seems as if the 1990's were some era of poisonous politics and economic darkness.

    Think of someone born in 1950. This person is 58 years old now. How many Democratic presidents has she seen in her adult lifetime, which began in 1968?

    Two. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. In 40 years, we've held the White House for 12 of them. In the last 32 years, the only Democrat in the White House has been Bill Clinton.

    But what years those were--strong, robust economic growth; tens of millions of new jobs at all levels of income; peace at home and respect abroad.

    You would think that the Democratic Party, in making its case to the American people, would emphasize this as much as possible. And we did. Clinton got himself off his operating table in 2004 to help Kerry, and ran himself ragged in 2006 to help our congressional candidates.

    Now, our party's new leader and his political and media allies have done everything they can to diminish that legacy. It's a tragedy and outrage beyond words.

    Parent

    Barack as a pure vessel of change (5.00 / 9) (#57)
    by BoGardiner on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:54:31 PM EST
    I know Obama's got to do SOMETHING different, because today's piece in Huffpo, "Obama's Consolidation of the Party," isn't going to work.  It's supposedly by Matt Stoller but must surely be a plant by the Onion.  Below is Huffpo's digest of the piece, as emailed in today's Daily Digest:

    "The primary has been exceptionally good for Party building. Obama has created a number of significant infrastructure pieces through his campaign, displacing traditional groups the way he promised he would by signaling the end of the old politics of division and partisanship.

    Obama made his bet that the country isn't into ideological combat and wants a politics of unity and hope, and he has won at [sic] internally. From top to bottom, they have destroyed their opponents within the party, stolen out from under them their base, and persuaded a whole set of individuals from blog readers to people in the pews to ignore intermediaries and believe in Barack as a pure vessel of change."

    Where to start?

    "The primary has been exceptionally good for Party building." This, of course, in spite of their efforts to crush it.

    Gloating that Obama has "displaced traditional groups" and "destroyed his opponents within the party." This is something to be proud of?!  

    And by destroying Democratic groups and opponents, he has "won internally" at creating a "politics of unity"?!  The cognitive dissonance makes one reel.

    "Barack as a pure vessel of change"?!  Do they really expect moderates to be anything but nauseated by such talk?

    BTD, can you discuss?

    So now I am displaced. I hope I don't (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:01:14 PM EST
    displace my ballot in November.

    Parent
    Heh. Or my wallet - (none / 0) (#175)
    by liminal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:27:03 PM EST
    - in the interim.  

    Parent
    displacing (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Monda on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:33:05 PM EST
    Displacing, destroying etc, and then "unity" and "vessel of change"?  These words must have changed definition in the English language, otherwise I don't see how they could be in the same paper, let alone paragraph or sentence.

    Parent
    First, thanks for thinking constructively BTD (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by thomphool on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:55:11 PM EST
    It's an interesting place Obama is in, and it's a matter of coming up with a message that can really stick that fits within the framework he's already set up.  

    The framework and argument behind Obama's campaign seems to be that the problems we have are, at their root caused by the culture of politics we have created- from lobbyist influence, to pandering policy proposals to partisanship defining idealism.  Everything in his campaign comes at us through that narrative frame (and, for the moment, I think it's fair to give him credit for sincerity in the underlying belief in this line of reasoning, though I have to admit at times during the campaign I've had serious doubts and felt it is some kind of a gimmick).  Thus far in the campaign, he hasn't been arguing that we don't need to address the problems of the working class, he's argued that in order to address those problems we first need to change the culture of politics (this, btw, is I think his biggest liability, or one of them in the general... McCain is going to try to steal this issue from them- that's the Rove/Atwater playbook- you attack the strength and make it into a weakness, and McCain, at least in the mind of many w/ his name being attached to campaign finance reform has the credibility to do this).  

    Obama's problem is thus finding a way to connect better and explain better why changing the attitude leads to better economic conditions for the working class.  He's tried to do it with his advertising, but I think to this point it's had only limited success.  His working class ads that he's run have all tied back to this theme, and I just don't know if it's resonating.  He's gotta tweak this message somehow, but not seem as though he's doing it to pander (because that would undermine the entire premise of his campaign).  It's going to be tough.  I hope his campaign staff is better at figuring this out than I am, and have already figured out the repositioning that fits within their narrative, but for the life of me, I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, and it's been one of the reasons candidate Obama has scared me from a GE perspective.  

    At some point we have to face it: (5.00 / 4) (#66)
    by Jim J on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:57:13 PM EST
    Much like George Bush, Obama believes what he says, no matter how clueless.

    He believes he doesn't need Michigan or Florida, he believes most of what Rev. Wright has preached to him for 20 years, he believes Bill and Hillary are essentially running a racist campaign, he believes he doesn't need white blue collar workers, he believes Latinos are not worth a special effort to bring into the party, he believes he's smarter than you.

    Occasionally he gets it right, as when he opposed the obviously stupid gas tax holiday idea. But mostly not.

    We shouldn't overanalyze this.

    I tend to agree with (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:02:03 PM EST
    Jim J.

    I'm sad because I don't see a way that Obama
    can win the GE (and let me add, for anyone who
    doesn't already know, that I support Hillary).

    Call me naive, but I think Hillary cares about me,
    and Obama doesn't.  But I still want a Democrat in
    the White House.

    Parent

    Nope. (5.00 / 7) (#131)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:14:58 PM EST
    He wasn't right about the gas-tax holiday.

    He played that card as well as he could but he wasn't 'right' in playing it.  Hillary was.  She jumped on McCain and one-upped him with the populist message...not just "I feel your pain and I'm going to do something about it" but also "I'm gonna make those blankety-blank oil barons pay for it."

    Obama is too slow on the draw and tone deaf to populism.  Elitists often are.

    It's that old saw about sincerity..."once you can fake that, you've got it made."

    Obama is a B actor...no wonder he hearted Ronnie.

    Parent

    Just because... (2.00 / 0) (#150)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM EST
    ... Clinton may have had the better "populist" message does not mean that it was the best policy.

    Parent
    Heh....first with the obvious! (5.00 / 1) (#245)
    by oldpro on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:54:44 PM EST
    No kidding, "just because" is one of my favorite "oh yeahs!"

    Look...BTD's post is partly about how Obama can tweak his message to GET SOME VOTES re those who respond to Hillary's populist message.  Hello?  

    So the message IS the issue here...as it always is in campaigns.  Policy is important but in this case, not very... neither Obama or Clinton is in a position to make GWB take their advice on anything....and in this case, Obama echoes Bush's 'policy' re gas-tax holiday:  Nope.  Do nothing.  Great message, huh?

    Duh.

    Parent

    Jim J. I also agree we shouldn't overanalyze (5.00 / 1) (#247)
    by bridget on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:55:11 PM EST
    except IMO the Obama campaign is like the Bush White House:
    whatever they say THINK EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE

    and people who are still seduced by someone who runs basically only on change and hope (just about like everyone else has done in the past) must be either very young or in denial.

    From the start I thought Obama copied Bill's 92 campaign but he failed because he lacked the charisma, knowledge, compassion, and discipline AND Toughness Bill always had. Still has. Hillary may not have Bill's charisma but she has shown her own impressive strenghts in this campaign.

    Parent

    I'll tell you what won't work (5.00 / 9) (#73)
    by andgarden on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:59:52 PM EST
    The asinine Stoller/Bowers argument that the Creative Class will take over the Democratic party. Whenever I hear that term, I want to smack someone.

    LOL!!! n/t (none / 0) (#180)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    This above all else - (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by eric on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:05:37 PM EST
    He needs to start talking in absolutes.  People need to believe that he actually believes in something concrete.  The one constant, overriding concern that I hear from everyone is that Obama is too vague, uses too many platitudes, speaks in generalities.

    I am not saying he needs to change his grand speaking style.  It seems to work on a lot of people.  But apparently, working class folks want something a little more palpable.

    I agree with that too (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:11:46 PM EST
    The times I have liked him best he has done so, like last week with his presser on Wright.  I think he is talented enough to strike a better balance between the soaring rhetoric and nuts and bolts.

    I think after his campaign retools for the GE he will be a much better candidate.  

    Parent

    One of his bigger problems is how the H*LL is (5.00 / 6) (#104)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:58 PM EST
    he going to bring us back to the standards of the 90's after he disparaged the Clinton administration so much.

    Obama will "reach out" to clinton voters (5.00 / 7) (#109)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:28 PM EST
    by expressing confidence they will vote for him, while his aides assure the press and Obama's corporate backers that only racists oppose him.

    What does it say about him, as a candidate (5.00 / 8) (#114)
    by Anne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:10:03 PM EST
    and a person, that this late in the process he might have to be searching for a winning message?  Nothing particularly good - but this is what happens when you don't have any idea who you are or what you believe in.  He's lulled thousands of people into thinking that lofty rhetoric equals populism, but it doesn't.

    The sad truth appears to be that someone with an elitist attitude, expressed over and over again, will have no authenticity trying to adopt a populist message.  

    It's too bad that his health care plan isn't universal since more and more people have no insurance and those who do are seeing their premiums rise and their coverage get worse.

    It's too bad that he has felt it necessary to bad mouth the last Democratic administration for no other reason than that if he had something nice to say it migh - gasp! - have helped that awful Hillary Clinton.

    It's even worse, and I can find no way to defend or excuse it, that for the same reason - his own self-interest - he chose to condone and encourage attacking the Clintons as racists when he knows - we all know - that they are no such thing.  Self-interest again, but in a way that has poisoned and undermined race relations in a way that will take a long time to heal - if it does.

    If he could buy some class and grace, and a work ethic that shows the American people he's actually prepared to do the hard job he's running for, he'd be rolling in clover, but as the commercial goes, it's priceless.

    As my husband says, (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:15:13 PM EST
    I don't need a candidate that's learning as he goes along.

    All of a sudden he's going to talk about issues now?

    No, he won't. His entire candidacy is geared to winning the primary. He has nowhere to go after that.

    McCain can be just as substance-free as Obama, you know. And his mistakes will all be covered up by the corporate media. Plus, he will have the real KKKarl on his side, not the pale imitation.

    Parent

    Problem can't be solved with more "talk" (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by diplomatic on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:10:41 PM EST
    Obama is inexperienced and is not qualified to be President.  That problem cannot be solved in a few months. Try again in 2012.

    Ignored majority? (5.00 / 9) (#135)
    by miriam on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:16:37 PM EST
    I'm not at all sure that Obama can retrieve the senior vote.  It's been overwhelmingly for Hillary and these people (myself included) do not trust Obama, or think he is in the least qualified to be president.  I know the under 60s don't like to hear this, but we over 60s have seen many, many campaigns that were "sure things"  (Dewey in 1948, anyone?) go down in flames and we now can spot a loser a mile away.  Why do you think so many seniors voted against Obama?  Racism?  No, not older Democrats.  Accumulated wisdom is the reason.

    And then there are the women like myself who are enraged, possibly permanently, about the unanswered mysogynism thrown at Clinton and, by extension, at all women.  We may not vote for McCain (I won't) but we are very likely to sit on our hands and refuse to vote for the presidential slot.  I think this foretells an utter disastor for Democrats in Nov.  Denial of this ugly potential is childish and delusionary.  Given the two candidates, this primary has been unlike any other and the general election will prove this point.  Young people and idealists may think the charming Mr. Obama can easily get seniors and older women back into the fold.  Sorry, we are immune to the charm tactic, having seen it all too often employed by the incapable the inexperienced, and the insincere.  

    I would like to see a poll of Clinton voters (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:51 PM EST
    to find out what percentage think Obama is simply unqualified to be President. I think THAT is the issue Obama needs to address, more than the class/race issues.
    If I thought Obama was a bang-up candidate, I'd vote for him in a second, even with all that's happened. I don't, and I won't.

    Parent
    I don't think it would mean that much while (none / 0) (#162)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:23:31 PM EST
    Hillary is still in the race. Sides are picked and lines are drawn right now.

    Parent
    Um, that's your opinion. I think the reason (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    people prefer Hillary to Obama is quite relevant. Its' the inexperience plus the trust factor.
    I don't like John Edwards, particularly, and I didn't find him a convincing speaker. However, as politician he gave me some reason to trust him because of the specific promises which were part of his campaign. He gave the voters something to hold him to. Obama? Pfft.... he goes out of his way to speak in the vaguest possible terms.
    I am told (by Lambert) that he doesn't even use the words Social Security in his speeches; instead, he refers to "retirement security". Ugh.
    Hillary is much more specific on a wide range of issues---including Iraq.

    Parent
    You know what? (5.00 / 4) (#197)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:32:20 PM EST
    Obama himself makes me want to throw up.  Seriously.  I don't mean this as a slam at his supporters, but I can just hear his fake-ass voice talking some flimflam about "retirement security" in that faux-booming voice he uses.

    I will sail through the air, scrabbling for the remote, whenever he comes on TV unexpectedly.  I'm that mad about the bill of goods he has sold this party and the country.  And I'm a 6th- or something generation Democrat who worked my ass off for both Gore and Kerry.  

    (sorry if I'm crossing the line here, delete if needed, jeralyn...just expressing my own personal sentiments about BO)

    Parent

    I'm a first generation Democrat, which (5.00 / 3) (#204)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:34:00 PM EST
    means I ought to be prime pickings for Obama. I suppose I'm part of the "creative class" too!

    Parent
    The real irony for me personally is (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:36:01 PM EST
    I have a bachelor's degree in fine arts.  And yet I have nothing but contempt for the "creative class" as we've seen it described the last few months.

    Parent
    Also ironically, many of the commenters (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM EST
    are much more educated and experienced than some of the top bloggers. Not me personally, because I don't have a background in history, economics or politics---but many here do.

    Parent
    Oh sweet relief! (5.00 / 1) (#246)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:54:56 PM EST
    Thank you Eleanor!  I feel the same way! I can't even stand to listen to him (I feel the same way about GWB) - I change the channel every time he comes on!

    Parent
    I never considered him (5.00 / 1) (#261)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:22:00 PM EST
    I work as an analyist.  The letter anal are in there for a reason.  I spent a couple of weeks on congress.org looking up voting records and didn't like what I saw.  No one wanted to discuss voting records and what it meant.  I disapproved of 6 to 8 of his votes, he has absolutely no experience that is relevant to me, thought he was weak in the debates, is unable to show a command of or committment to any policy and now don't care for his personality.

    For some reason, once he has the nom, I am supposed to vote for him.  Someone is very wrong.

    Parent

    Uhm, BTD... (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Iris on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:54 PM EST
    At this point I'm finding it difficult to be convinced myself...I already know that he wanted to vote for Roberts, so nothing short of telling me he would appoint Justices in the model of Ginsburg would do.  Pick your issue and it's the same problem.  Maybe I don't particularly want to help Obama come up with an issue he can fake us all out on, when Edwards and Hillary have already staked out impressive progressive territory on health care and economic justice.  If he isn't going to adopt them wholeheartedly, he shouldn't bother.  Doesn't he have issues that he is passionate about?  Other than the tone of Washington and being President, of course.  What he needs to do is have a sit-down with Edwards and Clinton and figure out how he got ass-backwards on "mandates."

    How Do You Solve a Problem Like Obama (5.00 / 6) (#154)
    by BDB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:21:17 PM EST
    How do you get the votes and pin them down?
    How do you find a word that means Obama?
    An elitist? A populist? A noun!

    Sorry only had a few seconds to come up with something.

    Excellent (5.00 / 3) (#169)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:25:46 PM EST
    Sound of Music reference.  A+ for you my friend.

    Now if you can figure out how to work in a goatherd and a girl in a pale pink coat.....

    Parent

    BTD (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by facta non verba on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:21:58 PM EST
    I'm sorry but you're gasping at straws. First of all it is unlikely that he can even do so. How does he go to universal health care after running away from it all this past year? He can't undo his vote for the Bush-Cheney Energy Bill. Nor the fact that he has lied about taking money from lobbyists and oil companies, that he has run misleading advertising, that he has ZERO legislativ accomplishments. I am not voting for Obama.

    The greater problem is values. Obama's values are of an effete liberal. Mine are that of a progressive working class liberal. It is not just economics but values. Obama doesn't share my values. I am atheist, he converts to Christianity at age 27 (no one does this), chooses a Church that preaches a controversial Gospel with minister with unorthodox beliefs that all of a sudden are news to him. He has a relationship with William Ayers, a terrorist? James Meeks, a homophobic racist? Where do you pull the plug? I could go on and on . . .

    umm... (none / 0) (#177)
    by mindfulmission on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:28:24 PM EST
    he converts to Christianity at age 27 (no one does this),
    What?

    Parent
    BTD you are thinking logically (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by karen for Clinton on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:22:58 PM EST
    Obama and Ax are not.  You'd think he'd be pandering to us on bended knee at least, but no.

    He has plans to not "waste time" in some of the upcoming primary states and is willing to "give" a few to her by not actively campaigning so much.

    It is just like his "no time" to debate excuse.

    No time for those states, no time to debate, no time to talk to the people I can't win.

    A hell of a job baracky.

    Donna doesn't need blue-collars and hispanics, why should he bother?  Is it pathological lies?  

    He will have "time" to work on a new rhetoric, um, historic speech to capture women and hispanics and lunch buckets. All will be okay!

    What is this about May 20th declaration of victory?

    Then he can't spend a week in Puerto Rico with Michelle and the kids!  

    Presumptive, arrogant, Bush-like vacation time from now till the end, his end not hers?

    What?

    I am so confused... I think all us dems are about now.  This has been one hell of a year.

    Obama is focusing (none / 0) (#170)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:25:50 PM EST
    on McCain now, looking at GE states. I think that is a great thing.

    Parent
    like I said, presumptive (none / 0) (#243)
    by karen for Clinton on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:54:05 PM EST
    and arrogant.

    He is scared to death of Hillary's core voters who will slaughter him in WV and KY.

    He plans to run and hide and you will praise him and be his apologist.  Never ceases to amaze me.

    from Hillbuzz:

    • In 1988, Jesse Jackson took his hopeless campaign against winner Michael Dukakis all the way to the convention, often to great media praise.

    • In 1980, Ted Kennedy carried his run against Jimmy Carter all the way to the convention, even though it was clear he had been routed.

    • In 1976, Ronald Reagan contested the "inevitability" of Gerald Ford all the way to the convention. Few, then or since, have ever thought to criticize Reagan's failure to step aside and let Ford assume the mantle.

    • Also in 1976, three candidates -- Mo Udall, Jerry Brown, and Frank Church -- ran against Jimmy Carter all the way through the final primaries, even though Carter seemed more than likely to be the eventual nominee.

    • Even in 1960, Lyndon Johnson and Adlai Stevenson fought the "certain" nomination of John F. Kennedy all the way to the convention floor.


    Parent
    Here Is My Dream Scenario...Hillary Wins The (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:22 PM EST
    presidency due to an unprecedented number of voters using their write-in option...whooooeeee

    Look, (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:31:14 PM EST
    Obama is clearly better than McCain on the issues, at least in my opinion. On Iraq? On economy? There's not even a question in my mind that Obama would be better.

    But he has not run on these issues. He's run on his judgment and character.

    And his personality is where McCain will clobber him like grizzled old hunter clobbering a baby seal.

    Here's what Obama should have done if he really wanted to win the GE and not just the primary:

    1. Wait until after HRC's second term to run for President. The Republicans would have been in permanent minority mode at that point and the country would be well on its way to ship-shapedness.
    2. Run on charisma, bumper stickers and party identity.

    He would have been a lock.

    He shows lack of judgement (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by rnibs on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:35:44 PM EST
    by not waiting till 2016.  He might have developed some compassion and understanding of the country's needs if he'd just spend that time in the Senate and actually do work like Hillary did.

    Parent
    I agree with the people (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by rnibs on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:32:45 PM EST
    who say the best solution is for Obama to drop out.

    He is not the (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:39:11 PM EST
    nominee yet...  

    I doubt he can say or do much convince people that have decided to never vote for him.  You see, he threw the baby out with the bathwater when his campaign took up the right wing talking points and exploited the negatives of the House of Clinton.  

    Then there is the double standard of "no more legacies"  while trying to appear like the next JFK...  That beloved family is still involved in politics.  I guess by those standards Bobby should never run for POTUS?

    There has just been too many questionable activities and immature behavior from Obama.  He is not POTUS material.  Kids might think it is cool to reference Jay-Z when talking about a rival, but that should be left for high school rivalries, not a world stage one.  

    He can say whatever he thinks will work.  He damaged his campaign all by himself.  The gems he has handed the GOP will astound us.  Why do you think so many of these instances have been under reported or not covered by the media at all??

    Things have not gone on unnoticed.  


    Exactly (5.00 / 2) (#232)
    by rnibs on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:45:26 PM EST
    He damaged his campaign all by himself.

    And, very importantly to me, I think he is a very bad example to hold up for the Dem. party?  Privatizing social security?  Wanting to vote for Roberts for SCOTUS?  Re-playing the Harry and Louise ads?  Not counting the vote?  This is a Democrat???  Doesn't sound like it.

    Parent

    Great Democrat we got here....!! (5.00 / 1) (#238)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:49:19 PM EST
    you got all the points.  

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#242)
    by nell on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:53:41 PM EST
    No. I will not vote for Obama. I will not reward him, I will not reward the media, and I will not reward the DNC. His arrogance is what will do him in, it has little to do with whether or not he is able to take on a populist message.

    I do not believe he is qualified. And while in past years, I would be compelled to vote for the no matter what, not this time. If he wins, it will largely be based on branding the Clintons as racist, as well as benefiting from the rampant Clinton hate and sexism in the mainstream media.  

    I am just sick to death of the way that his campaign pronounced him as something new and historic, along with the media, and Clinton as something old and done. Why is the first woman president any less historic than the first black man? Why do women matter less? This constant undervaluing of women and of the struggles we have overcome just infuriates me.

    Howard Dean last week was quick to tell FOX that their coverage of the Wright matter was racist, but where was Dean when women begged him to speak out against the sexism in the press? Where was he? The DNC told callers that he would be releasing a press statement, but that statement never came. Dean did not stand up for women when we begged him to, and now he wants me to stand by the DNC because I am afraid of Roe v. Wade?

    No, he will not earn my vote. I will not be called a racist for the next eight years for not supporting him and I will not be threatened with Roe v. Wade by the very people who refused to stand up for me, for Hillary, and for all women by speaking out against the sexism in the press.

    Forget it.

    Here it is in a nutshell. (5.00 / 1) (#251)
    by Mrwirez on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:57:08 PM EST
    As I have stated before on this site, I am an IBEW union electrician from Pittsburgh, and as a whole we are 80-85% Democrat as most union construction workers are. Most nonunion construction workers are NOT Democrat, because of Associated Builders and Contractors (the ABC), an anti-union entity that competes with the unions for large jobs, and are backed by the Republicans- (think union busters). As the Obama and Clinton campaigns rolled through here 2 weeks ago, 75% of the people I talked to were for Clinton. Now as the end for Hillary is near I can not find ONE person that will vote for Barack Obama in the general election. I have been asking about 150-200 guys this week who they would support in the GE if it is Obama vs. McCain. About 50% NOW say McCain and the rest said they would leave "president" blank and vote the remaining ticket Democrat or they will just not vote at all. The state of PA will be RED in November, even though our Union leaders will use our money and send us fliers telling us to vote for Obama, these guys will not do it. PA voted 51-49 for John Kerry, a white war hero with local ties to Heinz ketchup. PA will be a RED state with Obama.

    I personally do not like Obama, he is neither hope nor change, they have painted the Clintons as racists, he is inexperienced and is not qualified to be President. I also believe Michele Obama is VERY racist, anyone read her thesis? I will also leave "president" blank, but support the down ticket Dem candidates to help cancel out McCain.

    Obama is another McGovern, Dukakis, Kerry type LOSER candidate that the Democrats insist on running. The super delegates need to grow some testicles and put forth the STRONGEST Democratic candidate against John McCain....... That is Hillary Clinton. Obama winning all those western states and republican states is bull$hit He simply can not win. Does anyone really believe Virginia and Florida will be blue? Besides, I have also heard racist remarks at work such as , I will not put a"N-word" in the white house, as sad as it is, it's out there.

    Democrats...... Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it...... Or as As Yogi Berra used to say "it's deja vu all over again".


    McCain will fix problem easily (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:01:02 PM EST
    He will take a page from Arnold's playbook.  He will go more center to the distress of the right wing of the other great coalition, the Bush coalition.  Once he does that he has it in the bag.  If he starts playing up his middle of the road stuff, throws in a couple of populist bits, he has it.  Arnold will give him the playbook.  Obama will then be up a creek.  

    He shouldn't skip WV and Kentucky (5.00 / 1) (#257)
    by catfish on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:10:23 PM EST
    He needs to ask for their votes, whether he'll get them or not. He's reinforcing the idea that he doesn't care because he doesn't need them.

    We have (5.00 / 1) (#263)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:38:09 PM EST
    a saying down here in the south that you can't put lipstick on a pig.

    Patriotism? This is a huge problem and no speech is going to change it much like the speech about Rev. Wright didn't change anything. The problem here is his associations. He didn't clean up before running so there's really not a whole lot he can do.

    Populism? He tried that and it didn't work in OH. He looked even worse trying to do it than just going with his pro Nafta stance.

    As far as "toughness" goes, that's going to be difficult to because he's already pretty much campaigned as "weak and right" when it comes to fp. Maybe it would help if he even articulated a foreign policy. All I've seen is "I'll talk to dictators unconditionally and the I won't talk to them without conditions."

    The more I think about the more sunk we are with Obama as the nominee. There's no amount of new voters or AA's that are going to make up the vast amount of voters that won't vote for him.

    I think the idea of amending the agreements (none / 0) (#2)
    by ksh on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:35:14 PM EST
    is a good one, with human rights, labor, and wage issues and would like to see Obama talk more about it.

    I also think the small group, roll up his sleeves connection is good.

    I don't want him going cowboy and like the reasoned approach he brings to solving problems, but I agree he could get a little tougher in tone.  Say, WITHOUT asserting we'll obliterate another country.

    Seems an entirely wrong strategy (none / 0) (#4)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:36:29 PM EST
    I think Obama needs to latch onto some populist issues

    i think he should promote things he believes in.  I don't think he needs to make up policies he doesn't support.  

    Once it is him vs. McCain people will really be able to see the stark differences in policies; and policies those demographics will care about... health care, middle class tax cuts, Iraq, education,  etc.  He won't need to latch; he'll need to promote what he already is fighting for.  

    Escuse me while I laugh (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:42:23 PM EST
    The community organizer who does not care about affordable housing being destroyed by his supporter Rezko so that he can get the money?  No community organizer would ever stoop that low.  This man will say and do anything.  

    Parent
    I tend to agree (none / 0) (#76)
    by bjorn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:21 PM EST
    but I do think he will need to bone up on the economy and economic issues, he could crush McCain there as well as on the war.  Those will be the two issues.  And his health care plan is better than McCain's - because McCain doesn't have one.  He is going to win on the issues. It will be about whether McCain and the repubs can cast him as elitist and/or extreme, racist, etc.  I agree he should not embrace issues he has not already embraced.  As far as pandering, he has already done his share just on different things than Clinton.

    Parent
    Obama would never sully himself with (none / 0) (#5)
    by Joelarama on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:36:30 PM EST
    populist pandering.  We saw that on the gas tax.

    Hilarious (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:49:29 PM EST
    He has pandered to you and you swallowed whole. He does the ultimate pandering: his right hand says that he does not pander, and his left panders by drumming up populist appeal.

    No pol is above telling the public what it wants to hear, at least no successful pol. That is what they do.

    Parent

    If you have read any of my other comments, you (none / 0) (#35)
    by Joelarama on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:50:25 PM EST
    would know I was being sarcastic.

    Parent
    heh (1.00 / 2) (#43)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:52:29 PM EST
    its always funny when 1 HRC supporter attacks another HRC supporter because they think they are talking to a Obama supporter and they can't help but insult them

    Parent
    I Am Neutral (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    At this point. Both Obama and Hillary seem equal to me, even though I did vote for Hillary, I never joined the fanclub.

    Parent
    oh (none / 0) (#74)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:18 PM EST
    then please accept my apology for calling you a HRC supporter.

    Parent
    No Apology Necessary (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:03:35 PM EST
    I am a Hillary supporter, I just happen to also support Obama or whoever gets the nomination, as I do not see any real difference between the two. But I am not a fanclub member of either one, that is for sure.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:52:48 PM EST
    I have read your comments but missed the sarcasm. Obviously, I need to get my sarcasm detector fixed.

    Parent
    Uh, he's being sarcastic (none / 0) (#36)
    by andgarden on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    And, on NAFTA (none / 0) (#213)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:37:48 PM EST
    with the Canadians. And, on Rev Wright, crazy uncle, speech.

    Parent
    The magic bullet, though, is Obama winning (none / 0) (#6)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:36:30 PM EST
    over red states west of the Mississippi and my (limited knowledge) opinion is that these states are not as hard hit economically by free trade and, in fact, overall are benefittng from free trade -- especially the ag sector.

    Agree and disagree (none / 0) (#21)
    by Faust on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:45:22 PM EST
    I disagree on the free trade. He's unconvincing and will continue to be unconvincing imo. I just don't think he's actually anti free trade. Neither of them are.

    The second two suggestions I agree 100%. Frankly I think the third one is enough. If he can REALLY nail the patriotism one that alone would be enough. That's hard though. Republicans managed to make John Kerry look unpatriotic/weak. I think they can make anyone look unpatriotic/weak because the media give them that frame and it's assorted memes hook line and sinker.

    Frankly the problem can partially be dealt with by turnout. I think this is just as important or more important than "the problem" and it comes off the division in the party. Too early to call how that will pan out.

    Patriotism=Wes Clark. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:52:12 PM EST
    I know BTD wants a unity ticket but I call that a blame Hillary ticket for when he loses. I think Clark could help him with those who doubt his patriotism.

    Parent
    I like the Clark option (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Faust on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:00:28 PM EST
    I do.

    Parent
    Wes Clark (none / 0) (#84)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:02:47 PM EST
    is a LONG-TIME friend and supporter of the Clintons. I don't see him wanting to join a sinking ship.

    Parent
    He might do it if Hillary asks him to. She may (none / 0) (#119)
    by Teresa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:12:23 PM EST
    not want it, if offered, but her buddy Wes would be a good compromise. If Obama wins, she has a friend in the WH and if he loses, Clark won't run against her in 2012 if she decides to put herself through this hell again.

    Parent
    More patriotism (none / 0) (#26)
    by cannondaddy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:47:32 PM EST
    It's the main appeal of the 2004 convention speech that got him where he is today.  By the way, his acceptance speech in Denver will fall on the 45th anniversary of MLK's I have a dream speech.

    thats a trap (none / 0) (#173)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:26:45 PM EST
    that kerry fell into.

    kerry was a war protestor.

    Obama's rep is based on being anti war.

    Instead Obama should focus on something epic.

    Parent

    Maybe he'll plagiarize it (none / 0) (#256)
    by RalphB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:06:24 PM EST
    that's something we could get behind.


    Parent
    Does he have credibility on trade? (none / 0) (#38)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:51:24 PM EST
    After NAFTA-gate that is?

    wesley clark (none / 0) (#47)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 03:53:04 PM EST
    as VP goes along way to solving the toughness and blue collar issues , both of which I think are overblown. The guy was a organizer in Chicago, wallflowers don't do that kind of job in that city.

    Defeating the famed Clinton political machine, will notch up his toughness as well. Hillary is a top ranked political heavy weight, with Bill the ex-champion in her corner.

    Big issues, NAFTA down south sounds good, but ending the Iraq war everywhere else. Tie Iraq to our recession and gas problems, make it a two-for-one.

    Wesley Clark has been so loyal to Clinton... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:06:00 PM EST
    ...I would hate to see him jump on the Obama bandwagon without the Obama camp ratcheting back some of the Clinton hate they have exploited. But that's just me.

    Parent
    I would try to build (none / 0) (#133)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:15:22 PM EST
    a party from all corners.

    Edwards for AG as well. Corporations will be crapping bricks.

    Parent

    VP choice in genral will be a huge deal (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:13:44 PM EST
    for both Obama and McCain.

    I think it is one of the rare cases where it could make a real difference because of experince differential on the one side and the energy differential on the other.

    Parent

    My two cents (none / 0) (#108)
    by CST on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:22 PM EST
    Sit back, relax, and watch McCain lose this thing.

    1 - The fact that he voted against torture

    2 - He voted for Telecom Immunity

    3 - He came out against a bill that would allow Women the right to sue for discrimination because what we really need is more "training".

    4 - He has voted with Republicans 89% of the time.

    5 - He has spent the least amount of time voting in the senate of any of the three candidates running despite the fact that he won his race ages ago.

    6 - He wants to kick Russia out of the G-8, and can't tell Sunni's from Shia's without help from Lieberman

    7 - I don't know if this is true, but I have now read in several posts that he called his wife the "c-word" - Does anyone know if this is true???

    That's all fine and good, but... (none / 0) (#124)
    by thomphool on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:13:20 PM EST
    If voters don't trust Obama on the economy and they do trust McCain, it's ball game over.

    At this point, I honestly don't know how that will shape up, and am by no means implying that voters will/do trust McCain on the economy, but one of them will win that trust, and they're likely going to be the next President.  Unless we have some sort of miraculous Q2 recovery, the economy is going to be front and center in November, and it's something Obama has to resonate on.  

    Parent

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#137)
    by CST on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:18:03 PM EST
    I think McCain "I don't know much about economics" will not inspire much confidence.  Not that Obama will either, but at least his stated positions are better than McCain's.  I don't know that Obama can "win" this thing, I have a bit more faith that McCain can lose it though.

    Parent
    tax cuts for the rich (none / 0) (#151)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:22 PM EST
    won't play well either. No one is interested in trickle down voodoo economics any more.

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#129)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:14:31 PM EST
    Voted against torture?  Sounds good to me.
    Least amount of time in Senate?
    Not something you want to bring up against Obama.
    Other stuff?
    You can probably use that. ;)

    Parent
    Oops (none / 0) (#149)
    by CST on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    I meant voted against a ban on torture...

    Parent
    the c*nt statement seems true (none / 0) (#139)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:19:25 PM EST
    Cliff Schecter's controversial recent book, The Real McCain, alleges that during a 1992 campaign stop, McCain angrily called his wife a "trollop" and a "c*nt" in front of aides and reporters.

    When asked about the incident at a recent town hall meeting McCain refused to answer.


    Parent

    Media Matters and Other organizations (none / 0) (#158)
    by Florida Resident on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:22:36 PM EST
    have been exposing the MSM love and cuddling of McCain for years.  Guess what, they have been preaching to the choir only people like us read them most voters don't even read beyond the headlines and their version of reality in politics and world affairs is based on 30 seconds and 2 minutes spiels in CNN FOX etc. and maybe a special every now and then.   Mr McCain has been voting more or less straight Republican line most of his career yet if you ask anyone in the street they will tell you he is a independent maverick and a moderate.  If you ever check his voting record on abortion issues you will see he is as pro-life as they come but if you listen to the media you will swear his pro-choice.

    Parent
    Well, I guess I'll just do what I can (none / 0) (#199)
    by CST on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:33:00 PM EST
    And start with Talk Left...

    And hope that since he is now in a general election for president for the first time some of this will be brought to light...

    That might be just be the hope talking though...

    Parent

    Here's some (none / 0) (#228)
    by kmblue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:44:06 PM EST
    hope for you CST--
    I was aware of your typo on torture,
    just trying to help.
    And I know McCain is a big fat idiot.  
    Kisses, kmblue.  ;)

    Parent
    You are dealing with cultural attitudes here (none / 0) (#110)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:08:31 PM EST
    They won't just go away because of some pandering and speeches. In many places, elections still break along racial lines

    As I pop back and forth from (none / 0) (#185)
    by someTV on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:29:25 PM EST
    orange to blue, without trusted user status there, and not witness to the trolls as they seem to be kept tightly under their bridge here, the language seems to be incredibly blunt.  Not that I am unaware of the pugilistic tendencies of politics, as I have witnessed them in a local manner in my family, still I find that I am not capable of discerning kernels of policy from kernels of hyperbole.  I don't know if BHO was the recipient of theft in Indiana, or is incapable of coming down from his perch above it all making him un-electable, or if HRC has thrown more than the kitchen sink into the campaign and is destroying the democratic party in her pursuits, and I have no clue how the race is being perceived outside of the contretemps that seems to be erupting about the blogosphere like Chaiten.

    Having said this, I have not yet contributed to "Solve The Problem", and I guess it is because I feel the clouds of dust bursting around us have obscured the issues for me.  I think HRC should stay in the race until she decides it's over, and if BHO is the front runner, he should wait for this time as well.  With FL/MI I can not even begin to fathom the idea of disenfranchisement as I have not completely understood the process that left these states in the situation they now find themselves.  I wish the rules that have set up this situation were readily available (maybe somebody will point me toward a publication of them).

    When Bill was running in his first primary I did not support him, but when he was nominated, my support was complete.  If HRC is nominated, I will give here as much support as I will give if BHO is nominated, who at the moment I do support.

    In the end, the solution to the problem (speaking for me only) is to except the nomination, whenever it is over, warts and all, and work as hard as possible to get a democrat seated in the white house.

    debating skills (none / 0) (#192)
    by aquarian on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    My concerns about Obama electability are about his inability to debate with substance.  He really needs to polish up -- focus on concise speaking points.  However, his problems run a little deeper, IMHO, since although he is capable of learning speaking points, I don't think he has studied the issues deeply enough to answer followup questions.
    Hillary ran rings around him in recent debates.  Her tv interviews have been killer performances.  She thrives on debate.
    Haven't really studied McCain yet to see how good his speaking skills are -- if past is prologue, however, republicans tend to debate effectively.

    Even When The Republicans Have Not Been Able (none / 0) (#260)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:14:18 PM EST
    to debate effectively, the media has been able to convince the public that they won the debate (i.e. Gore's sighs etc).

    Parent
    My problem with these things is that (none / 0) (#207)
    by 1jpb on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:34:59 PM EST
    he needs to avoid anything that is obviously phony.  And, as BTD noted, the trade thing isn't so black and white, i.e. there are some real advantages to more opening of trade.  As long as BO keeps focused on environmental and worker issues related to trade, he's ok.  But, if he turns into a total no trade nut, without acceptance of the fact that trade can be made to work better for us, that would be bad.

    And, I don't see the toughness problem.  Some HRC folks like to (rightly) talk about BO being tough in some of his previous elections.  And, (here's a secret) he's being tougher than most realize in this election.  And, he has been tough as he's been successful in government in IL (even before the last two years when Ds had control) and DC (lead D: online gov. spending accountability and expanded international arms control, one of two lead Ds: biggest ethics reform in 25 years.)  

    The key to BO's success is that people don't perceive him as tough, because he can use "soft power" and persuasion.  That's a strength, not a weakness.  I'm always trying to remind the HRC folks that in government (and business) the toughest and long-term successful people don't jump up and down talking about how they're a tough fighter, they don't need to spend so much energy trying to convince people of characteristics that are obvious because of their successful record.

    Pray tell (none / 0) (#221)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:41:18 PM EST
    why did he not use that "soft power" to keep Wright from going ballistic on him?  Not very persuasive was he with a life time ally.

    Parent
    I like you. (none / 0) (#255)
    by 1jpb on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:06:12 PM EST
    You do have a point.  And I appreciate the style of your comment.

    But, Wright in the South Chicago context, without isolating small clips (when BO wasn't in attendance) from decades of sermons, isn't really that big of a deal.  To be sure, Wright seems to be a pastor with an ego, and he has a handful (as opposed to the body of his work which greatly helps his community) of nutty ideas that don't even make sense in context, but he isn't some spiritual adviser who has shaped BO's POV.  (Ironically, even the text of Wright's "audacity" sermon has different themes and views than BO's book which used that sermon's title.)

    In other words, BO's pastor is a political story used by wingnuts to scare folks.  And, the Wright issue was exasperated by HRC's desperation combined with her willingness to use political fratricide as a repeated tactic (this is only bested in popularity by her "say anything" strategy), but it doesn't have anything to do with BO's beliefs or his leadership strategy.

    Parent

    he's shown (none / 0) (#240)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:51:37 PM EST
    he doesn't like to be aggresively cross examined.

    Hillary shrugged it off.

    Obama is weak weak weak in hostile debates.

    Parent

    Genearlly, that's true, (none / 0) (#220)
    by rnibs on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:40:33 PM EST
    but Obama has done nothing but build up that which divides us so much that it is now insurmountable.  I didn't think any Democrat could ever do it, but he did.  He's kicked so many people that they won't be coming back.  What a great guy.

    Comments closed and notice to new posters (none / 0) (#248)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:55:12 PM EST
    We are getting a lot of new users here who do not understand the site rules.

    You may not chatter. Read the comment rules.

    All new users are from now on limited to 10 comments in a 24 hour period. For 30 days.

    We close comments at around 200 because that's all our servers can take. Too many comments by the same person, particularly if they are just here to snipe, reduces the ability of all to have a say.

    Commenting here is a privilege, not a right.

    disagree, needs to go back to being apolitical (none / 0) (#264)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:39:00 PM EST
    I think that was his big thing. I'm not sure he can get back to that now, but the feel of not being a politician worked for him. So going for a populist issue would go against that.

    Democrats who declaim rather than communicate lose (none / 0) (#265)
    by esmense on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:11:52 PM EST
    elections... Gore, Kerry and Obama, although different in style and eloquence,  all share this quality -- a proclamations from on high, the great man here to save you speaking style. Obama's sentences are crisper, easier to follow, more soaring than Kerry's, livelier and more transcendent than Gore's, but the basic problem is the same. He talks at people, not to them, seeks their understanding and recognition of HIM rather than conveys his understanding of, and respect for, them.

    This is a style that appeals to a big chunk of Democrats in the primaries it seems -- I think they see it as authoritative? -- but it never goes well with the broader electorate against a more plain spoken opponent.