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Clinton MI/FL Media Call Live Blog

A heads up. At Noon EST, I will be live blogging the Clinton conference call on the May 31 DNC Rules and Bylaw Committee hearing on the Florida/Michigan Fiasco.

Let me tell you the question I hope to ask

In reading the DNC Staff Memo on the FL/MI situation, I noticed it did not discuss some critical issues. First, it did not address Florida's argument that it was entitled to a "waiver" or "safe harbor" pursuant to Rule 21. Second, it did not discuss the validity of the RBC's granting of "waivers" or "safe harbors" to Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina for violating Rule 11, the primary schedule rule. At the same time the memo stated that a 50% penalty was the automatic and mandatory penalty for violating Rule 11. Can you explain to me the Clinton campaign view on this seeming contradictions in the treatment of Florida and Michigan as compared to Iowa, NH and South Carolina? As you know, Michigan has submitted a letter which emphasizes its objections to this unequal treatment. If the DNC Staff argument is that the RBC does not have unfettered power to reinstate the Florida and Michigan delegations, isn't the logical conclusion then that the RBC did not have the power to grant waivers to Iowa, NH and South Carolina, and thus their delegations must also suffer the 50% penalty?

The live blog will be below the fold.

By Big Tent Democrat

Harold Ickes - "We are preparing for tomorrow's RBC meeting. We expect full attendance. Two chairs, Herman and Roosevelt do not vote unless there is a tie. Two formal challenges have been filed - one by Michigan's MDP. And one by Ausmann - of Florida.

On Michigan - Sen Levin will speak for Michigan Dem Party, Former Gov. Jim Blanchard will speak for Clinton.

On Florida - Ausmann will speak. For Florida Dem Party, Bill Nelson will speak. For Clinton Joyner from Tampa will speak.

Flourtnoy presents standard Clinton position.

Alegre asked a question similar to mine. Flourtnoy says my argument was wrong, that the waivers were fine and that only FL and Mi broke the rules. I find her argument unconvincing and I am eager to ask a question now.

Flourtnoy just conceded the argument. Clinton is now arguing that there can be no more than a 50% seating of the Florida and Michigan delegations.

frankly, I am flummoxed.

Huff Po asks do you want the RBC to throw you into the briar patch and not award all the delegates? the question seems credible to me no because Flountroy is arguing for 50% seating.

I asked for clarification on Flountroy's answer. Ickes REITERATED that it is the Clinton position that the positions of Iowa, NH, and SC are completely different than that of Florida and Michigan and that Iowa, NH and SC acted fully within the rules but Florida and Michigan did not. therefore, there was NO SELECTIVE enforcement by the DNC. He rejected Florida's argument that it was entitled to a safe harbor and he stated EXPRESSLY that the Clinton campaign does NOT agree with the position taken by the Michigan Democratic Party.

He did say that he disagreed with the implication of the DNC Memo that the RBC only has the power to seat 50% of the delegations, that only the Credentials Committee can fully seat the deleation. When I asked him if it cannot be done by "waiver" or "safe harbor," then what power does the RNC have here. He said "because it does."

Let me say that that strikes me as an unconvincing argument. I am amazed.

I do not see the Clinton argument now. Heck, I think they made the Donna Brazile argument today. I do not understand their logic.

The DNC NOW has the high road. they can say Michigan and Florida broke the rules, even Clinton agrees, so we have to penalize them. We will seat 50% of the delegates because FL and MI are important. And by doing so we have counted the votes.

I must say I am nonplussed. As an attorney, I have no idea what this is supposed to accomplish now.

I am signing off the call.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Ask them if a nomination that does NOT include (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Exeter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:38:35 AM EST
    Florida and Michigan weighing in, is valid.  Considering that FL and MI have the equivelant population of 19 smaller states-- and it would be a no-brainer that a nomination that didn't include 19 states would be invalid-- I think its an important question.  

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:07:18 AM EST
    The citizens of FL and MI would too, I would think.

    Parent
    The removal of their vote for a few... (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Salo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM EST
    ...months has transformed the race.  If Florida had been left alone you'd have seen a very, very different out come.

    So in fact th eresults do not include Florida in a very profound and disturbing way.

    Parent

    Lost Value of Victories (none / 0) (#54)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:38:34 AM EST
    Hillary lost the time value of her victories - in a sense, the "political interest" that accrues to early victories and is compounded with later ones.

    Parent
    ALERT (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by LauraInCali on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:47:04 AM EST
    ACTION ALERT!!!!PLEASE EVRYONE GO TO COUNT ALL THE VOTES CAST AND SIGN THE LETTER TO DNC...TIME IS RUNNING OUT! DO IT NOW!!!

    http://www.countthevotescast.org/letter.php

    Thanks! Signed it... (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:09:25 AM EST
    The larger message is right on target.

    Parent
    Done (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by suisser on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:14:35 AM EST
    also signed the letter on HRC's website.  And have my voter registration/re-registration card in hand. It arrived in the mail the same day as my new HRC bumper sticker and badges, how well that worked out.

    Parent
    thanks i have already done that. (none / 0) (#23)
    by hellothere on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:10:46 AM EST
    we need more signatures.

    Parent
    Did too plus two roommates (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by felizarte on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:02:56 PM EST
    I just signed it and shot off a letter to the DNC (none / 0) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:43:31 AM EST
    I hope you have this posted at MANY websites.  You might even want to post it in the political sections of Craigslist.

    Parent
    I want to sign it, but am I too (5.00 / 0) (#67)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:50:43 AM EST
    stuck on he took his name off of the MI ballot by choice and shouldn't get anything. Also, he advertised in FL and s/b penalized there as well.

    Parent
    I was listening to (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:47:50 AM EST
    NPR yesterday and this guy said MI and FL account for almost 10% of the total delegates (not sure if that includes supers).  If one doesn't think these delegations were ignored to hobble Hillary's chances, I have a nice bridge to sell them.  

    MI & FL Delegates (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by pcronin on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:35:06 PM EST
    There are a total of 4417 Delegates with MI & FL included.

    MI: 157  
    FL: 210

    So 367/4417 = 8.3% of total delegates.

    Those 2 states also cast 2,345,000 votes - so prox. 7% of the total vote.

    MI & FL votes were 2 times greater than all 13 caucus states combined [note that Obama won 12 of the 13 caucuses].
     --peniel

    Parent

    So... (none / 0) (#74)
    by mindfulmission on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:52:07 AM EST
    ... Harold Ickes wanted to "hobble Hillary's chances?"

    Interesting.

    Parent

    Now (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:52:54 AM EST
    On FOX just now - James Roosevelt, chair of RBC, citing "illegal primaries that violated the law" - WTF?  

    These are party rules, and they are not always enforced.

    We're close to selective prosecution of some states and not others, to continue the analogy.

    Athena I am convinced that.... (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:59:43 AM EST
    ...they are going to do it their way. They are going to strong arm the process. The only choice left to us, I'm afraid, is whether or not to reward their behavior by falling in line behind what they decide for us.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:02:19 AM EST
    That may be - but it's our job to point out the utterly arbitrary and selective application of the rules.

    In that way, their actions lose credibility and legitimacy.

    Parent

    And we all have to keep going after them... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:07:10 AM EST
    They cannot continue to weasel if we bring them into the sunlight...keep squeakin'....the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

    Parent
    One other choice (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Valhalla on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:16:55 AM EST
    is to support Clinton taking it to the convention.

    Besides having electibility on her side and the right side of the MI/FL argument if the RBC does the wrong thing, Clinton still has significant support of both Democrats and the general voting public.  She gets stronger as time goes on while he gets weaker.  

    Just because most of the SDs fail to realize that in the end it's all about the GE, doesn't mean we should give up.  I just keep thinking it's like he's won one Olympic trial and is now claiming the gold medal.

    (Maria, I'm not contradicting you, just adding).

    Parent

    Valhalla, I appreciate that option. (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:21:42 AM EST
    It's going to be hard for her to stay in though. No primaries. Obama will be crowned by Dean, Brazile, Pelosi, et al. I've read some people have suggested she suspend her campaign. Does that give her the option to take it to the convention?

    Parent
    Yes, it does. (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:28:00 AM EST
    She can suspend, then re-activate any time.

    If the DNC doesn't count MI and FL, she has an ironclad reason to take it to the convention - she was hinting she'd do that way back in January.

    Parent

    All the Way to August (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:36:00 AM EST
    Suspend at least.  Don't quit. I expect Hillary to be a candidate at the convention in Denver on Women's Equality Day, August 26, commemorating women winning the right to vote.

    It makes no sense for her to go anywhere.  Her political power is actually expanding as the nomination fiasco is engineered for Obama.

    Parent

    Why suspend (none / 0) (#78)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:02 AM EST
    at all?  I know it's tradition to suspend, but this is unusual.  Two have never been this close.  Keeps him from claiming the nom.  She said she would take it to convention if FL/MI weren't treated fairly so it will depend on how they are dealt with.  

    Carville sure backed off this weekend that a nom would be picked after the primaries finished.  His argument for Clinton-popular vote (she really needs to pull this off), polls, needed states and superior moral position on FL/MI.  His best statement... no matter who's president, we'll have a Dem Congress (I surprised Obama supporters didn't jump on that one!)

    Parent

    If he reaches the number of delegates (none / 0) (#106)
    by independent voter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:04:58 PM EST
    needed to secure the nomination, I do not understand how anyone can "keep him from claiming" it, or why anyone would want to. If tensions are running high now, how would that help heal divisions?

    Parent
    Because (none / 0) (#109)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:07:00 PM EST
    claiming it without MI and FL is illegitimate.

    You think an illegitimate claim of victory will reduce tensions?

    Would you like a cookie with that Kool-Aid?

    Parent

    Also as Jeralyn has said many times (none / 0) (#122)
    by Valhalla on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:13:22 PM EST
    the SDs do not vote until the convention.  They can change their 'commitments' at any time.

    He hasn't won anything yet.

    Parent

    So your position is that (none / 0) (#145)
    by independent voter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:41:09 PM EST
    the SDs will be backing Clinton at the convention, but...what....are not willing to do it now??? Do you even read what you write? How does that make any sense at all???

    Parent
    Hold the show. When the RBC (none / 0) (#130)
    by independent voter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:16:00 PM EST
    hears the cases and resolves the FL/MI situation, you will not be able to use that argument anymore. Even the Clinton campaign is not expecting a full seating.
    Thanks for the condescending attitude, 'preciate it!

    Parent
    Small correction for you (none / 0) (#141)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:33:14 PM EST
    You have bought and the media has pandered to Obama's LIE that pledged delegates are the deciding metric.  I've said it before, I will say it again.... it is a LIE.  If Obama was over the 2210 with pledged delegates, I would say Clinton should suspend.   FL/MI should be sat as is, then do the count.  Of course, the uncommitted have been selected in MI and are voting for Obama.  If he is at 2210, then Clinton should suspend.

    The FACT is neither was strong enough to get over the finish line on their own and the SDs will decide it AT CONVENTION.

    Another pt... some of us could care less about healing divisions for Obama that he created.  Obama broke it, he can attempt to fix it.  Obama doesn't have it in him, he's lack of character has been exposed.

    Parent

    NYTimes pol reporter on WNYC said suspending (none / 0) (#115)
    by jawbone on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:09:27 PM EST
    permits candidate to continue to raise funds, which could be important for Clinton. Also keeps her campaign viable for convention.

    Parent
    I think another benefit to her would be..... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:14:12 PM EST
    ...that it would take the focus off of her for while by forcing Obama to run against McCain for a while. Let's see what he can do when he isn't unifying his base with Clinton hate.

    Parent
    He must have been really nervous (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:33:08 AM EST
    he even called the rules "Laws".

    The man who followed him was brilliant, though. He was very articulate in that giving Obama any of the delegates from Hillary's votes in MI was absurd, and he was very clear about why Obama took his name off the ballot and why that motivation does not deserve to be rewarded.


    Parent

    He oughta be. His mother's ghost (none / 0) (#88)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:58:18 AM EST
    must be whispering in his ear.  ER, whom HRC has said is her role model, would not be happy about so many aspects of this.

    Parent
    Wasn't sure if he was related (none / 0) (#114)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:09:09 PM EST
    mother, or grandmother? He didn't appear old enough to be her son.

    Parent
    Equal Protection (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Athena on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:56:41 AM EST
    BTD - this theme lines up with Bush v. Gore - unequal treatment of voters in prosecuted and non-prosecuted states.

    What are MI and FL the only outlaws here?


    One thing the rules committee should be looking at (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Salo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:02:21 AM EST
    is the way they have allowed the media to insimuate themselves into the internal election process of the party. It seems perverse to me to have Dan Abrams, Chris Matthews and Keith Olbermann are creating legitimacy for one or another argument in a process that they are not part of.  The Party doesn't need their approval in the nomination process.  Really.

    I think the Party (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:12:42 AM EST
    couldn't be happier about a Democrat finally getting some good media.

    Yes, they are that clueless.

    Parent

    Yep, it's complacency that goeth (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:50:55 AM EST
    before the fall -- in the fall.  But we're already seeing the media dwelling on the stumbles.  It's only a bit, but it's a telling beginning of ugliness to come.

    Parent
    The MCM ... and the Republicans (FL at least) (none / 0) (#123)
    by jawbone on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:14:04 PM EST
    Ask them if a nomination that does NOT include (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Exeter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:09:29 AM EST
    Florida and Michigan weighing in, is valid.  Considering that FL and MI have the equivelant population of 19 smaller states-- and it would be a no-brainer that a nomination that didn't include 19 states would be invalid-- I think its an important question.  

    there is a march by clinton supporters (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by hellothere on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:12:41 AM EST
    in washington tomorrow. 10,000 was what i heard.

    That's awesome! I hope it's more though... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:14:38 AM EST
    because whatever the number is, the MCM will massively under-report it.

    Sorry guys - I'm a Debbie Downer today. :-(

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#70)
    by Panhandle on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:51:20 AM EST
    The traditional media under-reports any march. They've done it so many times in the last eight years. That way they can dismiss any protestors as just some crazy radicals...

    Parent
    Someone on Fox asked Wolfson (none / 0) (#120)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:11:31 PM EST
    this morning what the point of the marches were. He was great. How could he possibly answer that, the campaign didn't organize them. He told her twice she'd have to ask the people who showed up what prompted their decision.


    Parent
    But of Course (none / 0) (#144)
    by The Maven on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:36:10 PM EST
    on the national CBS Radio news this morning, it was specifically described as "the Clinton campaign is planning a large protest in Washington, D.C., tomorrow".  Nice how it's being portrayed as an official campaign event.  I've come to expect this kind of shoddy reporting that slants the coverage even before an event takes place, and I'm appalled that so few people (present company excepted) are willing to call them on it.

    Parent
    I spoke to a colleague yesterday (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:14:32 AM EST
    a disaffected conservative, as it happens, who has supported Obama since day one.

    He told me that he really didn't understand what the Democrats were doing with FL and MI.  "How could you possibly consider just leaving those states out?" he asked.

    This isn't FL or MI, this is Wall Street.  And the guy is an Obama supporter, he has no partisan interest in seating those two states.

    People really do care about this stuff.  I hope they find a way to do the right thing.

    You should explain to him that (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Salo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:25:18 AM EST
    obama would have lost handily if Michigan and florida had been counted the same day they voted.

    Parent
    the nomination would have been Clinton's long ago.

    Parent
    Go BTD! (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:17:54 AM EST
    Take it to 'em!

    Alegre asked a question similar to mine. Flourtnoy says my argument was wrong, that the waivers were. I find her argument unconvincing and I am eager to ask a question now.



    jokers (5.00 / 5) (#36)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:23:15 AM EST
    Alegre asked a question similar to mine. Flourtnoy says my argument was wrong, that the waivers were.

    sounds like the Clinton legal team is the same bunch of jokers Gore used in Florida...

    That'a misread of that battle (none / 0) (#80)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:21 AM EST
    and what you're seeing now ought to better inform you.  The media attacks on Gore's efforts then, the refusal of Dem leadership to back him -- there were a few brave souls in Congress, but Kennedy, Kerry, and other powers would not come forward as needed -- make the current mess very deja vu.

    Parent
    sorry.... (none / 0) (#105)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:04:44 PM EST
    but unlike the Bush team, the Gore legal team was far more concerned with public perception of what they were doing than in accomplishing their goals.

    There was one (two?) county in which there was indisputable evidence that absentee ballots had been mishandled and tampered with --- and the Gore team itself made no effor to have those ballots disqualified because they were more concerned with the "count every vote" messaging than with playing legal hardball.

    Parent

    You seem (none / 0) (#142)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:34:12 PM EST
    not to understand this is a political battle.

    Parent
    Semi-OT.... (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:23:58 AM EST
    Clinton still has a 100% chance of winning the GE against John McCain, garnering 322 projected electoral votes.

    Notice which of the two disputed states is blue.

    [whistles casually]

    Who is Flourtnoy? (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by oculus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:30:44 AM EST


    Are they giving up? (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:31:38 AM EST
    Just the other day they said they would accept nothing less than 100% restoration.

    Sounds like it (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:33:47 AM EST
    Odd... (none / 0) (#49)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:35:18 AM EST
    there has to be another card up their sleeves then. Some other strategy on their minds.

    Parent
    I'm at a loss (none / 0) (#52)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:36:23 AM EST
    Sounds like February again: they have no strategy. It's over.

    Parent
    There's still ... (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Robot Porter on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:52:18 AM EST
    If they're conceding Florida (none / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:10 AM EST
    it doesn't matter. They are finished.

    It turns out that Hillary did not really care to fight for Florida.

    Parent

    I hope this is a rope a dope or (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:56:16 AM EST
    something, otherwise I am seriously disappointed in Clinton for not fighting for the full delegation.

    Parent
    What... (none / 0) (#92)
    by mindfulmission on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:00:13 PM EST
    ...are the going to say?

    That they agreed with the decision, and believe that  they broke the rules, and that we believe only 50% of the delegates should be seated, but even though we agree with all of that, it hurts Hillary so we are going to appeal?

    Parent

    I hope not. I'm hoping the strategy here (none / 0) (#62)
    by vicndabx on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:48:07 AM EST
    is to get the popular vote counts accepted, bow to the "pressure" and accept a less than 100% allocation.  Then, based on what's been discussed here previously, call the opposition (and the DNC for that matter) on their hypocrisy in spite of the "new politics" campaign theme.  Pretty powerful arguments, I think.  e.g. favoritism in the application of the rules, we have the popular vote lead (X=fingers crossed,) old-style politics w/past performance as examples, media bias and misleading voters.  The argument then becomes, "we don't want to be republican," we, judge us by our actions, are democrats who are for the people.  Couldn't you use that $0.25 reduction in gas prices?  All the folks who represent the status quo say that's not gonna help you, but you know better.  We're the one's who are gonna stick up for the middle-class and those who need help.

    Parent
    But they just conceded (none / 0) (#71)
    by standingup on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:51:25 AM EST
    the "favoritism in the application of the rules" argument.

    Parent
    Yes, I saw that after I posted and thought WTH? (none / 0) (#113)
    by vicndabx on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:08:39 PM EST
    This too can play into the populist positions Hillary appears to have been taking lately.  Think about it, where does change begin?.....with THE RULES!  I.e. we accept the rules cuz that's what they are and are open to interpretation.  But who can you trust to understand the rules as they exist and change them so they work for you?  Isn't that's the change that's really needed?  Again, who do you feel can do that?  The campaign that's strived to be honest and straightforward from day one, in spite of widespread attempts to describe us as otherwise, or, the campaign that's described itself as "hope & change" but based on historical context has done nothing but demonstrate an ability to continue the status quo.

    Parent
    I disagree (none / 0) (#132)
    by vicndabx on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:17:17 PM EST
    and explain why in a post below.  You're right it's about the SD's, now.  But the SD's should be paying heavy attention to the voters and their leanings.  Especially if this is supposedly the year we're all paying attention.  IMO, this is the year to gauge the electorate's leanings.  There are too many Americans impacted by all the things we need to talk about, the economy, free-trade, terrorism, healthcare, drug-prices, global warming, etc. for us to have a candidate that's wishy-washy.  In essence, we've tried the other, work toward the middle-way of doing stuff for the last 8 years.  Let's establish a new middle.  Isn't that what change is really about?

    Parent
    Unity ticket? (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:11:15 PM EST
    Hope not (none / 0) (#127)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:15:06 PM EST
    if they are dangling a unity ticket to the Clinton camp to get them to go along, she better have it in contract, 'cause I have a feeling Obama has promised that slot to more than a dozen SD's already.


    Parent
    will anyone address (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by TimNCGuy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:39:55 AM EST
    the fact that Obama broke the no campaigning rule in FL?

    The DNC recieves this much authority (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by lilburro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:01 AM EST
    cuz why?  Cuz it's made up of all their friends?  Cuz it could kick them out if it wanted to?  Or what?

    I find the willingness of people to abandon the DNC's actual rules in order to glorify the DNC disturbing.  

    Maybe they really just want the (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:42 AM EST
    popular vote to count?  I AM LOST???

    that to me is the question (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:00:53 PM EST
    the delegates don't matter for Hillary's argument to superD's as much as the popular vote.

    My question has been: If they seat any delegates, does that validate the popular vote in both states so that Clinton gets all of her's.

    They were certified by the states, and if the DNC agrees to seat even one delegate from the primaries, don't the votes count? They can't cut the votes in half per their rules.

    I care more about popular vote than delegates. What actions can they take that affect what the popular vote totals are?

    Parent

    Chuck Todd is agreeing with you (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:03:36 PM EST
    Jeralyn

    Parent
    I think this is unwise... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:07:36 PM EST
    cutting the michigan and fl delegations in half substantially reduces the number of SDs that Obama needs in order to win the nomination, because it lowers the 'magic number' considerably.

    Parent
    The popular vote... (none / 0) (#103)
    by mindfulmission on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:03:49 PM EST
    ... does not officially matter in any sense, so I am not sure that it matters.  

    The actions by the DNC do not relate at all to the popular vote.  Any popular vote argument is going to have to be made by Clinton using Clinton's information and biases.  Clinton is going to have to be able to make an argument that Hillary's popular votes should include a state that Obama did not participate in, regardless of what is decided by the DNC related to delegates.

    Parent

    I think HRC lost the spin war (none / 0) (#116)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:09:37 PM EST
    when it came to the full delegate count.

    As BTD wrote earlier, every news outlet has misreported "teh Rulz" for months.

    She could have fought for all the delegates, but she has always tried to pick her fights wisely.

    I'm guessing she is concentrating on the popular vote AND the voters.

    Parent

    Well if Obama had been honest (none / 0) (#146)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:44:20 PM EST
    instead of trying to pander to other states and dishonestly conspiring at the last minute with the other candidates to dishonestly lessen the impact of Clinton's win in MI because he was doing cr@ppy in the polls, maybe some might take his dishonest argument a little more seriously.. or maybe not.  Really? what kind person takes their name off a ballot and strips voters of their rights expects to actually try to steal votes at the end?  never mind.....

    Parent
    Obama ignored the voters in MI (none / 0) (#149)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    Absolutely it is about the voters.  Obama was very blatant that the voters did not matter to him.  He was more concerned about deceiving voters in the early states that he cared about them (which he didn't) and getting one over on Clinton.  He doesn't want to pay the price for sleazy politics.  He took his name off to guarantee he got no votes.

    Democracy is one person one vote.  Obama wants votes he did not get in MI and FL.  The opposite of democracy.

    Parent

    Could this all be about the popular vote count? (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:57:09 AM EST
    Maybe they are going to get an 'on the record' admission from Dean et all that the popular vote is not affected by their decision.

    Possibly (none / 0) (#89)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:58:20 AM EST
    But they're going to need to win PR bigger than BTD thinks they will in order for that to fly.

    And no, giving Obama NO votes out of MI is not going to fly.

    Parent

    I think their plan is to go to convention (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:01:40 PM EST
    they will fight anything that would prevent that from happening but they aren't going to waste their energy on any other fights.  They plan to make the DNC and Obama fully wear the egg on their faces and the polls that shakes out from the disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan.

    Parent
    Well, I sure don't want them (none / 0) (#108)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:06:03 PM EST
    to go to the convention if they're not going to fight for something substantive, like seating FL in full. But it looks like they've already conceded that.

    Parent
    It has to fly (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:05:19 PM EST
    The DNC does not have the power to take state certified votes and award them to a candidate who was not on the ballot. Period.

    Parent
    Actually, it does fly. (none / 0) (#98)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:02:22 PM EST
    When the votes are added to the total and reported, they will reflect actual votes, NOT intent.  He took his name of the ballot.  He disallowed the voters of Michigan the opportunity to vote for him.  

    Parent
    You think the undecided SuperDelegates (none / 0) (#110)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:07:07 PM EST
    are going to agree with that? I very highly doubt it.

    Parent
    Yes, I do. (none / 0) (#129)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:15:59 PM EST
    I have never in my life heard of allocating votes to someone not on the ballot.

    Parent
    BTD -- inside information (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by mkb662 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:58:55 AM EST
    BTD:  I live in DC and now an RBC member.  He told me that the RBC is considering sitting the Committee in full, BUT punishing only the FL + MI superdelegates and elected officials responsible for this mess.  No, the RBC member is not Ickes or anyone affiliated with the Clinton campaign, which perhaps substantially increases its plausibility.

    that would be satisfying if true (none / 0) (#96)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:01:46 PM EST
    except (none / 0) (#102)
    by hlr on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:03:39 PM EST
    almost all the FL SDs are for Clinton.

    Parent
    To except (none / 0) (#117)
    by mkb662 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:09:59 PM EST
    I know, this is a down-side.  BUT, at least, we are not punishing the voters.  Also I inferred that he meant they would strip all the FL + MI supers from his comment but maybe it was only "those responsible," so those superdelegates that orchestrated this huge mess.  Unsure.

    Parent
    And ironicaly (none / 0) (#131)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:17:14 PM EST
    Most superdelegates had no say in this. The members of Congress and most DNC members didn't. If they are going to disqualify particular people that the RBC thinks could have done more, then their slots should be replaceable. Removing the slot penalizes the voters.

    Parent
    follow-up (none / 0) (#112)
    by mkb662 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:08:02 PM EST
    I agree, the position made a lot of sense when he told me.  The RBC member told me this yesterday.

    Parent
    This would be a brilliant solution (none / 0) (#150)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:59:10 PM EST
    Maybe a few people have volunteered to take one for the team. Like Granholm in MI for example. She had a lot to do in changing the date. Giving up one or two SDs to gain the whole slate would be wonderful. So the DNC would be saving face by getting their "punishment of lawbreakers" and doing the right thing by the voters too.

    Of course the cynic in me says the number of deducted SDs would be precisely the number needed to guarantee an Obama win.

    Parent

    BTD - inside information (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by mkb662 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:59:35 AM EST
    BTD:  I live in DC and know an RBC member.  He told me that the RBC is considering sitting the Committee in full, BUT punishing only the FL + MI superdelegates and elected officials responsible for this mess.  No, the RBC member is not Ickes or anyone affiliated with the Clinton campaign, which perhaps substantially increases its plausibility.

    Maybe there is more at play here. (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by ineedalife on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:10:46 PM EST
    Perhaps Clinton's game is to make the DNC feel they were in the right and they have accomplished their just punishment of FL and MI. Now that the punishment is accomplished they have the power to fully re-instate the delegations. Everybody wins.

    It is important that the voters perceive that the process is fair. And, even though I don't agree with it, it is important that the DNC feels they did the right thing too.

    At least I hope that is what is going on. Ickes knows these people, and what makes them tick, much better than I do.

    its a great question.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:51:27 AM EST
    but a tad long....  might I suggest that you stop after the words "as compared to Iowa, NH and South Carolina?"  From that point on, its not a question, but your (absolutely correct) opinion.


    You noticed? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:53:07 AM EST
    I think I will ask it as is. Think about it.

    Parent
    BTD - (none / 0) (#6)
    by Josey on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:52:06 AM EST
    do you know if the Clinton camp has ever specified that there was no rule (or pledge from candidates) that candidates had to take their names off MI ballot?


    BTD (none / 0) (#9)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:56:09 AM EST
    I still do not see a Rule 21 argument anywhere in Florida's appeal.

    Do they have more than two appeals?

    The Aussman written appeal (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:58:34 AM EST
    is not the official Florida position. That is the Ausmann position.

    Parent
    Oh (none / 0) (#13)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:00:41 AM EST
    See, now I get it!

    Is Florida's official position teed up for tomorrow if they don't have a written appeal?  Or were the materials relating to that appeal omitted from the DNC packet that was posted here?

    Parent

    I do not know (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:01:41 AM EST
    I do know that the DNC Memo discussed the issue of whether the Florida and Michigan delegations could fully reinstated.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#19)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:07:31 AM EST
    as I think you said yesterday, they ignored the issue of whether the delegations could be reinstated  under Rule 21 specifically.

    In the MI section of the memo, they basically concluded that there is no authority to restore the full delegation for the "political reasons" urged by MI.  This would be consistent with an intellectually honest position that Rule 21 is the only exception to an otherwise automatic 50% penalty.  (Of course, NH and the other early states can't satisfy Rule 21, but that's an issue of the RBC ignoring the rules, not the lawyers misinterpreting them.)

    In the FL section, though, I don't see where they talk about the issue of restoring the full delegation at all.  They write as though either (1) the Rule 21 issue hasn't been officially teed up by FL, and thus there's no need to discuss it; or (2) the issue is on the table and they've chosen to ignore it.

    Parent

    The irony is that Florida was moved... (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Salo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:13:25 AM EST
    ...up by the GOP to help out Giulliani.  This was treated in the same manner as Michigan Dems moving up their own primary as a means to agitate for a bit of DNC respect. Treating them both in the same manner is manifestly unjust.

    Still the damage has already been done to Clinton. All of this is being done to patch the Dems up for November.

    Parent

    All that mess in FL... (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:16:53 AM EST
    for the New York Nosferatu's ONE DELEGATE!

    Parent
    And a piss poor Democratic nominee (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Salo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:23:50 AM EST
    When I saw the Hispanic and Latino vote in Florida I thought Hillary probably deserved the nomination right there. That vote is the controlling Demo in New Mexico Arizona and Nevada, plus Florida.  It's also a good deal of the future of the party too.

    Edwards bowed out soon after that result too. Richardson went into hiding plotting his likely support for Clinton, but then came the disaster in Alaska and Idaho and the whole thing went haywire.

    Parent

    Your evaulation of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:26:49 AM EST
    is right on target.

    What will it take for the DNC to see the light here? They seem hell-bent on selecting Obama no matter what.

    I really don't get it.

    Parent

    Didn't quite work out that way (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:16:08 AM EST
    for the Republicans. But it did serve to essentially cement their nomination. McCain was able to defeat Romney there, and go on to essentially steamroll him on Super Tuesday. He won on the Kerry map while Mitt and Huck fought over the red scraps.

    Parent
    Dems seem willing to let Repubs frame issues -- (none / 0) (#121)
    by jawbone on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:12:53 PM EST
    so letting them mess up primaries is just another step on that road.

    I still don't get why the Dems went all Draconian on FL; there was basically nothing the Dems could do to stop the Repubs.

    Whassup with that? Obama influence already? Trying to force a caucus in FL?

    Just makes zero sense to me, which is why Ickes' reply to BTD's question flummoxes me. He's unable to say he was wrong back then? Being a pol means never saying you're sorry?

    Weird.

    Parent

    it sounds like the fix is in.... (none / 0) (#69)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:50:59 AM EST
    ...and now Flauntroy is trying to come up with a 'legal' rationale for it that makes no sense at all.

    Rule 21 C7 speicifically allows the seating of all delegates when the 'safe harbor' provision is met.

    Sounds to me like the Clinton's reached a compromise for half the voting strenght in FL and MI, and are now forced to make up bogus reasons for their abandonment of principles...

    Parent

    That is not (none / 0) (#100)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:03:31 PM EST
    what they were saying over and over and over on the  call.

    Parent
    that's my point... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    Florida clearly qualifies for the safe harbor provision, and the rules clearly state that the committee has the power to seat the delegates in full.

    So for Ickes to say that Florida did not qualify, and that there was no problem with not penalizing IA, SC, & NH...

    well, obviously, the Clinton camp have made a political compromise that grossly violates their claim to be acting on principle, and now are trying to act as if their hands are tied by the Rulez...

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#133)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:20:54 PM EST
    AFAIK (none / 0) (#34)
    by Step Beyond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:21:11 AM EST
    Florida didn't file a separate appeal. They get to speak as an interested party but they have made no formal appeal which is why the staff opinion only had the Ausman appeal for Florida.

    I wouldn't expect Ausman or the other 2 speaking on his appeal to vary much from it. But the Clinton and Obama reps, the state party rep and Graham could ask for more than the 1/2 delegates Ausman is asking for. I would hope that they would expand upon the issue.

    Parent

    The DNC lawyer memo (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:27:03 AM EST
    makes clear that while the RBC's powers are restricted by the rules, the Credentials Committee and the assembled Convention have plenary power to restore the full delegations if they want.

    It may just be that FL knows they aren't getting any relief under Rule 21 from this body and doesn't want to incur yet another adverse result.  I'm not sure.

    Parent

    It's an interesting question (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:29:39 AM EST
    How do you deal with a committee of misinformed idiots?

    Parent
    Believe me (none / 0) (#51)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:36:05 AM EST
    The real world of practicing law is about exactly that question.

    99% of legal arguments are presented to something other than a body of august solons.  The smart lawyer figures out how to adapt.

    Parent

    I was just thinking (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:37:14 AM EST
    that the answer must be similar to the question of how one deals with a jury. . .

    Parent
    I've served on 2 juries (none / 0) (#61)
    by Step Beyond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:47:11 AM EST
    and if I ever was on trial, I don't think I'd want a jury trial.

    Parent
    I served on a jury just last week, my first (none / 0) (#65)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:50:04 AM EST
    It was an interesting experience.  Luckily it was an easy case because the prosecution had only one eye witness, who changed his story several times.  That was the only evidence.  

    Parent
    Gee, "changed his story several time" (none / 0) (#72)
    by zfran on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:51:40 AM EST
    sounds like Obama!

    Parent
    WTH are they arguing against (none / 0) (#56)
    by masslib on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:40:23 AM EST
    a full seating?

    because the fix is in.... (3.66 / 3) (#76)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:53:12 AM EST
    The Clinton camp reached a compromise for 50%, and are now trying to BS their way through their abandonment of the principle of 100% representation with bogus 'legal' arguments.

    Parent
    Are they trying to legitimize Obama? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Davidson on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:57:49 AM EST
    I'm trying to understand why Clinton sounds like she just flat-out folded on faulty grounds.  Perhaps they believe no matter what they do Obama will be the nominee so might as well try some smoke and mirrors and hope it works?  Please.  The GOP will eat him--and the DNC--alive with this MI/FL bullsh**.

    Parent
    I wonder... (none / 0) (#87)
    by madamab on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:58:11 AM EST
    are they sacrificing delegates for popular vote count? To me, the votes are more important anyway.

    Parent
    To me (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by standingup on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:02:21 PM EST
    the voters are more important and I don't see that anyone is representing their interests.  

    Talk about getting a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach.  

    Parent

    20 C 7 empowers the committee... (none / 0) (#58)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:43:53 AM EST
    re: the 50% argument...
    "SAFE HARBOR PROVISION"  Rule 20 C 7 spefically empowers the committee to allow all delegates to be seated..


    In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state's delegation shall not be reduced.


    Ickes says that Florida and MI (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:48:11 AM EST
    do not qualify for that exemption.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:50:29 AM EST
    He is nuts with respect to FL imo.

    Both campaigns have really butchered their handling of this issue, and I'm disappointed but not surprised by what you are reporting.  At least the Clinton campaign's butchery harms only itself.

    Parent

    I've seen (none / 0) (#136)
    by JRoyale on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:25:33 PM EST
    the video of the floor vote in FL and the Dems not only did not object to the Republican plan to move up the election before Super Tuesday, but they all voted for it.  There's no safe harbor here.

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:30:32 PM EST
    The Democrats sponsored and supported an amendment that would have stripped the early primary date from the election bill.  That failed because they are substantially outnumbered by the Republicans

    They did not oppose the FINAL bill because it included other important measures, including a verifiable paper trail and would have been suicidal to oppose.  They did what they had to do by sponsoring the amendment in good faith.

    Parent

    Of course they objected (none / 0) (#137)
    by andgarden on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:28:27 PM EST
    Karen Thurman made a convincing case on that count last summer.

    Parent
    Ickes (none / 0) (#73)
    by standingup on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:52:03 AM EST
    is wrong.

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#147)
    by Andy08 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:44:21 PM EST
    I am not sure he said that or what he meant really.
    I don't know what part of the Rules they are basing their arguments on. But Ickes said repeatedly that the RBC has full authority and full power to seat the full delegations with full votes.

    That is their argument. The Rules give the RBC full power to seat the delegations in full and with full votes. That's what it was said over and over....

    Parent

    I heard a Clinton supporter on Fox (none / 0) (#59)
    by bjorn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:44:58 AM EST
    say that the RBC cannot negotiate a settlement, they can only restore according the rules or something like that...the power to change things or negotiate something lies with a higher level committee....I only half heard but that is what I thought the guy was saying.  I did hear him say the RBC cannot assign uncommitted delegates to any candidate. It sounds like Clinton's people think this comm. is very low on totem pole or something.

    I am confused (none / 0) (#60)
    by standingup on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:45:11 AM EST
    Who is actually presenting Clinton's argument?  Is Tina Flournoy presenting it or is she just speaking as a Clinton supporter and member of the RBC?  

    For the campaign (none / 0) (#64)
    by Step Beyond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:48:40 AM EST
    Rep. Arthenia Joyner is actually speaking for the Clinton campaign.

    Parent
    Can't understand what is going on now (none / 0) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:54:28 AM EST
    What do they hope to accomplish from here?  Sounds like they have no plan in dealing with the DNC and either they are about to end the campaign or they are going to convention and don't care one way or the other what the rules committee says or does.

    I think Rachel Maddow's assessment that I heard (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by cosbo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:01:45 PM EST
    on the radio a few days ago was correct. Clinton's ultimate goal to go to the convention. Right now, if FL/M seat all delegates at 100% Clinton would still be behind Obama. So FL/MI are to be essentially used to create a reason to get to the convention because of the using operation chaos/uncertainity. Obama's unwillingness to seat the delegates is being used against him.

    He faces sort of a catch 22. If he allows the delegates to be all seated then the SD's can overturn for Clinton. If he doesn't and Clinton decides to go the convention, then the whole thing becomes up for grabs at the convention, especially if he is weakened considerably over the summer.

    Parent

    It should be used against him (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:04:36 PM EST
    remedies were put out there.  People said they would pay for do overs even and because he felt he was in the lead he snubbed those voters.  I didn't hear the Maddow assessment but it does seem accurate now.

    Parent
    Much as I've come to dislike Ms. Maddow (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by vicndabx on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:24:19 PM EST
    I would have to agree that's Hillary's only play here.  It forces the SD's to either declare one way or another and end this, or, let this thing go to the convention and we hash out the arguments there.  Nothing wrong with that.  Change isn't easy.  You don't get there by shutting off the debate.

    Parent
    There's a big chance of (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by pie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    Obama being weakened over the summer.  

    The media and the Dem leadership might like to ignore Clinton, but they'd better keep in mind that she has won about half of the voters in the primary.

    The dems, in particular, ignore that at their peril.  The media will just keep shooting themselves in the foot as far as some of us are concerend.  But they're having a good time, so it's okay, right?

    Parent

    Clinton is being completely stupid (none / 0) (#126)
    by Foxx on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:14:59 PM EST
    I am disgusted. And very disappointed.

    Or brilliant (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:24:48 PM EST
    We'll have to wait and see if there is a greater plan in play here.


    Parent
    I think Ickes has a conflict of interest. (none / 0) (#128)
    by oculus on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:15:36 PM EST


    I think Ickes (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by americanincanada on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:32:11 PM EST
    has a plan that we don't right now see.

    I do not believe they are giving up.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#153)
    by oldpro on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:34:36 PM EST
    they're not giving up.

    The strategy is not transparent but it does exist.

    Next step, credentials committee and - perhaps - suspension of campaign...though not of campaigning!

    Hillary will go to the convention and be nominated.  Not going to pass that up by quitting.

    Parent

    Cliinton's people are supposed to be smart, right? (none / 0) (#154)
    by g8grl on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:20:07 PM EST
    Let's hope they know what they're doing.