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VoteBoth

I support this idea:

On Tuesday a bunch of Hillaryites launched "Voteboth.com" to push the idea of a "Dream Ticket" of both Clinton and Obama … again. "We figure why have a nominee who has won 51.1 percent of the vote when you can have a ticket of both of them who have won 100 percent of the Democratic vote?" Voteboth.com spokesman Sam Arora said.

Until recently, Arora was Clinton's press spokesman, but now he's okay with Obama in the No. 1 spot."If Sen. Obama becomes the nominee we're going to make the case that hope and experience can co-exist and make the ticket much stronger," Arora said. Pundits say that a "Dream Ticket" could deal with one problem – the possibility that Hillary supporters could vote for Republican John McCain come November.

Here is the VoteBoth web site. As is often the case, I am speaking for me only.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I agree that however distasteful it (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:56:49 AM EST
    seems to Hillary supporters, an Obama/Clinton ticket is necessary now.
    I don't see any sign that Obama's camp understands the magnitude of his problem, though; in fact, I don't expect him to even ask Hillary to campaign for him in the fall.

    That ticket (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:20:22 AM EST
    will still not win the GE. I don't see any reason to support it.

    Sorry. :-(

    Parent

    Furthermore (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:07 AM EST
    It would tie Hillary to the 10,000 bad decisions Obama will make - in the first two weeks he's the official head of the ticket and ruin her career.  No thanks.  I vote she keeps her Senate seat and runs in 2012.

    I think Obama ought to be allowed to crash and burn under his own weight, after what he's done to this Party.  I for one feel no obligation to bail out a Democratic infrastructure that's shown in so many ways it doesn't car jack what I think.  And they are going to lose A LOT of others in states like Ohio, Missouri, Tennessee, Arkansas...

    Parent

    Agree. (none / 0) (#189)
    by 0 politico on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:40:41 PM EST
    It would not seem (to me) to be in her best interests to be tied in anyway to his administration - should he somehow win.

    If she stays in the Senate for another term, that's up to her.  But, we have found that there is no way the MSM is going to allow a strong woman to get the nomination if they can stop it.  Also, the current party leadership is not worth supporting.  She may be more effective as a retired Senator in advancing the needs of working and under priveledged folks everywhere, than as part of this party that seems to think those folks don't matter.

    Parent

    A nightmare of HUGE Proportions (none / 0) (#232)
    by dmpflorida on Tue May 13, 2008 at 12:10:28 PM EST
    I hope and pray Obama doesn't pick her for a running mate.  First of all it would be a direct contradiction to his Change campaign and furthermore, although politics does make strange bedfellows he would not only have to deal with her breathing down his neck but he would have the other half of the BILLARY reign of terror peeking over his shoulder.  

    I support Senator Obama but WOULD NEVER support that.  Her actions over the past few months is huge indication that you can't trust them.  It just goes to show you the total flip/flop of the Clintons.

    This will be a TOTAL disaster!!!!!!!!!

    Parent

    ... I know it would make me more likely to (none / 0) (#3)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:57:37 AM EST
    vote for Obama.

    Parent
    me too (none / 0) (#32)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:16:55 AM EST
    if she had some power

    Parent
    Rather (none / 0) (#115)
    by flashman on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:49:11 AM EST
    see Hillary as Sec. Of State.  VP is beneath her.

    Parent
    Too Early (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Athena on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:56:56 AM EST
    I'm not conceding anything yet, let alone the top spot.  The convention is in August.

    Amen, sister! I think the SDs SHOULD (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:40:03 AM EST
    be able to weigh in.  Hell, a lot of them are governors and members of Congress from purple states, who are also going to have to run in November with the top of the ticket.  I know A LOT of them won't want to run with Obama, for the zillion reasons we've discussed here.  They'll all actively distance themselves from the Party, including helping it fundraise.

    Here's hoping Saint Obama can not only raise enough money for himself, but for 2/3 for the Congressional and other downballot races, since he's not going to be getting much help.

    Parent

    Or force him to adopt Hillary's energy plan (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:58:50 AM EST
    Would anyone who wants to preserve Clinton's cleaner longterm energy planning from destruction under the magic "lets not look closely" contingent of our former party now laying waste our future - please call Rep Jerry McNerney today.

    Please call SF Bay Area Superdelegate Jerry McNerney this moning!!!

    Last night he was being accosted by the thug army of kossarians unleashed by some diaryist there who is, like all of them over there, clueless about what his energy policy really is - they just read the pretty headlines, not the fine print.

    Here's the phone number:
    925-833-0643

    Ask why should a wind advocate like Jerry settle for someone who only offers a mere 5 year extension of the PTC? Hillary makes the Production Tax Credit permanent.

    This is so crucial to enabling windfarms to start up in this country, so its crucial to solving the energy crisis (you can then develop a clean electric car industry to run on the windpower) and great climate change policy.

    I believe McNerney is torn. He would obviously prefer Hillary on clean energy (he's obviously read both the plans!) but the kossarians will be really hammering on him. Don't let those ignorant mobs decide your future!

    Here's the phone number:
    925-833-0643

    Nope. (5.00 / 8) (#5)
    by rooge04 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:59:09 AM EST
    I do NOT want the more qualified woman playing second banana to the frat boy. No thanks.

    Me neither (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:17:37 AM EST
    Why would I support a ticket where the most qualified "woman" is once again relegated to a secondary role? Gotta get the female person that all important one step behind. Bull!

    Parent
    She would have more power (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by LibOne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:54 AM EST
    in the Senate.  Not only that she could use her position to keep Obama in line because, afterall, she has at least 50% of the Democratic Party behind her.

    Parent
    Only if... (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Cal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    ...it is Clinton/Obama.  Otherwise, no way.

    Sorry BTD, I can't (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:01:07 AM EST
    I don't think Obama is qualified to be president.

    I will not vote for him if he is the nominee regardless of whether Hillary is in the VP spot.

    By the by, I will strongly urge her not to accept the VP if offered.

    What would happen if (none / 0) (#147)
    by soccermom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:06:30 PM EST
    she is the vp and some nut job does the unthinkable and she becomes the president?  Conspiracy theories will abound and her reputation would be forever tarnished (ala Johnson).

    No, I think the vp slot is not good for so many reasons.

    Better to stay in the Senate and wait for 2012.

    Parent

    Nope! (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:01:37 AM EST
    Hillary is far too mature to be cleaning up after a kiddie.

    NO no no no (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by Katherine Graham Cracker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:02:00 AM EST
    Clinton should not accept the vp spot.
    She is better off in the Senate and not being made the scape goat of the Obama either loss or failed administration

    Bad Idea (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by koshembos on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:03:54 AM EST
    Hillary as VP cannot mitigate the horror called Obama.

    if Hillary can pick domestic policy advisors then (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    I would be fine with her as vp.

    Obama can run foreign policy and catapault the proganda but she must have control of

    1. not privatising social security,
    2. funding of social programs,
    3. picking his advisors for deciding health care policy
    4. picking his advisors for devising and funding the clean energy policy. Obama puts way too much emphasis on ethanol which cannot be more than ONE of the 12 Socolow/Pacala wedges.


    Yesterday I read (Nagourney, NYT?) (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:15:05 AM EST
    some new-Dem.-coalition type saying when Obama is in the White House, up to half of his appointees will be new to Washington.  Goodbye Clintons.

    Parent
    Considering his circle (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:30:06 AM EST
    of friends, I think we deserve the chance to ask more questions of Obama on just who those people would be.


    Parent
    Oh please. You know Ayers is now (none / 0) (#219)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:09:38 PM EST
    a professor and non-profit board member. Rezko may be in prison.  Samantha Power will be back though for sure.

    Parent
    I don't like it (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:06:07 AM EST
    Pressuring Obama into picking her for VP isn't the right thing to do just as pressuring Hillary to get out of the race wasn't the right thing to do.  It would be better if there were Obama supporters associated with this effort.  Obama needs to lead on this.

    While Obama/Clinton would be an effective election ticket, it would not be an effective governing ticket.  Hillary's talents would be wasted as a non influential VP in an Obama administration.

    I would just as soon have Obama adopt Hillary's Helath Care Plan.

    I'm not too thrilled about this idea (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Radiowalla on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:06:16 AM EST
    Hillary is so much more qualified than Obama....but, then again,  anyone he picks for VP is going to be more qualified than he is.

    The people who aren't going to vote for Obama will not be swayed by the VP choice, whoever that may be.

    If I were Clinton, I'd refuse.

    ps  I am fully planning to vote for Obama if I have to.  I don't think he's ready to be president, but avoiding a McCain presidency should be every Democrat's patriotic duty.

    Who gave you the (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:23:54 AM EST
    right to decide what every Democrat's patriotic duty is? I find it very unpatriotic to vote for   Obama. He's unqualified and I believe will be an unqualified disaster as president. That will hurt the Democratic brand for a generation to come.

    Even McCain can't do too much damage if corralled by a strong veto proof House and Senate. Of course that's supposing a Democratic House and Senate with guts which is problematical.

    Parent

    Our patriotic duty... (none / 0) (#108)
    by NotThatStupid on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:47:08 AM EST
    ... is to vote for the person who is best for the country, not "my party, right or wrong."

    Senator Obama fails that test.

    Parent

    Wow ... (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by v2r1 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:48:55 PM EST
    So in your frustration you'll vote for the candidate  who

    1. Wants to stay in Iraq
    2. Will likely overturn Roe over Wade
    3. Stack the supremes  
    4. Doesn't support universal health care
    5. Doesn't have a clue on economics

    What is this "best for the country" ?

    You have two liberal democrats with similar policies and you want to vote for the republican ?

    If you support hillary .. it is because of her policies correct?  

    I hope it is the hard fought race which prompted this bitterness and on reflection you'll reconsider.

    Parent

    Never (none / 0) (#211)
    by soccermom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:19:55 PM EST
    confuse "bitterness" with justified anger.

    Parent
    Perhaps ... (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by v2r1 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:26:00 PM EST
    perhaps .. justified anger.

    But if the end result is a vote for McCain its indistinguishable from bitterness?

    Democracy succeeds from reason not emotion.

    Parent

    I just don't see Hillary wanting to... (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by cosbo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:07:27 AM EST
    defend Wright, Ayers, Bitter, etc on behalf of Obama. I really don't see her accepting the VP spot.

    Especially (none / 0) (#83)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:39:17 AM EST
    since she was participating in perpetuating those attacks on Obama. I've been a solid Hillary supporter, but i liked her alot better without the attacks. I know both sides have thrown mud, but I don't think it helped her at all.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 9) (#19)
    by just victory on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:08:13 AM EST
    Obama is going to experience a McGovern-size loss in November. I do not want Hillary Clinton anywhere near that impending train wreck.

    If TalkLeft is representative of Clinton supporter (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:09:27 AM EST
    so much for your hopes for party unity.

    Fortunately, the readership here is probably not a representative sample of the Clinton-supporting population.

    Obama needs to pick a running mate with a keen eye cast on the electoral map. I think he needs somebody who'll help him take Ohio. If the best person for that is Hillary, I'm all for it.

    I am as representative as it gets (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:47 AM EST
    I comment here once in a while and started this season with positive feelings towards Obama.

    Obama's online supporters, AA supporters, and media supporters have fixed all of that in a hurry.

    I hope Obama supporters will wake-up and realize that your lack of respect for Hillary's historic candidacy and your tactics have irreparably alienated people like me.

    Obama supporters continue to talk about Hillary in demeaning ways. We cannot tolerate that and we will not be on the same side with those who have consistently done that during this primary campaign.

    Parent

    I canvassed with several women last weekend (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:19:28 PM EST
    in Indiana that were all locals and solid middle class and ranging from about 35 - 70.  And every single one of them, without exception, said they would never vote for Obama.  They were either going to sit it out or vote McCain.  One woman was so upset she actually teared up over how despicably HRC and her husband had been treated by Obama and the media.  She was in shock over how much men who are Democrats still hate women.

    P.S.  Most of the people (men and women) I canvassed in Southern Indiana that chatted with me about Clinton remarked that it was Clinton or McCain for them.  Obama was not an option. I wasn't canvassing Republicans either.    

    And while I can't know for absolute sure, I'm going to make a very educated guess that not a single one of the people I worked with or canvassed had ever been to a blog. Just an anecdotal snapshot to give you a sense of what Obama is up against.  He and his supporters had better wake the frak up and start making nice or his failure will be epic.

    Parent

    Emotions run high (4.25 / 4) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:11:18 AM EST
    But IF some efforts are made to reach out to Clinton supporters, I assure you there would be strong support, even from the group that comments here.

    Parent
    Not by (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Liberty4 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:37:49 PM EST
    this supporter. The damage is irreparable IMO. Sorry BTD. I think the idea of unity and bringing the party together was finished when McGovern called Clinton and Feinstein said she had to have a talk with her friend Hillary. So much of the Dem leadership has slapped her in the face and stabbed her in the back... for what? Pushing through the coronation of a guy who has just 2 yrs experience in the Senate because that's who the DEM Party wants while doing nothing to assist a candidate who has done everything for the Party... Barack Obama will not get my vote. Let him crash and burn with the Brazile/Dean/Pelosi/Kennedy/Kerry/Daschle/Bradley contingent.

    Parent
    The fighting between the two (none / 0) (#39)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:19 AM EST
    would be like no previous pair in the Whitehouse. He won't want her to get any credit for her contributions, and she won't sit in the background waiting to be invited to share her opinion.

    I think he would destroy her chances to take the top spot in 2016. He doesn't care what he does to people to get what he wants for himself.


    Parent

    Those efforts have been going on for some time now (none / 0) (#51)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:31 AM EST
    but the problem is that the efforts directed toward trying to unify the party behind Obama and being conciliatory toward the feelings of Clinton supporters will continue to backfure so long as Clinton supporters believe she still has a chance at the nomination.

    A certain percentage of Clinton suppoters (and I include Jeralyn in this group) will not accept a Clinton defeat until Clinton herself has conceded. You are realistic enough to embrace the impossible odds Clinton now faces. But you are practically alone in this at TalkLeft.

    I think that Clinton's time for maximal negotiating leverage has come and gone. At this point, after every remaining contest, the noose around her neck will simply get tighter and tighter, and even her most wildly hopeful and optimistic followers will see the reality of numbers bearing down on her.

    Clinton supporters can probably thank Mark Penn, more than any other single person, for the outcome their candidate now faces.

    If the VP slot was offered to Hillary, she ought to decide where she will be best positioned to be an agent of her policies -- the executive branch or the senate.

    Parent

    I guess I missed those efforts (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:55 AM EST
    Maybe you can point them out to me.

    Parent
    Obama's campaign (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:45:29 AM EST
    and the leadership of the democratic party have been bending over backwards for weeks in offering Hillary opportunities for a graceful exit from the contest. So far she has spurned all their invitations. Now even Diane Feinstein is putting pressure on Hillary, in public.

    The olive branch Obama's campaign and the democratic leadership offer Clinton supporters is spurned by their candidate, so there's no reason for the supporters to accept it either.

    Parent

    Invitations to quit. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:08:21 PM EST
    Olive branches.  LOL! This is satire, right?  I'm recommending your comment because it's so humorous.

    Love the creative permutations of WWTSBQ.  I guess that's why they call you all the "creative class".

    Parent

    Thank you for proving my point (none / 0) (#171)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:22:47 PM EST
    to BTD.

    Parent
    So your idea of an "olive brach" (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Radix on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:14:52 PM EST
    is holding the door for her on the way out? You do of course understand that Obama only leads in the popular vote total by 2.5%, right? Seems to me Hilary has an awful lot of support in the nation.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Parent

    I wish I would have read your (none / 0) (#129)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:55:50 AM EST
    comments first.  I would never have bothered to sign the petition nor write to the CA superdeez.

    There goes at least 20 pts off the possibility I would ever vote for Obama in any way.

    Parent

    So you're going to let (none / 0) (#145)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:05:49 PM EST
    some anonymous commenter on a small time blog anger you enough to change your vote for president of the United States? Is that really what you're saying here? How stupid is that, really?

    Parent
    No, I think Obama himself as (none / 0) (#172)
    by Radix on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:24:55 PM EST
    provided all the fuel necessary for the anger.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Parent

    So what is it then? (none / 0) (#177)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:30:20 PM EST
    I had an effect on you, or I didn't? Make up your mind please.

    Parent
    Again, I judge Obama by Obama's words (none / 0) (#185)
    by Radix on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    and actions. I don't recall ever saying anything about you one way or another, if you could provide the quotes, link, I'll be more than happy to respond to that.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Parent

    Get a clue (none / 0) (#180)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:32:49 PM EST
    I am one of those voters that might consider voting for your candidate who I find completely unqualified and personally distasteful.  Suck it up and keep your mouth shut.  I looks like I was the only one here even considering voting for the (better left unsaid).  It is not very bright to come in to this item and start attacking people who might consider voting for your candidate.  The smart think would have been to get in to a conversation with those who might be possibles instead of complainging as usual to those who would never support your candidate.

    Now the possibility I would vote for Obama has dropped another 5 pts.  Keep it up and you get McCain.  Good job.

    Parent

    I don't care who you, personally, vote for (none / 0) (#190)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:40:53 PM EST
    Be as petulant as you want. There are certain votes every candidate must write off each election. For Obama, evidently, the TalkLeft vote is one of them. Not that it will matter much in the grand scheme of things.

    As long as you can live with yourself at the end of the day, and you're happy with the ensuing McCain presidency, more power to you. It's America.You don't have to have a reason to vote for anybody. You just need picture ID.

    Parent

    Hmm (none / 0) (#137)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:00:50 PM EST
    I think you must be kidding me.

    Parent
    Nope. Not at all (none / 0) (#140)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:03:45 PM EST
    Please (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by wasabi on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:39 AM EST
    Please skip the "noose around her neck" references.

    Parent
    More of the same (none / 0) (#102)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:44:17 AM EST
    Wrong answer, pal.  If you think the Michigan/Florida issue is going to go away, guess again.  And if you think the people hopping, spitting mad about it are confined to this blog, I have a bridge to sell in just your color.

    Parent
    I've stopped caring about irrational emotion (none / 0) (#131)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:57:59 AM EST
    at least when I'm convinced it shows no sign of abating. Those votes just have to be written off. If you're happy about letting your anger contribute to a resulting McCain presidency. I have nothing more to say to you except that I pity you.

    Parent
    You will be the one (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:06:52 PM EST
    to blame for a McCain win.  Obama supporters were told repeatedly that Clinton supporters were not going to vote for Obama, but you had to have your shiny new toy.  Get over it.  You will get the end result you created.  You wanted to back the unelectable one, that means you lose.  Deal with it.

    Parent
    He's unelectable because Clinton supporters (none / 0) (#210)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:19:45 PM EST
    won't vote for him? Is that what you're saying?

    I could stamp my little piggy feet on the ground and say that Clinton is unelectable because Obama supporters won't vote for her.

    Instead I'll gently set down my size 11s and say that I'll be happy to vote for whoever is the eventual democratic nominee.

    Why don't you join me?

    Parent

    Oh, come on (none / 0) (#213)
    by otherlisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:26:54 PM EST
    I've been following your comments on this blog for a while. NOW you wanna make nice?

    Forget it.

    And while YOU personally won't be the deciding factor in my vote or non-vote for Obama, I will say that you do a great job of encapsulating the Obama attitude that seems to come from the candidate down.

    Parent

    Seems to? (none / 0) (#217)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:01:24 PM EST
    Let's see your evidence.

    Parent
    Sorry, no time right now (none / 0) (#218)
    by otherlisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:03:00 PM EST
    I'm just gonna brush you off of my shoulder, m'kay?

    But seriously, you're likable enough.

    Parent

    Well, I am wicked smart (none / 0) (#220)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:26:05 PM EST
    and very handsome too. Plus really strong. What else could you possibly want?

    Parent
    how about (none / 0) (#225)
    by otherlisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:26:57 PM EST
    some simple respect?

    Parent
    On that one (none / 0) (#226)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:53:01 PM EST
    you get what you give.

    Parent
    I just offered to (none / 0) (#221)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:47:10 PM EST
    consider Obama and you shat all over that idea.  

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#126)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:54:01 AM EST
    I admire your Big Tentedness, it shows a big heart and keen foresight.

    I will keep my mouth shut for now and hope that the hard core will come to their senses.

    Great move by Arora.

    Parent

    I didn't mean to rate you at all. (none / 0) (#77)
    by MMW on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:35:21 AM EST
    But I don't want to down rate you, so I'll just say - that this may be emotion on my part and that's okay with me.

    But I'm pretty darn positive that I am not voting for him, whether she is VP or not. I don't want to see a better qualified, smarter, harder working woman behind an unqualified man, particularly due to underhanded, lying tactics.

    Is it only emotion talking - who cares?

    There are individuals I've known with whom I've fallen out and do not speak to for years - I can't even say I dislike them anymore. I just feel nothing and contribute nothing bad or good to conversations about them. It's a failing in me - but luckily I don't believe I must be perfect.

    Parent

    If it's only emotion (none / 0) (#118)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:35 AM EST
    you should care. Do you really want to allow your anger about Obama result in a McCain presidiocy? Is your emotion so fundamentally important that there is no cost to great to bear in homage to it?

    Parent
    I get the impression, you're scolding (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by MMW on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:44:25 PM EST
    and looking at me like a concerned father trying to get his kid to see the lesson. It's annoying me and my EMOTION, has been precisely right on the Iraq debacle, the economy, the 2004 and 2006 elections, as well as the disappointment that would be Pelosi and Reid. So I'll stick with them, cause I'm batting one thousand right now.

    Unlike a lot of people here, I don't think McCain is the worst thing for this country. I think another EGO is the worst thing for this country.

    And how bad would it be if the dems in congress would actually have to do their JOBS for a change? Imagine that.

    Take your condescending jazz elsewhere.

    PS - my daddy doesn't question my emotions or decisions.

    Parent

    George Bush (none / 0) (#201)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    invaded Iraq based on his emotion. Tell me why your emotion is more reliable than his.

    Parent
    Well.Hillary and what she thinks (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:09:32 AM EST
    Hillary early on said something that joined me to her hip (sorry I always use americanisms wrong).  Anyway, she said:" I fought to long in my life to see all the things that I worked for unravel".  This alleged greed for power is not what the morons think it is.  She really does not want the Republicans to win.  She wants to see healthcare happen.  She is really committed to the issues she talks about.  

    I think she would do it cause she will figure out that Cheney used the role for mischief, she can use it for good.  The job is overwhelming for one person.  I think it can be a co-presidency cause Obama does not have the substance to do the work, he needs someone to guide him.  When Axelrod is gone, who is he gonna get for a brain?  

    you (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:40 AM EST
    are right.

    She is desperate because she knows just what is at stake.

    Its not about some personal "crazed ambition" - its that she knows, like we all do, just whats gonna happen when sweet young Mr Bipartisan wanders innocently into the arena.

    And I know she would be vp if she could help prevent the disaster of another YOYO administration destroying this country, even if its because they are just too clueless to fight for Democratic ideals.

    Parent

    This depends (none / 0) (#215)
    by 0 politico on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:40:02 PM EST
    on how much authority is pass on down to the VP office.

    Remember, that W was already beholden to Dick for his candidacy and guidance(?).  Dick also self nominated himself after he told W that there just weren't any other Repubs suitable for the job.  BO and HC do not have that kind of synergy or co-dependence.

    No, she is better off staying in the Senate and being a thorn in the side of who ever is elected to help keep them straight.

    As for down the road, that depends on a lot of things.  But, I would not balme her if she told the party leaders to pack sand.

    Parent

    I'll pass (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Prabhata on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:19:55 AM EST
    I could not vote for BO as president.  Here is why

    The snob at SOTU, demonstrated his immaturity
    The race baiting and accusation that BC is racist
    The "You're likable enough" comment, demonstrated disdain for another candidate
    The wiping of his shoulder and maybe giving the finger to HRC, this act demonstrated again his immaturity
    The whining about how evil and will do anything to win attack.

    Those are a few of my favorite things that I find BO revolting.  It wasn't that way at the beginning, but BO worked hard for me to vote for McCain and send the Democratic Party that a candidate that bad is worse than 8 more years of Republican rule.  McCain's policies might be bad, but he does love Americans and the US.  I suspect he will do alright.

    ...send the Democratic Party a message... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Prabhata on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:40 AM EST
    I intend to (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Cate on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:30:02 AM EST
    re-register as an Independent 'if' Obama is nominated. AND, I will NEVER vote for Obama.

    Parent
    I did (none / 0) (#142)
    by smott on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:04:07 PM EST
    re-registered as Indy today.

    Parent
    I'll bet it felt (none / 0) (#207)
    by Cate on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:11:39 PM EST
    good...and enormously strange...and sad. :o(

    Parent
    I'm sorry (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:49:38 AM EST
    but some of these are quite childish things to be upset about.

    disagree with him on issues but to point out the "you're likable enough" comment was hardly malevolent.

    the giving the finger to HRC was proven wrong with multiple angle photos.

    the wiping off his shoulder was brushing off the attacks, not Hillary.

    If you are upset about immaturity, what about Hillary mocking Obama with her "...the sky will open.." speech.

    - The "should we get Obama a pillow?" debate?

    I'm a Hillary supporter that's coming around to rallying around Obama, because I believe the ultimate goal in Novemeber is to get a democrat elected because i CANNOT ideologically bring myself to vote for McCain. Sorry I am not going to sit this out because I'm bitter my candidate didn't get nominated. I was for Edwards first. I got over that quickly because too much is at stake to get caught up in a primary season so much that I will stake my children's future on a grudge.

    Parent

    Here's Toni Morrison on why she (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:27:52 AM EST
    supports Obama [what are we missing here?]:

    Why did you endorse Barack Obama for the presidency? --Chris Francis Lightbourne, Long Island, N.Y.
    I thought about voting for Hillary at the beginning. I don't care that she is a woman. I need more than that. Neither his race, his gender, her race or her gender was enough. I needed something else, and the something else was his wisdom.



    Parent
    She means his speech in 2002 (none / 0) (#60)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:30:05 AM EST
    I'm guessing.

    Parent
    sexism written all over it (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:52 AM EST
    Not by you BTD, or even by the promoters of the movement/site, but the ideal is very symbolic of typical sexism in the office where the more experienced woman is second banana to the younger inexperienced boss, and does all the work for him. That formula unfortunately is all too common and causes great pain to see for many.

    I certainly hope Clinton does not agree to this idea. I don't think Obama or his followers would like it. But I have to admit, if they do it, it would probably help Obama win. I personally would rather see Clinton vs. McCain in 2012.

    no (none / 0) (#125)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:53:31 AM EST
    I don't think its sexism because Clinton actually looks to be second in this race. So it's not the idea of a woman subordinated to second place because of unfairness, its because SHE GOT SECOND PLACE.

    The Primary race rules were there in the beginning, they were there during the race and they will dictate the outcome. Whether or not Clinton is more experienced or not is moot, to simply throw out the results of a primary because you aren't happy with the result will not do any good.

    Sure, argue the rules are wrong, that we should use the republican model, but you should have been arguing this before the race began. Or were you also thinking Clinton was inevitable?

    Parent

    way to win hearts and minds (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:15:16 PM EST
    Is there a course for Obama supporters to destroy any hope of unity and any hope of a democratic white house, or does it just come naturally.

    Parent
    excuse me? (none / 0) (#173)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:25:43 PM EST
    Those are the facts, I'm sorry if they're hurtful. I would have loved if Hillary won. But what i see now is leaning towards desperation.

    Parent
    The Obama/Clinton ticket (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:26 AM EST
    will only cause the feminists in the party to dig in their heels, and the resentments to reach critical mass.

    Sorry, no dice.  Doesn't solve the problem...at all.

    Imagine the debates.  All the gaffes would be at the presidential level while the substance would be in the VP's debates.

    Puh-lease.

    And besides that, Hillary is already the scapegoat if Obama loses.  If she's on his ticket, she's the double-scapegoat.

    Me, I'm hoping for 3rd party dom.  I could care less if the corrupt Donna Brazille Democrats win at this point.

    I hate it, I really do. (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by Anne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:26:42 AM EST
    And the thing is that he needs her more than she needs him - and polling supports that.  In fact, I think he drags the ticket down no matter what spot he holds - if anyone thinks the GOP will not go after Obama if he is in the VP spot, they are delusional.

    If I were Clinton, I wouldn't go near the VP spot for love nor money; tieing herself to him would be the biggest political mistake she could make, because before this is all over, Obama will be the political equivalent of Typhoid Mary.

    There is nothing Obama can do to win the GE. (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:49:04 PM EST
    He is toast with the Indys. Yes, I agree with Ed Koch. So sue me.

    If every HRC supporter voted for him it would still not be enough.

    There are 34% Republicans, 36% Democrats and 30% Independent/Unaffiliated voters as of 1/1/08 according to Rasmussen.

    The numbers do not work for him. John McCain will get enough of those voters and Hillary will get enough of those voters, but Obama will not. It's crystal f**king clear.

    BTD gets it but he has not drunk the Kool-Aid with the memory eraser handily included.

    I cannot believe that people do not understand what a nightmare Obama will be in the general.

    Or maybe, just maybe, they'd rather lose and blame it all on Clinton. That way, the Clintons get to be evil For All Time and Obama can be the noble loser.

    What a great and uniting vision.

    Parent

    Love Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Danielle on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:28:28 AM EST
    I love Hillary and she is a complete class act. I agree with those on this site that say she should not sully her name with the obvious crap that is going to be thrown at Obama, i.e., wright, elitism, ayers, daley machine, rezko,etc.  I want our girl, Hillary, to stay out of this mess.  

    Couldn't agree more (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Cate on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:19 AM EST
    Thanks.

    Parent
    Disagree. (none / 0) (#144)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:04:40 PM EST
    The obvious crap that Hillary also threw during this primary you mean?

    I was rooting for HIllary for most of the primary, but to see her get in line with republican attacks was unsavory at best.

    There seems to be an obvious discourse of one-sidedness on this blog, which i can understand to some extent because it is a pro-Hillary blog.

    But one must acknowledge that Hillary did not run a good campaign, mostly because I think she surrounded herself with the wrong people (Penn). And although many will blame the media, Obama, etc. If she was such an overwhelmingly better candidate than Obama, this should have been over by Feb 5 as she had predicted. If Obama is such a sham candidate, he would have been gone in the first round with richardson, dodd, edwards, etc.

    Parent

    the usual concern troll (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:17:10 PM EST
    You of course do know that you're hurting Obama with this?

    Parent
    concern troll? (none / 0) (#175)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:27:02 PM EST
    Must i come here with full Pro-Hillary bias in order to not be seen as a troll? I disagreed with her campaign tactics even though i believe she's the best candidate in the race. I'm sorry if that's too much honesty for this blog.

    Parent
    Let's see (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:03:53 PM EST
    No history until recently.  Claims Hillary was the best candidate but all comments are those an Obama partisan might make.  I don't think you are being totally honest.  What is your motivation in participating.  If you are trying to change hearts and minds, you are going about it the wrong way.

    Parent
    Ditto (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by shoephone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    kcarab showed up on this site for the very first time today and has already made almost 30 comments. He/she is a very transparent troll.

    Parent
    If the point of all of this (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:31:18 AM EST
    was to get rid of the Clintons' influence in the Democratic party, I don't see why any of them would agree to have her on the ticket or in the position of being "a heartbeat away."

    Obama has shown himself (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:50 AM EST
    as someone who is not qualified to be president.

    The country has some serious damage to be repaired while simultaneously trying to implement new policies. Obama can't even keep up with Hillary in the energy required for the campaign.

    If he were to end up as ineffective a president as I imagine, that will destroy the Clinton legacy, and I doubt she's willing to let that happen.


    Obama Will Have To Earn My Vote (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:40:32 AM EST
    no matter who he selects as VP. Clinton as VP will not change that for me.

    Wish I could rate this a 5 about 50 times n/t (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:48:01 AM EST


    OK....here's my take. (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:07:06 PM EST
    BTD has convinced me that this dual ticket would be OK.  More important, if the VP position were offered and if she took it, then I trust Hillary's "progress by inches" judgment call.  She truly is a leader.  Sometimes, one has to take progress slowly.

    Having said that, which means....I'd come back into the fold, be enthusiastic, and even work for a dual ticket.....

    I don't believe he'd offer it to her.  I think that's where the fantasy thinking is coming into play.  He's all about anti-Clinton.  He is all about a New Democratic Party, with him as the Czar.

    And he absolutely is lying through his teeth when he says Reagan was his role model.  Nuh uh, can't fool me.  It's Bill Clinton.

    Bill Clinton is whom Obama admires.  He will never be the campaign wizard, but he's proven already he can do it in a different way.  

    Of course, as an ardent Clinton admirer, I say, he's missing the point.  Bill really did pull in both sides and got a heck of a lot accomplished, even with the bimbo factor.

    Anyway.....my 2 cents on this issue.  Worth about that much, I'm sure.  :)

    Disagree (none / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:20:09 PM EST
    I don't believe he'd offer it to her.  I think that's where the fantasy thinking is coming into play.  He's all about anti-Clinton.  He is all about a New Democratic Party, with him as the Czar.

    I think that you are underestimating him. Both of them are pros and all the smoke and mirrors hostility bla bla is a given that any pro pol understands as part of the job. Obama and Hillary are going to do what is best for the party, and what is best looks like a unity ticket.

    Parent

    I'm waiting for the (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:31:06 PM EST
    side by side books on tape audio of their respective memoirs.   We'll listen as McCain talks of sewing his own American flag to salute every morning while in a prison camp and the Xmas he spent in the clink and defiantly sang Silent Night with his fellow POW's being the closest he ever felt to God, before segueing to Obama waxing eloquent on how uncomfortable he always was with his whiteness and how his beloved pastor taught him what it meant to be black and inspired the title of his book.

    Great idea (1.00 / 2) (#18)
    by FrankinTexas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:08:09 AM EST
    I think she would be great in a Cheney role, coming up with policy while he plays the role of W a freindly face to push policy thru that she could never pass with her high negatives.  Maybe in 8 years some of his charm would rub off on her and she would be a lot more electible.

    Ha. (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:15:52 AM EST
    He felt compelled to sign-up (none / 0) (#222)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:51:00 PM EST
    today just to share those pearls of wisdom.  I wonder if BTD hasn't just given up on his electability argument but is going to be forced to give up on the unity ticket idea.

    Parent
    Unity (none / 0) (#7)
    by wasabi on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:00:53 AM EST
    It makes more sense for me to have it Clinton/Obama than the other way around.

    However, Clinton would do very well in the traditional role of VP in the fall campaign.  Obama would flop at that.

    I dont really see the point (none / 0) (#11)
    by ajain on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:03:21 AM EST
    I honestly dont believe she wants to be VP. I wont believe it until I hear it from her mouth. Taking second place to Obama will be odd to say the least.
    In any case, I dont think she will be an effective 'attack dog' against McCain. And will it really be good for Obama if his VP has a better debate performance than he does. At this stage its nearly impossible for me to see that.

    I think she is staying in because 1) its hard to let go, 2) she is still believes in herself, 3) she feels the burden of being of the first female with a shot at the presidency.

    She is staying in (5.00 / 7) (#20)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:09:12 AM EST
    because she owes it to everyone of her supporters to stay in until the last primary.

    Parent
    i don't (none / 0) (#27)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:15:03 AM EST
    but I'm probably over-sensitive to the bashing.

    I'm ready for her to not take it anymore.

    It's like watching a woman get beaten in public.

    Parent

    question (1.00 / 1) (#40)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:33 AM EST
    Are you comparing Obama supporters with "woman beaters"?

    Isn't this the sort of nonsense that gets you booted off this site?


    Parent

    LOL* (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:39:21 AM EST
    Defensive, eh?

    I'm talking about the press, mostly.  I take care at this stage of the process to not go near the sites that have been so disrespectful to her campaign and to her supporters.  I'm not a masochist, thankfully.

    Parent

    What? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:22:19 AM EST
    That is not what she did at all.  

    Parent
    she will do ANYTHING to... (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:15:24 AM EST
    :)

    to save our country from disaster.

    And if by being vp she can mitigate the folly of picking another policy despising egotist to run the country into the ditch, she will do that thing.

    She loves this country enough to save it from itself, even from its stupid DNC.

    Parent

    Sorry. (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by MMW on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:57 AM EST
    Sometimes you have to love something / someone enough to let them go - so they can make their own mistakes and GROW from it.  

    Parent
    So, you're saying (none / 0) (#56)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:27:54 AM EST
    ? Someone needs to give up?

    Parent
    NO. I'm saying Hillary can't go near the VP (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by MMW on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:54 AM EST
    Spot.

    She shouldn't clean up America's mess or save it from itself, by accepting the VP spot.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:52:34 AM EST
    Which is why I think she'll stay in till the Convention.  I'm 100% SURE she knows all the things we do - Obama's bad for the country, he's bad for the Party, he'll lose in November, he wants to disenfranchise voters.  I just don't see her dropping out.  Or anyway, I'm praying like hell she's not going to.

    Can't give her any more money, as I'm maxed out, but I'll be in Kentucky to help starting next week.

    Parent

    A strong indication Clinton is about (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:05:23 AM EST
    to drop out?

    Not at all (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:33:32 AM EST
    Not related.

    Parent
    But: (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:32 AM EST
    Until recently, Arora was Clinton's press spokesman, but now he's okay with Obama in the No. 1 spot."

    What is this guy, an out lier renegade?

    Parent

    A lot of work to be done (none / 0) (#31)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:15:54 AM EST
    If the initial set of comments in this thread is any indication, then before anyone even considers a "dream ticket", there really needs to be an intervention and detoxification.  For all the claims that Obama supporters were Kool-Aid drinking automatons, the sentiments I have seen on this site for the past several weeks suggests that there is as much difference in the diehard supporters of each candidate as there is difference in the candidates policies.  In other words, none.

    The bottom line is that as Democrats, we need to unite behind our candidate or we will have 4-8 more years of a Republican presidency and a SCOTUS that will cause much more harm than any candidate possibly could.  I hope that much of what I am hearing and reading is nothing more than an emotional purgatory before common sense and realism sets in.  

    I am growing more and more pessimistic about the future of our country when I read many of the kind of emotionally-driven positions found on the blogosphere.  For years I thought this was the domain of the Republicans and their myopic agenda.  I was mistaken.  As Democrats, we have behaved similarly to those we have railed against for years.  It really is time for some adults to step in and try to restore some sanity before we are left with nothing but another decade of finger pointing.

    As for Armando's idea, an Obama-Hillary ticket would be a formidable one, though I do think there are other potential running mates who would bring more to the ticket because of their regional support or experience.  That said, if an Obama-Hillary ticket will unite the party and begin the healing process, then it should be given serious consideration.

    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:18:00 AM EST
    I like to think I am a bit of a bridge, but the Obama supporters of all variations of fervency hate me with a passion so I think I am deluding myself.

    Parent
    [Snicker.] (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:19:20 AM EST
    Totally Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:22 AM EST
    Undoubtedly there are Obama supporters who resent you for your connection to this site and many of the sentiments that have been espoused here.  But the vast majority of Obama supporters realize that this was nothing more than a hard-fought nomination battle and there is no lack of respect for those that passionately supported Hillary.   So do not confuse the fervor and competiveness that existed during the primary season with some enduring hate.  

    As an Obama supporter, my respect for you has not diminished at all.  If anything, you reaffirmed what I always believed about you Armando -- that you are a passionate advocate and an essential voice.  The fact that you remain friends with Markos and many other Obama leaning bloggers is all the evidence you need to realize that come Summer, the wounds of this primary season will be mostly healed.

    I do think, however, it is incumbent on supporters of both candidates to begin reigning in the vitriol and refocusing all Democrats on what is most important -- which is ensuring that McCain does not get the chance to continue with the failed policies of George Bush.

    Parent

    I don't think you get the real (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:58:29 AM EST
    problem Obama has here (not that Hillary wouldn't have her own with, say, the AA community).

    Obama's basic problem isn't that he has "angered" fervent Hillary supporters. There are, in fact, relatively few supporters of either side so fervent that bruised feelings are going to make the difference in the election.

    The problem is that the millions of real life voters out there who are white and working class, and who have swung elections for decades, and will continue to do so likely for decades, obviously feel that Obama has not heard them or understood them or seemed to have any sympathy for them. From their point of view, I'd be very surprised if rejecting Hillary as VP would not be seen as a rejection of their own interests. No one else can replace Hillary as someone representing their point of view -- no one else has the stature or the history of getting their support.

    Obama and his supporters should be simply desperate to remedy this problem with white working class voters, rather than simply trying to find some way to throw a measly bone their way -- which is essentially what you are suggesting when you say Obama would solve this problem perfectly well by choosing someone else. Selecting Hillary as VP is the obvious best solution to this -- though I doubt that even it will suffice.

    Yet all the evidence is that Obama is not even going to think about this option. Listen to Nancy Pelosi, for example, and you can see how deeply hostile the Obama camp is to this alternative. And the sheer arrogance of that perspective, the inability to look beyond one's grudge and see the larger perspective -- to see and model what self-denial is required for unity, Obama's supposed message -- is simply breathtaking.

    I don't even know what Obama can do to ameliorate his image among working class whites. The Unity pony is dead. Obama has basically trashed the one precedent he as a Democrat might point to as an indicator of the economic success of Democratic policies -- the legacy of Bill Clinton. What can the man do or say that will make working class whites believe in him as an agent of economic change? I can't even begin to figure it out. The best he can do is point to the failures of the Bush administration, but without a positive model, how believable will be his message?

    Parent

    I do get it (none / 0) (#155)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:10:55 PM EST
    With all due respect, I think you are either underestimating Obama or are still in campaign mode.  I do not believe for an instant that Obama has any intention of ignoring working class white voters any more than Hillary would have ignored African-American voters if she was the nominee.  The fact of the matter is that Obama did win a majority of blue- collar voters in a number of significant states such as Virginia, Colorado, Wisconsin, etc....  Admittedly, towards the end of the primary cycle, Hillary's campaign began focusing on this voting block and began promoting a more populist message.  That does not translate into Obama not appealing to that group or receiving their vote in the Fall.

    The flip side of this argument is that if Hillary is the nominee, she is unelectable because she receives less than 10% of the African-American vote.  A block that is essential for us to prevail in November.  The fact that working class white voters chose Hillary over Obama in the Spring in no way suggests that those same Democrats will choose McCain over Obama in the Fall.  Anymore than had Hillary won the nomination would I expect African-Americans to vote for McCain over Hillary.

    The choice was between two Democrats and trying to extrapolate the primary vote and argue that those that did not vote for a particular candidate will not vote for them in November I think is just not a very compelling argument.

    Parent

    No, excuse me, you do NOT get it, (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:16:41 PM EST
    given what you are writing here.

    The problem is not that Obama has an intention to "ignore" working class voters, and will start to do so once Hillary is no longer in the picture.

    You act as though once Obama is the nominee, all he has to do is turn his attention to them, and they are a solved problem.  Obama's problem with them is far deeper than that. Obama, and his supporters, should be simply desperate to find a way, any way, to deal with the inability of Obama to appeal to those voters, especially as Obama's "issues" have become better known (which they weren't in WI and VA). The numbers and the apparent repulsion are pretty amazing for a Democratic candidate.

    And I'm not denying Hillary might have her own problems were she to be the nominee -- you're the one bringing that up, and who seems to be in "campaign mode". I'm assuming Obama is the nominee, and trying to point out the problems that face him.

    And, again, you simply seem more than happy to see Hillary be rejected by Obama as VP, even though that might go a very good distance in remedying Obama's own problem with working class voters. Really, if you are coming to this site expecting people to be perfectly OK with Obama snubbing both Hillary and, implicitly, her supporters and voters, who are you to preach to anyone about bringing Democrats together?

    If Obama really wants himself to preach a message of unity, wouldn't the first such step be to reach out to Hillary and offer her a VP slot? If he can't bring himself to get over their differences, how can he presume to preach it to anyone else? I think that is called hypocrisy -- and I should think that he had better find a way to avoid it if he really wants to be taken seriously as a "new politician".

    Parent

    Love your name (none / 0) (#199)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:49:51 PM EST
    Hmm,  why is it that we hear Obama supporters making nice now???

    Parent
    Sorry! No Cigar (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:46 AM EST
    After the hatred directed towards the Clintons all this primary season, now Obama supporters want unity.

    Why didn't they have this in mind when they called the Clintons racists?

    When Obama called Hilalry divisive?

    Because it was politically expedient.

    Now that it is politically expedient we should all sing the song of unity.

    Obama is unqualified to be president.

    Many Hillary supporters will not support him.


    Parent

    so what you are saying is, (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:31:17 AM EST
     if some How Hillary does get the nominee, you aren't going to call for unity with BHO supporters because you don't need them?

    or do you seem to think that HRC supporters were all roses and sunshines to Obama supporters huh?

    I would dare you to go to Hillaryis44.org, or Taylormarsh.com and pretend to be an Obama supporter for 20 minutes, but I bet you already know its been a two way street since day one.
     

    Parent

    That is a reaction (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:33:29 AM EST
    You can't keep elbowing someone and then when they react claim moral equivalency.

    Hilalryis44 and Taylor Marsh were both legitimate reactions of people who have been kicked around for too long by Obama supporters.

    You guys should have thought of that before you started your online hatred last fall.

    Parent

    yeah I keep hearing that (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:45:37 AM EST
    only Dailykos still has HRC supporters posting all the time, and those who have left like Alegre well if the diaries she posts at mydd are what she was posting on daily kos I am not surprised.

    and what people seem to forget is the term Obama supporter is not a monolithic bloc, if you take your frustrations out on someone who did nothing to you, because of what someone else did you to you.

    how are you any better? i have not insulted anyone, I don't use terms like clintonista or Obamabot, but it is routinely used against me, even here.

    does that now mean I have the right to act like that to others?

    sorry but that excuse doesn't work for me, I don't insult the other side no matter how much it insults me and I don't see that as a legitimate excuse to act like a child. and I would tell them just like I will tell my daughter when she grows up

    "I don't care who started it"

    still unexcusable behavior no matter who does it.

    and as i have said before if you don't want Hillaryis44.org to be the standard holder for HRC supporters then how about you guys STOP trying to make Dailykos as some official standard for Obama supporters ok?

    because honestly I see little difference in MyDD, Talkleft,Daily kos, its all just a matter of which side has more numbers.

    Parent

    Who started it matters a lot in real life (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:02:44 PM EST
    We are not talking about school yard fights.

    We are talking about a primary campiagn in which the Obama campaign has followed a deliberate strategy of belittling and deemaning Hillary since last fall.

    His supporters picked it up and implemented it online. Did anyone on your side speak-up against it at DKOS, TPM, Huff.Post? Anyone?

    I am telling you again. I was positive towards Obama last fall. I started paying attention to this campaign last November and started visiting my usual liberal sites, DKOS, TPS, Atrios, Kevin Drum, and Matt Yglesias. I immediately started noticing foul language against Hillary, really demeaning and sickening language. I saw nothing like that against Obama.

    This was before anyone noticed Hillaryis44 or Taylor Marsh. I found out about these sites only in January.

    Wake up and realize what your side has wrought in this primary campaign.

    I am a long (long) time Democrat. I had never seen anything like that against a prominent fellow Democrat. Especially someone like Hillary who has been fighting for progressive causes long before Obama arrived on the scene.

    Parent

    You're on the wrong website, sister (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:02:59 PM EST
    If you want this stuff to stop, you need to start hanging out on DK, etc., and getting the shrillness from your own side to stop.  Maybe you personally didn't insult Hillary supporters, but plenty of Obama supporters have and are going to continue to do so.

    You guys can't have it both ways - continue to claim impending nomination for Obama and then pretend HRC supporters would be unreasonable if the high-heeled pump were on the other foot.  A LOT of the reason HRC supporters are being so negative is that we think Obama took this nomination unfairly.

    Don't like it?  Too bad.  There's nothing you can do about it now.  You guys should have been pushing your candidate to count Michigan and Florida, instead of petulantly holding on to some Republicanlike understanding of a bunch of arcane technicalities, none of which were in the universe of being good enough to justify disenfranchising several million voters.  All of whom the Party will need in November, but you didn't care for months, so why should we believe you care now?

    Obama and his hysterical supporters can go get stuffed, for all I care.  I live in a state chock full of the most rabid Republicans you can imagine, and the Dem Party has been the only not-Republican option available.  Since you seem not to care one iota what you're going to do to the actual lives of real people by wrecking the only coalition that can save them from, oh, gay-marriage ballot initiatives, and plans such as the one in my own state to make abortion illegal without exception in the case of rape and incest.

    I'm so angry about this I don't know what to do.  But I am NOT going to play footsie with the Obamites who have wrecked and ruined this party, I am NOT going to vote for their illegitimate candidate no matter what, and I am NOT going to sit idly by and let this Party disenfranchise seven or eight million voters.  If you people want trouble, you've got it.  I'm not advocating violence, but I personally had no problem confronting armed guards with my picket sign at the Bush inauguration on January 20, 2001, and I'll be in Denver carrying another one.  With bells on.  And if I've gotta show up in D.C. on January 20, 2009 to picket Obama stealing another election, you better believe I'll be there.

    Parent

    I think you need to read some of your former (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:20:12 PM EST
    posts, TruthMatters...

    Parent
    I hardly think hillaryis44 compares with (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:39:40 AM EST
    dailykos as a site for progressives. It is just a fanclub for one candidate, as there are for the other.

    The central organising arm of the left: dailykos, threw us out. Scared, intimidated, insulted and demeaned us out of being the better half of the progressive voices there. We are scattered around the blogosphere now.

    Armando has kindly taken us in as have a few other places springing up all over.

    Parent

    Time to get realistic (none / 0) (#98)
    by SpinDoctor on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:42:32 AM EST
    Obama and Clinton ran aggressive campaigns.  Given the stakes, it is what you should have expected.  For every Clinton supporters who believes that Obama ran a dirty campaign, there are a similar number of Obama supporter who will say the exact same thing about the Clinton campaign.  Heck, look at all the exit polling where voters indicated who ran the more unfair campaign.

    So go ahead and keep pointing fingers and crying about dirty pool.  It was a two-way street and both sides have things they should be proud of and ashamed of.  For years I have listened to to blowhards like Dennis Prager claim that liberals respond solely to emotion and cannot be trusted to govern.  I literally shook my head, puzzled at where such a cariacture could come from.  Sadly, I am now beginning to see where knuckleheads like Prager can come up with these stereotypes and can only hope that it represents a very, very small minority of the Democratic party.  If not, we deserve 8 more years of Bush.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:47:10 PM EST
    but didn't Obama always say he was above all that?  I am also convinced that Hillary did not "throw the kitchen sink" at him.  She asked legitimate questions that anyone who wants to run for CiC should have to answer.

    You see, there was a time that I thought I could vote for him.  But I was so puzzled that his supporters did not seem to behave in unifying ways.

    So, the hypocrisy of the Obama campaign and the very idea that it tried to sell as him being a unifier just does not fly with me.

    The politics have been ugly period.  I do not care who started this sibling quibble in the Democratic party.  I see Obama as unelectable for several reasons.

    I think the biggest liability he will have is that he ran as a man above "politics as usual".  The dirty tricks and games of his campaign will be gleefully exposed by the GOP and 527's.  

    In addition, we have caucus problems that will not go away in addition to MI and FL disenfranchisement.  There will be an air of corruption and illegitimacy hovering around his nomination.  

    I could go on about Obama baggage that will sink him, but we know most of the talking points already.

    Time will tell.

    Parent

    eh, I think the problem you see here (none / 0) (#49)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:04 AM EST
    is alot of posters aren't ready to admit its over.

    as long as Hillary is still in they want to hold on to hope, when she drops out, you will see alot of em come around right then and there. others will take longer.

    and if is going to be a joint ticket Obama needs to decide quickly because he will piss off a alot of his base that doesn't want Hillary anywhere near the ticket and they need just as much time has the other side to deal with it.

    but i agree emotions run high, I am surprised. I am really surprised people are still thinking this will go to the convention.

    Parent

    You guys need to open your eyes (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:28:41 AM EST
    You guys need to get realistic. If you think Hillary supporters will just move over to Obama "when she drops out" you really don't have any clue to how alienated we are from the Democratic party.

    I see this as someone who voted for Democrats up and down the ticket all my life time.

    No more!

    Parent

    did I ever said they would just move over? (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM EST
    no, but will they eventually? yes if the issues are important to them.

    no one who says the roe v. wade needs NOT be overturned is voting for McCain.

    and if they don't care about the issues in the first place then Obama never really had a chance with em anyways.

    Parent

    disagree (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:45:01 AM EST
    Obama has made it clear that he hasn't made up his mind about when life starts. So currently he his not committed to being either pro life or pro choice. So by his own admission, we can't count on that issue from him.

    Another reason the RvW argument can't be used as blackmail is because we still have a democratic congress. And with some hope, they would block any obvious SCOTUS nominees that are heavily pro life. Yes, I agree that's a pathetic hope, but so is hoping Obama would actually be pro choice.

    Bottom line, blackmailing on that issues just doesn't work.

    Parent

    yeah right (none / 0) (#112)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:47:42 AM EST
    I bet his voting record backs you up on this too.

    or I know I know lets say what voting record all he does is vote 'Present" right?

    Parent

    What is his record? (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:53:22 AM EST
    What is Obama's record?

    What are his accomplishments?

    What record he has of "post-paritsan politics"?

    What record he has of practicing "new politics?"

    None!

    Parent

    it does (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:20:09 PM EST
    in most every important pro choice vote he came across, he did not vote for it. He voted present. Or worse, he "accidentally" voted against it. My guess is that he's actually pro life. But just a guess since that's all we have.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#176)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:29:52 PM EST
    You better let NARAL and Planned Parenthood know about this because they believe that he is 100% pro choice, as do most people who have not lost their minds.

    Parent
    they only thought that (none / 0) (#188)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:39:59 PM EST
    because they believed his spin. They noticed his empty/negative voting record on the issue, but have been giving him the benefit of the doubt. I just got tired of giving him that. Especially when he came out and made it clear he's uncommitted on the issue.

    Parent
    You Are Spreading Misinformation (none / 0) (#216)
    by squeaky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 02:01:09 PM EST
    So stop making things up. Obama is committed to women having choice and holds exactly the same position as Hillary in that regard.  

    His voting record on choice in the Senate is exactly the same as Hillary's is.

    Parent

    That is the McGovern argument (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:56 AM EST
    This is what the McGovernites said in early 70s. If you care for issues vote for McGovern. Yet, a large number of Democrats left the party and have been voting for Republicans ever since.

    These are the Reagan Democrats. A very similar thing is happening right now because of the way Obama and his supporters chose to behave in this campaign towards the Clintons.

    This is a real problem. You might want to acknowledge it first if you have any hopes of addressing it.

    Parent

    well good thing (none / 0) (#127)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:54:11 AM EST
    Obama isn't McGovern then huh?

    Parent
    Unfortunately, Obama is the next McGovern (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by BigB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:04:01 PM EST
    Obama = MGovern (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    as far as political wisdom is concerned. And as far as hope of winning the white house. Obama and his supporters do indeed need to understand this. If they deny it and stick their head in the sand, then we're definitely done.

    Parent
    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:00:23 PM EST
    It is Obama who needs to move to unify the party but he does not seem to be in a hurry.  BTD has been giving him great advice for actions to take all along but he has been either too arrogant or too timid to take them.  He should have agreed to FL and MI revotes without losing much over the eventual result.  Even now, he could take the following actions.

    Take the lead on a resolution to seating FL and MI.

    Stop making a big deal of "clinching" the pledged delegate lead which isn't even correct (see point above).

    Acknowledge that he will need Clinton and Clinton supporters in the fall.

    Unfortunately, my impression is that the insiders in Obama's campaign really have convinced themselves that as Samantha Powers said "Hillary is a monster".  Someday, I would like to know what their basis was for this belief.

    Parent

    Americans are not looking (none / 0) (#33)
    by leftygogo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:17:34 AM EST
    for an old out of touch war hero to lead us into battle, they are looking for a diplomat to get us out of a quagmire.

    too bad we're not running the diplomatic candidate (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:30:38 AM EST
    but we're instead running the court jester. So given a choice between those two, I think americans will go for the war hero. It's his turn will be the feeling.

    Parent
    Ha! (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Davidson on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:06 AM EST
    You honestly think Obama is not only a diplomat (Did he learn that at the Rick Steves School of Foreign Policy as well?) but also one who will lead us out of the quagmire?  Hilarious!  Did you not see that Samantha Power interview where she basically admitted that his entire rhetoric on the campaign trail is a joke?  Did you not read his essay in Foreign Affairs that is quite hawkish about greatly expanding our military presence throughout the world?

    Also the perception will be this: distinguished war hero who will do right in Iraq vs. unpatriotic, lying opportunistic neophyte who can't be trusted, let alone be any kind of leader.

    Parent

    The thing about marketing (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    is that it's pretty safe to assume that by November, many Americans will want whatever the adverts have told them they should want.

    I think we're quite overconfident on the blogs about beating McCain easily on Iraq. I think a whole heck of a lot of swingy-ish voters will give him the benefit of the doubt on it.

    To be clear, I have no solid opinion yet on how Obama will likely fare in the general. We have a lot of advantages in this cycle, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of openings for McCain to outperform the GOP, particularly on the war, and I've seen a lot of ideas about the general around the blogs that strike me as fantasy.

    Parent

    OK, I did it (none / 0) (#44)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:21:53 AM EST
    and I don't want any grief for it.  I did it because I would never vote for Obama on his own (no matter who his running mate is).  I also wrote a note for each of the CA superdelegates.  So, I've done my duty for all of those that are supportive of this idea.  I would absolutely vote for Clinton/Obama '08 when I wouldn't before.  The chance I would vote for Obama/Clinton '08 is greater than 50% now which is up from 0% to 30% .... I guess that's what BTD is looking for?

    Now, I just vant to be left aloooooone.

    IMHO-Hillary has one Thing on Her Mind (none / 0) (#48)
    by TearDownThisWall on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:24:28 AM EST
    2012.
    so however, she begs out of 2008
    she knows she has to do it with enough finess to regroup in 3 years for another run

    Very little support out there (none / 0) (#53)
    by Faust on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:25:55 AM EST
    for a Obama/Clinton ticket. From either side. At least in the partisanosphere. Which invites the question: why is this a good idea? Is there some evidence that outside of the partisanosphere that this will be helpful?

    Personally I'm fine with it. But so many people seem to reject it. Is there some polling data on this in the broader electorate?

    news report - 15% Hillaries voting for McCain (none / 0) (#63)
    by Josey on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:31:06 AM EST
    exit polls show at least 50% support (none / 0) (#91)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:10 AM EST
    I would vote for it (none / 0) (#152)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:09:25 PM EST
    if it happens.

    But if Obama is at the top of the ticket, the Democrats lose in November.

    So, I really don't see the point.

    Parent

    leaning towards no (none / 0) (#66)
    by jjsmoof on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:31:30 AM EST
    after Brazile's comment about not needing the 'old coalition' why should HRC agree to a 'unity ticket'.  


    because it is the ONLY chance (none / 0) (#100)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:43:44 AM EST
    to get the old coalition's needy needs heard!

    We need soc sec saved.
    We need singlepayer.
    We need a clean energy future.
    We need compassionate immigration policy.
    We need family planning not abstinence as policy.
    We need etc...

    They don't need a president, they just want a cool mascot.

    Parent

    would they bother (none / 0) (#107)
    by jjsmoof on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:46:43 AM EST
    Would they bother listening though.  

    Parent
    because only (none / 0) (#123)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:52:56 AM EST
    Clinton still handily beating Republicans 291 to 236 McCain in electoral college votes.

    Obama has moved up to parity wwith McCain

    Parent

    Sounds like we need (none / 0) (#154)
    by smott on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:09:42 PM EST
    ....to move to Canada!

    Parent
    no - Germany (none / 0) (#214)
    by dotcommodity on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:38:24 PM EST
    Canada has fallen prey to the resource curse now that they have tar sands oil: to scrape the bottom of the barrel and emit 3 times as much carbon as even oil drilling does...use up 3 times as much water making it.

    Democracies always crumble from being blessed with certain resources. Thats why the South votes Rethug.

    Parent

    becasue she is smart (none / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM EST
    and Brazile is an idiot.

    Parent
    Honestly, (none / 0) (#68)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:32:09 AM EST
    if Hillary agrees to an arrangement, in which Obama is the top of the ticket -- and I think she should -- she will likely simply be taking one for the team, because it's looking increasingly improbable that Obama can win, even with Hillary as VP. It does, however, represent the best chance the Democrats in November.

    But I have a very strong feeling that Obama is just going to reject such a ticket, out of sheer arrogance combined with his soon-to-become legendary sense of aggrievance.

    And if that happens, it will almost certainly be taken as still another entitled, elitist snub to the voters who chose Hillary. Which will likely depress his chances only further.

    He doesn't think he needs us (none / 0) (#82)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    until Obama takes some concrete action to dispel the impression caused by his claim that he is sure he'll get her voters.  Obama needs to take the intiative.  All we have so far are just words.  He will probably wait until it is almost too late as he did on Wright.  This time, he may wait too long.  In fact, it may be too late.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#96)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:55 AM EST
    both Hillary and Obama have said they are sure that the party will unite when asked. I thought his speech on Tuesday was reaching out to those that weren't sure of voting for him. I think he's taking those steps.

    Parent
    That's just words (none / 0) (#187)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:39:35 PM EST
    I need to see actions.

    Parent
    However (none / 0) (#192)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:42:24 PM EST
    what has Clinton's actions been to reassure Obama's supporters?

    She's starting to use the old "I have the White vote" argument. Is that unifying?

    Parent

    Clinton isn't the presumptive nominee (none / 0) (#197)
    by Manuel on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:49:01 PM EST
    The onus is on Obama to unify and lead the party.

    Parent
    She represents "Old Washington" to Obama (none / 0) (#92)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:26 AM EST
    he can't put her on the ticket or he will have to explain the hypocrisy.

    Parent
    No way this happens- (none / 0) (#76)
    by kenosharick on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:34:13 AM EST
    she needs to go back to the senate and start building for 2012, after Obama gets clobbered.

    I suspect she will do that (none / 0) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:52 AM EST
    but I have been wrong before.

    Parent
    or at the very least she should (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:43:40 AM EST
    do what Holy Joe did and retain her senate seat while running.
    I would be ok with that.
    but I dont think she should give up her senate seat.
    thats just me.


    Parent
    Sounds right to me (none / 0) (#87)
    by andgarden on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:40:14 AM EST
    Certainly it's better than any of Markos's absurd, anti-astute ideas for running mates.

    Agreed (none / 0) (#149)
    by spit on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:07:21 PM EST
    as a lefty, I'm going to laugh a special, bitter laugh when the "progressive" blogosphere starts really pushing for an Obama/Webb ticket.

    To be honest, in my eviler moments, I'd love to see the unity ticket just to watch the heads explode among the way-too-hardcore on both sides.

    Parent

    Really good point on Obama/Webb (none / 0) (#203)
    by shoephone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    A very unprogressive ticket indeed. Other than his criticism of the Iraq War, Webb's stands on issues are not progressive. And he long had a reputation as a sexist oaf before the "macaca moment" vaulted him to victory. I don't think this ticket would appeal to many pro-choice voters.

    Parent
    Obama/Clinton continues to (none / 0) (#89)
    by brodie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:40:31 AM EST
    be a No Sale for me.  

    And it's the one thing Pelosi has said in recent weeks that I agree with.  I suspect she was hinting at the fact these two aren't exactly best of friends, and old campaign antagonisms would likely come to the fore once in office.  Or perhaps she meant to reference Bill and how he and his opinions would be an awkward presence in an Obama/Hillary admin.

    The modern P-VP relationship just requires a solid, trusting working relationship, which I don't think O/C would be able to achieve.

    As for the fall campaign, I would expect Obama to continue with his so-far successful theme of a New Politics/Change that rejects the shopworn D.C. politics of old, and having HRC run with him would undercut that message at least as these things will be portrayed.

    Fortunately, there will be 3 months roughly until the convention for the nominee and the opponent to bury the hatchet and unite.  This lengthy positive period of healing, if all matters are basically settled like MI/FL, should result in Obama being far more flexible wrt running mate possibilities than he is now.  A lot of political ground can shift in those 3 months.

    JFK/LBJ (none / 0) (#111)
    by Chimster on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:47:28 AM EST
    These two candidates campaign's hated each other. But a unity ticket worked for them. This contest is much bigger than Hillary and Barrack. It's about the direction our country will be heading. There's no way they wouldn't get together. It fits perfectly into their plan of uniting the party and creating a warm fuzzy feeling before the GE.

    As for Pelosi, she can't seem to endorse Obama outright, so she plays the "Unity won't work" ticket to get her passive aggresive point across.

    Parent

    JFK/LBJ was an unintended (none / 0) (#130)
    by brodie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:56:29 AM EST
    accident -- Kennedy making a purely pro forma "offer" which he'd expected Lyndon wanted to have offered (true) but which he'd not understood that LBJ really wanted (to get out of the senate, where his power had already peaked, and to get lined up to succeed Kennedy, and his cruel calculations about "a fourth of presidents die in office").

    So, it's unclear to me at this early hour of the morning that Dems actually have a legit precedent for a younger, less experienced nominee to legitimately offer the VP spot to a much older and experienced fellow Dem.

    As for party unity, there are ways of achieving it short of a so-called Unity Ticket.

    As noted earlier, there will be 3 whole months in which to unite both wings of the party.  Much can be said magnanimously and graciously by both sides by which much healing can occur.  That done, come early/mid-August our nominee will be far better placed to have a number of options.  

    In fact, if such significant healing doesn't occur by then, it's unlikely picking HRC would be sufficient to do the trick.

    Parent

    Hate the idea of Obama/Clinton (none / 0) (#97)
    by Chimster on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:42:12 AM EST
    in that particular order. But, I hate the idea even more for McCain/Romney. Obama/Cinton is my second to last choice, but if it comes to that, I'd rather swallow hard and pull the lever for that ticket than another 4 years of the same old garbage (which will actually make our country even worse than it is now).

    i agree (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:59:12 AM EST
    i know it is a hard pill to swallow, as it would have been hard to swallow for Obama supporters if HIllary was the winner. To see the passion on both sides is both concerning yet encouraging. It shows they really care about the country this time around. I really can't see the rationale in voting for McCain, in any situation. I care too much about my kids' future to elect a president that threatens to continue Bush's policy. No matter how flawed the democrat is (both candidates are flawed), I will choose the democrat 10 times out of 10.

    To protect roe v wade, I would elect ANY democrat.

    Parent

    how about this unity ticket (none / 0) (#114)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:48:46 AM EST
    McCain/Clinton. Of course Clinton would never do that, and of course McCain would never do that, but it would be funny.

    Speaking for me (none / 0) (#117)
    by Chimster on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:20 AM EST
    It's not about Hillary or Obama. It's about taking a stand against the Democratic party if they throw Hillary supporters under the bus. If things keep progressing fairly and no one disenfranchises before they are supposed to, then I'll vote for him.

    Otherwise, my non-vote will not be against Obama, but rather the Democratic party itself.

    W.O.R.M. -> WHRM (none / 0) (#119)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:39 AM EST
    She will say that, but we know what she really means. Snark. Hey, if the Obama supporters can spend a year making up all sorts of things they think Obama is for not based on what he has said, so can we. :-)

    No way (none / 0) (#121)
    by nell on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:51:57 AM EST
    I could accept Clinton/Obama but NOT Obama/Clinton. It is just too insulting to women and to the challenges women face every single day in the work place to have the tougher, more experienced, older woman playing second fiddle to the younger, inexperienced man...she would be training her boss.

    No.

    hm (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:55:46 AM EST
    Why is there this notion that Clinton would be unfairly put in the number 2 spot? She is the number 2 candidate in this primary race. Whether or not she is experienced or not, she's losing the race.

    Insulting to women? So if the superdelegates gave the candidacy to Clinton, noone would be insulted that a black guy got their job taken away by the white person?

    Parent

    The MORE (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:06:29 PM EST
    qualified white person, the one who handles herself better under pressure (see all of the debates).

    One criticism of Dukakis was that his runningmate Bentsen was a whole lot more experienced than he was and made him look inferior.

    IMHO, the same would happen with an Obama/Clinton ticket.

    Not that such a ticket would happen, given that the goal of this election cycle is to purge the Democratic Party of all things Clinton (including her supporters).  That wll mean losing the election, but it's apparently a sacrifice they're willing to make.


    Parent

    hmm (none / 0) (#156)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:12:30 PM EST
    The debates were not Obama's game for sure. But he has shown to be quite cool and collected IN GENERAL throughout this primary season. There is one thing you have to give Obama.

    The goal of the election was not to purge all things Clinton. That is your view. His opponent was Hillary Clinton, is he supposed to kiss her feet at every stop?

    Parent

    Cool and collected? (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:17:03 PM EST
    Not in debates
    Not in press conferences or with any confrontational questions:  "I've already answered 8 questions already" and "Can't I just eat my waffles".

    Yeah, cool and collected, forehead slappingly so.

    Parent

    um (none / 0) (#169)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:22:25 PM EST
    Well maybe he should do as Clinton does and just give her patented cackling laugh as an answer?

    Parent
    ah, the hate finally comes out (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:26:52 PM EST
    I knew it wouldn't take you very long. Glad you're hear on this site to educate us all. Way to work for unity. Do you have a degree in that?

    Parent
    hate? (none / 0) (#178)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:30:23 PM EST
    Yes, I'm "hear" on this site.  I disagree with the post i replied to? Why is that hate? I believe that Hillary has also been guilty of not answering confrontational questions? I believe in being objective. Do you?

    Parent
    cackle = hate (none / 0) (#183)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:36:45 PM EST
    And you know it. And nice of you to make fun of a typo too. Kind of says it all doesn't it. Unity much.

    Parent
    you = tears (none / 0) (#191)
    by kcarab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:41:06 PM EST
    As opposed to you mocking me in terms of having a degree in educating?

    Yes it does kind of say it all.

    hypocrisy much?

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#181)
    by nell on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:32:52 PM EST
    I believe, and I think many women would agree, that she has not been given a fair shake by the press. The media has been biased against her from day one and had they vetted Obama early on, as they should have, a la Wright, Ayers, etc. and put as much scrutiny on him as they did on her, he would have been out of the race long ago. BTD argues that Obama is more electable because of the media, maybe he is right (though I don't agree yet), but don't think for one second that women across this country are not bitter and angry at the way she has been treated. It is sexism, pure sexism. And it would just add insult to injury to see the sexism that plays itself out in the workplace everyday, where the man gets the promotion for similarly shallow reasons, but the more experienced woman ends up playing second fiddle and training her boss.

    Parent
    Hmm (none / 0) (#134)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:00:09 PM EST
    I think you need to calm down frankly.

    I'm not thrilled (none / 0) (#136)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:00:45 PM EST
    at all with Hillary's own behavior toward people who won't support Obama.  She attributes our anger to "passion," rather than what it is for many of us, which is "principle".  I thumb my nose at her on that.

    Just as Kerry-Kennedy couldn't "bring" Massacusetts for Obama, we won't come around just because she says we should.  It's all really bigger than her now.  The Democrats are purging, if not us, than our ideals out of the party.  Thanks, Donna for at least being honest about it, but sorry, we're not taking it.

    So in the long run, maybe I'll be glad if neither win and we get someone even better in 2012, with all of these lessons having been learned.

    Yeah, and by 2012, Dean/Brazile will both be gone (none / 0) (#153)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:09:40 PM EST
    Or we can fervently hope so, anyway.  I suspect both of them will go down while rearranging the deck chairs on the good ship Obama 2008.

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#160)
    by ding7777 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:16:22 PM EST
    would want Hillary as VP so he could blame her when he loses the GE.

    Clinton wasted as VP (none / 0) (#163)
    by Sleeper on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM EST
    I think that while the VP has become far more influential a position over the past few decades (to say the least) that it would be a waste of Clinton's abilities to park her there.  Actually, I'm hoping once we resolve the nomination and, you know, actually sweep the elections, that Clinton might make a run to ease Harry Reid out as Majority Leader.  He's not done a stellar job in my opinion.

    Agreed (none / 0) (#194)
    by stillife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:46:34 PM EST
    I'd rather keep her as my Senator.

    Parent
    What about taking the 2 slot (none / 0) (#168)
    by davnee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:22:22 PM EST
    is breaking the ultimate glass ceiling?  

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#182)
    by Radix on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:34:22 PM EST
    It's simply a non starter. Most of Clinton's supporters will come on board once they have time to accept reality and get over their disappointment and the ones who don't will just get replaced with new voters.

    Of those that voted in the primary, Clinton received  at least 47.1% of the votes. So just what percentage of those do you think you can afford to loose, which will be made up by the new voters? Of course this assumes that all the new voters went for Obama.

    Because there are no facts, there is no truth, Just data to be manipulated

    Don Henley-The Garden of Allah

    Sebelius will "molify" HRC supporters? (none / 0) (#186)
    by shoephone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:38:51 PM EST
    That has to be the dumbest comment of the day. But thank you for patronizing us. We saw exactly how much appeal Sebelius has when she gave the Democratic response to the SOTU.

    snore.......

    Sebelius will molify no one. She is not in Clinton's league and I pity Obama the first time Sebelius particapates in a VP debate.

    If he really wants a woman on the ticket he would do well to choose Napolitano. She's governor of a western red state, and she got elected with public financing. Win-win.

    And I am not in favor of a unity ticket of Obama/Clinton. I don't believe the party can be healed. He is an amateur and she would not want to be tied to him and any of his coming disasters.

    It's not just having a woman (none / 0) (#200)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:58:36 PM EST
    We like Hillary - we don't want just ANY woman.  But think about this - when Hillary is the nominee, why don't we have Kwame Kilpatrick as her VP? /snark

    Parent
    napolitano is terrible (none / 0) (#227)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:59:43 PM EST
    see here.

    I'm not voting for her.

    Parent

    Napolitano is more conservative (none / 0) (#228)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:02:31 PM EST
    on immigration policy than McCain is!

    Parent
    Why should she save him? (none / 0) (#223)
    by MichaelGale on Thu May 08, 2008 at 04:59:04 PM EST
    Most ridiculous suggestion that I have ever heard.


    "unity ticket" (none / 0) (#229)
    by diogenes on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:51:22 PM EST
    Why should Obama have the Hillary and Bill drama show as his vice president?  She's not the easiest person to work with-why do you think that the Democrats in Congress don't support her?  And why hasn't Al Gore (who last tried to live on a "unity ticket" with Hillary and Bill and ended up screwed) supported her?

    You could just as easily ask (none / 0) (#230)
    by shoephone on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:40:20 PM EST
    why Gore isn't supporting Obama. He is smart to stay out of it.

    Parent
    Well, I agree about one thing... (none / 0) (#231)
    by Melchizedek on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:41:00 PM EST
    This surely is a dream ticket.