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Another Day, Another Marital Affair Allegation Against Trump

The New Yorker reports on an affair Donald Trump had with a Playboy Model while he was married to Melania, just months after Barron was born.

This story, which had been purchased from McDougal before the election but never publicly released, is considered significant by the New Yorker in part because it shows how Trump had a pattern and method of concealing his actions and finances.

I thought it was interesting because it describes how she attended events that Trump attended with his family and met his children.

On the other hand, it's written by Ronan Farrow, who seems to me to be a personal crusade, first with his father Woody Allen, then with Harvey Weinstein, and now with Trump. I wish the article had been written by someone more neutral on the case.

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    And in other news, ... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 03:24:27 PM EST
    ... the sun rose in the east this morning, and is expected to set in the west later this evening.

    Sorry, Jeralyn, but I think that such stories about Trump's serial womanizing are no longer big news, if only because whatever shock value they might otherwise have once had has long since worn off on us.

    Such salacious tales will likely be worthy of further mention only if they prompt Melania to sing "I just adore a penthouse view! Darling, I love you, but give me Park Avenue!" and finally bail out on her cad of a husband, leaving the White House with son Barron to relocate back to New York.

    How about a post on the Special Counsel's indictment of 13 Russians and three Russian entities for interference in the 2016 presidential election? It's all over CNN and MSNBC today, albeit not Fox News, which has instead devoted the balance of its time to the FBI's failure to follow up on the tip about the alleged Parkland, FL high school shooter's violent predilections.

    I agree with you about Ronan Farrow, whose self-righteous demeanor has long annoyed me.

    Aloha. Have a wonderful weekend.

    I don't think this is about shock, as much (none / 0) (#3)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 04:05:46 PM EST
    as it is about a pattern, and ultimately, about more credibility in the claims of the many women who were the object of unwanted sexual/physical attention from Trump.

    Melania's not going anywhere until she wrings every last penny she's entitled to out of the inevitable pre-nup. And even if she meets the requirements, this is Donald Trump we're talking about, the man who doesn't pay his bills.  

    Parent

    Melania (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 04:24:25 PM EST
    Did not do "the walk" with Donald.  No first valentines and reportedly other "signs" Melania may be less than happy with Stormy et al in the news recently.

    How karmic would it be if as Mueller closes in she hits him with a divorce.

    Parent

    I had read (none / 0) (#13)
    by smott on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 02:56:05 PM EST
    That she was preparing to divorce him in 2016, and that was in part why she was so devastated when he won, as she then had to stay w him and act out the First Lady schtick.

    Parent
    Melanie does not have to stay (none / 0) (#14)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 04:50:49 PM EST
    win Trump. There is no law that forbids a president's spouse from filing for divorce. Melanie is choosing to stay married to him.

    She must have her reasons.

    Parent

    Of course she can go at any time, (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 10:49:16 PM EST
    but she's not going unless and until her financial future is secured.  She may be waiting out the terms of a prenup, or hoping she'll do better if the presidency swells the Trump coffers.  Maybe all the evidence of Trump's infidelities are working to her financial advantage.

    I don't know.

    What I do know is that Trump doesn't like paying his obligations - so when and if she walks, she'd better have her own money somewhere, because he will fight her till the cows come home on any kind of prenup.

    If she was any kind of decent human being, she'd go and take her son with her before he turns out to be the same kind of little a-hole his father and two half-brothers are.

    But she may not be a decent human being, and it may be too late for Barron.

    Parent

    I think she does well making it through the (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 04:37:03 AM EST
    Presidency, then 3 books,the before, the during, the after. Employ a great writer who will help her map out life with the Donald. If he found a way to leave her des titute I'd read everyone.

    Parent
    Good plan (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 08:34:28 AM EST
    Because when Mueller is finished with Donald there may be no money

    Parent
    I believe that (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 09:29:40 AM EST
    Donald Trump was just a brand. He's destroyed the brand. His children will have to overcome that if they can. I don't think he's leaving with much outside bad reputations.

    I was surprised at the list of boards that Jared and Ivanka received salaries from. Now that we all know them a lot better, these peeps aren't brilliant. They display moderate intelligence and almost no common sense. Are all the boardrooms of our nation filled with someone's mediocre kids?

    Parent

    I just read an article (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 12:46:58 PM EST
    That the Trump brand is big in India though, why???

    Parent
    Hmm - interesting (none / 0) (#25)
    by smott on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 01:55:18 PM EST
    Having been to India a few times I find that curious....do you have a link MT?

    Generally his hostility to brown people esp those who come here and have jobs in the US economy would make me think he's reviled in the Raj....?

    Parent

    The Times (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 02:53:13 PM EST
    So may be behind a paywall for some

    Link


    Parent

    Maybe, for all his faults (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 04:56:06 PM EST
    she loves the big lug.

    Parent
    Hah! Glad I wasn't drinking ... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 05:25:10 PM EST
    ... when I read that.  Would've needed a new keyboard.

    I am curious about what her prenup says ...

    Parent

    You know I was kidding, right? (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 07:24:39 PM EST
    Yes - of course (none / 0) (#21)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 09:04:27 AM EST
    Hard to imagine anyone sincerely making that claim.

    Parent
    Melania's certainly made her choices, and ... (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    ... she has to live with the consequences, one of which is a child, the Trumps' 12-year-old son Barron. If there's one Trump for whom I have genuine sympathy, it's that young boy.

    You and I have raised kids, Anne, and we know that pre-adolescent children are credulous and absorbing creatures with fragile egos, whose antennae are highly attuned to notice adult hypocrisy. I can only imagine the impact this increasingly garish and now-very public spectacle involving his father is having on his young psyche.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I find the Playmate story hard to believe. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 03:51:44 PM EST
    I read she stated she was "turned on by his intellect." Game over. Fake story.

    The story seems quite (none / 0) (#5)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 05:00:05 PM EST
    plausible to me.  Ronan Farrow did a good job on Weinstein---his passions was necessary to prevail against the winds of power.  Yes, being turned on by Trump's intellect (or anything for that matter) is impossible to fathom,(smacking of fake news, I agree) but then the evaluation of intellect is not only subjective, but also, relative.

      After all, Karen McDougal claims she slept with him because she liked him, not for money..she was not that girl!   It was not, apparently, a one-nighter, but an affair..Trump introduced her to his family (Eric thought she was pretty, so there is that), and Trump even took her to his golden apartment in TrumpTower and showed the playboy model Melania's bedroom.

    You never know what will impact and move a deplorable, surely not anything substantive, other than changing his racial tone for the better.  Otherwise, serial porn/playboy model news is still in the running.

    Parent

    I guess you didn't (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 05:03:27 PM EST
    see the tongue in my cheek.

    Parent
    slow (none / 0) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 07:00:04 PM EST
    On the draw. Got it a little too late.
    .

    Parent
    Melania, we've got a hat for you girl (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 05:06:09 PM EST
    You don't have to live this way

    This (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 17, 2018 at 07:55:11 AM EST
    is actually old news, the WSJ reported on it two days before the election.
    The company that owns the National Enquirer, a backer of Donald Trump, agreed to pay $150,000 to a former Playboy centerfold model for her story of an affair a decade ago with the Republican presidential nominee, but then didn't publish it, according to documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal and people familiar with the matter.

    As referenced by Jeffery Toobin almost a year ago, also in The New Yorker.
    Nevertheless, last year the Wall Street Journal reported that Pecker paid a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to a woman named Karen McDougal, who had alleged that she had a months-long romantic relationship with Trump, beginning in 2006, during his marriage to Melania.
     Farrow just fleshes out out story (pun intended), while the bare bones of the story have been known for over a year.

    When this story broke yesterday I was absolutely sure I had heard it before, but as far as I've seen most of the media has treated it as a new revelation.

    I continue to be gobsmacked by the collective amnesia and intellectual laziness of the media.

    Jill Stein on MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Yman on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 11:14:59 AM EST
    I think she's even more defensive about these indictments than Trump.  Watching her incoherent babbling is painful

    Seems foolish (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 04:26:56 PM EST
    to state that the Russian interference program, just as set forth in the True Bill, did not affect the election results.  It is true that "this indictment" did not provide such hard evidence, but it is certainly a factor not to be easily and summarily dismissed.  

    Stein votes       Trump Margin
    MI 51,463            10,704
    PA 49,678            46,705
    WI 31,006            22,177

    The indictment reveals that the Russian campaign included efforts to make Clinton and Trump the same...no difference, so vote for Stein, for peace and, also, reassured that such a vote would not be wasted.

     Of course, the same tactic was used to foster some Sanders supporters to stay home rather than vote for Hillary.  

    Secretary Clinton would have needed more than MI and WI, and it may have been unreasonable to expect almost all the PA voters to have gone for Mrs. Clinton.  But, similar interference was focused on Florida, which would have compensated for PA.

    A significant factor, in my view, that continues is the Comey letter in the final days of the campaign which was followed by a drop in Clinton polling advantage from about 5% to a more volatile 3%.

     But, in a close election where one candidate won the popular vote and the other the electoral college vote, Russian interference of the magnitude and scope now in the public record should be considered a significant factor in the election's outcome.

     It unreasonable to claim that there was no affect on the results--it is the extent that is not readily quantified. At this point.

    Parent

    Wasn't the win margin even narrower? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Towanda on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 05:32:56 PM EST
    I see media also cite all three of these states, all the time, but I think it's because the results came in at the same time on election night.

    As I do the math: Trump won with 304 Electoral College votes. (Supposed to be 306, but two Texas electors were "faithless.")  To win, 270 are needed.

    So, take away Wisconsin, with 10 EC votes, and Trump still wins, right? That makes the popular-vote margin even narrower, at few more than 55,000 -- not the 77,000 cited for all three states.  

    Or take away Pennsylvania, with 20 EC votes. . . .

    Where is my math wrong on this? Help appreciated.

    Parent

    It was (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 02:54:06 PM EST
    As I said earlier, ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 07:58:00 AM EST
    ... Dr. Jill Stein was, and still is, "a useful idiot." Somehow, she's managed to convince herself that she and her Green Party were a relevant factor in the late 2016 campaign all on their own. The notion that they were indirectly assisted by the massive Russian intelligence operation against Hillary Clinton neatly undercuts that Green narrative.

    So, no doubt, Stein's defensive babbling today was in great part ego-driven. She sees where the Special Counsel's probe is headed, same as the rest of us. And she doesn't want her own role in 2016 to be recalled -- even in footnote -- as that of a easily duped spoiler, in what is increasingly likely to one day be remembered by our progeny as the most infamous presidential election ever in American history.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The Green Party (none / 0) (#45)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 09:32:08 AM EST
    always runs a candidate for President. Would it have mattered if it were Jill Stein or someone else? They always pull some votes from the Democratic candidate. That should be figured into the electoral math.

    I agree that the Comey announcement probably was the thing that sunk her chances, but honestly, why was it EVER such a close race? She ran a lousy campaign and underestimated the effects of her dumb private server decision.

    Parent

    No candidate runs (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 01:19:32 PM EST
    the perfect campaign.  It was a close campaign when you take into account factors such as historical shifts from a party holding the presidency for eight years, changes in the demographics and economic base, a woman as presidential candidate, and the coming off, albeit slowly and successfully, of a major recession unlike anything since the great depression.

      The Russians interference, based on the true bill, was designed to mine these factors, and emphasize and promote discord so as to help Trump and damage Clinton. For example, To criminalize the way Mrs Clinton emailed with actresses dressed up in jail cages at rallies and to normalize the "lock her up" chants.

    Stein was useful as was Sanders in this regard...particularly, for those prone to view both candidates as equally bad.

     But, it was only a part of the Russian effort.  There was the positive efforts on behalf of Trump and organized efforts to attack the black vote, particularly the young black vote...both foreign and domestic.

    The comprehensiveness of the Russian program , discord generally, and lies, deceit and espionage, specifically, for a cumulative tipping effect in what proved a close election.

    Parent

    One of the things I remember from (none / 0) (#51)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 02:05:18 PM EST
    2016 was a lot of talk about how we were never going to break the stranglehold of the two-party system if people didn't bite the bullet and vote for a third-party candidate - that the only way for third party candidates to reach the magic threshold entitling them to public financing was if people voted for them.

    That's true, with or without Russian influence, but it played nicely into Russian hands - who knows how many "people" urging third-party votes were actually bots?

    So, I think in states where it seemed to be a foregone conclusion that Clinton was going to win, some voters felt like they could vote outside the usual GOP/Dem choices, without fear of skewing the election to Trump.

    Nevertheless, she still managed to garner 3+ million more votes than he did.

    But it was clear early on that anti-Clinton forces were hard at work, and they never relented for a second.  Backed up by endless investigations and hearings on Benghazi and her e-mail, and with Trump's visible and vocal insanity on full display, it was hard to find big enough breaks in that noise for Clinton to get her message out where it was most needed.  And it was hard to imagine the hearings and investigations - and near-immediate impeachment efforts - wouldn't start from the moment she was officially the winner.  I think that put a lot of people off, and may have pushed some of them to the third-party side.

    Jim Comey and the FBI clearly had a hand in the outcome - I can't be the only one who never heard a peep about the Trump campaign being under investigation, and there's simply no good reason why.

    In the end, nothing seems to infuriate Trump more than threats to the legitimacy of his election - he doesn't care that Russia could be already working to monkey with the 2018 midterms: he's not going to rest until the world agrees that his victory was real and that his inauguration was the largest in history.  And when Trump is threatened, he says stupid things that could very well lash him firmly to the petard Mueller may be getting ready to hoist him on.

    We can only hope.

    Parent

    The FBI is supposed to do what? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 03:33:13 PM EST
    keep track of every military-style weapon as they get passed around at the rate that McDonald's serves up Big Macs, while at the same time keeping precise track of the movements of every borderline, potential-ticking-timebomb human being in this country?

    An FBI that could do that while doing everything else it's charged to do, would have to be the very Big Government Orwellian monstrosity the Second Amendment crowd is always obsessing about.

    The FBI should round up (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 03:42:23 PM EST
    all the d-bags on the NRA's board of directors for menacing the innocent kids in this country. That's where they're failing.

    Parent
    Our children have been abused (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 11:13:50 AM EST
    Somebody needs to ground those kids (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 11:13:12 AM EST
    In front of the White House.

    Isn't it terrible that our children must demand their right to basic safety because the adults won't do It? The NRA terrorizes our children and the adults do nothing significant to stop it.

    Does anyone think... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 07:42:08 PM EST
    there aren't tens or hundred more "pros" out there that haven't come forward yet?

    What's the tipping point for the base - or does he keep getting mulligans? Family values my skinny arse.

    The party line (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 09:25:47 PM EST
    which has been stated openly recently is that they don't care what Trump has done as much as they care about what policies he puts in place.

    With all the predictable talk of God sometimes using sinners as vehicles for his higher purpose etc etc

    Parent

    AR-15s aimed at children (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 10:56:03 PM EST
    and deregulated markets: just two more outward signs of a nation coming back to God. That God being Shiva the God of Death.

    Parent
    At least two more House seats (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Peter G on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 09:10:26 PM EST
    and perhaps four are likely to swing D under the new Congressional map announced today by the PA Supreme Court, after rejecting the 2011 map as a partisan gerrymander, and then rejecting the legislative Republican caucus's proposed replacement. The R's have threatened to file a new lawsuit, but IMHO they've got nuthin'.

    One analysis states the map the court (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 20, 2018 at 08:14:38 PM EST
    adopted was better for Democrats than the map they proposed.

    Parent
    There were two "Democratic" maps (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Peter G on Tue Feb 20, 2018 at 09:06:24 PM EST
    submitted to the court: one by leaders of our state Senate and one by leaders of the lower house. Like most politicians' maps, those proposals gave weight to protection of (Democratic) incumbents, which I believe the court's final map did not. In fact, for this reason, as I understand it, the state's House and Senate party caucuses were not in agreement on a single plan. The Court majority directed their expert to focus solely on compactness, coherence of political governing units, etc., which enhance democracy, as I understand it. I do not see a gerrymander in the map that the court adopted.

    Parent
    The St. Louis grand jury (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 04:35:59 PM EST
    indicted Republican Governor Eric Greitens of Missouri for felony invasion of privacy. The felony count stems from Greitens extramarital affair during which he tied the woman up, photographed her without permission, and threatened to release the photos if she ever came forward about the relationship.

    The Governor was led away by the sheriff and is in his custody.  

    The governor apparently carried on his affair in the basement of the governor's manse while his wife and children were upstairs.  Sort of a home body.   The governor is a friend of Vice President Pence.  Too bad no one in Missouri had an extra $130,000.

    Well, some good (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 06:57:11 PM EST
    banking news is the bank that issued the NRA credit card has now cut ties with the NRA.

    Marketing Automation (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by michellescott123 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 12:09:11 AM EST
    The Importance of Marketing Automation

    Site Violator - Spam (none / 0) (#65)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 08:39:57 AM EST
    3low (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 06:55:57 PM EST


    Cryptic accident (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 at 06:56:41 PM EST
    Scuse me

    Parent
    Trump is blaming the Florida shooting (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 01:56:33 PM EST
    on the failing FBI. SAD!

    I need a drink or something stronger.

    Other things I read this morning (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 02:56:17 PM EST
    Some of us may suffer from stress induced health problems brought on by this presidency before this is over :(

    Parent
    Well the FBI did fail (none / 0) (#29)
    by fishcamp on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 02:54:28 PM EST
    on the latest school shooting, but it certainly wasn't because they were spending too much time on the Russian investigation.  I know they have plenty of agents to cover both situations.  It's difficult to believe anything he spouts off about.

    Parent
    Without knowing the particulars (none / 0) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 02:59:09 PM EST
    Exactly what should the FBI have done? What could they have legally done? Could they have confiscated his assault rifle based on thoughts he thought?

    Parent
    I haven't read the actual internet post (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Peter G on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 03:53:06 PM EST
    that supposedly referred to a school shooting, but if it amounted to a true threat, it would be a federal crime (see subsection (c)) and thus grounds for arrest by the FBI. Interestingly, under current federal gun laws, being under federal charges makes it illegal to acquire a firearm, but not to continue to possess one you already have. (Compare subsection (d)(1) with subsection (g)(1)).

    Parent
    My understanding (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 04:26:46 PM EST
    Is that it did not. And even if they had wanted to do something all they could have done was knock on his door and try to intimidate.  There was as I understand it no real legal action they could have taken.

    Parent
    Which of course they might have done (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 04:28:35 PM EST
    Then they could have knocked on the other 975 doors of people who make similar statements that day

    Parent
    Yeah, and that's just in Florida (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 08:28:27 PM EST
    this young man obviously slipped through the cracks, but it's no help to the FBI's Florida office that every disaffected, paranoic, armed-to-the-teeth, loose canon seems to migrate down there or spring up out of the native soil at one point or another.

    Parent
    I saw the youtube post (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 at 05:05:46 PM EST
    That simply said he wanted to be a school shooter. People post sarcasm along those lines all the time. I don't see how the FBI can investigate every single remark like that.

    But the tip they got from someone who knew him that they thought he was planning a shooting, I don't know what that entailed.

    Thanks for the statutes Peter. It's one thing to want something done, but what could have actually been done under existing laws? I don't think much could have been done.

    Parent

    The Miami Herald (none / 0) (#40)
    by fishcamp on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 07:20:31 AM EST
    says he was visited 29 times by a variety of police agencies.  I'm not sure what it takes for the FBI or any agency to do something, but 29 visits to his house is a definite clue something is wrong.

    Parent
    Here is an article from Boston Globe (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 07:42:18 AM EST
    Fishcamp which discusses how much effort his teachers had put into trying to get him help. But social services, after doing a risk assessment that it sounds like school demanded, assessed him as low risk.

    Link


    Parent

    I guess you need teachers (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 07:50:16 AM EST
    In your family to know how unremarkable that is.

    Parent
    Yes. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Towanda on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 05:43:04 PM EST
    And we know how many times we try but get no support.

    See the prof at VTech -- with almost twice the number of deaths than in Parkland, Florida -- who tried desperately to get help, when she read the shooter's horrifying essays.

    And the student who held my class hostage and then attacked me was let go with nothing; his mother was a social worker who knew how to work the system.  And the student who stalked me at home and at church as well as on campus and posted death threats against me and another (woman) prof was let off with no more than a TRO, which I had to go to court to get, at my own cost.  (Because the DA laughed at me and said that a prof is a public figure, so we deserve it.)

    The latter was a convicted felon, with dozens of police calls on his record, too.

    And, and, and . . . my family of K12 teachers have dozens of examples. So do the teachers in your school district, and those students are still in your children's and grandchildren's classes, folks.
     

    Parent

    5 teachers in my extended family (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 05:49:14 PM EST
    It always amazes me when I hear this stuff and I think back to my public school experience

    Things like that just didn't happen.  It's impossible to imagine them happening.  But my respect for teachers grows by the year.

    Parent

    With regard to the calls to law enforcement, (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 08:41:31 AM EST
    I think it may have been during a press conference that someone - the sheriff? - talked about that a little bit; I was probably in the car at the time, and I haven't been able to find an actual link.

    Anyway, whoever this was said that you really couldn't tell a whole lot just by looking at the numbers, that in many cases there may have been nothing to the visits, other than that there was a requirement that one be made if a call was received - and there's no way to know whether they were called because of something Cruz did, if it was a neighbor making a complaint they had to check out, or what.

    The more I read about this kid, the more I realize that the system failed him.  According to the NYT, there was an investigation done by the Department of Children and Families, which was subsequently closed because the agency determined Cruz was not a threat to himself of others.

    A Florida social services agency conducted an in-home investigation of Nikolas Cruz after he exhibited troubling behavior nearly a year and a half before he shot and killed 17 people at his former high school in Florida, a state report shows.

    The agency, the Florida Department of Children and Families, had been alerted to posts on Snapchat of Mr. Cruz cutting his arms and expressing interest in buying a gun, according to the report. But after visiting and questioning Mr. Cruz at his home, the department determined he was at low risk of harming himself or others.

    The disciplinary record from the school system contained even more signs that something was wrong:

    Broward County Public Schools disciplinary records obtained on Saturday by The New York Times show Mr. Cruz had a long history of fights with teachers, and was frequently accused of using profane language with school staff. He was referred for a "threat assessment" in January 2017, the last entry in his record, two months after the Department of Children and Families closed its separate investigation into Mr. Cruz's worrisome behavior.

    Howard Finkelstein, the Broward County public defender, whose office is representing Mr. Cruz, said the report was further evidence that Mr. Cruz needed serious help long before the shooting but did not get enough of it.

    "This kid exhibited every single known red flag, from killing animals to having a cache of weapons to disruptive behavior to saying he wanted to be a school shooter," Mr. Finkelstein said. "If this isn't a person who should have gotten someone's attention, I don't know who is. This was a multisystem failure."

    It is also important to note that he was identified at the age of four as being developmentally delayed;  he was also autistic, had ADHD and was suffering from depression.

    And he was legally able to buy a weapon, a combination that had dire consequences for 17 people.

    Clearly, he had problems, one of which was not being well-served by institutional support services.  He was angry and adrift and no one was helping him deal with those things.  How was this going to ever have a good outcome?  

    But what happened isn't about being mentally ill, any more than it is about God having been taken out of the schools, or parent's divorcing or the schools not being able to discipline: it's about the guns.  The guns that are so easy to get.

    Yes, there were warning signs, a lot of them.  The kinds of warning signs that should have prevented Cruz from being able to buy weapons.

    Just because there isn't one all-encompassing piece of legislation that solves the gun problem, doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't take some steps in that direction.  

    One of those steps is to stop voting for people who serve the NRA at the expense of their constituents.

    Parent

    There isn't much institutional support (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 10:59:14 AM EST
    For troubled teens in Florida. Alabama is the same. They expect a kind of cultural authoritarianism to meet all children's social emotional needs.

    Josh said he thinks he has now recovered from Southern school authoritarianism, and can now speak to his teachers here without peppering everything with yes sirs and no ma'ams.

    Teachers here have fuller relationships with their students. This is having a surprising affect on AP courses with Josh, where the teachers are working very closely with their students, often after school. I receive a lot of texts that Josh has decided to stay late and spend extra study time with teachers.

    And he's very content being so attached to his school. Heck, sometimes when I pick him up I tell him we'll swing by a place and get something to eat and I find out someone else already fed my kid. The lack of authoritarianism is IMO leading Josh to be far more autonomous in the last 5 mos.

    Even in applying for colleges and scholarships, the families we still are in contact with in Alabama have parents very involved in the college application process. Springbrook nabbed Josh and taught Josh how to do most of that himself.

    This isn't to say there isn't any authority at Josh's school, it's just culturally a very different atmosphere.

    Would the state of Maryland and a Maryland school system have been better able to help the Cruz boy? I don't know. I don't know the support available here yet for those needs and may never since our nest is almost empty and my teenager parenting almost over.

    Parent

    I don't know if Maryland is any (none / 0) (#49)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 19, 2018 at 12:19:50 PM EST
    better, really, than Florida, in the sense that kids can't help but fall through the cracks, social services agencies are understaffed and overworked; I'm pretty sure there are kids all over the country being failed.  At some point, Cruz checked all the right boxes for having family and community support, and it appears there was no real follow-up.  As in, his mother died and he had to depend on the kindness of non-family for shelter and food.

    And did the family who took him in decide it was better to have Cruz and his AR-15 where they could keep an eye on him/it, than to say he could move in, but he'd have to get rid of the weapon, and risk him just going off by himself?  Apparently, in one article I read, one family did offer to take him in, but without the gun - he refused, and left.

    Is part of the problem that he was too old to come under social services jurisdiction?  And if so, what then?  Are the police then the only option?

    I'm just now seeing that Cruz has a half-brother, Zachary (same mother, different fathers), who was removed on Friday from the home where he and Nikolas had been living and committed to a mental health facility under the Baker Act (involuntary 12-hour hold for psych exam).  The Cruzes adopted Nikolas and Zachary together when Nick was 2 and Zachary was 2 months.  Stepdad died

    The Post article has a flavor of his mom being out of her depth, unable to control him, and denying he was a behavior problem.  I just don't understand how anyone could possibly not have known this kid had serious issues - developmentally delayed, autistic, and after his mother died, depressed.

    The whole thing is just heartbreaking to me, on so many levels.  Yes, 17 people died at his hands, and that's families and friends and community scarred forever, but the more I read, the more it's clear this didn't have to happen - and not just because the FBI didn't follow protocols.

    Parent

    From what I've read, the couple who (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 20, 2018 at 08:12:40 PM EST
    adopted Cruz did obtain help for him, sometimes via the school system, sometimes via social services. I'm not convinced more intervention by mental health professionals would have averted this tragedy. But, then again, given Cruz told law enforcement he was hearing voices telling him what to do and how to do it, perhaps, if accurately diagnosed and medicated, he would not have murdered his victims.

    Parent
    Without your mom (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 01:09:32 PM EST
    Facilitating in the ways she could to get you care, I think his chances of receiving services that would identify the progression of his disease to have dropped to zero in Florida.

    His childhood home was obviously middle class. Where he was headed after the death of his parents coupled with his mental illness is pretty unpredictable and unserviced in Florida.

    Parent

    How old were Cruz and his brother (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 03:00:18 PM EST
    when they were adopted?  Fetal alcohol syndrome? Drug addiction?  Looks like Cruz was a problem at school from an early age and a known problem in the neighborhood.while his adoptive mother was alive. Plus cruelty to animals.

    He was in a high school for special needs students but left. Why?

    Parent

    I was just told nobody in the house (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 05:26:15 PM EST
    Is allowed to say anything snide or judgemental about the armed officer who didn't run into the bullets of an AR 15. Plenty of combat soldiers decided not to do it in Iraq and Afghanistan and normal people are terrified in those situations.

    I'm just sitting here letting that sink in. There is no real reliable fearless good guy with a magic sheild who stops the evil bad guy with an assault rifle. That person does not exist outside the Justice League.

    Parent

    some crazy high percentage of soldiers who either don't fire their weapons or shoot them up in the air or something.

    Obviously that's not always the case as soldiers do get shot, so some of them must be aiming and firing.

    Probably also some studies about what percentage of police officers do/don't engage the bad guy, I'm just too lazy to google...

    Anyway, likewise, while there are some civilian "good guys with a gun" who, when the sh1t hits the fan, will not be made of the stuff that would result in them attempting to stop a shooter, but there are others who are.

    Parent

    How can you tell who (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 06:24:57 PM EST
    Will run to the bullets and who won't? Spouse says there's no tell until you get into a combat situation. There is no training for it. You either do it or you can't when the $hit hits the fan.

    Parent
    Banning assault weapons (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 07:22:58 PM EST
    Is much more a sure thing.

    Parent
    I disagree. (none / 0) (#110)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 07:30:32 PM EST
    But of course (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 08:49:27 PM EST
    And SO?

    Parent
    I have been watching the (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 07:01:25 PM EST
    BKACK MIRROR series on NETFLIX.  I just plugged an episode.  

    But there is another episode in season 3 that deals with the issue of soldiers who shoot over the enemys head.  It's called MEN AGAINST FIRE.

    It tells the story of the rather brilliant way a future military fixes that problem.

    Parent

    I read about the neighbor that took (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 05:39:25 PM EST
    Cruz to his mother's funeral. Neighbor said nobody except the adopted boys came to her funeral. My God!

    He also said the boy was a monster. The family was probably very isolated because of the behavior of the oldest son :(

    He was diagnosed ADD and autistic according to some reports.

    Parent

    As you know (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 06:54:31 PM EST
    my oldest son has ADHD and there is no way any boy with that diagnosis should be anywhere near a gun without serious adult supervision and generally should be kept away from guns. I would be fine with an ADHD diagnosis keeping someone from getting a gun. These kids have serious impulse control issues and them with guns is a toxic deadly situation because they do not think before they do anything.

    Parent
    ADHD is a spectrum. A wide spectrum. (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 07:18:33 PM EST
    SOME of "these kids do not think before they do anything," but not at all ALL of them. My son being one of the latter.

    Parent
    My grandson has been recently (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 06:58:13 PM EST
    Diagnosed too and on medication now.

    Parent
    My experience of Alabama and Florida (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 20, 2018 at 02:19:21 PM EST
    Is that culturally the population has voted that the jail and prison system tends to their Cruzes. So nothing much is done until the worst has happened.

    Alabama has no money to do any sort of real social service work with, nor do they intend to provide any such services in the future. The two local licensed social workers I knew both quit working for the state because in their words it's hopeless. They both pronounced the state government hopelessly broken in that area. And they both went to work for the federal government helping military families while they both continue to vote Republican in Alabama. I saw that over and over again. A Conservative mindset that as long as they are doing okay, they don't care about anyone else. They have no personal drive to do the right thing either. They just want a decent paycheck and not have to deal with the real suffering their own votes create.

    Parent

    In 2013 the school board in Broward County (none / 0) (#86)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 12:20:53 PM EST
    made an agreement with the FL police, state attorney, etc., to, in short, "go easy" on HS students' misconduct and misdemeanors.

    Perhaps if this agreement was not in place the 29 police visits would have been taken more seriously?

    Parent

    two ways to think about this (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by CST on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 12:52:14 PM EST
    And they both come down to the question "when is someone an adult?"

    One argument would be that we need the police to be tougher on High School students.  The other argument would be that maybe they shouldn't be able to purchase weapons.

    Right now what we have is confusion on the subject.  In some cases 18 year olds are treated as adults, in other cases they aren't.  The lines we've created are arbitrary, and they leave gaping holes such as the one you mentioned above.

    We trust 18 year olds with guns but not booze.  We trust them with war but not to regulate their actions and emotions in school.  It's confusing and problematic on a lot of levels.

    Parent

    The frontal lobe (none / 0) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 06:56:24 PM EST
    on many boys does not develop until they are 25 years old and that is the critical thinking part of the brain.

    Parent
    The county sheriff volunteered that (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 08:00:12 PM EST
    Cruz had no criminal record. Which surprised me. At least in CA, juvenile court records are not public records, even as to a person who is no longer a juvenile.

    Parent
    All schools are closed (none / 0) (#64)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 05:51:01 AM EST
    Today in my local school district due to online threats.

    School in session here (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 09:06:34 AM EST
    I received a message this morning directing high school students who wanted to walk out, to show the Florida HS victims/now activists support, where the school is asking them to walk out to. For student safety. They will be allowed to protest and share their views there also.

    Are the threats to shoot students walking out?

    Parent

    Unspecified threats (none / 0) (#67)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 09:58:18 AM EST
    from social media. NOT related to walkouts. The threats are primarily at the elementary and middle schools. Not the high school.

    On a related note, the Florida doesn't have time to debate gun control but P0RN is a critical health threat to Florida children. They have time for that.

    My apologies to TalkLefters in that state, but I lived in both Jacksonville (AKA lower Alabama) and the Tampa area (Zephyrhills and Temple Terrace). You can have that state. If I never set foot in Florida again, my life will be complete. It's flat, ugly, rains EVERY DAY (sunshine state my a$$). And too much of the population, IMHO, are the dregs of society.

    Parent

    The sickness is spreading, (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 10:53:06 AM EST
    and I fear the result will not be saner, more sensible gun laws/regulations, but schools that operate like prisons, with metal detectors, backpack screenings, armed administrators, sally ports and school resource officers whose resumes may include work as prison guards.

    That is not the answer.  School should not be a prison.  If I were a teacher, I would refuse to teach under those circumstances.

    It looks like there is a large crowd of students marching in DC today - I'm hoping the March 24th event rivals or exceeds the Women's March numbers.

    Parent

    I think you are correct, Anne. (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 11:57:08 AM EST
    Unfortunately. This is how right wingers think. They think the border wall is a good start. The only thing anyone is talking about is more background checks. As if this is the panacea for mass shootings. It's not. Background checks are a one time incident and if the person has not yet done anything wrong, they are worthless. It's like pre-employment drug screens. You can be a raging alcoholic, you pass. Or pass the drug screen, get hired, then go home and bang heroin every night. You passed.

    I've come to the decision that I am willing to give up some 2nd Amendment rights to live in a society where I don't have to be patted down, groped, wanded or pass through metal detectors in order to attend a concert. Visit a government office. See a veteran's rep. Take public transportation.

    We need a culture change. It's not the wild west anymore. People should not be allowed to walk into a restaurant or grocery shop with rifles slung over their shoulder in a civil society (I'm talking open carry laws).

    But the kneejerk GOP reaction will be more walls, checkpoints, more guns. More carnage.
     

    Parent

    I was a teacher (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 05:49:46 PM EST
    If I were young, I would quit rather than work under conditions that were prison-like.  I had some friends who used to teach in juvenile detention facilities, and yes, they were prison-like and I could not have handled that.
    And the idea suggested by some that teachers should be armed.........
    Oh, really?  Teachers are not first responders.  
    Are districts going to pay them more, plus pay for their training, their guns, their liability insurance?  In districts that won't even pay for enough books, pencils, and copy paper for the schools?
    I taught the developmentally disabled and severely emotionally disturbed, including kids who were self abusive and aggressive.  So if I had to physically restrain them (which I did have to do from time to time), what if they grabbed my gun?  
    I give up.  This country is circling the toilet and about to be flushed away.

    Parent
    White House "listening session" a setup (5.00 / 6) (#77)
    by Towanda on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 06:18:31 PM EST
    today for Trump to call for what the NRA wants:

    Arming the teachers. And the custodians. And the lunch ladies.  Yes, he really said that.

    Photographers also captured Trump's crib notes, held in his hand.  He had to have a note that reminded him to say "I hear you."

    Not that he did . . . as after he opened the event by calling on a pastor to give thoughts and prayers, Trump talked again, then Pence talked, then Trump talked again, then Devos talked, then Trump talked again. . . .  It must have taken fifteen minutes to get to the  "listening" in the "listening session."

    I could stand no more. I started to cry at the thought of my daughter being forced to have a gun -- because that's what our state legislators, too, voted for last night. It can be no coincidence that Trump called for that today.  The NRA is running this show.

    So, I can only see this all getting worse.

    Parent

    Oh for the love of (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 07:00:30 PM EST
    Jeebus.
    They don't want teachers, they want cops and prison guards.
    I cry for your daughter, and all current and potential teachers, as well.  And for their students.
    This is just going to get worse and worse.  :-(


    Parent
    I listened to part of it in the car, and then (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Anne on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 07:03:23 PM EST
    watched the rest on TV when I got home.

    As I was driving, the words of the young man - Sam Zeif - brought me to tears.  The anguish, the disbelief that this was being allowed to go on, the fear - do I think Trump "heard" any of it?  Do I think the man who had to have a note to remind him to say, "I hear you" has even a rudimentary grasp of the issue, beyond saying things less substantive than what I've seen on bumper stickers?

    Hell, no.  

    And Mark Barden, the Sandy Hook dad, who related that his wife - a teacher - told him that teachers have enough responsibility without having to be responsible for possibly taking a life.

    I veer between wanting to sob and wanting to rage.  

    And why, pray tell, was Trump bookended by two attractive young women?  

    Parent

    Yes, for (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 09:08:00 AM EST
    all the careful orchestration, the  Trumpian seating arrangement was provocatively cringe-worthy.  When Trump moved to comfort one of the young women (the one on his right) she seemed uncomforted.  Trump's record made me expect a TicTac moment.

    Parent
    I couldn't watch it (none / 0) (#80)
    by Zorba on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 07:11:35 PM EST
    I pretty much knew more or less what he was going to say.
    And I can no longer abide listening to the orange, ferret-wearing......well, I shall skip the rest of the description.
    He has absolutely no feelings of empathy for anybody else.
    But then, narcissists generally dont.  It's all about them.


    Parent
    Running gun battles and firefights (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 08:53:59 PM EST
    In the hallways. Yeah, that's the ticket. Even trained cops can't hit what they're shooting at half the time and Cadet Bone Spurs thinks arming teachers and lunch ladies is going to save the day. Well, the lunch ladies, maybe.

    Notice it is usually moron chickenhawks who have never been shot pushing these ideas. Might as go whole hog. Break out the razor wire and install sally ports.

    Parent

    Nuns with guns. (none / 0) (#83)
    by KeysDan on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 10:36:20 AM EST
    We just need to think back about our school daze and try to imagine our teachers being armed.  Hard for me to visualize Sister Imaculata pack'n.  

    Parent
    Wayne LaPierre, who gives Trump (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 11:56:34 AM EST
    his marching orders, says we should model ourselves on Israel.

    Fine. By all means, lets. Israel averages 1 gun for every 30 citizens and the U.S has more guns than citizens.

    Some of Trump's base likes to chant "Jews will not replace us"? At this point, I'd be perfectly happy with them replacing a lot of us.


    Parent

    And arming teachers tells shooters (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 11:17:13 AM EST
    whom to take out first.  Wilth a machine gun against a handgun.

    And again at the end, when SWAT teams enter, any armed teachers still standing will be taken down, too.

    Parent

    That's an excellent point. (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 12:52:50 PM EST
    With regard to when the police do show up. If you arm 20% of the staff, how are do figure out who is who? Anyone holding a firearm when they show up runs of the risk of ending up dead. None of the NRA lackeys have thought this through.

    Parent
    Oh they've thought it through... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 01:36:39 PM EST
    the only function of a gun & ammunition manufacturers & sellers lobby is to push any and every lame-brained idea that could conceivably lead to more gun and ammunition sales.

    And to poo-poo any and every idea that might reduce gun and ammunition sales.  

    Parent

    Well, maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    while the teacher is closing blinds and shepherding children into closets, trying to calm and quiet them, figure out how close the shooter is, he or she can don a Kevlar vest marked "GGWG" - Goog Guy/Gal with Gun - make sure their gun is ready to go - and then decide whether to go in the closet with the kids or stay out to await the shooter.

    My point being that they aren't going to be able to be fully attendant to the needs of their students if they have to be focused on possibly needing to shoot someone and hoping they have time to make sure that whoever comes through the door is actually the shooter and not a fellow teacher, a student looking for shelter or a cop.

    The whole thing is just insane, and nothing makes that more clear than the zeal with which Trump is pushing it (now he wants to offer bonuses to teachers who carry - there's never enough money for raises or school supplies or more teachers, but they can find money for guns?).

    Jesus.

    Parent

    Thought? (none / 0) (#92)
    by Zorba on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 01:59:34 PM EST
    Thought?
    When do they ever actually think?

    Parent
    Florida is flat (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 11:27:17 AM EST
    Flat like the Yucatan.  Except the Yucatan does have small, tiny actually, "hills" but those are usually ruins.

    Parent
    They call it The Second Chance state (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 11:35:48 AM EST
    as in, f*ck up somewhere else and then move to Florida.

    Parent
    Well folks there are problems (none / 0) (#72)
    by fishcamp on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 12:50:49 PM EST
    everywhere. I came down here to catch fish nd that's what I do.  It's not dangerous where I live in the middle Keys.  My house withstood ten hours of 140 mph winds from hurricane Irma.  I don't go up north unless I have to.  

    However tomorrow I am going up to Homestead for a root canal, and that does scare me.  I do like my new half price Cuban dentist, but I may not like her as much after the dreaded root canal.

    Parent

    Root canals today are actually no big whoop (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Peter G on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 01:48:02 PM EST
    Nothing like they used to be, even ten years ago, thanks to rapidly advancing dental technology and modern anaesthesia. (I hope your half-price dentist keeps current.) And when I try to imagine what my grandfather-the-dentist's patients went through in the 1920s and 1930s, I just cringe.

    Parent
    Peter G, you were correct. (none / 0) (#95)
    by fishcamp on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 04:06:18 PM EST
    My half price Cuban dentista did a wonderful job on the root canal and she's totally up to date with equipment and knowledge.  She went through the top of a very old gold crown and hit both roots immediately..  she charged $900 so I don't really know if that's half price or not.  The drive up and back were worse than the root canal.  

    Jeralyn, sorry about going off topic.

    Parent

    Isn't there (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 04:01:11 PM EST
    a joke somewhere in there about all the people from NY who move to Florida?

    Parent
    The elephant graveyard.. (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 21, 2018 at 05:54:30 PM EST
    I've thought for awhile that there's a symbiotic relationship between the plethora of scam artists and fraudsters and the perceived vulnerability of a lot of the senior citizens who retire down there.

    A 60 Minutes producer at one point said looking for scam artists in Florida was like looking for art in Louvre.

    Parent

    But taxes are sooooo low. (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 02:32:46 PM EST
    Cowboy boots (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Thu Feb 22, 2018 at 05:10:26 PM EST
    he's an ole wrangler like Roy Moore.