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Unity?

As usual, I have severe criticism for everybody involved in today's fiasco. Let me start with the Clinton camp. You know my beef about the Clinton camp's tactics and strategy on this. Look at their statement just released after the meeting:

Today’s results are a victory for the people of Florida who will have a voice in selecting our Party’s nominee and will see its delegates seated at our party’s convention. The decision by the Rules and Bylaws Committee honors the votes that were cast by the people of Florida and allocates the delegates accordingly. [MORE].

Um what? Florida lost half its delegates when it did NOTHING wrong? Hooray? It is true the Clinton campaign is the only reason even half the delegates were seated. But Florida deserved better. The voters of Florida have been victimized by the Democratic Party. It is that simple. And the Clinton camp decided to throw away that issue in favor of a fight over Michigan, who did break the rules. From the Clinton statement:

We strongly object to the Committee’s decision to undercut its own rules in seating Michigan’s delegates without reflecting the votes of the people of Michigan.

The Committee awarded to Senator Obama not only the delegates won by Uncommitted, but four of the delegates won by Senator Clinton. This decision violates the bedrock principles of our democracy and our Party.

It does more than that, it violates the Rules. And here is my continued criticism of the sanctimonious hypocrisy of the RBC and its nonsensical "rules are rules" BS. There is not a rule the RBC can point to that allows them to do what they did. Indeed, as I wrote, I would have had more respect if they had seated NO delegates from Michigan, holding to their August 25 decision, than what they did today.

If the rules REALLY mattered, then the RBC had three choices. NO delegates for Michigan. Half of the delegates based on the January 15 primary. Or All of the delegates based on the January 15 primary.

The rulebook was completely thrown out on this one. Making a mockery of every single sanctimonious statement ever made by Donna Brazile and her RBC cabal.

But the biggest mistakes today were made by Barack Obama. Why? In my opinion, nothing that happened today could take the nomination away from Obama. Hell, he should have argued for full seating of both delegations based on the primary results, taking the Michigan uncommitted delegates. Even in the unlikely event the RBC would have agreed to that, that would have only cost him 57 delegates net. That was not going to threaten his nomination.

And it would have unified the Party. It would have been a wonderful gesture to the Clinton Wing of the Party. It would have shut everyone up when he wins the nomination. What did Obama do instead? He fought to take 4 delegates from Clinton in Michigan. For what? To piss off every Clinton supporter and keep the Party divided?

All over 4 measly delegates? Incredible.

Barack Obama will be the nominee of the Democratic Party imo, and for four measly delegates, he just made his already difficult task of unifying the Democratic Party that much more difficult.

In short, Democrats have proven yet again how stupid we really are. So what's next? More stupidity probably. Here is what the Clinton camp says:

We reserve the right to challenge this decision before the Credentials Committee and appeal for a fair allocation of Michigan’s delegates that actually reflect the votes as they were cast.

Great, fight for 4 measly delegates from Michigan but let Florida, who played by the rules, get screwed out of half of it delegates. Unity? Not hardly.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

Comments Now Closed

< FL/MI Live Blog: The Belated Afternoon Session | Deep Thought >
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  • Display: Sort:
    huh? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Robert Oak on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:27:45 PM EST
    I thought they issued a strong "we reserve the right to challenge both FL and MI at the credentials committee" which meant hey are going to the convention with it.

    Which I think is the right thing to do....I also think they have a tough road because while they are and have been getting the shaft by this preordained Obama anointment, they cannot make it appear they stole it, and believe me Alexrod and his media machine would certainly do that.

    So, what am I missing here with the idea that the Clinton campaign just laid down like dogs and took the screw job on Florida?

    It's hard (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Emma on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:30:27 PM EST
    to take a decision you agree with to the credentials committee.

    [ Parent ]
    You think (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by pie on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:34:52 PM EST
    Hillary is giving up?

    I don't.

    [ Parent ]

    Well (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by Emma on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:39:59 PM EST
    I don't know what to think.  

    I think she hasn't reserved her right to challenge the FL decision before the credentials committee.  From her statement:

    We reserve the right to challenge this decision before the Credentials Committee and appeal for a fair allocation of Michigan's delegates that actually reflect the votes as they were cast.

    Beyond that, I seriously have no clue.  I am adrift.  Seriously, badly, confusedly adrift.  Up until this moment I hadn't felt like a voter without a party.  Now I do.  My vote was stolen.  That's all there is to it. Stolen.  YOu know it.  I know it.  The Dems know it.  But they did it anyway.  Incredible.

    [ Parent ]

    Well... (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by OrangeFur on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:57:41 PM EST
    I don't think you have to publicly reserve your right to anything to actually keep it. They still have the right to argue for Florida's full seating. Getting them in the door is the first big step. If the difference becomes Florida's half votes and Florida's full votes, something will happen then.

    I don't know what the Clinton strategy is right now. Obviously every delegate counts, but to me, Clinton's battle now is for the popular vote. My ideal goal for her is to have an unambiguous win in the popular vote, given some reasonable estimate of Obama's MI support, and present that to the convention:

    More people voted for me than for anyone else by any reasonable measure. If you want to take the nomination away from my voters because of arcane caucus rules and disenfranchisement in Florida and Michigan, that's within your power. But you can't hide from what you're doing. Do the people still run the Democratic Party, or do its elites?

    [ Parent ]

    Are you from MI? (none / 0) (#107)
    by samtaylor2 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes, I am. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Emma on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:32 PM EST
    And?

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe the Republicans will (none / 0) (#43)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:34:55 PM EST
    put enough out there on Obama between now and then to make the DNC require her to take it to the credentials committee.


    [ Parent ]
    It would only result in a swing of four votes (none / 0) (#89)
    by andrewwm on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:44:47 PM EST
    at most.

    The Clinton camp has now put themselves on record as calling the 1/2 vote solution ideal. They won't be able to walk that back at this point. The only argument they have is that Clinton should get 73, not 69, pledged delegates from Michigan (and remember, those 4 votes only count for 1/2).

    So she'd be appealing for an extra two pledged delegate votes. That's not going to change anything.

    [ Parent ]

    At this point, (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:05 PM EST
    while I want Clinton in the WH, I most certainly will not accept my vote for her being given to BO. It's no longer about the nominee at this point for me, it's my f'ing vote.

    [ Parent ]
    You can also thank (none / 0) (#149)
    by andrewwm on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:53:04 PM EST
    the Michigan Democratic Party for this. First, they screwed with their election date (yes, I know NH and that argument, but two wrongs don't make a right); then they proposed and pushed for this compromise. And Sandy Levin is for Clinton, so you can't say that they were Obamabots out to get Clinton either.

    [ Parent ]
    Trust me, I know (none / 0) (#164)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:55:15 PM EST
    exactly who is responsible for this. They are all a disgrace.

    [ Parent ]
    So it can go to (none / 0) (#103)
    by pie on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM EST
    the convention.

    Obama is slowly imploding.

    [ Parent ]

    It could have gone to the convention anyway (none / 0) (#127)
    by andrewwm on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:34 PM EST
    I'm not sure what she would expect to be changed at the convention after this though. She gets a couple of more votes, big deal. She's still going to be behind by a couple of hundred, give or take.

    [ Parent ]
    If it goes to the convention, (none / 0) (#181)
    by pie on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:58:46 PM EST
    I guarantee you that Obama will be looking bad by August.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree. Her campaign did not vote for (none / 0) (#182)
    by zfran on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:58:53 PM EST
    this split in the MI delegates. All the committee talked about was the rules. If the rules, or charter, do indeed say you cannot remove delegates from one candidate and give them to another, she has a case. Even 4 delegates is a case. Either you are consistant, or you are not.

    [ Parent ]
    Nope (none / 0) (#39)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:34:27 PM EST
    As I heard it, they've only at least publicly "reserved the right" to go to the credentials committee over Michigan, not Florida.


    [ Parent ]
    The "Michigan Compromise" (5.00 / 20) (#3)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    is vote theft plain and simple.  No ifs, ands or buts.

    The DNC just took the same path as the RNC.  However, I must agree with BTD.  Florida broke NO rules and was punished anyway, with respect to the Democratic party there.

    Donna Brazile, I hope you and "yo mamma" (her inflection NOT mine) live and die by your rules.  The amazing irony in all this IS Donna Brazile.  Yes Donna, your "message" that you wanted to send SOOOOO badly to Florida got through today.

    You and Obama will get THEIR message in November.

    Hats off to the a55hats at the DNC.  The unity pony was beat down today.

    Unity? We don't want no stinkin' unity... (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:39:15 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hey I'm sure (5.00 / 5) (#177)
    by cawaltz on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:58:07 PM EST
    the Dem pary will be unified, if unified while short about half of the people who will have left the party in disgust.

    [ Parent ]
    Please don't insult the RNC. (5.00 / 19) (#65)
    by ghost2 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:40:44 PM EST
    I am NOT kidding.  

    At least Bush by his first count had a lead of 537 votes.  As flawed as the process was, in the ususal count, he came ahead.

    Even Bush and Rove could never have the audacity of stealing votes that were cast and tabulated.

    Let be brutally honest.  What the democratic party has done in this primary election is a 100, maybe a 1000 times worse than what Bush did.

    The Democratic Party is a fraud.  It has no core principles.  You know, for the past 7-8 years, we have made excuses for them.  Every freaking step of the way.  Even longer than that.  Who stopped Hillary's healthcare plan in 1993?? Remember Democrats had the majority in both chambers, and the plan didn't make it out of the committee.  Great leadership by Kerry and Kennedy (insert deep, annoying voice of Kerry saying, "the two of us have 40 years of experience on healthcare").  Screw them.

    The whole thing is corrupt.  I guess, Nancy and her pals want to be top dogs, and don't want their stature and safey diminished by a strong president.  


    [ Parent ]

    For clarity (none / 0) (#132)
    by txpolitico67 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:50:00 PM EST
    I meant that the RNC and the DNC only awarded HALF of FL's delegates for moving up their primary this year.  I am not referencing anything from 2000.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly. (5.00 / 5) (#105)
    by lansing quaker on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:01 PM EST
    And I think more needs to be said on this than just typing.

    This Michiganian says NO to DNC and Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Excellent! (5.00 / 0) (#225)
    by stxabuela on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:12:26 PM EST
    Especially the "giving him free stuff" comment.  

    On a more serious note, I can only imagine how betrayed you must feel.  I was furious at the gaming of the TX caucuses by Team Obama.  Your anger must be exponentially greater.  

    [ Parent ]

    OT.. (none / 0) (#112)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:48:07 PM EST
    You and Eastern grad? I'm in Mason, kids a Bulldog.

    [ Parent ]
    The DNC can go Cheney themselves. (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by Shainzona on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:48:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I've said it before, Donna B was (5.00 / 0) (#197)
    by zfran on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:01:54 PM EST
    greatly affected by the 2000 election! So were so many who were intimitally involved. Wexler, apparently takes on the side he's for, not what's best for his state.

    [ Parent ]
    The Obama campaign (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by americanincanada on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    wanted far more than 4 delegates, BTD. They were actually arguing for a 50/50 split, remember?

    agreed (5.00 / 12) (#5)
    by Turkana on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:28:50 PM EST
    obama could have agreed to seat the delegates, or half the delegates, as voted on, taking a big 0 for himself, from michigan, and he'd still be the nominee. the possession of great intelligence does not always connote with the possession of great wisdom.

    That's not very reassuring Turkana. (5.00 / 13) (#36)
    by Teresa on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:33:52 PM EST
    I think Clinton's people knew they couldn't take the high road on FL. They'd come off looking like Obama looks regarding MI even though they would have had the "rules" on their side. They were not going to win period with the 100% argument.

    As for Michigan, Obama couldn't look worse after this. He supports vote stealing in my mind. On CNN, the reporter outside said the Obama supporters were very surprised that the Clinton supporters were that upset. I think his campaign is just as clueless in this case.

    [ Parent ]

    heh (5.00 / 5) (#55)
    by Turkana on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:37:45 PM EST
    i'm not trying to be reassuring...

    this could have been an easy win for obama, but this was not a win.

    [ Parent ]

    You know I like you. (4.90 / 10) (#128)
    by ghost2 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:40 PM EST
    I think if Obama gets elected, you'll have the emotional trajectory of Bush voters.  

    He is as arrogant, as clueless, and as entitled as Bush.

    Sorry to be so brutally honest.

    Put yourselves in the position of Republicans in 2000.  They thought it's time for change.  They thought this is a reasonable, moderate guy. They though he had smart advisors.  Voters generally like an 8/8 (as in years) split between the parties.

    Took 2 terms of Bush (and the tragedy of Katrina) for them to realize what they had bargained for.  

    I see that all tepid Obama supporters just say, OK let's just go for him.  BTD saying the press will be easier on him.  

    The press has been complicit in the worst events that has befallen the American democracy in the past 20 years (maybe more).  Saying you just trust things to work out well at the end is having your head buried in the sand.

    How could anyone stay a democrat after today?  

    my 2cents.

    [ Parent ]

    because, ultimately, (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Turkana on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:54:37 PM EST
    it's not about us or about the party. it's about the  iraqis and the americans in iraq. it's about torture. it's about domestic spying. it's about global warming. it's about stevens and ginsburg. it's about what's left of the constitution. on absolutely every issue, obama would be so much better than mccain that it's not even debatable.

    i do not think he will be anywhere close to being as good as his rapid supporters think he will be, but i also don't think he will be anywhere close to being as bad as his fiercest critics think he will be.

    [ Parent ]

    to be fair on this point (none / 0) (#12)
    by ksh on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:30:43 PM EST
    I don't think he could do that without knowing if Clinton would go to the convention or not.

    [ Parent ]
    irrelevant (5.00 / 8) (#34)
    by Turkana on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:33:42 PM EST
    it would have been such a unifying gesture, it would have absolutely destroyed her ability to build support for a convention challenge.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama should have done it weeks ago (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by andgarden on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:36:30 PM EST
    Never since January has Obama been behind in delegates. He had and has very little to fear--except for the possible perception that he is unelectable. (A bad day for this meeting, huh?)

    [ Parent ]
    until north carolina (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Turkana on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:39:31 PM EST
    i think there could have been some legitimate concern that his candidacy was faltering. when the demographics held true, revealing that clinton's seeming momentum had also been but a function of demographics, that's when he could have made his unifying move.

    [ Parent ]
    Intra-party politics (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Knocienz on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:46:25 PM EST
    A lot of the folks currently targeted for message crafting are not activists or voters looking for unifying gestures but super delegates looking to see who has control over the party and who is in a position to reward/punish their political ambitions.

    Giving Hillary everything she wanted would have been a win for her and would have signaled she still had control over the powers in the party.

    I suspect a convention challenge would still have occurred, it would just have been based on the big-states,popular-vote argument. Further, by giving her everything on the MI and FL primaries, folks would argue that Obama conceded that Michigan and Florida popular votes should be counted like every other vote.

    [ Parent ]

    Why? (none / 0) (#48)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:35:45 PM EST
    I don't think I follow.  Explain your thinking, please?


    [ Parent ]
    BTD... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Dr Molly on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:29:29 PM EST
    Why do you think Obama fought for those MI delegates when, as you say, he really gains nothing but more acrimony and division?

    What could he gain by this?

    Consolidation of power. Chuck Todd kept saying (5.00 / 10) (#119)
    by jawbone on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:48:42 PM EST
    over and over that it's now the Obama Dem Party.

    This is proof of his and/or Axelrod's control.

    I mean, in the Dem Party, stealing votes from a winner to give to someone not even on the ballot? How anti-Dem ideals can you get? Unless calling  decent Dem politicians racist and race-baiting is considered. That's probably worse. Or maybe on a par.

    [ Parent ]

    This whole exercise was all about Obama IMHO (5.00 / 0) (#238)
    by bridget on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:52:04 PM EST
    it was not about Michigan voters, it was not about Florida voters.

    This was basically an early Obama coronation to speed the whole nom process along to its known conlcusion. Did any of these members look as if they lost any sleep over it last night? I may have but not these folks.

    The Dem Party has made up it's mind long time ago that Obama will be the nominee. IMO there was not a single person in that whole group who didn't already know today's outcome yesterday and before that ... (who knows what they did during recess - play scrabble? ;-)

    The Dem party will not deny the nomination to the first African-American candidate. That's why the old guard, the Kerrys, the Kennedys, jumped on his bandwagon so fast immediately. Just listen again to Kerry's answer to the qs why he believes Obama is the best President for the US. And his answer had nothing to do with debates, policy issues, etc.

    Nothing and nobody can or will take the nom away from Obama. The whole procedure today was a waste of time really just like so many Senate hearings, and I wish I hadn't watched it on TV and cleaned my closets instead.

    I bet everyone around that table knew that Obama tried to block revotes. So to hear the Obama supporter Hyne (?) congratulate Obama for his leadership told me everything I needed to know: This was an Obama coronation. And it was also rude IMO.

    In response to all that went down Harold Ickes did the right thing but I doubt that Hillary will take it to Denver. What good will it do? Even a Clinton can't move this huge mountain.

    But maybe I am wrong. I hope so.

    [ Parent ]

    He imposed his will (none / 0) (#146)
    by Lahdee on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:52:36 PM EST
    pure and simple.

    [ Parent ]
    The ONLY mistakes were made by Obama (5.00 / 12) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:29:55 PM EST
    It's HIS General Election to lose.

    It's not Clinton's to win it for him.

    Unity my a$$... (5.00 / 21) (#9)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:30:16 PM EST
    My vote for Hillary in MI now may count for the idiot who removed his name from the ballot. How utterly stupid, and blatantly schemed to favor the chosen one.

    No longer a Democrat. Period.

    And no, I will no longer work for or vote for Barack Obama. Downticket only.

    No longer a Democrat? (1.16 / 6) (#75)
    by Melchizedek on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:43:00 PM EST
    Over this? BTD's right, we are a really stupid party.

    If only those who voted "Uncommitted" in MI could have had their vote actually count for Clinton (who's name was on the ballot), then we'd really have a party to be proud of...

    [ Parent ]

    Take it to the Bank! (5.00 / 9) (#125)
    by befuddledvoter on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:29 PM EST
    This is the worst thing the Rules Comm. could have done.  I could never bring myself to vote for Obama now.  I am not alone in this.  I am a progressive, educated person who is a lifelong Democrat.  The Democratic Party needs to be sent a message, loud and clear, and that message will come in November, delivered by Pres. John McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    You read that correctly. (5.00 / 4) (#156)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:53:55 PM EST
    Sorry if there may have been a typo, but the Democratic party no longer represents my ideals.

    Good luck in November.

    [ Parent ]

    November (none / 0) (#174)
    by joharmon86 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:57:16 PM EST
    Would you vote for Obama if Hillary was chosen as VP?

    [ Parent ]
    May I answer? (5.00 / 5) (#214)
    by Cate on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:06:16 PM EST
    No.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (5.00 / 11) (#13)
    by facta non verba on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:31:01 PM EST
    is so right. The party is destroyed over so little. A glance at the Clinton blogs, there is nothing but fury and determination. It amazes me and it inspires me.

    She's fighting (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by ChiTownDenny on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:31:01 PM EST
    the fight she can win.  If she fights both states' results, she just whining.  Now, agian, she is fighting to have voters be represented according to their votes.  

    Why I will not join in unity (5.00 / 15) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:31:13 PM EST
    cause I do not want the Obama wing to have this much power.  So, they need to be clipped.  They want absolute power, at the cost of the Party.  

    Here he is on TV blathering at a news conference about his idiotic faith.  Makes me sick.  

    Another Similarity To Bush (5.00 / 2) (#230)
    by creeper on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:17:13 PM EST
    They want absolute power...

    The more I learn of Barack Obama the more he reminds me of George W. Bush.

    How about a list?

    Delivers sweet speeches
    Struggles to form a coherent sentence without prompts
    Has limited experience
    Hates being crossed
    Claims God is on his side
    Is blind to his own negative impressions
    Pursues votes ruthlessly
    Creates his own reality

    What did I miss?

    [ Parent ]

    And guess who voted exactly the wrong way (5.00 / 11) (#17)
    by andgarden on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:31:19 PM EST
    every single time: hypocrite Donna Brazile.

    But, but she's uncommitted n/t (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Lahdee on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:54:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    To the truth clearly (none / 0) (#186)
    by Regency on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:59:14 PM EST
    If she has any committment to anything it's the voices in her head that remind her of what her mama said.

    [ Parent ]
    Donna Brazile (none / 0) (#183)
    by joharmon86 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:58:55 PM EST
    This focus on Donna Brazile bogels my mind. She only has one vote just like every other member of the committee. The decision made is not her fault and Sen. Obama had no control over the ruling either.

    [ Parent ]
    Donna Brazile started to earn (5.00 / 7) (#223)
    by TimNCGuy on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:12:13 PM EST
    this hatred the moment she intentionally twisted Bill Clinton's "fairy tale" comment and claimed it was racist.  At that moment she should have been admonishing Michelle Obama for twisting that comment and instead, she joied in with her.

    Brazile should be drummed out of the DNC for her behavior.

    [ Parent ]

    The reason for the focus (5.00 / 5) (#228)
    by suki on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:13:04 PM EST
    on Donna Brazile is because of numerous divisive statements she's made since this primary began.
    All completely unnecessary, IMO.
    You can pretend otherwise of course.

    [ Parent ]
    Not sure about Clinton and Obama... (5.00 / 18) (#21)
    by OrangeFur on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:32:01 PM EST
    ... but what the RBC did today is an utter travesty. It's something you'd expect a Communist elections bureau to do when announcing their "official results".

    This makes the 2000 Supreme Court decision on Bush v. Gore look rational by comparison. There at least the decision was based on some actual vote totals.

    I do think the biggest thing Clinton gained today was legitimacy of the Florida popular vote.

    I would like to know (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:32:17 PM EST
    what the Clinton campaign's rationale for this was. I can't figure it out, which I have to assume means there's some piece of behind-the-scenes info we simply don't have.

    The Clinton people have at crucial times made some very bad decisions, but they've had six months to think about this one, yet it looks like some hasty, ill-thought-out, last-minute decision from the outside where we all sit.  I don't think it could have been, so I'm left wondering what it is we don't know about.

    I hope the question of why they did it this way will at least be asked at the next conference call. (hint, hint)

    I'm beginning to believe the narrative (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by andgarden on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:33:23 PM EST
    that they actually wanted the ambiguity around Michigan.

    [ Parent ]
    But they fought for Michigan (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:46:25 PM EST
    as BTD keeps pointing out.  It was Florida they didn't fight for.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe, just maybe (none / 0) (#129)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:45 PM EST
    it's because that is identical to the Republican punishment.

    Just guessing.


    [ Parent ]

    Honestly, I think the Obama people felt (none / 0) (#209)
    by Seth90212 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:05:15 PM EST
    they would've been very competitive in MI, maybe even come out victorious. They recognized that Clinton would've won FL by at least 10.

    [ Parent ]
    My understanding is (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:33:58 PM EST
    No matter what they did, Obama had already won.


    [ Parent ]
    I concede that (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:21 PM EST
    Believe it or not, I still care DEEPLY about the principle of the thing.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Edgar08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:01 PM EST
    That's why I value the principle argument presented.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama hasn't won anything. (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by pie on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:50:15 PM EST
    We need a candidate that can win in November.

    [ Parent ]
    Let's just say (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Edgar08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:53:24 PM EST
    The people criticizing Clinton's role in this, they're the ones who believe she has already lost.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, why would Clinton want to (5.00 / 0) (#226)
    by zfran on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:12:35 PM EST
    alienate the party at this stage. She accepted a deal, won the popular vote, is threatening to take this to the convention and got the winning delegate count moved upwards. Given that fact that (it looked) it seemed so many Obama supporters on the committee, she worked out what she could. I had hoped she'd come stormin' in to fight for each and every vote personally, but then she would have lost everything. She doesn't have the power to wield. What should she have done.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know why Obama's decision (5.00 / 7) (#26)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:32:54 PM EST
    surprises you. It was in keeping with his theme throughout this process.

    Obama will say and do anything to win. It is important that he be given the TV coverage that shows him for who he really is. There is still time between now and the convention to make sure he doesn't become the nominee.  Those SD commitments can go to the other side and he failed to take the nomination with pledged delegates.

    His campaign needs to go to convention. And it needs to lose. I really don't understand his supporters and why they feel the need to be so threatening.


    But why make himself look this bad (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Dr Molly on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:39:59 PM EST
    when he doesn't need to do this to win (as his obnoxious supporters keep reminding us ad nauseum - he's already won THE MATH)? I don't get it, JCP.

    [ Parent ]
    I think he's just lazy (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:48:07 PM EST
    and has attached himself to some really vile people who are looking to get a puppet in a position of great power. Obama just lets them do what they need to while he convinces himself he's the best thing to happen to this country since JFK.

    It's his supporters who are threatening riots at the convention, and shout down Clinton supporters. That is the kind of administration we would have to live with for four years if he were to win the GE.

    It would take decades for the democratic party to recover from an Obama administration.


    [ Parent ]

    We're Going To The Convention....I would (5.00 / 7) (#31)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:33:25 PM EST
    have to venture a guess that Hillary and Bill are several steps ahead of us in what they have plotted out.  This reminds me of a chess game.  And never, ever underestimate Hillary.

    It could be worse. (5.00 / 8) (#45)
    by Fabian on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:35:38 PM EST
    I was having problems accessing this site, so I went to the big orange where I could see the entire spectrum of the rainbow in the comment threads.

    The diary was about "Hillary supporters" but it's likely the phenomena wasn't restricted to one diary.

    Just useless cheerleading and bashing with nary a concern where this leads the party in the present and short term and long term futures.  Why do I get the feeling that I'm watching a Warner Bros cartoon where one character charges up to the barricaded door only to have swing open at the last second and the hapless character charges straight through the door and over a cliff.

    A whole lotta emotion and momentum and not a plan in sight.

    That was an amazing analogy (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by coolit on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:51:47 PM EST
    haha.

    "a Warner Bros cartoon where one character charges up to the barricaded door only to have swing open at the last second and the hapless character charges straight through the door and over a cliff."

    The image is worth a laugh.... or cry

    [ Parent ]

    Why do you think Obama fought for those MI delegat (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by camellia on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:36:30 PM EST
    es?" ........  Ummmmm.  Vanity?  Need to reconfirm his position as leader?  Step on the face of this uppity woman?  

    This man is an arriviste, a poseur, an opportunist.  He has found the perfect time for him in history -- Dems want a victory so much in November that some of us will compromise any values, sell out any principles, to ensure that victory.  We hope.  

    MI is the most egregious violation of democracy (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by jfung79 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:37:06 PM EST
    I can understand the Clinton camp focusing on taking the Michigan case to the credentials committee because at least there was some basis in actual voters for the Florida decision by the RBC.  The Clinton supporters fought hard for fully seating Florida but lost the vote 15-12.  It's not something to agree with, but not as egregious a violation of principle.  On the other hand, the allocation of the Michigan delegates is practically pulled out of thin air and has no basis in votes.

    i hate to state the obvious, but (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by cy street on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:37:26 PM EST
    the republicans did the same thing almost in advance.  they have a nominee and they are preparing for the general.  

    you take on the four delegates resonates with me.  however, the clinton supporters that are lost are lost already.  team obama is looking at a razor's edge in electoral math as it is with the "clinton" defections.  in comparison to "00 and "04 though, his chances are far better.  

    today, if anything, puts unity to rest.  there will not be any such thing.  the house of clinton has bended their last argument with no change in the outcome.

    as i predicted, post wisconsin, the results after tuesday will leave obama needing a/some dozen/s of delegates, while clinton will need hundreds.

    the race has not changed since, give or take twenty delegates.  this has been all for not and the only question outstanding is:  as the supporters of clinton leave the party, will she?

    I'd venture a guess (5.00 / 14) (#70)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:41:34 PM EST
    and say that:

    the clinton supporters that are lost are lost already

    that number grew by a large number today.

    [ Parent ]

    most likely the number will grow (1.00 / 1) (#114)
    by cy street on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:48:07 PM EST
    higher than that.  now that the party has opted for new leadership, it is on the new leader to replenish those lost with new members and grow beyond the failed coalition of the past twelve years.

    the hill is steep and the stakes are high, but i back obama fully and completely to go where clinton, gore and kerry never did, wide majorities in both houses and a bipartisan white house.

    if not, i hope mccain brings all those new jobs to central pennsylvania he is about to start promising.

    [ Parent ]

    What? (5.00 / 4) (#138)
    by OrangeFur on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:51:21 PM EST
    A bipartisan White House? What does that mean?

    [ Parent ]
    Good grief. (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by pie on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:55:48 PM EST
    the hill is steep and the stakes are high, but i back obama fully and completely to go where clinton, gore and kerry never did, wide majorities in both houses and a bipartisan white house.

    Heh.  Well, we've all been disappointed.  I expect you will be too.

    [ Parent ]

    i voted for all three, including bill twice. (1.00 / 1) (#189)
    by cy street on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:00:16 PM EST
    i voted for hillary too, but the decision to abandon wisconsin was the turning point and nothing has changed since.  the math is not popular in these discussions, but nothing has really changed since then.

    obama is the presumptive nominee.  i lost and i accepted long ago.

    i will do everything possible to elect him and democrats of all regions in november.

    [ Parent ]

    A few points of disagreement... (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by OrangeFur on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:44:11 PM EST
    Clinton will not leave the party.

    The Clinton supporters are not yet lost. I'm struggling with the decision every day. At times I can't believe that I'm even considering not voting for the Democratic nominee, and at other times (such as right now) I'm so angry that it takes conscious effort not to write a rude two-word note on the latest DCCC fundraising letter and send it back to them.

    And the damage is not done only at the presidential voting level. Whether or not I end up voting for Obama if he's the nominee, I'm certainly not giving any money to the DNC, DCCC, or DSCC this cycle. They can all go straight to [heck] as far as I'm concerned.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course she won't (5.00 / 8) (#143)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:52:13 PM EST
    What a stupid question.  She's devoted her life to the party.  It's her JOB.

    We, on the other hand, have only voted Democratic all our adult lives.  It's not our job.  We are free agents.

    And if you think Obama's chances are "far better" than 00 and 04, I'd like to have some of what you're smoking.

    [ Parent ]

    For want of 4 delegates (5.00 / 8) (#67)
    by janarchy on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:41:10 PM EST
    a party was lost. I really hope everyone's happy now.

    And call me a tinfoil hat paranoid but does anyone think that it's a coincidence that Obama's leaving the church today happened at the same time as the RBC was making decisions? Backroom deals, anyone?

    Trying to bury the (5.00 / 7) (#73)
    by dskinner3 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:42:26 PM EST
    fact that he STOLE (or was handed) delegates he DID NOT EARN!

    [ Parent ]
    I wondered (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by janarchy on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:50:21 PM EST
    if the deal was that if he threw the church under the bus, they'd do the deal for him. If not, they might be inclined to side more with Hillary.

    I don't know any more. All I know is the Democratic Party is dead to me. This is not the political party I want to be affiliated with. The voters should count before any candidate, any rules, any bureaucracy. It's just wrong, plain and simple.

    Luckily some people on that committee knew it. Just not enough.

    [ Parent ]

    If they wanted unity Obama (5.00 / 12) (#68)
    by masslib on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:41:18 PM EST
    should not have fought for four lousy delegates.  He's a sore winner.  Eff Unity.

    Yes, aside from everything else (5.00 / 7) (#90)
    by Valhalla on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:45:11 PM EST
    that bothers me about Obama is that he is not a gracious winner.  I think that being gracious in defeat is an admirable trait, being gracious in victory is ... a minimum requirement to a claim to have any character at all.

    [ Parent ]
    Gracious (1.00 / 3) (#201)
    by joharmon86 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:03:03 PM EST
    How is Obama not a gracious winner? You just say stuff with nothing to support it.

    [ Parent ]
    The MDP (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by OrangeFur on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:17 PM EST
    has no more power to reallocate the votes than I do.

    Votes belong to the voters, not to anyone else.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh come on.... (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by masslib on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:49:11 PM EST
    You don't honestly believe Obama had nothing to fo with that?  Foolish and silly.

    [ Parent ]
    They thanked him in the last few minutes (5.00 / 5) (#191)
    by ruffian on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:00:38 PM EST
    for helping forge that 'compromise'.  Of course he had a lot to do with it.

    [ Parent ]
    An indictment of the party and progressives... (5.00 / 14) (#71)
    by Oje on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:41:55 PM EST
    For the Democratic party, they exposed themselves as no better than Republican party of 2000. A ruling committee invokes rules in ways that massage a desired outcome for a particular candidate, and violate rules and precedents in the process. It punishes a state (Florida) for a "beauty contest" of the DNC's own making. Then, a state party (Michigan) that jeopardized the will of primary voters by its own actions in the state house is rewarded with the power to divide its pledged delegates in whatever manner it desires.

    Additionally, the outcome today seems like a classic political atrophy for the progressive blogosphere. The progressive blogs came into existence accusing the inner workings of the Democratic party as undemocratic. Today, it lauds the party's ability to direct undemocratic outcomes to the ends that progressive bloggers desire. It is classic Republican dittohead political action: the progressive blogs accuse the Clintons of undemocratic intentions, then orchestrate and cheer on an undemocratic outcome against Hillary Clinton as the "appropriate" response. Nevermind that the Hillary Clinton, in all of the DNC's rulings, has suffered at every step and never at any step violated the spirit of democracy.

    My wife and I are apoplectic. We have decided to cut off funding for the Democratic party due to its actions here. While I regard the "party savior" hope a ridiculous position to take, I cannot help but dream that Al Gore will step forward to question the actions of the rulings made by the DNC today. Democrats surrendered the high-ground on all disputes of enfranchisement in their own party and in our country by its own abuse of rules and principles for democratic representation - and the party did this in the name of "the rules." That committee is a travesty of party democracy and representation.

    I haven't seen anyone actually TRY! (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Fabian on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:41:58 PM EST
    I'm waiting for one serious, good faith, no preconditions attempt at Unity.

    What is Obama Afraid Of? (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by DaleA on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:42:30 PM EST
    If he is as close to the nomination as his supporters claim, why grab the four delegates? This makes no sense unless there is something else going on. Could be very big news that would shake a lot of his delegates lose. No clue here. Just amazed at the spectacle on TV.

    What's the filing deadline for Wexler's (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by andgarden on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:43:29 PM EST
    seat?

    [ Parent ]
    This wasn't Obama's plan (none / 0) (#185)
    by Mavs4527 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:59:10 PM EST
    He wanted an even split of the delegates from Michigan. This was a plan from the Michigan Democratic Party and a resounding majority of Rules Committee members voted in favor of it.

    I should ask you whether you wish to push the Democratic Party into chaos over a question of 4 delegates?

    [ Parent ]

    What's with 'push'? (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by DaleA on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:05:43 PM EST
    We are already there. This simply stirs the pot even more. And probably will make matters even worse.

    [ Parent ]
    Is he gonna turn down his illegal delegates? (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Teresa on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:43:02 PM EST
    At the very least, his fighting for delegates in MI has to put the popular vote into play in some way. Whatever percent they use, you can't ignore the voters if your counting the delegates.

    Those delegates were legalized today (1.71 / 7) (#91)
    by Seth90212 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:45:13 PM EST
    That was the whole point of this exercise, to come to a reasonably accommodation whereby those delegates could be brought in from the cold.

    [ Parent ]
    Stop using the wrong word (5.00 / 10) (#111)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:47:58 PM EST
    Legal is the wrong word.

    the delegates were recognized today in an exercise of rule breaking by the RBC.

    I wish people could be honest and rational about this.

    [ Parent ]

    Seth90212 has been disrupting the threads (5.00 / 0) (#155)
    by JavaCityPal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:53:48 PM EST
    most of the day.

    [ Parent ]
    And I've done it by only commenting on 2 (1.00 / 3) (#170)
    by Seth90212 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:56:14 PM EST
    threads all day (including this one). Quite a feat huh?

    [ Parent ]
    A kind word from me for Bill Nelson (5.00 / 8) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:43:15 PM EST
    who did an extraordinarily good job in presenting the case for Florida.

    Indeed (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by andgarden on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:44:40 PM EST
    And you can tell that he wanted to make the safe harbor argument, as he has been doing since last summer.

    [ Parent ]
    This is Obama blog nonsense (5.00 / 16) (#83)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:43:54 PM EST
    Everybody who spoke acknowledged that essentially all the "uncommitted" delegates would be Obama supporters.  It's a technical matter only.

    My opinion-- he who takes his name off the ballot doesn't get delegates officially committed to suporting him, period.  He tried a stunt, it failed, he should pay at least a small price.

    I would like that to be reflected at least technically in the formal designation of those delegates as uncommitted, even though we all know the party people in Michigan are arranged it so Obama would get to pick the "uncommitted" delegates.

    This is a GD banana republic we've got in the Democratic Party right now, but at least we could TRY to observe the proprieties.

    And to echo BTD for the zillionth time, WHY does Obama insist on this crap when he has to know it just further alienates Dem. voters?

    That's the big mystery to me.


    It's not up to Obama (1.00 / 4) (#151)
    by joharmon86 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 07:53:20 PM EST
    Do people not understand that despite their conspiracy theories that suggest otherwise, this wasn't up to Obama. This was up to the committee and the groups that had the most influence over the committee were the state parties. The solutions supported by both state parties were adopted by the committee. While they took into account Obama's supporters and Clinton's supporters, the committee's decision was based ultimately on what the state parties wanted. The Senators that presented (Nelson and Levin) were both supportive of Clinton (Nelson declared and Levin Clinton-leaning). The ultimate decision made was accepted by both parties and even proposed by both parties. Even Clinton issued a statement which confirmed that she felt Florida's decision was fair and a "VICTORY." Obviously, Clinton herself and her campaign are  on another page than Clinton supporters. The reality is that the rules stated that they should be totally stripped of their delegates and the fact that Clinton got anything out of this frankly is a miracle for her campaign because it pushes back the number Obama needs to secure the nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL, you make Obama sound so helpless. (5.00 / 5) (#199)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:02:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Once Again (1.00 / 1) (#213)
    by joharmon86 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:05:55 PM EST
    You don't provide anything substantive in response.

    [ Parent ]
    The R&B overrode (none / 0) (#216)
    by waldenpond on Sat May 31, 2008 at 08:06:36 PM EST
    the State law didn't they?  I thought they said that uncommitted was a legally recognized option in their state?  I must have misunderstood because I don't see how the party could override the State's election law.  

    Anyone know what happened?

    [ Parent ]