home

Hillary on Pledged Delegates and the Popular Vote

Hillary Clinton was on This Week with George Stephanopoulus this morning. I received a transcript from the show by e-mail. Here's what she had to say about pledged delegates and the popular vote.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Despite this record, Senator Obama getting more than 90 percent of the African-American vote. Perhaps that's to be expected. It's virtually impossible for you to overtake him now in the pledged delegates.

And a lot of people in the African-American community, including the third highest ranking member of the House, Jim Clyburn, say that, if you overturn the will of the pledged delegates, it is going to cause an irreparable breach with the African-American community. Isn't that a problem?

Hillary's answer is below:

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I think both Senator Obama and I have made it very clear that we will have a unified Democratic Party, going into the fall elections. I have said that I will work my heart out for him...

STEPHANOPOULOS: How is that possible...

CLINTON: Well, but...

STEPHANOPOULOS: ... if you overturn the will of the pledged delegates?

CLINTON: But George, I've said that I would work my heart out for him. He has said he would do the same for me. So we will unify.

There are a number of factors that people look at. We have delegates selected by millions of people in primaries and delegates selected by a few thousand people in caucuses. I'm ahead in the popular vote, if you include Florida and Michigan.

STEPHANOPOULOS: He wasn't on the ballot in Michigan.

CLINTON: Well, that was his choice. And his campaign and the other campaigns...

STEPHANOPOULOS: It was the rules of the DNC, though.

CLINTON: Well, but the rules said we shouldn't campaign. But there was nothing saying take your name off the ballot, and there was nothing saying that, eventually, we wouldn't give the voters, 2.3 million of them, in Florida and Michigan, 2.3 million of them, a chance to participate in the process.

The so-called automatic delegates -- they have to make up their minds based on who they think would be the best president and the best candidate to go up against John McCain. That is the process. So we're going to go through the next contest. And obviously, we're looking forward to Indiana and North Carolina. And then, when the process finishes in early June, people can look at all of the various factors and decide who would be the strongest candidate.

But I think there will be no doubt that, however this turns out, we're going to have a very strong campaign in the fall.

And I've often said that people who support me -- and they support me passionately -- and people who support Senator Obama and support him passionately -- they have much more in common than they do with Senator McCain and the Republicans.

< Obama Adviser: Obama Joined Wright's Church In Search Of His "Blackness" | Obama Camp's Past Predictions on Pledged Delegates, IN and NC >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Class act. n/t (5.00 / 10) (#1)
    by magisterludi on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:49:58 PM EST


    May I cling to my bitterness? (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:51:34 PM EST


    sure... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by white n az on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:07:58 PM EST
    because by self-identifying as one of the 'bitter' and 'clinging' people you are clearly one of the working class that never votes for Democrats anyway.

    Parent
    I'm not letting go. (5.00 / 10) (#11)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:14:31 PM EST
    I never acknowledged that Bush was my President and I'm damn well not going to accept Obama as my candidate if he wins without Florida and Michigan being fairly counted. I think they're underestimating how angry a lot of women are. They recognize that black American's will stay home if they perceive the election to be unfair, but they're so used to women being "good girls" and going along with the party line that they don't think we will actually stand up for what we believe. They're wrong.

    Parent
    Seconded. (5.00 / 9) (#25)
    by Lady in Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:38:56 PM EST
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: my vote is reserved for Hillary Clinton and ONLY Hillary Clinton in this election.  If she is not the nominee, I will write her in or I will not vote at all.  

    Even if she personally asked me, face-to-face, to support Obama, I would have to say no.  The treatment of her in this election has been too unfair, too hurtful for me, as a woman, to ignore.  I voted with my heart and my head for Hillary on Feb. 5.  My heart and my head are both telling me that even though I am aligned with Obama ideologically as a Democrat, I cannot and will not support him against McCain in November.

    I can only hope the Democratic elite will take notice of what will happen with not only blacks, but with women and working-class whites in general, depending on who they select as their nominee.  
     

    Parent

    Shocking. (1.00 / 10) (#45)
    by lilybart on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:14:08 PM EST
    If you can't see the danger of McCain as president through the veil of your tears over Hillary, then you should never vote again because you don't have the sense god gave a dog.

    Parent
    lilibark is barking (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by feet on earth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:18:02 PM EST
    Excuse me? (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:44:28 PM EST
    Let me explain something to you -- a McCain presidency is not "dangerous" to me -- actually, if I voted for my "self-interest" then I would always vote Republican -- because my income is in the tax bracket that gets the most "protection" when the GOP is in power.  My philosophy, however, is that a country should be judged not on how it treats its wealthiest members, but how it treats its poorest.  Additionally, I have voted Democrat my entire life because, as a woman, I believed (until this election) that the Democrats upheld women's rights.  I also believed (until this election) that the Democrats ensured that all people's votes counted. Two of my long held beliefs about the party have not been proven untrue -- so why should I be loyal to the party when the party has not been loyal to me? Why should give them my vote when the party is telling me they don't need my vote? Maybe, just maybe, I should start giving my vote to the party that wants it and respects it. Now, I'm not saying I will vote for McCain, but only I have the right to decide and I will not be bullied into giving my vote to anyone, especially not those who have continued to insult me during this primary process that if I don't vote the way they tell me to I "shouldn't be allowed to vote" & that I "don't have the sense god gave a dog."  So, don't preach to me about how "dangerous" a McCain presidency would be because, frankly, I'll be just fine if McCain is president. So, the Democratic party would do well to remember that.

    Parent
    You nailed my interests (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:41:56 PM EST
    Angie.  Actually, I should be Republican if I vote pocket-book.

    And this year's aggression toward women has hurt my feelings.  

    In a real way.

    I'm not entirely sure I'm going to get over it, either.

    Parent

    can you cite examples? (none / 0) (#140)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:47:35 PM EST
    aggression toward women has hurt my feelings.

    I feel that is an unfair accusation (presumably at Obama?)... just want to know what you mean...

    Parent

    Mostly my feelings were hurt by his supporters (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:57:47 PM EST
    such as the pundits on TV who have just boxed her ears constantly.

    The unfairness of the standards.

    The ridiculous arguments that deny that this race is close.

    The "allowance" that he gets to attack her character since Texas non-stop, while still pretending that she's the one who is negative.

    But, if I'm truly honest, I'd have to admit that it's the blogger world.

    They were so mean.

    I know I'm the one who kept diving in, so I really shouldn't complain.

    But they were just so mean.

    I "broke."

    I now want nothing to do with anyone who supports him.

    My son keeps saying, "It's the internet."

    But there's a part of me that doesn't believe that.

    I don't want to be a part of the mean group in life.

    Parent

    And Obama will change that? (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:37:20 PM EST
    How? He can't even get bills passed on his own. The Democratic Party does not magically confer leadership skills on it's representatives. George Bush (I) was a better President than Jimmy Carter, even though Jimmy Carter had better political ideas and better character. We've lived so long with Bush and Rove that it seems impossible that a Republican President could be anything but a disaster, but McCain, however right wing he may be, is not Bush. He has earned a reputation as a moderate because of a long line of decisions, not just because of good PR.

    The biggest issue I have with the Republican Party is abortion, and I hate McCains stances, but I can't show you one way that the Democratic Party has successfully held back the right in terms of abortion rights in the last 10 years. Functionally, we are almost back to pre Roe v. Wade conditions, where women in progressive states can get abortions and women in conservative states have to travel to get one (if they can afford it). Obama certainly gives me no reason to believe that he will make women's rights a priority in his administration. I won't vote for McCain, but I'm not going to be blackmailed into voting for a candidate I don't trust, either. I never thought I'd say that. I've been a Democrat for as long as I can remember. But that's the way it is.

    Parent

    Women feel alienated (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by lizpolaris on Mon May 05, 2008 at 05:24:25 AM EST
    by the Obama campaign and the Democratic party.  The level of misogyny displayed by all can scarcely be overstated.  Those of us who feel that way aren't likely to just join up with the denigrators.

    Just a few short years ago McCain was seen as a moderate.  He certainly still is among Republicans and I think among many Democrats as well.  While he may be hot tempered and buy into failed Republican economic policies too much, he's not the devil you're painting him to be.  For instance, it's a sure bet that US torture of prisoners would end the day after he took the oath of office.

    One thing he's got in common with Hillary Clinton is experience.  Sorry but Obama doesn't have it.  And if there's one thing I'm certain the country can't afford right now it's a bumbler in the White House, no matter how well intentioned.

    I'm with the previous poster - if Hillary's not the nominee, I'll be very tempted to not cast a presidential vote, write in Hillary, or even consider voting for McCain.

    Why would I vote for someone whose supporters insult me because I have tits, whose pastor insults me because of my color, and who personally insults my family because of our working class background?

    Parent

    that should read (none / 0) (#74)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:47:29 PM EST
    "Two of my long held beliefs about the Democratic party have now been proven untrue" -- not, "not."

    Parent
    No, actually I will not (none / 0) (#93)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:43 PM EST
    All my family & friends are in the same economic category as myself -- heck, all the men in my family vote GOP.  It is the women in my family (all of us with at least master's degrees) that vote Democrat for the same reasons I've listed for myself.  I know the GOP wants my vote because they have never told me, as the Democratic party has "that they don't need it."  If you all don't care about me (and you have shown me that you do not by saying if I don't vote the way you want me to, I "don't have the sense god gave a dog" -- I haven't seen you respond to that one) then I can stop caring about you. I'll feel bad, sure, but I will still be able to pay for my kid's college & I will still be able to fill my tank with gas. In fact, given that I do bankruptcy law my business will BOOM with McCain as president. So, yes, we "all" will not be fine, but I will.  And that is the bottom line that this primary has taught me -- that I should only care about myself because the DNC certainly does not care about me -- someone who has supported them financially, with volunteering and with voting.

    Parent
    Give it up, push pol (none / 0) (#115)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:49:03 PM EST
    I'm a "latte liberal" who hasn't been sold on Obama yet -- you certainly aren't going to sell him to me now. And again -- I'm not being blackmailed into voting for anyone -- if Obama gets the nomination without FL & MI participating fully, then I doubt very seriously he can get my vote.

    Parent
    You are right, I'm not (none / 0) (#156)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:54:35 PM EST
    a Democrat -- the same way Hillary isn't.

    Parent
    I've told DNC the same (none / 0) (#176)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:45:48 AM EST
    All the tv news shows emphasize the groups that will leave if Obama loses.  Not one of them has the sense to explore, despite exit-polling which shows alarming results, what would happen if Florida and Michigan were not allowed to revote or be counted despite arbitrary and stupid rules by Dean and steadfast opposition of Obama fearing the votes affecting his numbers.

      The rules even provide for modifications in case of known reasons such as Republican legislatures deciding on the dates and refusing to allow date-changes to Feb 5, but Dean stands adamant because he and Pelosi know that without Florida and Michigan Obama will win.  Those are interior problems which cause Pelosi and him to HOPE for and ENCOURAGE a situation which will cause us to LOSE in Florida and Michigan in the fall.  

      Why would anyone care to be a part of such a ridiculous mindset of a party.  I've been a member since 1960, and I'm about to go Independent if Florida and Michigan are kept out or split 50-50 as is being proposed by cowards without principle.  And I've told DNC that and asked them to remove me from any more letters asking for money.  

      The superdelegates and reporters are missing something big and awful here - we are talking about about a 25% or more
    loss of the most loyal supporters and voters they've had who have voted the full ticket as a rule vs the new voters who were shown in Texas to have scant interest in the lower part of the ballot.

      They'll find out the hard way.  I have to vote FOR someone.  I won't be voting for McCain, but if the Dem party insists on operating as they have been, there's no way I will stay with it.

      I plan to stay with them long enough to vote for the lower ticket but many are planning not to do that.

      They've taken long-time party members who happen to be "not new" for granted and stupid acts by them will result in a fiasco in November.  They should study the voting trends more and pay attention IF they want to win.  Word has been, as stated on some analyses shows, that DNC people have said privately they know we'll be slaughtered in November but better that than alienating a bloc of voters and the new people coming in.  

      They really should use their brains a bit more and show us what IS important about what happens against McCain.  It's not an easy choice, but at least allow Florida and Michigan to be counted for all the reasons already given, or live with the results of true idiocy in disregard for the voters.

    Parent

    You still haven't answered the question (none / 0) (#157)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:58:13 PM EST
    How will an Obama administration be different than a McCain administration?

    Parent
    women's rights? (none / 0) (#96)
    by lilybart on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:26:00 PM EST
    No one is saying that a woman should not be president, not any Obama supporter I know or have ever heard. and no one should have to vote for someone just because they share a gender or a race? This has nothing to do with gender issues.

    Far right courts are never good for women's rights, by the way, and that is what we get with McCain.

    Parent

    Don't pretend (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:44:32 PM EST
    an attack on one woman is an attack on all women & the DNC has stood silently by while sexist attacks by the Obama camp and the msm have run rampant. Also, the "courts" argument doesn't scare me because guess what? I have the $ and the education not to have to worry about that. Don't you get it? You can't blackmail me into voting for anyone that I don't want to vote for. I am lucky enough to get to vote for whomever I want. And if Obama gets the nomination without FL & MI playing a meaningful role in the process, then the rest of you the Democratic party can kiss my support (financial and otherwise) good bye.

    Parent
    Nice of you to care about other people! (none / 0) (#148)
    by lilybart on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:19:49 PM EST
    So for you , the world is YOU? You don't care what conservative courts will do to women without means? To people caught in justice system abuses? to people harmed by corporations?

    Nope. it's all about you and you don't get your favorite candidate, then everyone else can just suffer because you are rich and don't care.

    Is that about it?

    Parent

    Can you read? (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:04:56 PM EST
    I said quite clearly several times that I have voted against my own financial interest my entire life because I care about others. But, if the DNC gives Obama the nomination without allowing FL & MI to participate fully in the process, then the DNC is showing that they only care about themselves and not about me. Time and again, the arguments Obama & his supporters make as to why the nomination is "his" show me that the only thing they care about is themselves. So why is it up to me to care about others when everyone else seems to only care about themselves and not give two shakes about me? Sorry, I'm done being a sucker -- when people show me they don't care about me, I'm done caring about them.

    Parent
    My vote IS all about me and what I believe in (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Ellie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:47:12 PM EST
    I'll tell you, unequivocally and off the top of my head, two people my vote is NOT about:

    1. You
    2. Obama

    The Dems had plenty of opportunities to stand agaist the Bush era stacking of the courts, the DOJ and the Supreme Court with right wing ringers.

    This attempt to lay guilt, shame and blame for being targets of political weasels -- right and left -- on women is disgusting. Let's see Obama's record and actions affirmatively standing up to this persecution.

    Let's compare that to his run headlong into the persecutors in the name of "Unity". I call it pandering.

    Parent

    Still barking? (none / 0) (#162)
    by feet on earth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:35:05 PM EST
    Angie - this is BS (none / 0) (#159)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:15:10 PM EST
    Angie, are you for real? You think he has  been making sexist attacks?  I think you are reaching here. This guy has grown up surrounded by women. My former Torts professor is a very good fiend of his. I think your accusations are way off base.  You did say you were a lawyer, correct?


    Parent
    It isn't BS (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by angie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:39:56 PM EST
    I have heard Obama say, with my own ears, that Hillary's experiences as first lady was nothing more then having tea with world leaders -- that is sexist. I have heard him say that when she's feeling down she goes on the attack -- sexist. I have heard him say that Hillary's "claws are coming out" -- sexist. Now, if you don't understand how those are sexist statements, I'm not going to explain them to you.  And I don't care about your friend of a friend who "knows him" -- that means bupkiss to me -- I'm sure he is a "nice guy" but plenty of "nice guys" are also sexist -- and the bs about his being "raised surrounded by women" as proof he isn't sexist compared to the actual statements he has made in this race doesn't hold water -- everyone has a mother, doesn't mean there is not sexism in the world.  

    Parent
    You are new here (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:27:37 PM EST
    I would suggest you do a search and see the numerous posts on this topic.

    You did say you were a lawyer, correct?

    That is rude. Knock off the condescending attitude.

    Parent

    Right, Obama types tend to be rude to others (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 01:54:41 AM EST
    I'm sick of reading the rude replies to others from Obama types on HuffPost, DailyKos, TPM, Americablog and don't care to see them here where people have been more civil, thanks to Jeralyn and BTD.  These rude and disdainful notes are escalating even here as NC and Indiana primaries near.  It's all about constantly pushing others who don't feel as they do.   Jeralyn doesn't allow people to do that to Obama supporters, but they are so used to it, their entries here are like that.

      Even more than Obama's various dishonesties (look that up on the Net, easy to find) the constant attacks on Hillary and her supporters of the moment by vociferous Obama supporters hurt Obama himself more than anything else.  There have been times I've told myself that I should overlook many things and vote for him in November if that's needed, but people like those posting here today remind me why I want nothing like what I see of the people behind him, in power.  I thought Republicans were disdainful, but they  have nothing on Obama supporters.

    Parent

    Amen . n/t (none / 0) (#133)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:37:26 PM EST
    good; vote Republican; bye! (none / 0) (#175)
    by seesdifferent on Mon May 05, 2008 at 12:57:30 AM EST
    they deserve you.

    Parent
    back off (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by kimsaw on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:16:36 PM EST
    As I've said before everyone owns their vote. Stop telling people who they should vote for. Your sarcastic fear mongering about McCain is just as bad as the Republicans playing the terror card against Kerry. It may work but it's not a hopey changey new kind of politics now is it.

    Frankly I'm tired of people telling others how they should vote. Each person has to live with their own conscience and I could not in good faith vote for the better of lesser candidates. This isn't a Miss America contest, this is about the leader of our country.

    Even though Clinton presses that we should support who ever is the Dem's nominee, I will not. If she's not it I'm writing in her name.

    I'm an independent beholding to no party and I'm proud of it. Candidates have to prove themselves to me Obama and McCain have failed and neither party has earned my respect or my trust.This cycle the Dems have proven they can't even run an election with clarity and fairness.

    Obama's campaign strategies have proven that he is not a core constituent in his own party. I'm no more afraid of McCain than Obama, either way if Clinton is not in the mix the nation loses.

    Parent

    I concur (none / 0) (#134)
    by 0 politico on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:39:31 PM EST
    with your comments.

    No one should be bullied into making a vote or supporting a candidate they do not feel they should support.  Regardless of party affiliation (or not).

    Parent

    Insulting again (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Marvin42 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:23:56 PM EST
    Can you try posting anything without insulting people?

    Parent
    woof woof (none / 0) (#69)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:40:42 PM EST
    My intellect (none / 0) (#131)
    by Lady in Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:33:00 PM EST
    is much greater than you make it out to be, otherwise I wouldn't have the ability to post here.  

    I hold Democratic ideals, but that does not mean I have to be loyal to the Democratic Party.

    I do not trust Barack Obama, and I have serious reservations about his inexperience, his arrogance, and the disconnect he has with many Americans.  That is the way I feel, and I believe more people than you know feel the same way.  

    If you want to resort to name-calling and label me as a "dog" because of my opinions, then fine.  My tail is happily wagging.  


    Parent

    There are more women than men (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:46:14 PM EST
    in the US. If we all write in Hillary, if she doesn't get the nomination, she will win anyway. Imagine the headlines the day after the election--
    "America's women roar, and write-in Hillary Clinton by a landslide."
    Ok, that's the headline and the first part of the article..but wouldn't that be great?!?!?

    The census page says there are 5 million or so more of us than men. And I am sure more men have died than women since 2000, they just don't live as long.  So let's start a national underground movement to write her in if the SDs lose their minds and decide Obama is more electable. We can do it, telephone trees, email trees, the whole ball of wax that we have used for years to organize the kiddies and their activities. We can use it to organize ourselves a President.

    Just an idea..heh.

    Parent

    I'll try again (none / 0) (#125)
    by chopper on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:12:00 PM EST
    Thanks, sent and signed.. (none / 0) (#153)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:38:07 PM EST
    and with an angry note about their treatment of me as a voter and of Hillary as a candidate.

    Parent
    Sign petition & comment (none / 0) (#124)
    by chopper on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:11:05 PM EST
    Please go here to sign the petition for FL & MI voters to be heard and leave a comment...



    Parent

    Whose fault is it? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:15:50 PM EST
    How is Michigan and Florida Obama's fault?

    As far as I read it, Obama and Edwards and other candidates played by the DNC rules and didn't campaign in these States?

    How is playing by the rules a knock on women?

    Parent

    Hillary did not campaign (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:41:15 PM EST
    in those states.  Obama had ads and a fund raiser in Florida.  He only took his name off of the Michigan ballot because he knew he was not going to win.  He urged his supporters to vote undecided (as did Edwards).  So who exactly broke the rules?

    Parent
    He blocked the re-votes (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    They decided, for whatever reasons, to allow the revotes to occur only if both campaigns agreed on the rules. He wouldn't agree. A revote would have been fair. He played by the letter of the rules, but not by the spirit, which says that every vote has to count, even if they aren't likely to go in your favor. This isn't a knock on women. The only reason this is about women is that the Democratic Party seems to be taking us for granted, assuming that we will toe the line and vote for Obama no matter what.  Nobody wants to be taken for granted.

    Parent
    Yes, but are you religious? (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by oculus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:54:39 PM EST
    If so, you are keeping it under wraps here!

    Parent
    Hillary, my Energizer Bunny Candidate (5.00 / 13) (#3)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:55:29 PM EST
    can always be depended upon to respond in a sensible and thorough manner to "gotcha" questions.  

    Don't hate me for invoking Joe Scarborough, but the other day, after her O'Reilly interview, Joe said that she's the strongest Dem candidate he's seen in years - and she just keeps getting better and better.  He still thinks the numbers are stacked against her, but she's at the top of her game.    

    That's our girl! (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by Kathy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:17:14 PM EST
    I quoted this elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating, mostly to humiliate BTD because HE'S SIMPATICO WITH NEWT GINGRICH  hahahaha!

    Anyway, Gingrich was asked in Time who was the most electable dem against McCain, and this is what he said:

    "I think...Clinton has a lower ceiling and a higher floor.  She probably can't get much above 53-54%...and she probably can't drop much below 47%....Obama is the bigger gamble for the dems.  He could be a unifying national leader.  He could collapse as well."

    So, dems: win with Clinton or roll the dice with Obama.  Why is this even a question?

    Parent

    Clinton is more polarizing (none / 0) (#130)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:27:30 PM EST
    In answer to your question,

    The polls are never static. If the election was today, yes, a HRC win could happen. However, Obama has been vetted during this process.

    HRC has not been and she would be. The Republican Party  will attack her on a multitude of her own mistatements and dispute her claims of experience [see failed health plan here, Ireland, Bosnia] in the White House.

    No one told her to talk about ducking under sniper fire. And no one told her to provoke a foreign country with a nuculear threat when she is in second place in the nomination process.

    The Republican Party will say HRC feels she is entitled. In addition they will attack her questionable associations with past business associates.  


    Parent

    On the other hand (none / 0) (#136)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:45:31 PM EST
    HRC has been attacked for YEARS.  She failed at health care..McCain failed at campaign reform (or have those special interest group ads stopped running?)
    100 yrs, shia vs sunni, war for oil...there is plenty to beat back McCain if they go that route.
    On the other hand, Obama has lost his luster, and he can't run on judgment, not anymore.

    Parent
    and (none / 0) (#138)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:46:22 PM EST
    the entitlement line works just as well for McCain
    and  the questionable associates?  Keating Five anyone?

    Parent
    Hillary vs McCain (none / 0) (#139)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:47:22 PM EST
    will be more about policy differences than anything else IMHO.

    If Obama runs...well what exact policy is he going to run on?

    Parent

    as usual (none / 0) (#171)
    by Kathy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:44:55 PM EST
    If Obama runs...well what exact policy is he going to run on?

    He'd run on Clinton's.

    Though, I think our girl has this thing locked up by Tuesday, so it won't even be an issue.

    Parent

    actually, that's precisely what obama and his (none / 0) (#191)
    by kangeroo on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:54:57 AM EST
    supporters have been doing this entire campaign--and she's STILL gaining on him.  they've done worse things to her, in fact.  nothing new, yawn.

    Parent
    exactly! bingo. (none / 0) (#190)
    by kangeroo on Mon May 05, 2008 at 10:52:01 AM EST
    but contrary to obamablog cw, i don't think obama has a higher ceiling.  at least as of now, i think he has a lower ceiling than clinton's and a far, FAR lower floor.

    Parent
    I'm actually staying up (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by facta non verba on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:21:47 PM EST
    until 4AM (I live on the West Coast) 2-3x weekly just to watch Morning Joe. I work for myself so I can work while I wait.

    Joe Scarborough has really impressed me. He talks as someone who has actually run for office and served in Congress. His insights have been amazing. Now, he thinks the Reverend Wright saga is over and it won't be a factor going forward at least in the primary. But he is openly pro-Hillary calling her "my girlfriend" or "my gal" and saying he's amazed by her knowledge and her fighting spirit. He also says Clinton connects with the working class in a way that Obama never can or will. It's not just about economics but values. And people still vote with their values and that's something Obama is going to have a hard time overcoming come November. Not impossible but hard.

    Parent

    I've started watching (none / 0) (#85)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:02:34 PM EST
    Morning Joe in the a.m.  (I live in NYC).  Like you, I enjoy Joe's commentary not only b/c he supports Hillary but b/c he has the perspective of someone who's actually run for office.  This past week, he praised her as a "political athlete" who's at the top of her game.  

    I know journalists will turn on a dime, but I noted that on Hardball recently, Joe corrected somebody who referred to him as a Republican.  Maybe Hillary has converted him!  

    I have to admit I got an evil chuckle out of his imitation of Obama's "faculty lounge" persona.  And i notice that he's even gotten Mika to tone down her Obama fangurl act.

    Parent

    Why Hillary agreed to the Steph interview this (none / 0) (#39)
    by bridget on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:05:55 PM EST
    Sunday two days before IN and NH I don't understand.   I doubt it helps her. Hope I am wrong.

    I didn't see it but I always expect the worst from GS re the Clintons. While Russert helps Obama to look good and Obama knows and expects it, Steph does the opposite for HC. Someone posted on Mydd that he was more confrontational than O'Reilly.

    I am v. biased what Steph is concerned and wish the Clintons had never talked to him again after he stabbed them in the back. I guess thats why I could never run for Prez. Scarborough got it right, Hillary is the strongest Dem candidate in years. IMO since ... well, Bill.  

    Parent

    Because (none / 0) (#54)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:20:55 PM EST
    she has the right stuff.

    Parent
    It's a good media op, but he had his agenda (none / 0) (#57)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:21:27 PM EST
    as I could see, to argue against the widespread squawking that he had been on her side in the ABC debate.  So I appreciate this transcript of this answer, as I could hardly follow what she said amid all of Steph's interruptions today.  Actually, it was after this exchange that I simply turned it off, hard as it always is to get anything out of such squawk-radio style.

    Steph and others:  If I tune in, it is to hear what your guests have to say.  The more that you turn me off with this style, the less often that I will tune in at all.  I'm not going to watch his show again soon.

    Parent

    She is being very smart when she talks to (none / 0) (#80)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:58:13 PM EST
    George. She is showing that she can deal intelligently and calmly with questions she must know are designed to bring her down and that she can talk civilly to someone who hasn't given her the same courtesy. If she can deal with a back-stabber like li'l George, then she won't have problems bringing Republicans and Democrats together on important issues. She is showing that she is a master politician who doesn't get rattled when attacked.

    Unlike Obama who can't answer a policy question properly to save his life, and who whines about how the Rev. Wright media reaction rattled him. I mean, come on!! If that rattled him, he sure as hell isn't ready for prime time. McCain will take him apart. Hillary will face McCain down and beat him on policy and plans. Obama will whine and talk about himself.

    Parent

    I do agree with all the points you make (none / 0) (#92)
    by bridget on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:18 PM EST
    and hopefully most of the viewers will look at it the same way.

    No doubt in my mind that Hillary will beat McCain in every debate.

    Parent

    rattling (none / 0) (#141)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:51:30 PM EST
    Hm.. I disagree FLaDemFem. first of all - I do not think Obama "whines".

    Second, Charles Rangel  [ an HRC supporter] said  
    "If we've got to get into the Jerry Falwells and to the [Pat] Robertsons and to the number of people that have what appears to other religions to be bizarre beliefs, we'll never get to the issues that America is concerned about."
    It's fear mongering at its best. Any person with two legs knows that.

    I think Obama was rattled because talking about a pastor, who was not his mentor, and just his pastor, during a Presidential race, cheats the American people chances of measuring the issues.
    I think he is over that now.

    Third, on Policy: According to economists and the Obama camp, a gas tax holiday equals : small individual benefits(30 dollars), loss of collective jobs, a possible hike in gas overall, and more votes (supposedly) for HRC due to her (supposed) pandering.

    I have no idea how she connects waiving a federal gas tax that brings jobs and helps  to build roads and bridges with "willingness to take on gas companies."  THEY ARE NOT CONNECTED.  She's not cutting one penny from gas company profits. This is plain smoke and mirrors.

    Obama has done this before, and his experience  in the State Senate (before he was in the US senate) shows it doesn't work.

    What is her experience?  She thumbs at the economists. She wants people to know she feels for them. There is no rational application here. If there is more here, please tell me. This tax thing will hurt her, because it is a bad choice.

    Moreover, Obama is attacking HRC on issues such as 1)not apologizing for voting on the Iraq War, as Edwards, Kerry and others have and 2) Forcing poor people to pay for Health care and penalizing them if they cant afford it. However Obama is staying away from personal attacks on her that he thinks will hurt the party. Call it goodwill, naive or whatever. But I'd rather have that than another version of bully bush.

      HRC waxes poetic about how Obama belittled voters by saying they are bitter or they cling. Obama apologized for using inappropriate phrasing. However the build up of the inappropriate phrasing was given far more press than HRC's NAFTA reversal or her aggregious Bosnia mistatement. The press will have more time for her if she should somehow manage to get the nomination.

    Parent

    So when is Obama going to start talking (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:19:20 PM EST
    about his policies in more than vague generalities? He attacks, and misleads people about, Hillary's plans, but never counters with anything of his own that is substantiative. His comments after the last debate were tantamount to whining. His supporters, and endorsers, continually call for Hillary to drop out. He says nothing when his supporters BOO her. He is a small man. A very small man. He is just tall physically. Not any other way. I don't like him, I think he is a phony, I think he is not ready for the job of President, and I think that electing him would be the worst thing this country could do. It would absolutely prove to the rest of the world that the United States cannot find a competent, qualified President. Well, they can, they just don't elect them. They go with the guy with charisma, or that you want to have a beer with. Yeah, Obama in the White House would be the worst thing that could happen to this country. I am sorry you aren't bright enough to see that. I really am.

    Parent
    But then Scarborough (none / 0) (#46)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:14:23 PM EST
    went on to say there is no way Hillary can get the nomination.  It is the MSNBC mantra.

    Parent
    Stop watching (none / 0) (#51)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:18:12 PM EST
    MSNBC is only one of many channels. Until they can find an unbiased commentator who reports the news rather than making it up, they should have to live with low ratings and minimal earnings capabilities.

    Parent
    I like to watch (none / 0) (#56)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:21:25 PM EST
    Scarborough & Buchanan.  Especially in Buchanan's case, it's a window into what some on the right are thinking.  And, I think Buchanan truly calls them as he sees them.  He has called Obama out on Rev. Wright, and he opposed the Iraq War from the outset.  

    Parent
    Same here (none / 0) (#77)
    by stillife on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:50:35 PM EST
    Best TV commentary on this election has come from conservatives, IMO.  Plus, I find Scarborough's admiration of Hillary rather endearing.  

    Parent
    Chance to participate (5.00 / 8) (#4)
    by blogtopus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 12:59:54 PM EST
    CLINTON: Well, but the rules said we shouldn't campaign. But there was nothing saying take your name off the ballot, and there was nothing saying that, eventually, we wouldn't give the voters, 2.3 million of them, in Florida and Michigan, 2.3 million of them, a chance to participate in the process.

    That was good phrasing. If Obama were to say split them 50/50, that's not participation. If the delegates are seated only after the nomination is done, that's not participation. Only if their votes are counted can it be said they participated in selecting the nominee.

    Delegates only (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:10:23 PM EST
    from all I've read, the punishment for the early primary was in the pledged delegates. The votes were to be counted, and the superdelegates would not be impacted.

    It is Howard Dean's responsibility to make sure the agreement is understood and followed.  He either doesn't understand them, himself, or he doesn't like the truth that would be exposed if he explained these rules.


    Parent

    Um... Hillary is talking about the Dems (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by derridog on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:19:39 PM EST
    in Florida and Michigan being able to participate. You are mixing apples and oranges here.  Yes, the CANDIDATES were not supposed to campaign or participate.  But, if leaving your name on the ballot is participating, then Obama also did that in Florida. If he was such a purist, he would have taken if off there too, but he didn't because then he wouldn't be on the ballot in November, acc. to Florida rules.  Obama also campaigned in Florida, as he ran national ads in that state prior to its primary.  Hillary did NOT do that.  The names of all the candidates were on the ballot in Florida and 1.7 million people ( a record number) came out to vote and she won.  In Michigan she also won.  Obama was telling people to vote uncommitted, which they had the opportunity to do. Instead, a majority of the Michigan people decided to vote for her instead.  The uncommitted voters in Michigan, however, included people who wanted Edwards, who also took his name off the ballot.   So, if Obama gets all the uncommitted voters in that state, he is getting more than those who voted for him already.  

     In addition, he is the one who squelched having a revote in both states. He can't have it both ways, disenfranchising millions of people because he wasn't on the ballot and then refusing to have a revote where he IS on the ballot,  just so he can win.  If you think that is fair, just imagine if the situation were reversed and Obama had won those states and Hillary was being the obstructionist.   Right.

    You really need to inform yourself about the facts.

    Parent

    John Conyers (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:50:07 PM EST
    ran radio ads in Detroit urging people to vote Uncommitted.  The ad said that to vote for Obama, vote Uncommitted.

    Probably not a violation of the agreement because it wasn't the Obama campaign, but to say there was no Obama campaign is not correct.

    It should also be understood that the G rated version of removing himself from the ballot is just that, G rated.  He took himself off the ballot to taint a probable Clinton victory.

    Inasmuch as fair is concerned, the entire process is not fair.  As long as public caucuses are mixed in with primaries the process is not fair. As long as caucuses prohibit private voting and invoke the 15% viability rule they are not fair.  As long as caucuses can be a scene dominated by a mob the process is not fair.

    It's also not fair that New Hampshire is always awarded the first primary. It's not fair that a small state has a disproportionate influence on selecting the nominee.

    It's not fair to the nation that a candidate of meager experience and questionable accomplishments can get traction in a small state and become a major candidate of little real merit.

    Parent

    Obama also came to FL to do (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:01:30 PM EST
    some fundraising before the primary and addressed the media afterwards. Not an official campaign stop, I am sure, but still..very close to the line.

    Parent
    Actually it was against the pledge to not campaign (none / 0) (#100)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:30:23 PM EST
    And one of the reporters mentioned that this was against the pledge (no interviews was expressly in the pledge) and that is when Obama threw a little "hissy" fit and stopped the interview.

    Parent
    Well. since he can't play by the rules, (none / 0) (#112)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:46:07 PM EST
    why is he so insistent on their being followed by everyone else?? I think that since he campaigned in FL, after pledging not to, that he should forfeit the FL delegates he got. Of course, the DNC won't notice his breaking the rules. It's ok if you are Obama.

    Parent
    The 'pundits' miss everything they want to (none / 0) (#179)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:12:38 AM EST
    Such as Obama running tv ads there several times a day for a couple of weeks before the Florida primary.  He was the only one to do that.  They were part of a national ad bundle.  Smart guy in that regard.

      He also did that impromptu press conference, crossing the street to meet reporters, which has been noted, and that was disallowed by rules so he stopped after being reminded.  They each did about 15 fund-raisers, as these were allowed, and one debate.

      There is one thing known:  Obama and his supporters fear the impact of that Florida vote despite his having been the only one to campaign there, in two ways.

      He did himself ask Michigan voters to vote for Uncommitted, and for that I feel he deserves those votes, since he asked  for that (as did his campaign) and Edwards didn't.

      But he and his campaign are not interested in fairness here, because he fears the voting not going entirely for him, even in a revote, which he was the only one to turn down in Michigan.  

    Parent

    But remember (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by DJ on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:54:23 PM EST
    that is how he plays.  Kick everyone off the ballot but me, Run practically unopposed.  Oh and don't count those voters who didn't vote for me.

    Parent
    Exactly. His favorite thing is No Opposition (none / 0) (#180)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:14:23 AM EST
    Knock the other person out of the race so he doesn't have to run against anyone.  That's been his entire history.

      When he finally faced a candidate it was Alan Keyes.  Lucky Obama.  Not so lucky these days.  This candidate doesn't just jump off as he wants.

    Parent

    derridog - you're kidding right (none / 0) (#152)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:36:15 PM EST
    derridog writes
    "But, if leaving your name on the ballot is participating, then Obama also did that in Florida. If he was such a purist, he would have taken if off there too, but he didn't because then he wouldn't be on the ballot in November, acc. to Florida rules."

    Your evaluation of what a "purist" is, or what a "purist" should be, is ludicrous but very funny.

    Why would he not be a purist and leave his name off the ballot in Florida. Simple. Because like you said,  then according to Florida rules, [the same rules that gave us Bush instead of Gore],  he wouldn't be on the ballot in November Presidential election. He's smarter than that.

    Derridog writes
    "In addition, he is the one who squelched having a revote in both states. "

    No. No. No. wrong. Each side had terms, the states had terms, the DNC had terms. You need to check your facts. One side, or multiple sides disagreeing with each other on how to proceed, does not equal one party being entirely at fault. It is misleading of you to characterize it in this way, and most people see through it.

    Derridog writes
    "If you think that is fair, just imagine if the situation were reversed and Obama had won those states and Hillary was being the obstructionist."

    Why Imagine? It didn't happen. This is pure subjective speculation.  Or maybe? Oh , you mean like when Gore needed help in 2000 and the Clintons did what?

    Parent

    PushPol, I disagree with your loose interpretation (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by lookoverthere on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:21:02 PM EST
    of "participate." There was absolutely no requirement that any candidate remove his or her name from the ballot.

    BTW, Jeralyn blogged about this in early March.

    Parent

    You have said this before and were told (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:24:31 PM EST
    before the same things you will see now, so stop wasting bandwidth on this blog until you come up with a stock comment that also includes why Obama then, by your definition (and not the definition of the pledge, which was quite detailed about this), broke your roolz and was on the Florida ballot.  And, even by the pledge roolz, did campaign there.

    Parent
    Fyi, see the "comment policy" (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:58:20 PM EST
    i.e.:    "Bandwidth is expensive. The comment space is reserved for comments that relate to the topic of the post . You may not reprint lengthy text from your own works or those of others, including news articles. You may quote one or two short paragraphs and link to them. . . ." and
    "TalkLeft will limit commenters to four comments a day if, in its sole discretion, the commenter is a 'chatterer,' loosely defined as one who both holds opposing views from those expressed by TalkLeft and posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread; or posts numerous times a day and insults or calls other commenters names or repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters."  And there is more good reading there.

    Parent
    It was a (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:12:30 PM EST
    wholesale violation of the rules to levy  penalties without a hearing.

    It was an extraordinary step to level the death penalty when the rules recommend a 50% penalty.

    It was a violation of rules to penalize Michigan and Florida without also penalizing New Hampshire, Iowa and South Carolina.

    If you're so particular about the rules (the whole damn thing was straight out of a grade school playground) then why is it "silly" to point out that Obama did in fact run cable TV ads in Florida. That was a violation of the Rules.

    And yes, the WISE thing to do is to count Michigan and Florida 100% as is in lieu of risking the possible loss of both states.

    I suppose you believe that Obama deserves to win after refusing to agree to a sensible solution.

    It's certainly not like awarding an extra 500 votes to caucus states or changing to winner take all or whatever silly comparison you wish to make.

    It's about recognizing the commitment of 2.3 million people who went to the polls and voted.

    It's criminally stupid to simply throw out the people who are needed to win their respective states.

    Parent

    Small national ad buy??? (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by IzikLA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:50:18 PM EST
    Well, that very statement contradicts itself.  And, unless I'm mistaken, some of those national buys were for the Superbowl.  Hardly "rather small".

    Parent
    His Fla ads ran before the Fla primary (none / 0) (#181)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:16:58 AM EST
    That is known.

    Parent
    Florida DEMS (none / 0) (#44)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:12:58 PM EST
    Did not move up the date of their own accord. The Republican legislature forced this on them, and the DNC Rules/By-Laws Committee action played right into the Republicans' hands.

    Parent
    I thought they had no choice (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:42:03 PM EST
    It is my understanding that the legislation would have passed without Dem votes, and that the Dems had no choice because the Republicans attached to the bill important voting [machine] reform legislation.  

    Parent
    The Rs attached... (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by NWHiker on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:33:09 PM EST
    ... the "paper trail" rules to the primary date vote, iirc. Voting against the package would be interpreted at taking a stand again -in Florida!- a paper trail on ballots.

    No real choice for the legislators.

    And if "participate" meant "taking your name off the ballot" then it should have said exactly that. Obama took his off strategically, it probably helped him in Iowa and NH.

    Parent

    They supported the bill NOT the amendment. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    They supported the bill to ensure a paper trail for votes. The amendment to change the primary date was a "poison pill" attached to the bill by the Republicans because they knew the Dems wouldn't vote against a bill to guarantee a paper trail for votes. The Dems supported the bill, NOT the amendment.

    Parent
    That's not what happened. (none / 0) (#170)
    by jccamp on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:15:42 PM EST
    The original bill in the Fla House (including the new primary dates) was sponsored by 2 Republicans. It passed out of 2 different committees on  unanimous votes, including every Democrat on both committees. When the House bill hit the floor, 6 or 7 Democratic Representatives joined as co-sponsors.

    There was a nearly identical bill in the Fla Senate, but without the moved-up primary dates. The Amendment to the Senate bill adding the revised dates was introduced by a Democrat to reconcile the two versions. When the revised bill was considered, only one House Democrat voted against the bill. In the Senate, only 2.

    This measure as passed was popular across party lines. Both parties wanted to gain some significance for their respective primaries by moving up the date (ironically not realizing that this year, later primaries would count for more). Neither considered that the national parties would actually sanction a state as large and important as Florida.

    To claim that the evil Republicans forced this on the protesting Democrats in the Florida Legislature is to rewrite history.  It was a boneheaded miscalculation by both parties' politicians in Florida. As it happened, this year, it did not effect the Republicans. Had the Republicans been looking at a close 2-candidate race, we'd be hearing all about the evil Dems forcing this awful legislation on the poor people of Florida.

    It serves no one by trying to change what actually happened.

    Parent

    Bill and amendment (none / 0) (#178)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:04:16 AM EST
    The original bill included the paper trail which even
    Wexler was there to encourage as it had been a long battle to get that up for a vote.

      The amendment later was JUST to move the primary to
    February 5 but Republicans voted it down.  

    Parent

    The argument (none / 0) (#94)
    by IzikLA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:46 PM EST
    That people did not know Obama does not fly with me.  He won Iowa after all and I do believe that was the very first state.  He did very well in the early states.

    Parent
    Moot. HRC is using this issue as diversion. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:03:40 PM EST
    Blogtopus;

    HRC said the rules said they were not allowed to campaign.

    The fact that Michigan and Florida did not follow the rules is a diversion. Even though HRC, was the presumptive leader, with huge name recognition and a gigantic war chest and connections, she  flipped on this issue after the votes came in, and after other contenders took their name off the ballot in one state.

     This whole incident, should have been vetted behind closed doors. It makes the DNC look like a circus and HRC as the ringleader.  No one;  no one running for Democratic Presidential office wants to disenfranchise voters. This was a procedural mess, and HRC is trying to blame who for it? Is there a conspiracy?
    Rings Hollow. Where is the real issue?

    Parent

    Obama blocked revotes (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by RalphB on Sun May 04, 2008 at 06:16:56 PM EST
    that's the issue.

    Parent
    Could she be more awesome? (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by rooge04 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
    No, seriously. Could she? Is there nothing she cannot address with poise, class,and  SENSE?  

    And Clyburn? What a fool. Overturning the will of the "pledged delegates" is anti-democratic but overturning the will of VOTERS is not?  What a silly thing for him to say. Even sillier for Georgie Boy to bring it up.

    Superdelegates Were Created To Do What (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:08:09 PM EST
    they consider to be the good of the party, no matter which way it goes.  All these people playing the "we have to play by the rules" card need to realize that.

    Parent
    The good of the party (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by waldenpond on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:11:37 PM EST
    is to raise enough money to keep them in office. I'm not kidding.  Some Dem was having the most moronic discussion of the Dem party.  It did not  appear to include the voters.  It was all about the 'new' voters (voting down ticket was brought up) and the money.  Boy are they impressed with the money.

    Parent
    They seem to forget who can raise more (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:16:17 PM EST
    than Obama any day. Bill Clinton did more to refill the Dem coffers than anyone, including Obama. He did fundraising for any Dem who asked, whether he liked them or not. And without PAMPAC, which Pamela Harriman started to help Clinton's first run, the Dems would have gone into the '92 race without funds. And the Obama voters apparently do not vote down-ticket, they just vote for Obama and leave the rest blank. Nice of them, isn't it? Imagine the fundraising Bill could do if Hillary is in the White House. Then imagine Obama trying to balance the work of the Presidency and fundraising. Maybe he can send Michelle out to raise money. People can pay her to be insulted. Heh.

    Parent
    I can't believe Snuffuluffagus (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Kathy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:11:40 PM EST
    said that about the DNC rules on MI and FL.  The guy should know them backward and forward by now, and he got them WRONG.

    Parent
    I agree completely, so why hasn't there been more (5.00 / 0) (#34)
    by jccamp on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:58:34 PM EST
    discussion on exactly this point. We keep hearing about the number of pledged delegates or the popular vote somehow proving ownership of the super-delegates. I thought the point of adding delegates not beholden to any vote was to allow supposedly professional party members to compensate for some runaway (nomination) victory by a candidate who could not (or might not) prevail in the GE.  

    At this stage, it seems as though the super-delegates will actually decide, so why are we hearing about who they have to vote for, instead of who they should vote for

    Maybe I missed this in an earlier thread. If so, sorry.

    Parent

    "The will of the pledged delegates" (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:06:13 PM EST
    What about the "will of the people"? Don't we matter at all? This shouldn't surprise me, actually, after the spineless way in which Democrats accepted Bush's "win" in Florida. We apparently care more about the rules than we do about actual voter's. Well, most of us, anyway. It's a bit ironic that the people who were most vocal about how wrong that decision was then are also the most likely to be standing up for the rules and against the voter's now.

    I am not saying I like these rules, but they are (none / 0) (#13)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:15:37 PM EST
    the ones in place; and I, for one, do not know how to change them.

    Parent
    I misquote Bill Maher... (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by Marco21 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:18:03 PM EST
    in regards to some laws.

    Some are just stupid.

    Parent

    The rules allowed Bush to win (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    ...even though he didn't really win. Nobody actually believes that a majority of Floridians went to the polls to vote for Bush on election day. He won on a technicality. We can't control that, because the ultimate arbiter's were 5 right-wingers on the Supreme Court who chose to put partisanship above justice. But Democrats are supposed to be better, and I can choose to not associate myself with a group that has the power to do right but chooses not to.

    Parent
    Nothing to do with Spine - It was Supreme Court (none / 0) (#146)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:12:35 PM EST
    The Supreme Court acts as the final justicable word on many issues.  This had nothing to do with Spine. Maybe cronyism? Thank Katherine Harris and Bush Brother for sending our economy into a tailspin. Oh..One more reason to elect a democrat before the Supreme Court is packed.

    Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), was a United States Supreme Court case heard on December 11, 2000. In a per curiam opinion, by a vote of 7-2, the Court held that the Florida Supreme Court's method for recounting ballots was unconstitutional, and by a vote of 5-4, the Court held that no alternative method could be established within the time limits established by the Florida Legislature. The per curiam opinion was argued on the basis of Equal Protection.

    The decision stopped the recount that was occurring in Florida and allowed Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris's previous certification of George W. Bush as the winner of Florida's electoral votes to stand. Florida's 25 electoral votes gave Bush, the Republican candidate, 271 electoral votes, defeating Democrat Al Gore, who ended up with 266 electoral votes (with one District of Columbia elector abstaining).

    Parent

    The will of 50% of the people? (none / 0) (#182)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:20:04 AM EST
    What is "The Will of the People" when the ONE REQUIREMENT is that they make 2025+ (without Fla and Michigan) but NEITHER can.  THEN there is NO rules about the one leading in votes getting anything or being a guideline, in any way, in those rules.  

      What the superdelegates were created to do was avoid another McGovern disaster, which we are facing in November.

      But then if Obama supporters really did fear a McCain in the presidency they might even want to look hard at electability and electoral polling as well as exit-polling.

    Parent

    apparently Carville said this today (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by athyrio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:15:33 PM EST
    Carville also says Clinton needs to win both Indiana and North Carolina on Tuesday. "The onus is on her. She's got to do better than tie. If she wins Indiana and North Carolina, she's the nominee. She's got to shock the system, and she may be shocking it...

    Sorta raises the bar....I am hoping she will win NC and IN and wouldnt be surprised if she does...

    wow (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Kathy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:22:25 PM EST
    reminds me of the Big Dog saying she had to win OH and TX.  Oh, how we freaked!  (at least I did; I'll admit it!)

    Very interesting coming from Carville, though, because he's got to have access to internals.

    image: Babe Ruth, bat in one hand, pointing into the stands with the other...

    Parent

    Holy buckets, (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by eleanora on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:23:58 PM EST
    what show did Carville say that on? Wow, they must really think she has a shot at North Carolina; Carville can go off the reservation on personal issues, but he's usually very controlled and on-message about the political game. Yikes, now I'm all excited :D

    Parent
    When I read this on another blog they didnt (none / 0) (#22)
    by athyrio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:32:50 PM EST
    mention which show, so does anyone know which show he appeared on this morning??

    Parent
    Bill Clinton said it a while back (none / 0) (#26)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:43:50 PM EST
    He said that if Hillary wins in North Caroline, she will be the nominee. I checked the polls at the time and thought that he was insane to even think it was possible. I'm still thinking it's very unlikely that she can win NC, but it's amazing that it's even possible that she might. If she defeats the astonishing odds and wins NC, it will be clear to everybody (not just some of us) that Obama simply can't win the election in November. If she loses, even by a small margin, they will be able to argue that he is a winner, even though his support is crashing. It's all about spin.

    Parent
    Over View (none / 0) (#84)
    by jackyt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:01:56 PM EST
    He said "If she wins NC it's over". He did NOT say "if Obama wins NC it's over".

    Parent
    I didn't mean to imply that (none / 0) (#88)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:11:03 PM EST
    But I think that the media will spin it that way. We have to be realistic. Right now, Clinton is behind in delegates and behind in voter's unless we give her all of her Michigan votes and allocate none to Obama (which is a stretch, given that many people in Michigan did support Obama). The best argument she has is that Obama simply can't win the general election, and the media will only go along with that if he has overwhelming, unexpected losses in upcoming elections. And voter's will only go along with it if the media buy it.

    Parent
    Can either one win... (none / 0) (#98)
    by jackyt on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:27:46 PM EST
    before the convention.

    It looks to me like, even after all the primaries are completed, neither one will have the number of delegates necessary to win. That would mean that the 1st ballot at the convention is likely to be inconclusive. And then, all bets are off. As far as I understand, committed delegates are only committed on the 1st ballot.

    Parent

    It is not a stretch. (none / 0) (#104)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:36:06 PM EST
    Obama took his name off voluntarily.  This was a political calculation.  He has blocked revotes in MI and FL.  He is running a 48 state and run out the clock strategy.  He should not be rewarded for his political miscalculations and his so far successful attempt to disenfranchise 2.3 million voters in the most historic and one of the most important elections ever.

    He gets no votes or delegates.  They are either for Clinton or Uncommitted.

    Parent

    Huh - what are you making up fantasy rules (none / 0) (#149)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:20:04 PM EST
    Alexei,

    What source tells you what Obama did was a political calculation?
    Furthermore, why would Obama have to get no votes?  And why in the name of Heaven would he ever agree to that? Wishful thinking?

    Parent

    Only if she wanted to GET the nomination today (none / 0) (#183)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:26:04 AM EST
    To win both (almost impossible) would mean such a sea-change from expectations and following a long list of big-state wins, it would mean a Halt to the 'Obama Is It' movement.

      But it's highly unlikely she can do that, and it seems she'll do well to win Indiana and come close in NC which would just cast some doubt on the waters and mean a continuation of what we've seen, through first week of June.

      If she loses Indiana as well as NC, she may as well suspend her campaign, but she'd probably stay in anyway and get as many votes as she can while there is time and while anything can happen in this strange campaign.

    Parent

    Great answer on FLA/MI (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Marco21 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:16:31 PM EST
    In tussles with Obama supporters you often field "But she agreed to the Florida and Michigan penalties. My response has always been "She's wrong. So what?"

    Even the most ardent Obama supporter has to concede that unless Florida and Michigan are dealt with fairly, there's no way we're taking those in the fall. The GOP cannot wait to use the "disenfranchising voters" attack.

    No one needs to give them ammo.

    How did the Campaigns "Agree" (none / 0) (#40)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:08:01 PM EST
    I am sincerely asking for info here -- Did the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee ask for the campaigns' consents to the penalties imposed on MI & FL or decide independently of the campaigns, followed by the campaigns indicating they agreed to or agreed with the decision?

    Thanks

    Parent

    The only gameplan (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:32:19 PM EST
    one should be advocating right now is the one most concurrent with Democracy.

    How much farther do we go with this before we look outside at the line of people waiting to vote and say "there's not enough of them to change the results, close the doors."????

    Never (none / 0) (#33)
    by Marvin42 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:55:43 PM EST
    Everybody votes.

    Parent
    Just let the votes happen (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:18:18 PM EST
    If Obama wins, it only legitimizes his victory.


    Parent
    Bingo! (none / 0) (#123)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:07:38 PM EST
    And he's finally accepted that, too.

    Parent
    It is one of the measures that the SDs can and ... (none / 0) (#111)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:46:01 PM EST
    should use to determine the nominee.  As pointed out numerous times, neither one can get to the magic number, you need the SDs to decide.  So what are the SDs criteria?

    BTD and many others, including me, believe that the popular vote winner is a much better reflection of the will of the people than the pledged delegate winner (see caucuses, Texas, Washington State,etc.).  Two other major criteria is who is best able to beat John McCain and who is going to be the best President.  Implicit in the first question are the big state/anchor state for EC and the broadest, deepest and most reliable base of support.

    I know that there are a myriad of other reasons that the SDs can say they decided - it is their decision.  But, I would hope that the best able to beat McCain, the best President and the winner of the popular vote (including FL and MI) are the major criteria used.

    Parent

    Because Howard Dean changed his mind (none / 0) (#184)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:39:17 AM EST
    At Financial Times, Dean said the following (if you're able to pull up the full story instead of the summary, depending on your registration):

    "I think the race is going to come down to the perception in the last six or eight races of who the best opponent for McCain will be. I do not think in the long run it will come down to the popular vote or anything else."

    Even 'pundits' have started studying the 'rules' to see that nowhere is it suggested that superdelegates are to vote according to which candidate has the most delegates in primaries and caucuses that have wildly varying ways of apportioning delegates and where representation in the more limited attendance at caucuses has been a point of contention for some time even if it's cheaper to run.

    The superdelegate 'feature' was created when they felt they wanted no more elections in which they had to run a candidate who polls showed was destined to lose in a big way, as McGovern did.   There is no question when a candidate reaches the requirement of 2025+ votes (but more if Fla and Mich are allowed) but there is if neither does.

    Neither racehorse who fails to get to that finish line is the designated winner.  What's needed is a solid look at who is the most likely to take the party to victory, since as  Obama supporters say, the most important thing is that McCain not be the president.

    Parent

    I'm happy to see both of them talking unity (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by fuzzyone on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:50:16 PM EST
    They both seem to have realized that whoever wins they need a united party.  Neither can win without the other's voters.  Clinton still obviously has an uphill battle, but it is certainly possible for her to pull it off.  I'm skeptical that she can win NC but if she wins NC and IND then she definitely has a shot.  Either way I think they both realize that things are going to end soon and that the important thing is to beat McCain (who seems to get nuttier every day).  Ideally I would love to see things decided in June rather than drag on to the convention, practically I'm not sure I see how that happens given how close it looks like things are going to be the rest of the way.

    When did Obama say that? (none / 0) (#89)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:12:16 PM EST
    I guess I missed that press cycle. I don't remember Obama explicitly saying that he would campaign for Clinton if she won the primary.

    Parent
    Hillary and George (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:25:01 PM EST
    She is so incredibly amazing to watch. He didn't let her get away with walking around any questions, he'd go back for an answer.  And, she had a good, logical response to everything. I'm so glad he drilled down deeper so people could see she really does understand what she is saying, and truly has a plan. None of these surface questions that are merely sound bites.

    She never volunteers a criticism against Obama, and doesn't whine that he is constantly doing that to her.  Adult, intelligent, charismatic, and a true stateswoman.

    The entire will of the people issue (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:26:54 PM EST
    will be decided by SD's.  That's obvious.  If they decide for Hillary, then Obama will come out and say that her obvious win of popular vote is real, congratulate her, and vow to work on her behalf.  After which, he'll promptly disappear.  *haha

    That's the way I see this coming down.

    But Hillary has to make this possible by convincing through strong momentum from here on out.

    No more sniper fire, in other words.  This campaign has to run like a clock.

    And one more gaffe by Obama would be terribly handy.  :)

    Despite his problems (none / 0) (#186)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:49:34 AM EST
    with Jeremiah Wright's shenanigans and the statements from his own book which show exactly why he was drawn to Wright's church (and the reasons are understandable to me), I don't think she would win in November either unless she and he were running together, with Hillary heading the ticket.  A duo ticket would not work the other way due to age, seniority, the head for detail, and her being not symbolic of "change" in his campaign focus on that the way his supporters see 'change.'

    Parent
    Every vote should count (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Sunshine on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:32:29 PM EST
    I have always thought that FL was stolen in 2000..  If FL and MI are not counted, I will feel that they have been stolen again....   This is a practice that should not be started...  If you don't think you can carry the state, find some way to throw the count out...  

    Florida and the vote. Exactly. (none / 0) (#187)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:54:15 AM EST
    It was my focus in 2000 and it's my focus now.  It won't work if they don't fix that problem.  Dean can relish being rigidly literal about every aspect of his idiotic penalties on the voters for rules he created which he seems to feel were created in the Book of Genesis and he can relish his 'victory' of a strict determination in the Republican way while his party, led by him, goes to resounding defeat in November.

      I could never imagine such stupidity if I were writing a fictional piece about a party and its primaries.

    Parent

    People will need to get over it (4.00 / 0) (#48)
    by pluege on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:16:54 PM EST
    so...

    African Americans will be upset if HRC is the nominee

    Latinos and working class whites will be upset if Obama is the nominee

    politics isn't about pleasing everyone. Many people are going to have to get over it regardless of who the nominee is.

    If democrats can't hold together their multi-cultural coalition to better the country than they're not worth squat.

    OK, so why isn't the working class culture (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by feet on earth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:29:27 PM EST
    in his big tent?

    As I said in a previous post, this is why IMHO:

    1. You can't eat speeches, pay groceries with inspiration, or fill the tank with hope.  

    2. the lack of class analysis is Obama's problem with the street smart working class who work with sweat in low-paying jobs.  They eat lunch out of their brown paper bags, not at fancy cafe-o-let outfits blogging away.  

    3. Until Obama gets it, he can deliver the most inspiring speeches and fail to get the vote of the street-smart and self-educated working class people.  

    4. It's a class issue, the contempt of most liberal democrats with the party base (the working class) is the friction in the party.

    5.  Obama has failed miserably in inspiring them.  His supporters and the pro-Obama media, accusing them of racism,  and of being white-trash can feel good and appeasing their white-guild, but they are doing it at the expanse of party unity and of Obam's ability to appeal to them.

    But what's new, they think of themselves as the pure segment of society,  the holders of the truth, the educated class that must teach the masses what to think and how to behave.
    Ha, those blue-collar people, so pig-headed, so uneducated,
    so small-town, so bitter, forget them, they don't count.
    WRONG!!!  They are smart people, with fine noses for smelling BS a mile away.  Their hard lives the teacher.

    There, I got it off my chest.

    Parent

    Another amen to that.. (5.00 / 0) (#97)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:26:15 PM EST
    Ha, those blue-collar people, so pig-headed, so uneducated,
    so small-town, so bitter, forget them, they don't count.
    They also vote, and they won't be voting for him. He and his supporters should check out the census and the national demographics before putting large portions, actually the majority, of Americans down.

    Parent
    Amen To That (none / 0) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:48:15 PM EST
    It is also very well and good for people on the blogs to demand loyalty to the party but I'm of the opinion that is not going to work with a large segment of the population that Obama needs to win the WH. A few pretty speeches will not IMO offset what has been done in the primaries by Obama and his supporters. Once this was done it will be extremely difficult maybe impossible to undo.

    His supporters and the pro-Obama media, accusing them of racism,  and of being white-trash can feel good and appeasing their white-guild, but they are doing it at the expanse of party unity and of Obam's ability to appeal to them.



    Parent
    Now, Obama's academese (none / 0) (#79)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:56:52 PM EST
    and bitter comments do not, in my opinion, give us insight into his heart of hearts.

    It gives me insight into his style only.

    I personally don't like it, but that's a person prejudice.  I spent too many hideously boring dinner party nights with academics.  They all talk like him, like people are bugs and they have all the answers.  

    But they were nice people, in spite of their social flaws.

    Parent

    "They all talk like him, like people are bugs (none / 0) (#103)
    by feet on earth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:36:06 PM EST
    and they have all the answers"
    I disagree, this not just an expression of their social flows. It is as callus as one can get.  People are not bugs, and their attitude is potent insecticide.   Forget elitism, it is classism, and we smell it.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#122)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:06:11 PM EST
    it's the worst kind, too, in my opinion.  It's hidden.  

    Parent
    That's the essence (none / 0) (#116)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:49:18 PM EST
    of why he's all talk and no walk.

    I've watched Hillary from the beginning thread the needle, proposing progressive solutions and bold ideas, and people who normally wouldn't go for that?  They fall right in line.  That's leadership.

    I've watched her outsmart Obama in every debate and in every venue.  Smart women usually put off men.  She did, initially, but she won them over.  She's now Margaret Thatcher.  We let a few women in life be alpha.  Hillary has won that spot.

    I've watched him talk about divisiveness.  Yet she's the one who consistently calms the troops down.  She's shown leadership in unity even in the primary, convincing all of us that everyone needs to vote.  Dang, if NC isn't a testimony to that, I don't know what is!  They are turning out in droves there.  PA may have been glad to see the spotlight off of them.  But that was because it was 8 straight weeks.  What state can stand that?  NC?  Perfect amount of attention.

    Guam......little ole' Guam........was so excited because Bill talked on the radio.  Nobody ever thinks of them.  They were in the news and important.

    Hillary's message to let the voters vote has definitely been heard.  Even Dean and Pelosi finally shut up.  She was right.  That's unifying the party.

    Here's what people are missing, I think.  As we all have trudged through this long primary together, we have bonded.  Even in our severe differences.  We ARE, in fact, unified.

    Once we truly accomplish choosing a nominee, we will have that bond that comes from "we came through the war together."  

    That is no small bond.  And we all will have earned it.

    Parent

    The media phrased this issue for you (none / 0) (#155)
    by Chuck001 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:54:21 PM EST
    Half of the things you said, "feet on earth",  were not said or implied by Obama. The inferences were presented to you and framed by McCain and then HRC. You ate the soup and the spoon. I find it hard to believe, but Republicans attacked Hillary as elitist the same way years ago.  Now 108 million dollars later she co-opts the same attack against a fellow party member. cool.

    As for accomplishments, well, Obama has achieved quite a lot for ordinary Americans in his work as a community organizer, state senator, US senator.
    Read this: http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/10/b arack_obama.html
    or this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303.html

    As for Hillary's experience and qualifications, Republican;s will harp on the following.
     look here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/26/us/politics/26clinton.html
    or here:
    http://www.newmediajournal.us/staff/swirsky/03132006.htm

    Parent

    No thank you, to much Obama bias (none / 0) (#168)
    by feet on earth on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:38:56 PM EST
    in your minestroni soup and no garlic for my garlic nose.

    BTW we working class people do not use spoons, didn't you know?

    Parent

    Define the party... (none / 0) (#20)
    by mcdtracy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:28:03 PM EST
    OK... It a tie.

    Obama brings younger voters into the party.

    HRC would push them back into apathy.

    Look to the future and work on gaining of congress. Win more seats to get things done.

    Obama's youth (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Edgar08 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:34:07 PM EST
    Would be pushed back into apathy after one year of Obama in the White House anyway.

    It's not a function of politics.

    It's a function of youth itself.

    I know.  I've been there.


    Parent

    Another poster, I don't remember who (none / 0) (#101)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:33:00 PM EST
    mentioned that in CO the Obama caucus delegates went skiing instead of going to the convention. And reports of their not voting down ticket in the primaries are rampant. So how are they going to help the Dem party if all they are into is Obama? They won't stick around if he doesn't get the nod, and they sure won't vote for anyone else. What use are one-time voters to the party?? What use are people who will donate to one person but not to the party he belongs to?? None, that's what.

    Parent
    Actually Clinton has won the youth vote. (none / 0) (#114)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    And she is performing very well with the older Millenials.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#126)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:13:26 PM EST
    about them.  My son is a great example.  He loves to say that he totally is in agreement with me on politics.  Socially liberal, fiscally conservative.  He voted for Hillary.

    But he's a lot more open to Obama than I am at this stage.  Now, in part that's due to pocket-book issues.  He demanded today to know why I was reluctant, and I could tell he was surprised when my real issues are all about specific tax/SS/pocket-book stuff.  That stumped him.  And it affects him, too.  If I get whacked, he gets whacked, eventually.

    So you're so right.  He's very much in tune with my social issues.  I am a HUGE believer that you simply cannot dismiss someone with sexism or ageism or racism and claim to have a brain cell left in your head.  Either we respect everyone, or we are endorsing a philosophy of excusion.

    End of story for me.  

    He was raised with that perspective, and I'm a bit surprised that he got it.  

    But you're right.  He is totally different from the young bloggers I've met along the path this year who are so very ugly about Hillary.

    He wouldn't dare.  :)

    Parent

    And what about Clinton's supporters? (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by otherlisa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:47:27 PM EST
    Many of whom are the rank and file volunteers, who get things done for the Democratic Party? Many of whom are also newly energized?

    I really get a little weary of the meme that only Obama has enthusiastic supporters.

    Parent

    Another essential piece of data are donations... (none / 0) (#99)
    by mcdtracy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:28:04 PM EST
    Obama gets more small donations that add up and give the party more resources. It's bringing in new blood.

    Parent
    Clinton is also doing this. (none / 0) (#118)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:53:21 PM EST
    For example, just after her PA win, she got between 65,000 and 80,000 new donors.  I am not saying that Obama doesn't have more, but, that was an emphasis ( a good one) and the Clinton campaign woke up to this.  I also know Dean did this in 2004.  Kerry was able to get put together an impressive fundraising list (which Obama uses).  

    I really believe that everyone underestimates the new people that Hillary is bringing into the campaign.  Women coming out in record numbers, Latinas and Latinos are also.

    Parent

    Obama (none / 0) (#151)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:33:28 PM EST
    has sucked up huge corporate donations and lied like a fox.

    We all are so done with his "grass-roots" story.  

    He's a BS artist.

    Now, in my book?

    That doesn't make him evil.

    Just another politician who lies.

    Parent

    Obama brought in all those new voters (none / 0) (#185)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:43:37 AM EST
    into Ohio and Texas and Pennsylvania.

      And he lost in actual primaries, where most people are able to vote easily, regardless of time constraints due to jobs, and families.

      He lost.  The solid core of the Democrat Party has tried to tell the DNC something and if they don't listen, guess what will happen in November.

      I read about one district in Texas where there were 10 delegates allowed for Obama and 4 for Clinton.  All 10 for Obama didn't show up, so the only delegates sent from that one district were the ones for Clinton.  Bring in new people but also pay attention to whether they are interested in the party or the rock star quality of one of the candidates.  

      There is plenty of Hope for Change in the Clinton camp and she has been almost tieing Obama for young vote in the past couple of primaries.

    Parent

    Ya know (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:52:29 PM EST
    I have never bought the "the young voters will leave if they don't get their candidate" theme. Because when I cast my first vote, it was for, ugh, Humphrey. I can assure you that he didn't energise, mesmerise or make me tingle. But I voted for him and have voted for Democrats for 40 years. Not always happy with the candidate. Sometimes, as with Windbag Kerry it took every ounce of my willpower to hold my nose and vote for him.

    Some young voters will become a part of the process and will continue to participate. Those that will leave because they don't get their own way aren't going to stick around for the long haul anyway.

    Parent

    Little tangible evidence the hyped juicy new vote (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ellie on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:00:07 PM EST
    ... will be the Dem cavalry in the GE or the one factor that does them in. If this support is as solid as the hype maintains, shouldn't Obama have performed much better -- including in college-rich PA -- and not currently be dialing back upcoming gains?

    In any case, hype shouldn't determine party strategy in the GE and certainly not writing off the majority of Dems' existing support.  

    Parent

    Even the young people need to understand (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by felizarte on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:08:29 PM EST
    the notion of one man/woman; one vote some time in a democracy.  The young cannot continue to act like kids having a tantrum just because they do not get what they want.  They have the same obligation, same vote as everyone else and accept the vote of the majority.  Just like in sports, teams play against one another; sometimes a team wins and sometimes it loses.  But teams send their best players to the All Star games and they play as one team against the stars of the other league.

    Parent
    Your argument sounds familiar.. (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by esmense on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:29:35 PM EST
    ...others agree that the youth vote is -- "one of those rare chances to rally a new following, or at least to provoke a different configuration, out of this immense section of younger voters who are still at an impressionable and responsive stage. If an exciting individual or cause really stirs this generation, it could be activated in numbers that make irrelevant any past indicators of political participation among the young, and it would then become one of the few human waves of historic consequence. If this still unmarshaled mass is allowed to scatter, or a substantial part of it is turned off, it will pass as one of the great lost opportunities in American politics and history."

    Unfortunately, that quote is from Fred Dutton, McGovern advisor and author of the (at the time) very influential book, "Changing Sources of Power: American Politics in the 1970's."

    As it turned out, the youth vote McGovern was depending on never materialized in the general election (in fact, turnout in 1972 was well below the average turnout for Presidential elections up until that point -- it was the first of many low turnout elections that followed) and, despite the fact that so many young people saw McGovern as the "exciting individual or cause" they could embrace during the primaries, actual political participation by Boomer generation voters in that year's general election was apathetic -- in fact, contrary to Dutton and other Democrats fondest hopes, Boomers ended up following the same pattern as other generations before them in terms of their political participation; that is, it increased with age, assets and responsibility (much more important factors in voting participation than the "excitement" of any individual).

    Certain Democrats, it seems, have been waiting to be saved by a "new" generation of voters for more than a generation now.

    But the reality is that Boomer generation is just reaching its years of highest political participation -- and will be the most politically powerful generation for some time to come.

    Parent

    Well, thank you! (5.00 / 0) (#95)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:22:51 PM EST
    I have been more than a bit miffed by the Tom Hayden type of Democrats who would like me to think I should step aside.

    Good golly.  I spent all this time finally getting to a place where I actually make sense, and now I'm put out on the ice flow?

    Not yet.  No way.

    I so appreciate someone noticing that the Baby Boomer generation has actually just hit our stride.

    Parent

    Yeah..I remember when I was very (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:37:19 PM EST
    anti-Establishment. This amused my parents and grandparents who told me, "Live long enough, kid, and you will be the Establishment."

    I did, and I am. Siiiiighhhhhhhh.

    Parent

    Ugh. (none / 0) (#166)
    by zyx on Sun May 04, 2008 at 07:14:19 PM EST
    Had a conversation with my son last night.  among other not-so-happy topics, I told him that he makes me feel/sound like an Establishment Mom Type, and I don't like or appreciate it one bit.

    I guess his (obvious) answer would be for me to just STFU, but he isn't that hostile.  But, drat, he's at a point where I think...oh, nevermind!

    Parent

    If younger voters, as you say (none / 0) (#27)
    by MichaelGale on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:46:37 PM EST
    are pushed back to apathy, then they are stamping their feet and playing victims.

    You have heard the saying; Can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen?

    Maybe it will weed out those "younger people" who are just the Obama followers and not that interested in voting anyway.

    I have said I will vote independently this election if Obama wins, but I will vote for something....and I have never missed voting in any election, state or federal in 35 years.

    Therefore, I can say - keep the younger voters or lose the loyal ones 'older'.;

    Parent

    Many "Younger" voters Support Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by cdalygo on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:01:16 PM EST
    It's another myth that he has the entire youth vote. He gets most of the upper class kids at bigger universities. She gets the working class kids.

    When I saw her with a standing room only crowd at Cal-State LA two days before the CA primary, I knew she would win. It's a commuter college like I attended, where most the students are working (even the young ones). At least in CA those colleges graduate the middle-managers, teachers, and public servants.

    In contrast, the bigger universities turn out the professionals and academics.

    (Note: These are not static categories. For example, I'm a lawyer.)

    But it's important reminder that things are not static in any category.

    Parent

    Agreed; I'm at a working-class campus (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    and I just don't see Obama supporters.  I know they must be there; for one thing, we're a campus with a lot of AA students.  But he had a lot of backing at the the other, private, and pricey campus in town.

    Then again, students at working-class campuses tend to have less time -- with most of them with fulltime jobs and/or families and/or mortgages and/or more:-) -- for anything but getting to classes.  But they sure do get to the polls.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#31)
    by cmugirl on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:54:00 PM EST
    I almost screamed at the TV when she said that both she and Obama both said they will work for a unified party - really?  When?

    I think she was just being nice - he's never said that.

    Yes, he did (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:14:39 PM EST
    you can find it on YouTube.  The Jefferson-Jackson dinner in North Carolina.

    They both said almost word-for-word they would support the other.  I'm thinking their campaigns are talking about reality now that it's so near the end.

    Parent

    And his supporters booed her for it. (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by FlaDemFem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:40:09 PM EST
    I thought that was the height of rudeness. And he didn't say a word about it, not then and not since. To me that is tacit consent to their behavior.

    Parent
    She should have added "this week" (nt) (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Cream City on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:32:24 PM EST
    Didn't he say: what Hillary sd. at (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Sun May 04, 2008 at 01:59:37 PM EST
    the recent dinner each addressed in NC?

    Parent
    It's just too bad (none / 0) (#43)
    by riddlerandy on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:12:16 PM EST
    that far too many of her supporters here do not agree with her.  

    "And I've often said that people who support me -- and they support me passionately -- and people who support Senator Obama and support him passionately -- they have much more in common than they do with Senator McCain and the Republicans."

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    But, I, for one, will reluctantly vote for Obama if he is the nominee, just as I voted for Kerry.  
    I'm most worried about what happens with the Supreme Court if McCain gets to make any appointments.  We're already seen what's happened to photo i.d.s, Bush v. Gore, etc.

    But I am banking on the Dems coming to their senses, & assuming Hillary keeps on winning....so at least she retains the popular vote majority.

    Parent

    I have voted for Democratic nominees (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by otherlisa on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:44:21 PM EST
    with varying degrees of enthusiasm. But if Obama is the nominee, it will be really tough for me. I've never felt so belittled, so insulted, so marginalized during the course of a Presidential primary. I am not putting all (or even most) of the blame on Obama himself, but on his rabid supporters in the media, the political establishment and the internet.

    I do think that Obama deserves a share of the blame for this, by his passive encouragement of these attitudes. And I really do not want to vote for him.

    I probably will, if it comes down to it. But with great reluctance and no small amount of clinging bitterness.

    Parent

    I think I can talk myself into it (none / 0) (#127)
    by AnninCA on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:15:14 PM EST
    bout like Kerry.

    I never liked Kerry.  He was the least of two unattractive suits to me.

    I pulled the lever without enthusiasm and never got over-excited about all the hoopla.  

    Parent

    I won't but I respect her continued talk to get us (none / 0) (#120)
    by alexei on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:56:17 PM EST
    to vote Democratic. Oh, I will be, because I'm writing Hillary in if Obama is given the nomination.

    Parent
    Who is this self-styled "advisor?" (none / 0) (#60)
    by AdrianLesher on Sun May 04, 2008 at 02:24:33 PM EST
    Who, or how close to the campaign this "advisor" was  is not indicated in the article, because the "advisor" choses not to be named. There is no way to tell if this person is someone who self-servingly calls himself an "advisor,"  like Dan Gerstein, or someone actually close to Obama.

    Sheila Jackson Lee (none / 0) (#113)
    by DEM on Sun May 04, 2008 at 03:46:51 PM EST
    Y'all should check out the "supporters debate" from 'This Week'.  Toward the end of the segment, the Obama supporter (Artur from Alabama) tried to advance the "the Clinton campaign is racist" meme [didja know that 'electability' is race-code?!], and both Evan Bayh and Sheila Jackson Lee shut him right down.  Jackson Lee was especially great, and she wasn't having any of his "Oh, now, let's be honest..." crap.  She also got a couple of digs in at Obama's taking the AA community for granted.

    Oh, and she also said "Big Tent".  heh.

    How Obama stole TX... (none / 0) (#121)
    by chopper on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:02:13 PM EST
    The following is a link to the full story, then a few paragraphs from the story.

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/04/texas-caucus-fraud/#comment-222244

    We saw stolen precincts where Obama organizers fabricated counts, made false entries on sign-in sheets, suppressed delegate counts, and suppressed caucus voters. We saw patterns such as missing electronic access code sheets and precinct packets taken before the legal time, like elsewhere in the state. Obama volunteers illegally took convention materials state-wide, with attempts as early as 6:30 am. Some of this was presented in a press release from Clinton Campaign Counsel Lyn Utrecht, but I witnessed worse than what she disclosed.

    In one example of fraud that I witnessed, one of my precinct captains, an elderly Hispanic woman, called me to report that BHO supporters had illegally seized control of the convention. During our series of phone calls, Mrs. "A." reported that the Obama people took the convention materials and did not have a legal election of officers. Like nearly all of El Paso, BHO people would have lost such an election in this majority-Hillary, Hispanic, mostly elderly precinct convention.

    The Obama people ordered Mrs. A. to sit across the room during the delegate calculation, and excluded Hillary supporters from the process. Mrs. A. overheard an Obama supporter call in a false delegate count to Austin. In a 13 delegate precinct where Obama should have won approximately 4 delegates, the Obama supporters attempted to award 19 delegates to Obama.

    You know (none / 0) (#145)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:09:00 PM EST
    I'm a skeptic, and I don't buy this any more than I buy that a woman's voter's org would suppress voting (one of the phony scandals from last week).

    They should press charges, make complaints.  The notion that the DNC has asked Hillary not to and she's abiding by that is ridiculous. It smells like a whisper campaign.

    Parent

    Actually, there is some support for this (none / 0) (#147)
    by dianem on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:17:28 PM EST
    Clinton's campaign encouraged local people to challenge some of Obama's electors, and they were successful in challenging quite a few. At the very least, the caucuses were disorganized and un-Democratic. Given the many charges on left-wing sites about how Clinton's people "stole" Nevada's caucuses, it would not surprise me if some of Obama's more enthusiastic young supporter's decided to balance things out by "helping" him in the Texas Caucuses.

    Parent
    IIRC There Were Over 2,000 Complaints (none / 0) (#173)
    by MO Blue on Sun May 04, 2008 at 09:10:10 PM EST
    filed regarding the Texas caucus. So there may be some substance to this.

    Parent
    I never thought I would get (none / 0) (#154)
    by WillBFair on Sun May 04, 2008 at 05:50:36 PM EST
    to hear the Clinton brilliance again on a regular basis. It would be so sweet to listen to her precise and elegant speech for eight years.
    This morning Obama said it's been a long journey. How profound. Actually, it's only been a few months. And if I have to listen to that shallow rhetoric for the next year, I don't know, but it won't be pretty.
    http://a-civilife.blogspot.com

    Ugly prejudice is alive and well twd both (none / 0) (#188)
    by andrys on Mon May 05, 2008 at 02:58:30 AM EST
    toward both representatives of minorities.  It's a virtually tied race, though Obama supporters have treated it as a won race since before Ohio when they started losing.

      But it's as good as tied, and this country is full of people who wouldn't vote for either candidate because of bias against women leaders or for non-whites.  But I can see that things have gotten better, for both.

      Let's face it, all 3 candidates are very flawed, though all got into the race for the right reasons.  But there are plenty of understandable reasons to vote against any one of them.

      And of course good reasons to vote for at least the Dems :-)

    No way McCain (none / 0) (#192)
    by kak08 on Fri May 09, 2008 at 10:16:33 PM EST
    My personal opinion is while I support Hillary and would vote for her, I will not support John McCain if Obama gets the nomination. I went to www.ontheissues.org  and checked things out. While the mud slinging is not pleasant, both Clinton and Obama are better candidates than McCain who is more of a Bush clone. Actually both candidates have their strengths and are competent in  many ways.
     But elections  get sticky and messy. To me personally voting for McCain would be to doom America to more of the same. He tells people in Michighan, that  the jobs are gone, and in not so many words,"deal with it." Promises more wars and wars to come. Support Bush's tax cuts that primarily benefit the rich.Do we honestly need another Bush clone? No candidate is perfect. But we stand to lose more than gain if Mc Cain is elected. At least the dems are addressing the issues.They have tried to raise minimum wage and get other legislation passed that would help more people.