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Obama To Overturn Bush Laws and Orders He Finds Unconstitutional

Via Suburban Guerilla and Reuters:

During a fund-raiser in Denver, Obama — a former constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago Law School — was asked what he hoped to accomplish during his first 100 days in office.

“I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution,” said Obama.

He'll overturn laws? What about the separation of powers? How can a President overturn a law passed by Congress?

Presidents issue exective orders. It's Congress that passes and repeals laws. Our courts decide the constitutionality of laws passed by Congress.

[More...]

From a reader e-mail:

Doesn't this sound exactly like Bush signing statements saying that Bush will not respect parts of the law because they were in his interpretation unconstitutional?

Is Obama saying his Administration will bring a lot of cases before the Courts -- or that he as President will not respect laws?

Doesn't the timeline -- the first 100 days--seem as if Obama means he himself will "overturn" laws passed while Bush was in office?

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he misspoke. What do you think?

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  • Display: Sort:
    I think he covered this topic in (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:40:24 PM EST
    one of his articles for the Harvard Law Review.

    No one (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:14:47 AM EST
    wrote more for the HLR than Barack Obama!

    [ Parent ]
    No one's work was of higher quality (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:16:10 AM EST
    and THAT is a fact.

    [ Parent ]
    In my day (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:22:29 AM EST
    when we had to vote on the next editor of the law review, the #1 indispensable criteria was that they had to publish.  Ideally, we'd want someone whose student note was already finished, because we couldn't take the chance that they might slack off and not get it done.  It would have been seen as a major embarrassment for the institution if the EIC didn't publish.

    We weren't Harvard, but it was a top-5 school.  I was pretty surprised to find out that Obama never published, but I guess it must have been less important in his day, or something.

    [ Parent ]

    hardly. It was a big deal---they changed (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:24:37 AM EST
    the rules after he left to require that the EIC actually publish. That's very embarrassing---should go without saying.
    Also by other measure, the HLR was of lesser quality during his term.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:28:56 AM EST
    I was a Note Editor and I never published a note of my own, so I have no room to talk!  It's nice to know I can still be President though.

    [ Parent ]
    qwatz (none / 0) (#149)
    by 2liberal on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:37:11 AM EST
    do you have a link for this? according to wiki, publishing was not part of being chosen one of the editors. there is no mention of how the president was chosen.

    Using a competitive process that takes into account first-year grades, an editing exercise, and a written commentary on a court decision, The Harvard Law Review selects between 41 and 43 editors annually from the second-year Law School class, which numbers 560.

    Two editors from each of first-year class's seven sections (fourteen in all) are selected half by their first year grades and half by their scores on the writing competition. Another twenty are selected solely on their scores on the writing competition. The other seven to nine are selected by a discretionary committee, either to fulfill the review's race-based affirmative action program, to select students who just missed the cut by either of the other two processes, or by some other criteria as the committee sees fit.



    [ Parent ]
    That's different (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:44:53 AM EST
    What you're describing is the process of how people get selected to join the Law Review in the first place.

    Once they're on law review, everyone is expected to publish a student note - in the end, some do and some don't.

    The selection of a President, and all the other offices, occurs after everyone has already spent a year working on Law Review.  At that point, you have additional data regarding who appears likely to publish and who doesn't.  But of course there's no publication requirement to get on Law Review in the first place, because that gets everything out of sequence.

    [ Parent ]

    HLR (none / 0) (#189)
    by gaf on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:38:55 AM EST
    President, not Editor (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:31:53 AM EST
    It is my understanding the Barack Obama was "President" of the Harvard Law Review. I think it was an administrative post.  

    Although I don't know if Harvard's law review has its own rules, most law reviews don't select anyone to serve as an editor unless he/she has written something published by the review.  There are many levels of editors -- including Managing, Note editor, Articles Editor, etc.


    [ Parent ]

    Hm (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:34:24 AM EST
    I had always assumed that "President" was just a pretentious equivalent to "Editor-in-Chief."

    If they had an EIC and then a separate job called "President" I have no clue what that job description might entail.

    [ Parent ]

    Google Search (none / 0) (#143)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:18:01 AM EST
    Might turn up some of the quotes from Obama's class mates and the conservative group on the Law Review that chose Obama as President over another candidate essentially because they thought they could work around Obama more easily.  Editor's usually have responsibilities for editing articles and "notes" that will appear in each issue.  

    [ Parent ]
    of course, (none / 0) (#116)
    by cpinva on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:43:28 AM EST
    No one's work was of higher quality

    no one's was lower either.

    sorry, low-hanging fruit! :)

    [ Parent ]

    That slacker Laurence Tribe (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by riddlerandy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:30:26 AM EST
    also had a low opinion of him.

    "I can't pretend that I had any idea then that he would be a serious presidential candidate -- that would have been a crazy thing for anyone to project at that stage of a career -- but he was certainly the most all-around impressive student I had seen in decades," said Laurence Tribe, a constitutional scholar at Harvard for whom Obama served as a research assistant.


    [ Parent ]

    you know... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:36:46 AM EST
    the same thing was said about George W Bush by his classmates at Yale.

    The parallels with Bush 43 and Obama are too unnerving for me.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? I don't recall that. (none / 0) (#75)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:42:17 AM EST
    In fact, I was in NE in 2001-2003, and a woman I met said she knew Bush's Yale tutor, who said he was "dumb as a box of rocks".

    [ Parent ]
    with regard (none / 0) (#82)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:48:45 AM EST
    to him seriously running for the presidency.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh ok. I just love repeating that story. (none / 0) (#84)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:49:37 AM EST
    It's true, insofar as my reporting goes.

    [ Parent ]
    I recall (none / 0) (#95)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:59:36 AM EST
    a quote from some guy who was on a board of directors with Bush, who said something like "if you made a list of a thousand people who might become President someday, you would not have put his name on it."  I wish I could find that quote.

    [ Parent ]
    It's my understanding (none / 0) (#106)
    by cal1942 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:13:39 AM EST
    that he NEVER wrote an article for the Harvard Law Review and that after his term was complete a new rule was put in place forbidding the selection any future Law Review president who had never made a contribution.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, that's what I read as well. (none / 0) (#107)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:15:53 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I thought he meant... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:44:02 PM EST
    ... that he was planning on appointing himself to five of the nine positions on the Supreme Court.

    Don't you mean (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:01:45 AM EST
    5 of 16 supreme court positions?

    [ Parent ]
    He's trying to mimic Hillary (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by masslib on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:44:39 PM EST
    who said something(I'm not a lawyer) about reviewing Bush's signing statements and getting rid of them(I don't know the process).  So, well, Obama's about as good as I am at mimicing Hill's plans.

    that was it (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:46:21 PM EST
    I heard her say that would be the first thing she does.  Not what he said.  

    [ Parent ]
    Are you saying words matter? (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:56:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    More seriously... (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:46:06 PM EST
    ... I think he misspoke--he'll overturn executive orders, but not laws. Though I have no idea how a lawyer makes that kind of mistake. Or how anybody can think that 10,000 people died in a tornado. Or anyone with a passing knowledge of history can think that Americans liberated Auschwitz.

    This is the same lawyer / law professor (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:59:21 PM EST
    that did not know what decriminalization meant. (And I am low information)

    [ Parent ]
    Can you get you money back (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:02:04 AM EST
    from U of Chicago?

    [ Parent ]
    Can you tell me what you're referring (none / 0) (#23)
    by MarkL on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:02:53 AM EST
    to?

    [ Parent ]
    If you were one of his students (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Stellaaa on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:06:50 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama on decriminalization of pot (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:11:18 AM EST
    He was for it and then he was against it and then for it.

    Link

    And he was against again after this.

    [ Parent ]

    And here is the link (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:16:17 AM EST
    about when he was against it.

    Link

    His final position, I assume?

    [ Parent ]

    technically (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by dpw on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:11:30 AM EST
    Executive orders are law, as are judicial orders. So, he didn't misspeak. One could argue that unconstitutional orders are not law on the grounds that they lack legitimacy, but most people don't use the term "law" that restrictively.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh (none / 0) (#111)
    by cal1942 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:23:06 AM EST
    Where?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm confused (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by dpw on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:33:45 AM EST
    I have no idea what you're asking, but I think it's rather clear that "the law" includes far more than prescriptions/proscriptions created by the legislature. I assume that you agree that court orders and opinions constitute law. Likewise, many executive orders and decisions are law, so long as they are supported by the appropriate authority.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with dpw (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by minordomo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:35:59 AM EST
    The above post by Jeralyn suggests a way of seeing Obama's statement in the the worst possible light even though there is a perfectly reasonable way of reading it on its face. I would think that what Obama said is actually something that, in the light of the Bush administration's actions, Jeralyn would welcome - that Bush's executive orders are reviewed with regard to their constitutionality by the next attorney general.

    "I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution," said Obama.

    The mention of "laws" in the second part of the sentence is consistent with the use of "laws" as dpw describes it, and to be read in the context of the first part, i.e. in reference to reviewing Bush's executive orders - not laws passed by Congress, which would amount to unnecessarily inserting a complete non sequitur.

    [ Parent ]

    Then why (none / 0) (#134)
    by Matt v on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:12 AM EST
    did he, himself, distinguish between the two?

    [ Parent ]
    W.O.R.M. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by vicsan on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:19:11 AM EST
    What Obama Really Meant. Pretty sad he has his own acronym because he seems to have a "problem" with misspeaking. Pathetic.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree.. (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by knowshon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:02:43 AM EST
    ...but how about him saying there there are 57 states, painful confusion between Hezbollah and Hamas, McCain running for W's 4th term, his grandmother "is typical of white people", and his hearts to questionable, racist characters.

    [ Parent ]
    Or stretch (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by cal1942 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:22:10 AM EST
    the flag to accomodate 57 stars.

    [ Parent ]
    What was it Romney (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:49:46 PM EST
    said... something about calling people up... I can't remember, but this reminds me of that.  

    McCain, on the other hand, said he would never use signing statements.  Why couldn't Obama have said something nice and simple like that.

    What is Obama's background again.......

    Misspoke?  This tells me that he is well aware of the shift in the balance of power and he has no intention of giving it up (and that he has delusions of grandeur).

    Problem isn't signing statements per se... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Alec82 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:53:30 PM EST
    ...it is the abuse of them.  

    [ Parent ]
    Why haven't either (none / 0) (#25)
    by waldenpond on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:04:31 AM EST
    of the Dems taken a position on them?  It's been an issue for me for a long time.  I used to like to listen to Toobin on this subject before he had to become a political pundit to get air time on CNN.  Also, abuse is subjective.  

    [ Parent ]
    They have (4.50 / 2) (#29)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:06:55 AM EST
    Here is a video from one of the debates.

    [ Parent ]
    Want Supreme Court (none / 0) (#68)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:35:19 AM EST
    action on signing statements?  I'd prefer not to let the issue get there for now.  I'd take the position that signing statements are unconstitutional attempts to legislate by the executive and have no force of law.  Problem is now the Fed'l Government's departments are treating them as law -- or so I understand.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:45:10 AM EST
    I don't think they can be literally unconstitutional, because on one level they're simply the President giving instructions to his employees.  Enforcing a statute always requires some degree of interpretation; you can't really declare that the President is not entitled to interpret statutes or to tell his underlings how he interprets them.

    I think the video reflects that the prevalent view of signing statements is a little more nuanced than "they're always bad."  They've been around for an awfully long time, after all.

    Here is an example of a signing statement by Bill Clinton that I have no problem with.  The difference between this and the typical Bush signing statement is that Clinton provides guidance as to exactly what part of the statute he has a constitutional problem with and what his concerns are, which means Congress can fix it or take other appropriate action.

    Bush's signing statements are typically legalese like "I decline to enforce the statute to the extent it is inconsistent with the Constitution's grant of power to the unitary executive, blah blah blah," which is basically a way of saying that he may ignore portions of the law but he's not going to give you any idea which portions they may be.

    [ Parent ]

    Saying "this is my problem" and (none / 0) (#140)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:11:13 AM EST
    "I interpret the law to mean X" - when X means something entirely different from the law passed are two different things.  "This is my opinion" of the law is not an attempt to usurp the legislative authority of Congress, while signing statements that rewrite the letter and spirit of Congressional legislation should be treated as merely opinion.

    [ Parent ]
    Trends (none / 0) (#195)
    by atlanta lawyer on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:45:34 AM EST
    The trends in history of signing statements seem to move from more interpretation in the Reagan and Bush I to B.Clinton declining to enforce some laws, to Bush II declining to follow laws. The above case is illistrative.  Clinton, who had make priorities about which cases to prosecute and how zealously, decided that those laws shouldn't be enforced b/c of 1st amend problems. His opinion (despite the opinion of Congress and the Judiciary)was that the laws curtailed the freedom of Americans too much, so he wouldn't enforce them, while Bush's objections to the law have largely been that they encroach on his power too much.  It seemed the GENERAL trend was for Clinton -to the extent he went beyond interpreting- used them to give power and freedom back to U.S. Citizens while Bush has used them to gain an upper leg in a battle over power with Congress. That is the fundamental difference.

    [ Parent ]
    Some Conservative Constituton Lawyers (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by themomcat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:49:02 AM EST
    like Jonathan Turley and Bruce Fein have said that these signing statements are unconstitutional. I used to watch "Countdown" only because Turley was a guest. And Bruce Fein was just blew me away on "Bill Moyers' Journal" when he said that both Bush and Cheney should be impeached simultaneously.

    [ Parent ]
    Probably because Obama (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by RalphB on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:56:46 PM EST
    might want to back up and support using signing statements tomorrow.  That is his MO.

    [ Parent ]
    waldenpond (none / 0) (#193)
    by tek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:02:59 AM EST
    This has been my theory all along.  Only I don't think it's just Obama who has no intention of giving up all the executive power that's on the table right now, it's also his key supporters (who refused to impeach the most criminal president in history).  IMO all these people have dreams of grandeur, and while they may be liberals, as we have seen with Dubya, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  This very thing is what makes the questionable primary season so worrisome.  Why do the D. C. Dems work so hard to promote Obama--an inexperienced unqualified man--and slash ferociously at Clinton?  Perhaps the D. C. Dems and some other liberal demographics don't want a strong Executive to have to share power with?  Just reeks, as we used to say in the '60s.

    [ Parent ]
    I gather he didn't have a script (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by themomcat on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:55:11 PM EST
    when he said that? Just what this country needs another president that is forever putting his foot in his mouth and chomping on it.

    Read more closely... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Alec82 on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:55:41 PM EST
    "I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions..."

     Hardly controversial.

    He mispoke (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by RalphB on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:58:57 PM EST
    have a tiny sense of humor about you.  :-)

    overturn those laws   not gonna do that one

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, dear Jesus... (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Addison on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:55:47 AM EST
    ...have those executive orders not been laws? Have then not guided official conduct in our country the same as laws? What are you talking about. The problem is that Bush has conflated his orders with laws, not that Obama wants to realign them with the Constitution.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, but the important thing... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:00:53 AM EST
    ..is that he is talking about executive orders.  I am not busy parsing Senator Clinton on this subject.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:59:14 PM EST
    You don't think he misspoke?  Your clarification makes no sense to me.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:06:11 AM EST
    ...executive decisions do have the force of "law" behind them.  Or so President Clinton told us.  

     Unless we are going to pretend, as a Bush appointment did, that President Clinton's order barring sexual orientation discrimination in the executive branch did not have the force of law behind it.

     I happen to agree that there are plenty of questionable executive orders, but their legal status is unclear.

    [ Parent ]

    executive orders aren't overturned.... (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:08:39 AM EST
    either.

    they are rescinded.  Or superceded.  But a president doesn't overturn anything.

    the issie isn't whether he misspoke - of course he misspoke.  The question is why he misspoke.

    Wasn't eight years of Bush enough?  

    [ Parent ]

    Fair to say (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:44:28 AM EST
    I think that both the Dem candidates are tired.  I am a Hillary supporter, but I think we should cut Obama some slack here.  I think many of us just have our noses out of joint because of the way the Obama campaign tried to turn Hillary  into one who has homicidal motives based on her own poor choice of words.

    [ Parent ]
    See I said the same thing about Senator Clinton... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:49:51 AM EST
    ...on dailykos and was repeatedly informed that she was, in essence, evil.  Way too partisan on both sides.

     I migrated there because I was tired of being personally attacked here.  

    [ Parent ]

    I would add (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by brad12345 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:48:50 AM EST
    that a reasonable standard is to ask yourself how you would react if the candidate you supported made that statement.  I support Obama, but I really can't imagine getting upset or thinking less of HRC if she said "I would overturn those executive orders" when she meant revoke or rescind.   It's asinine to apply the standards of specific written, legal english to every comment ever made in conversation.

    My guess is that if HRC said she would overturn the unconstitutional executive orders from the Bush years, people on this site would cheer.  And well it should--the bush years have been terribly corrupt.

    What I don't understand is how slightly imprecise use of the English language in conversation--in support of a goal that I would expect progressives to line up behind--can warrant the outrage that we see among these commenters.

    [ Parent ]

    Tight race... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:59:36 AM EST
    ...equals extremely divisive opinions, IMO.  Maybe too superficial, but I think that is what is happening.

    [ Parent ]
    Bush has taken (none / 0) (#205)
    by Daryl24 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:33:47 PM EST
    the executive signing order to places no one imagined. I think at last count the tally was just over 700. He misspoke but I understood what Obama was saying so I'll give him a pass. Glad to hear him mention it

    [ Parent ]
    New Orders Void Old Ones (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:17:52 AM EST
    I
    t has been an interesting several weeks for the presidency in many respects. This is a subject that I started thinking about in 1993 when, after President Clinton was elected, on his first day he issued a number of decisions that were widely characterized as executive orders in a memorandum that overturned some policies from the Bush administration and the Reagan administration. I did not know that a president could do that. I thought presidents had to go through congress fore everything, which sort of fits with the standard conceptions of the office that we have.

    [snip]

    In the waning days of his administration, Clinton issued dozens of executive orders and proclamations which, among other things, declared new national monuments, which take public lands off-limits to development.

    [snip]

    Bush, whose press secretary Ary Flysher had referred to Clinton as something of a busy beaver in his final days, promised a close review of these last minute orders. So, when Bush got into office, his first act on January 22nd was to issue a memorandum overturning what Clinton had done as his first acts as president. So, what happened is that Clinton overturned what had become known as the Mexico City Policy in which non-governmental organizations involved in family planning services, in order to receive U.S. foreign aid, had to fore-score all abortion-related services, whether or not they used U.S. taxpayer dollars. The Mexico City Policy imposed a ban that even if a group provided those services with their own funds, they would not be eligible for U.S. foreign aid. On January 22nd, 1993, Clinton reversed that policy. On January 22nd, 2001, Bush reversed Clinton, who had in turn reversed Reagan, who had in turn, reversed an earlier policy.




    [ Parent ]
    "Ary Flysher"?! What oh-so-erudite (none / 0) (#129)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:09:24 AM EST
    spurce are you quoting, anyway?  What a hoot.

    [ Parent ]
    Ugh. The irony. Uh, "source" (none / 0) (#136)
    by Cream City on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:51:14 AM EST
    and a reminder to self to turn on the desk light when typing in the middle of the night.

    [ Parent ]
    Source (none / 0) (#183)
    by squeaky on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:13:33 AM EST
    Griffin Bell
    Former U.S. Attorney General
    With William Howell and Ken Mayer
    University of Wisconsin-Madison
    "The History of the Executive Order"

    [ Parent ]
    A President's "executive power" (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Newt on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:04:35 AM EST
    (Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution) give executive orders the force of law, which is why the EOs refer to specific acts of Congress.

    I just read Article 1 in its entirety.... (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:16:06 AM EST
    again, an it does not give Executive Orders the force of law.  

    The lawmaking power is reserved to Congress.  That's pretty much the whole point of the separation of powers.

    Congress can assign power to the executive branch to promulgate regulations necessary to implement the laws it passes and those regulations can have the force of law, but the President can't just issue an order and have it be treated as "law" absent specific congressional authorization to do so.  

    Did you study under professor Obama or something? ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    Oops, I misspoke. Thanks for the correction. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Newt on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:41:47 AM EST
    The President's "executive power" (Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution) give executive orders the force of law, when the orders refer to specific acts of Congress that empower them.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't mean to be a stickler... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Arjun on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:21:55 AM EST
    but Article II, Section I of the constitution simply establishes the executive, sets up electors, necessary requirements for the office, salary, oath of office etc.

    Are you referring to Article II, Section 3? That sets up presidential responsibilities. But the only thing mentioned here is the responsibility to "take care that all laws be faithfully executed".

    The powers of the president are so ambiguous in the specific text of the constitution, so the force of law granted to executive orders stems from the necessary and proper clause of Article I section 8, which grants congress the power to

    "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

    Since congress is empowerd to grant the executive the ability to carry out orders with the force of the law, I think Obama's statement was reasonable. As a supporter of HRC, I would rather not bring myself down to the semantic games playing the Obama supporters love to engage in. I have bigger concerns than Obama's lexical proficiency.

    [ Parent ]
    It's more complicated than that (none / 0) (#87)
    by dpw on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:53:02 AM EST
    Well, the separation of powers isn't really so crystal clear. The question often relates to whether the executive (or judicial) branch is really "making" law or, alternatively, just interpreting the law or delivering some refined application of the law. Federal courts often issues orders that depend upon judge-created federal common law. Moreover, many constitutional holdings can drastically change the legal landscape even though the courts only claims to be interpreting the constitution.

    Similarly, the executive branch often makes law. The authority to do so generally derives from congressional delegation of this authority (the constitutionality of which is controversial), but  additionally the duties of the executive often require the interpretation of broadly defined authority. Moreover, executive discretion often requires executive officers to make policy-like decisions.

    In short, this stuff can be incredibly complicated, and just because the executive and judicial branches don't have explicit authority to  "make law," they do have the obligation to make decisions about the law. These decisions, also, typically have the "force of law," even if they tend to change the legal landscape in material ways. To be sure, you can be thrown in jail for refusal to comply with a court order (remember Schiavo?).

    [ Parent ]

    Executive Orders (none / 0) (#141)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri May 30, 2008 at 05:14:18 AM EST
    it seems to me might lawfully cover matters over which the President as Chief Executive has Constitutional Authority, i.e., conduct of a lawful law, execution of authority reserved in Congressional legislation to the president to carry out the law in question, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    "law" vs :"authority" (none / 0) (#174)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:35:24 AM EST
    when we are talking about the "force of law", we are talking about the nature of a "law", which is separate and distinct from "executive authority".  

    Thus, statutes have 'the force of law', as do regulations passed pursuant to statute, and judicial determinations regarding the meaning and implementation of laws and regulations.

    The whole framework of the constitution exists to deny the executive the ability to "make law" and tossing around "force of law" when discussing executive authority bugs me ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    How will he (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by LoisInCo on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:12:31 AM EST
    judge the constitutionality? Will he take the same martinet mindset he used to knock off valid opponents against him? If so, then he will probably keep most of them.

    You know what.. (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:32:20 AM EST
    ...stop with the personal attacks.  Just stop.

     High info voter indeed. No need to attack me.

    Agreed Alex (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:10:41 AM EST
    I deleted that comment

    [ Parent ]
    Eh... (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Addison on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:52:17 AM EST
    (a) He was clearly talking about the executive orders that have been in abrogation of the legislative process. Which we've all been against, I think.

    (b) If he had said he would NOT overturn such decisions there would've been a post on that, too, decrying him as just another Bush-esque executive. Which is always a good rule of thumb: if the opposite course had be undertaken, would the detractors have something negative to say as well? If so, maybe the decision isn't as simple as it's made out to be.

    Severl Personal attacks on Obama (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:21:23 AM EST
    have been deleted. This is a thread about a specific statement he made.

    This is about an appropriate review of (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by AdrianLesher on Fri May 30, 2008 at 04:23:45 AM EST
    executive orders.

    "I would call my attorney general in and review every single executive order issued by George Bush and overturn those laws or executive decisions that I feel violate the constitution," said Obama.

    It seems pretty clear that since Obama is talking about reviewing executive orders, he is only talking about terminating Bush's abusive and extra-constitutional executive acts. I would think that Talkleft would be cheering this rather than engaging in baseless comparisons with Bush's abuses.

    I would think so as well... (none / 0) (#154)
    by rhbrandon on Fri May 30, 2008 at 06:38:34 AM EST
    Context is important here. Seeking out statements by one's opponent, parsing and mangling them allegedly into meaning something they don't is the kind of political style we're all had to put up with for the last two presidental terms, if not the last four. We're seeing the same kind of thing from the WH on Scotty's confessional.

    It's what ultimately burned me out on the Clinton campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    Nice work work, Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by flyerhawk on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:02:34 AM EST
    Given the option between taking the clear meaning of what he said, that he would rescind those executive orders that he felt violated the Constitution, and inferring a meaning that assumes he is a complete idiot that knows nothing about the law, you chose the latter.  

    Pretty impressive that you could find a negative interpretation to a comment that you would absolutely be effusive over had Hillary said it.

    Amusing (none / 0) (#178)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:53:05 AM EST
    Giving a choice between actually reading Jeralyn's post, where she says "I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt," and accusing her of bad faith, you chose the latter.

    Again.

    [ Parent ]

    Geeze,

    He was obviously talking about the "laws" that Bush wrote for himself through EO's (stroke of the pen, law of the land, as they say) which were a patent abuse of the system.

    God, I bet if Hillary had said these exact same words, you'd be throwing rosepetals and shouting hosanna, not nitpicking.

    You folks think MCCAIN is going to review all the spurious EO's and awful drek that Bush has forced upon us in the last eight years?

    In keeping with my Obama experience (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:52:25 AM EST
    thusfar.  The largest elements of his stated ambitions have a dreamlike quality while he seems to be completely out of touch with what it would in reality take to accomplish.  

    She's a lawyer (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:57:01 AM EST
    Who understands legal process and wonders why another lawyer who is running for President doesn't seem to understand the processes.  That's sort of scary.

    I'm no lawyer (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:14:01 AM EST
    but he said overturn laws.

    [ Parent ]
    You don't overturn executive orders (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by angie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:03:03 AM EST
    you rescind them (words matter) -- only a non-lawyer or an idiot lawyer would use the word "overturn" vis-a-vis executive orders. The question here is not what kind of democratic is Jeralyn, the question what kind of lawyer is Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    Enough (4.00 / 2) (#181)
    by geordie on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:07:19 AM EST
    I came to this site originally to read BTD again, who I missed at DKos.  I left Dkos because of the unreasoning, sexist hatred of Hillary Clinton there - I've never been an Obama supporter, and I voted Edwards in the Florida primary.  So I was predisposed to read reasonable criticism of Obama and reasonable support for Clinton here.  

    But this subject and the really racist comments here have just gone over the line for me - I'm a lawyer, I teach, and I'm not offended by Obama's rather expansive statement about executive orders in this instance.  He's a POLITICIAN!  He's not in court, he's not writing a brief, he's making one of thousands of political speeches this year.

    To suggest that he's not smart, that he somehow got into Harvard "for other reasons", wink, wink, nudge, nudge, is simply odious.  I have been thinking for a while about changing my voter registration to Independent, to disassociate myself from the feckless and incompetent Florida Democratic party leadership.  But this kind of thread makes me want to disassociate myself from the people posting this kind of inane and frankly Red State-sounding attacks on Obama, so long as they call themselves Democrats.   You may be deleting "personal attacks on Obama", Jeralyn, but that's closing the barn door after the horse has bolted - you invited it and you got it.  

    You really need to read carefully... (3.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Alec82 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:16:52 AM EST
    ...because to me he has a firm grasp on constitutioal law.

     He was teaching it at a highly ranked rated law school.  

     He graduated from a top law school.

     He passed the bar after graduating from a top law school.

     This is one issue where he doesn't need to convince anyone, IMO.
     

    You are wrong (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by themomcat on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:40:42 AM EST
    He needs to convince me. Graduating from a top law school, passing the bar and teaching does not qualify anyone to be president, especially, one who can't string a coherent sentence together without a script. IMO.

    [ Parent ]
    Bush 43 graduated from Yale (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:43:18 AM EST
    So what's your point?

    [ Parent ]
    Pretty Clearly (4.00 / 2) (#98)
    by brad12345 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:03:18 AM EST
    The point is that, regardless of any other criticism you might want to make, Obama understands constitutional law.  Generally, top 10 law schools don't become top 10 law schools by hiring people who don't understand the law.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by txpolitico67 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:46:56 AM EST
    so why does Obama need to google decriminalization?  Did they not teach him along the way that there are 50 states as opposed to 58?

    Top 10 law schools, universities and the like are not impressive to me.  I work with a Stanford graduate that asks me to proof her communiques because of her poor syntax.

    The owner of my company graduated from Dartmouth.  Guess who has to show him how to compute gross profit on our financials?

    Li'l ol' university-public school state system-graduate me that's who. If people like Obama and Bush are products of Ivy League educations, I will gladly pick my public education university every day of the week.

    [ Parent ]

    Uh (1.00 / 1) (#124)
    by brad12345 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:01:43 AM EST
    Bush got in on legacy connections and on being the grandson of a senator and so on.  Nor did Bush ever teach there.

    Get a grip.  Academic jobs, even low level academic jobs, are extremely competitive.  You don't get them unless you know what you're doing.  You don't teach at a place like the University of Chicago unless you've impressed some of the smartest people in your field. ..

    I work with a Stanford graduate that asks me to proof her communiques because of her poor syntax.

    Of course, you technically mean "who asks me"--what you've written is grammatically incorrect.  By your logic, I could argue that you don't know the English language, but I'd rather assume that you do and that you made a small error while typing quickly.  I'd also like to assume that Obama used some slightly imprecise language while talking to a reporter and don't want to see that imprecision as a reason to declare him as dumb as Bush.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

    [ Parent ]

    Your statement (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by tek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:56:17 AM EST
    is not quite correct.  Every university I've been connected to has lots of faculty who are spouses and other inside appointments that never went through an interview process.  Happens all the time.  As for adjuncts in law schools, these people are frequently lawyers from the community who may or may not have college level teaching credentials.

    [ Parent ]
    legacy (3.66 / 3) (#162)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:21:24 AM EST
    Bush got in on legacy connections and on being the grandson of a senator and so on.  Nor did Bush ever teach there.

    legacy admissions aren't the only way that less qualified students get into the Ivy League....

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (1.00 / 1) (#196)
    by brad12345 on Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:49:38 AM EST
    The racist explanation.  Why didn't I think of that?

    [ Parent ]
    Big woo (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Valhalla on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:02:52 AM EST
    I graduated from a top ten law school too and I say he's wrong.

    I promise you that not all my graduated classmates understood constitutional law such that it would be impossible for them to make a mistake about it.

    Again, it's running on biography vs reality.  Even assuming Obama does understand con law (for the sake of argument I'll even grant that he does), that says nothing about whether he is accurately characterizing the law in his public statements.

    Based on this, why don't we just decide all the legal cases based on which side's lawyer went to a top 10 school?

    [ Parent ]

    Seems like a reasonable statement (3.00 / 8) (#45)
    by SFGeek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:18:13 AM EST
    This site has been full of legitimate complaints about El Presidente Bush's executive orders and signing statements, and that's obviously what Obama was talking about.  As a lawyer, the OP very well understands that administrative law and executive orders are different than legislative actions, and it quiet reasonable for Obama to use the term "law" in front of a lay audience.

    When will TalkLeft return to progressive politics and justice issues and stop being the "one stop shop for super-literal parsing of Democratic candidates"?

    I dunno (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Steve M on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:25:25 AM EST
    Frankly, I'm satisfied for it to be the one blog that doesn't think Hillary wants Obama dead.

    [ Parent ]
    we'll return to that (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 01:18:55 AM EST
    once we have a nominee which is either when one candidate withdraws from the race or delegates actually vote at the convention.

    We are covering both now but we write so many posts a day you have to scroll for the law posts.

    [ Parent ]

    I have to agree... (none / 0) (#128)
    by Siguy on Fri May 30, 2008 at 02:23:40 AM EST
    I think this is a really shoddy topic today.

    From my perspective (and I think the perspective of almost anyone else who read this statement), he was saying he'd make executive orders revoking Bush's executive orders that he feels are unconstitutional.

    That's completely legal and completely sensible and something I desperately want to see happen. Every president does this, usually the first week in office.

    To claim that Obama is talking about changing congressional law with the stroke of a pen seems to me to be a grossly unfair and inappropriate reading of his statement.

    [ Parent ]

    yes and no.... (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by p lukasiak on Fri May 30, 2008 at 07:59:04 AM EST
    this is a political campaign in which someone is claiming to be qualified for President based on a very thin resume that includes an exaggerated claim of being a law professor --

    If Lawrence Tribe had said the same thing, I'd be confident that he knew what he was talking about, and this was just a slip of the tongue.

    And from what we've seen of Obama, there is good reason to think that he would take the same approach to the Constitution that Bush does -- that it matters only when its convenient.

    [ Parent ]

    unfortunately, (none / 0) (#191)
    by tek on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:54:07 AM EST
    before the primaries began, I read articles in which Obama stated that he thinks Bush's Faith Based Initiative is a good program that should be expanded.  Hmmm, wonder what churches would benefit under an Obama administration.

    [ Parent ]
    Presidents don't overturn laws... (none / 0) (#185)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:15:14 AM EST
    Congress revises them and judges can rule on their constitutionality.

    Presidents can rescind executive orders but cannot overturn a law.

    [ Parent ]

    Force of Law (3.00 / 2) (#135)
    by OneOfMany on Fri May 30, 2008 at 03:45:22 AM EST
    Executive orders, do have the force of law, subject only to the Constitution foremost, treaties adopted by the Senate next, followed lastly by laws adopted by Congress and signed or accepted into law by the presidency.  So those who seek to tar and feather Obama as stupid on this latest point, only show a lack of intellectual honesty and curiosity about the truth and irrational animus based on distorted spin, fear, and dissapointment.  I feel sad for my fellow Democrats.  

    Force of law... (none / 0) (#187)
    by kredwyn on Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:21:01 AM EST
    is not the same thing as actually being a law.

    Presidents can't just overturn whatever laws they don't think are appropriate.

    Bush can't...that's part of what the whole wiretapping thing was about. Should he become president, Obama won't be able to either.

    He can rescind some of Bush's executive orders...but they aren't laws passed by Congress.

    [ Parent ]

    qwatz (none / 0) (#4)
    by 2liberal on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:45:54 PM EST
    i assume he was referring to signing statements. Obama does not need to be edumacated about the separation of powers.

    This has come up before (none / 0) (#6)
    by Steve M on Thu May 29, 2008 at 11:46:20 PM EST
    March 2008:

    Barack Obama told a cheering crowd at a town hall meeting in Casper today that he would restore respect for law in the White House by reviewing every executive order issued by President George W. Bush and discarding any deemed unconstitutional. Obama's comments came in response to a question from a man in the audience who said he worried that presidents sometimes consider themselves above the law.

    I don't know why he said "laws" in this latest quote, but I think Jeralyn is appropriately giving him the benefit of the doubt.