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DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee Members

If you are curious about who is on the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee that will be deciding on Florida and Michigan, here's the list with their affiliations. (Don't laugh, it lists Donna Brazile as "uncommitted")

The tally: Hillary has 13 supporters, Obama 8 and 7, in addition to the 2 co-chairs have not yet endorsed. The member from Florida is an Obama supporter. One of the co-chairs, Alexis Herman, was one of Bill Clinton's cabinet members.

Co-Chairs - no endorsement
Alexis Herman (co-chair, Washington , D.C. )
James Roosevelt, Jr. (co-chair, Massachusetts )

Members - Clinton supporters (13)

Hartina Flournay (DC)
Donald Fowler (SC)
Harold Ickes, Jr. (DC)
Alice Huffman (CA)
Ben Johnson (DC)
Elaine Kamarck (MA)
Eric Kleinfeld (DC)
Mona Pasquil (CA)
Mame Reiley (VA)
Garry Shay (CA)
Elizabeth Smith (DC)
Michael Steed (MD)
Jaime Gonzalez, Jr. (TX)

Members - Obama supporters (8) [More...]

Martha Fuller Clark (NH)
Carol Khare Fowler (SC)
Janice Griffin (MD)
Thomas Hynes (IL)
Allan Katz (FL)
Sharon Stroschein (SD)
Sarah Swisher (IA)
Everett Ward (NC)

Members - no known endorsement (7)

Donna Brazille (DC)
Mark Brewer (MI)
Ralph Dawson (NY)
Yvonne Gates ( NV)
Alice Germond (DC) - DNC Secretary
David McDonald (WA)
Jerome Wiley Segovia (VA)

One to keep your eye on: New York lawyer Ralph Dawson. It was his idea to strip the states of their delegates. He contributed $1,000 to Obama. He says he's also given to Hillary. Can he really be uncommitted at this juncture? Maybe... he says his primary goal is nominating the one that is more electable in November, rather than his personal preference.

Another "uncommitted" , David T. McDonald of Washington has already nixed Hillary's idea publicly:

McDonald said he wouldn't respond well if Clinton wanted to seat delegates based on the contests that already took place in the two states.

"If she makes the motion to allocate 'beauty contest' delegates, she will not get support from me," he said. "If she gives [the states] a chance to comply with rules, I will consider it, but they were given 30 days to comply already."

Here's an oddity: Jerome Wiley-Segovia. Although from Virginia, he was appointed by Dean to represent the Latino vote. He thinks Obama has a better chance of winning but praises Hillary's campaign for its "competency."

Homework for the willing googler: Are any of those supporting Hillary on record as being in favor of counting MI and FL as is?

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    Yvonne Gates (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by hlr on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:18:07 AM EST
    is an Obama supporter. She has stated that she thing's it's fair to split the delegates 50-50.

    I have no idea why they claim "no known endorsement."

    proof (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by hlr on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:20:08 AM EST
    "It has to be a fair process for both candidates," said member Yvonne Gates, an Obama supporter from Nevada who said she wasn't sure what position she would support at the meeting. "My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair. It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

    source

    [ Parent ]

    lol (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by boredmpa on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:22:55 AM EST
    that's ridiculous...i mean talking about fairness in an actual primary (not a caucus) where over half a million people actually went out and voted and we have exit polls that show Obama would have gotten 35%.

    Anything more than that is less fair, especially since Obama and Edwards surrogates were telling people to show up and vote uncommitted in order to make HRC look bad.

    [ Parent ]

    re: "fair to the candidates" (5.00 / 6) (#141)
    by arky on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:52:27 AM EST
    How about being fair to the voters? The ones who actually took the time and trouble to cast their votes??
    They cannot, CANNOT, award any delegates to Obama from either Michigan or Florida without changing the DNC's Delegate Selection Rules.
    I read the rules.
     Rule 13.A. "Fair Reflection of Presidential Preference."
    Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters.
    No one in Michigan expressed a presidential preference for Obama, therefore he gets no delegates. Rule 20.C.2. addresses what happens when delegates are awarded in violation of Rule 13.
    Florida:
    Rule 20.C.1.b. of the Delegate Selection Rules:
    "A Presidential candidate who campaigns in a state in violation of the timing provisions of the rules,... may NOT receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state."

    We all know that Obama had TV ads running in Florida and that he also held a press conference there. Both of those activities violate Rule 20.C.1.b.   Conclusion: Obama gets no delegates.

    Rule 11.A. Addresses the timing of primaries/caucuses. Iowa, NH, and SC also violated the timing rules but were not penalized.
    Arbitrary and capricious application of the Rules is the last thing I would call FAIR.

    [ Parent ]

    As is Donna B. (none / 0) (#2)
    by catfish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:19:06 AM EST
    So that gives 11 to Obama, 13 to Hillary, 4 unknown.

    Too close for comfort - this is going to be a nail-biter.

    [ Parent ]

    well (none / 0) (#4)
    by hlr on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:22:35 AM EST
    Jerome Segovia supports Hillary ... Weird how I know all this stuff, but the DNC doesn't.

    [ Parent ]
    McDonald & Roosevelt --> Obama (none / 0) (#164)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:17:07 AM EST
    Is McDonald the genius that said he would only consider that FL Dems had made a good faith effort to block the date change if every single Democrat in FL voted against it? I would put him in the Obama camp. Also include co-chair Roosevelt. He has said he will never allow MI and FL votes to be determinative. This was well after he knew they would benefit Hillary. So put him in the Obama camp as well.

    [ Parent ]
    split or not split (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:22:57 AM EST
    The numbers are the same proportionally because you are splitting based on a percentage then multiplying by .50. The percentage stays the same.

    The only reason to split the delegates is to prevent Hillary from catching up.

    It's a farce

    This is a GREAT WaPo Article (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:53:29 AM EST
    if not now, when (5.00 / 2) (#193)
    by urduja on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:32:39 AM EST
    great argument for supporting clinton

    [ Parent ]
    Corruption & Fraud should not be rewarded (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by chopper on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:33:43 AM EST
    How can you possibly not honor the voters in legitimate primaries, but you want to honor the votes/delegates from inequitable and undemocratic  caucuses that were rampant with fraud, corruption, and in some cases with threats and assaults to force the voters out without voting, or to sit down, shut up, and be ignored without voting?

    Via Real Clear Politics:

    Hillary won Florida by 294,772 votes.
    Hillary won Michigan by 328,309 votes

    Hillary won 150,000 more votes than Obama last night in Kentucky and Oregon. She won Kentucky by 249,224 votes while Obama won Oregon by 102,144 votes.

    Let's add it all up:

    Popular Vote Totals (w/FL & MI)Hillary leads by 174,047 votes (.48%.)

    Popular Vote Totals (w/FL & MI and Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA): Hillary leads by 63,825 votes (.18%)

    I would not acknowledge "votes" from corrupt, fraudulent, and un-democratic caucuses.

    Regardless of what the DNC does on May 31 with FL and MI delegates, the popular votes were certified by the states. Their numbers are real and they must be added to her popular vote total.

    Obama removed himself from the ballot by choice, not requirement. This is a consequence of his strategic decision to avoid embarrassment. He needs to accept it.


    Everyone knew the rules (4.00 / 4) (#70)
    by ibextati on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:50:43 AM EST
    HRC didn't complain about the caucus system and FL & MI not being able to seat their delegates until she figured out that she's losing the election.

    [ Parent ]
    Rules? (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by dianem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:33:27 AM EST
    Nobody thought that this election would be as close as it is. When they stripped FL and MI of their delegates, they were simply sending back to the back of the line, where they would have been anyway - so far back in the process that their decision wouldn't matter anyway. But it didn't work that way. Now we are faced with a very close election and we've told a large segment of voter's that they can't participate. How is that fair? Rules? Please. It's our party - we make the rules, we can change the rules.

    Besides, there was never a rule agreed to. When did Clinton and Obama sign some kind of pledge saying "Whoever gets the most delegates in all states and territories other than Florida and Michigan will be our candidate"? When did they agree to not try to change the results from FL and MI? Obama has convinced a lot of people that some mythical "rules" prevent us counting these two states, because it benefits him. But it's not true, any more than his claim that the person who wins more delegates has to win the primary. That's why he's worried. Because he knows that he's built his case for a primary win on shadows. This is going to go to the convention, and he will have to make his case there. He's poisoning the well so that if he doesn't win, then Clinton can't win the GE.

    [ Parent ]

    When? (none / 0) (#125)
    by minordomo on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:45:50 AM EST
    When did Clinton and Obama sign some kind of pledge saying "Whoever gets the most delegates in all states and territories other than Florida and Michigan will be our candidate"?

    When they signed the pledge not to participate in those elections. At the time, they were made aware in writing that this action was to support the DNC committee's penalty of stripping MI and FL of 100% of their delegates if they did not comply with the DNC calendar.

    It was this same committee (including these Hillary supporters) that voted to strip MI and FL of 100% of their delegates. Dean asked the candidates to support this penalty, and they complied, being fully aware of the penalty imposed (incl. Clinton).

    [ Parent ]

    They didn't sign a pledge not to participate. (none / 0) (#157)
    by masslib on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:44:31 AM EST
    They signed a pledge not to personally campaign.  Both candidates had major campaigns in the state via surrogates.

    [ Parent ]
    Not so. They did - (none / 0) (#177)
    by minordomo on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:04:21 AM EST
    - sign a pledge not to participate or campaign.

    I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus  before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.  

    You'll find this commonly abbreviated to only campaigning by Hillary supporters, but the candidates did in fact agree not to participate.


    [ Parent ]

    The Rules and Bylaws Committee (none / 0) (#202)
    by ding7777 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:49:38 AM EST
    will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.

    as "campaigning" is defined by rules and regulations of the DNC.

    DNC Delegate Selection Rules: (pdf)

    "Campaigning" for purposes of this section includes, but is not limited to, purchasing print, internet, or electronic advertising that reaches a significant percentage of the voters in the aforementioned state; hiring campaign workers; opening an office; making public appearances; holding news conferences; coordinating volunteer activities; sending mail, other than fundraising requests that are also sent to potential donors in other states; using paid or volunteer phoners or automated calls to contact voters; sending emails or establishing a website specific to that state; holding events to which Democratic voters are invited; attending events sponsored by state or local Democratic organizations; or paying for campaign materials to be used in such a state. The Rules and Bylaws Committee will determine whether candidate activities are covered by this section.


    [ Parent ]
    Except that of course (none / 0) (#222)
    by frankly0 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 10:49:40 AM EST
    the only real word that gets defined here is "campaign", not "participate" -- which basically means that "participate" has no real binding meaning in this context, and is essentially empty.

    [ Parent ]
    RE: When (none / 0) (#219)
    by melro on Thu May 22, 2008 at 10:12:34 AM EST
    This is a PDF from Senator Levin and MI DNC chair Debbie Dingell that explains a lot.

    http://www.michigandems.com/Levin-Dingell%20Letter.pdf

    NH should have been reprimanded in the first place by Howard Dean and none of this would have happened.

    And what pledge? The DNC did not command anyone to do anything. They can urge, recommend, and warn. 4 candidates put their names on, 4 candidates did not. Then there was Uncommitted, and Other on the ballot where you can do a write in. Every voter here in MI was advised of this.  

    MI's DNC urged voters to use the uncommitted box instead of the write in box if they wanted to vote for candidates on the ballot. Write In candidates had a Jan. 4th deadline to file as a write in. I believe the law is within 10 days before the primary. We're well aware of that write in box. It's on every ballot.

    It's not like it was just Hillary and Uncommitted. There were 6 choices. Obama and those that pulled their names could have simply filed papers just 10 days before, but failed to do that. That's 2 chances to be counted that Obama missed.

    Now he's real sorry and the last I heard was that the compromise was 69 delegates for Hillary, and 59 for Obama. He likes it. Hillary hadn't commented.

    He should get zip for missing not one but two chances to be on our ballot. A savvy political candidate wouldn't, shouldn't make that mistake. It doesn't take an Einstein to know that it would be nearly impossible in the U.S. to disregard an entire state especially after the last two elections .

    As for FL, I thought his name was on the ballot there? Any Floridians got the answer?  

    [ Parent ]

    Stupid question (1.00 / 2) (#11)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:36:55 AM EST
    I though that the delegates were what mattered here?

    [ Parent ]
    they are (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by manish on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:15:34 AM EST
    The rules are the delegates are what matters.  The rules also are that MI and FL are stripped of their delegates.  The rules also are that the super-delegates have their role.  The Clinton campaign wants to change the rules mid-election.  At one time, they were defending the role that the supers play even though many saw it as undemocratic.

    Beyond the fact that popular vote isn't the metric that our nominee should be selected on is the point that even if we are counting the popular vote, you can't possibly claim that nobody in MI supported Obama.  Lest we also forget that there were lots of Democrats in both MI and FL who chose to stay home because they didn't want to bother voting in what was termed a beauty contest.

    [ Parent ]

    Stop lying (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Regency on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:26:37 AM EST
    The rules allow for a 50% penalty. Nowhere do they account for a full on 100% abolishment of the delegation. That decision what made, encouraged, and incited by Obama supporters on the Rules & Bylaws Committee in August. Donna Brazile was apart of the charge. By all means, google it.

    [ Parent ]
    In August? (2.33 / 3) (#65)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:38:17 AM EST
    http://www.slate.com/id/2188985/

    Slate claims that Hillary supporters were behind the move, and I belive the rules provide for harsher penalties if they are agreed upon.

    Here is a quote:

    Of the committee's 30 members, a near-majority of 12 were Clinton supporters. All of them--most notably strategist Harold Ickes--voted for Florida's full disenfranchisement.

    But I am open to argument as to why this article is bull.

    [ Parent ]

    Harold Ickes supported stripping all delegates (none / 0) (#72)
    by ibextati on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:54:16 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So did Donna Brazile (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Regency on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:56:49 AM EST
    Suddenly, our surrogates most definitely speak for our candidates, right?

    I'll remember that the next time Donna Brazile or Roland Martin say we don't need PA, OH, or WV--oh, or the white working class voters.

    Harold Ickes is not Hillary Clinton. HRC has made her opposition to this course of action clear. She's been making it clear for a long time.

    [ Parent ]

    Surrogates do speak for the candidate (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by dianem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:35:48 AM EST
    The problem is that we've stretched the definition of "surrogate" to mean anybody who supports the candidate. That's not what it means. A surrogate is somebody authorized to speak for the candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    does anyone have a link to Obama's memo? (none / 0) (#137)
    by Josey on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:40:03 AM EST
    that Hillary referenced in her Jan. 21 press release.

    >>>Just last week the Obama campaign snubbed the people of Florida in a memo that stated that Florida did not matter in the nominating process.
    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=5374


    [ Parent ]

    Josey (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by standingup on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:48:15 AM EST
    The St. Petersburg Times has an article on the memo here.  

    [ Parent ]
    Check HillaryClintin.com and FactHub (none / 0) (#149)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:11:44 AM EST
    archives show a long list of Obama misrepresentations each month and her documentation suporting her objections.  Maybe some stuff about it there or else in HillaryHub sections where they show articles , releases and often Jeralyn's fab diaries.

    [ Parent ]
    Here is something interesting (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by madamab on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:45:17 AM EST
    from Salon.com on January 15th.

    Obama was the one pushing the "Michigan doesn't matter" line, because he was losing. Meanwhile, HRC had always intended to fight for those votes AND delegates from MI and FL.

    "While Sen. Clinton will honor her commitment not to campaign in Florida in violation of the pledge, she also intends to honor her pledge to hear the voices of all Americans," the campaign says. "The people of Michigan and Florida have just as much of a right to have their voices heard as anyone else. It is disappointing to hear a major Democratic presidential candidate tell the voters of any state that their voices aren't important ... Sen. Clinton intends to be president for all fifty states. And while she will honor the pledge she signed and not campaign in either state, she intends to continue to give every American a voice during this election and when she gets to the White House."

    MMMMMmmmmmMMMMMMkay?

    Can people please stop lying about HRC saying the votes "didn't count" now?

    [ Parent ]

    well - kudos to whoever finds it (none / 0) (#175)
    by Josey on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:00:09 AM EST
    because this needs to be exposed.


    [ Parent ]
    If Ikcles is not Hillary (none / 0) (#81)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:10:44 AM EST
    then Brazile must not be Obama....so let's stop acting as if they are, shall we?

    [ Parent ]
    I seem to be getting two (none / 0) (#55)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:22:30 AM EST
    distinct stories here.

    I wonder which one is correct?

    [ Parent ]

    stayed home (none / 0) (#216)
    by tedsim on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:19:38 AM EST
    I live in north palm beach,flrida no one stayed home because it was a beauty contest,the reason it was a record turnout is because there was a proposal on the ballot to increase the homstead exemption 100% from $25,000 to 50,000 which means that it would reduce realestate tax,s considerable.

    [ Parent ]
    what matters (none / 0) (#144)
    by arky on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:58:22 AM EST
    I thought it was the voters that mattered. Silly me....of the people, by the people, and for the people??

    [ Parent ]
    So you want to disenfranchise all those who... (none / 0) (#26)
    by EddieInCA on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:51:49 AM EST
    ...voted "Uncommitted" in Michigan by not awarding their votes to any candidates?

    Seems all those who espouse giving Obama "Zero" Michigan votes in the popular vote are, in fact, disenfranchising those voters who voted for Obama via the "Uncommitted" choice.

    [ Parent ]

    Uncommitteds may vote for any one (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:53:39 AM EST
    about 10 percent of them will probably go with Hillary because she has picked up Edwards' voters

    [ Parent ]
    Chuckie....Here is an idea...maybe they can get (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:15:52 AM EST
    a seer to touch the uncommitted ballots so they can discern which ones go to obama.... :)  

    [ Parent ]
    they don't know what uncommitted means (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:34:11 AM EST
    The only thing certain is 55 percent voted for Hillary. The uncommitted didn't even know who they prefer, hence uncommitted.

    [ Parent ]
    The max obama deserves (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by boredmpa on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:10:02 AM EST
    Is 35%, per the exit polls that asked the specific question.  And the full exit polls (not the earlies) on CNN are usually within 1% of the actual vote.

    As such, he would get about 195k (instead of the full 238).

    -----

    That doesn't resolve the delegate count, and I don't know if there are regional issues.  But the idea floated around to give him 50% of the delegates is ludicrous.  He shouldn't be rewarded for the game he chose to play (and he did play it, and according to BTD he also pushed punishing MI when he was pandering to Iowa).

    [ Parent ]

    If a precinct captain took a box of votes (none / 0) (#107)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:36:45 AM EST
    and changed them to be for somebody else, she would go to jail for election fraud, wouldn't she?  If Jerrlyn decided that all talklefters would get Starbucks lattes free, would you get out of the store without paying?  No because a higher value would be operating.  Saying peoples vote don't count when they were certified by the State Election Officials as duly and legaly cast is acting like youu can call your coffee free and walk out with it.

     It is our most basic requirement for democracy, - the number one democratic value.  It is way more than some committee or agreement.  Maybe we need party leaders who act like they know that and candidates who respect government by the people.  Or else we need to start the New Democratic Party or the Real Democratic Party with the old pre 2006 democratic values.

    [ Parent ]

    Uncomitted = For no one in particular (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:55:30 AM EST
    Obama took his name off the ballot for his own strategic considerations, so did others.  Their candidacy name wan "Uncommitted" i.e.: no one in particular.

    These candidates named themselves "Nobody in particular". By their own choice they become "Nobodies".  Obama is the only one now still running in the Nobodies category: For the Michigan election the state certified no votes foe him.

    A nobody gets no voted.

    I wish I could get a lottery win without a ticket by saying "I did not buy a ticket, but now I want the prize".  Totally absurd.

     

    [ Parent ]

    They should be seated as "uncommitted" (none / 0) (#92)
    by dianem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:38:18 AM EST
    They can decide who to vote for on their own. That was the plan proposed by the Obama supporter's who ran commerials in MI telling his supporter's to vote "Uncommitted" so that they could send those delegates to the convention for Obama.

    Obama never intended to give up votes in Michigan. He took his name off the ballot as part of a strategic move, then had his people (without his involvement, of course) run a campaign on his behalf.

    [ Parent ]

    Running those commercials was against (none / 0) (#95)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:54:42 AM EST
    the rules and should have caused him to have to forfit those delegates, had he won any. How does he get any delegates from Michigan or Florida after breaking the rules in both states about running ads and pres conference?  I don't understand why he doesn't have to pay for any of this? Is this some ism or guilt thing or do that many leaders think he can do that much for them now or later.  

    When we heard very early from female gov's from Kansas and Arizona and from Sen Macaskill's people that they were all being considered for Vice President I wondered if each knew about the other before endorsing.

     I saw a lot of political people express excitement about getting access to Kerry's 3 million name mailing list early and now Obama's 1.5 million name donor list to ad to it.  Richardson indicated in an interview that he would be pleased to be asked to be VP.

    Now they report tonight that the DNC only raised 4 mil last month, and the suggestion was that was why they had made a deal with Obama to join with them in fundraising for the committee.

    [ Parent ]

    I think creatives prefer chess (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:38:35 AM EST


    CreativeClass litmus: They want to HAVE DONE stuff (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Ellie on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:02:29 AM EST
    ... read the classics, been good at chess and conquered x-treme leisure activities in their yoots.

    Been more places, stood for a cause, dreamed the impossible dream.

    Sucked less ...

    [ Parent ]

    Dawson a "Dean loyalist" (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Cream City on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:41:19 AM EST
    and I know what that means.  Here's more on him, on others, and on next steps after this.  It doesn't sound good. . . .

    Perhaps Dean (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Grace on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:59:35 AM EST
    in his infinite wisdom, will find a way to implement "American Idol" style voting.  You know:  Three phone numbers, two hours to vote, and unlimited text voting at 99 cents per vote (which they could add to the Dem GE coffers).  

    Ryan Seacrest could host it all.  Perhaps Simon would take a bribe to insult Hillary.  

    I might be wrong but I think I did that by (none / 0) (#98)
    by andrys on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:04:56 AM EST
    accident too and I was able to go back and change it to a 5...

    [ Parent ]
    walk a mile in our shoes,org has a great idea... (none / 0) (#167)
    by suzieg on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:22:41 AM EST
    Tell the Democratic National Committee: Don't Walk Away From Our Winning Base! Walk A Mile In Our Shoes.
    Send a pair of shoes to the DNC TODAY deadline May 26th 2008
    Request that the DNC donate the shoes to women's shelters & recycle packaging.
    What You Can Do TODAY:

    1. Mail a pair of your shoes representing your walk in life to the DNC at the address below.

    2. Send Virtual Shoes, an image of a pair of shoes representing your walk in life, to the DNC. OR CLICK HERE, then Cut-n-paste full text in blue box at left, and cut-n-paste the name of your shoe from poll list at left, into the DNC email.

    3. Vote in The First Ever Poll To Let You Speak With Your Shoes! on this Web site so we can tell the media how many of us want to be heard.

    Where / Mailing Address:
    Democratic National Committee , 430 S. Capitol St. SE , Washington, DC 20003

    Talk the Walk - Help us keep count of shoes, to report to the DNC
    Include a printout of this Web page inside your package.
    All shoes must be sent to arrive delivered by no later than May 30th, 2008, Before the May 31st committee meeting. If you are using USPS Priority Mail for example, they should be mailed no later than May 26th.
    All email virtual shoes should be sent to arrive as soon as possible and by midnight May 30th, 2008.

    Email the DNC at: DNC Issues Email Page

    [ Parent ]

    Just Checking (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by delacarpa on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:04:37 AM EST
    My question is after this is all said and done Obama had a chance to do a revote and he nicked it and he himself said, when I go into a state he can own it so why didn't he do a revote. I also think that he ran an ad that beamed into Fla eveyday for 2 weeks and I ask, is that ok.

    Obama had a chance to revote (none / 0) (#42)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:07:57 AM EST
    and declined? Really?

    [ Parent ]
    It was ready and paid for. He said ,"No" (none / 0) (#68)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:40:12 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    From my research...looks like the states nixed it (3.40 / 5) (#69)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:46:22 AM EST
    From NBC's Mark Murray
    First Read has obtained a letter from Florida Democratic Party chair Karen Thurman, in which she says there won't be a re-vote in her state. This seems to mean: 1) that Florida's delegates won't be seated; 2) that they will, via a vote from the credentials committee; or 3) that there will be some sort of compromise (like counting delegates by half).

    I am open to argument, however

    [ Parent ]

    now i see why you have accumulated (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:52:43 AM EST
    so many 1 ratings.

    Why should Florida re-vote? Hillary won overwhelmingly with all names on the ballot. Edwards even picked up his 14 percent.

    You didn't even address Michigan.

    [ Parent ]

    Try to keep up, Chuck. (3.66 / 3) (#79)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:08:51 AM EST
    The assertion was that Obama "nixed it" we weren't talking about WHY they should or should not revote.

    So, I went into google and tried to find articles about that.

    I only found articles saying a) that Obama did not think MI and FLA would go for it and b) that FLA flatly refused.

    My mind is not made up, I am trying to figure out the truth. If you have other articles that say otherwise, I will read them.

    Sorry if my open mind offends you so. Just because I haven't been following this as closely as some, does not mean I should just believe everyone's assertions without question.

    [ Parent ]

    Here is an explanation of the process (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:28:58 AM EST
    Here

    In your googling look at Michigan Legislature decides not to revote.
    The dems in the legislature who support Hillary and democracy, wanted a revote or to count the original as voted.  The Repubs wanted no revote.  First they said it would cost too much. John Corzine and James Carville and others put up the money to pay the state back. The Repubs thought they could win MI in the fall if the voters were mad at the dems.  The wanted no revote.  Added to the Obama supporting dems that was enough to vote down the revote.  The state rep finally said that they would support it if both candidated supported. Obama said he would only support a 50/50 split.  He figured Hillary would lose the nomination and once he had it and they didin't matter he would look gracious and agree to seat them.  That is one reason he is so eager to be seen as the nominee before the vote.  He has put forward several porposals for them to look like they counted but they involved everybody agreeing ahead of time that he is the nominee.  Check it out.  In Florida the Republicans controled the legislature.

     There was a bill many had fought for fo 8 years to require a paper trail on voting machines.  The repubs attached a too early primary date of Jan 29 to the bill.  Only one  member of the Fl delegation was for it.  But the Repubs hoped to make gains in Nov because people would be mad at dems.  There were 3 other states that brok the rules and did not get punished.  This is part of the problem of punishing the voters of MI and FL.  They did nothing wrong.

    [ Parent ]

    Obamm nixed it (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:32:31 AM EST
    Covered extensively here.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's supporters in the states... (none / 0) (#93)
    by dianem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:41:11 AM EST
    ...nixed the votes. They didn't want revotes because Clinton was way ahead in the polls.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama WAS the last decider on Michigan when (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by andrys on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:07:51 AM EST
    the others decided to go ahead on a revote.

    They waited for him -- the guy who said he would go along
    with what the party wanted.  He then said No.

      It wasn't perfect enough for him.  Those who had decided to vote for Repubs in the primary couldn't be in the re-vote.

      Like his 'present' votes for things not 100% excellent, his decisions tend to be very convenient.

      Yes, this man will be a real unifier.

    [ Parent ]

    Revotes were something Obama was (none / 0) (#112)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:49:01 AM EST
    Going to approve and then something happened?

    Anyone know what happened and why Obama then decided against revotes?

    [ Parent ]

    Because (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:06:00 AM EST
    He wanted to allow those supporters of his who (following Kos' advice) went and voted in the Republican primary to be able to also vote for him in the re-do Democratic primary.  You can't vote in both parties' primaries in the same year, so he nixed a revote idea.

    [ Parent ]
    The ad was a national ad buy (none / 0) (#46)
    by Get 27 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:12:31 AM EST
    Those ads can't be pulled in local markets. The states didn't want to pay for a revote. Obama and Clinton could have raised the money to do a revote, but why would he want to do that? Furthermore, in current polls, Obama beats Clinton in Michigan.

    [ Parent ]
    He also beamed ads from neighboring (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:03:43 AM EST
    state deep into Florida for a couple of weeks before the vote.  He later said it was unavoidable to keep the ads for neighboring primaries from entering Florida, even though they continued to run AFTER the neighboring primary had ended.  f

    In the mighty "agreement" about FL and MI, if someone ran ads they were to forfit any delegates they won to the other candidates.

    The same was to happen if they held press conferences.  They were allowed to enter the states for fund raising.  Obama went to Florida and held a press conference with reporters asking a dozen or so questions.  

    That is how many delegates he should forfit how many times?  But Hillary is not charging him, I guess because he is getting away with it again.  So much for the mighty rules.  People in the msm know this stuff but almost nobody will report it.

    [ Parent ]

    What delegates? (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by minordomo on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:04:53 AM EST
    In the mighty "agreement" about FL and MI, if someone ran ads they were to forfit any delegates they won to the other candidates.

    The same was to happen if they held press conferences.

    The delegates that were already stripped 100%? Those delegates?

    [ Parent ]

    Obama beats Clinton in current MI polls? (3.00 / 0) (#53)
    by Alec82 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:21:08 AM EST
    I wouldn't be surprised, I just haven't seen any MI polls. I always suspected she would not be as strong in a contested race.

    [ Parent ]
    Michigan (none / 0) (#60)
    by ibextati on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:26:52 AM EST
    some people think MI is like PA or OH. But Mi is more like wisconsine with much larger African American voters. In a fair election Obama can beat Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    Cite for that poll? (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:31:28 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I agree... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Alec82 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:31:34 AM EST
    ...and I checked. Rasmussen indicated that a fair revote would be much closer back in March.  Not at all surprising, and it makes the cry to count MI as is all the more desperate.

    [ Parent ]
    He should have let them vote again! (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:09:03 AM EST
    When the legislature was ready to vote, the Obama supporting Dems combined with the Repubs in the Legislature and nixed it. How, Democrats should want to know, does a candidate get to cancel a vote because he is afraid he will lose it.

      When he took his name off the ballot he was only polling 16-19% but after the Black community started the bloc vote he could have done well.  We should be brave enough to let the people vote and count them.  Never kknow how it will go.  Wish he would do that with the superdelegates - let them vote in August.

    [ Parent ]

    THE ROOLZ!!! (none / 0) (#145)
    by arky on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:03:33 AM EST
    Doesn't matter if it was a national ad. It showed in Florida and that is against the ROOLZ! Roolz is Roolz, ya know.
    And I don't buy the assertion that those ads couldn't have been blocked in Florida. Curious that they ran the week before Florida voted. Concidence? Not on your life!

    [ Parent ]
    So as per the roolz (none / 0) (#146)
    by Serene1 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:07:58 AM EST
    shouldn't Obama be penalized in some way for releasing an ad there.

    [ Parent ]
    Cite for those polls please?t (none / 0) (#189)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:30:46 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Somehow Edwards and Clinton managed... (none / 0) (#207)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:57:31 AM EST
    to not run ads in FL, but Obama didn't.

    His excuse that 'big business forced me into it' is not very compelling, or very presidential either. Some leader.

    [ Parent ]

    "He can own it" what state has he (none / 0) (#186)
    by zfran on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:29:09 AM EST
    owned, WV, PA, TX, OH, KY etc.

    [ Parent ]
    I have a sinking feeling that the DNC (5.00 / 7) (#76)
    by michellemarie on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:02:03 AM EST
    from the very beginning, was in Obama's pocket. Why were Iowa, NH, and SC allowed to have early primaries, in contravention of the laws, without suffering any penalty? (Mind you, Obama had been cultivating Iowa for months and SC had a large population of AAs). These states had a pledged delegate total of 141. Michigan and Florida, admittedly, held their primaries earlier than what was allowed by the rules. The punishment according to the DNC rules was to strip violators of automatic delegates and have the pledged delegates count for half. What did Dean and Brazille decide? Something completely unprecedented and something that cannot find justification from the rules. Michigan and Florida were completely stripped of all convention priveleges. To the innocent voter, it appeared as though Dean wanted to assert himself as a capable chairman by handing down this unusual penalty. Upon further examination, could the nullification of the MI and FL primaries be an effort to rob Clinton of an early lead in delegates and momentum?

    MI: No one knows who Obama is. State is undoubtedly going to Clinton, as she is popular here, esp. among the AAs. Obama removes his name from the ballot (though this was not required) and encourages Edwards to do the same in order to delegitimize the results (did Obama and Axelrod plan to later claim all of the uncommitted vote?). FL: Clinton is hugely popular, with the lg elderly and Hispanic population. Obama breaks the rules by running ads here, but does not take his name off the ballot. These two states had a combined pledged delegate total of 313.

    Iowa went for Obama, in line with DNC wishes. NH? Clinton pulls an upset. Obamaites get nervous-- SC is on the horizon and he needs to win to remain viable. Solution? Painting the Clintons fraudulently as racists (as evidenced by the leaked SC memo). In a normal world, these claims would not have held water, because Hillary Clinton has fought for the AA community, and Bill is loved by many AAs. However, these claims gained credibility as Donna Brazille (DNC) expressed her anger towards Bill's "fairytale" comments and James Clyburn stoked the fire. The only way Obama has his lead today stems from the fact that he had to cast Clinton as a racist to convince the AA community to vote in ungodly precentages for him, delivering his SC victory (and GA, NC, VA, MD, etc).

    I realize this is a conspiracy theory, but it does have some validity, no?
    Hillary Clinton was never supposed to win. The Dnc had annointed Obama before the primary process had even started. Dean is not scared about the fallout from not counting MI and FL, this was the plan.

    This is why MI and FL will not be counted. Because Donna Brazille sits on the rules committee.

    Does anyone else feel the same?

    It doesn't matter if they are counted now (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Edgar08 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:06:48 AM EST
    The answer is the last sentence in your first paragraph.

    FL and MI were never going to count as long counting them meant impacting the election process.

    In short.  Stolen election.

    Obama's a fraud.


    [ Parent ]

    I don't envy people (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by madamab on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:30:51 AM EST
    who are trying to defend Obama's position.

    He is FOR disenfranchising Florida and Michigan's voters.

    Screaming "Teh Roolz!" as a very, very weak defense doesn't get you much traction in the real world - it only works with the die-hard True Believers in His Greatness.

    I think a lot of people will be paying attention to what comes out of these politicians' mouths on May 31st. And if all the voters' votes aren't counted because otherwise Obama can't win, well...there go another large group of electoral votes in November.

    Are we worried yet?

    [ Parent ]

    Have you looked at the figures? (none / 0) (#209)
    by Lupin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:58:02 AM EST
    You do realize that Obama wins either way?

    FL as is plus even a minority of MI is enough to clinch the nomination.

    Check Demconwatch.

    There are several arguments to be made for Sen. Clinton, but that is not one of them.

    [ Parent ]

    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Lupin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:52:16 AM EST
    I don't think it's real either.

    At the onset, the feeling was that the DNC was in the Clintons' pocket and Sen. Clinton would be an unstoppable juggernaut. (And indeed she has been very impressive.)

    Speaking as an Edwards supporter, we felt somewhat victimized by the Media/DNC/Clintons (depending), and certainly Edwards' campaign never really took off, I feel, in part because of the Clintons' overwhelming early control.

    I'm not angry or anything, but I don't think there was any conspiracy; Sen. Clinton has in fact led a magnificent campaign, and if she loses, it will be by a very small percentage (no matter what metric is used).

    I hardly see her as a victim.

    [ Parent ]

    I can't tell you (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by magisterludi on Thu May 22, 2008 at 06:08:03 AM EST
    how many people I've chatted with (neighbors, grocery clerks, friends from out of state, etc.) who think it's pretty ding-dang obvious something fishy is going on in the DNC.

    I really think the evidence speaks for itself. Granted, a lot is circumstantial and plausible deniability is rampant (along with triangulation and masterful yet transparent parsing) but the intent is there, big as day.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes people do feel the same (1.00 / 1) (#85)
    by coigue on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:26:34 AM EST
    but I do not think it is real.

    Both candidates have their people involved in the rules committee, and I feel it is a mistake to underestimate the Clinton's power in the party.

    From where I sit, both candidates are trying to claim victimhood here and both are playing to get political advantage.

    [ Parent ]

    If Obama wins (none / 0) (#214)
    by samanthasmom on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:11:10 AM EST
    the Democratic nomination, he will give his acceptance speech on the 45th anniversary of MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech.  Add that to your conspiracy theory.

    [ Parent ]
    DNC Rules (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by bmc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:20:33 AM EST
    The more I think about the Florida/Michigan issue, the more furious I get. Fact: The RBC ignored the fact that Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina also violated Rule 11.A. Fact: The RBC ignored Rule 20C1a which calls for a 50% sanction.

    Called on their feckess disregard of their own rules, now, the RBC want to impose a resolution--after Obama's campaign stalled and obstructed a revote--which provides delegates to Obama that he did not earn in Michigan because he CHOSE to take himself off the ballot voluntarily to pander to Iowa and New Hampshire [which also violated the rules but were not punished for doing so]. And, they want to ignore the fact that Obama violated the pledge in Florida by running ads and doing a press conference, and still give him delegates he should have "stripped" from him because of it.

    Can there be ANY DOUBT whatsoever that Howard Dean has conspired to turn the entire Democratic primary process into a fraudulent, reckless and wanton disregard for the Democratic Party and its voters? Not in my mind.

    I might have been able to, at one point, find a way to see this process as fair--but only if Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina had also been sanctioned along with Florida and Michigan; or if the RBC had sanctioned according to the rules, which stipulate a 50% punishment. Or if the party had imposed a revote ruling.

    But this entire debacle has undermined any faith I had in the Democratic Party as the party of justice, civil rights and equality.

    Moreover, to install a nominee on the basis of rules fraud and ignore the clear fact that red-state caucuses of a few thousands of voters do not represent the will of the Democratic voters, while disenfranchising the officially recorded votes of Democratic Party voters in Florida and Michigan is a breathtaking--and brazen--breach of both the spirit and the letter of the rules of the DNC.

    Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina violated the rules, but were not punished for it--and the popular vote in South Carolina and New Hampshire are counted in the official tally. This is a stunning hypocrisy.

    DNC Delegate Selection Rule 11A [PDF], states the following:

    No meetings, caucuses, conventions or primaries which constitute the first determining stage in the presidential nomination process (the date of the primary in primary states, and the date of the first tier caucus in caucus states) may be held prior to the first Tuesday in February or after the second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that the Iowa precinct caucuses may be held no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the Nevada first-tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 17 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the New Hampshire primary may be held no earlier than 14 days before the first Tuesday in February; and that the South Carolina primary may be held no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February. In no instance may a state which scheduled delegate selection procedures on or between the first Tuesday in February and the second Tuesday in June 1984 move out of compliance with the provisions of this rule.

    Thus, the rules were not only broken by Florida and Michigan, but also by Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. Iowa held their caucus on January 3, 2008 instead of January 14. New Hampshire held their primary on January 8, 2008 instead of January 22. South Carolina held their primary on January 26, 2008 instead of January 29.

    The penalty for violating Rule 11A, according to DNC Delegate Selection Rule 20C1a [PDF], states:

    In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state's delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.

    According to Rule 20C1a, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Michigan, and Florida should have had their delegates reduced by 50%. However, Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina were not penalized at all to protect their first-in-the-nation status, while Michigan and Florida were stripped of all their delegates. Thus, the DNC is applying the rules arbitrarily.

    More Rules:

    Michigan:
    Refer to the DNC Delegate Selection Rules, specifically Rule 13.A. "Fair Reflection of Presidential Preference."

    Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters.

    Obama did not reach the 15% threshhold to receive delegates in Michigan. Awarding him delegates would not reflect the legal and certified vote.

    Also see Rule 20.C.2. This addresses what happens when delegates are awarded in violation of Rule 13.

    Florida:
    Rule 20.C.1.b. of the Delegate Selection Rules.
    "A Presidential candidate who campaigns in a state in violation of the timing provisions of the rules,... may NOT receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state."

    We all know that Obama had TV ads running in Florida and that he also held a press conference there. Both of those activities violate Rule 20.C.1.b.

    In what universe does the Democratic Party think Barack Obama will have any legitimacy--not to mention the Democratic Party itself--after such blatant violations of the DNC rules, and the RBC?
    Certainly not with me; and I suspect, not with many other long-time party activists.


    What the heck... (none / 0) (#183)
    by mike in dc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:25:11 AM EST
    ...do you call Clinton's grandstanding about Florida the weekend before the vote?
    How was that not campaigning for votes there?

    Obama ran one national ad that happened to air in Florida, and which they requested not air there.
    One ad.  
    Clinton, if I remember correctly, attended private fundraisers in Florida.  Those fundraisers were reported in the Florida press.

    By your low bar for what constitutes "campaigning in the state", they both should be barred from receiving delegates there.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:27:34 AM EST
    held fundraisers there too. I don't think fundraisers were against the rules. He did speak to the press after one fundraiser which was a breach of the pledge.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you have a specific cite... (none / 0) (#185)
    by mike in dc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:28:49 AM EST
    ...to the DNC bylaws for that one?

    [ Parent ]
    Clinton spoke to the press... (none / 0) (#187)
    by mike in dc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:29:24 AM EST
    ...after arriving in Florida for fundraisers as well.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#196)
    by cmugirl on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:40:32 AM EST
    Any cites?  I mean, if true, the press would be jumping all over this, don't you think. I'm not accusing or anything - just haven't seen this, but I have seen Craig Crawford write about Obama breaking the rules in FL.

    BTW - fundraising was specifically allowed.  All the candidates had fundraisers in both states.

    [ Parent ]

    Check news reports... (none / 0) (#203)
    by mike in dc on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:52:37 AM EST
    ...from 1/28/08.  She made a few comments to reporters upon exiting the plane in Florida.  She made comments about wanting Florida to count before the plane left for Florida, as well.

    It's a bit of sophistry to claim she didn't campaign there.

    [ Parent ]

    The bottom line is that the punishment (none / 0) (#194)
    by Exeter on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:32:57 AM EST
    ...as stated by committee members such as Donnie Fowler who said "no one at this table believes that the delegates from Florida and Michigan will be absent from the convention," "... was to be that candidates would not campaign in Florida and Michigan. That punishment has happened. Time to seat the delegates!


    [ Parent ]
    One would think that everyone attending (none / 0) (#199)
    by zfran on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:47:24 AM EST
    the meeting on 5/31 knows this stuff? Anyone think they'll adhere to these rules, as so many have been broken or ignored. "We The People" have certainly been ignored!!

    [ Parent ]
    be real (none / 0) (#212)
    by Lupin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:04:48 AM EST
    I'm sure our host Jeralyn will explain to you that is laws, statutes, etc. were all clear cut, and required no interpretations, there would be no need for courts.

    The most likely scenario is that FL will be seated  probably as is and MI will be and if you look at the numbers, none of this makes a difference because Obama still clinches it.

    [ Parent ]

    Here is McAuliffe in 2004 when Michigan tried to (2.60 / 5) (#63)
    by ibextati on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:33:35 AM EST
    move their primary. An exchange between McAuliffe and Carl Levin from Terry's book..

    I'm going outside the primary window," [Michigan Sen. Carl Levin] told me definitively.

    "If I allow you to do that, the whole system collapses," I said. "We will have chaos. I let you make your case to the DNC, and we voted unanimously and you lost."

    He kept insisting that they were going to move up Michigan on their own, even though if they did that, they would lose half their delegates. By that point Carl and I were leaning toward each other over a table in the middle of the room, shouting and dropping the occasional expletive.

    "You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

    "Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

    We glared at each other some more, but there was nothing much left to say. I was holding all the cards and Levin knew it.


    You get a 1 (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by boredmpa on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:01:46 AM EST
    Because it's the second time I've seen that red herring today and your comment history is full of chattering (and that's being polite). So this time I'm going to respond in all caps in the hopes that all the talking points people that showed up in the past week read it.

    VOTERS DONT CARE ABOUT DEM PARTY POLITICS, THEY  CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY--WHERE VOTES COUNT. STRIPPING DELEGATES OR TAKING NAMES OFF THE BALLOT TO PLAY GAMES IS BLATANTLY ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

    Now please take your talking point and go away.  It's not only insulting to voters and reader intelligence, it's p